← Home ← Back to /vrpg/

Thread 3778929

221 posts 62 images /vrpg/
Anonymous No.3778929 [Report] >>3778930 >>3778931 >>3778967 >>3779065 >>3779370 >>3779463 >>3779550 >>3780124 >>3780239 >>3781049 >>3781065 >>3781343 >>3783438 >>3783779 >>3784661 >>3786382 >>3787597 >>3795567 >>3801453 >>3805132 >>3817138 >>3825651
/vrpg/-approved roguelikes
What're you're favorites
Anonymous No.3778930 [Report] >>3778935 >>3779508 >>3780239
>>3778929 (OP)
coward
Anonymous No.3778931 [Report] >>3778934 >>3778935 >>3800131
>>3778929 (OP)
I hate all roguelikes. The damage they've caused to gaming as a whole is both immense and irreversible.
Anonymous No.3778934 [Report] >>3778946 >>3778976 >>3778989
>>3778931
roguelites aren't roguelikes
Anonymous No.3778935 [Report] >>3778939 >>3778941 >>3778946
>>3778930
W-what ...?
>>3778931
You're probably thinking of roguelites
Anonymous No.3778939 [Report] >>3778948
>>3778935
show you're dick first before asking others to show theirs.
it's the polite thing to do.
Anonymous No.3778941 [Report] >>3778947 >>3778948
>>3778935
>roguelites
This isn’t a thing. Stop trying to make it a thing.
Anonymous No.3778946 [Report] >>3778958 >>3779583
>>3778934
>>3778935
Irrefutable counterpoint: the existence of rogueLITES is predicated on rogueLIKES.
Anonymous No.3778947 [Report] >>3778965 >>3779006 >>3781117 >>3785770 >>3790109 >>3790603
>>3778941
*cracks knuckles*
okay, let us begin:
define roguelike.
Anonymous No.3778948 [Report]
>>3778939
I'm still a relative noob to the genre, that's mainly why I asked. My favorites are CDDA, Zorbus and Qud
>>3778941
I understand it can be seen as pedantic, but there's a real difference between roguelikes and roguelites. I enjoy both genres, but it's a bitch to search for traditional roguelikes because of the term misusage
Anonymous No.3778958 [Report]
>>3778946
specious derivation is not causation to begin with, and the coining of the roguelite moniker is mostly based on retards using "roguelike" as a marketing term regardless of a game's actual qualifications. permadeath and procedural generation aren't intrinsically roguelike innovations.
binding of isaac is not an rpg.
Anonymous No.3778965 [Report] >>3779013 >>3826572
>>3778947
I'll refer you to the Berlin Interpretation
Anonymous No.3778967 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
Powder and Angband have neat ports for 3DS, so these are the ones I'm playing the most. Brogue is also neat.
I tried to get into Nethack, but I feel like the complexity of it filtered me a bit too much.
Anonymous No.3778976 [Report] >>3778981 >>3782360
>>3778934
>roguelites aren't roguelikes
There are almost zero roguelikes.
Most of them are roguelites because they aren't like the game rogue at all.
Anonymous No.3778981 [Report] >>3779014
>>3778976
yep, this is a sequence of words.
Anonymous No.3778989 [Report] >>3779014 >>3781117 >>3782360
>>3778934
Still don't get either genre. Does diablo have elements of roguelike or - lites?
Anonymous No.3779006 [Report] >>3779013 >>3790603
>>3778947
procgen, permadeath, turn-based, no meta-progression
lites break one or two of those rules, usually the later two
Anonymous No.3779013 [Report] >>3779070 >>3816281
>>3779006
>procgen
Really? So I got that right. Why is it needed? So that the same maps can be re-used?
>>3778965
Huh?
Anonymous No.3779014 [Report] >>3779034 >>3779088 >>3785825 >>3786647
>>3778981
Do you even know what rogue is?
There are not a lot of actual roguelikes. No, shit like Hades, Dead Cells or whatever are not roguelikes.

>>3778989
A roguelike is a game very similar to rogue, which is basically a grid based dungeon crawler where enemies when you do and you can level up and uses random levels. Except it also has permadeath.
Pictured is the Atari version, which is not the original.
Anonymous No.3779034 [Report]
>>3779014
Thank you very much. Maybe I should play one to get the appeal. I like d2, after all.
>...
Come to think of it, it's a good design principle. I'm inclined to say it's the very essence of gaming. No wonder they are so popular.
Anonymous No.3779065 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
adom because it feels like an epic quest
Anonymous No.3779070 [Report]
>>3779013
>Why is it needed? So that the same maps can be re-used?
Roguelikes are about learning the system, not memorizing the levels.
Also practically, permadeath with no randomization is boring on repeated attempts.
Anonymous No.3779088 [Report]
>>3779014
>There are not a lot of actual roguelikes
there are quite a few.
Anonymous No.3779368 [Report]
IVAN (Iter Vehemens ad Necem)
and older versions of Stone Soup.
Haven't played either in a decade.
Anonymous No.3779370 [Report] >>3779457
>>3778929 (OP)
Roguelikes aren't RPGs
Anonymous No.3779372 [Report] >>3779457 >>3807917
are non-dungeon crawler roguelikes counted?
Anonymous No.3779398 [Report] >>3781213 >>3811725
Finally! A good question! I would suggest that you stay with the more traditional ones and grind through them. They are refreshing given the state of gaming, and particularly "roguelikes" nowadays.
Start with the original rogue, you'll find a free, tiled, and more accessible version here:
https://oryxdesignlab.itch.io/classic-rogue
Then I'd say give Angband a shot. It's more about delving and adventuring for a bit, then returning to the town to rest/recover. Keep doing this until you're godlike and can defeat the baddie at the bottom of the dungeon:
https://rephial.org/
Then give Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup a shot. This one's more about exploring a vast dungeon to find orbs. Maybe the most accessible:
https://crawl.develz.org/
And lastly, you can't go wrong with Nethack, although it's more about following a process. If you do the right thing at the right time in the right way, you won't be filtered.
https://www.nethack.org/
A lot of the haters here are right. Hipster "roguelikes" and "roguelites" have created a whole generation of indie proc-gen slop that can't die soon enough. But these old-school neckbeard games from the before time are pure SOVL.
A good hint, if you have to pay for it like a normal game, it's probably shit.
Anonymous No.3779457 [Report] >>3819120
>>3779370
What are some examples of traditional roguelikes that aren't RPGs? Because they're often the closest thing to a pen and paper RPG you can get
>>3779372
Hell yeah. One of my favorites is CDDA
Anonymous No.3779463 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
ADOM
It's fun
Anonymous No.3779467 [Report] >>3801991 >>3824670 >>3826295
Shit I've played and enjoyed. Haven't gone looking for what's new in a while.
Infra Arcana
Demon
SIl-Q
Frogcomposband
DCSS
Nethack
Incursion
Brogue
The Ground Gives Way
ADOM
Cogmind

Roguelike adjacents:
CDDA Bright Nights preferred
Elona both + and omake overhaul
UnReal World
Liberal Crime Squad
Castle of the Winds
Anonymous No.3779508 [Report] >>3779710
>>3778930
this guy responds to every thread where anons ask for the opinions of others. it pisses him off to the point he's bursting a vein. I can't wait to start another thread and ask for opinions without giving mine. uggh I think I'll do it right now feels so good
Anonymous No.3779550 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
Incursion D20 Halls of the Goblin King
Anonymous No.3779583 [Report]
>>3778946
Not at all, it's a co-opted term. Every shitty "roguelite" would've come into existence all the same, just under a different name. Binding of isaac would've just been called the twin stick shooter that it is.
Anonymous No.3779710 [Report]
>>3779508
been called out before, huh?
Anonymous No.3780124 [Report] >>3780378
>>3778929 (OP)
CDDA is the best videogame of all time if you have autism
Anonymous No.3780239 [Report] >>3780277
>>3778930
fpbp

>>3778929 (OP)
>/vrpg/-approved
kys npc trash
kek even my captcha knows you're shit
Anonymous No.3780277 [Report] >>3780278
>>3780239
Yeah, bro, npcs love roguelikes and jank
Anonymous No.3780278 [Report] >>3780285
>>3780277
kys npc trash
Anonymous No.3780285 [Report]
>>3780278
I don't understand your anger or your argument. Do you just not like roguelikes?
Anonymous No.3780378 [Report] >>3780396
>>3780124
I want to play on the steam deck, but after not having played in a few years, the learning curve is going to be a fucking wall
Anonymous No.3780396 [Report] >>3780405
>>3780378
>steam deck
lmao

just play bright nights
Anonymous No.3780405 [Report] >>3781004
>>3780396
Doesn't bright nights use the same control scheme? That's going to be the biggest hump to get over
Anonymous No.3781004 [Report] >>3781011
>>3780405
well, it's a computer game, play it on a real computer. i was more referring to the learning curve being easier for someone who's been away.
Anonymous No.3781011 [Report]
>>3781004
Yeah, it's obviously ideal to play on mkb, but I wanna be comfy. Relearning the keys and how to do everything is gonna be a bitch regardless, but fuck if CDDA doesn't suck you in after that hump
Anonymous No.3781049 [Report] >>3781118
>>3778929 (OP)
Steamband, but the dev disappeared before really completing it. and no graphical UI.
https://wiki.angband.live/index.php/Steamband

ZAngband, not the easiest but a deep game with lot of mostly useless classes/races to play with and lot of overworld places and subquests to do.
https://wiki.angband.live/index.php/ZAngband

DOOMRL, a classick. and also an actual DOOM WAD which turns DOOM into a roguelike with classes and stuff.
https://drl.chaosforge.org/wiki/DoomRL_Wiki
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=37044
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v9TUUVI5Lo

also Moraff's World is kino.
Anonymous No.3781065 [Report] >>3781078
>>3778929 (OP)
My favourite is Zorbus, but I also quite like IVAN
Anonymous No.3781078 [Report] >>3781165
>>3781065
I keep getting my shit pushed in on Zorbus. Furthest I've made it to is level 3. Do you go magic or melee? And is it viable without companions?
Anonymous No.3781117 [Report] >>3782360 >>3782747 >>3827000
>>3778947
Refer to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-13LUfagQhY
>b-but I don't want to watch a 15 minute youtube video from a mentally ill man!
Well, his definition boils down to
>top-down
>grid-based
>turn-based
>with stats and items
>and procedural generation
He reasons that this covers all games classically considered roguelikes, and excludes games that are obviously not roguelikes, and then spends some time justifying the omission of permadeath from his requirements.

>>3778989
Diablo is generally not considered a rogulike, since it's realtime (and past the first game, doesn't really have a meaningful tile grid). Other than that, it would qualify.
The original Diablo actually started development as a roguelike game. Making it realtime was a demand from the publisher.
Anonymous No.3781118 [Report] >>3781148
>>3781049
Steamband felt too janky for me UI-wise. I play a lot of literally incomplete roguelikes (early access) but the only time I've really "felt" the fact I'm not playing a finished game is in Steamband. The dev's actually still around and kicking on the internet (though doing very little game dev stuff), I'm pretty sure she just abandoned it years ago and moved on.
Have you Tried FrogComPosband? From what I recall, it has the most player options of all the *band variants. It's quite fun.
Anonymous No.3781148 [Report] >>3781201 >>3783001 >>3783001
>>3781118
>FrogComPosband?
the thing that adds it lots of stuff from other angbands like Zangband? well, no. i experimented with lots of angbands and never beating them. then i played Zangband and thought "this is enough stuff for me" and most of the angbands were disappointing anyway so i stopped looking out for more.
Anonymous No.3781165 [Report]
>>3781078
The easiest way to beat Zorbus is going magic, and the second easiest way is to go hybrid melee/spirit (to maximise companions). Pick the gnome wizard preset class and get summon animals as soon as you can, I guarantee you'll get past the third floor.
Anonymous No.3781201 [Report]
>>3781148
>the thing that adds it lots of stuff from other angbands like Zangband?
Yeah, that's it.
> thought "this is enough stuff for me" and most of the angbands were disappointing anyway so i stopped looking out for more.
Fair enough, character options are what keep me coming back to roguelikes so that's how I got sold on Frog. I've never actually played any other variants than it and Steamband.
Anonymous No.3781213 [Report]
>>3779398
Congratulations! This is by far my favorite post on this thread.

Very well said, next time someone asks what's the difference between a roguelike and roguelite, I'll just show them a screenshot of this.
Anonymous No.3781343 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
Organ Trail is the goat
Anonymous No.3781424 [Report]
stone soup and castle of the winds have always been favorites of mine
Anonymous No.3782193 [Report]
Unironically Kinky Dungeon. 100% a fetish game but has some surprisingly in-depth systems and character builds. Also very little metaprogression besides a few negative starting perks that you can take that are related to certain bosses and areas.
Anonymous No.3782197 [Report]
lol, that rec got purged quick. looked like shit anyway.
Anonymous No.3782360 [Report] >>3782369 >>3782714
>>3778976
>There are almost zero roguelikes.

There are shit tons of real roguelikes, but they are mostly independent games.

>>3778989
>>3781117
Diablo was developed as a traditional roguelike but real time instead of turn based. It's one of the first roguelites.

My favorite roguelike is Powder, in no small part because it's one of the most like-Rogue of the roguelikes out there and Rogue itself was one of my favorite games as a kid.
Anonymous No.3782369 [Report] >>3782403
>>3782360
do you recommend the GBA version at all?
Anonymous No.3782403 [Report]
>>3782369
Yes, it's pretty much the same as other versions and what it was originally made for. I prefer playing it on a PSP just because there are a couple more buttons to map actions to but that's hardly necessary at all.
Anonymous No.3782714 [Report] >>3785366
>>3782360
Man of taste. Any other games you recommend regardless of genre?
Anonymous No.3782747 [Report]
>>3781117
SIMUL-turn based
Anonymous No.3783001 [Report]
>>3781148
>>3781148
That and i got addicted to Diablo 2 for years....
Anonymous No.3783438 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
Not my favorite and not fully a roguelike, but Quasimorph is bretty gud
Anonymous No.3783673 [Report] >>3783749
*THUNKTHUNKTHUNK*
*THUNKTHUNKTHUNK*
HUH!
Anonymous No.3783749 [Report] >>3783785
>>3783673
Which one is this? and how is it
Anonymous No.3783779 [Report] >>3783804 >>3785012 >>3788683
>>3778929 (OP)
I used to like Cataclysm when it was just Cataclysm. The single key to access everything made it accessible. Now everything is too tedious - you have to manage pocket storage volume lol. Fuck that.

Pixel Dungeon was good until they added item breaking.

The only one I still play is Azure Dreams, aka Pokemon Roguelike.
Anonymous No.3783785 [Report] >>3784633 >>3788683
>>3783749
That's Shiren the Wanderer. It's decent, but due to limitations of the Super Famicom hardware it was made for originally It's also kind of limited. Also unlike traditional roguelikes it has a warehouse for storing items between runs which skews the difficulty curve. Blind/traditional runs where you start with nothing are heavily bassed on the weather which affects things. Certain weather predictions before you start are impossible to win with etc.

That said, it can be a good intro series for some people.
Anonymous No.3783804 [Report] >>3783942
>>3783779
>you have to manage pocket storage volume lol.
there's a fork that does away with some of the pseudo-simulationist tedium, it's called bright nights
Anonymous No.3783942 [Report]
>>3783804
>there's a fork that does away with some of the pseudo-simulationist tedium, it's called bright nights
Thanks, I'll look into it.
Anonymous No.3784633 [Report] >>3785366
>>3783785
In my experience people who like Mystery Dungeon games don't usually enjoy playing real roguelikes.
Anonymous No.3784660 [Report] >>3784715
Man I haven't played a proper roguelike in like 12 years, should I still enter threads like this? Has anything new happened since Crawl?
Anonymous No.3784661 [Report] >>3784715 >>3785327
>>3778929 (OP)
This is like blaming italians for all the ills jews and muds has wrought upon the world.
Anonymous No.3784715 [Report]
>>3784660
Biggest recent full release was Caves of Qud
>>3784661
Back to your containment general
Anonymous No.3785012 [Report] >>3785327
>>3783779
in teh shattered branch only throwing weapons break, which is fine. if i want a physical ranged character i just pick the huntress anyway, her bow is just straight up better than picking up trash to throw even disregarding breaking.
Anonymous No.3785327 [Report] >>3785507
>>3784661
>This is like blaming italians for all the ills jews and muds has wrought upon the world.
Technically they were party to a certain crucifixion that led to a certain slave morality religion, so...

>>3785012
Iirc the last version of vanilla PD has equipment durability.
Anonymous No.3785366 [Report] >>3785367
>>3782714
This may be an odd list of recommendations, most of the games I love aren't super popular.

Ecco the Dolphin:
Since it came out I have loved this game and it's a constant go-to zen relaxation experience for me at this point. It's unlike pretty much any other games of the era, the control scheme is odd and most of the gameplay revolves around having to be very calm and patient to do precise things with it's stiff controls all the while there is a time pressure and you are slowly drowning the entire time. I understand why it was never popular in the way Mario or Sonic were, but what others tend to list as flaws are the reason I love it while Mario and Sonic bore me to tears.

Monster Hunter 1
The original Monster Hunter is easily one of my favorite games of all time. I maxed the clock at 999.99 hours a good year or more before I stopped playing it pretty much daily. The series as a whole up to World and Rise was wonderful in my opinion, but the first game had both a unique and wonderful control scheme once you learned how to utilize it and a certain balance where even though there was tons of weapons and armor to hunt for, you could also pull out a joke weapon like the Chef Knife and still win a major battle if you were on your game. Other than that, the PSP entries are generally a low point in my opinion with the games starting to get better again with 3 and culminating in Generations and Generations Ultimate being in my opinion the overall top of the series.

Bangai-O
Easily my favorite Treasure game, a wonderful risk vs reward fest of chaotic fun.

Tempest X / 2000
I adore pretty much any version of Tempest, it's so fast and slick, not quite a rail shooter but somehow better than them all. The X, 2000 and other versions that layer trippy visuals on top of it all really makes the whole thing shine.

>>3784633
That's my experience as well, they are superficially similar but the MD format is quite different from real roguelikes.
Anonymous No.3785367 [Report]
>>3785366
>Cont

Lunar Eternal Blue: original Sega CD US release
I figure there's not much point mentioning RPGs here like Etrian as everyone is probably familiar with them. Lunar 2 has had several re-makes and releases though and I somewhat controversially think the original US release is the best of them all. For starters, the Saturn/PS1 remake is terrible in too many ways compared to the original to go into here so the Sega CD version is always the go-to. But the US release also has a fairly significant difficulty hike over the Japanese original which I think makes the game far better. It's one of the few RPGs that hits perfect difficulty in my books which is that by exploring each area or dungeon you come to fully, but not stopping to grind, the boss at the end will be very difficult and drain most of your resources but you will win by the skin of your teeth. From start to finish it's a consistent challenge but always a possible one.

Puyo Puyo / Puyo vs Tetris
Regular Puyo Puyo is my favorite puzzler there is. Not much to talk about or recommend, if you like the genre you've probably played it and have your own opinion. Tetris vs Puyo is great fun but I think it works better as a party game than a solid single player experience

Honorable mentions I don't have time to elaborate on
Gaiares - Genesis shmup
Ranger-X - Genesis action game
Beyond Oasis - Genesis action adventure, like a mix between Zelda and a Beat 'em Up.
Zone of Enders The Fist of Mars - GBA strategy RPG with cool combat mechanic
Metal Gear Solid Ghost Babel - GBC game, awesome mix of MG1/2 and MGS
Ghost in the Shell - PS1 action game
Comix Zone - Fantastic Genesis action game
Anonymous No.3785507 [Report] >>3785674
>>3785327
that does sound kind of ass. is there any real reason to play vanilla over shattered?
Anonymous No.3785674 [Report] >>3785730
>>3785507
Shattered kind of sucks?
Anonymous No.3785730 [Report] >>3786063 >>3788699
>>3785674
how so? i certainly find it fun enough to sink a couple dozen hours a week into in between other games.
Anonymous No.3785770 [Report]
>>3778947
They are games like Rogue. The original rogue was fairly simple. Now, titles considered roguelike with a hardcore following are usually very in depth, and also include crafting and survival mechanics. A true roguelike is just a permadeath game tho. That's all u need.
Anonymous No.3785825 [Report] >>3785827 >>3786221
>>3779014
>Atari
Huh? Is this the best looking Atari game? It's very clean
Anonymous No.3785827 [Report] >>3786059 >>3786221
>>3785825
i certainly don't think those kinds of graphics are possible on a 2600. them simply saying "atari" is incredibly vague.
Anonymous No.3786059 [Report] >>3786243
>>3785827
well, um... surely someone here knows what version of Rogue™ that is.
Anonymous No.3786063 [Report] >>3788703
>>3785730
It doesn't have the same simplicity as vanilla PD. With vanilla there are only so many things that can go wrong on a run, so eventually you can beat it. With Shattered every run ends in a few floors as some new shit I've never seen before pops up to end my run.

The point of a casual roguelike is the casual part.
Anonymous No.3786221 [Report]
>>3785825
>>3785827
Calling it an Atari game is a bit misleading, it's from the Atari ST which was an Atari branded computer, it was a lot more powerful than the consoles they sold.
Anonymous No.3786243 [Report]
>>3786059
when someone shows a game and you know the name but not the system, go to mobygames and look through the screenshots section
The More You Know™
Anonymous No.3786382 [Report] >>3786480 >>3786510
>>3778929 (OP)
>What're you're favorites
Jupiter Hell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM1ZBvgYOX0
It's a solid roguelike and represents a significant step forward in terms presentation but at its core holds true to tradition. There's not a lot to hate unless you're fixated on swords, magic and ascii.
Anonymous No.3786480 [Report] >>3789939
>>3786382
I'm not fixated on swords, magic, or ASCII.
Didn't like it compared to DoomRL.
4 direction movement=garbage
Anonymous No.3786510 [Report] >>3789939
>>3786382
>unless you're fixated on swords
Swords are most powerful build in that. Dual-wield plasma katanas and go wild.
Anonymous No.3786647 [Report] >>3787592 >>3811725
>>3779014
That is a quite nice looking version, are you emulating it? I've been thinking lately I should go back to Rogue. When we got our first computer in the mid 80's the guy who set it up gave us a stack of floppies with games and Rogue became this weird obsession. I was probably 8 or 9 at the start and I never came close to finishing it because there were no instructions. I was convinced the scroll that says "you hear maniacal laughter in the distance" was a curse of some sort because I usually died soon after. But even though I never won, I kept coming back and eventually lead me to find roguelikes. But I still never went back.
Anonymous No.3787592 [Report] >>3788194
>>3786647
honestly the version you posted looks far better. classic rogue and roguelikes with tiles is just tryhard faggotry appealing to youngsters who think that graphics make a game
Anonymous No.3787597 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
Moria with the uniquely vibrant and colorful Amiga public domain tileset circa 1990s, for challenge and coherent monster and character aesthetics (I want to be a Ranger not a Tourist wtf)
Omega for the ability to play as yourself based on a questionnaire to load your stats and what was one of the first open world type scenarios I was ever introduced to.
Anonymous No.3788194 [Report]
>>3787592
I can appreciate that and objectively I agree, but I grew up on dos computers and feel like I've seen enough ascii for a lifetime. Kinda uglier but at least different is a bonus now.
Anonymous No.3788683 [Report]
>>3783779
>Pixel Dungeon was good until they added item breaking.
Play earlier SPD versions. You can build any. I recommend building the last v0.6 - 0.65c - and backporting uncursed indicator (the blue item background) as well as adding a few other minor QoL features (like obviously uncursed items in pit rooms). It's in Java so shouldn't take too much effort.

>>3783785
>Also unlike traditional roguelikes it has a warehouse for storing items between runs
You mean like in Angband?
Anonymous No.3788699 [Report]
>>3785730
Play different versions and see for yourself. Try 0.65c, then 0.75e (the last 0.7), then any 0.8 and then whatever. v1.x and v2.x aren't that different fundamentally. There are some good changes in the newer ones but with each minor version increment the removal of good things started outweighing the addition of bad ones.
Anonymous No.3788703 [Report] >>3790603 >>3792628
>>3786063
SPD is incredibly luck-based now. The trinket or whatever it's called is either near useless or fun and that's entirely up to RNG or at least it was like half a year ago. Then it's up to you getting an early drop of a good weapon or armour before the endless slog through chaff drains all of your healing methods or hunger+food. Crabs were made less lethal but then the respawning rates for everything are batshit insane so there's way more of them. Skellies and guards are worse because of that too. And it just goes on and on. So you're more likely to just delete the game out of tedium instead of splatting.
Anonymous No.3789939 [Report]
>>3786510
>>3786480
i too love double armor penetrating daggers in DOOMRL. but Jupiter Hell is pretty much the sequel of DOOMRL anyway.
Anonymous No.3790109 [Report]
>>3778947
tactical turn-based rpgs played on a grid with procedurally generated environments as well as permadeath. like they've been for forty years before indie game designers turned it into a catch-all genre because it marketed well.
Anonymous No.3790603 [Report] >>3790621 >>3790643
>>3778947
>turn-based
>tile-based
>run-based
>single character (direct control)
>non-modal
>procgen
>>3779006
permadeath doesnt have to be strict, unlockable characters (that arent designed to be stronger than starting characters) and bones could be considered metaprogression but they dont really affect your chance of winning
>>3788703
its still pretty completable without challenges (and without going into weird builds or playing with brewing) and with a subpar weapon. most of my deaths are from consumable hoarding as opposed to gotchas or forced gambles.
Anonymous No.3790621 [Report] >>3790764
>>3790603
I don't count anything that's a pure start-time decision as meta-progression as playing the same character over and over doesn't change subsequent runs. Expanding the item pool counts.
Anonymous No.3790643 [Report] >>3790764
>>3790603
>playing with brewing
Are you implying it's not essential anymore? What did he do this time?
>with a subpar weapon
You don't need a good weapon for the entire game. You only really want it for early game to reduce the mind-shattering tedium until you get a decent wand to dump upgrades into. You could technically win with just a ring and an assortment of whatever the game gave you but that is most likely no longer viable.
Anonymous No.3790764 [Report] >>3790891 >>3790926 >>3792963
>>3790643
>Are you implying it's not essential anymore
not for mediocre players like muself, but i can just throw seeds into the pot and create basic potions, and throw meat into the pot if i dont run into fire traps no need to make upgraded versions or deal with anything that reqiures reading like i see in the challenge runs.
>>3790621
i only count metaprogression as meaningful if it noticeably improves the average player's chances of winning. i havent really seen a game where the item pool expands in a way that doesnt increase winrate but it is theoretically possible
Anonymous No.3790886 [Report] >>3799981
One of the few ones I managed to ascend in.
Anonymous No.3790891 [Report]
>>3790764
Yes, the basic stuff is what's essential. Also chargrilled meat is the worst if you don't count raw. Probably the reason Evan made frozen carpaccio capable of burning into it not too long ago.
Anonymous No.3790926 [Report] >>3792963
>>3790764
>i havent really seen a game where the item pool expands in a way that doesnt increase winrate but it is theoretically possible
I find it's the opposite experience, the item pool expands and dilutes my chances of getting core equipment.

The question is are your odds of winning the same with a fresh install as when you've 100% the game. If not, it's not a rouge-like.
Anonymous No.3792622 [Report] >>3792677 >>3792694 >>3792710 >>3792725 >>3792737
What are the must plays of the genre that look at least decent?
Anonymous No.3792628 [Report] >>3792906
>>3788703
It's way easier if you're willing to splurge like 3 upgrade scrolls for an early armor boost
Anonymous No.3792677 [Report]
>>3792622
Brogue looks nice
Cogmind too
The rest is just basic ASCII or ugly tiles because muh graphics
Anonymous No.3792694 [Report]
>>3792622
whichever tileset you like
Anonymous No.3792710 [Report]
>>3792622
Cogmind, Caves of Qud, and Path of Achra all look good to me. I can speak for Qud and Achra, but I personally bounced off Cogmind. Still, it's highly regarded.

There's a demo for one called Gum Flesh on Steam. It's so early in dev that the demo is all that exists, not even in EA yet, but I think it looks pretty good as well.
Anonymous No.3792725 [Report] >>3811722
>>3792622
Personally I like the look of Powder.
Anonymous No.3792737 [Report] >>3792867
>>3792622
If you care about looks, play something else. Readability is the most important thing for roguelikes.
Anonymous No.3792867 [Report] >>3792891
>>3792737
Readability and good aesthetics can go together though. That its challenging in something as complex as your average roguelike is expected but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Anonymous No.3792891 [Report]
>>3792867
Sure, anything's possible, and I find good use of fonts and color in ASCII aesthetically pleasing. But the more you add into the environment, background, effects, monsters, and items the more tiresome it is to parse over many turns. Graphical simplicity is helpful unless you have a simple roguelike.
Anonymous No.3792906 [Report]
>>3792628
Also pointless because unless you luck out later you'll be struggling badly starting from midway into caves, possibly die to teleporting bullshit that is golems and very likely die in demon halls. All because those 3 upgrades were wasted on something that became obsolete at most in prison.
Anonymous No.3792963 [Report]
>>3790764
>>3790926
If there's an unlock all button or mod it doesn't really matter. That's a one-time thing and the game is not expecting you to build up power between runs.
Anonymous No.3795567 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
Right now I'm playing Zorbus. It's neat but I'm not sure how much depth there is to it. I'm also shit at it
Anonymous No.3799981 [Report] >>3799989
>>3790886
>Actually won IVAN
Colour me impressed
Anonymous No.3799989 [Report] >>3800001
>>3799981
The game has easy victory conditions, which aren't harder than 3-runing in DCSS.
Anonymous No.3800001 [Report]
>>3799989
in my experience, the main issue with IVAN isn't winning, is surviving the banana-laden hellscape long enough to become immortal
Anonymous No.3800131 [Report] >>3815464
>>3778931
Roguelites saved gaming when it was at its lowest. When everything was just movie games with QTEs, roguelites and dark souls put gameplay back under the spotlight, and made it okay to die again.
Anonymous No.3800492 [Report] >>3800750 >>3813346
How much of a copyright nightmare would making nethack into a big budget game be?
Anonymous No.3800639 [Report]
I really liked cogmind. Roguelike fans have genre autism so bad though it makes me ask why I would bother discussing the games
Anonymous No.3800750 [Report]
>>3800492
You'd have to rename Sokoban for a start.
Elbereth and Nazgûl are Tolkien, obviously. They can be a bit protective.
Crom is from Conan.
Beholder, Mind Flayer, Umber Hulk, Displacer Beast, Rust Monster, etc. are all from D&D, as are a whole bunch of the demon lords.
Keystone Kop, maybe?
You'd have to rename a lot of things, but not in a way that breaks anything.
Anonymous No.3801453 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
>What're YOU ARE favorites
None. My favorite is Brogue, and it's as far away from an RPG as a traditional roguelike can be. Rogue isn't supposed to have story elements, nor is each run supposed to take more than a couple of hours so that it is possible to play many runs. When you violate both of those rules, all you end up with is a really shitty RPG.
Anonymous No.3801991 [Report]
>>3779467
I was tempted to get cogmind but not sure if I'll like it.
Anonymous No.3802126 [Report] >>3802749
Are there any Pixel Dungeon forks that improve the gameplay?

Is there a list of forks?
Anonymous No.3802182 [Report] >>3802205 >>3802628 >>3802644
probably the best roguelike, although I enjoyed my Oblivion/Skyrim games where I chose TG/DB characters.
Anonymous No.3802205 [Report]
>>3802182
Anonymous No.3802584 [Report] >>3802713 >>3815464
I think angband is a fun game.
Anonymous No.3802628 [Report]
>>3802182
>roguelike
I understood that reference
Anonymous No.3802644 [Report]
>>3802182
thief predates the gay ass wotc garbage of eliminating thieves as a class and calling them "rogues" like some vapid fop.
Anonymous No.3802713 [Report] >>3802720
>>3802584
i don't like random dungeons, makes me feel like i'm wasting head space memorizing the floors
Anonymous No.3802720 [Report] >>3815464
>>3802713
huh, memorize? why would you memorize a floor in a roguelike? you can just look at it.
Anonymous No.3802749 [Report] >>3808903
>>3802126
"Shattered" is probably your best bet. ive tried a few of the others and that one seems to be only one that stands out.
Anonymous No.3805104 [Report]
What’s the most Rogue game that’s not Rogue? Should I just play Rogue at this point? Which version do you recommend?
Anonymous No.3805132 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
southperry maplestory roguelike mode.
Anonymous No.3806031 [Report] >>3806722 >>3817141
Tales of Maj'Eyal not being mentioned yet is a shame. Big world, good story, theory-crafting your build out the ass. Difficult but not impossible. Check that shit out.
Anonymous No.3806722 [Report] >>3807698
>>3806031
ToME is the most boring fucking shit. There are other roguelikes that have limited interactions, but this garbage takes the cake at being both infuriatingly shallow and constantly shilled.
You know why theory crafting a build is one of the more "fun" parts? Because actually using the damn thing is almost automatic. But even this sucks, because unlike Path of Achra or Rift Wizard, you're expected to do basically the same thing for possibly several hours to actually get there in the first place. And about the fourth time you do get there, you realize infusions/runes = survival more than anything else, so any build barely matters beyond its raw damage output.

Fuck this boring dogshit.
Anonymous No.3807698 [Report]
>>3806722
TOME4 is pretty much a roguelike for people who aren't into roguelikes. It gets recommended a lot because for those people, it's the only one they've played.
Anonymous No.3807917 [Report]
>>3779372
yeah, monopoly is my favorite roguelike
Anonymous No.3808903 [Report]
>>3802749
I've downloaded the code for the original PD, it's not obvious how to mod it. Object oriented code and code generated by IDEs mystifies me.
Anonymous No.3811722 [Report] >>3814515
>>3792725
Powder has forested areas??
Anonymous No.3811725 [Report] >>3826381
>>3786647
>>3779398
As someone who's played the original Rogue, are there any modern games that capture the same feeling?
Anonymous No.3811730 [Report]
>nobody mentioned Balatro, Isaac, or Slay the Spire
I know this is a contrarian board, but yikes!
Anonymous No.3811908 [Report]
Tales of Maj'Eyal
I've spent all of today playing Soulash 2, it's a neat little sandbox. I set a goal for myself to build a cozy house up in the mountains and form a harem of one of every race only to find I can't do that and instead have to invite entire families and get cucked.
Gonna try if I can achieve my fantasy harem in Elin instead.
Anonymous No.3813038 [Report]
What are the best roguelikes that do not involve starting in a village and descending, and once in a while return to the surface to sell/buy loot. I've played Diablo 1 so many times that I can't stomach this game loop anymore.
Anonymous No.3813346 [Report]
>>3800492
Why would anyone play your shitty cash grab over what's already out there?
Anonymous No.3814515 [Report] >>3815004
>>3811722
That part is the surface world after you climb up the ladder and win, but there are sometimes random forest rooms and the second to last level is an outdoor village.
Anonymous No.3815004 [Report] >>3815990 >>3815992
>>3814515
what do you find are the closest games to Rogue, but not being Rogue? i mean besides Powder
Anonymous No.3815303 [Report] >>3815305 >>3815384 >>3815388 >>3816280
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3601130/Touhou_Crawl/

Thoughts?
Anonymous No.3815305 [Report]
>>3815303
Anonymous No.3815384 [Report]
>>3815303
>crawl fork with 2hu shit
Anonymous No.3815388 [Report] >>3815393 >>3815396
>>3815303
>double cancer
For what purpose?
Anonymous No.3815393 [Report]
>>3815388
to leave this world faster. I've been ghosted by crush
Anonymous No.3815396 [Report] >>3815406 >>3815488
>>3815388
Why does DCSS get such bad rap?
Anonymous No.3815406 [Report] >>3815431 >>3817993
>>3815396
You had to be there, too many years to go over. Basically, it got progressively streamlined over the years because the development philosophy is based on hating roguelike, fantasy, and RPG conventions. It also fell prey to what any communal development structure falls prey to: circlejerking cliques.
Anonymous No.3815431 [Report] >>3815466 >>3815488
>>3815406
So where do roguelike enjoyers go to nowadays for that rogue fix?
Anonymous No.3815464 [Report] >>3815775
>>3802720
>why would you memorize a floor in a roguelike? you can just look at it.
many roguelikes have shadows and fog of war though? and some "fixed levels" that aren't random.
e.g. DOOMRL.

>>3802584
some of the variants are better.and they basically work on ANY PC.

>>3800131
pretty sure CRPGs were at its PEAK or proto-peak, when Diablo 1 became madly popular. RPGing was never "dying". Diablo 1 just made it more normie.
Anonymous No.3815466 [Report]
>>3815431
Pokemon ROMhacks?
Anonymous No.3815488 [Report] >>3815718
>>3815396
At its peak, DCSS devs were essentially the opposite of CDDA devs. They were maximally gamist and dropped "immersive" "gameplay" such as pressing the pray button on every single corpse to sacrifice it to a god, or collecting resources that were almost impossible to run out of. They also removed duplicate spells to make magic schools more distinct and things like that.

>>3815431
Traditional roguelikes are dead lol. If you want nu-roguelikes that are close enough you could try Rift Wizard or Path of Achra.
Anonymous No.3815718 [Report] >>3816237
>>3815488
They also removed Tolkien and D&D references and replaced them with lolcats and tentacle monsters. When all you have is a trimming knife and hipster disposition, everything looks like fat.
Anonymous No.3815775 [Report] >>3816279
>>3815464
which variants do you like? admittedly haven't played much of them
Anonymous No.3815990 [Report] >>3815992
>>3815004
Honestly, the reason I still play Powder so much is that nothing else actually scratches that itch. Most true roguelikes, like Nethack, Tome, Adom etc have a much bigger scope than a simple dungeon dive like Rogue. Anything else that sticks to a simple premise like that either adds in all kinds of progression elements like Shiren that mess with the balance or other aspects to make it seem fresh like Binding of Isaac which was designed as Rogue mixed with Zelda. There are 7day roguelikes that end up being similar, but as far as fully realized games go I haven't found anything else that close to Rogue, just expanded on a little.

If I ever get my ass around to making a game it would be a mix of a sequel to Powder mixed with SaGa 1, where you have to cart Baelzl'bub's heart to the top of a tower with several more open and themed levels along the way, kill the creator of it all and then escape as the tower collapses.

Some day maybe...
Anonymous No.3815992 [Report] >>3817133
>>3815004
>>3815990
The one other game to consider if Fatal Labyrinth, which is very close to Rogue with graphics, but despite a lot of tries something about it just never clicked with me.
Anonymous No.3816237 [Report] >>3816247 >>3816990 >>3817111
>>3815718
Even Linley's Crawl had nonsense like Killer Klowns and Death Cobs, not to mention pop culture monster dialog, if you want Tolkien atmosphere play a *band. That said a lot of the renames were noise that did not meaningfully improve or worsen the game, they just caused drama. They even reneged on Mountain Dwarves eventually.
Anonymous No.3816247 [Report]
>>3816237
I don't care about Tolkien at all, I'm not a crawl dev.
Anonymous No.3816279 [Report]
>>3815775
i'm the guy who /rec/ Steamband and ZAngband in earlier post.
Anonymous No.3816280 [Report]
>>3815303
oh and there's also 2Hu variants of Angband too IIRC but i never played them because i am NOT an autistical 2Hu fanboy. i think there was a list of them on the 2Hu wiki.
Anonymous No.3816281 [Report]
>>3779013
>Huh?
N_____.
Anonymous No.3816990 [Report]
>>3816237
BEsides Sil, all *bands are weak on the Tolkienesque theme, no? Doesn't Angband have like giant mice?
Anonymous No.3817111 [Report] >>3817122 >>3819118
>>3816237
>Want tolkien atmosphere
>Open Frogcomposband and play a force-using android monk
Anonymous No.3817122 [Report]
>>3817111
Just like Fingolfin!
Anonymous No.3817133 [Report] >>3817136 >>3817309
>>3815992
There's also kind of a demake of Fatal Labyrinth for Master System/GG called Dragon Crystal, but desu it's kind of the most barebone and caveman kind of roguelike one can get. Also it's easy to kind of break it if you find broadsword and few red oozes - Broadsword (or Greatsword? I don't remember) can't kill them, they multiply extremely quickly and are overall easy to defeat so it's perfect grind setup. Just watch out for food.
Anonymous No.3817136 [Report] >>3817309
>>3817133
>Broadsword (or Greatsword? I don't remember) can't kill them, they multiply extremely quickly and are overall easy to defeat so it's perfect grind setup
Pudding farming... home...
Anonymous No.3817138 [Report] >>3817945
>>3778929 (OP)
I've been bouncing around playing Elona, Caves of Qud,and Dwarf Fortress adventure mode recently. Not sure if they'll count in your eyes, but that's what I like and that's what I'm playing.
I prefer games that are more relaxed on the procgen elements. It was big in the 2010s because developers wanted infinite content forever, easily, but it ultimately failed for the same reason AI sloppa fails today; nobody wants infinite dogshit, and those that do can just get absorbed into Binding of Isaac or some shit.
The whole appeal of a roguelike, in principle, is to feel like you're grinding through a universe as a realistic part of it, playing by its own rules, so to say. That illusion is shattered when the universe is a markov generated backrooms hellscape.
There has to be a setting, plot, at least some stable NPCs, something, some universe. I'm alright with randomly generated shit being the main challenge of the gameplay, but procgen is kind of on the outs.
Anonymous No.3817141 [Report]
>>3806031
I tried playing it years ago, and after 3 or 4 hours of silently grinding dungeons I hadn't uncovered anything impressive about this "big world" or "good story" you're talking about.
Anonymous No.3817309 [Report]
>>3817133

>>3817136

The one other and kind of unique "trick" in that game was the egg/dragon thing. Throughout the entire game you drag behind yourself an egg that later can hatch into a dragon and grow with your level ups. It's doing absolutely jack shit but can be used to block enemies with no ranged attacks if you position yourself properly.
Anonymous No.3817941 [Report] >>3818350 >>3822950 >>3823263
This is a bit much.

>Q: What version/variant should I play? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The most commonly asked question.
>
>A: All the variants can be found at https://elona.fandom.com/wiki/Elona_variants
But as far as English variants go you will likely want to play oomSEST, an omake derivative, or Elona Plus Custom.
Yeah nah, it can't be that simple. I've played enough roguelikes to know that when there are so many versions aside from digging through github's trash bin it's not that simple.
I've read the bullet points. It's really not easy with just the two.
Anonymous No.3817945 [Report] >>3817950
>>3817138
IIRC there were also /vr/ games that used some random seeded code to create massive worlds, then edited them. Starflight 1 and 2. Not sure devs did the same thing for Star Control 2, which had an even bigger space sector than SF1 or 2.
Anonymous No.3817950 [Report]
>>3817945
I've never played Star Control 2 myself, but I've listened to the OST a lot and consumed a lot of content that has to do with it.
A very charming game, just one that's very much in the realm of being too archaic and clunky for me to properly enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOE-vVuBXKE
Anonymous No.3817993 [Report] >>3818103 >>3819112 >>3822953
>>3815406
DCSS devs actually did a great job by commiting to their vision and never capitulating to autistic whiners.
Anonymous No.3818103 [Report]
>>3817993
Do Kevin next.
Anonymous No.3818350 [Report] >>3818847
>>3817941
>URW is an Elona variant
I mean I guess I shouldn't be surprised
Anonymous No.3818847 [Report]
>>3818350
Nay, that's the Ultra Retarded Weeb fork.
Anonymous No.3819112 [Report] >>3819114
>>3817993
those djinn spellcaster runs keep me coming back.
though the "let's constantly change/rebalance the meta" design philosophy is kinda gay;
it has to do with them countering the leaderboard meta/strats
Anonymous No.3819114 [Report] >>3822028
>>3819112
turns the game into Path of Exile where the real battle isn't vs. the game but vs. the devs each patch pass.
Anonymous No.3819118 [Report]
>>3817111
>open frogcompsband
>doesn't go to angband.live/play
ngmi
Anonymous No.3819120 [Report]
>>3779457
>What are some examples of traditional roguelikes that aren't RPGs?
that's just a basic procedural maze
Anonymous No.3822028 [Report]
>>3819114
reading patch notes is the worst part of that process, i feel like some people get addicted to "updates" themselves who enjoy that kind of content treadmill design. playing a game as an identity is crazy.
Anonymous No.3822950 [Report]
>>3817941
>>Q: What version/variant should I play?
If you want to play a game always start with the latest version of the official project. Same meme forks for later
Anonymous No.3822953 [Report]
>>3817993
I respect the removal era more than the change random shit to justify a patch era. If they fix extended maybe I will play again.
Anonymous No.3823263 [Report]
>>3817941
Elin
Anonymous No.3824270 [Report]
brogue
its pretty tough tho
Anonymous No.3824670 [Report] >>3824758
>>3779467
play TOME
Anonymous No.3824758 [Report]
>>3824670
I have, it isn't listed.
Anonymous No.3825651 [Report]
>>3778929 (OP)
TOME is pretty good.
Anonymous No.3826295 [Report] >>3826559
>>3779467
where is caves of qud
Anonymous No.3826381 [Report]
>>3811725
Not really, no. Part of the attraction is the obtuseness and bare bones random dungeon crawling. Perhaps the Souls games? But I haven't played them so I can't tell you from first hand experience. I remember there's some Japanese remakes of Rogue for the ps2 (Rogue Hearts Dungeon, Simple 1500 Series Vol 028 - The Dungeon RPG) and I've played those a bit through emulation, they're fun and accessible, but not Rogue.
Anonymous No.3826559 [Report] >>3826567
>>3826295
No PUTUS Templar start = no mention.
Anonymous No.3826567 [Report]
>>3826559
They could have a full on Deus Vult SS member start and I wouldn't put it on my list. Shit's boring.
Anonymous No.3826572 [Report] >>3826627
>>3778965
*calmly exhales, as a tremor of his aura rattles the table*
You claim to be an expert but you are unaware of modern procedure?
Anonymous No.3826627 [Report] >>3826847
>>3826572
Not him, but what is your problem with it? Most people who bitch about it are hipsters who want X game to be considered a roguelike for marketing purposes but doesn't actually want to make a roguelike. I'm open to being proven wrong though.
Anonymous No.3826847 [Report] >>3826916
>>3826627
>This list can be used to determine how roguelike a game is. Missing some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise, possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.
It's vague and wishy-washy.
Going by the Berlin Interpretation, a turn-based, grid-based game with permadeath is just as much a roguelike as Prey (2017), a non-modal game that features complexity and resource management. These are all "high value factors".
Anonymous No.3826916 [Report] >>3826976
>>3826847
I think it's the exact opposite of wishy washy. The point is anything lacking any of the hugh value factors is only barely a roguelike. You can drop one, sometimes but a game that is just turn based, grid-based, with permadeath but none of the other aspects is not at all a roguelike. Hell, that describes chess.

You can have every other high value factor, but make it real time instead of turn based and it's in a different genre. That is how Diablo was designed and though adjacent in some ways is not considered a roguelike.
Anonymous No.3826976 [Report] >>3826987
>>3826916
According to the Berlin Interpretation itself, you're not meant to use it to get a clear determination of whether a game is a roguelike or not. Rather, it's a collection of features that helps you determine how much of a roguelike a game is. It's a fucking spectrum.
And it's not really a consistent spectrum. Look at ADOM. It has the other high-value factors, but is missing non-modality. Despite this, it's generally considered a very influential roguelike, while Diablo is not. Are some "high-value factors" more high-value than others?
Anonymous No.3826987 [Report] >>3826990 >>3827000
>>3826976
Because changing a game from turn based to action based has much broader implications than being non-modal. That's why I say you can sometimes drop one of them and still have something like a traditional roguelike, but more than that and it's a different kind of game. If you're interested, Roguelike Radio did a quite in depth episode where they all discussed aspects of it. That was a number of years ago but it's still around so should be easy to find.

My issue is that for many many years roguelikes were quite niche and the term referred to a pretty specific kind of game. And the elements laid out in the berlin interpretation tried to solidify what makes the formula work, because they aren't just random, it's how they all come together to make a very specific kind of game. Which isn't to say you can't take some aspects and still come up with a good game. Binding of Isaac for example was made as a mix between a roguelike and Zelda and became very popular, but I think saying it's the same genre as Nethack or ToME is what actually muddies the waters.

So for a long time that definition was fine, but then somewhere along the line the term 'roguelike' gained a kind of prestige. Then it started getting used more as a marketing tool to gain attention than actually paying attention to if the term fits. So now we're at a point where any game that has even just randomized levels calls itself a roguelike.

To add to the issue, the whole reason roguelikes were so niche for so long is that many gamers don't actually want that specific kind of experience you get out of a real roguelike. So those barely get made at all, but the market is flooded the "roguelikes" which are action shooter platformers with some random item generation.
Anonymous No.3826990 [Report] >>3827034
>>3826987
>somewhere along the line the term 'roguelike' gained a kind of prestige
It's really weird that these nerdy genres followed this path. RPG itself became a marketing term as well and you can see people on this board getting very upset that a game they like isn't considered an RPG by someone else. Yet they continue to mock nerdy and autistic things in schizo fashion. Many people are just weird creatures driven by memes, I guess, parrots with thumbs.
Anonymous No.3827000 [Report] >>3827034
>>3826987
>Binding of Isaac for example was made as a mix between a roguelike and Zelda and became very popular, but I think saying it's the same genre as Nethack or ToME is what actually muddies the waters.
Yes, definitely, but the Berlin Interpretation is still a shit way to define that genre.
Especially when there's a better one, here >>3781117
Anonymous No.3827034 [Report] >>3827054
>>3826990
It's very strange. Like the people who want Zelda to be considered an RPG for the sole reason that "RPG" seems more prestigious to them than "Action Adventure" which it obviously is.

>>3827000
A brief glance at that doesn't even mention permadeath... yet you're trying to call berlin shit? Kids wanting to redefine things for no good reason is vexing.
Anonymous No.3827054 [Report] >>3827234 >>3827265 >>3827379
>>3827034
Permadeath makes no meaningful difference for the genre. If you play TOME with permadeath turned on, it's obviously a roguelike. If you play it with permadeath turned off, it's the exact same game. There is literally no difference until you die. How can a difference you can't even notice change the genre of the game?
>yet you're trying to call berlin shit?
Yes. Do you actually disagree with that? Berlin doesn't require permadeath either. It's just listed as a "high-value factor", that a game may or may not have, that makes it "more roguelike" than a game with no permadeath. There's no cutoff point.
Anonymous No.3827234 [Report] >>3827313
>>3827054
>Permadeath makes no meaningful difference for the genre. If you play TOME
lol
Anonymous No.3827265 [Report] >>3827411
>>3827054
>Permadeath makes no meaningful difference for the genre.

You are exactly the people I hate for basically stealing the name of one of my favorite genres so you can shove it onto whatever casual piece of shit you want to make it sound hardcore or whatever. Permadeath is literally one of the most important aspects of the genre. You stupid ignorant child.

This place is a dumpster fire.
Anonymous No.3827313 [Report] >>3827385
>>3827234
TOMEfags in a nutshell. Roguelike for people who don't like roguelikes.
Anonymous No.3827379 [Report] >>3827411 >>3827676
>>3827054
I know exactly what youtube video you parrot and I'll tell you that this is disingenuous faggotry.
"Ughh but what if you turned off permadeath by accident and never notice it! It's changing nothing!" is massive bullshit because obviously your knowledge about permadeath or lack of it changes your playstyle significantly and negating it assume some absolutely retarded mental gymnastics for imbred mouthbreathers.
Anonymous No.3827385 [Report]
>>3827313
>Roguelike for people who don't like roguelikes.
More like...
>Roguelike for people who don't like people that like roguelikes.

It's like that game was made to specifically spite people that like that genre. Deep and complex world interaction mechanics? Nope. Forced permadeath? Nope. Intuitive RPG system? No, do bizzare shit like leveling magic on a cunning build for a single ascention (or whatever it's called) that will make your build viable and underlevel skills to save points in an undistributed pool to pour it in some talent branch you acquired through RNG NPC.
Anonymous No.3827411 [Report] >>3827623
>>3827265
>TOME and Elona
>casual pieces of shit
You certainly don't have to like them, but "casual"? Really? Would you recommend these to someone who plays video games casually?

>>3827379
Yeah, the video's even linked earlier. I don't think you're doing a good job of refuting it though. So your "knowledge about permadeath" changes your playstyle, and that changes the game's genre? If someone not familiar with these games was to play Stone Soup without knowing it has permadeath, would it not be a roguelike for that first run? What genre of game would it be instead?
Anonymous No.3827623 [Report]
>>3827411
A game where you can reload a save plays and is designed different to one with permadeath. Look at TOME or Elona, the whole "lore" and quests and repetitive areas you have to run through are not things that suit permadeath.
Anonymous No.3827676 [Report]
Permadeath fundamentally changes, or should change, encounter design and expected player decision-making. For example, your permadeath game shouldn't have RNG instakill ganks, loot variance that only makes some runs viable, or character building that expects the player to try and force a build. The game tuning should let perfect play result in a win close to 100% of the time, but make everyone else struggle.

>>3827379
>"Ughh but what if you turned off permadeath by accident and never notice it! It's changing nothing!"
Then they just die and lose in D4 lol. Same as if they played the game without knowing you can pick items off the floor or memorize spells. It's an irrelevant argument.