Thread 3795796

I'll do it. I'll fucking do it. I'll finish Kingmaker. Druid, Defender of the Free World.
Wish me luck.

>>3795796 (OP)
Hear me out:
Feyspeaker

>>3795796 (OP)
nah you wont
you'll drop it a little over half-way through
been there done that

time to admit the game is underbaked

>>3795869
hey, he might get further than halfway
last time I tried I got almost to Act 5 before being totally burned out
then again that burned me out so fucking bad I haven't even had the urge to try it again since, so

No game better encapsulates the term "flawed gem" than Pathfinder Kingmaker.
I played Tower Shield Specialist from beginning to end.

>>3795796 (OP)
Hear me out:
CG Bandit King: Archaelogist/Rogue
You cannot fail, and you cannot fail to have fun.

>>3795796 (OP)
The prospect of having to deal with the fucking kingdom management shit throws me off every time. And the fact that they allow you to auto-win at it is really telling

>>3795796 (OP)
Is this your first time playing it?

>>3796062
cant you automate it?

>>3796072
That's just admitting defeat, though. It's the timed aspect that's the real issue in the game for most people. Yes, unless you're retarded game is more than generous so it's never a problem, but just the fact it exists is a turn off for many.

I want to give the call of the wild mod a shot but I just don't think I can make it through another playthrough of this game. Everything after the cyclops chapter is such a slog.
I wish it had proper mod support so some autist could completely revamp the campaign.

>>3795799
Feyspeaker would be great if not for the fact that it has 1/2 BAB.

>>3796096
Don't worry, Owlcat already said they plan to remake the game somewhere down the line.

>>3796072
IIRC you miss out on some content if you automate it. Better to manage it manually and just set it to super easy so you don't have to think about it.

>>3796085
It doesn't help that the time aspect is so ass-backwards compared to what you'd expect from an RPG. In most RPGs you'll want to do the sidequests as quickly as possible before you progress the main quest, but in Kingmaker you need to rush the main quest whenever it pops up so you have more time to spend on sidequests.

>>3796168
>constant improved enhanced definitive this time for real editions
>still needs a remake/remaster less than a decade later
Jeez oh man

>>3796168
they don't even have the rights to the game, its not gonna happen bro.
Also knowing owlcat they would add more problems then they fix.

>>3796234
>they don't even have the rights to the game, its not gonna happen bro.

They don't have the rights to that particular version of the game, but they have for the IP. Which is why they want to remake it.

>>3796085
for me it's the aspect of the game actively not letting me go on adventures until I'm finished with my chores
FUCK
THAT
SHIT

>>3796085
>It's the timed aspect that's the real issue in the game for most people
It's actually that it's got rudimentary and empty maps, garbage encounter design and poor pacing.

I took amiri to her tribe, she killed the leader and argued with her old friend. I guess I fucked it up and she's gonna die in hateot?
I didn't wanna get in the middle of her struggle, like why does this game make it so you are the only one who knows how to fix everything?

>>3796310
muh power fantasy, even at the cost of making everyone else incompetent or have the decision-making ability of a child

>>3796310
>house
Non of the companions die as long as you complete their quest.The ending does not matter.The whole your companions due shit was either made up shortly after the release or because of bugs.

>>3796351
Oh well that's a relief

>>3795796 (OP)
be sure to make the right choice, anon

>>3796284
You would be amazed by how many don't like the fact there's a time limit hanging over them.

>>3795796 (OP)
>Defender of the Free World.
that or sylvan sorcerer make the most sense thematically. then again there's no paladin companion in kingmaker so being one would make sense as the archetypal hero.

>>3795869
>>3795891
S-SHUT UP

>>3796085
I can't remember what it was specifically but I enabled some cheat for a replay that made it not annoying. It's fun enough to see how different staff handles different jobs.

>>3796357
I am so accustomed to using the modded portraits I can barely recognize the originals. Especially for Nyrissa.

I have played to the finish line twice but never done the final dungeon

tried twice, took multiple false starts to get into it both times. it's so fucking BORING, UGLY, TEDIOUS. total slog. the kingdom management was the best part.

>>3796357
No worries, I did

>>3795796 (OP)
So how do you play a druid? Summoning,. buff machine, focus on pet?

>>3796415
>1) Pick Smilodon
>2) Cast healing/resistances/Buffs/summons and stand back
>3) ???
>4) PROFIT

or

1) Roll High STR/DEX
2) Prebuff
3) Polymorph
4) Suffer in melee
5) ???
6) Kinda PROFIT

>>3796429
If you pick anything but a Smilodon/anything that doesn't have trip you're automatically retarded

>>3796780
if you're playing on normal or lower just go with whatever you like. five attacks is insane, though.

>>3796284
wotr has the same problems and people love that game.

>>3796821
Yes, people are idiots.

>>3796415
>>3796429
real question is animal domain or delayed animal companion

>>3796859
Going AD gets you better summons later on, but like you said it delays getting a pet to level 4. With how OP they are this can be a big thing early on.

>>3795796 (OP)
Are you one of those "choice paralysis" people who can't finish any rpg? Sounds like a legit mental illness to me. You should get that checked out. I've never felt like quitting my run unfinished and wasting hours of progress. Once I make a character I stick with it until the end, whether that be 20 hours or 200.

>>3796780
I had a lot of fun as an ecclesitheurge of Erastil with an elk in Varnhold's Lot, with CotW installed. You get to share personal buffs with your pet, and transform him into a smilodon with an elk's extra bonk on charge later on.

>>3796913
>CotW
did you disable any features?

>>3796902
Good for you. What a meaningless post.

>>3795796 (OP)
Speaking of which is there a respec mod that actually works? Anoriel Eight Eyes retraining option seems to be bugged.

>>3797070
Both "Bag of Tricks" and "Respecialisation mod" work.

>>3796937
Only class changes for companions, unless I'm forgetting something.

>>3795796 (OP)
Where are you currently at in terms of progress OP?

>>3795796 (OP)
>>3795869
I redownloaded this game and tried to get into it again a few days ago but had to stop after just a few hours. It's aggressively boring and the combat, which is most of the game, sucks donkey balls. I started replaying Tyranny instead which is not also way more interesting but also has the best implementation of Real Time with Pause combat in any game ever - it's still RTwP but it's at least moderately fun and engaging most of the time. I'm not looking forwards to the mindnumbing Bane fights or the shitty final act but it doesn't ruin the rest of the game for me.

>>3795796 (OP)
>mfw we discover OP has restarted again before uninstalling the game

>>3796821
People who love WotR but hate KM are disingenuous, they are basically the same game with minor tweaks here and there.
They don't like the relaxed fantasy setting of KM and prefer the power-fantasy and grim/demon themed setting of WotR, that's all.
Both have the same problem and strength, same gameplay, same mechanics, etc.
I like both game, with a slight preference for KM because of the setting.
They also insist that KM in particular is a game that no one complete because it's boring.
Both game are slog-fest, all owlcat games are slog-fest with cringe companions.
You either like them or not, I can't see how you can love WotR and hate KM, they are the same game.

>>3796359
>sylvan sorcerer
Honestly a better choice. Lawful Charismatic is the best one for both adventuring and Kingdom. Then again, there is no Druid in the game otherwise.

>>3802089
This, but DOS2 and BG3.

>>3802089
You can skip cutscenes in Wrath.
Nuff said.

>>3802089
I guess the crusade is perhaps more actively involved? More people need to realize what they actually want to play is Heroes of Might & Magic.

Rest assured, this will be the sixth time we've reached Troll Trouble before dropping the game, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Different anon here. Also about to start this game for the first time. Anything I should know? I've heard some quests are timed and can be missed. As someone who hates missing quests for shit like that, how can I avoid it and what should I look for? Is there a list or something? Also, is a pure wizard okay for challenging difficulty?

>>3802089
I mostly agree, except I liked most of the companions in RT at least.

>>3802106
if you're not going to obsessively build craft a lot of the allure of pathfinder is lost

I'm quite familiar with D&D 3.5, but not Pathfinder because my group fell apart before it was a thing but really I only have one question. How's Magus?

>>3802106
There's a timer on each chapter of the main quest but you have so much time you're never at risk of running out unless you fuck around an absurd amount.
Just do the story quests when they come up and then spend the rest of the time building your kingdom.

>>3802118
It's also an interesting case where you absolutely should tackle the main story parts as soon as they pop.

>>3802099
God that shit is so bad

>>3802106
Normal is gonna be challenging enough for a first ride.

>>3796376
which ones

>>3796168
Imagine it got remade with full-voice acted talking heads including Hedwig/Baroness, DAI style.
>Nyrissa giving the "it was because it wasn't the first time I dreamt of you" line
OMG, would even with the thorns

>>3802099
>>3802141
As awkward as it is, it's better than the minigame of KM. Wrath has way worse puzzles though.

>>3802702
Bark is rough, anon.

>>3802801
Nymphs are supposed to be peak beauty and sexo, so it will work one way or another.
If not now, then with the curse removed.

>>3802801
>Casts barkskin
Now neither of us will be virgins!

I made a snake sorceress and I will either conquer the dryad pussy or die trying.
Yes, when she invited me to the verdant chamber to fuck but tried to kill me instead I still came alone.

>>3803005
You better have a good alignment or I'm gonna have bad news for you

>>3803005
Its not really something you can do without a guide. You have to pick the most pathetic simp dialogue options.
Thats what I heard anyway, I'm not gonna romance that plant bitch

>>3803010
speaking of which are there any benefits to neutral alignment? I remember the very early mites vs kobolds where only neutral can broker a peace, but not much.

The worst thing the devs did was call it the “true ending” as opposed to the “secret ending”
>t. autism compelled me to replay and do it

>>3803016
not really, I picked stuff you would say if genuinely smitten and then chose to keep being hopelessly unable to stop loving her even if I know, and such options work. I'd say it's actually nice if you look at it from the role play pov.

Other things are hard, like knowing you have to pass the spot/arcana check in the cyclop dungeon. And that you should not have other romances, which you an get a hint from the host of the fey debate competition event if you win (obviously you gotta ask about your love problem, right).

>>3803017
nothing big
that and you can keep the kobolds from the troll fortress around, which actually gives you Tartuk as companion in the final dungeon
Being Lawful Good is better. You can respec to change your alignment for particular events I think.

>>3803005
>>3803016
Perhaps it is a good idea to check the guide after completing parts of the game just to make sure your choices were compatible, so that if you screwed up, you don't have to go back too much.

>>3803016
>Its not really something you can do without a guide. You have to pick the most pathetic simp dialogue options
>not really, I picked stuff you would say if genuinely smitten and then chose to keep being hopelessly unable to stop loving her even if I know, and such options work. I'd say it's actually nice if you look at it from the role play pov.
To the contrary I think there are actually points where you nympfucking simp instincts can actually betray you - you must not offer to give up your kingdom to her

>>3802111
Really strong, especially dex sword saint, but the base class is good on it’s own.

>>3803024
I think either Lawful is the best for the Kingdom part.

>>3803017
You'll always miss out on small things like some dialog options being locked depending on your alignment, but it's nothing to lose your mind over. Just play and enjoy the game. People always want to min-max everything and that just takes the fun out. Might as well just follow a guide then.

>>3803073
And eldritch scion can get bloodline traits which is fun flavor (can get stuff like wings)

Jesus Christ, I go back and they STILL haven't fixed the bug that randomly makes the game stuck in slowmo occasionally
How the fuck can you be this incompetent? How do people tolerate this?

>>3803073
>>3803117
I see, thank you. Now, I recall that the game favors light armor to some extent, but... would it be worth it to suffer through the early game to do a heavy armor magus? It's more my style and I just don't want to play a fucking cleric for the thousandth time just to get an armored gish but if it's unbearable...

>>3803126
Yeah, Magus is nice since you will get medium kinda quickly and heavy not too late.

You can get higher AC with robes and such tricks, but I gotta say I prefer the look of the full plate armors, Eldritch Scion with STR build sounds compelling. At least you can get more feats instead of investing into finese.

I'd go STR but also be an elf to be able to get Elven Curve Blade. Early on, there aren't very good ones, but for later parts, the very best weaon is ECB. Total killer.

I don't know how mindbroken you have to be to not quit during the last act. It's the very definition of a slog.

Just skip to WoTR.
Kingmaker was made by like 20 people. WoTR was made by 120. The difference between the quality of both games is astounding, Kingmaker is a goddamn waste of time at this point.

>>3802035
Both Pillars of Eternity have much better RTwP combat than Tyranny. In fact Tyranny uses a very much simplified version of PoE 1's system with way less features.

>>3803223
I disagree.

>>3802089
That's like saying Fallout 3 and New Vegas are the same game. You're a retard .

>>3803137
Doesn't Magus need one-handed weapons?

>>3803233
>That's like saying Fallout 3 and New Vegas are the same game
Fallout 3 and New Vegas are the same game.
>t. played both

>>3803281
It's reasonable to like NV and not FO3.
>t. felt meh about both

>>3803124
They can't, anon. Owlcat don't have the rights to the game and due to the publisher fucking them over or some shit.

>>3803223
Is WoTR really better
Does it have the time limit of KM

Kingmaker hate is a meme. I beat it after WotR and found that it does some things better. I guess the on-release issues marred its perception but it's a perfectly serviceable game as it is now.

>>3803439
>Kingmaker hate is a meme
It's not a thing at all, it's called preference.

>>3803234
Been a while since I tried but not.
You are right that if you want to use the weapon + spell use in offhand feature, you have to keep a free hand.
Other stuff works with 2H weapon fine, including the touch spell + attack feature.

>>3803534
>the touch spell + attack feature.
I mean, delivery of touch spells via main weapon attack (as opposed to the spell offhand attacks)

>>3803304
so they can't touch the game anymore?

>>3803439
>>3803447
You'd think running your own kingdom was a safer, bigger fantasy than managing crusades, but here we are.

>Main Theme
>The eche before the sound
>Bittersweet
>First world battle theme
>Dawn at the Narlmarches
>Peaceful Lands
>Hills of Glenebon
>Rule of Balance
>Season of Bloom
>Thousand Grains
>Bold dogs bark loudly
>Blade of your own choice
>False Destiny
>Exploring the Stolen Lands
Absolute God tier OST, up there with IWD. It really carries the game for me, definitely better than Wotr.

>>3803758
Forgot Capital under Attack

>>3803758
WotR has great OST too. It stands out a bit more, which may be a bd thing for some, but it's also a good thing.
I mean, MYTHIC POWER

>>3803758
it's mid

>>3795796 (OP)
After beating it twice, I'm done. It's too flat more often than not, even with traversal mods.

>>3804012
>its too flat
What does that even mean

>>3804006
if you know where the fort is you can beeline for it

>>3804013
Plenty of maps are identical. Most buttons on the overworld are tiny. It's a chore to beat the game. The first playthrough is OK, gets stale fast.

>>3803787
no, that's your wit

>>3804006
>play Chaotic baron
>make trolls your vassal
>Ekundindu chimps the fuck out and leaves
>have army of domesticated trolls for your military and percentage of niggers in the barony goes down to 0
The correct strategy.

>>3804028
I cannot fathom playing Chaotic. Do you just do the opposite of common sense?

>>3804068
read that as catholic. time to get off the internet for a while.

>>3804006
>>3804028
>mfw dwarf prisoner you can mercy kill or try to heal in the fortress
There are some great small moments in the game like that.

>better roleplaying (dialogues have choices for every combination of Lawful-Chaotic and Good-Evil instead of just one, your kingdom gradually evolves due to your choices while WotR hard locks you into a single specific alignment in the first hour of the game)
>better itemization (something that is rarely talked about, but WotR is infamous for having worthless exotic weapons all over the place and a pretty limited choice of gear overall while in KM it felt like there are more good drops for everyone, especially with the option to commission things from crafters)
>kingdom management >>>> crusade management even considering the time limits. Crusades just suck ass and are almost completely divorced from the core gameplay while Kingdom management involves your party members and gets you constant rewards while granting you a sense of growth
>better enemy and environment variety. 90% of WotR is fight demons in a wasteland or a dark city. In KM you face a much broader bestiary across a more varied landscape. HATEOT can be pretty bad but imo not as bad as endgame encounters in WotR. Just take blindfight and it will be ok.
>cool bossfights with a recurring motif that make you feel like you're moving on from killing a bandit lord to facing the fairy god
Kingmaker is Kino and completely equal to WotR with the Call of the Wild mod that makes most PF classes left out of it playable.

>>3804068
My goals are beyond your understanding.

>>3804090
Also Kingmaker has meaningful True Neutral only options.

>>3804097
Yeah, I covered that in the first point. Kingmaker has dialogues with options like

>[Yes]
>[No]
>[Chaotic Good]
>[True Neutral]
>[Lawful Evil]

While WotR is just

>Yes
>[Good] Better Yes
>[Evil] No!
>[Chaotic] Reddit sex penis

>Oh no, we are too late! These people have all been infected. They may look fine now but soon they will turn into monsters!
>This entire camp needs to be purged!
>How can you even consider that? There has got to be another way!
>DAMMIT KESTEN, I am your Baron and I order you to purge this camp!
Kino, love that little reference to Warcraft in Season of Bloom.
Double based if you know the cure but you just kill them all anyway.

>>3804090
Also KMs cast is better than that wotr.

>>3804112
I actually think they're more or less equal. Linzi has the most memorable role from either game hands down. Jaethal and Nok-nok are peak but the rest of KR cast weren't that memorable for me except maybe Harrim. On the WotR side Wenduag is probably the best ever CRPG romance for me, and I liked every dialogue by Daeran and Regill.

>>3804090
>>3804097
>>3804103
people who shit on kingmaker in the choices department probably never replayed some parts to see how differently they can play out. then again there are no louder vocal than those who actually FINISHED the game and saw the final stretch.

>>3804118
KM cast is a lot more archetypal. WotR went into special snowflakes territory.

>>3804079
it's also a trap unless you have tristan with you. in which case you get a huge buff that can carry you through the entire place if you time it correctly.

>>3804090
It's baffling to me, really. The cotw mod is made by fans and delivers a lot of the classes. At the same time owlcucks cry in their videos how much work classes and races are. Shit doesn't add up.

>>3804103
>>[Evil] No!
Either that or
>I hate you. Die!
For no obvious reason, like when talking to a cat.

>>3804103
Yes, KM is worse. Specific alignment choices are retarded instead of letting you craft your alignment from a composite of choices. Angel alone has two different shades, one Lawful oriented and one Good oriented and you can combine them as you see fit.

Guys I finished Kingmaker after multiple attempts over the past few years. Always quit around vordakai. Last act needed better pacing I would have enjoyed it. Onto wrath where I am playing a Sylvan sorcerer - hellknight Signifier lich

>>3804501
Wotr falls flat after act 3 and act 4 is as atrocious as it gets. Both games need teleport mods, how can devs fail so bad?

>>3804423
>Specific alignment choices are retarded instead of letting you craft your alignment from a composite of choices.
Because that's what I think about when I imagine Pathfinder. Composite morality.

>>3804503
Every owlcat game goes to shit at act 3-4

>>3804503
Yea I know the demon city sucks and everything after is rushed. Where else can I play a Lich though.

This game would be amazing if you could steer multiple parties at the same time instead of needing to only follow the MC. I get the kingdom advisor thing is supposed to offset this a bit but still.

>>3804627
Mythical class is awesome and their selection is nice, at least partially. Lots of unfinished business. I swear, owlkeks are as filthy as a company can be.
>>3804609
This will only get worse, they are now releasing four games and one so-called from the aaAs class.

>>3804513
>imagine Pathfinder
There's your issue.

>>3804706
Owlcat trying to make multiple games at once has to be the dumbest decision of all time.
They can't even put together one functional game at a time, let alone 4.

>>3804726
The point is to create jobs and launder money, not make good games.

>>3804731
Their games are not shovelware

>>3804735
Yeah, they are slavware.

>>3804739
Sovlware

>>3804726
>They can't even put together one functional game
It's ridiculous, really. They worked like 6 years total on wotr and still have plenty of bugs and a convoluted story that ends as abruptly as possible.

>>3804742
>S(h)ov(e)lware

>>3804749
Heh
>good one, actually

>>3804753
Not posting in memespeak all the time does wonders for your ability to make off the cuff jokes.

>>3804757
>memespeak
People do that in real life, too. It's already a topic for scientific research. People tend to use phrases for everything, a fast food language, fitting for a meme timeline.

>>3804762
Yes, the disparity within human intelligence is staggering. By all means, follow the herd, take comfort in consensus.

>>3804765
>By all means, follow the herd, take comfort in consensus
Apparently it's "hard coded", which I sincerely doubt. It's lack of courage above anything else. They know, they choose not to.

>>3804762
It's is short for "it is". You are doing it yourself too. It is human nature to make things faster and more efficient, as long as the message gets across. Yeah dumb people fuck it up sometimes, but that does not make the action of optimizing bad.

>>3804791
It's or it is obviously isn't what this is about. People using almost exclusively idioms is not only impairing language, but ultimately thinking as well. It got worse during the rise of social media. It will get much worse in the near future.
Just so we don't misunderstand each other. An abbreviation isn't bad per se, as long as the message gets along. More and more people use predefined language and don't form sentences, they just repeat idioms, similiar to parakeets.

>>3803281
I rest my case

>>3804841
fr omegalul

>>3804967
Y r u gae

>>3795796 (OP)
Wil increasing map movement speed fuck up progression by leaving me with too many days to skip?

>>3805143
you'll end up skipping days regardless. keep in mind km is balanced around game fast forwarding 14 days at a time.

>>3804771
I think it's capacity, that's the problem with scientific studies on the nature of humanity, there isn't one kind of nature in us, it's starting from a false premise about language. Some people tend more towards parroting and herd thought. It is sad when those with ability to overcome it get swept up in that behaviour through Pavlovian conditioning though.

>>3805149
Yes. It's a shame that whole GAME IS TIMED reputation scared away a lot of people. I'd say bigger "problem" are random spikes in difficulty, especially early on.

>>3795796 (OP)
>completed Season of Bloom
Let's get this DLC done with now. Did they ever do the "DLC references the campaign and vice versa" thing again?

>>3806510
are you the op? you're actually sticking with the game?

I saw the thread and figured, wow, I should do that too
Holy shit I forgot how jank and tedious this game was, this was a mistake

>>3806510
For Wrath there's Through the Ashes/Lord of Nothing, though the cross-referencing is minor by comparison; I think you only briefly meet some of the characters rather than them playing a relatively important role (for a time, anyway) like Varnhold and Maegar can. But I might be wrong there.

>>3806510
>varnhold's lot
just be aware this is a lot harder than you've experienced in the main campaign up to that point. mainly because your provided companions are absolute ASS, meaning you're expected to create three additional characters and understand group synergy. you'll also lose two characters towards the end so you'll only have four to work with.

>>3806853
If you mean the prebuilts it offers, sure, but you literally cannot fuck up a Wizard unless you tank their Int so Cephal is just fine (while he sticks around)
Even then I feel it's one of those things where people massively exaggerate the level of optimization required, or for some ungodly reason assume new players will blast Unfair in a system they're unfamiliar with

>tfw you finally get greater enduring spells

The prebuffing in this game is insane but atleast I can go nuts with it.

Man, my brand of autism is actively detrimental to this game. I get an idea in my head and then it crashes head-first into the mechanics. Mostly because I wanted to do Monster Tactician Inquisitor of Nethys, but the summoning eats up three feats by itself so the only reliable choice for the rest of it is big grug high strength heavy armor, and I don't wanna do that again. I already did it twice. But everything else (dex melee, archery, intimidation, and especially trying to double down on casting) takes up way too many feats to work, so it'll propely kick in maybe 3/4ths of the game in.
But I guess it might not matter, when the summoning will do most of the work...

>running through Blackwater with an army of Repurposed Augmented demons and shit

First time I've felt like a lich so far, repurpose is just amazing

>>3807110
People probably got PTSD in the last dungeon when you lose Varn and Cephal only to be stuck with prebuilts. You're fucked unless you have a pet or two to throw around as tanks.

>>3807336
Yeah, that's fair. Owlcat did people dirty by not making it clear none of the prebuilts have ANY special content, or... really anything to make them worthwhile.
Well that and having them be pretty bad, but considering what they've done with some of the companions in the main game... not a surprise.

From what I gathered reactivity is basically non-existent in Kingmaker outside of alignment, but I'll ask all the same... what are some fitting/interesting deity options from a roleplay standpoint?

>>3807562
For what it's worth my last playthrough was Cleric of Nethys purely because his whole philosophy (power and knowledge above all, regardless of use) and theming (heal with one hand, destroy with the other) actually justifies playing the sort of True Neutral who can veer between extremes as needed, but without the arbitrary bullshit or HAVING to adhere to balance. What I'm saying is it's the cop-out philosophy if you want it to be and I love it.
I was originally gonna do a Druid for my neutral run but while that fits thematically it also doesn't actually have much in the way of druid-themed choices outside of a handful of quests, so that was a fine compromise.

I forgot how fucking horseshit the swarms are before you get Jubilost or better area spells
Missed with too many of those alchemist fires? Fuck you, game over.

>>3807582
ironically, it's really only an issue doing the early quest for bokken. it takes so long to run into a single swarm after that.

>>3807593
technically not even, since the swarms are past the fangberries so you don't need to fight them
of course it means going back there later, and for that kind of loot it's not worth it, so it's a question of "do you care enough about a cure wand to suffer"
unless you play an Alchemist, then it's fucking nothing

>>3807595
>he didn't sneak past those enemies with linzi and steal shit

>>3807606
So much of the loot you find just gets sold for money to buy BP, though. You only really need to keep unique shit and maybe some Cold Iron weapons.

>>3807582
Honestly I'm always more annoyed by enemy casters just spamming Cause Fear every turn. Most of the time it doesn't even achieve anything beyond being fucking aggravating.

>>3807582
>>3808890
Well, it's all on-brand for Pathfinder encounter design. One of the official modules had you stuck in with a massive swarm of bugs that dealt stat damage just by existing, and if you lacked/ran out of area effects you couldn't do anything to it. Another had the very first encounter (at level 1 of course) be a bunch of fey shits that spammed Color Spray, and well, if everyone falls asleep that's just game over, they shank you.

>>3807593
>>3808890
I do find enemy behavior odd at times. Like how they'll barely if ever use charge, and practically no enemy priest/cleric will channel. So much so i was surprised when couple of them did.

I completely blanked out how dogshit Pathfinder gameplay is, holy shit
>Early game? Bro just roll high and don't roll low! Tactics? Who cares lol
>Late game? Bro just cast buffs and protections! Tactics? Who cares lol

>>3809602
skill issue

>>3809606
bot tier reply

>>3809607
bot equivalent is an apropos response
>midwit forgets he doesn't like an old ass game, cries online about it
who asked lol

>>3809608
I don't see you bitching about the rest of the posts here that do the exact same thing, pull your head out of your ass and kill yourself

>>3802715
>Wrath has way worse puzzles though.
This convinced me that the designers at Owlcat are aggressively retarded more than all the shitty, zero-effort encounter designs combined.
>most people vocally hated the puzzles in Kingmaker
>"I know what'll make them happy, we'll dedicate several areas and one character's entire plotline to puzzles!"

>>3809777
People are retarded, though. It tracks they don't want elements they can't brute force. There's a reason MOST dislike puzzles be they good or bad.

>>3807336
dugath is a cool dude

>>3809791
The puzzles are bad.

>>3809793
NUMERIA STRONK

Also, I like the fact taking Amiri with you has benefits for once.

>>3809777
The games both would be so much better in that aspect if they'd let you put notes on the overworld.

>>3795796 (OP)
>mfw entirety of Vordakai's Tomb
Is this the goddamn shit that awaits me from now on?

>>3810722
oh my dear anon. you've merely poked the shit.

>>3810722
If Vordakai's Tomb already pisses you off, the House at the End of Time is going to drive you up the fucking walls.

>feel like I should finally try KM and WOTR afterwards
>read this thread
>dont feel like playing it anymore

thanks guys!

>>3810767
they're good games

>>3810767
they're bad games

>>3810767
they're mediocre games

>>3810722
sheer number of enemies aside vt is the first real bump in the road that can fuck you over with shit like negative levels. I guarantee your average player is not carrying diamond dust and still thinks lesser restore will fix shit forever. it's a rough wake up call.

>>3810767
>reading threads about games you haven't played
dumb guy

>>3810847
>I guarantee your average player is not carrying diamond dust
I wonder how many realized some spells have material components to cast when it was too late.

>>3810847
Anon, the average player doesn't make it that far into the game to begin with, they get bored and move onto something else in their backlog. That's gaming in the Steam age.

>>3810722
No, after VT you are just going to stomp everything. Its when you start getting good equipment and stronger abilities/spells.

I think the problem I have is that the game isn't difficult as much as it is tedious. d20 systems in general are half about bad roll management - after all if you keep missing and your enemy keeps hitting you just get fucked, it doesn't matter how big brain your tactics are. Add to that how many design elements are just stalling. Enemies spamming control spells (Cause Fear early, Hold later, or Thunder Call from those kobolds for stun) and occasionally summons just to flood the place and body-block you, traps usually doing little but keeping you in place (special shout-out to Web for lingering out of combat for several minutes forcing you to wait it out), abundance of tripping enemies, equal abundance of enemies that inflict poison, swarms of chaff that die in one-two hits and exist only to do some annoying shit alternating with swarms of chaff with overly high defenses just to buy spellcasters time to do their thing. Add to that difficulty mostly just bloating enemy AC and saves so YOUR tricks don't work as well. It feels like everything is meant just to make you waste your time. I can count interesting encounters on one hand, as most of it amounts to the same three things over and over, and half of what I mentioned becomes entirely irrelevant when you have hard-counters for it (in the form of spells, each and every time) which then turns it into nothing at all, just a meaningless speedbump.

>>3811289
That's why 90% of the "strategy" in both Pathfinder games, especially on the higher difficulties, comes down to obsessive prebuffing.

Owlcat IS capable of designing interesting encounters on occasion, but they're so few and far between that they almost don't matter and almost every fight is either another bunch of trash mobs or another bland tank&spank boss that's immune to everything.

Wrath is funny to me because the INSTANT you get that ability that makes your buffs last 24 hours you literally cannot lose. The worst that might happen is a dispel but then you just reapply them and keep winning.

>>3811301
Add to that if you're playing turn-based exclusively you'll want to blow your brains out.

>>3811320
Only if you have ADHD.

>>3795869
What always gets me is the load times. The game starts out just fine, but as the save bloats the load times get longer and longer and I just lose motivation to keep going. Even on a modern SSD faster than anything available when the game came out the constant load screens always get to me and I lose interest.

Also a load screen between you and kingdom/settlement management was retarded, that could have been something you do in a menu in like your inventory, you shouldn't need a load screen for that.

>>3811320
Turn-based is nice for boss battles but yeah most of the game is better if you're playing in real-time and using cheat engine to speed the game up while chewing through the endless trash mobs.

>>3811301
That's just the ruleset. You want to stack odds in your favor and that's why spells/items exist. If it was the other way around people would ask why is all that pointless shit in the game.

>>3811377
>That's just the ruleset.
No, that's just Owlcat doubling the stats of every monster compared to the official rules, giving every single boss a fat stack of free buffs and immunities at the start of the battle, and throwing in 30 random trash mob encounters between every fight that actually matters. Unless you're playing on babby mode you need to prebuff just to keep up.

I unironically love Kingdom management. I wish there are some mods to add more features and expand management fuhrer.

>>3811382
I'm surprised there's no major balancing mod that fixes that.

We need Rebalance mod for KM to rework all systems into something more fun, balanced and lore friendly. AI shit would be usefull when in 2-3 years they achieve top coding ability to decode owltrash's shitty unity code and rework it

>>3811382
>>3811385
Just resetting everything to purist tabletop mode would make the game piss-easy, but a mod that tones down some of the retarded abilities enemies get and reduce the amount of immunities on bosses would be nice.

>>3811385
>>3811386
>>3811394
it won't happen because core audience are autists who love testing out character builds against unfair situations

>>3811402
The issue is that the design actually limits character building. For example how are you going to do a poison build if everything that matters is immune to poison? That's not a Pathfinder-specific issue but it does get worse because of how Owlcat designs bosses and even lategame trash mobs to be immune to everything except straight damage.

I was hoping playing on modified Core that gets rid of bullshit bloat would help, and it kind of does, but you still have to deal with twenty goddamn time-waster random encounters every time you go somewhere. Well, maybe eighteen time-waster encounters, and two "what the fuck did you mean by this" where it shits out a CR 17 enemy (or several) against a party of level 5s as a joke and forces you to reload, because you're in a different encounter zone for five seconds.

>>3811343
Any game using a universal engine will be like this.

>>3811383
I like it as well. Why is it so hated?

>>3811522
Becuase its underbaked. You could be playing another better kingdom/city builder if thats what you want, and it really doesnt marry it into the CRPG in enough ways to justify its existence.

>>3811382
I think you got it the wrong way around. They adopted the tabletop system closely so players end up with all the buff options. But because they have all these buff options, Owlcat has to adjust all enemies to still be difficult to their autistic playerbase that will absolutely abuse the systems they offer.

>>3811678
So the system itself sucks and neither the playerbase or Owlcat is at fault for anything?

>>3811680
yes

>>3811678
Or you know, you could just do what every DM eventually learns to do and just accept you've got a pretty easy game going outside of tailor-made encounters, and much of the possible challenge comes from sources other than the combat past a certain point.
Does it really HAVE to be difficult? And if the answer is yes... change the system altogether. Even now it's piss easy if you've got experience, with the possible exception of a difficulty literally named "Unfair" with all the bullshit handicaps it imposes. And even that one is smooth sailing for much of it, if you engage autism.
Why bother trying to make Pathfinder something it's not?

>>3811680
Pretty much, same goes for all CRPGs which just use a tabletop system rather than coming up with something unique for a video game. The two just arent compatible and have completely different playstyles. If you adapt the rules 1:1 players will just abuse the hell out of saves/loads to cheese.every encounter.

>encounter begins
>experience a massive whiff-fest, missing all but ONE attack from the whole team, despite the highest to-hit required being a roll of 13
>MC gets crit three times in a row and it's over
I... I think I just hate d20, guys.

>>3812002
That's just RNG for you. Risk mitigation is key and something people don't get in general. You don't hope you land a hit, you stack the odds in your favor so you hit more often. Vice versa for your defenses.

>>3812025
I mean, first of all, I understand risk mitigation just fine, thanks. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it as a core mechanic, or a specific implementation of it as in this case. I don't think I should bust my ass with buffs for some random encounter with no great importance beyond some XP and shitty loot, there's no real feeling of escalation if every other battle requires your best, so you just fall into routine when dealing with the real plot boss shit. Also I didn't feel this fucked by RNG even in XCOM, and I mean the original, so I think it's something specifically about D&D with its specific probabilities of getting shafted or dealing massive damage that triggers me.

For those of you that use modded portraits (For WOTR or KM) do you just go balls out and use whatever looks good to you or do you at least try to make them resemble the original design

>>3812002
BG3's cargo cult dice fetishism made me realize that the D20 system is fundamentally flawed because it is a flat, linear distribution, in which an average result, a very poor result, and an excellent result are all equally weighted, which feels very random and swingy and bad. A proper system should involve summing multiple smaller dice to produce a Gaussian distribution, in which an average result is weighted far more heavily than a poor result or a great result.

It is true that an omniscient DM with infinite time and perfect knowledge of all the modifiers which will be applied to a specific roll could set a D20 roll to have the desired chance of success for his players, being effectively equivalent to a Gaussian distribution in that case, however in practice that is not the case. When a player applies a +1 or a -1 to a roll, it's linearly shifting it by 5% increments, while a Gaussian distribution would still be more non-linear.

>>3813443
No doubt

>>3813443
D&D has a lot of really poorly designed baggage, not just the D20. But it has become iconic with D&D so they don't change it and some not every bright people equate familiarity with quality.
Even just having 2x D10 would improve it, but it would no longer be the iconic and marketable D20.

>>3813443
Dice debates are timeless. I've personally always been a big fan of roll under d100.

>>3809777
It took me literal hours to solve Nenio's puzzle on my first playthrough, definitely never doing that again

>>3813493
that just reminds me I want a call of cthulhu rpg adaptation

>>3812056
So he gives you good advice and then you admit you were too lazy to use it in the first place. Stellar.

>>3812056
The point of D&D is that everything can go wrong on a dice roll to truly convey the lethality of being in a monster dungeon.

>>3813932
Always amazed by people who feel the need to misrepresent what someone wrote just to shit on them.

>>3812056
>I don't think I should bust my ass with buffs for some random encounter with no great importance beyond some XP and shitty loot
It's funny because at a certain point you'll have Kingdom bonuses if you invested in them so you won't need to do the usual buffing for throwaway fights.

>>3813443
Ive found rolling at advantage just feels better, so as a DM for my players I just roll all their rolls at advantage (two twice, they keep the higher roll), and when they roll at advantage I actually roll them at double advantage (three dice, they get the highest roll). I have this set up in the app we use as a hidden script. It works under the table so they have no idea its going on, they just roll and most of the time if theyre proficient in something they make it. Oh and all monster rolls are at disadvantage too. Not a single player has called me on it yet, but it makes everything so much smoother. Kinda feel like this is something all D20 games should be doing by default.

>>3814533
Goddamn and I thought I was running easymode games
I mean whatever works for you, but... wow.

>>3814537
The thing is the players have no idea, and feel like kings when they come out of a "hard" encounter. I still get the usual whingeing a out luck when things still dont go their way too, its hilarious.

>>3814533
5th edition was a mistake.

>>3813443
Advantage isn't a linear distribution but it's a dogshit replacement for bonuses.

>>3814585
Advantage and disadvantage are far worse since they square the probabilities in either direction.

Give me Valerie!

>make a human base 20 fighter on hard difficulty
>specialize in longspears because spears are often neglected in video games
>he's a beast who murders everything that stands in his way, solid performer the entire campaign
you guys really overthink this stuff, most classes are good as they are

>>3814639
Pure fighters are very good. They are extremely refreshing to play after coming from a feat-starved class.

>>3795796 (OP)
For WotR, what classes go well with Divine Hound on a Legend playthrough?

>>3814639
Simple REACH spears give you is often overlooked.

>>3795869
I've beat it five times so far. It's not underbaked, you just lack stamina / attention span. Ask your mom, she'll tell you the same thing. Read a book. Find one without pictures in it.

>>3814640
You can literally solo the game as a fighter. You can't solo the game as a wizard.

Just gonna leave that fact right here for now.

Might not pick spears for it in an unmodded game, but custom-crafted weapons from the mod kind of throws everything out the window anyway.

>>3795796 (OP)
They forgot that Icewind Dale can do a combat focused version of isometric because snow and snow monsters are cool

>>3815254
My first run through kingmaker I solo’d it as a paladin. Hardest part were those fucking swarms that stat drain you to death.

>>3815212
Being smug and condescending isn't an argument, sorry.

As I stare at the class list I come to a troubling realization, that both explains my indecision and does nothing to alleviate it.
I like too many things. I think too many things are equally cool, and this game is far too long to replay it anytime soon to just do all of the potentially cool options in order.

>>3815254
Yeah, people cry about "traps" in these games buy I've never seen a single RPG that couldn't be beat with any combination of classes. I think people just hate feeling like they aren't the strongest possible character at all times. It's why they love "balanced" games, it helps soothe their feefees.

>>3815281
It's important to clarify for them that their concept of "balance" is not real, it's not true. It's just whatever mollifies them.

>>3815270
"It's underbaked because I say so" isn't an argument, either. So you got called out on your bullshit, and that's the best you can come up with? You smell like chicken nuggies. I smell you through my screen. Take a shower.

>>3815276
It's a party-based RPG, anon. You have six characters in a party. You can make custom mercenaries to adventure with, even.

>>3815307
Yes, frothing at the mouth and spewing childish insults will surely convince someone that you're the one in the right here.

>>3815309
I realize that. But considering the preset companions have narrative importance (sometimes) and in the end only ONE character is the main one, unlike in something like Icewind Dale where it really doesn't matter, it's not QUITE the same.
Especially since for some reason the mercenaries get less stat points.

>>3815281
>Yeah, people cry about "traps" in these games buy I've never seen a single RPG that couldn't be beat with any combination of classes.
I fucking dare you to try 4 Knights in Knights of the Chalice.

>>3815312
>game is called Knights of the Chalice
>can't beat it with only Knights
sasuga shitdev
at least it beats KotC2 which doesn't even have anything to do with the organization itself far as I can tell

>>3815311
>spoiler
It's just a balancing measure so that using mercenaries isn't completely broken, the same reason they take a malus if you use them as kingdom advisors. Otherwise you could just make custom mercenaries with 20 base in any relevant attribute (two attributes in some cases) and there'd be no reason to use the regular companions. The higher attribute point buy is a bonus to make up for them having preselected attributes and feats that you can't change even on respec.

>>3815311
If you want even more power, the game allows you to have it. Yes there's a cost. There's always a cost to power. Since you can beat the game easily with the pregenerated companions, I don't know why you're complaining about them while you simultaneously admit in the same breath that they're strong and that you like their narrative relevance.

Like. What even is your fucking point, then?

>>3815410
You might be confusing me with someone else there, as I have said nothing about power as a factor (other than mentioning mercenary point buy)
Can people please read before responding?

I can't go back to Kingmaker after WotR

>>3806510
>>3806614
Why is every DLC a convoluted mess that you have to look play order for

>>3810847
And it's an extremely fair and telegraphed wake up call. You KNOW that it's an undead lair by the time you get there. You KNOW what level you're at and what spells you have available. You've seen everything in there before, you've fought all of that kind of stuff before. You KNOW that whoever is in there is throwing those neg levels and stat drains at you.

Anyone who's played the tabletop is way ahead of this and has already stocked up. But people who've never played the tabletop still have no excuses. Buy the fucking diamond dust, dude. Buy the fucking potions and scrolls. For real. Seriously. They're not expensive. You neglect your UMD and consumables at your own peril.

Vordekai's Tomb is absolutely gentlest, tender way it could be done.

Why? Because you're able to cast level 9 spells, anon. Death is **LITERALLY** just a curable crowd control debuff at that point. So stat drains and neg levels are the only thing the GM can even do to you anymore.

>>3811385
The only thing a mod could address which the difficulty sliders don't is spell resistance and hit die totals. The actual ability scores and bonuses you can correct back to PnP in the difficulty settings.

They did encounter design by an ad hoc approach, basically. During playtesting (which was extremely limited) they took feedback and gathered data and said this boss needs to be harder, ok, let's bump their hit die to give them as much hp as we need to last this long minimum.

Which is an INSANE thing to do if you actually understand how Pathfinder works, because stuff like Spell Resistance is calculated directly from hit die. So you end up with a fucking dragon that has 52 SR while the player is level 10. Just for reference, you have to roll 1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses to beat SR if you want your spell to affect the creature.... If you're level 10, your caster level is 10, spell penetration is +4 in total if you have both feats. There's a metamagic feat for +5 but not worth actually using as a feat so you need the rod instead. But basically you are not gonna come up with an extra +20 just to have a 5% chance of landing a spell on that dragon. While it's one-shotting someone in your party each round.

The reason dragons are dangerous is because you're expected to be working hard to debuff them so you can survive. But with unbeatable SR you can't land any debuffs...

Because of the fucking hit die inflation. And the difficulty sliders don't affect hit die.

So that's what a correcting mod would have to address. Which would mean you'd have to manually go through a few thousand creature statblocks. Modders are lazy.

>>3811406
There definitely is an issue with blanket immunities in Pathfinder 1st edition, but the majority of immunities in the Owlcat games are due to buffs the creatures have on themselves.

Dispel is an insanely important thing to have available.

The actual problem here is that the effective caster level of the buffs on enemies is wildly inflated. You'll see a boss with only character level nine but his buffs are caster level 20???? Which means you can't actually remove them because you aren't gonna be able to make that caster level check. Why are his buffs at caster level 20? Because Owlcat's code doesn't actually check or validate anything like that. It just sets his buffs on and defaults to some number, which Owlcat left at 20. It's fucking stupid.

>>3815515
For me, it's never using a single consumable or item, ever

>>3810847
>>3815515
All I remember is fighting Specters gave me flashbacks to vampires in BG2. Fucking level drains, man.

>>3812002
>>3813443
>>3813493
The magical world of GURPS is waiting for you, anons. Waiting at the kitchen door, searching wistfully to catch a glimpse of you coming down the road. There's a light on over the stove and the smell of hot fresh bread and stew is wafting from the house. /tg/ has links to a pirate repository with ALL of the books. Enjoy.

>>3815521
>>3815523
Did they actually change any of that in WotR?

>>3815526
>The magical world of GURPS is waiting for you
We have GURPS at home. The GURPS:
>SPECIAL

>>3815524
Break yourself of that habit. Once you realize that PF1e (like all D&D editions before it) was designed under the assumption that your healing is done during downtime using consumables, you then begin to realize that clerics are actually just for saving a few gold on casual healing sometimes. A sufficient UMD check can completely replace the cleric.
>>3815525
The main horror of stat drain is that Death Ward doesn't block it like it does negative levels... The nasty thing about those spooks is that they're incorporeal touches. So you need Displacement for concealment and extreme Touch AC (get a Dex-Wis Monk with Dodge and whatnot, and Mage Armor + Shield **SHOULD** be applying to your incorporeal touch AC but I don't know if the Kingmaker engine actually obeys that caveat). Slow is an incredibly powerful spell in mid-late game like that because it not only allows you to kite, but it also reduces enemy attacks per round to ONE. Because they only get one action, they cannot make Full Attacks.

So cast Slow them, for sure.

>>3815534
That's really the problem and source of "difficulty" people have with Pathfinder games. Their arcane casters are full of damage spells and divine casters are just healbots. Prevention is better than cure in this case, and most just overlook or simply don't understand how everything works under the hood.

>>3815529
I can verify that they did not. But it is slightly less egregious in many cases. There are some cases where it becomes SOOOOOO fucking infuriating, though, because the illegal numbers is the only reason some fucking thing is happening. The dragon and Staunton in particular. They are both using illegal hit die and caster levels which causes their SR and and stuff to be impossible to deal with. There's glasses you can get that give you an automatic nat 20 on your next dispel check, and those are MANDATORY for the fights along with the best dispel you can get. To deal with the illegal SR of various creatures, there's a mod I use that lets you add a scaling bonus to your caster level checks to beat SR and I set it to add +1 per character level. That ends up roughly correcting for the math in most encounters, but it's obviously still not enough for the dragon. You'll have to customize both the difficulty setting and the mod's bonuses to to deal with her.

By late game, the martials are one-shotting everything anyway so spells and debuffs no longer matter and your casters are just deadweight by the time you go to the Abyss. Maybe bring one along if you don't feel like using a wand of dimension door. Angel immunity buffs are nice but not strictly necessary.

It's only early and mid game when you have to debuff things to survive that your casters are relevant. So Staunton and the dragon are at the fulcrum of that shift, which makes their invincibility due to illegal numbers just fucking sickening.

>>3815521
>The actual ability scores and bonuses you can correct back to PnP in the difficulty settings.
I wish this was the case. In a sane world, Owlcat would have just had this be the vanilla default "normal" difficulty, but they applied really weird offsets and scaling to everything. You can kinda sorta approximate what PnP stats would be with some goofy combinations of difficulty settings, but it's imperfect, and only close.

>>3815539
That's only true in the video games because Owlcat didn't want to program spells other than fireball. In the tabletop, clerics will do just about anything *except* wasting time or resources on healing. And literally since the 1980s the general advice to mage players was that spending a spell slot to do damage was a complete waste of your resources and anyone who suggested you do so was insulting you. There's SO many more important things for your spells to do than just 30 damage.

Slow, for example. I cannot stress that enough. Or Dispel. Or Displacement. Those three spells are in the Owlcat games, and you'd better be really fucking familiar with them by the time you hit level 5...

>>3815541
It's a matter of labeling. If you adjust stats to match PnP, the game's easy. Because tabletop's difficulty is actually from the GM being adaptive and clever and terrain / environmental pressure, and resource pressures (because you can't just sleep after every fight or your GM will murder you). So Owlcat means "normal" like "this is the difficulty we intend for the game's default experience to be like", rather than "this is the original default of the published Bestiary".

And, again, the actual thing the difficulty sliders cannot adjust which actually does matter is the hit die of creatures and caster level of their buffs. Those two specific things are 90% of the problem. +2 or +5 to hit and AC actually don't matter much in the grand scheme of the game. Saves are a different issue.... Those do indeed need to be toned down by maybe eight or ten points, and that's fucking INSANE that they're so inflated.

>>3815539
I legitimately think if Kingmaker was originally a turn-based games would've seen use. RtwP alters your mind on what to prioritize.

>>3815553
Does it help if I tell you that there's a mod that makes it turn-based?

>>3815554
I'm gonna... I'm gonna... I'M GONNA FIVE FOOT STEP
after they patched the turn based mod into kingmaker, I played it 100% turn based, and played wotr 100% turn based too. The inn defense mission in act 1 took like 45 minutes.

>>3815561
The tavern defense episode is an extreme outlier. Specific encounters that are about mass numbers of mooks you can safely switch to RTwP and do just fine. Then just switch back to turn-based mode when the minotaur breaks down the gate.

Other than that one fight, Wrath is generally known for being a slog through a flood of mooks, even at the tabletop. That was kind of the entire concept of the adventure in many ways.

Kingmaker, though, has tiny itsy bitsy fights by comparison, only maybe twelve enemies at a time, and there are many encounters in it that really just are absolutely fucking insane if you're trying to do them RTwP. The stat draining swarms, in particular, are faaaaaaar more reasonable if you tackle them in turn-based mode.

>>3815561
At least it's not as bad as tabletop gameplay. No, Jayden, you cannot use your five-foot step to drink a potion. That's not what a five-foot step is, that's not how it works. No. Stop. We've been playing for six months and you've been told repeatedly.

>>3815534
Actually you realize that the Cleric has completely fucked up encounter ender spells and is one of the hardest classes to put down.

>>3815570
What if I use my five-foot step to trip and fall with my mouth directly into the potion?

>>3815580
it would be extremely painful

>>3815581
That's what the good juice is for!

>>3815581
>for you
>>3815580
As a long time GM I am thoroughly unamused.
Fall damage is 1d6 per 10 feet fallen, I'm just gonna round up your 5'11" character and say he's a ten foot increment in height, so a fall directly onto the potion not only shatters it, but it apparently shatters directly against your face and mouth, inflicting not only the fall damage of 1d6 but an additional 1d6 bleed damage. You gain no benefit from the potion because you didn't drink it, and it is now wasted as it's a muddy puddle already sponged into the soil. And you're of course Prone now. Reminder that bleed damage ticks every round until you receive at least one point of healing.

https://youtu.be/E5OA5L9C42E?si=dWQfjIFYC7L4apS6

>>3815632
Possibly a Reflex check to avoid being permanently blinded by jamming shattering glass shards into the eyes... Do not tempt the GM's wrath.

>>3815540
I've always found save or suck stupid compared to fighter mechanics.
5e makes spell systems like that tolerable again only through range bound accuracy.

WOTR magic is mostly good for buffs to make your martials as invincible as Staunton.
Unless you're abusing the no save Angel knockdown + oneshot spell, which is excessive on the other end of bloated stats gameplay.

>>3815643
Well the wildness of the spread is due to numerical inflation, which isn't a part of the underlying system. PF1e has the potential to get screwy but only if you just keep adding arbitrarily large numbers to things. If you run it strictly RAW it doesn't get into wonky hyperinflation territory and you end up with basically "bounded accuracy" in the sense that all the variables are within a certain spread that still allows the lower bound to meaningfully contribute.

But yeah, Wrath spells are awful in their selection. There's nukes and buffs and nothing really in between (because all the illusions for mass fascination have hit die limits which make them useless in a game like Wrath since you're already up against creatures with ten hit die by the time you're out of Kenabres at level 5.... Fucking insane... And the enchantment crowd controls only work on "people" which mostly means humanoids of player races which are rare in both Wrath and Kingmaker). So there's Glitterdust (which is my pet hobby horse to hate on since it should have been nerfed or moved to spell level 5 more than twenty years ago) and Slow, and that's about it. But they don't keep scaling and by the time you're level ten, the lower save DC (since they're only level 2 and level 3 spells...) really begins to hurt and by the time you're level fourteen they're useless because of that lower save DC.

You can help address some of these issues by using that same mod to fix both caster level tests for SR penetration while also providing an automatic scaling for your spells' save DCs to help them keep up with enemy saves.

Then you'd need to make enemies tankier by inflating their hit points and damage done through ToyBox in order to make it worth the action economy to disable an enemy before just killing them.

Warriors are just way too powerful in Wrath, period.

>>3815632
>Fall damage is 1d6 per 10 feet fallen
It follows that unless you fall at least distance of 10 feet, no damage is taken, as no minimum damage is specified. As my character is only 5'11, it is clearly impossible for me to have fallen a total of 10 feet, and thus I should take no damage. RAW.

>>3815647
What're you talking about? PF1 has huge bloated numbers RAW.

>>3815653
Not compared to the target numbers. The difference between minimum and maximum is only ever really about ten or so. Or, to put it another way, in order to only be able to succeed on a nat 20, you have to intentionally dump that specific thing with zero investment over the course of leveling.

So if you're that invested in sacrificing some specific thing, yeah, you're gonna suck at it. For most builds though, you'll maintain a one in five chance of success even in things you're "bad" at. Obviously you can optimize your strengths such that you exceed target DCs by more than ten or even twenty in some cases. So that's why it's such a traditional critique of builds that overinvestment in something is a waste of build currency. Because if you can only fail on a nat 1 then why are you buying even larger bonuses to the check? Granted, skill checks don't have crit fails or crit successes, but still the point remains.

>>3815651
That's why I'm rounding up your fall damage to the nearest ten foot increment - 5'11" is well past the halfway mark, and unlike a normal fall, you're intentionally aiming to get your face to the ground in the fastest way possible, rather than attempting to mitigate your fall.

The spilled potion, by the way, has an unfortunate alchemical reaction upon being mixed with the soil of unknown composition. Roll 1d10 to determine the caster level of the resulting fireball after you apply the fall damage and the 1d6 bleed per round token icon. Since this is an explosion taking place directly against your face, it counts as a coup de grace attempt, so don't forget to roll your survival check after we calculate the fireball's damage.

>>3815665
No, the gap is much much larger than you think it is. A Monk in the same party as a DC caster is going to have the worst time ever because if the DCs are low enough for the Monk to hit a Stunning Fist, the caster is going to make them fail 95% of the time. This goes for any half-assed MAD save effect.

>>3815669
Wait a minute, a coup de grace is a specific action available to melee weapons or a bow/crossbow only, you can't do it with a spell or a bomb-like explosion, and I KNOW this because Pete tried to do that two weeks ago with that sleeping troll and you didn't let him

>>3810722
Vordakai's tomb is the last good part of the game.

>>3815632
>Reminder that bleed damage ticks every round until you receive at least one point of healing.
*pulls a second potion out of his back pocket and dives onto it again*

>>3795796 (OP)
I will finish it but I will never get good

>>3815686
speaking of which I was surprised how much monk gear there is in kingmaker

Man I can't decide if Scroll Savant is worth it.

>>3815647
>hit die limits which make them useless in a game like Wrath since you're already up against creatures with ten hit die by the time you're out of Kenabres at level 5.... Fucking insane.

Another point in 5e's favor, at least how bg3 implents it, not sure of the TT but I really loved how it works on current HP and not HP maximum. Meaning you can wound something, and then sleep or color spray it for example. Upcasting system increases their upper limit which makes them even more useful.

Max hit die limits on spells has been a pet peeve of mine since 2nd ed, they never even see use once you're past 2nd level enemies hardly because the spot in your books is no longer worth it.

I consider PF a dead end system that has painted itself into a cul-de-sac in gaming history still full of all these traps. There really isn't much going for PF other than Owlcat's influence in my book.

>Warriors are just way too powerful in Wrath, period.
Binary roll only system favors the thing with all the stacking rolls per round that can also benefit from 80 percent of the caster buffs. It's a systemic problem from 2nd ed on, not just warrior.

>And the enchantment crowd controls only work on "people" which mostly means humanoids of player races which are rare in both Wrath and Kingmaker).
Of course you cheese around this by taking the totally reasonable and totally RP friendly setup that makes you take a level in sorc with both undead and serpent (iirc) bloodlines.
Of course you feel Very Smart for your build mastery but then later realize the game is a bloated mess and something more elegantly streamlined like 5e is superior, generally speaking.

Using so many mods to make basic combat mechanics playable hurts man.

>>3815647
You're right about glitterdust, and grease comes to mind too. Which is also in BG3 and still pretty fucking stupid for a level 1 spell.
I don't seem to remember Larddalf the White coating everything in Middle Earth in animal fats.

At least BG3 has counterplay/combo because it often catches fire inadvertently, giving you a little damage but removing it's ability to CC with no concentration.

Concentration is a great idea but a little overly restrictive itself. (Magic weapon for a +1 takes concentration? Seriously?)

>>3795796 (OP)
Such a shame there's no alternate resolution to Pitax. The whole "handing your crown over" is just bait.

>>3815820
>Larddalf the White coating everything in Middle Earth in animal fats
That's because the wizard archetype in D&D isn't in any way based on Tolkien's wizards. They can't even use swords.

>>3815814
I will never 'realize' 5E is superior because it's not. It's awful.

Oh to be young again and still give a shit about edition wars

>>3815998
I’ve just checked out, accepted that DnD is being deliberately killed, and stopped giving a shit about.

>>3795796 (OP)
>I'll finish Kingmaker. Druid, Defender of the Free World
You can perfectly do it because that's the exact same build I did (with fire domain in place of animal companion) to finish Kingmaker. I finished it once though.

I build my drood around wildshape (specifically smilodon) and had a blast. Just make sure to level correctly and steadily bring (at least) one of the twins when the [spoiler[Wildhunt[/spoiler] fuckers appear.
It will save you a lot of time and sanity.

>>3815996
Very thoroughly agreed. I can't bring myself to finish Act 1 of BG3 because the 5e mechanics are like physical pain. It's fucking agony trying to create a character there. It's not even a character. You get literally two options and one of them sucks. Both suck if you're making something stupid like a wizard. It's not an RPG if you can't customize your character.

And that's just character creation. 5e barely even fucking has any mechanics for anything else, let alone any tactical combat options. Say what you want about PF1e but at least we have feats and skill points, fuck sakes.

>>3815814
>Another point in 5e's favor, at least how bg3 implents it, not sure of the TT but I really loved how it works on current HP and not HP maximum
That's not a problem with Pathfinder, though. The problem being discussed is with Owlcat's combat designers not understanding how the system works, so they did wrong shit that the game's mechanics don't normally allow.

It'd be like if you think you're playing soccer, but in a video adaptation the game allows you the enemy team to use their hands. You can't use your hands, only the enemy team gets to use their hands.

That's not soccer. The problem isn't with soccer, it's with the game doing blatantly wrong shit to make things "harder" for you instead of making things harder in a way consistent with the rules.

>>3815686
If the monk runs out of stunning fist uses, he's still a monk and perfectly capable of kicking ass. Stunning Fist is a gimmick toy he might use against a squishy caster enemy who has a good chance of failing the save.

It's not the only feature the monk has. It's an optional feat he might pick up if he feels like spending feats slots for something silly.

The wizard doesn't have other class features. He has spells. And only one or two spells per day of his good ones. Only three or four per day of his weak ones. When he runs out of spells, he's literally nothing.

Yeah, Stunning Fist should not be as reliable as a spell. To suggest otherwise is a pernicious and insidious attempt to manipulating context to construct a false narrative. You deceitful sack of shit.

>>3815722
Congratulations, you've incremented your 1d6 bleed to 2d6 bleed. And we're doing the whole reflex save to avoid blindness, the 1d10 caster level fireball and coup de grace survival checks and the whole shebang all over again. But first you have to spend your Move action to stand up from Prone and your Standard Action to retrieve the potion from your bag. It's a free action to drop it, at least.

>>3815691
You can't coup de grace trolls because they regenerate, anon. It's got nothing to do with what weapon you want to try to do it with. Chopping trolls into chunks only makes more trolls.

It's not that I didn't let him, I just advised him against the attempt on the basis of his Knowledge check result. His character knew better than to try so I let him decide what to do with the information and he took my advice.

Anyway, Blackleaf is dead. Go generate a new character while your teammates decide what to do with your backpack of potions.

>>3815754
The mod to switch Harrim to sacred fist warpriest is the best mod for the game, by far. It's such a simple little change and it makes so much fucking sense with his personal story. I can't imagine trying to play the game with him as a cleric. Especially not with Tristian already there.

And can we spend a minute to talk about how weird it is that you don't get any druid companions in a fucking Kingmaker campaign?!

Two clerics and an inquisitor? Really? WHY is Jaethal even fucking there?! Literally everyone else has a reason to be there but Jaethal.

>>3816049
I don't think they thought about companion class distribution, like at all. They choose companion classes and builds based on what fit their vibe

Octavia, your only full arcane caster, has levels in fucking Rogue. Honestly I'm pretty sure the only reason she's even a Wizard and not an Eldritch Scoundrel is because they released "oh fuck there's no arcana full casters" after having already settled on her shtick.

I kinda like it though. Kingmaker has always resolutely been vibes first. I can autism-spreadsheet my way into an easy time with any companion set. I can't autism-spreadsheet my way into good, comfy vibes.

>>3816040
>And only one or two spells per day of his good ones.
Wrong
>Only three or four per day of his weak ones.
Extra wrong
>When he runs out of spells, he's literally nothing.
4 encounters per day intended by the way.

>>3816072
Just saying "wrong" like that isn't how this works. At all. Especially since the system is not a mysterious obscure vague esoteric thing that only an elite few can understand.

Here. Look for yourself. Tell me how many spells per day the wizard has: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard

And I know the first thing you're gonna try to claim. You're gonna claim that it's more than two. But that's because you're falling into the classic noob trap of believing you can just arbitrarily and spontaneously decide which spells you have available to cast right on the spot. Which you cannot.

You have to prepare your spells ahead of time. If you don't have a spell prepared which is applicable to the current situation, then you have to take that into account. It effectively means you can't have all your spell slots available in a given day. Because no one knows exactly what's coming.

As for the expected number of encounters per day, the wizard isn't the only character in the party for that calculation. Nor is the wizard expected to cast more than one spell per combat. Literally. This has been a thing developers and the playerbase have thoroughly hashed out and understood for more than thirty years.

And you would know all these things if you actually were a Pathfinder player. Which, now we know you are not. So shut up and listen when someone is speaking who does know what we're talking about.

>>3816071
Octavia isn't a full caster. She's an arcane trickster. You're doing it extremely wrong if you don't like her rogue level.

I mean, I complain about the class distribution and whatnot, but it's entirely fair for the companions' classes to fit their vibe...

But that still doesn't solve the problem that the vibe of the campaign was "we're exploring a wild untamed wilderness haunted by beasts, fey and the natural elements, and our neighbors are barbarians and rustic villages". That's druid and ranger territory (Hunter didn't make it into development, but now that the class exists, they're definitely supposed to be here).

>>3816077
It is how it works, you're just fucking stupid and don't know how to play a Wizard for shit. Wizards get 1 extra spell per day from school specialization if they elect for it, which is almost always the right decision. All casters gain bonus spells from their primary stat. It's easy to pick spells that apply to many situations, and if by some reason you have trouble doing that, you can leave spell slots unprepared to prepare them in the middle of the day in 15 minutes, there is an archetype that lets you swap spells out on the fly multiple times per day AND gives you DC or caster level boosts, and another one that stacks that gives you spontaneous spells.

Call of the Wild mod which adds a bunch of classes from the tabletop has Antipaladin with the Blighted Myrmidon archetype, which is an absolutely perfect fit for an Evil playthrough. Instead of smiting good (worthless) you smite animals and fae regardless of alignment (perfect thematic and gameplay fit) and drain health from them with your aura. It also works really well with the stuff you get from the Ravenous Queen questline, which seems to be tailor made for an antipaladin despite that not being a class option in vanilla. Would recommend.

>>3816080
When you double down after you were proven wrong and just call other people stupid for not agreeing with you, you've forfeit the argument by admitting you know that your original belief was wrong but you're more worried about your ego. It's extremely obvious to people older than you. You're transparent.

And now your defects of personal character are all out here and we're looking at you behave like that.

The correct thing for you to do is to be quiet, listen to what you were just told, and then adjust your beliefs to match the demonstrated facts.

It's ok for your misplaced beliefs to have been wrong. You didn't understand something important about how wizards actually work, and you formed a belief based on that misunderstanding. You believed the memes of noobs and children and you've never been confronted about them before.

But you were just wrong.

And those of us who've played first D&D and then PF since long before you were born are looking at how you're behaving and what you're saying and we recognize it immediately. We've seen it before. We've seen you before hundreds of times.

Will you ever be quiet and listen and change to improve? I don't know. And I don't really care. You're not in my life. I don't have to care. I'm not responsible for you.

You can take this and learn from it and grow as a person or not. But now you cannot escape it: the reason you have these misunderstandings is because of a deeper flaw in your character that you won't change.

You can be wrong. And that would be ok if you changed. It's not ok to be wrong and insist on being wrong because of your ego.

>>3816080
>>3816077
>You're gonna claim that it's more than two. But that's because you're falling into the classic noob trap of believing you can just arbitrarily and spontaneously decide which spells you have available to cast right on the spot. Which you cannot.
That's the absolute end of that discussion.

>>3816086
>Antipaladin
lmao

>>3816087
That's a lot of words to say 'I don't understand how to play a Wizard and actually I'm the one doubling down while accusing you of doubling down'. Pathfinder gives you a pile of options to counter literally every single point you raised and they weren't serious, insurmountable problems back in 3.5 either.

>>3816040
>The wizard doesn't have other class features. He has spells. And only one or two spells per day of his good ones. Only three or four per day of his weak ones. When he runs out of spells, he's literally nothing.
Where are monks compared to wizards on the 3.5 tier list?

>>3816092
That's a lot of words for you to conceal your original lie that wizards can arbitrarily spontaneously choose their spells at the moment of casting and that they have unlimited spell slots.

Which we already established you knew was a lie and that you're still trying to support.

You lied and you got caught lying about that. And you're trying to deflect and reverse the posture between us. But it isn't working for you.

Because your lie is very plain and clear and laid out now.

>>3816091
Evil is fun, especially with the reactivity that Kingmaker gives you with your kingdom and making Mordekai or that Lamashtu chick into advisors.

>>3816098
>That's a lot of words for you to conceal your original lie that wizards can arbitrarily spontaneously choose their spells at the moment of casting and that they have unlimited spell slots
Surely you can provide evidence of this claim?

>>3816096
The tier lists you're referencing have long been the laughing stock of the community. You're the incels of tabletop gaming.

If you ask an incel to describe women, you'll get a carefully crafted manifesto all about it.

If you ask anyone else to read that manifesto, they will stop halfway through and refuse to even indulge it any further because it's all nonsense and that's just not how reality works - but trying to explain reality to an incel is an enormous task.

If the incel were capable of deconstructing his malformed worldview and understanding all the misconceptions required for that construction in the first place... then he wouldn't be an incel. It's an incredibly elaborate structure he has constructed to protect himself. Taking that apart is a huge undertaking. It doesn't mean that it's impossible, and it doesn't mean the incel is actually right just because no one wants to read his manifesto or because it would take years to deconstruct that toxic worldview.

Taking a long time to take apart a complicated machine of lies and idiocy is exactly why that machine persists. Because it requires an incredible act of charity and patience - and years of time - to take it apart to rescue the victim trapped inside.

"Tier lists" are like that. It's a machine of lies and memes which protects the fool victim wrapping themselves within it.

Like the Meyers-Briggs personality types. Or astrological starsigns. Or homeopathic remedies. Or libertarianism.

>>3816104
I accept your concession.

>>3816103
What claim? Your lie is literally up there for everyone to read. The post is still visible. We're all reading what you said. There is no claim being made. You said something that was proven wrong. The game system's mechanics were literally linked to already. It's over. You're done.

>>3816106
No one conceded anything. You're done. Leave. You don't get to scramble for whatever tattered scraps of dignity you think you can salvage with your cartoonish posturing. You're done. Go.

>>3816107
>what claim? Your lie is literally up there for everyone to read. The post is still visible.
Shouldn't be hard to quote it, then.

>>3816108
I asked you a simple question, one which you couldn't answer. Thus, I win. Better luck next time!

>>3816098
You know what they do have, though? The ability to swap out any spell for any spell of the same level or lower in a full-round action. The ability to sit down and prepare slots left empty when preparing in a single minute. The ability to refresh any spell slot they spent as a free action once per day. Spell school powers if you specialized in one or gained them through other means, some of which are stupidly overpowered. Infinite use cantrips that matter at low levels, the one time you probably will run out of spells. And those are just the PF extras. You've still got magic items to buffer your spells per day out just like in 3.5 and they're even easier to make.

>>3816104
Reminder that 3.5's Monk was so bad it got a half-dozen not-Monks to replace it and the best Monk never took more than 2 levels in it. Reminder that Pathfinder's Monk and Rogue were so bad they both got new versions in Pathfinder Unchained.

>>3816086
My favorite addition is still Investigator. Great class, plays very well with Kingmaker's regular use of skill checks.

>>3816115
Unchained Monk is exactly the same as original Monk, though. What they changed was to make lots of the optional feats part of the ki powers list so you could buy them without spending feats. It wasn't really worth an entirely new printing.
Unchained Rogue was an extremely ill-advised capitulation to the whining of selfish assholes on their forums who wanted Rogues to have things that should never have existed in the first place. Specifically, they wanted dex to damage so that they could ignore the entire concept of ability scores. It throws out the main premise of the underlying game engine, and weapon finesse should never even have existed. It's been at the heart of so many problems with combat right from beginning. So Unchained Rogue completely breaks the system in irreparable ways if you allow it. Fortunately you can just ban it and require the original Rogue instead.

So you're presenting a false narrative once again. You're lying once again.

They weren't "bad". Monk got updated to expand its class features to include the feats that only they really could qualify to buy in the first place, so now they don't have to buy them with feats if they want to buy them with ki power slots instead. The toxic minority in the community forced a weakened and beleaguered publisher to do something profoundly toxic to the game because the veteran game designers were gone and replaced by a few kids who didn't know what they were doing.

Don't try to manipulate context and lie by omission when you're talking to someone who actually knows something about the topic.

>>3816112
And you're manipulating context and lying by omission there, too.

This time you'll get to provide the links to those features on the SRD so that everyone can see. You'll get the chance to prove you're being completely honest. Go on. Give the links.

Then we'll talk about the ways those features actually work.

Let's start with preparing empty spell slots in a single minute. Because we all know that normally it takes at minimum fifteen minutes to prepare any spell slot (1 hour to prepare all spell slots).

You're talking about Fast Study which is not a class feature, it's a Discovery that you have to spend a feat slot to buy and you have to be wizard level 5 before you can buy it.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/fast-study

That's the one you mean. Isn't it. Go ahead and tell me that isn't the one you mean... go on. I dare you.

And then we'll talk about how that isn't in the Owlcat Kingmaker game...

>people are still arguing the fact of 3.5x caster supremacy 22 years later
Guys I just got my Improved Pooping feat which lets me poop without taking 1d6 bleeding damage and getting covered in poop 1/day! The wizard meanwhile learned Create Demiplane and Summon Angel Waifu Harem, but that's ok because I have magic items...which the wizard is still better at using, because the only stat he needs is INT so he has 16 CHA to my 8 since I needed those points for every single physical stat as well as some WIS for will saves. But only incels would say that I'm inferior, because I get to stand in place and full attack sometimes when the wizard doesn't completely trivialize the encounter with a spell or two. And even then Cleric and Druid are hilariously better than me at standing and full attacking while also getting spells to actually do things. Also my pathetic self is still so superior to Monk that an unarmed version of me is considered the right way to play a fist fighter

>>3816147
>Unchained Monk is exactly the same as original Monk
Style strikes, one of which solves a problem the Monk has had since 3.0.
Stunning Fist auto-scales with alternate effects
d10 HD and full BAB instead of d8 HD and fake full BAB while flurrying or grappling.
Flurry of Blows isn't fake TWF, doesn't stick you with 1.0x STR bonus no matter what, doesn't hit you with a penalty.
No compatibility with chained Monk archetypes, unique archetypes.
This is a different class from the original. No, the Unchained Rogue does not break the game you delusional idiot.

>>3816150
You're asking for sources now. Gladly.
>You're talking about Fast Study which is not a class feature
Nope. Effortless Magic.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizard-archetypes/pact-wizard-wizard-archetype
>Although a pact wizard still uses a spellbook to prepare his wizard spells, his close ties with his otherworldly patron allow him to do so nearly effortlessly. A pact wizard can prepare all of his spells in only 15 minutes, and his minimum preparation time is only 1 minute.

>the pernicious and selfish rogue players whinged their way into breaking the game by...dealing a couple more damage dice when they can flank, not having to take a mandatory feat tax in the form of weapon finesse, and maybe having the ability to occasionally do something interesting that mostly amounts to a level 1 wizard spell 1/day
>t. caster player
lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw
Forever relevant to class balance discussions.

>>3816204
BMX Bandit isn't good at using his class.

You know this whole thing where two dudes crawl progressively further up their own assholes competing not to determine who is right or wrong but who can be more of a cunt about their opinion has been a blast, but can we talk about the actual videogame rather than shit that doesn't apply to it

>>3816214
Exploiter Wizard does apply. It's in CotW.

Monk and Rogue are bad? If those are bad, tell me how unbelievably shit Barbarian is

>>3816268
you don't understand buildtard tierlist autism
not absolute best=bad

>>3816270
I cannot understand how something as worthless as Armored Hulk can go two games, and like 20 patches and still be the absolute bottom barrel of terrible archetypes

>>3816275
somebody who matters would have to play it first

>>3816270
No.

>>3816268
Barbarian is way better than either, but those aren't the Monk and Rogue in Kingmaker or CotW, those are the Unchained versions which are much better. Barbarian is good, it's just dunked on by Bloodrager in every way.

>>3816293
bad post

>>3795796 (OP)
I've had this game for 5 (?) years and still haven't solved varnhold's vanishment

>>3816310
>he quit at the best part

>>3816310
Anon. ... Please. Please. Please, anon. Please just... oh my god. Play the fucking game, would you.

>>3816443
Watching paint dry is more fun

>>3816294
That's wild. That someone would even say that. Bloodrager is infamous for being absolutely awful and worse than straight Barbarian in every way. Like. It's not even a debate, it was settled and proven years ago that the Bloodrager that ended up getting published was botched.

>>3816270
Exactly. Not being able to exploit bad interpretations of some obscure gimmick from an outdated and unpopular splatbook to break the math is bad. Or that one time you convinced the GM to allow you to use Minor Image to create timeless demiplanes from which you could cast infinite spells in a round...

For the children reading this shit, if anyone mentions "tiers" to you, fucking ignore them. They're full of shit. And it's one of the specific things I look for when vetting applicants looking to play at my table.

>>3816445
And yet you're here....

>>3816446
Bloodrager is literally Barbarian minus its worst feature and a single HD bump downward with spells and bloodline powers in place of rage powers. And you can still take rage powers as a Bloodrager, so they don't even have that. It's literally only Trap Sense and d10 HD. Absolutely nobody said Bloodrager was worse than Barbarian in every way, they said Barbarian was worse than Bloodrager. You'd have to be fucking stupid to think a d12 HD is better than 4th level casting you don't even have to spend actions on.

>>3816046
>Blackleaf is dead
I understood that reference

>>3816493
Fucking gold. Like most of Trump's rape victims, it never gets old.

>>3816446
Man what the fuck are you talking about, can you stop making up some universal consensus you then get to speak for

>>3816046
>It's got nothing to do with what weapon you want to try to do it with. Chopping trolls into chunks only makes more trolls.
Wrong.
>>Those who commonly battle with trolls know to locate and burn any pieces after a fight, for even the smallest scrap of flesh can regrow a full-size troll given enough time.
>>Fortunately, only the largest part of a troll regrows in this way.

>>3815969
entire pitax scenario REALLY makes it clear how much your protagonist should be a face character with persuasion. you can turn the entire city against the fucker.

>>3816046
I specifically remember using Coup de Grace specifically once, and it was to deal with Crag Linnorm in that Bridge over the Gudrin River cave because I was doing it much earlier than expected and was without means to end the fucker.

how do I make 20 levels of Monk good?

>>3816727
Substitute 19 of them for another class.

>>3795796 (OP)
Why would I play as any other class combination than a cleric + wizard mystic theurge who advances the river kingdom’s magical knowledge for the glory of Nethys?

>>3816786
it's funny because your alignment matters much more than anything else

>>3816803
True Neutrality is surprisingly optimal. You can bypass the bullshit with the kobolds and mites and monoliths are the best unique village-level alignment specific building as you can place it in any slot.

>>3816803
>>3816817
Alignments do get some good bits sprinkled here and there.

>>3816673
Can you? You didn't like it when your bullshit got called out? You don't even recognize when you're being openly mocked, so don't try to comment about game design when you need an alarm set on your phone to remind you to breath.

>>3817110
You like to project a lot, don't you?

>>3816786
>end up with a dystopian hellscape where undead labourers have taken everyone's jobs, unchecked magical experimentation and waste dumps are everywhere, and a hundred cults are all feuding with each other

>>3816786
Speaking as someone who made an attempt at doing just that... because mystic theurge somehow sucks even more ass in the game than it does in tabletop, and I don't mean 'sucks' in terms of raw power, I mean sucking in terms of any enjoyability for most of the game.
At least I could passably cope through Ecclesitheurge, Nethys's domains give quite a few Wizard spells with that. It was that or Scroll Savant and using divine items, but... well, they don't get the deity selection without mods, and WITH mods the question of class choice is whole different beast altogether.
My first plan for Nethys was actually Monster Tactician Inquisitor, it seemed fitting, but man, that gets repetitive as fuck.

>>3816803
>>3816817
Does anything other than PS:T use alignments that much?

Anyone else also only play clerics/paladins of one of the actual deity options during Religion Rank 5?
Like I'm not going to play a religious character only to then go "Okay so my state is going to worship someone completely different".

So I always play a follower of either Abadar or Asmodeus. No clue why they made fucking Gorum a choice over like Erastil but whatever.

>>3817173
Who knows. You do, for sure, though.

>>3817336
It does feel like shit, yes. But there are some exceptions... not complete, as the framing of the choice is stupid and that can't be fixed, but partial exceptions all the same.
Erastil, in-lore, doesn't care to have grand temples built in his name unless it's a site of great spiritual significance, and even massive population centers often have tiny shrines to him located where people live rather than a dedicated temple - your kingdom would already be a notable exception if you rebuilt the Temple of the Elk. I believe Jhod, if you have him as your High Priest, even uses that very explanation for why building a temple in the city is a poor choice... though he does NOT explain why that prevents you from declaring Erastil the patron deity of the kingdom as a whole anyway. Oh well.
Nethys's temples usually double as places of magical study or knowledge preservation, and as it happens you get both Nethys's Academy AND Library of Nethys as building options from other rank-ups. It's doubtful his devoted worshipper would take too much issue with that. Could always justify it as appeasing the unwashed nonmagical masses. Many Nethys worshippers look down on those.
Those are the big ones, where you can have a very good lore excuse and in-game tradeoff. Then we need to squint a little with Gozreh (temples always built away from civilization, which is outside the scope of city-building, and you still make Sacred Grove if neutral and all, so you could probably justify it that way; besides a lot of the locations in the Stolen Lands probably count as remarkable to his faithful) and Rovagug (fuck everything, temples are gay, do NOT build one, etc; but then just PLAYING a Rovagug worshipper and resettling the Stolen Lands is a goddamn mindbender of a roleplay, so not having him as designated deity choice is the least of your worries).

And then there's fucking Lamashtu where you can sneakily make her a patron god at Religion 9 but can't worship her yourself lmao

>>3817336
>Like I'm not going to play a religious character only to then go "Okay so my state is going to worship someone completely different".
There's a fuckton of gods in Golarion. It's not that strange.

>>3817349
>Lamashtu
YES YES

>>3817336
>be a worshipper of Groetus/Zon-Kuthon/Rovagug
>yeah, this seems like a great guy to build a state religion around

>>3817511
Funny you say that, because Zon-Kuthon is one of the very few openly evil deities that has a whole state follow him as chief (only?) deity, namely Nidal, because he personally shielded them from the Earthfall.
Now, there's a huge gap between "literal apocalypse" and "resettling some wack-ass fey infested woods" as far as motivation/desperation but there's precedent. Not to mention a few other nations also allow his priesthood to operate openly.
But Rovagug is wack, and Groetus doesn't even have organized worship in the first place.

>>3817518
kek, fair, but I think as far as motivations for worship go him personally saving your entire civilization from the apocalypse in an unholy pact is pretty high up there. How would establishing Zon-Kuthon worship in the Stolen Lands even work, "alright, now we're all going to worship this personified nightmare because I say so"? I can't imagine there's a significant amount of his followers already there. At least Asmodeus and even Lamashtu have positive facets that could conceivably persuade people to adopt them as a state religion.

>>3817534
Didn't say it'd be an easy sell, just that there's precedent. And besides, to play Kyton's advocate here, there's a lot to Zon-Kuthon and his worshippers that could work to assuage the immediate revulsion - there's a reason he's Lawful Evil, and that his worshippers (aside from the most psychotic) are either extremely good at blending in where they're reviled, or coexisting just fine with everyone else if they're allowed to operate openly. Sure, unlike the Asmodeans they don't have the easy excuse ("no bro we're just about the law and contracts and stuff haha it's like Abadar you know") but they do have excuses in general. Far as evil deities go he's among the least combative, just doing his own thing, and the same goes for most of his clergy. They'd rather torture a willing subject than capture a rando, it's just that 'willing' probably means 'agreed to it without understanding just how bad it would get and that there's no safe word'. Even if you look at his Divine Obedience in the tabletop, it specifies a willing subject... or a slave, but you know, River Kingdoms.

Setting all that aside, since all the excuses in the word won't make knock-off Cenobites any less creepy to the majority (for very good reasons), it's not like picking Abadar suddenly means people like Jhod need to go fuck themselves and bow down to city supremacy, or whatever. Golarion is a polytheistic setting, nations like Nidal where there's one single allowed deity are very much an exception. At most you'd have a huge part of the population weirded out that the Baron decided to plop down a cathedral filled with BDSM gear and staffed with leatherman weirdos and then proceed to just pray to whatever the fuck they used to before that, just like with every other 'chief deity' option. More often than not that kind of thing is symbolic. Arguably it'd be easier to overlook than Lamashtu (her having an existing cult aside) because at least his priests aren't saying "monsters are cool actually".

I made an Armored Hulk/Stalwart Defender, as a joke. It is every bit as awful as claimed

>>3817682
I'm always amazed. I mean it's one thing for Pathfinder itself to have a lot of shit options, it's so bloated that it's inevitable. But Owlcat had to pick and choose what to include, and for some reason decided on some real fucking garbage.

Wish there was like some mod to convert WotR game play to Kingmaker

>mfw final chapter as casters
t-thanks, lantern king

>>3817987
If you survived through House at the Edge of Time you're ready for anything.

>>3806510
Speaking of DLC, why is Beneath The Stolen Lands such ass? Fighting the Spawn boss at the end is the only standout part.

>>3817998
>weak integration into the main story.
>overreliance on RNG killing all sense of wonder.
>extremely stale rewards

>get 'filtered' by 'Kingmaker'
Lariantranny is burden

>>3817998
It’s just an extra dungeon to get bonus loot/experience and have something to do between chapters, it’s fine for what it is.

>>3817998
I prefer the whole roguelike DLCs, I have build autism

What's the castest caster in Kingmaker? I just want peak magical supremacy here. Not just the class, specific archetype, and ideally some actual reasoning.

>>3795796 (OP)
>a month later
You still playing, OP? How's it going?

>>3818273
Roll a pure wizard, completely vanilla, human, 18 int. Just a dude casting spells and fucking shit up. Don’t need some lame face or cheesy archetype. Merely raw arcane ability.

>>3818278
Not to mention game is perfectly playable as pure class on normal and that's with keeping default companion progression.

>>3818273
>most OP caster
Sylvan Sorceror. Animal companions are bullshit and they get a full strength one while still being a sorcerer. It's so OP it's the easiest solo class in the game.
>most OP at casting
Thassilonian Specialist. Sorc spells per day without its gimped spell level progression.

Speaking of magic, man, I wish summoning wasn't so fucking lame in this. They even give you archetypes focused on it, yet they haven't bothered implementing it in a way that's worthwhile beyond getting a few meatshields on the field. The lack of control renders some of the high-level summons near worthless because they never make the most of what they have, one option per summon level is lame as fuck (but then, the only cRPG I can think of that actually gave you a selection is fucking ToEE), you get no interesting ones anyway.
I know, I know, Call of the Wild adds Summoner and a bunch of feats, and ToyBox can let you set summons as controllable, that's neat and all, but even then a few issues remain and mods are hardly the answer especially when CotW was made by a dude with his head too far up his ass to hear criticisms, too high on his farts to even acknowledge his balance opinions may not be objectively correct, and too autistic to refrain from forcing them down people's throats in a single player game. Also it's bloated to fuck, but that's just Pathfinder.

>>3818491
they're just meat shields

Boys I'm aeon rank 4 and it is just miles behind merged lich or angel. Is it supposed to be just worse? Feels like it doesn't have nearly as much to it as lich or angel

>>3795869
Almost all computerRPG are like that.
The original material is always an unbalanced mess. Which makes the endgame's encounter a painful slog.
The writer are fucking clueless, and don't know how to wrap up the open-ended story; Nor give each character arc a proper sense of closure.

All Larian games suffers from that.
All Owlcat games suffer from that.
All Bethesda games suffer from that.

It's nothing new under the sun.

>>3818567
Auto dispel is pretty cool I guess

>>3817998
BTSL is fun as a dedicated mode but not as part of the campaign.

>>3817998
If you think that's bad, the WotR equivalent will make you kill yourself.

>>3818491
>summon Axiomites
>forgot to cast protection from electricity

>>3818567
Angel and Lich are full-casters. Aeon has half casting. Most of its power is in the uber dispel. Just a reminder that past mid game dispel is mandatory in every significant fight. Aeon also gets buffs and debuffs it broadcasts, but they're not game-changing like its dispel is.
If you're going for Devil you have to go through Aeon, I believe. But Devil is fucking garbage so...

>>3817987
like anon said the actual last stretch is a joke compared to the house at the edge of time. debuff sucks, but it gets better as you advance.

>>3818636
>the WotR equivalent will make you kill yourself.
masaka

>>3806510
>>3816310
>mfw the General character from Varnhold's Lot shows up in Maegar's part in the finale to help

>>3795796 (OP)
>1 month ago
How's it going champ? Do you need help?

>>3818730
You forget you'll have to deal with Wild Hunt in the ruined kingdom part again. To a much lesser degree, but I absolutely HATE those fuckers. It's like having Haste turned on me all the time and low Reflex saves, guaranteed for casters, will fuck you up.

>>3806513
>>3818773
Not only have I been around all the time, kept playing the game, but I actually beat it today. It probably wouldn't have happened without this thread motivating me.

>>3818834
AWW SWHIIIEEEET

>>3818834
>It probably wouldn't have happened without this thread motivating me
sad

>>3818839
It's just a big game. Took me 200 hours.

>>3818842
yeah, took me 150. the motivation comes from the game itself being fun. why finish a game you don't like?

>>3818844
Never said I didn't like that game. Just hard to stay focused on one game for that long. I guess I need more CRPG experience in general.

>>3818834
>It probably wouldn't have happened without this thread motivating me.
put us in the credits of your video, anon

>>3818848
how can you say you like something if you can't stay focused on it? games are enjoyment, not work, if you need motivation to play a game then you can't say you enjoy it fully. sounds like you have some fried receptors, i'd really suggest unplugging from the internet and your smartphone for a while.

>>3818842
>200
>in roughly a month
assuming you have a job those are good weekly numbers. well done.

>>3818738
it's bullshit there's in-built romance with varn so you're supposed to play as a female character to get the most out of it

>>3818834
So what did you like and dislike the most?

>>3818858
At least they didnt make Varn a faggot

>>3818738
Was cool. People shit on the side content DLC like that, but I kind of enjoyed it and wish they kept doing it. It's nice to have lower level adventures with side characters that can tie into the main game. I wish Owlcat did one for Rogue Trader. A separate campaign where you play as a group of lower level rabble on the ship and deal with a cult trying to assassinate the Rogue Trader or something could be fun.

>>3818834
You know what to do next.

>>3818850
NTA, but I'll have you know some people 'functioned' that way far before they ever had access to the internet and nothing will ever fix it
Have some sympathy for the abnormal, Anon

>>3818861
Everyone in the thread basically nailed it already. I never really had much trouble with anything in the game, aside from random difficulty spikes you're supposed to tackle later on, until I got to the House at the Edge of Time which was just pure fucking bullshit. And then Owlcat brought back those absolutely insufferable Fey enemies in the finale as well.

how do I increase my CMD so I never get tripped again?

>>3795796 (OP)
Why are Kingmaker’s companions so terrible? Even the ones that have tolerable dialogue still have cringe inducing backstories or go through some shoe-horned betrayal arc simply because.

>>3819186
Maneuver defense is based on your BAB. Then you add in your strength. You can add other things depending on your feats and class features. When you take various combat maneuver feats to give you +2 on your attempt to perform the maneuver it also gives you +2 on defending against that maneuver. Some casters gets feats that let them calculate their CMB as if their BAB were equal to their HD (which becomes huge late game because the difference between full BAB and half BAB is 10 at level 20).

I'm not entirely certain if Freedom Of Movement makes you immune to Trip... It's not even really clear to me in the tabletop RAW, but in this video game it matters how they coded it. I don't think I've ever noticed any of my characters getting tripped ever. So I haven't noticed if the buff works against it. I'm honestly a little mystified what you're fighting that's tripping you.

>>3819233
How very fucking dare you disrespect Harrim and Ekun like that.

>>3819233
>go through some shoe-horned betrayal arc simply because.
what?

>>3795869
I've finished the game twice, second time was completionist and took ~200 hours. This game has problems, but I haven't played an RPG since that scratched the itch like PFKM.

>>3819359
The NWN2 OC is sort of similarly "archetypical fantasy adventure" without being grimdank or anime. It even has a sort of "build your fort" moment later in the campaign, but it's definitely not neeeeearly a focus like Kingmaker. It's also not open-navigation, really.

A lot of the early complaints about Kingmaker were that people wanted to explore and do everything before progressing the story. Which meant they'd wander into areas they weren't prepared for, since they believed that any location they had access to would be a fair challenge to them. In fact some of those optional areas are possible to do at the level you can get there... but only for extremely optimized parties and players who know what they're doing.

If Owlcat can be blamed for any wrongdoing in that regard, it's just that they didn't really have a graceful way to put warning signs on the optional challenge bosses (like the will-o-wisp ambush at the Sycamore campsite or the owlbears behind the bushes in the Old Beldame's areas).

Other than Octavia being insufferable and Regongar's voice amateur actor, I think Kingmaker is a fucking amazing game. A masterpiece every bit as worthy of praise as anything Larian or Obsidian have ever done.

>>3819366
I think the source material ensues it lacks tonal focus. You almost forget there's supposed to be a single narrative behind and as each chapter is its own story.

>>3819440
I don't agree at all. There definitely is a consistent tone and there definitely is a consistent narrative which is supported in each chapter.

If you don't understand how each chapter is about one of the kingdoms Nyrissa has been involved with creating and then destroying, then you're a fucking MORON and you need to shut the FUCK up, oh my fucking god.

Book 1 is about the Stag Lord, whose nascent kingdom is seated in the little fort he has built... which you then seize for yourself, killing the previous tyrant and establishing your own nation directly in its place. The fate of the two little kingdoms beneath the Sycamore are less set in stone.

Book 2 is about the neighbor nation forming under the banner of a troll ruler, cooperating with a certain kobold manipulator who whips the otherwise wild and stupid trolls into developing towards this path. That you direct your entire nation to wage war in defense of yourself before you personally get involved to assassinate the troll kingdom's rulers only legitimizes it even further (regardless of whether you subsume or destroy them).

I hope you can follow that from here. Let me know if you need the later books explained.

>>3819482
Imagine getting this defensive over nothing

>>3819330
>Ekun
Ah yes, the DEI nigger with a forced forgiveness quest who worships a dwarven god despite being some random human.
>Harrim
Extremely against type dwarf who hates his family and wants to kill himself.

>>3819484
I respect Ekun. Dude just kills. And talks. Like this.

>>3819233
>Why are Kingmaker’s companions so terrible?
What do you mean? You don't appreciate the pure ice queen going "I've never felt this way about anyone... except when this random mercenary used to fuck me every night."?

>>3819233
>implying my Valerie didn't join the Hellknight
According to the talking book, armor fits

>>3819483
It doesn't look defensive. Looks like that annoyance about an idiot spreading stupidity / misinformation, and firmly correcting it.

thats it im replaying kinomaker, also I can't believe a such a large amount of the playerbase hasn't even fought the lantern king

>>3795796 (OP)
How do you deal with the Blizzard elemental taking up half the screen?

>>3819981
Zoom out. If that isn't enough, get toybox and use the camera unlocks to zoom out.

>>3819484
'arrim is based.
Ekun I could tolerate if he didn't have marty stu 31 point buy. The character itself is not bad.

>>3819339
Tristian sucks ass

>>3819993
He's mostly ok, it's just that conversations with him are extremely monotonic. No real variation from his "gentle priest burdened by darkness" whining. The "betrayal" arc feels insanely melodramatic since ultimately the entire thing is "she magically enchanted me and forced me to do stupid shit".

Like, come on. This is a setting where peasants use magic to wash their fucking clothes. Charm Person is a level 1 spell. Let's not pretend that it's some kind of unique and complicated situation. No one really knows how to navigate this moral quandary! It's just soooooooooo difficult! Oh my god these fucking feeeeeeeelingggggs!

Tristian, shut the fuck up and cast Death Ward and True Seeing then go home and wash your pussy. We'll be home in time for dinner, so make sure it's ready for us. Fuck.

>>3820009
True, I meant personality wise mostly, his class is pretty strong were it not for his domains.

>>3820011
He doesn't have the worst domains. Other than Luck and Travel all domains kind of suck in PF1e, so he might as well have fireball for the swarms.

>>3819634
You would say that, wouldn't you
Nobody ever admits to being defensive, overreacting, or anything of the sort

>>3819504
I appreciate the fact the same bait has been used for this long, that's tradition for you

>>3820009
>peasants use magic to wash their fucking clothes
Depending on the nation/area
You have to remember PF is a schizosetting where low magic mudcore coexists with magitek and pulp dinosaur jungles and cyber-barbarians and classic horror and and and
The problem is that when you actually take all of that together rather than in complete isolation NO problem is special, worth any reaction beyond "oh I see" and in most cases, not worth giving a shit about at all because either it can't be fixed or will get fixed in a week by a rando

>>3820864
It's kinda pointless to hypothesize about the emotional state of an anonymous poster rather than responding to their thoughts directly.

>>3818834
>anon delivered
goddamn

>>3819990
Really out of place for Harrim to even stick with you after defeating the Stag Lord since he’s doing the opposite of his god’s goals by helping you build up civilization. He even expresses how disappointed he is if he’s your high priest and you reach max level divine since your people are attaching themselves to existence rather than letting go.

>>3819167
It's like that in the tabletop AP, too. But that's because by the time you're level 18 in the tabletop, you've been literally running a country for a few years... which means you have absolutely INSANE wealth for perfect gear and infinite consumables. Like. Several million in gold PER PLAYER CHARACTER.... Optimized nations could produce an arbitrary amount of gold / items in that time span.

With that much money, True Resurrection trivializes anything short of an actual total party kill. The end of Kingmaker is an actual implementation of a scenario literally often referenced and used as an object lesson about what NOT to allow your players to do if you're a GM. The reason Kingmaker was so popular as an AP is because it gave players an excuse to do the specific thing they've never been allowed to do.

So if you think the end of Kingmaker is obnoxious, that's because it has to be in order to pose any challenge at all. It isn't difficult, if you have been paying attention to the gameplay up to that point. You'll have plenty of scrolls of greater restoration and true resurrection and stuff like that.

And for GMs reading this, don't run Kingmaker. Run Jade Regent instead.

>>3806506
It's a great way to teach kids about the dangers of misinformation. When stripped of all context, yeah I guess technically the game has a "time limit". Just like you have a time limit. Just like the universe has a time limit. No one's running around in a panic because our sun is gonna explode in four billion years.

If you rest for 24 full hours THREE TIMES ... in EVERY point of interest on the ENTIRE map... you still won't run out of time in Kingmaker. You have waaaaaaaay more than enough time to get everything done. The "time limit" is a formality. It's more like a plot effect that forces the story to continue before your kingdom's development gets out of hand. Could it have been done in a different way? Yeah, it could have been triggered when your kingdom reaches certain stats. But that's not how the tabletop AP was written, and more importantly, it wouldn't make any sense for the actual story itself.

Literally the whole plot revolves around this time counting from beginning to end.

That it's sooooooo lenient is the real immersion-breaking thing. But if you tried to make a mod to shorten the time limits to actually pose some kind of semblance of pressure with it, you'd get lynched...

>>3822725
He's not assertive enough to quit.

>>3822803
I just makes me wish someone would adapt more APs.
>Dragon's Demand
Not that one, though.

>>3822803
nta but what I don't like is facing numerous fast enemies with high bab. add haste to the mix and it turns into facing an optimized party.

>>3823306
Dragon's Demand isn't an AP it's just a single book module.
Curse Of The Crimson Throne would be a good one, but they couldn't do Skull & Shackles because Deadfire already exists. I don't really have a problem with Reign Of Winter but the last parts with real world Earth Russia would turn a lot of players off.
Strange Aeons would be fantastic. Ruins Of Azlant, Iron Gods and Ironfang Invasion would also be absolutely fantastic.

>>3823312
You gotta learn about dispel, anon. Dispel and Slow are the two most powerful effects in the game and always have been. Nothing else even comes close in priority.

>>3818491
This is pf1e problem. Owlcats intentionally made it looks like just like from tg. Paizo delayed progression of summoning forbidding 20lvl wiz summmon 2lvl demon like in dnd 3.5, they allowed 14lvl max cap

>>3823453
But that's just false. The flexibility in summons in the source is massive, and most of the options are vastly superior to what you get in the game both in power and appeal. Summon Monster II can already summon a devil (just a Lemure, but a devil nonetheless) and by IV you have Hellhounds and Mephits, compared to Kingmaker's... dire wolf. The lamest possible option from that spell's list, since even in terms of just animals you could go with a Dire Ape or Grizzly Bear instead.
PF doesn't have an inherent problem with summoning being boring. That's entirely on Owlcat.
And since you bring up a level 20 wizard, while technically Summon Monster IX has only Glabrezu (CR13 and 12HD) or Nalfeshnee (CR14 and 14HD), at that point you're not using those, you're using Greater Planar Binding which has a limit of 18, not 14HD, or fucking Gate, which has a limit of fucking 40HD by level 20.
(Kingmaker, of course, has neither Planar Binding or Gate, not even the limited versions that games like NWN had that just functioned as improved Summon spells with potential risks)

>>3823478
In a tabletop environment, the GM is an actual person who can respond to changing contexts. In a video game, it would be possible to abuse the enemy AI with wacky shenanigans and gimmicks. It's already borderline cheating to get the enemy to waste their turn on a summoned dog instead of ignoring the dog to kill you.

So just the functionality as a distraction is already an overwhelmingly powerful exploit that makes summoned creatures game-breaking.

Do you need tabletop levels of insanity like summoning Balors? No. No you don't. And that sort of thing is more like a plot effect in tabletop anyway, because I absolutely do not tolerate minionmancer bullshit in my games. You drop ten summons on my battle grid, everyone on the map is gonna ignore them to instagib the summoner who just clogged up the initiative tracker. Because they can communicate with each other and they have an intelligence score and it would make no sense for them to do anything else.

But mostly because you just clogged up the initiative tracker.

>>3823560
Killing the summoner doesn't end summons though.

>>3823560
I mean that's nice and mostly true but it also has literally nothing to do with my post, or the original poster's complaint (that being 'summons in Kingmaker are lame')
So I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here

>>3823560
>the summons are shit on purpose bro it's all good
fucking owlcattle

>>3823566
I didn't say it did. But it helps to apply pressure in the long-term. Don't want to get focused? Don't make yourself the focus. When you summon a billion trash minions, you're monopolizing the entire fucking table just to resolve your turn. Not cool. And characters in-game notice it when a dozen demons appear after you did your little magic dance.
It would be completely ridiculous for characters in-game to ignore what just happened and pretend that they don't know what a conjurer is.

>>3823586
No, you do not get to break the game with your shitty gimmick exploiter build. And you are not a victim just because your game-breaking exploit got patched out. Shut the fuck up and go back to your goonsock and loli gacha idle clicker games.

>>3823578
The summons aren't lame. They're game-breaking. They aren't able to solo the boss, but that's because they shouldn't be able to. The complaint was invalid, based upon an invalid premise. And I showed that it was invalid.

So, no, I did address the complaint. Very directly, in fact. That's what I accomplished. Try reading for comprehension next time, not just clicking reply to attack with whatever stream of consciousness you had going on at that moment.

>>3823712
They also notice there are a half-dozen demons on the field capable of fucking them up. Not responding to that is suicidal.

>>3823713
wew

>>3823717
You didn't, because the complaint had nothing to do with just the usefulness of them. But go off king, keep being a smarmy dickweed, you're doing great. Why fucking bother having an actual conversation when you can crawl up your ass and go aggro, right?

>>3823713
be honest, how small is your weewee? i'm getting microdick energy from your posts.

>>3823478
I like summons in worldcrawl mod for wotr. They allow up to 32 cr shit vei being summoned. Kino

Also fuck normies claiming summoning as cheating. They would call everything cheating like free save system or respec of companions.
This is single player game with mc being the hero the one. About him legends spread and him summoning balors at 20 lvl should be banality
Go play your woke pf2e with nerf d magic

>>3823844
So you admit you didn't read. Is that because you can't? Or because you couldn't pass up the opportunity to project? You still don't get to break the game with your gimmick exploits, so nothing you say really matters here.
>>3823877
Why are you so obsessed with everyone else's penis? You will never get to have sex with me. Nor would I ever allow you to be in my presence. Like women, children and gazelles, I'll smell your approach and instinctively flee.

>>3816086
>anti pally
>smite fae
oh this speaks to me. maybe one day.

>>3822808
but at the same time there are timed objectives

>>3824243
Which the comment analyzed and described in great detail at length... and which you would know if you read it... You do know how to read, don't you, anon?

Last for autosage.

>>3824203
>t. smol weewee

>>3816086
>It also works really well with the stuff you get from the Ravenous Queen questline, which seems to be tailor made for an antipaladin despite that not being a class option in vanilla.
Glad I wasn't the only one who had this impression. Forget anti-paladin, there's not even a proper PALADIN in the game.

>>3824397
It's a bump limit.

>>3819233
Companions are an outdated and overdone concept, they should be more like personalities you can add to your own hirelings like in Solasta.

>>3824359
no. talking about specific quests. not the overall chapter time.

>>3795796 (OP)
You're going to need it. That last dungeon is a fucking slog. Next play Wrath of the Righteous. Lich is based.

Could someone post that cloudkill chamber Nyrissa pic?