>lockpicking/hacking mini-games with player skill expression and failure states instead of a binary roll that determines success/failure are... LE BAD
Why? It's not like character skill is automatically exempt or anything. Pic related is a bad example, but I've seen similar criticism towards other games that attempt it.

>>3797894 (OP)
because RPGs are about character skill expression and not player skill expression
I'd go play bioshock or some shit if I wanted minigames bogging down the gameplay

>>3797908
>bioshock
Great game

>>3797908
>I'd go play bioshock or some shit if I wanted minigames bogging down the gameplay
Moron.
The entire point of these short minigames is to do two things
>break up the gameplay for better pacing, so it's not monotonous
>enhance the roleplaying experience, to make it feel like you're actually picking a lock/hacking/etc
Your characters stats or whatever dictate easy these minigames are.
RPGs are not about removing all player skill at all. If it was then shit like combat would be out of your control and your party would just play by itself without your input, since you as a player might not be "skilled" at the combat and tactics.

>>3797915
>break up the gameplay for better pacing, so it's not monotonous
a locked door impeading the player already does this, and solving it with your skills gives the game more reactivity and a better roleplaying experience
>enhance the roleplaying experience, to make it feel like you're actually picking a lock/hacking/etc
that isn't roleplaying, it's a power fantasy. go play a dedicated stealth or hacking game instead
and RPGs actually are about abstracting all of your skills into an avatar's statistics and using your wits to solve problems

>>3797908
>because RPGs are about character skill expression and not player skill expression
Then don't ever select an action command in combat ever again, faggot.

Also, this is objectively untrue.

>>3797920
You didn't address anon's salient argument, which is that combat is just as much an arbiter of "player skill" as a lockpicking mini-game is, except you arbitrarily differentiate the two because you're an insipid, banal faggot.

>>3797928
combat commands are defined by your character sheet within the ruleset, not player skill
>>3797933
they are already differentiated. A mini-game is separated from the actual game and ruleset definitionally

I can't speak for every minigame but that particular one makes every character samey since I was skilled enough to unlock any lock without breaking picks regardless of character skill.
Likewise, if combat is such that I can play as a wizard with no physical prowess and still beat the strongest opponents in a sword fight simply due to my skill as a player it's also not very good and again waters down the difference between characters. Oblivion/skyrim also have that problem since it's so easy to dodge enemy melee attacks and stamina doesn't matter much as you can still attack without it.

>>3797937
I accept your concession

>>3797933
>Uses words like inspid and banal
Somebody did well on their SATs.

>>3797894 (OP)
>Oblivion
The issue isn’t how the lockpicking minigame is designed, it’s that playing a mage is so ridiculously powerful that there’s no reason to ever engage in these minigames for very long due to open spells.
>convoluted speech minigame that’s a pain in the ass to manage
>charms spells let you outright ignore it forever
>weapons break overtime and every weapon skill functions the same as the other, plus gets mogged by highly armored enemies and need silver to even hit magical ones
>bound weapons are weightless, never break, and can never be disarmed
>elemental spells bypass physical armor and can be cast at both range and touch
>armor breaks, needs to be constantly replaced with other gear tiers and weighs more than OP’s mom
>bound armor never breaks, is weightless, and auto equips bypassing inventory management bs
>shield spells can be stacked with bound armor until higher custom spells can be made
>literally every attribute and skill can be boosted through custom spells, alchemy, and enchanting
>chameleon and invisibility allow you to stealth better than stealth archer fags ever will
>warriors need faggy torch to have optimal lighting without potions or spells and it gets unequipped whenever their weapons are readied
>starlight and nighteye allow your hands to be free 24/7, the latter never attracting enemies
Nothing can compete with magical supremacy, it allows you to do everything that every other play style can do but better, more efficiently, and even more than they can.

>>3797894 (OP)
What the fuck is wrong with that AI?
>Pic related is a bad example
You just click when the tumbler and pin speed are the same.

It's incredibly tiresome the nth time you do it in a game that's dozens, hundreds of hours long.

>>3798045
>You just click when the tumbler and pin speed are the same
I think that's why it's a bad example. You can open master locks fresh out of the sewers so your security stat doesn't matter

>>3797908
But that'd be like saying you don't need to aim your sword swings because your Long Blade is at 100

>>3797894 (OP)
It's bad because it changes the focus from decision making towards execution.

>>3798152
I like the variety of having both in a game.

>>3797920
>a locked door impeading the player already does this
No it doesn't. If you walk up to a door and it's says "Locked" with a "Lockpick" button under it and when you press it the door unlocks, that changes literally nothing. It's like having an unlocked door that was closed and you just pressed to open it.
Pacing is about variation. But clearly this topic is beyond you.

>that isn't roleplaying, it's a power fantasy
Wrong retard. Like seriously this is so fucking inhumanely retarded I cannot take you seriously after this point. Like holy fucking shit are you a braindead fucking retard.
Opening a fucking lock as a thief is not a power fantasy. That's part of roleplaying as a thief, that feeling you are indeed playing as a thief.
Just clicking on a door and it open does not make you feel like playing a thief more than if you had a simple lockpicking minigame. Roleplaying is about embracing a specific role and playing it out.
People that are really into LARPing wouldn't just handwave and say "yeah yeah I unlock the door", they would at least pretend to fiddle with the lock because they're fucking roleplaying as a thief.

>and RPGs actually are about abstracting all of your skills into an avatar's statistics and using your wits to solve problems
Fucking wrong again, retard. Jesus fucking christ you're stupid.
One aspect of RPGs is putting more focus on the characters skill over player skill, that does not mean all player skill is removed. It simply means there isn't a focus on player skill. If you think a basic quick minigame like OP takes skill, that says just how insanely dogshit and braindead you are.
Absolutely fuck all about roleplaying has to do with "wits". Wits can be abstracted away as well and often is. You do not need to be intelligent or wise, the character is. There are RPGs where you might not know how to solve a puzzle, riddle or problem but your character has high enough Intelligence so they do it for you.
Fucking christ you're stupid.

>>3798163
Are you still doing that whole "spend paragraphs repeating the same insults when the actual points are like 3 brief sentences" gimmick? Your posts are so tiresome to read.

>>3798167
I already explained it consisely, but since I'm dealing with a retard (you) shit needs to be overexplained. But I also have zero respect and patience for retards, so you deserve all the insults you get.
If you don't like it, try being less retarded. Oh and maybe try to actually refute the points raised.

>>3798169
I'm not the person you're arguing with. Are you so dense you didn't pick up on the fact that I'm only talking about your style?

See, that's concise.

>>3798172
So you're just shitposting while adding negative value to the board, bravo retard #2.

>>3798174
I'm trying to better you, so that when I read your posts in the future I'm not skimming through the repetitive insults to find the meat. At least be funny or vary it up, it's just retard retard retard, like a child who learned a new insult.

Do better, or don't and please start using a trip or avatar or something.

>>3798177
Blame the retards on the board grinding people's patience to the bone.

>>3798045
>>3798068
Security skill does matter as well, so that one depend on both player's and character's skills.

>>3798167
>"spend paragraphs repeating the same insults when the actual points are like 3 brief sentences" gimmick? Your posts are so tiresome to read.
Kek I was going to say this to him earlier but didn't bother.

>>3797915
>The entire point of these short minigames is to do two things
>break up the gameplay for better pacing, so it's not monotonou
if your gameplay has bad pacing and is monotonous you should work on better fundamental gameplay instead of relying on casulesuqe minigames to keep your player engaged
otherwise you end up with bethesdaslop (i.e. literally any bethesda title after morrowind) that is only engaging to the dumbest common denominator

>>3798300
>if your gameplay has bad pacing and is monotonous you should work on better fundamental gameplay
You don't even understand what pacing means in this context and I'm frankly sick and tired of having to explain basic design concepts to people that will just plug their ears to it.

>>3798307
nah
you are just a retard with retarded takes and nothing of substance to say
I accept yours however
thanks for not wasting everyone's time by getting the fuck out and not pasting horrible AI-assisted paragraphs of midwit takes

>>3798324
Ok, explain what you think pacing in this context is and I'll correct you.
Should be simple if you actually know what you're talking about. Or will you just deflect instead?

>>3798300
>if your gameplay has bad pacing and is monotonous you should work on better fundamental gameplay
To a certain extent it's up to the player. Any game can be played monotonously.

>>3798349
>you see instead of putting the generally accepted meaning into X I _aktualy meant_ something entirely different that would have been better communicated by another word altogether but I didn't bother to put enough effort into it [if being capable of doing so at all]
>in fact my ideas are so poorly thought through that I can't even explain what I meant
>so instead I would deflect by inviting you to literally play a guessing game about what I meant by X and to get bogged down into a pointless semantics argument
LMAO
no, fuck off, retard

>>3797894 (OP)
the balance is usually pretty iffy
with oblivion as an ex, if i can go with a lockpick skill of 8 and not break a single pick on a master lock, thats too far in the other direction

>>3798359
First off, there is not "generally accepted meaning", unless you're talking game dev terms, which you're clearly not talking about since it doesn't follow that standard. We're talking game design here.
Second, you are utterly incapable of basic discussion as you clearly demonstrated since you chose to deflect and throw a shitfit.
Third, you could not even explain what you believe to be the "generally accepted meaning", meaning you don't even know or you're too afraid to answer in case you're wrong.
Fourth, you are being downright hypocritical by doing the very thing you accuse someone else of, yet being oblivious to it.
Fifth, you chose to contribute nothing to the discussion and shitpost and namecall instead.

In other words, you're simply not qualified for basic human discussion. So you can go now before you pop a bloodvessel and shit up the thread even further.

>>3798377
spoken like a true retard who is engaged in disingenuous bait

>>3797894 (OP)
Oblivion has both. Auto attempt is influenced by security skill.

Few say they want it to be character skill based, but the fact they CHOOSE to do it manually given the choice is proof they're full of shit.

>>3798425
There are incentives to doing it manually, it means you might break no or fewer lockpicks. Until you get the unbreakable lockpick in which case no one ever does the minigame again.

>>3798444
Lockpicks are more important than roleplaying relying on character skills? Lockpicks that are cheap and found everywhere?

I thought you guys liked "real RPGs".

>>3798451
People hate losing items especially if they don't have to. This is why so many people end up completing games with a bunch of items they were saving in case they needed them later.

>>3798478
Good then that Oblivion has options for all sorts of people. Just pick the one that suits you.

>>3797894 (OP)
My problem is the security skill is largely unrelated to your lockpicking performance, that every lock is identical, and that the game has tons of locked shit everywhere. If you want me to pick hundreds of locks, make them interesting! Give me padlocks, door locks, chest locks. Instead of ten billion weightless locks, give me different tools. Make a mechanic out of it, or make it much more rare only used in the Thieves/part of the Brotherhood questline.

>>3798489
>Make a mechanic out of it
They did, and it's stupid to demand more from an open world RPG that's trying to do a hubdred other things for a well rounded experience.

If you're tired of fucking lockpicking, maybe take a break and play something else.
Try a game dedicated to thieving?

I think I'm living in an alternate timeline because I don't remember anyone saying the lockpicking game was hard or required any skill before the remaster came out. It's so easy, you can unlock very hard locks at whatever skill level if you have even a modicum of patience, just wait for each tumbler to ascend slowly. I used to see funny maymays about the first claw "puzzle" door in skyrim and then I started seeing people who were genuinely confused by it, so I think it might be all the microplastics doing their job.

>>3797915
>TES Lockpicking
>not monotonous

>>3797933
>combat is just as much an arbiter of "player skill" as a lockpicking mini-game is
combat in RPGs is about deciding how to proceed based on your characters' strengths and weaknesses. You can do that with lockpicking too, you make a decision on whether it's worth it to let the character waste time on lockpicking or not based on his skill at it, that tactical decision is all the lockpicking "mini-game" you need.

>>3799604
>you make a decision on whether it's worth it to let the character waste time on lockpicking or not based on his skill at it
In-game time is frozen while you're lockpicking. You're making a decision on whether to waste the time of you, the player

>>3799604
>you make a decision on whether it's worth it to let the character waste time on lockpicking or not based on his skill at it, that tactical decision
Kek name one RPG

>>3799682
Wizard's Crown kind of. Though the time-wasting is mostly an issue if you're being attacked at the same time. If you're just exploring you can keep trying for a while. Though you probably don't want to keep trying and failing until nightfall or something.

gothic lockpicking is an extremely simple memory game but it is purely in real time, has noise associated with it that can wake people up or draw attention, and burns through a valuable consumable

So you have emergent situations like nervously picking the chest at the foot of the bed a guy is sleeping in after sneaking through his house without every getting into some timestopped lockpicking minigame even though the core mechanic of lockpicking is not simulated at all and is a millimeter deep