How would you handle it?
>DEX/AGI does too much to stay as one attribute.
>Wits (and it variations) feels like it was tried several times but never caught on.
>CHA is either broken or useless with no in between.

>>3808113 (OP)
Dexterity literally means "right-handedness," and refers to the ability to manipulate things. It's distinct from Agility, which is the ability to throw your body around. So any DEX/AGI stat should be split into two.
Wits should just be merged with Intelligence, but if this makes INT too powerful, it could be differentiated into Reasoning (ability to work things out), Education (store of knowledge) and Intuition (potential for cognitive leaps and flashes of inspiration.)
Charisma isn't useless if your game system actually uses it. Considering that you interact with NPCs all the time, CHA should be in near-constant use.
Stamina is a measure of physical fitness rather than ability to absorb damage. Resilience in combat is down to sheer Size (which is a stat in Runequest) and Willpower (which is based and should always be used.)

>>3808113 (OP)
>>DEX/AGI does too much to stay as one attribute.
This is a problem in DnD and some of its derivatives and no where else.

>>3808813
>being able to mend watches means you must be good at acrobatics

>>3808113 (OP)
>DEX/AGI does too much to stay as one attribute
For me, it’s dexterity and sinisterness.

>>3808821
If you're complaining about stat implications every single stat has those when you tie each stat to an immutable list of skills. Pick your battles,

>>3808113 (OP)
all depends on setting.
game without magic doesn't need willpower and dungeon crawl doesn't need charisma.

>>3808113 (OP)
I like substats to stats: like Dexterity breaks down into Hand-eye Ordination, Agility, Speed, etc.
Rizz breaks down into looks, charm, intensity, etc.
We can make these things more complicated now that we live in the Future and aren't limited by 1980s game computing & design heuristics; like HP is an over simplification of health that we got lazily used to. Same goes for the rest of the stats.

>>3809116
Why is more complex automatically good? Just because you can make something more complex doesn't mean you always should

In early RPGs, DEX and AGI are just different names for the same stat.

>>3808808
>Charisma isn't useless if your game system actually uses it.
My point is that it is either really strong or really weak.

>>3808970
GURPS only has 4 attributes where IQ & DX cost twice the amount of ST & HT. IQ does way too many things at once. Also strangely, HP is determined by ST not HT.

>>3808113 (OP)
A Beauty stat was never really interesting . The separation of Charisma and Manipulation doesn't really make much sense. I think that Will makes more sense as a split from CHA. Will is supposed to be an aspect of CHA.

>>3808985
Out of the classic 6 stats, Wisdom has the most confusing name. Daggerheart decided to call it Instinct which is better but it makes weird for Clerics. WIS has the most interesting evolution. Wizardry and most JRPGs turn WIS into Piety or Faith which became Mind (for some reason) which dictates Magic def, healing, & MP regen. Fallout turn it to PER which made it purely about senses.

Wits should probably be renamed as Composure since it is supposed to be a defensive stat but people would expect some overlap with CHA.

>>3809244
Because I'm tired of shit being dumbed down and I'm smart enough to handle the complexity/depth in games.
What's your excuse for making games simpler?

>>3809286
>A Beauty stat was never really interesting . The separation of Charisma and Manipulation doesn't really make much sense. I think that Will makes more sense as a split from CHA. Will is supposed to be an aspect of CHA.
nWoD/CoD Storytell_ing attribute system is a straight up upgrade over Storyteller
the matrix of
>physical
>mental
>social
x
>raw power
>finesse
>defense
is intuitive, works well in game and makes actual sense
it's probably my favorite attribute system [as isolated from the rest of the game]

>>3809308
>I'm smart enough
you are dumb and that's not depth

>>3809286
>Daggerheart decided
to fix the INT/WIS confusion while introducing the AGI/FIN confusion
I swear to god Daggerheart is the second worst system I've ever read
and Spenser Starke makes an impression of a certified mental retard

It's going to be funny as hell when the marketing budget dries up and DH will be shifted into candela obscurity [see what I did there?]

>>3809308
Why would you not go for simplicity if it makes sense? Complexity should never be a goal, it's completely pointless to only want things to be complex so you can say you're not dumb. Things should be as simple as necessary for the design goals. Why would you spend 1000 lines of code on what could be achieved in 5?

If your reason for making a mechanic more complex is "I am very smart" you're making a dumb decision. A dozen substats for each stat just increases number management in a vacuum. I play dungeon crawl stone soup sometimes. That game wouldn't be improved if its 3 stats became 10, it would get in the way of what are meant to be simple baseline mechanics. Having fewer stats was a deliberate decision that moved the game closer to its design goals.

You'll never get video games to completely model reality, so you really need to pick and choose when you decide what to abstract and simplify.

>>3809326
>t. your argument for simplicity/yourself

>>3809329
Because reality has a certain complexity that frankly makes living interesting, exciting, and hard to pin down even for the smartest and dumbest of peoples here. I enjoy the complexities of life and the microcosms of it that get expressed in games. I think this a fair defense for my desire of more complexity in games from old basic design concepts from a past era where the game engines couldn't handle that kinda depth.
Like we shouldn't see -1,000,000,000 HP appear everytime we hit a monster anymore as a heuristic for health; we should be able to visually see what kinda cumulative trauma we're actually causing and have the computer literally computer that up and show-not-tell us that information (great for immersion in RPGs).
I'm impressed with games like Rimworld & Dwarf Fortress that have adopted this new philosophy on old mechanics.

>>3809329
and yes, there's a place for simplicity in games; but over-reduction of a game to something so basic is just good for toddlers.
I sometimes feel there is a type of cathartic joy to the artificial complexity/micro-managing found in these games. It definitely keeps the mind stimulated and engaging as a 4X game would.

>>3809286
I honestly think 4-5 stats is a lot better for spreading things around than 6. Shadow of the Demon Lord only has 4 (strength, agility, will, intellect), and it gives every class a reason to want every stat.

Tough, I think more games should take the abstraction pill. As much as I don't like Powered by the Abyss as an RPG system, I do like being able to say "My character has a +3 to 'Sneaky' which means they're good at anything that requires being sneaky" without worrying that stealth is dex, lying is cha, hitting someone from stealth is strength etc. Obviously doesn't work for every game, but I think it works for more games than what currently use it.

>>3809332
then what you want is not an rpg
because rpgs, on a very fundamental level, are not simulations and even those systems that are referred to as "simulationist" are fundamentally not simulations
naturally you don't understand that because you are dumb

>>3809341
no. I'm asking for a better RPG.
A Role Playing Game. Remember?
I want to immerse myself Playing in a Role in a Game.

>>3809116
In theory nothing fundamentally prevented older RPGs from having six billion different attributes or even diegetic damage, it's just some extra lines of code/text. They're just not good ideas if you actually think about it. There's a reason why games you named as examples of depth are sandboxes with indirect control of characters.

>>3809332
>Because reality has a certain complexity
Right, but you can't capture all of reality so game devs have to decide whether it's worth capturing all the things that go into different actions via multiple stats.
>Like we shouldn't see -1,000,000,000 HP appear everytime we hit a monster anymore as a heuristic for health; we should be able to visually see what kinda cumulative trauma we're actually causing and have the computer literally computer that up and show-not-tell us that information (great for immersion in RPGs).
A lot of RPGs let you turn off damage numbers and HUDs, but here you're just advocating for the number crunching to be moved under the hood.
>Rimworld & Dwarf Fortress that have adopted this new philosophy on old mechanics.
They're simulation games that focus on watching numerous AI characters interact, the experience is different from the majority of RPGs, though I know DF added adventurer mode at some point. Here their complexity directly contributes to the end game design goal of watching an unpredictable world whose randomness is the sum of many different systems interacting. That's not the end goal for a lot of games.

Picking a random example from a game I like: in Dragon's Dogma your stats are attack/defence/magic attack/defence. These aren't realistic simulations of real world attributes and they're not meant to be. What they are is conducive to the experience of being able to use the strengths of one class on another, while still possessing a degree of choice and optimisation. i.e. they make it so building a warrior earlier lets you translate your high attack power and defences to a ranger without having to worry about "warriors build strength, but rangers actually use dex to attack sorry!". That's an experience the game directly encourages. It wouldn't be helped if there were 6 different types of physical attack stats and 8 different types of magic defence.

>>3809424
You can "optimize" qualitatively without the quantitative data being UX of Excel.
For example, instead of Longsword +2, it's called Darung's Bane and glows more intense than +1 weapons. Instead of take 10 HP of damage, you're character animation looks slightly more sluggish and haggard (less sharp & lucky).
I like having to guess more and using my intuition now given how deep into metagaming I've (we've?) gone into RPGs (particularly cRPGs).
There's a lot of stuff that can be simplifed to let way to more interesting (and perhaps novel) complex system in games (not card draw mechanics, I hate that shit).

>>3808113 (OP)
>core:
>VIT - health, simple as
>END(urance) - defense, simple as
>SPD - general speed (not dexterity!)
>CON(stitution), how well you can take hits. reduces the impact of attacks
>class:
>STR - general strength, mostly relates to melee. can also make things that need force quicker.
>+++melee, +rogue
>DEX - general manipulation capabilities. improves the ability to handle small, delicate, and complex items
>+++ rogue, +melee
>INT - general ability of the mind. improves your ability to catch onto things, do logical tasks, and also influences your ability to perform magic
>+++ magic, +ranged
>FCS - general attentive capability. improves your aim and the ability to handle longer tasks.
>+++ranged, +magic
>misc:
>WIL - how capable you are of forcing your will over that of others.
>LCK - increases the chances of things happening, for better or worse.
>CHR - how well you come across to other people.
>AGI - your ability to dodge, evade, and generally throw your weight around on a moment's notice. also makes you stealthier.

>>3809286
>A Beauty stat was never really interesting . The separation of Charisma and Manipulation doesn't really make much sense.
It works for Vampire because it's a social game. Just having one social stat like charisma would make it too powerful.
Separating agility and dexterity might seem like a good idea as they are different things, but then you run into balancing issues like in cyberpunk 2020 where everyone max their reflexes and dump their MA (movement allowance.)

>>3809286
>GURPS only has 4 attributes where IQ & DX cost twice the amount of ST & HT. IQ does way too many things at once. Also strangely, HP is determined by ST not HT.
GURPS HP is based on body size, which scales with ST. HT is general health and stamina. Something like a rat would have good HT but almost no HP.

>>3809789
I understand that Charisma needs to be split but like >>3809325 said this makes more sense. Beauty is interesting when being butt ugly has consequences otherwise it is just slut stat. Either way it works better as a perk. Manipulation makes more sense when contrasted with Presence & Composure.

>Separating agility and dexterity might seem like a good idea as they are different things, but then you run into balancing issues
You made a good point but how is making them one stat any better?

>>3809328
>to fix the INT/WIS confusion while introducing the AGI/FIN confusion
>I swear to god Daggerheart is the second worst system I've ever read
They should have went with AGI/DEX. A lot of Daggerheart feels like it is reinventing the wheel and making it gay.

>>3809336
I think 4 stats is too small. 5-6 is the sweet spot which would be weird to say since I would be bringing up my idea of a 10-15 attribute system. The idea was to force the players to build the physical and mental traits of the character. The mind and body stats have their own pool of points with 7 points that can be allocated on either side. Basically, lowering something like STR below the default value of 5 will give 1 point that can be spent on other body stats but not mind stats like INT thus why they represent in separate stars. The 3rd star is for when the character "awakens" so it is unavailable in the start and it is the only part that I didn't make to be setting agnostic.

>>3809885
>how is making them one stat any better?
Like i said, it's balancing issue.
Imagine dnd if dex was split into dex/agi and charisma into cha/beauty. wizard could dump them all while bard would run out of points.

>>3809998
Well that is the problem with casters vs martials. This is part of the reason that I made the green star in >>3809885 That and I wanted to keep magic special. That is also the problem with having an avatar character. D&D is a party based system.

I was thinking in terms of something like Fallout. In D&D, the stats are balanced with 3 physical stats and 3 mental stats.

>>3810320
What would dex even do in fallout?

>>3810565
When I said something Fallout, I just mean Underrail. Underrail has greatly improved on the Fallout formula to the extent that I can't think of anything mechanically from Fallout that I prefer over Underrail.

>>3808113 (OP)
DEX accuracy stat
AGI dodge stat

What are some games with some interesting and or complex attribute systems? I love a good hero maker with tons of attributes to define your little heroes with. I get bored with how many just lean back on D&Ds six core attributes. I like complexity, lots of secondary derived stats from two or more attributes, novel systems and mechanics. Feels lazy when you load up a new game and its just STR DEX CON WIS INT CHR again.

>>3811338
The game's a little divisive here, but it's hard to beat Disco Elysium in terms of unique skills and skill interactions. Though, given your post I'm assuming you want something more traditional and dungeon-crawly instead of a pseudo-detective game about divorce and politics.
>Feels lazy
Lazy is a little uncharitable, most games don't have a reason to reinvent the wheel when it comes to stats. If anything the lazy part is using all 6 instead of just a few of them when they often don't actually need all 6 (like games where Charisma is useless)

>>3809998
>>3811338
D&D is based on doing a lot of rolling so it can't really afford to make the math too complicated. Tim Cain commented that had a bad habit of putting a lot of skills in the category of DEX/AGI. In FO1, Unarmed and Lockpicking used AGI; but in FO3, Unarmed used END and Lockpicking used PER.

>>3811338
FFXI is mechanically the best RPG system ever devised. Shame it was only ever used in an MMORPG. It should have been the basis for the rest of the series going forward at the very least. Its cool how the Attributes, Magic, Affinity, Skills, all tie into eachother along with stuff like day, weather, and even cardinal direction playing a role as well. And because of how gear works (you can freely swap it at any time) the amount of useful gear you can find is staggering. In another game where you pick up some boots with +5% cure potency youd never use them as anything but a dedicated healer, but in FFXI you add them to your healing magic midcast set. Also with the Job system you get to select any other job you have leveled as a support job, which is half the level as your main job. You get all its skills, abilities, and job traits at half the level of your main job. it created so many cool combos and synergistic choices.

FFXI is impossible to beat if you want a complex RPG system to play around with.

>>3811364
>most games don't have a reason to reinvent the wheel when it comes to stats
They should, thats the primary reason I play new and different RPGs, otherwise id just be playing Infinity Engine and Aurora Engine games the rest of my life. I play RPGs for the novel systems and mechanics and I want the wheel reinvented becuase the wheel still has those rough edges like CHR being useless in most games. I like exploring how games use numbers to define a characters physical and mental abilities and seeing how these systems interact.