What explains this game design discrepancy between east and west?

Do you want someone to write an essay or do a presentation or something? Divergence in game design philosophy, both inherent and gradual over the decades, cannot be explain in a post on an imageboard. It's like asking why western and eastern storytelling elements are so often different, but even dumber.

99% of JRPGs only have 1 ending. No choices.

>>3810673 (OP)
different design philosophies.
All JRPGs are based on Wizardry and don't view an RPG as anything more than turn based with stats. WRPGs focus a lot more on narrative divergence to simulate the actual "Role-Playing" aspect.

>>3810673 (OP)
Because dungeons in CRPGs are far more linear than you try and peddle them as.
No, being able to enter a side room that connects to the same large room as you were in is not some amazing branching path. Even linear shooter levels do this.

>>3810673 (OP)
I am tired of people pretending that there is a significant difference between those things in your Pic.
If you make a big deal about choices and then all you have to offer are bunch of different slides or additional dialogue options/voiceovers then all of these things are the same with the only difference that the 3 above lie to you and you fell for it.


>>3810764
>WRPGs focus a lot more on narrative divergence
Are you trolling?
"Illusion of choice" is not "narrative divergence"

>>3810673 (OP)
the top one is literally the first romancing saga thoughever

>>3810769
he's... talking about character choices and the branching paths of story, not dungeon design.
with respect to dungeon design though, it's not surprising in the slightest; look at the style of modules published by JG when the principles of Jaquaysing dungeon design was established compared to the era of AD&D 2e modules that were published when around the time of the first Baldur's Gate game. a fully Jaquaysed dungeon that embraces the non-linearity works fine for something like Wizardry but not for the majority of CRPGs (or RPGs in general)

Japanese devs played Wizardy and Ultima and decided to evolve the genre by attaching stronger linear narratives to them because they didn't know or care that these games were trying to simulate the tabletop role-playing game experience to the best they were able.

>>3810778
>"Illusion of choice" is not "narrative divergence"
Ok fag, but that's still the illusion they're going for.

>>3810795
>evolve the genre by attaching stronger linear narratives to them
Right call. All storyless autismo rpgs died out

>>3810788
Nta but I disagree.
Jaquayed Dungeons are the only correct way to design Dungeons unless you make of Dungeons simple plot devices.
That said, your example is a highly cluttered one. Id rather have smallish but jaquayed Dungeons, which for me are the best way of doing them in RPGs, mostly because you make of the the Dungeon that which It is supposed to be, that is, a dangerous labyrinth; and also you make of It not exaggerately confusing.
Ive said It a few times around here but best example of It is Ganon's Lair level 9 in Zelda 1.
Wizardry has many examples and so do Etrian Odyssey. But games like Elminage tend to go too deep into enormous and jaquayed, especially in later Dungeons, which end up making them frustrating to explore.

>>3810673 (OP)
So WRPG means action game with dialogue trees, right?

>>3810673 (OP)
CRPG and WRPG branches should reconverge after every split. Something like a mirrored zigzag. Have you played the SaGa series, Elona/Elin, Lunatic Dawn, or Triangle Strategy?

>>3810764
Is Wizardry not an RPG? Is the only definition of 'role' an 'acting role'?

Would ARPGs be a circle?

>>3810673 (OP)
I have no idea where the artist got this notion JRPGs have tangible different endings.

>>3810884
I wonder that myself...

>>3810884
Just looking at it, I can say the image is made by someone who's heard of RPGs secondhand and possibly from videos on Youtube, but never actually played them beyond maybe Skyrim and a later FF.

>>3810885
There are oddities of all stripes for every category, but as a general thing JRPGs don't do that shit.

>>3810884
Not only different endings, but entirely separate scenarios. There are actually a lot of games like that, and more the further back you go (although it's more of an adventure game thing), which is probably why he distinguished "AAA" JRPGs that technically don't exist.

>>3810889
I find it to be more common in eroge, Kamidori Alchemy Meister has three completely different routes for each heroine for example, and Daibanchou changes things up quite a bit depending on which girl you focus on.

>>3810894
Funny how they abandoned that as they went on. Though they didn't even translate the Snow Queen route at first.

>>3810880
>Is Wizardry not an RPG? Is the only definition of 'role' an 'acting role'?
No? I'm just pointing out the different viewpoints.

>>3810673 (OP)
I realize it's not feasible, but I really liked how Witcher 2 did that one chapter where you choose between Roche and Iorveth resulting in an entirely different chapter.

>>3810867
>Jaquayed Dungeons are the only correct way to design Dungeons
funny, I've noticed with warlock of firetop mountain people like the linear first part much, much more than the free roam maze part

thoughts?

>>3810769
Only autists give a fuck about dungeons.

>>3810900
I didn't like it at all. It means you miss out on half the plot.
In the third act I was literally left with no clue who Philippa Eilhart is, or what she has to do with anything.

>>3810930
Anon. You can replay games, you know.

>>3810673 (OP)
What does the CRPG jew path look like?
>Tag skills: Barter.

>>3810905
Isnt this game a sort of narrative driven?
I have never played this one, have to admit but ive read a bit about It.

>>3810769
That's literally the first dungeon of WOTR.

>>3810988
Point remains. The dungeons aren't actually complex in CRPGs. They're still very linear and focused on hallways. Sometimes they throw in some shitty gimmick like portals sending you around the dungeon, but that's it.

RPG level design in general is fucking terrible. Partially because no good level designers work on them and because RPG players are satisfied with shit.
Stuff like shooter level design has advanced by lightyears in comparison, while RPG level design stagnated and remains the same.

>>3810983
Nah its basically a point crawl that was written by two people. First part has you travelling down a corridor, and you can check out rooms on the way, and pick a direction to go (the wrong way is a dead end and you circle back to the right path). Part 2 is a true maze

>>3810769
Goblin Camp, FortJoy and Gauntlet are masterclass in level design for Crpgs, i have never played one with better level design than this.

The only ones with this quality level design are immersive-sims and Hitman games.

>>3810769
>linear shooter
Yeah but linear shooter don't give you any shit to interact with the level, so they are worse actually.
Unless you count immersive-sims like Prey then you can make a showdown, otherwise no shooters have worse level design imo.
Call of Duty, Battlefield, Doom, Half-Life, Quake, UT, Killzone, Stalker, Metro, Titanfall, Halo, Destiny, Bioshock, Overwatch and Borderlands.
Yeah they are all worse bro.

>>3810673 (OP)
huh

>>3810673 (OP)
all of those are good and viable approaches, depending on what you want.

>>3811105
You don't understand what level design is and placing several bookcases, chests, armor racks and such is not a relevant level of "interaction".

The amount shooters have evolved in terms of level design is lightyears ahead. It makes use of every trick in the book from composition, weight, funneling, perspective, flow, scanning, PPP, orientation, prospect & refuge, signposting, micro-meso-macro-area landmarking, verticality, vantage, enviromental storytelling, sightlines, combat fronts, zig zagging, destruction, multilayered encounter design, breadcrumbing, architecture, urban planning, camera direction and the list goes on.

CRPG dungeons are still just basic hallway sims and the area/world design is a joke. Ironically, player agency is also far lower in terms of LD in CRPGs.

>>3810803
>Ok fag, but that's still the illusion they're going for.
Pretending to give players a choice, and then ignoring their choice, is far more immersion breaking than not giving players a choice to begin with.

>>3811105
>Battlefield
Fight harder! We’re LOSING this battle!

>>3810673 (OP)
wizardry didn't have the technology to do anything much more than a simple dungeon crawler
japan had access to wizardry, but not d&d
the larger a game's budget, the less optional content you can justify

>>3810884
Imagine if the artist got the notion of a JRPG having two tangibly different storylines.

>>3811177
>japan had access to wizardry, but not d&d
How do you explain ff1?

>>3811191
memory constraints meant it didn't have much of a story to begin with. Even today, with the remakes and revisions, it is still incoherent.

>>3810884
You never played any jap games other JRPGs, didnt you?
Especially Eroge and Adventure games had this going for decades.

>>3811154
>CRPG dungeons are still just basic hallway sims and the area/world design is a joke. Ironically, player agency is also far lower in terms of LD in CRPGs.

Its really weird how dungeon design has been stagnating for decades when we had games that kinda sorta tried to go in the right direction.

I dont remember when I first saw traps that were designed to fuck with the players perception, if it was in one of the Wizardry games or a bit later in the Eye of the Beholder series.
But I distinctively remember my mind being blown about the use of Teleportation traps or pitfalls bringing you down to a different area or level of the dungeon without you noticing unless you paid attention.

The second time I was wow'd was when I played Morrowind and noticed the verticality in many dungeons. Places that in other games would be just backdrops were reachable and explorable with the right skills or abilities and lootplacing there showed that the devs were encouraging you to explore.

>>3811154
>The amount shooters have evolved in terms of level design is lightyears ahead. It makes use of every trick in the book from composition, weight, funneling, perspective, flow, scanning, PPP, orientation, prospect & refuge, signposting, micro-meso-macro-area landmarking, verticality, vantage, enviromental storytelling, sightlines, combat fronts, zig zagging, destruction, multilayered encounter design, breadcrumbing, architecture, urban planning, camera direction and the list goes on.
Nobody is impressed with your meaningless buzzword salad. Shooters are made for low IQ people and even a child can easily beat them.

>>3811342
and there is its, the mark of the midwit

>>3810885
>>3810894
Somewhere out there exist JRPG fans raised on SMT and SaGa games who have a very different take on the genre compared to what it actually is.

>>3810673 (OP)
The thing this image doesn't show is that each one of those models can result in a good or bad game.

>>3811352
That's a funny thing to imagine, but it's not just those two. Other anons already mentioned Front Mission and Kamidori, Radiant Historia did it, and it's a staple of Fire Emblem, Langrisser, Growlanser, and Tactics Ogre clones. Even Neptunia, Valkyrie Profile, and Phantasy Star made attempts.

>>3810673 (OP)

>>3811154
>You don't understand what level design is
Not him, but I've actually never cared about level design in any game, that's why I like RPGs. Systems and interactions are more important to me than moving through a space.

>>3810867
*Jaquaysed

>>3810884
>>3810889
No offense, but maybe you shouldn't talk about things you're broadly ignorant on.

>>3811336
>discussion about JRPGs
>What about other Jap games?
Are you stupid?

>>3811726
*trannyfied