What makes cold war and modern era grand strategy games unappealing? - /vst/ (#2053372) [Archived: 1010 hours ago]

Anonymous
5/30/2025, 4:48:02 AM No.2053372
Yuri_Gagarin_como_cadete_del_club_de_vuelo_de_Saratov
Yuri_Gagarin_como_cadete_del_club_de_vuelo_de_Saratov
md5: 075d4b9a535c93ff868d54893e98a0de🔍
I tried playing the Iron Curtain mod for HOI4 and was bored to death with it. Is the Vic 2 mod worth trying or not?

I feel like there's so much potential for a game spanning 1946-92 or 1992-2030 but for some reason nobody seems to be able to figure out a formula for it.

How would you design a Cold War game?
Replies: >>2053412 >>2053445 >>2054494 >>2054847 >>2054946 >>2055150 >>2055359 >>2055507 >>2055973 >>2056043 >>2056701 >>2057504 >>2057765 >>2061250
Anonymous
5/30/2025, 5:15:00 AM No.2053394
a cold war game has to:
-one be about espionage or global secret conflicts
-two be about economic development/competition.
Anonymous
5/30/2025, 5:52:18 AM No.2053412
>>2053372 (OP)
the cold war was about glowie shit and proxy wars
it's going to be boring as shit unless you allow unhinge shit, which most devs don't
Anonymous
5/30/2025, 6:50:04 AM No.2053445
>>2053372 (OP)
Most retards doing Cold War content make it bad on purpose.
>Noooo we can't have anything happen that'd cause WW3
There is one decent strategy game that nearly counts and could be a decent template: the CW campaign in the Rise of Nations expansion. Play as both sides, spy stuff as missions, move stuff on the map, things connected via scenario battles. It's not exactly what you're talking about but it proves that a lot of the concepts you seem to want are doable. I think some of it could translate to HOI4 as well. The problem is the devs of those mods being boring and awful people that hate fun. Like you said with CWIC or worse, nu-TNO.
Replies: >>2053701
Anonymous
5/30/2025, 11:28:05 AM No.2053619
Too cold.
Anonymous
5/30/2025, 1:28:45 PM No.2053701
>>2053445
Iron Curtain is awful, played as North Vietnam in 1946 and literally could only attack the French after completing focuses that would start border wars in select provinces. Such bullshit, it's not like me defeating France earlier and giving myself time to build up for the civil war is some crazy scenario so I don't know what the fuck the dev thought.

I'm so sick of bullshit like this I'm tempted to just try and make a game as I've always dreamed of a good Cold War gsg.

I also may check out Rise of Nations too, thank you anon.
Replies: >>2054729
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 2:23:57 AM No.2054489
IMG_1357
IMG_1357
md5: 7675d09cd53b337b5b5d2091f7b5d1a5🔍
All it would need are mechanics centered around proxy wars and asymmetrical warfare. A cold war scenario in a game without those is like watching paint dry.
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 2:33:36 AM No.2054494
>>2053372 (OP)
>What makes cold war and modern era grand strategy games unappealing?
The good guys have already lost and there's generally no way to bring them back, so you're just stuck playing as either managerial dystopia: blue or managerial dystopia: red. It's a fake and boring conflict.
Replies: >>2055144
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 9:42:05 AM No.2054729
>>2053701
>Why did they do this
Probably wanted to simulate guerrilla warfare but the engine won't allow it. A better example was shown by the 2WRW dev. Finland will have a national spirit that gives them debuffs to speed, logistics and entrenchment and costs small amounts of manpower every week. It adds up so that the more modern army can have laps run around them if invaded by a warlord (or so they claimed but it makes sense). If taken to the Indochina war scenario you could have France get debuffs which you could then exploit in a major offensive which would be an actual war.

Do try RoN though, its cold war campaign is really underappreciated.
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 12:31:11 PM No.2054847
>>2053372 (OP)
ICBM: Escalation, among others, is a thing you absolute lazy nigger
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 2:49:16 PM No.2054946
>>2053372 (OP)
Workers & Resources PVP matches with working military units.
Cold War in game format won't work unless by going to war you're risking hours, if not days, of watching paint dry.
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 8:16:26 PM No.2055144
>>2054494
Every single goverment has been a managerial dystopia since we needed someone to count the excess grain.
Replies: >>2055531
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 8:21:53 PM No.2055150
>>2053372 (OP)
It would be great if done in a way that it centered in either just the superpowers and their spheres of influence, or be more open centering not only, that but also on internal development of a nation.
A WW2 game is horrible at simulating the Cold War, as it is designed for a gigantic war not the diplomatic and tecnological conflict that the Cold War was.
I had fun with the Victoria 2 Cold War mod, and I guess you can make a fun Cold War mod for Victoria 3 if you add enough flavour to every country.
Replies: >>2055386
Anonymous
5/31/2025, 11:57:02 PM No.2055359
>>2053372 (OP)
Its all edging and skullduggery until the big war, which has a nuclear exchange and then a bunch of cripple fighting in poorly simulated radiation.
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 12:22:47 AM No.2055386
>>2055150
>A WW2 game is horrible at simulating the Cold War, as it is designed for a gigantic war not the diplomatic and tecnological conflict that the Cold War was.
What if - OK, hear me out here - you made a cold war game with a gigantic war in mind?
>NOOOOOO EVERYONE HAS TO FIRE ALL THEIR NUKES INSTANTLY AT EVERYONE YOU JUST HAVE TO IF YOU DON'T IT'S UNREALISTIC
People who say this are dumb niggers that shoot themselves in the foot btw.
Replies: >>2055986
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 1:51:25 AM No.2055490
GSG players are smarter than most gamers, but they are still mouthbreathing retards (As evidenced by the HOI4 community) so when you implement gameplay that requires more thought and planning than mashing divisions into each other, you've already alienated 90% of your potential playerbase for a project that will take much more time and effort to develop than a WW2 game
Replies: >>2055497
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 1:58:56 AM No.2055497
>>2055490
Stop huffing your own farts, nigger.
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 2:08:51 AM No.2055507
>>2053372 (OP)
Because the actual cold war was a series of morally grey and questionable proxy wars between extremely asymmetrical sides. The 'meat' of the cold war was a diplomatic and realpolitik competition for international clout and influenced paired with a technological arms race.

Strategy games are wargames at their heart, and the cold war as a whole isn't a great setting for wargames. And the few conflicts that are symmetrical enough to work as a game scenario are controversial or unpopular among the kinds of people that play wargames.

Modern games face several hurtles. For one, there's no symmetrical modern conflict to draw on. Two: the era of great power politics is over, so what would you even do? What would the strategic goal of a modern gsg even be?
Three: there are no symmetrical powers for which to present a conflict, and misrepresenting two asymmetrical powers as symmetrical is inherently political (and thus inviting controversy). Four: there are genuine licensing issues with depicting modern military hardware. These things are products with intellectual property owned by companies. You can't just take a Stryker and put it in your videogame without working out the license with General Dynamics. You've got to use a lot of clever workarounds to avoid getting sued, and at that point you're drifting further from 'modern' and more towards 'scifi'
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 2:32:44 AM No.2055531
>>2055144
In most societies the bureaucrats (barring the managerial dystopia China) were servants rather than rulers.
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 2:04:32 PM No.2055973
Twilight Struggle
Twilight Struggle
md5: c75f81ae7d014023c8a9a87986599c9c🔍
>>2053372 (OP)
Remembered another one. Play Twilight Struggle. It's an excellent cold war board game that effectively functions like a map painting game. One of the finest board games ever made. It's going to use dices and cards so it won't be like a Paradox game, but it works. The turn based formula lends itself to the slower pace of the war too and a lot of the conflicts are represented via dice combat. If you want a good cold war grand strategy game, this will at the very least scratch that itch for you since it has a good mix of politics, influence spreading, coups, special events and light alt history possibilities by historical events going the other way thanks to RNG Jesus. Not EXACTLY what you want just like that Rise of Nations expansion, but still definitely in the ballpark.

Don't get why everyone's so blackpilled about the prospect of making a good cold war /gsg/. Scenarios that involve wars and warfare can be done either in the 40s and 50s where you don't have huge arsenals or lots of ballistic missiles and the timeframe definitely allows for a round of combat like HOI might. If you want something more modern, just have SDI be a thing or have nuclear weapons be governed by treatied/cooler heads so that they don't instantly pop off, allowing for a more conventional game. If you want to focus more on politics, then making it turn based or operate on a faster time scale like EU4 would work, especially if you allowed for some abstractions the way the EU games do. Another way of doing it would be to focus on a single continent and exclude direct superpower conflict, but instead essentially have you play something akin to the US and USSR through their proxies in a region. Think HOI4, but you're commanding an entire alliance of proxies and your support for them, and the thing can either end up in a diplomatic/economic victory somehow or a gigantic war. And if nukes go off, who cares? It's only [continent I dislike]!

tl;dr think positively/outside the box!
Replies: >>2057162 >>2057553
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 2:19:40 PM No.2055986
>>2055386
Then it would be a WW3 game, not a Cold War one
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 3:12:38 PM No.2056043
>>2053372 (OP)
There aren't many characters, the characters are rarely likable, direct war has to be avoided, and the underdogs will all lose.
Replies: >>2056046
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 3:19:12 PM No.2056046
>>2056043
>There aren't many characters
Historylet detected.
>The characters are rarely likeable
In a time period with some of the most iconic political and revolutionary figures in modern history?
>Direct war has to be avoided
In a time period that saw dozens of major conventional wars that killed tens of millions?
>The underdogs will all lose
Post pics of the Sino-American joint victory parade through Hanoi after effortlessly defeating this underdog.
Replies: >>2056048
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 3:23:24 PM No.2056048
>>2056046
>Historylet detected.
I mean from different sovereign entities.
>In a time period with some of the most iconic political and revolutionary figures in modern history?
They're iconic because of recency bias, and yes.
>In a time period that saw dozens of major conventional wars that killed tens of millions?
I said "direct".
>Post pics of the Sino-American joint victory parade through Hanoi after effortlessly defeating this underdog.
The Vietnamese weren't underdogs. The war was asymmetrical, but they had a land connection to the two strongest Soviet states.

Really, we don't need to argue. The fact that no one bothers trying to make this a reality makes enough of an argument already.
Replies: >>2056112
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 5:22:44 PM No.2056112
>>2056048
>Only the USSR and USA existed
>No one will remember the likes of Che Guevara, Castro, Pinochet, Khomeini or Nixon a few years from now
>None of the wars that happened count because only a direct invasion of West Germany counts so you can never have wars
>A bunch of rice farmers with Mosins are equal if not stronger than the full might of the Americans, actually
Terrible post.
Anonymous
6/1/2025, 5:25:06 PM No.2056114
>Terrible post.
You're the one who made it.
Boring setting. Have a nice one.
Anonymous
6/2/2025, 8:52:36 AM No.2056701
20241208064012_1
20241208064012_1
md5: 7f10644fdca8b9eca37f94fb4fb8bcc5🔍
>>2053372 (OP)
>game spanning 1946-92 or 1992-203
You are basically asking for Victoria 2 with the CWE mod. It goes from 1946-2100 with optional 1946,1950 and 1992 starts. After testing many games I have come to the conclusion that this mod is the best for this setting and that there will never be a better game for this. It really only lacks characters.
Replies: >>2056745
Anonymous
6/2/2025, 10:51:12 AM No.2056745
>>2056701
You're playing them wrong if you aren't popsmaxxing with the traditionalists.
Anonymous
6/2/2025, 11:15:25 AM No.2056754
file
file
md5: 3300ff97ac63d630b6cd4e32aedc26e8🔍
A proper cold war game should have heavily competitive international market economics. It should not just be simple build build build but instead competing with other nations over global market share of goods and shit. Basically park chung hee simulator.
Replies: >>2057260 >>2057690
Anonymous
6/2/2025, 8:31:40 PM No.2057162
>>2055973
Thank you anon, I appreciate the recommendation and your mindset, God bless you.
Replies: >>2057690
Anonymous
6/2/2025, 9:57:49 PM No.2057260
>>2056754
Running guns to third world countries, funding ever-escalating proxy wars, and funding it with dirty money is key for this genre. For some reason I feel that Victoria 2’s crisis system would work well for this.
Replies: >>2057477
Anonymous
6/3/2025, 5:08:01 AM No.2057477
>>2057260
nayrt but good points.
Anonymous
6/3/2025, 6:56:07 AM No.2057504
Conflict_-_Middle_East_Political_Simulator_Coverart
Conflict_-_Middle_East_Political_Simulator_Coverart
md5: a84544341c006cb221d9daaf2bbbacb4🔍
>>2053372 (OP)
idk if cold war but conflict: middle east political simulator feels like a cold war game with all the stockpiling of weapons and funneling of funds toward nukes, destabilizing countries by backing insurgencies, toward other conflicts in the middle east, and other semitic behavior. Is there any other games like this?
Anonymous
6/3/2025, 9:56:54 AM No.2057553
>>2055973
yea but wut about my hecking ww3
Anonymous
6/3/2025, 1:44:00 PM No.2057690
shadow nixon
shadow nixon
md5: 2e08307451d724f309a809d1be141309🔍
Another suggestion: Shadow President. Early 90s political sim set at the tail end of cold war with lots of diplomatic, economic and military options under the hood. It's more of a deep state sim, but that might even make it more interesting today than it was in 1992. It's currently abandonware and it's highly recommended.

Also: I really wish this could be modded. It'd be so much fun if you could raise the aggression level of places like the USSR and other countries. Honestly wish you could play as countries besides America too, that'd be amazing. Alas, nothing is perfect.

>>2056754
At that point you might as well make a proper management/spreadsheet simulator instead of a /gsg/.

>>2057162
No other game really does with CMEPS does imo. The best part about it is that the starting situation is always fairly random so the replay value was great. Used to play it in school as a kid and it was great for squeezing in a few games here and there during breaks because it's so quick and addicting for a political sim. Good stuff.
Anonymous
6/3/2025, 3:55:02 PM No.2057765
>>2053372 (OP)
All wars have been artificial satanic theater since at least world war 1. It’s not fun to play because there is no actual military strategy.
Replies: >>2057836
Anonymous
6/3/2025, 5:45:34 PM No.2057836
Schizo meds
Schizo meds
md5: 45e69eed267a247603b8af5630ed9d67🔍
>>2057765
Anonymous
6/4/2025, 4:51:53 PM No.2058847
Paradox games, particularly hoi4 are grand strategy lite. Nothing compared to lesser known titles like Greg Grigsby games. Paradox games are mostly arcade games
Replies: >>2058962
Anonymous
6/4/2025, 6:51:29 PM No.2058962
ss_3942a08fb3de611bda5d40ff6d9f56552036892e.1920x1080
ss_3942a08fb3de611bda5d40ff6d9f56552036892e.1920x1080
md5: 9136229800a44f710c8163bf9a2b18cf🔍
>>2058847
Boggles the mind as to why you'd think that's even remotely relevant here. I mean I like the games with his name on them especially the eastern front stuff but they're hardcore, highly detailed wargames. Damn fine for their genre I'd say. But they offer the player absolutely nothing in terms of non-military options that wouldn't be better represented in hundreds of other games. Honestly wouldn't consider them grand strategy at all since they're almost entirely wargames. Again, very good ones, but they're almost entirely lacking elsewhere.
>pdx is arcade
Maybe HOI4 and later titles but HOI3 and things from that era were highly autistic especially with say Black Ice for HOI3. But also, I'm the only person that actually bought those games so I can understand why they moved over to the mass market shtick.
Anonymous
6/7/2025, 3:06:12 AM No.2060870
Thoughts cuz just found this while searching
https://cold-war2.com/en/index.php
Anonymous
6/7/2025, 7:18:13 PM No.2061250
>>2053372 (OP)
too many systems
modern era is about economy mostly and hybrid warfare, look at victoria3
but it also will be very unrealistic even if it realistic (paradoxically) since people precieve things such as usa warmongering around the world as a good thing and west having colossal economies while in reality all they do is currency manipulations without any real production.