Angel A uses his free will to not cause rebellion.
Angel B uses his free will to cause rebellion.

This means both angels are different - because how else would you explain one to reject the idea and the other angel to embrace it? Why do they have different personalities?
Who designed the angels from scratch and made them? God.
They were made in heaven, by God, in the presence of perfection. So if Satan had ambition, or pride, or a hunger for self-exaltation, that didn’t come from the environment as they all lived in the same place. It came from within.

Unless you want to argue that personalities just randomly come from a source outside of God's control (another God then or force) you have to admit that God made some beings more evil than others and thus is the source behind every insane or disgusting action in this universe.

>>40505530 (OP)
https://voca.ro/13Ifoh5SChOc

>>40505530 (OP)
christianity is a gay bdsm religion and the followers don't want to question their "daddy" and his actions

>>40505540
>Islam = for incels
>Christianity = gay bdsm
So what are hindus?

>>40505530 (OP)
You're still seething over this? I already told you, free will is non-deterministic. Satan did not have to choose what he chose. There are plenty of humans who have those characteristics who suppress them to achieve a greater good. Satan wanted to be evil. God didn't make him to want to be evil, he made him with the capacity to choose either way. I don't see why you have so much pity for him, it would have been exponentially easier for Satan to have not chosen evil than it is for any human. Satan did something awful that he knew he shouldn't have done. What he did was the equivalent of first degree murder. When you sin against God, you do so as an ignorant and inferior being, so are less culpable. Like a child stealing cookies from a jar. Children have far less impulse control, but still can be taught right and wrong. Satan had total impulse control, and chose wrong intentionally because he wanted to. He preferred his own negative qualities to God.

>>40505735
>You're still seething over this?

Having a discussion over something with people doesn't equal seething. The fact that it makes you so emotional however (for no reason) means that it triggers you for some mysterious reason. Hope you can calm down soon.

>I already told you, free will is non-deterministic. Satan did not have to choose what he chose.

You never answered the core issue.
If all choices come from within, why did Satan make that decision and another angel didn't?
If both angels are identical in their personality/desires/morals they would always pick the identical choices.

If you want to argue that God added a "nondeterministic algorithm" to personalities than he still programmed Satan to react different than the other angel because the nondeterministic algorithm can't come from nothing, God put it into place. In non-deterministic systems, randomness can introduce variability, but randomness itself isn't a choice or personality.

If God created the angels as identical beings with randomness, God still engineered the randomness behind it, giving Satan the randomness that leans towards evil. Everything comes from God. You can't explain a non-deterministic system where randomness comes from nothing especially because God already knows the future so it's not even random, it's determined.

Story of Job.
Satan is still tighter with God than Job will ever be.

The. End.

>>40505675
>Hindus = CEO of Orgies

>>40505769
You are obviously genuinely upset by this topic otherwise you wouldn't still be thinking about it a week later and you wouldn't try to get under my skin with passive aggressive twitter zoomer-isms. I'm not emotional at all. I'm annoyed that you are refusing to understand what I've said because you've already decided within yourself what's true. Satan made that choice because he wanted to. If you're asking what was the thought process, he didn't like that he would have to serve humans, he hated that God wanted to incarnate as a human, he hated the idea of God being born of a human mother, and he hated that he was created inferior to God. He had a big ego problem. Doubtless that he wasn't the only angel that felt this way considering how many fell with him, but there were also angels who God created with the tendency to feel this depth of pride who didn't rebel because it was obviously irrational and self destructive. Satan chose this. He knew better. He knew the consequences from the very beginning, he is entirely responsible for his own decision and made it himself because he wanted to.

According to Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, all angels have free will in regard to the sins of Pride (thinking they are better than God and not following His will) and Envy (wanting to be like God). These are also the only sins possible for angels to commit. All angels were given a choice of following God's will or not, they are not forced to follow His will.

Read up on Aquinas and Angelology some more OP.

>>40505530 (OP)
Satan was disobedient to God because he loves God so much he couldn't bow down to Adam.

>>40505910
The thread was deleted and it's an interesting topic. The fact that you project "seething" into a harmless discussion means that you're still triggered and I don't even know why. Do you get emotional when people challenge your opinion? You could have simply joined the thread and discuss it with arguments but YOU made the decision to start shit and now it's passive-aggressive if I push back? Oh please.

>I'm annoyed that you are refusing to understand what I've said because you've already decided within yourself what's true. Satan made that choice because he wanted to.

Satan's choice and desire came from within.
God made everything that is within Satan, so he made him with the intentions and personality to make evil choices.
If God created the angels as identical beings with randomness, God still engineered the randomness behind it, giving Satan the randomness that leans towards evil.
You still haven't debunked this. In the bible God also states that he is both good and evil, that he is the source of EVERYTHING. He doesn't even deny it.

>>40505912
>>40505919
You didn't read OP or answer it.
Why do some angels make other choices than other angels? Where does "that" come from? Within. Who made what is within the angel? God. So the true source of their decisions and evil is God.

>>40505943
>Blablablah no u
Shut up faggot
>Everything else
I already explained this. You are choosing not to understand. God gave the angels different characteristics. He made Satan with a tendency towards self aggrandizement. Satan knew better to indulge in this weakness, and chose to anyway. If you reply again with the same question, I'm going to ignore you.

>>40505998
>Shut up faggot
Don't dish out if you can't take the heat and get this asshurt.

>I already explained this.
You never addressed this:

If you want to argue that God added a "nondeterministic algorithm" to personalities than he still programmed Satan to react different than the other angel because the nondeterministic algorithm can't come from nothing, God put it into place. In non-deterministic systems, randomness can introduce variability, but randomness itself isn't a choice or personality.

If God created the angels as identical beings with randomness, God still engineered the randomness behind it, giving Satan the randomness that leans towards evil. Everything comes from God. You can't explain a non-deterministic system where randomness comes from nothing especially because God already knows the future so it's not even random, it's determined.

>He made Satan with a tendency towards self aggrandizement.
God designed and birthed Satan with a personality (unlike most other angels) that will chose evil. God knew the future and what is going to happen before Satan was even born, so it was all by God's design.
God is the source of Satan's evil and he wasn't fair, because he didn't give the same wickedness to others.

>>40506036
Look man I don't know what to say to you besides that you aren't making as good of a point as you think you are. You have even less free will than Satan did. Satan was completely free to choose and knew better. He was not weighted towards evil by some algorithm. This doesn't work the way you want it to, the point you're trying to make does not line up with the reality of the situation. If I recall correctly, you're an atheist anyway. So from your perspective, you're just arguing about the psychology of a fictional character in a book you've never read against someone who's entire life is guided by the content of said books and the biblical scholars who've studied it. You just don't know what you're talking about. God didn't force Satan to do evil. Satan was created with the ability to choose either way.
>Everything comes from God
Means that everything begins with God, it doesn't mean God is rooting around in our minds forcing us to choose things. Satan knew better. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. There is no way for your argument to work. Satan was a genius, infinitesimally more intelligent than the most intelligent humans, with a perfect understanding of most anything you could possibly imagine. He chose wrong anyway, because he preferred his own pride to God. He wanted it. God didn't force him to want it. He knew not to stick a fork in the outlet. He did it anyway. There is no argument left to be had. You have lost. If you ask again, I'll give the same response.

>>40506082
> He was not weighted towards evil by some algorithm.
Has to be the case though if angels were identical living in the same circumstances. Something had to be different inside of them to lead them to different decisions even if you want to claim it's non-deterministic.

> If I recall correctly, you're an atheist anyway.
I'm not. And I'm not a fan of Satan either, but I recognize that God is the ultimate puppet master and source of all evil, from my point of view.

>Means that everything begins with God, it doesn't mean God is rooting around in our minds forcing us to choose things.
God already made that choice at our creation.
If God could have made the universe differently than he did (and given his perfect power and omnipotence he could) and he knew all of our actions/choices before he created us and the universe, then he is also aware of all the other potential universes and our actions in them.

So he chose to make this specific universe in which he knew everything which would ever happen, setting all our actions in stone. He could have created a universe in which Satan doesn't exist or you don't exist or I don't exist, but instead he instead he created this universe. In choosing this specific universe, he chose everyone's actions. Because there are a billion other universes where you, me or Satan would have chosen differently. But he picked THIS specific one.

>>40506082
>an architect designs a building that he knows will fall over eventually and then it falls over and he says that he didn't force it to it was the free will of the building
lmao

>>40506109
Angels are not identical you fucking idiot. I've said this, literally, like twenty times to you. They aren't identical. They're given different characteristics. The environment is irrelevant, there were no negative environmental factors in heaven. Satan was literally just an ass and chose what he chose out of stubbornness.
>The other stuff
Reality does not exist until it does, there is no future until it arrives. God knows everything you could feasibly choose, and what you're most likely to choose based on prior decisions, but you make your choices yourself. God is the process of creation, every atom in the universe moves at his will or with his permission. Prior to something taking it's form, it has not taken it's form. Time has not progressed to such a point where reality comes into being. God made plenty of decisions for us prior to our existence, but he didn't make every decision. We still have plenty of our own, and since they come from us, they matter substantially more. Whether or not you view some condition of your own existence as fair, that may or may not be the case, you should take it up with Him. Other than that, the choices you make are yours.

>>40506128
Again, I have already explained this multiple times. You are choosing not to understand. Satan was free to choose. That was his decision. God did not design him to choose evil, he designed him with the capacity to. If he hadn't, Satan would just be his slave. God doesn't want slaves.

>>40506309
If God gave different angels different personalities then it's even worse.
He gave Satan the personality that would lead to him being an asshole
>That was Satan's free choice!
It wasn't because Satan's choice came from within and all that is within was created by God.
The default programming that Satan had would lead ONLY to him making that choice and God knew the future.
Other angels didn't make that choice because God programmed them differently at creation.

Why be mad if Satan just does what God programmed him to do?
You can't prove he had anything resembling free will at any point when God set all the pieces in stone from the start.

>>40506309
>Reality does not exist until it does, there is no future until it arrives. God knows everything you could feasibly choose, and what you're most likely to choose based on prior decisions, but you make your choices yourself.
God chose this universe in which I was born into specific circumstances that God decided on, in a body and a soul that God decided on. When he created the universe he already made every decision.

>>40506360
Dude I have already fucking covered all of this shit, you are genuinely making me angry at this point. I don't care how you think that sounds. You're a genuine moron. This is like talking to a mental patient, I ALREADY COVERED THAT. SCROLL UP. YOU HAVE LOST THE DEBATE.

>>40506388
You didn't.

You can't explain how Satan "decided to be an asshole" without adding randomness to it. And even randomness is controlled by God.

What leads one angel to commit evil and the other angel doesn't? Something is FUNDAMENTALLY different in the two. Where does that "something" come from? God. So the ultimate factor that drove Satan to make that decision came from God. It can't come from nowhere.

Sorry that you can't comprehend that.

>>40506387
Yeah he made a lot of decisions, some of them negatively effected you. Talk to him about it, I can't help you there. You also get to make decisions, and these decisions are entirely your own. Since you are an imperfect being with an inherent lack of understanding of the repercussions of your decisions, you are eligible for forgiveness from God in a way Satan wasn't. Now stop fucking complaining to me, because I've already answered all of your questions, and go talk to God. The complaints desk is open.

>>40506403
> and these decisions are entirely your own.
They're not because God picked this specific universe where we would experience these specific circumstances that would lead to determined outcomes that God already foresaw. The moment he decided on this reality everything was already not free anymore.

>>40506400
No, he decided it because he WANTED to. He, individually, WANTED to. He wanted to because he didn't like the rules of his existence, and couldn't get over it. Other angels could. You are setting arbitrary standards for why this response, which is entirely comprehensive and answers your question perfectly, doesn't work. Because you've already come to your own conclusion, and don't actually want any of this explained to you. You want to be angry and complain to Christians about how angry God makes you. I can't fucking do anything for you.

>>40506411
You are a total moron

>>40506418
Yeah and where did that want come from?
Why did Satan want to do this and Michael didn't?

The want for evil came from within. Anything that is within was given by God, God put that there.
And God designed Satan to be an asshole, but he designed Michael not be an asshole.
So how is it Satan's fault if God made him that way?

>NOOO IT WAS HIS FREE WILL!
It can't be his free will because something needs to be fundamentally different about Satan for him to end up at that choice.
Whatever that "different" factor is, God put it into him, because it can't come from nothing.

>>40506421
Not an argument. Just admission of defeat.

God could have made the universe differently than he did (and given his perfect power and omnipotence he could) and he knew all of our actions/choices before he created us and the universe, then he is also aware of all the other potential universes and our actions in them. In choosing this specific universe, he chose everyone's actions

>>40506426
It came from Satan. It didn't come from God. I already told you this. Satan made a decision he shouldn't have, the choice was always his and he was never predestined to make either option.

>>40506426
God knows all of our POTENTIAL choices. We are the one who actually CHOOSES them. YOU HAVE FREE WILL ASSHOLE. IT CAME FREE WITH YOUR SAPIENCE.

>>40506847
Meant for
>>40506432
I have answered all of your questions. We're just going in circles, where you repeat a misunderstanding you have that I've dispelled and I dispell it all over again

You people dont even know who "God", "Satan", "Jesus", or "Lucifer", etc are even supposed to be. Stop speaking with confidence thinking you are going to make it a reality 'just because'.

>>40506838
>It came from Satan.
God put every cell, fiber, piece of nature into Satan.
The only source in heaven was God. If Satan was a well all the water inside was placed there by God. So you want to tell me his water came from God?

Because nothing comes from nothing, all there is came from God. So Satan's nature came from God, he designed him this way.
No way around it.

>>40506847
>God knows all of our POTENTIAL choices. We are the one who actually CHOOSES them.
No, God knows exactly what choice we will make. And there are billion of other universes where we would have made other choices (based on other circumstances: like in that universe gravity is different or it didn't rain that night) and he put us into THIS universe, so he made that choice for us knowing what will happen.

>god designed satan to be evil

Okay? and retard? god gave MAN the freedom of choice. satan is obviously one of his many tools. not his fault you fall for it

>The want for evil came from within. Anything that is within was given by God

This is poor logic, and suggests that your want to type this was not your own but God's - which obviously isn't true, because our freewill capability (indeed God-given) is what we use to make our decisions (which are then our own).

It seems angels have the same God-given freewill capability, but also then have to accept greater responsbility, being already in the presence of the Lord. The bible explains that satan was a high-ranking angel, but believed his own lie; that he could be like God. God didn't put that lie there, the lie is the rejection - and therefore absence - of truth.

Just like the darkness is the absence of light. God doesn't create evil, evil is the absence of God.

Psalm 92:13-15
>Those that be planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish in the courts of our God.

>They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing;

>To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

>>40506899
Well see the flaw is simple

I dont know what choices ima make next week

God can know everything but im.still here living it

And today i decided to shit post ya know
So yeah if by your logic
Im here cuz god picked this for me and not me for myself then
Me shit posting here is more you and gods problem than mine


I was gonna say something like i realize now how not knowing next week something about faith and goodness but nvm

>>40506964
How do you have freedom of choice if your future was already determined before you were created and God gave you a specific personality that would lead to you deciding on certain things the way you do? You're just a puppet.

>>40506974
>This is poor logic
Please explain how saying that everything from within (or outside) comes from God is poor logic.
>God doesn't create evil
"I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7
"All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being."
Why do you niggas not even read your own book?

>>40506981
You don't know, but the future is already set in stone. So the rest is just a play-pretend illusion.
Does a video game character have free will? They were designed, made, put into a world by their Creator and act out exactly what the Creator has foreseen.

>>40507049
>Please explain how saying that everything from within (or outside) comes from God is poor logic.

Are your thoughts your own, or not?

Isaiah 45:7
>I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Can you not see the difference between form/make vs create - there is a subtle difference here that may be revealed in the actual translation. But darkness and evil are created in opposition to what God makes.

>>40507336
>Are your thoughts your own, or not?
Nothing is our own in this world. Everything is owned and governed by God in some way, if he exists.

>But darkness and evil are created in opposition to what God makes.
Yeah but he decided that. God decided how darkness/evil works, so he is the designer of darkness itself. Nothing exists that wasn't dreamt into existence by God. Even the concept of "absence" wouldn't exist if God didn't come up with it first.

Can you see 50 different colors? You can't even imagine a new color.
God could create a billion new colors and make you see them all if he wants to.

>>40505675
jenkem psychonauts, clearly

>>40507384
>Everything is owned and governed by God in some way, if he exists.

You seem very confused on what you actually believe, anon - you make a proposition that God creates darkness/evil, and then throw doubt on your own statement by suggesting he doesn't even exist to create it! Only one or the other can be true, not both - can you pick?

>>40505530 (OP)
What did God design the end of berserk to look like?

>>40507685
Probably unfinished at this rate.

Fun fact: Red, a color often considered evil, is a fundamental part of White (which embody every color)
Take this as a metaphor

>>40505530 (OP)
Nice thread, OP. I read you going back and forth with this christian dude who is trying to defend God's character, and the christian dogma or jewish dogma, and I have to tell you that everything that he said doesn't make any sense. He is using arguments which don't even exist in the bible lol He is ass pulling arguments while you are being perfect rational.

God is very clear i nthe bible that He is the Source of everything that exists, even good and evil. God makes it absolute clear that He is 100% the responsable for the existence of good and evil because He was the one who created such concepts. He was the one who "defined" things and he defined what is good and what is evil.

Also the bible makes it perfectly clear that God has the power to make us to X or Y. For instance in the bible God makes the heart of the phraoh become hard in order for the pharaoh not allow "God's people" to be free then God instructions Moses to to this signs in the form of plagues, how nice of God.

My point is that the bible makes it ery clear that God is the one directing the events. God is the one who is leading teh story of the human kind. It's called "History" for a reason, because it's His story.

Another thing that the bible makes i perfectly clear is that God mus tbe seen as Holy and Just and Fair. God can't be seem as a lier. The bible is very clear so this is why Satan exists. The bible makes it very clear that Satan is God's "scapegoat". God uses Satan to do His dirty work. If God did not use Satan then we would say bad things about God. But now that Satan as understood his role he embraces it, but in the process he was vilified by us. God uses Satan for his dirty work, that's the best way I can put it and the bible confirms it because Satan is teh scapegoat. All of our sins fall upon him and we blame him for our sins. Of course now Jesus came and bla bla bla. But Satan still has his bad reputation.

Satan is God's tool for evil.

>>40507467
I'm not confused. I don't know if God exists and I can't prove it. He might, he might not. I am just discussing the idea that religions have that their God is real and he's omnipotent but totally not evil.

>>40508003
Thank you. I agree with what you said.

>Satan is God's tool for evil.
It definitely seems this way!

>>40505530 (OP)

>He has created mankind to rule the world, and has appointed for him two spirits in which to walk until the season of his visitation. They are the spirits of truth and falsehood. Those born of truth come from a spring of light, but those born of falsehood come from a source of darkness. In the hand of the Prince of Light is the rule of all the sons of righteousness, and they walk in the ways of light, but in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the whole rule of the sons of falsehood, and they walk in the ways of darkness (1QS 3:17-21)

-Dead Sea Scrolls

>There are two Ways, one of Life, and one of Death, and there is a great difference between the two Ways

-The Didache

>There are two Ways of teaching and power, one of Light and one of Darkness. And there is a great difference between the two Ways. For over the one are set light-bringing angels of God, but over the other angels of Satan. And the one is Lord from eternity and to eternity, and the other is the ruler of the present time of iniquity.

-Epistle of Barnabas

I will raise a question to the people who have read the Bible and study well. With the concept of God and his power. Is he suppose to know the past present and future? Or is he just all powerful and knows what's going on at all times? If he knows the future, does that mean he knows that some people will never willingly accept Jesus or God in their heart? To know that and allow damnation despite seeing their birth and knowing 50 years down the line they never willingly accept them into their hearts... would someone not be able to see how scary of a thought that is? What type of power does God possess here? I understand the concept that God gave freewill to all his children, I just find that thought scary when I think about it.

Pic only semi-related

>>40505530 (OP)
Do you think God designed Satan to know what the end of berserk will be? What do you think happens?

>>40505530 (OP)
Satan is God’s controlled opposition.

>>40505530 (OP)
Satan in islam is considered a djinn, like an evil elf like sauron.

>>40506309
This dude ^ goes around saying shit like he knows it for a fact, like he can know the motivation of another, as if he's God.

>>40505530 (OP)
Evil is subjective. There is no "Satan"

>>40505540
its actually a death cult for jewish slaves but close enough ig

>>40509938
Ayyyyyy someone else got it

>>40505832
Wrong.

Having to ask permission to do evil to a chosen man of God =\= best friends forever.

Try again.

>>40510300
Evil is not subjective. If I see you and then I go have with you and then out of nowhere I kick you in the fucking nuts for no reason whatsoever, I did because I wanted to hurt you. Then that is evil. Let's say you are in your home after a hard day of work and you are tired and wants to rest. Then out of nowhere I burst into your house and I take hold of you and then I rape you for no reason. I rape you because I want to hurt you and I know that raping you will hurt. Rape hurts. Who the fuck likes to be raped? lol And not only I rape you, but then I start torturing you, like, cutting your fingers maybe? That shit is evil. WHy would I do that for no reason? Just for the lols? You are going to be under excruciating pain. Evil is not subjective. There are moments when we can 100% accurate say that something is evil or good.

>>40505530 (OP)
Angel B?