I saw a podcast recently and I usually like his stuff though he’s pretty schizo, but on this one, he was arguing that Catholics are better than protestants because Catholics believe in earning your spot in heaven or buying if you’re rich enough and protestants believe you only need to believe in Jesus to get into heaven. His argument was the Catholics are better off because they believe good deeds get you in, but they both require you to believe in Jesus. So I don’t really get his point of view.
That’s the type of thinking that allowed Catholics to sell spots in heaven. It’s also the Catholic type of thinking that you just need your last rights before you die and you get into heaven. They’ve often used that line of thought to justify raping children.
So who’s correct Catholics or protestants?

>Catholics or Protestants?
Mormons.

>>40544369 (OP)
The Bible is right:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

We the saved labor because we love/fear God, and desire to please Him, and for "heavenly brownie points" that are going matter in terms of the recompense we'll get for having served Christ here on earth, but none of this has anything to do with "earning" salvation or the preservation thereof; that was settled at the cross, and if the cross alone isn't good enough for salvation, then Christ died in vain, which if course He did not.

>>40544443

>>40544443
This.
>>40544498
See pic rel

>>40544369 (OP)
Everyone gets into heaven
There’s no excluding people
I swear some humans are so stupid. They think God is all powerful and all knowing but somehow petty enough to keep people out of heaven.

>>40544446
What does faith actually mean though if it isn't a type of work? And if it isn't at all a type of work but really is entirely the gift of God, then how is that not predestination?

>>40544446
The Bible is just a Jewish holy book
And they’re just pagans
There is no pearly gates, keeping ghost out of the afterlife
There is no hell
There are places in the afterlife that are like hell, but you wouldn’t stay there for eternity
You can leave them anytime you like

>>40544573
“There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.” (Luke 13:28)

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41)

“¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

>>40544644
None of that is clear and the word of God
You’re quoting pedophiles from the desert
Let’s just be real

>>40544578
In a practical sense, believing would be akin to ceasing from the mental gymnastics that lost people fool themselves with to avoid dealing with the reality of the God of the bible, which's telling us who Jesus is and how to get ahold of salvation through him.

You're not "earning" God's favor with a dead work like a ritual, tithes, self-improvement or a sacrifice; you're just losing the attitude and acknowledging the truth.

As for predestination, we are predestinated to salvation if we believe, but we are not predestinated to believing.

>>40544369 (OP)
Evola said the same thing. Pretty much Action > Non-action, so trying to save yourself via works is more efficient than your belief alone.

>>40544724
>we are predestinated to salvation if we believe, but we are not predestinated to believing
Then it sounds like believing is a work you have to do to be saved, a choice, except that it's a weird silly one instead of something sensible like being a good person.
>believing would be akin to ceasing from the mental gymnastics that lost people fool themselves with to avoid dealing with the reality of the God of the bible
From the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in the reality of God or the Bible, it feels like it requires beginning to engage in mental gymnastics to acknowledge their "truth," not ceasing to engage in mental gymnastics. In fact I'm not sure it's something I could do even if I wanted to, so if the belief-based salvation model is correct, then I think I'm simply doomed by nature.

>>40544725
Better to pay your way into heaven, I guess

>>40544446
Yet Paul also supposedly says God "will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life, while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but injustice, there will be wrath and fury."

>>40544498
>>40544369 (OP)


I Yeshua:
"Look at what you'd done to me you sweet sweet RELIGIOUS BITCH!!!"

>>40544787
>Then it sounds like believing is a work you have to do to be saved, a choice, except that it's a weird silly one instead of something sensible like being a good person.

Believing is what I already told you. Faith is trusting God on the things we don't have evidence for, based on the reality of the things he proves to us.

The difference is subtle, and it's probably just semantics getting in the way.

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17)

>From the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in the reality of God or the Bible, it feels like it requires beginning to engage in mental gymnastics to acknowledge their "truth," not ceasing to engage in mental gymnastics. In fact I'm not sure it's something I could do even if I wanted to, so if the belief-based salvation model is correct, then I think I'm simply doomed by nature.

You doom yourself by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ. Nature has nothing to do with your bad choices in this respect.

Try it, pray to Him. Ask Him to make Himself real to you and see what happens. Do it with honesty and He will answer.

Calls to heaven are on Jesus' dime ;)

>>40544881

And beyond HEARING...LISTEN, that the FAITH does not remain BLIND.

>>40544849
These are christians looking to perform their duties for the glory of God. It's a reference to our mindset, not a path to salvation, which Paul states everywhere else in the book to be a gift.

>>40544913
My faith is not blind. If God had not proved what he proved to me both as a saved man (and more importantly, while lost) I would have no reason to believe Him on anything else, but he delivered and earned my trust.

>>40544849
And the claim that God "will repay according to each one's deeds," if true, seems to strongly contradict the idea that Jesus' death is an effective atonement for sins and that the proper punishment for any level of sin is eternal torment. Instead, it seems to be aligned with a doctrine of purgatory.

>>40544925
It's from Romans 2, and it seems to be talking about everyone, not just Christians... Whenever I read about Christian salvation, I feel it absolutely must be the case that what the new testament says on the topic is either genuinely incoherent, absurd, or else there's a serious translation issue that took hold over a thousand years ago and still hasn't been quite corrected.

>>40544997
You can and will pay a price both on this earth (spiritual destruction, sickness and all sorts of evil) and also in eternity (as the loss of recompense; the works that won't abide the fire) if you rebel too much, yet neither is related to salvation, it's just both cause and effect and God correcting us in due measure for our own edification, much like good dads do to their children.

As for Romans 2, read carefully. Verse 7 says "to them" (christians), and verse 8 says "But unto them". 2 different groups. He even mentions jew and gentile as 2 distinct sub-groups, which actually cease to be distinct if they are saved, but in context they are not.

>>40545076
In verses 9 and 10, it emphasizes that both statements apply to everyone. "Every human being" or "every soul of man," depending on your translation, will get trouble and distress if they do evil, but glory, honor, and peace if they do good. At no point do I see where you are pulling out that one of these groups is limited to Christians here.

>>40545116
Again, it mentions jews and gentiles specifically, which constitute the rest of the world. Christians are neither:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)

Also, nothing you do, irrespective of how commendable it would seem, is accounted to you as a good work if you do it with disdain of God in your heart:

“THE fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.” (Psalms 14:1)

>>40545168
Galatians 3:28 feels out of context here. For one thing, it's a totally different letter which the original recipient of Romans couldn't be expected to have read, and, for another thing, even if some sense Christians are not Jews or Christians. surely they do fall under the heading of "every soul of man/every human being."

>nothing you do, irrespective of how commendable it would seem, is accounted to you as a good work if you do it with disdain of God.
See now that's just insane.

>>40545191
*even if some sense Christians are not Jews or Gentiles

>>40544369 (OP)
Confession is probably the worst social institution ever conceived. It really drives the protestant point about faith v works home because Confession makes you work HARD for your OWN salvation

>>40544369 (OP)
He's applying Pascal's Wager to Works.

Gnostics and Rosicrucians are the only Christians who understand and teach openly the mystery school secrets

>>40545279
Confession is the smartest intelligence gathering operation of all time
That’s why Jesuits trained lawyers came up with the OSS and CIA

>>40545361
In my history of things Confession is really instituted so Caesar can keep tabs on the plebs, it has nothing to do with God. So yeah

>>40544787
You exist anon, that should be proof enough for his existance if youre honest. But that didnt get me to believe either. What got me was, having 2 psychological problems (fapping/porn, and another thing you can prolly guess), i prayed to him to take them away, and i prayed earnestly, and away they were. Have not fapped / comsumed porn since that prayer. Of course i still battle with lust, but the moment you let the holy spirit into your body, a spiritual battle happens withing you, between the holy spirit and sin/your ego. You need to understand that your ego is not you, you are awareness USING ego. But most people these days are being used by the ego to fulfill their addictions (drugs, porn etc.), they are spiritual slaves to their ego.

>>40545191
>Galatians 3:28 feels out of context here. For one thing, it's a totally different letter which the original recipient of Romans couldn't be expected to have read.

I cannot find a single source, reputable or not, that dates the writting of Romans to a time earlier than that of Galatians, besides, we don't even know how much else he actually wrote (even plenty of Jesus' words are not recorded, as the apostle John tells us), not to mention the fact that he could have spoken directly to the churches before in person, as he often did.

Yet I find it interesting that you mention "context" when deliberately ignoring everything else delivered in Romans (and the rest of the epistles for that matter) that says the exact opposite of what you suggest.

>and, for another thing, even if some sense Christians are not Jews or Christians. surely they do fall under the heading of "every soul of man/every human being".

You are draging this out aren't you? Use common sense.

I was once told by a demon, or an angel, that I have to suffer to get into heaven. The word "suffer" was emphasized.
That same presence told me that human suffering was their milk, that I was their "greatest cow", "golden calf".
Some others said neither heaven nor hell are real, and earth is just one cosmic experiment in a grand lab; and that whoever runs this place lost sight of their mission here.
None of these are very good possibilities.
You must ask at some point if capable hands are always benevolent, and the answer is all around you. Non-stop suffering that could easily be fixed, were those in charge to be fucked to fix it. The "best" of humanity subsists on its slow weakening and death, and are rewarded every day for it.
They have shit up there that would melt your mind if you saw it, but they don't use it to fix things quickly. They're agonizingly slow about it. I believe they would rather we trial and error things here, lose countless billions for one useful tool. They might not even see a problem with this.

>>40544369 (OP)
>>40544369 (OP)
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

The idea of several billion weak slaves and a few lording over them sounds cool.. until you really think about it. What would happen if those lords disappeared?
There would be nothing left but slaves who run things. Humanity would be reduced to wandering husks waiting to be commanded again, maybe by lords worse than the last.
That's why the "flock and shepherd" dynamic seems so sinister to me. Humans don't HAVE to be born flawed and evil lambs. Just one "miracle" and everyone is good, free to not HAVE to learn that touching fire burns. It really is that simple; but they frame it to be so complicated.

>>40545486
>You are draging this out aren't you?
No, not just for the sake of it. I genuinely have yet to hear a satisfactory coherent way of making sense of the combination of salvation doctrines laid out in the new testament or even just in the letters of Paul. I haven't found a way to make sense it, and I strongly suspect that it could be because it doesn't make sense, though I remain on the look out for suggestions. Unfortunately from my perspective most Christians don't seem to be open to the possibility that their understanding could be imperfect, so they just force the text to fit their views, no matter how awkward the interpretation required, and call it obvious. But that's not what I'm interested in.

>>40545592
God is not interested in robots. We have free will, and that comes with the ability to mess it all up.

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.” (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

>>40544369 (OP)
The podcast was correct. Faith and Works are required for salvation.

>>40545645
>We have free will
TMS technology has been out for a long time.
They've used this shit to change not a persons body, but the way they think; their actions, their beliefs. This technology hasn't been wiped from the earth by God's wrath.
>Not yet
There's still hope though. Why it didn't happen sooner, idk; but when it happens that'll be cool at least.

>>40545630
No one has a perfect understanding of the scriptures, but this one thing you're confused by, a christian who studies the bible can get right away.

Ultimately, anything beyond the simple message of the gospel will become a matter of contention if the person isn't being guided by God:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

>>40544369 (OP)
We're already in the afterlife and you phase shift between heaven and hell depending on your soul.

>>40545696
furthermore
I guess I should say, if simple magnets can fuck with a persons head like that, who's to say it ends at that?
What about geomagnetism? What if someone out there who isn't human had access to this technology, and would use it to fuck with us? What if it's already happened?

>>40545698
>1 Corinthians 2:14
The way I understand that quote in context is that Paul is referring to something he hasn't said in that latter, and perhaps something that isn't recorded in any of his letters. Something esoteric, reserved for private communication. Not something to be used as a convenient excuse for dismissing people who question any particular interpretation of what writings we have.

"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified... We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature... What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived... This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit... Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly."

>>40545710
Sounds legit

>>40545744
>>40545744
It is indeed esoteric in the literal sense of the word, that is, knowledge intended for the "initiated" (saved) only, but it was not hidden, like some of Jesus' words were in parables.

>>40545818
Okay, feel free to remain certain that you already have the one true correct understanding, and I will continue to suspect that there are either much better ways to make sense of it or no way to make sense of it as it has been handed down to us.

>>40545853
Deal.

Bible drinking game: Read the bible and take a shot every time something it says contradicts something else it says. Lethal in the majority of situations.

This should confirm Christian Universalism. “Oh deary me, sorry you didn’t interpret the highly contradictory bronze age desert tribe instruction manual properly, therefore you are condemned to Hell for all of eternity.”

>>40545872
If you have been preached the real Jesus of the bible, there is no sin or misunderstanding that will send you to hell besides dying in rejection of Him, the only one that can save.

Everything else can and will be forgiven if you receive Him.

>>40544369 (OP)
I would confess to her

>>40544369 (OP)
Follow the teachings of Christ and Buddha

>>40546195
“¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” (Matthew 6:24)

>>40546327
Please don’t post your satanic literature in here

>>40546327
This is an allegory for the ego and the higher self btw.

>>40544369 (OP)
Pascals wager logic used by Christians against Christians, lol. It's real simple if the formula for the good afterlife is unknown and one sect says it is X, but another says X AND Y, the second sect is a better bet because if it is just X they practice that just like the first sect but if it's X and Y only the second sect practices it and the first sect goes to hell.

>>40546327
Jesus, Buddha and the other holy men aren't masters, but guides and friends.

>>40546705
“Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.” (John 13:13)