Jesus was supposed to show us how a man could achieve salvation, by coming into our world to live as a man, to feel the pain and doubt man is plagued with and conquer it.
But this goal is invalidated even before he was born.
His coming was foretold, and so true believers knew he was going to be born from Mary and was even visited by three wise men who confirmed his divinity, and so he was raised up knowing he was the son of god and his mission in the world.
Then there's this whole chapter about Jesus faith being put to the test by the devil himself, but how could he ever fail if he knows god is real?
The mofo even has the power to stop this ridiculous experiment at any moment, invalidating any pain he went through because it was all on his terms anyway, and in the end he knew his fate was to rise to heaven.

How can the trials that jesus went through even compare to those of a true believer, who never actually gets true confirmation god is even real.

Jesus never lived as a man, he cannot save anyone.

We are born with the confirmation that God is real. It is our worldly influences and sin that severs that connection.

You’re very wrong about all of that.

>>40556730
>We are born with the confirmation that God is real.
Do we though? What god? Does he reward th cruel and psychotic or the meek and humble?

Besides all that, Jesus had divine powers to perform miracles and to even end his suffering at any time, no man has that.

>>40556733
Thanks for elaborating.

Kek, good point. Haven't even realized he literally has the classic anime chosen one attributes. Carried by destiny.

Dont you have a war with Iran you should be focused on?

>>40556884
Not dying for Pissrael buddy

you got a good point, but believers think that Jesus took on all the suffering of all people who will ever live. he even faced the despair on the cross as he called out and asked why god had forsaken him. at that moment could he have done such a thing if he knew he was god? of course not.

well it's a pretty stupid story anyways.

>>40556684 (OP)
Yo what the fuck happened to the pic???

>>40556684 (OP)
Why would the Logos cause Jesus to pose as its avatar if the gospel is not true?

>>40556931
Me dumb, are you saying this discussion is pointless because Jesus' story is all fake?
I don't disagree but it's fun to assume that a faulty premise is valid for the sake of discussion, this way you can even find other ways in which the whole thesis fails.

>>40556905
>you got a good point, but believers think that Jesus took on all the suffering of all people who will ever live.
That's dumb, people have gone through MUCH worse than being whipped and nailed to a piece of wood.

>>40556905
>at that moment could he have done such a thing if he knew he was god?
Nevermind all the miracles he had performed up to that point.

>>40556963
Yes, but you have to, for the story to work, assume that Jesus had a much bigger capacity for suffering. So much so that he could carry all the suffering, the sin, and the doubt inside him, and still conquer it. That is how the story is construed.

>>40556966
Miracles are performed through Gods will, a regular man can perform a miracle if God wills it to be

>>40556973
So... just assume he held all that pain without it actually being directly inflicted upon him?
You sure have to assume alot for the story to work, I guess that's what they mean by faith.

>>40556977
>Miracles are performed through Gods will
Right, therefore validating that god does exist, Jesus had all the proof he needed to hold his faith.
Well... in a way I guess he never had any faith since he always knew for certain god exists, you are not supposed to have proof to have faith.
>a regular man can perform a miracle if God wills it to be
How convinient he suddenly stopped handing those out over a millenia ago uh?

>>40556985
Well, it's how the character is constructed. So why was Jesus so weird and effete all the time? Why did he speak in riddles and allegories? Because the whole time on the inside, Jesus was battling the Devil. He was the most saintly man, but also the most depraved and sin. The great tension inside him produced the greatest capacity for joy but also the greatest capacity for suffering.
Of course, you are free to interpret the Jesus character however you want. The one I offer here, is perhaps very Jewish.

>>40557001
>How convinient he suddenly stopped handing those out over a millenia ago uh?
Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't happen ;)

>>40557019
I've done drugs too, it's also just a great coincidence no new chapters for the Bible have been written since then too!

>the never ending FUD of Christ
this is how you know he was the real deal

>>40557081
>the never ending FUD of Hitler
this is how you know he was the real deal (not being ironic, I actually mean this)

>>40556949
No, the opposite. The Logos must exist. And thus it makes sense, given a loving God, that he would incarnate even in our filthy world to show his divine love for us. To my mind, the only serious candidate for the role of avatar on the human plane is Jesus Christ. But I have no reason to doubt that he appears differently on different planes of reality.

>>40556830
Right? How can any man even compete with that.

>>40556684 (OP)
Oh, look. Kike drivel.

>>40557102
Okay? But I think you failed to understand the point of the post?
I'm not arguing that a supposed "loving god" doesn't exist. I'm saying his avatar's mission waas flawed.
Jesus never lived as one of us, his faith was never tested in a way it happens to every other person because he already had all the confirmation that god was real and could end his own suffering at any moment.
Jesus cannot be the way to salvation for any man for this reason, jesus never had his faith truly tested.

>>40557127
Must suck to live in a world where the chosen ones act like demonspawn

>>40557046
No new chapters for the book that says "if you write new chapters you're going to hell" that's crazy!

>>40557132
>Okay? But I think you failed to understand the point of the post?
>I'm not arguing that a supposed "loving god" doesn't exist.
OK. So let's assume going forward that God exists and is all-loving.

>I'm saying his avatar's mission waas flawed.
If it was, it was not flawed to the extent of not accomplishing its purpose.

>Jesus never lived as one of us, his faith was never tested in a way it happens to every other person because he already had all the confirmation that god was real and could end his own suffering at any moment.
Very interesting point, but in the end you will understand that in fact he has indeed been in our shoes in many different ways....

>Jesus cannot be the way to salvation for any man for this reason, jesus never had his faith truly tested.
Lol, you don't know about those 'missing years', my friend.

>>40557162
>Lol, you don't know about those 'missing years', my friend.
Why would those matter?
Like I said, he already had all the confirmation he needed the moment he arrived in our world.
His coming was foretold and was visited by wise men that confirmed his divine origin.

>>40557236
>Like I said, he already had all the confirmation he needed the moment he arrived in our world.
You're taking the myth too literally. You yourself participate in Christ to the extent that you suffer for the sake of the Agape of the Many of your world.

>His coming was foretold and was visited by wise men that confirmed his divine origin.
Yes, in the myth. Myths symbolically correspond to the cycles of Life. They are truer than any history. Yet the truth ultimately is within you. Christ is the heart of the "I Am" and thus is everything, both the One in All and the All in One.

>>40556800
Christians worship Yaldabaoth.

>>40557081
We constantly tell trannies they will never be a real woman. All this fud is how they know they are the real deal.

almost like jesus has 12 apostles around him for a reason and also literally every other story in the bible from job to samson

“b-but how can i be sure!!!”

Shut up faggot. its called faith

>>40557348
>almost like jesus has 12 apostles around him for a reason
Those apostles also witnessed Jesus performing miracles, how can anyone have their faith falter after that experience?
How is any other man supposed to keep his faith like they did without the confirmation they had?

>>40557324
Sure but don't gnostics also believe in Jesus?
My point still applies.

>>40557376
Gnostics believe in Christ, there is a Christ who can be worshiped detached from Jesus. The Mind of Jesus, if you will, (if Jesus really was that)

>>40557324
>>40557376
>>40557394
You have ventured into the Outer Darkness. You know me... Relax!

>>40557090
>>40557337
what you're describing is esoteric to the highest order. the FUD of christ is commonplace, widespread and documented throughout nearly the entirety of human history. apples to oranges. there's nothing quite like the christ phenomenon

>>40557433
Honestly I don't understand why people don't just worship the Christ and live their lives

>>40557433
Emanation, arguably, requires two principles: a conceiver and a receiver...

... or does it?

We don't know for sure, but we can try...

Let's hash it out...

ok demon worshiper.

>>40557467
it is necessary for christ followers to spread the word as part of a prophecy that involves the destruction of organized religion. yes the christcuck zealotry is supposed to be that annoying

>>40557486
See Jesus posts this with no quotation to sew doubt as to whether the "Christ," as we see him, is a Demon. It's retarded imo

>>40557486
The Light of Christ is literally the only intrinsically self-proving Certain Knowledge

>>40557494
Do you feel bad for posting this, given that your message is so staunchly against Christ?

>>40557509
No because I have certain knowledge of Christ. So stop playing with words, what you really said, (as I read it), is, and this is not an interpretation or point-of-view, do you feel GUILTY that you don't believe MY "Jesus" is YOUR Christ? So no. Hope you get it!

>>40557509
>>40557517
Do YOU feel GUILTY when YOU worship this "Christ?"

>>40557517
>>40557523
just say you don't like me...

>>40557539
I tell Jesus I don't like him every day. He is so Messianic and egotistical that he literally doesn't believe it, and says I need more faith. So obnoxious to do this. When he successfully enacts the SLAVE REVOLT he says, "Oh, he's off his high-horse!" Just leave me ALONE

>>40556905
>at that moment could he have done such a thing if he knew he was god?
>>40556973
>you have to, for the story to work, assume that Jesus had a much bigger capacity for suffering.
Obviously Jesus was an archangel who was only disguised as a human. Much bigger capacity for suffering, check. Still capable of experiencing separation from God, check.

>>40557546
He's a Chandala, it literally Morally corrupts me to even CONCEIVE that "Jesus" is the Christ. You shouldn't have his name anywhere near you, if you have any degree of class. This is exactly why the Jews say he is boiling in a vat of Excrement, he wants to come as a thief, be the Final Cause, and then there will be no Caesar, no Rome, no Arete (Skill), no Art, only the NEW JERUSALEM decked in Jewels

tfw man still doesnt understand he is woman but vriska did nothing wrong
just admit you wanna fuck your sister bro, it's not hard

>>40557558
Caesar's Jewels. I literally 100% stake my soul as I profess to you that the New Jerusalem is bedecked in CAESAR'S JEWELS

>>40556684 (OP)
Jesus faith was tested, not just in the desert but also in the garden prior to His crucifixion.

>>40557558
Except, NO...

>>40557596
Good argument Chandala

>>40556684 (OP)
>But this goal is invalidated even before he was born
Christ stepped out of glory to coming to this world
> Jesus' faith was never tested
>And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
>Father, into your hands I commend my spirit

>who never actually gets true confirmation god is even real.
What is "true" confirmation? you don't even get it if you never hear his still small voice,
>Jesus never lived as a man, he cannot save anyone.
He was both God and a man.
>Isaiah 53 is probably the most famous example seen by Christians to be a messianic prophecy fulfilled by Jesus. It speaks of one known as the "suffering servant," who suffers because of the sins of others. Jesus is said to fulfill this prophecy through his death on the cross.

>>40557654
Amen.

>>40557624
What speaks against being given Life...

>>40556684 (OP)
This is a good argument for why he wasn’t claiming to be God in the sense that mainstream Christianity wants you to believe. He was a man like all of us but he simply realized the Self or Father in him, which anyone can do. This is why he says “you will do greater things than I” but only if you believe. He never said anything about having faith in the specific idea that he will die to save us from our sins, that whole story makes no sense and was added by Paul later. And yet he did die teaching the truth, and he also showed us through his death how to live. In this sense he sacrificed himself for us. When Jesus goes around performing miracles, he never explicitly says that he is the one forgiving sins. Rather, he says, “your sins are forgiven”. The key here is that is in YOUR power to forgive yourself. For most people this can only be achieved by believing in Jesus as a mediator. Christianity exists for the masses but also the enlightened who can read between the lines.

>>40556684 (OP)
You're a retard. It's possible to experience temptation even if one is so holy as to be safe from falling into sin through the temptation. And His divinity doesn't entail that He didn't suffer truly and fully and a human being:

>>40557992
>>40557992
that should be "as a human being," not "and a human being."

>>40557992
If Jesus was able to resist temptation perfectly, then why hasn’t anyone else been able to do the same? Did he have more free will or something? That seems unfair. Like what would have happened if Jesus used his free will to sin one day? What if he fell for the temptation? Would have been pretty awkward for the Son of God. You really think God would even allow that to happen in the first place?

>>40556684 (OP)
>How can the trials that jesus went through even compare to those of a true believer.

They can't. Only the Lord Jesus Christ has suffered the full anguish of the cross, which extended far beyond physical torment.

“And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.” (Luke 22:44)

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

>who never actually gets true confirmation god is even real.

If you are saved, you will know for sure.

>>40557978
He did claim to be God, quite a few times. He just refused to be direct about it and even warned His Disciples to not tell anyone who He was until He fulfilled His purpose here on earth.

>that he will die to save us from our sins
It makes perfect sense and Paul explains it perfectly.

>“you will do greater things than I”
because I am going to the Father."

Jesus also said
Luke 6:40
40 No disciple is superior to the teacher; but when fully trained, every disciple will be like his teacher.

>he never explicitly says that he is the one forgiving sins.
John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

>The key here is that is in YOUR power to forgive yourself.
Wrong. He does make it clear the importance of forgiving others, however. Although no one can forgive themselves of their sins.

>by believing in Jesus as a mediator.
That's exactly what is taught in the Bible. It's not between the lines lmao.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

You are not enlightened, you know nothing.

>>40558040
I guess you have no idea what I wrote. Are you illiterate or something? What did I say suggesting that I thought there was any possibility Christ could fall? Obviously He couldn't, because He was God. What I deny is that it had to be possible for Christ to fall for Him to experience temptation. Even ordinary human beings resist temptation all the time--such resistance doesn't negate their experience of temptation. I further deny that the fact that He was God prevented Him from truly and fully suffering as a human being--St. Thomas Aquinas clearly explains how this is the case. Also "fairness." Who said God is fair? The only Christians who think in such retarded liberal-modern terms only began to exist in the last century or so. God only saves those whom He elects and He elects before the consideration of merit. All who aren't among the elect are certainly damned. Clearly this is inconsistent with any liberal-modern faggotry about "fairness." God isn't a liberal. God isn't a Kantian. God isn't a utilitarian.
Also:
>assumes libertarian free will is real
>assumes a guy quoting St. Thomas Aquinas would believe in libertarian free will
Clown. It isn't my fault you're such an ignorant tard you think that all Christianity operates at the level of evangelical American hicks when the classical Christian (Catholic) tradition--the only real Christian tradition, in other words, which existed from the start, unlike all the others--doesn't share any of these stupid assumptions.

>>40558040
He was born without sin. That's why. It also explains clearly in the Bible

James 1:14-15
14 Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.

>lured and enticed by his own desire

John 5:30
30 “I cannot do anything on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

Luke 22:42
42 saying, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done.” [a]

>not my will but yours be done

How can one be tempted of "desires" when the Lord's will was to do the will of the Father?

>>40558193
God is fair because His judgment is righteous and just.

>>40558193
So Jesus experienced temptation but couldn’t have sinned even if he wanted to. Um, ok.

>God just sends random people to hell and random people to heaven because FUCK YOU
wtf

>>40558212
He did experience temptation in the garden. It's obvious when He prayed to the Father if He may be excused of the suffering He knew He was about to have to endure and die because of what He knew was the Father's will. I don't know what that guy's problem is either, God is 100% fair in everything. He is righteousness, love, justice, vengeance and wrath (to those who deserve it).

>>40558207
Yes, God is just and righteous. But His justice and righteousness have no part whatsoever in faggoty liberal-modern conceptions of "fairness."

>>40558212
>>40558226
>morons shocked to discover that true Christianity, a religion from Eternal God, isn't a gay religion built on libshits' "fairness" morality that's about a few centuries old and was primarily developed by people who hate Christianity.

You're trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, mate. You're talking about God here. They call it a mystery for a reason. You assume Jesus knew with 100% certainty that he is God from birth. I don't believe that's true and I don't think there's any proof that it is. He would have had to be put on the cross and resurrected to 100% fulfill the prophecies to know without a doubt he was the "chosen one" as you call it. Furthermore, you assume the ultimate goal of the Christian is to "not sin". That's not why we're here. We're here to multiply, to rule over this world, to grow in our relationship with God and share it with others. When I say "grow in our relationship with God" I mean we are going through a process of purification; being transformed to be more like Him. We don't have to be perfect right now and worrying about perfection misses the point. The point is to allow Him to form us so that we will become perfect, like Him, and through that sin is an inevitability, but it is not an end. This is all test after test, trial by fire and sometimes respite. How you pass your test is not by "not sinning" it's by how you love Him. Finally, another anon brought up a good point. Everything Jesus did came from God and as followers of Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit of God. Thus, we are capable of everything Jesus was capable of because we are empowered by God. If it is His will, then it will be done.

>>40558324
>>40558303
Your heart is calloused and you have no understanding of the faith you claim. No one is destined for damnation. It clearly states in the Bible that the Father wants all to repent and be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Matthew 5:45
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

>>40558358
>No one is destined for damnation.
Save for Satan and his angels. But that's solely due to the fact that they are angels and not humans. They have no excuse, when they sin they know exactly what they're doing because they know God directly. Humans, on the other hand; don't.

>>40558324
And there's a reason why God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of food. He clearly disrespected God for doing that, and God's feelings towards Esau were entirely justified because of that. But we see despite the fact that Esau still prospers in his own way and both Esau and Jacob eventually reconcile and no hard feelings are found between them ever again.

>>40558358
God wills all to be saved in the sense that He issues commands for all men to follow that, if followed, would lead to salvation. But His consequent will by which His eternal and infallible plan for creation is fulfilled does NOT include the salvation of all men--hence some are lost. God passes over some souls, does not grant them efficacious grace, and thus, they remain in sin and are damned:

>St. Augustine affirmed an infralapsarian-esque theology of reprobation .... The implication of such an argument is no small matter. For, this vindicates, at least in this area of soteriology, the claim of the Thomists and Infralapsarians to be “Augustinian.” His strong statements, proofs, and vindications of his theology on this matter shows that this was no minor issue for Augustine, but struck at the very heart of his debate with the Pelagian. To those who rage against the Catholic and Orthodox theology of St. Augustine and slander the great Doctor of the Church Catholic as “harsh,” I will leave a quote from the Doctor Gratiae himself:

>Therefore let us believe in His mercy in the case of those who are delivered, and in His truth in the case of those who are punished, without any hesitation; and let us not endeavour to look into that which is inscrutable, nor to trace that which cannot be found out...who gives to those men to whom He will, because He is merciful, what if, however, He does not give, He is righteous: and He does not give to whom He will not, that He may make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy. For by giving to some what they do not deserve, He has certainly willed that His grace should be gratuitous, and thus genuine grace; by not giving to all, He has shown what all deserve. Good in His goodness to some, righteous in the punishment of others; both good in respect of all, because it is good when that which is due is rendered, and righteous in respect of all, since that which is not due is given without wrong to any one.

>>40558410
>does NOT include the salvation of all men
Obviously not, but this does not mean they are destined for damnation. If God wishes all to repent, then it's clear He doesn't want anyone to suffer eternal damnation, but also understands that man has freewill to decide for himself what he ultimately wants. That doesn't imply God is predestining people into hell before they're ever born.

>does not grant them efficacious grace, and thus, they remain in sin and are damned:
Due to their stubbornness and hardness of heart. It's not because it's God's will that they suffer for eternity.

With all due respect, I don't care what St. Augustine has to say about this. The Bible makes it clear that we are all judged in accordance to what is in our hearts, not because of what God has pre-ordained for any of us. We ultimately as individuals have to make the decision as to whether we wish to repent or not, and that has their own due consequences for whichever is chosen.

>>40558433
>does not mean they are destined for damnation.
*predestined for damnation

>>40558433
>I don't care what St. Augustine has to say about this
And, with all due respect, I don't care what modern libby evangelical protestants hallucinate in their "readings" of the Bible (notice that even the intellectually serious protestants, like Luther and Calvin, agreed with the doctrine of predestination that I'm presenting or promoted even more severe versions of it). I'll take the towering intellects of the Church Fathers and the Scholastics over those who read the Bible so as to make themselves feel warm and fuzzy inside.

God doesn't predestine people to hell before they are born. He predestines some to salvation before they are born. In the case of the damned, He does not so predestine them. Because they are not predestined, they are left to their own natures which are defectible, and hence they fall into sin and remain in such a state until death. Having so died, they are damned according to their sins. So while men are not damned from the outset, they are negatively reprobated (permitted to sin and not finally rescued from their sin) from the outset, which culminates in their damnation.

While man has free will, everything that comes to pass, does so infallibly and inevitably according to the divine will. Man's free will in relation to God is properly understood in what is often called "compatibilist" terms, not "libertarian" terms. God is the source of all being. He does not sit around "waiting on" men to see how they will act. He knows all they will do, because all they do falls under His will, either because He has decreed it or permitted it.

>>40558470
>And, with all due respect, I don't care what modern libby evangelical protestants hallucinate in their "readings" of the Bible
I'm neither of those, you are attacking a strawman and are clearly frustrated. I find it quite fascinating how you don't challenge anything I've said, because ultimately you know I'm right. And you know that because I provided straight forward, clear cut Bible verses that aren't up for interpretation.

Again, I don't care what Luther or Calvin have to say, either. It's obvious that no human is pre-destined for hell. God doesn't want anyone to suffer, but He allows it because He respects free will. He even respected Satan's free will by allowing him to rebel.

>they are left to their own natures which are defectible, and hence they fall into sin and remain in such a state until death.
Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

We are all in a fallen state, and thus our human nature seeks to override our desire to search for God and repent our sins to Him. This is the default for every human being that has been born here on earth since the fall.

I agree that God knows all, but that doesn't mean our fate is solidified before we are born. Because if that was the case, then there'd be no need for repentance, neither forgiveness, neither salvation or damnation. So while yes, God knows everything; that doesn't mean that because God knows everything that we cannot do anything on our own will. Because if that was the case, why would the system of forgiveness and salvation fall on the necessity of man having to willfully repent to God of their sins? You know why? Because God honors, values and respects our free will.

>>40558470
>create humans that are doomed to be retarded and suffer and sin from the start
>save a few of them for no reason at all except to show them you’re the Boss and can do whatever the fuck you want
yeah… I think I’ll stick with the theory of evolution.

>>40558541
Don't listen to that guy. He is being disingenuous.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

>>40558495
>I provided straight forward, clear cut Bible verses that aren't up for interpretation.

"The Bible auto-interprets for me! I just know what it means by looking at it as an ignorant hick with no relevant knowledge!"

I DID provide a refutation. I provided an accurate analysis already stating clearly what God's "will that all be saved" amounts to here in the form of a screenshot: >>40558410

>Again, I don't care what Luther or Calvin have to say, either. It's obvious that no human is pre-destined for hell. God doesn't want anyone to suffer, but He allows it because He respects free will. He even respected Satan's free will by allowing him to rebel.

You deny being the kind of libby clown Christian I said you are, and yet adopt their exact theology. So it's just a coincidence that you think the way those idiots do?

Here are some Bible verses which you seem to be failing to account for. Surely you understand that any credible theology has to account for all of the Biblical data?

>According as He hath chosen us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

And from Romans 9:

> For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God HAS MERCY ON WHOM HE WANTS TO HAVE MERCY, and HE HARDENS WHOM HE WANTS TO HARDEN. One of you will say to me: “THEN WHY DOES GOD STILL BLAME US? FOR WHO IS ABLE TO RESIST HIS WILL?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath—PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION?

>>40558541
Catholicism doesn't insist on any given theory of biological origins. Most Catholics accept mainstream evolutionary biology. Try again.

>>40556684 (OP)
this is a fair argument. I've never seen a fair argument for the existence of religion. I have my own belief so I guess it's a religion. I can't even explain my own. logically I can. that's about it.

>>40558545
Knowing theology and Scripture is "being disingenuous" to an idiot. What a shock.
>Oh! You're telling me God isn't just a big communist bureaucrat in the sky Whose only purpose is to make every last person superduper happy!? You're insane! Obviously God's morality is the same as all the commie-lib faggots who hate Him!

>>40558568
yeah but I don’t need religion to explain why humans are retarded and make bad decisions. We’re barely above monkeys in the evolutionary chain, we still have a lot of improvements to make. Our brains could be even bigger and more complex, with an emphasis on rational thought, and better control over primitive emotions that evolved over hundreds of thousands of years in a hunter-gatherer environment, which is why we have such sins like gluttony, lust, sloth, etc. It’s really hard to sin when you live in a natural environment where there isn’t an abundance of food, pornography, material possessions, people, etc. So a lot of our flaws are just the result of a rapidly changing environment due to technological progress while our biology doesn’t evolve as fast. Still, some people are more fit than others, and over time we should expect people to be less sinful in certain ways, though there will arise new types of sins as we adapt to newer environments.

All of this makes infinitely more sense than the contradictory mess that’s going on in the Bible.
>just use your free will bro!
>God controls everything and will send you to hell, lmao!
>the demons made me do it!
>it was that dang ol’ Adam’s fault! Now I wanna fap all the time!
>God makes some people smarter and less prone to sin because… it’s funny lol
>Jesus had free will but he didn’t sin because… he’s GOD obviously. Why don’t humans act perfectly, you ask? FREE WILL, dumbass.

>>40558562
>For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Yes, and we see that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Now, what does it mean to harden? Does it mean to manifest something out of thin air, or does it mean to solidify what is already there? God didn't force Pharaoh to be heartless, Pharaoh was already heartless. Due to Pharaoh's negligence to do the right thing, God solidified what was there.

>Therefore God HAS MERCY ON WHOM HE WANTS TO HAVE MERCY
Yes, He does. That is made clear in Exodus, as well. Which is what Paul was referencing.

>THEN WHY DOES GOD STILL BLAME US? FOR WHO IS ABLE TO RESIST HIS WILL?
We are blamed due to our own sinful nature and choices in life. God doesn't force anyone to sin, that would go against His will which is for all of us to repent and be saved.

>PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION?
Yes, but not before time, or even before they had any choice in the matter. We see that Israel and Egypt had great relations due to Joseph and we even know that God had prophesied of what was going to happen in Egypt long before it happened. (Genesis 15).

God doesn't make anyone to sin, that would again, go against His will which is for all to be saved. You are wrongly interpreting that verse and are ironically doing what you claim I'm doing and that's solely due to your lack of understanding of what you're talking about.

>BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
That is in reference to the elect. This, again doesn't impede on anyone's free will.
2 Timothy 4:10
for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia.

Even Apostles were capable of falling away from the faith.

>>40558579
You are desperate to force politics into something where it doesn't fit and keep arguing against a strawman. You're clearly delusional and are filled with blind hatred.

>>40558599
>All of this makes infinitely more sense than the contradictory mess that’s going on in the Bible.
There are no contradictions, you are arguing with a politically driven clown who uses the Christian faith as a way to justify his political views. Don't take him serious.

I can never tell if these are real people or just literal demons making these posts and rambling on enough to sound intellectual among the non-believers

>>40558620
Wolf in sheeps clothing, absolutely. Pay attention to the fact as to how all his arguments against me are politically driven. It's a demon larping as a Catholic attempting to throw dirt on the faith to try and discredit what it's really about.

>>40558599
>just use your free will bro!
The Bible contains no concept of *libertarian* free will. This has been imposed on it by modern idiots.
>God controls everything and will send you to hell, lmao!
Any given person may or may not be in the elect or be among the reprobate. Your point?
>the demons made me do it!
You again confuse what retarded modern hick Christians say vs. what is actually in the authentic Christian tradition. No Christian believes demons directly *cause* anyone to sin.
>it was that dang ol’ Adam’s fault! Now I wanna fap all the time!
Adam lost for his descendants supernatural gifts that would've saved them from concupiscence. This is analogous to a profligate father wasting his wealth and leaving his children no inheritance. The "problem" with this idea is what, exactly?
>God makes some people smarter and less prone to sin because… it’s funny lol
God loves everyone, but He doesn't love everyone equally. He does not provide people the same spiritual and natural gifts. Again--therefore, what? What obligates God to do things any differently? Why do you think God must operate as if He were a liberal faggot concerned about what such fags call "distributive justice"?
>Jesus had free will but he didn’t sin because… he’s GOD obviously.
Most of the problem here is that you're too stupid to understand the different senses of "free will" and you impose understandings of the term on (real) Christians that they don't hold. Christ didn't have "free will" in any sense that would've enabled Him to sin--no one is saying that other than you, a retard.
>Why don’t humans act perfectly, you ask? FREE WILL, dumbass.
This is again a modern idiot Christian view. Humans sin ultimately because they are defectible. They are finite created agents and, not being God, they tend naturally to failure without divine preservation in goodness. Still, they exercise their own wills when they sin and are damnable accordingly.(1/2)

>>40558599
>>40558665
Even many secular philosophers argue that such compatibilist free will--free will compatible with the determination of everything agents do by forces outside of themselves--allows agents to be held morally responsible for their actions. This is not a uniquely Christian idea.

>>40558602
You deliberately respond to only parts of the words of St. Paul, because you cannot actually refute the clear fact that he preaches the same doctrine of predestination that I offer, that St. Augustine offers, that St. Thomas offers, etc.

Take this retardation of yours:
>We are blamed due to our own sinful nature and choices in life. God doesn't force anyone to sin, that would go against His will which is for all of us to repent and be saved.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with, and can in no way be derived from, the plain meaning of the text you were supposed to respond to. Rather, it is a flat denial of it. Yes, we are condemned on account of OUR SINS. But St. Paul clearly recognizes that humans are ultimately in the situations they're in due to the infallible will of God. And his only response to people who complain about this ultimate reality is to remind them that God has all authority and can govern creation however He wants. St. Paul does NOT say that some sort of total metaphysical independence from the will of God through free will is what makes people blameworthy, as clowns like you would have it. God is under no obligation to save anyone, let alone everyone. He can reprobate whom He wants and save whom He wants.

>>40558620
Or maybe you're a fruitcake who thinks any theology other than "God exists to make everyone fuzzywuzzy inside" is "demonic" because it offends your gay sensibilities.

>>40558706
I basically covered everything important in regards to the topic at hand. Yet another disingenuous argument from you. Not surprised in the slightest.

>This has nothing whatsoever to do with, and can in no way be derived from, the plain meaning of the text you were supposed to respond to.
Yes, it does. That was in response to the prior statement made. The prior argument had to do with Pharaoh's hardening of heart, which I assume you agree with my argument since you hold no refutation to anything I said. If you pay attention to what I said, then it makes it clear that Pharaoh was made an example of, and had his heart hardened (again, you cannot harden something that isn't already there). Pharaoh was blamed for obvious reasons, and yes, how can anyone contest God's will in regards to His judgment towards us? That's impossible because He is the judge, not us. He knows us better than we know ourselves. But just because God forms us as "pottery" does not by any means imply that we are incapable of changing for the better, or even for the worse.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. / So if anyone cleanses himself of what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor: sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared for every good work.

>St. Paul clearly recognizes that humans are ultimately in the situations they're in due to the infallible will of God.
Not at all. Humans are ultimately in the situations they are in due to their choices to adhere to or deny what God wills for us.

>God is under no obligation to save anyone, let alone everyone. He can reprobate whom He wants and save whom He wants.
He has established a clear cut system in regards to salvation or damnation. Is He under any obligation? Not at all. But it has nothing to do with favoritism and everything to do with whether the individual repents or not.

>>40558754
>Not at all. Humans are ultimately in the situations they are in due to their choices to adhere to or deny what God wills for us.
From the words of Paul himself

Romans 2:5-11
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works:[a] 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 [b]There is no partiality with God.

>>40558754
>I basically covered everything important in regards to the topic at hand.

No you didn't. And you're ignoring more important points I made again. You completely and conveniently ignore the fact that St. Paul says nothing whatsoever about free will in response to the hypothetical complaint regarding the irresistibility of God's will for those who are "blamed" (sinners), not Pharaoh. His lack of appeal to free will here is incredibly telling. He appeals only to the sovereignty of God and His ability to form people--the elect and the reprobate--however He wants.

>But it has nothing to do with favoritism and everything to do with whether the individual repents or not.

Are you a Pelagian heretic? Do you even know what that means? No one can be saved without God's providing efficacious grace. And no one can somehow merit this grace. It is a free gift that God gives only to some, prior to the consideration of merit.

>Humans are ultimately in the situations they are in due to their choices to adhere to or deny what God wills for us.

It is our sin that leads us to hell. We do have free will, in a compatibilist sense, through which we sin and are thus damned. But at the truly ultimate level, it is impossible to avoid damnation without the efficacious grace of God. And God doesn't grant this grace to everyone. The fault for damnation is therefore attributed to the damned, but it is a mistake to think that this damnation is not under the permissive, rather than active, will of God, and so is certain to occur for those who suffer it. God does NOT actively will sin, which is a consequence of lacking goodness in creatures--but His permission of sin ensures that it will occur in creation. God could only be blamed for this if He were bound to provide sufficient goodness to creatures to stop them from sinning, or from sinning to the point of damnation. But He is not bound to provide such goodness to anyone.

>>40556905
>he even faced the despair on the cross as he called out and asked why god had forsaken him.
he was quoting the psalms

>>40558805
>You completely and conveniently ignore the fact that St. Paul says nothing whatsoever about free will
Paul makes free will clearly evident in other verses, one in which I've already shown in my post here
>>40558770

>His ability to form people--the elect and the reprobate--however He wants.
Just because He can, doesn't mean He does. Check verse above.

Jesus also makes free will clearly evident in Mark 8:34
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

>Whoever wants
>must deny themselves

Now if we don't have free will and God predetermines things in our lives in regards to salvation, then why would Jesus call for discipleship in the way of us needing to do things to prove our worthiness? What about when Jesus called the rich man to let go of all of his possession to follow Him? The rich man was called, but refused the Lord because he couldn't let go of his riches. That right there proves free will. Why would Jesus expect any of us to take action in regards to our salvation if free will doesn't exist?

>It is a free gift that God gives only to some
blasphemy. It is a gift to all, but not all are willing to accept it.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

>And God doesn't grant this grace to everyone.
It's offered to everyone. It's just that not everyone is willing to repent and thus keeps them from being able to receive it.

>>40558860
Sorry, but you simply are too retarded and ignorant to even begin to understand what I'm saying or participate in this conversation.

You keep thinking I deny the existence of free will. I do not. I understand free will along compatibilist lines. You understand it along libertarian lines, but are too dumb to even know that or give it the proper name. The passages you cite to prove libertarian free will do not do so. They only prove that there is free will of some kind--and only compatibilist free will can be squared with the whole of Scripture coherently.

You go on now to confuse sufficient and efficacious grace, and the fact that Christ's sacrifice is more than sufficient to save all (were all given the grace to accept the faith finally) with the idea that God's ultimate consequent will is to save all (that cannot be His will, because His consequent will cannot be frustrated, and not all are saved). God offers all persons "sufficient grace." This sufficient grace is the universal influence of Christ that orders men to salvation. But it does not ensure the salvation of all men. The only grace that ensures salvation is efficacious grace--and it is the necessity of freely receiving this efficacious grace to be saved, which as many verses of Scripture attest is given before the consideration of merit, that makes it possible for God to foreknow the elect from before their very creation. Only SOME are among the elect. Hence only SOME receive this grace. That is how God knows them in advance of their doing anything.

Before you continue braying like a retarded animal that these basic theological concepts are "blasphemous," maybe do some reading into the distinction compatibilism vs. libertarianism in philosophy of religion, and into sufficient vs. efficacious grace.

>>40558927
>They only prove that there is free will of some kind
It's free will, which we all have. Which is why the system that God has established for us to be saved must come from our own heart and desires to repent want to be with Him. He doesn't force us. He doesn't create some who will repent and create others who will not. It's free game, basically. Those who want to be saved, will repent. Those that don't, wont. It's very simple and you refuse to acknowledge this because your heart is calloused and you want to make God appear in a certain manner that isn't what He is truly about.

>with the idea that God's ultimate consequent will is to save all (that cannot be His will
It is, I already shared the verses that prove this lol.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

> that makes it possible for God to foreknow the elect from before their very creation.
not everyone who is saved is the elect and not everyone is foreknown to be saved, which is where the argument of free will comes in. Yes, there are those who are elect in which God had something huge planned in their lives to fulfill in regards to His will, but just because God already knows who will and won't be saved, doesn't mean that God overrides man's will in regard to their potential for salvation.

>>40558927
>Before you continue braying like a retarded animal
I forgive you. Your pride is astounding. You are exalting yourself, and you will be humbled.

>>40558959
>not everyone is foreknown to be saved
>foreknown
*predestined

>>40557492
agreed

>>40558959
>not everyone who is saved is the elect

This is nonsense. More prot "reading" (hallucinating the contents) of the Bible. It is also just a bald assertion, so don't pretend you have "proven" this garbage.

>It's free will, which we all have

Oh, so you're going to remain too stubbornly retarded to even look into the different senses in which free will is understood and how these different senses have been used in Christian theology and philosophy? OK, so you are fundamentally not worth engaging with and simply want to remain an ignorant clown who thinks himself an authority on the Bible for no reason. "Durr I read it! I must understand it all!"

>The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This verse doesn't concern God's consequent will. It concerns his antecedent will. Again, basic distinctions are lost on you and you refuse to even try to correct your ignorance.

>doesn't mean that God overrides man's will in regard to their potential for salvation

Once again, you are too illiterate to even start to understand what I've repeatedly written. I agree that God doesn't "override" our free will. We have free will (of a compatibilist kind). It is through the exercise of it that we go to hell. This has been part and parcel of my whole argument, which you fundamentally are unable or unwilling to grasp.

>>40559016
>This verse doesn't concern God's consequent will.
It concerns His absolute will with man, which is why He came down to earth in the flesh to establish a new covenant that provides salvation, which is the answer to our fallen state and to fix what had originally been done through Adam. That is His absolute will, which is why even in Genesis this is prophesied.

>It is through the exercise of it that we go to hell.
Or heaven, as made clear in what Paul said here

Romans 2:5-11
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works:[a] 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 [b]There is no partiality with God.

Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I don't understand you. You are very arrogant. You also project a lot.

>>40559016
>This verse doesn't concern God's consequent will. It concerns his antecedent will.

I like how 90% of the posts here didn't actually address the point of the thread and turned into general Christian discussion thread.

>>40559081
>I'm too retarded to know basic shit about a topic
>This makes you the clown

>>40559038
>durr projection!
>durr arrogant!
These are typical copes of retarded losers who think that other people having meaningful understanding of things is an insult to them. >"durrr you think you better than me? You not as retarded and ignorant as I am huh? What, you think reading stuff makes you superior!?"
>Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I don't understand you.
No, you are visibly too stupid to understand anything I've written, which is why you can't respond to anything I actually argued but only to things you confuse with what I really argued (for example, writing as if I denied free will). I am, after all, talking to a clown who thinks he knows Scripture better than St. Augustine and St. Thomas.
>It concerns His absolute will with man
"Absolute will" being a concept with no actual meaning that you pulled from nowhere. What God wills consequently must occur. But not all are saved. So He cannot consequently will the salvation of all. He wills the salvation of all in the sense that He offers to all salvation and commands all to take up His offer. His doing that is consistent with His permitting some to fall into hell--all of whom He did not elect.

>>40557546
We can't help but look ridiculous

>>40556684 (OP)
Jesus couldn't have his faith tested because he was God by his own existence his Faith was unshakable.
Mary and Joseph the Prince and Princess of the Line of David were the ones who were tested.
That said Jesus had a human nature as we see in the Garden and The Torture and Crucifixion. Infact we are shown in the Garden that Jesus asks to make it even more painful when he takes all the Sin of All time upon himself. Also in the desert his human body is still hungry.

Back to Mary and Joseph. It is VERY important that these two were tested and succeeded in their own trials. Mary by her absolute submission to the Will of God and in doing do correcting the Sin of Eve and Joseph by his Patience and total trust in God redeemed the Line of David which he handed over to Jesus as the Rightful King of Israel.

This is the issue with the Protestant denial of the Saints because yes you are correct Jesus can't be the Model for he is God. Mary is the Model of Christians and Joseph is called Light of Patriarchs. Their example of total trust in God is what we are meant to Model ourselves after.

Jesus is the Bread of Life, Mary is the Ark that carried the Bread of Life and Joseph is the Portector of the Ark as a Son of David.
Next The Church and Saints are the Mystical Body of Christ the example of how to be like Christ is lived through them as well. That is why the Acts of the Apostles and understanding tradition is so important.

Nice try Gnostic.

>>40557546
Even Nietzsche, the psychotic who came up with the "slave revolt" idea, in the end didn't attribute the supposed "slave revolt" to Christ, but to His followers (whom he of course completely misunderstood, because Nietzsche didn't understand that it was not true Christianity, but liberal protestant "Christianity" that he opposed and hated). He saw in Christ's life admirable detachment and freedom from ressentiment. (1/2)

>>40560476
>What God wills consequently must occur. But not all are saved. So He cannot consequently will the salvation of all. He wills the salvation of all in the sense that He offers to all salvation and commands all to take up His offer. His doing that is consistent with His permitting some to fall into hell--all of whom He did not elect.
I'm glad we can finally agree with eachother.

>>40560646
>>40557546
(2/2)

>>40560663
>>40557546
one more

1 Corinthians 13:1-13


13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

>>40560654
You could only think this if you (1) changed your mind or (more likely) (2) misunderstood what I wrote again.

>>40560689
Funnily enough you are projecting yet again. Your argument had slowly changed throughout the discussion but it seems that you've finally argued correctly. Also, here's a chapter to contemplate.

>>40560677

You should read 1 Corinthians 13 today and really think about what Paul was trying to relay here, because it's obvious that you have forgotten. Have a good day.

>>40560733
>Your argument had slowly changed throughout the discussion
No it hasn't. Once again, you simply reveal you're an illiterate retard who hasn't understood anything I've said. I've consistently argued for the same things from the beginning--as any literate person can see here:
>>40558193
>>40558470
>You should read 1 Corinthians 13
You do not live by what St. Paul taught. Pretending to be nice while teaching heretical "feel-good" doctrines, and committing the very serious sin of calling "blasphemous" anyone who doesn't follow your Pelagian garbage, doesn't make you a good Christian. I know faggots like to believe that, but they're wrong.