It's me again. I wrote this thread: https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/40534629

I was just watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Le9_gRrow

And it occurred to me I could take the hemisphere translation of his and put it onto the lens model.

right hemisphere (left hand) = low (broad) focus
left hemisphere (right hand) = high (specific) focus

sensation -> low focus map -> high focus map -> image
physical sensation -> instinct -> logic -> virtual image
bodily sensation -> virtual image -> logic -> instinct

Do you see? There are two forms of sensation: from the inner world and from the outer world. Sensations from the inner world have a reverse sequence of operations using the same tools that we use to experience the outer world.

Ultimately, this means his cave metaphor can be viewed as the physical sensation cycle or the bodily sensation cycle. The former would say that leaving the cave is impossible, and the latter would say that you originate outside of the cave (because you originate inside of yourself, not because you come from a star or anything) and would thus be only "going back to it", which is precisely what Plato alluded to (correctly, I might add).

>>40606516 (OP)
when the dude says 'liberated in such a way' in reference to individual hemispheres was he referencing a corpus colectomy?

>>40606516 (OP)
>right hemisphere (left hand) = low (broad) focus
>left hemisphere (right hand) = high (specific) focus
Thinking a little more about this, maybe the most important (and probably inevitable) part is handedness, because you need imperfection between the low and high focus to even be deemed "conscious" in the first place. Your existence is a third focus lying in between the broad focus and the narrow focus waves, creating the imbalance for control/handedness in the brain.

>>40606533
Timestamp?

>>40606545
4:36

>>40606549
Pretty much that. He talks about split brain experiments in his book. Sometimes this is also due to trauma to part of the brain (such as a nail going through the skull), so the sample size of the study is not just epilepsy treatment patients.

>>40606545
>because you need imperfection between the low and high focus to even be deemed "conscious" in the first place.
could you say this bit in another way, your chosen terse leaves much room for interpretation.

>>40606516 (OP)

>Ultimately, this means his cave metaphor can be viewed as the physical sensation cycle or the bodily sensation cycle.

Fun reinterpretation. Interesting too how that specialization came to be cognitively. Toolmaking? Ever tried to split a blade from a piece of flint?

>>40606516 (OP)
would your views change if you concluded there are no analogues in sensory input and all perceptive outputs are functionally the external directly transmuted and discreted unto ones own?

>>40606583
If the low and high focus are completely unimpeded, or completely balanced, then there is no self. The feeling of the self arises as dissonance is created, and the self dissipates when when the dissonance is integrated.

>>40606583
>>40606603
I'm using "good sense of self" as my barometer for what is conscious, at least as an operational definition here.

>>40606592
>Interesting too how that specialization came to be cognitively. Toolmaking?
I'm guessing there's some extreme precision here. If you could take the geometry of the crystalline structure of the stone and define the acceptable range of precision required to sharpen the stone, the distance would be quite small.

>Ever tried to split a blade from a piece of flint?
I've seen someone lose his mind over this. He doesn't have a real life job, and he spent at least a decade of his adulthood trying to re-wild himself (and failing miserably). It's a rather odd but consistent pattern I find. As soon as men feel comfortable, they begin to revert to nature as much as possible. Not saying it's a bad thing, although there are reasonable and less reasonable ways to do it.

>>40606603
its a very crux thing to weigh the nature of self against and again youve used vague terms could you compound on impeded, like are you implying the corpus colosseum (the djed pillar) an imposition to the focus of each hemisphere? a imposition to a hemisphears function could equally be the electrical resistance of the neuros which would imply one could dissolve the self with neuros made of superconductive monatomic gold?

>>40606617
>I'm using "good sense of self" as my barometer for what is conscious, at least as an operational definition here.
by what criteria do you define and different a good sense of self from a poor one?
personally i hold - a body in motion with the potential for self reference - as a model of consciousness where ones emotions are simultaneously what moves the body and the body of reference the self carries from past and future momentously.

>>40606602
Ah, there is always preprocessing of the sensation, you're saying? That does align with what I know of the nervous system, particularly the eye but also I think other parts such as the heart.

Maybe these nervous system clusters are what the tree of life is all about. I once read it was about the endocrine system, but really it's the local nervous system cluster controlling that particular endocrine function.

In any case, I see your point, and I agree with you. It seems like a cycle is still correctly seen as 4 variables, but your names for them change depending on perspective. They aren't actually different variables or nodes on the graph.

>>40606635
my intent in this wasnt to critique your state cycle but "ecause you originate inside of yourself
>preprocessing
when i was first taught how the eye works the tldr was - a mechnisim generates an electrical signal as an analogue to light stimulation, the model i hold now is that the eye directly changes the light into the signal.
if the later is the case we do not originate inside ourselves.
as without, so within

>>40606625
I'm not suggesting that the left and right brain are actually the territory. They could be the map. Look up map vs territory.

My point is that you have two autonomous processes in you. These are the broad focus instincts and the narrow focus rational mind. They can just run on automatic, although you can also pretend to identify as either of these thought processes. The point is that these are emotions, not truly thoughts. Focus is an emotion. So, thought emerges from the conflict between low and high level focus.

This is what a lot of colorful metaphor is used to describe... the masculine and the feminine, for instance, although I don't like using gender in gnostic ideas. Instead of masculine vs feminine (which most aptly relates to testosterone and estrogen), you can say adult vs child. However, also keep in mind that this child is not literally you as a child. It is colored by your memories at whatever age you experienced certain hormone levels, but utlimately the "child-like" in everyone is the state of elevated hormones, whereas the adult in everyone is the different assortment of hormones, creating different emotions leading to different balances in consciousness (between focus on the specific and on the general). Meaning, the self is essentially guiding the body between various states of drunkenness and sobriety.

>>40606635
oh and ps
the singularity that is the archon is the acorn that is the seed of the tee of life of which a fractal iteration still resides chained at the heart of all cells - hence original sin being pls no eat of the branch

>>40606617

>If you could take the geometry of the crystalline structure of the stone and define the acceptable range of precision required to sharpen the stone ...

... indeed! Now examining that process, you would like to probe for natural break lines. How? You hold the flint in one hand (likely the left) and make soft probing bangs with a harder rock (in the right). Now sound might tell you a bit in this but it is likely imprecise ... but vibration felt through the palm of your hand? Not implausible. Now once (through the left) the internal structure of the flint has been felt the right then needs to perform a strong precision strike to chip off a useful blade ... likely not how it evolved initially (assume even apes got a gripping hand) but for a tool maker this could have become even more pronounced over the generations.

>they begin to revert to nature as much as possible

Often just an Ersatzhandlung. People on treadmills, hamsters in wheels .... what these lack is a focus. Just mindless exercise, never understood the appeal. Guess not all require proper neuron activation here anymore.

>>40606633
>by what criteria do you define and different a good sense of self from a poor one?
Well, it would be an answer similar to the handedness of the mind. You'd measure consciousness by both its strength and flexibility. I believe the brain is structured as "small world networks" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_network), meaning that strength determines the density of the worlds and flexibility measures the connections between worlds. So, you have the cyclic OODA loop played out over spacetime, where clusters of nerves represent the worlds and their long fibers the connections between them.

Intelligence on some level is the ability to marshall a highly computationally flexible and yet powerful simulation. The product of these values is what we roughly assess as IQ.

>>40606669
>Often just an Ersatzhandlung. People on treadmills, hamsters in wheels .... what these lack is a focus. Just mindless exercise, never understood the appeal. Guess not all require proper neuron activation here anymore.
Yes, although the activities can be quite rewarding when engaged with focus. I personally find that I tend to only obsess over activities that I can't acquire the focus I want for it, but I'm getting a lot better at recognizing which problems are better left unanswered.

>>40606673
would you describe yourself as left brain leaning?
> You'd measure consciousness by both its strength and flexibility.
like really left brain leaning?
you could measure the strength and flexibility of every vehicular chassis on earth and be no closer to defining the car as a means of moving people from place to place then you were before you began your measurements, with less to say about what (or whom) is the driver.

>>40606673
also, just a yes no if ya would, is consciousness the prime material from which all other systems arise?

>>40606677

>I personally find that I tend to only obsess over activities that I can't acquire the focus I want for it

Would that translate to the "Orient" part of your loop model? Focus sounds like internal orientation.

>>40606728
contextualize yourself with the observation.

>>40606752

Jup. And sometimes might wanna step back to observation at this point. Not to act on insufficient data and all. Confidently excluding outside (and inside) distraction a failure to pass focus could mean there is no clear enough picture available for precise and directed action. This could as well be an internal "left-right" circuit.

>>40606689
>would you describe yourself as left brain leaning?
>like really left brain leaning?
Only to the extent that I want total satisfaction with an idea, at least in that sense. My left brain is hungry so to speak. However, my right brain is perfectly capable. It's just by its nature a slower process to train a system that is inherently dense, whereas a sparse system can be trained quickly. I guess my bias is towards progress.

>>40606801
good way to get stuck in an ooooooooo loop where all you do is observe and orientate, sometimes this kills the man. there is a reason ooda looping comes out of military training and its basically the condom mentality, you train it with the assumption that there are times you have to decide to act.

>>40606810
omni-dexterity is mans grace.
>>40606708
pls, mines yes, its relevant to your original thread

>>40606708
Only insofar as we define "consciousness" as a generic function, and where its degree of abstractness is its degree of consciousness.

In short, I can't give you a yes or no until you define your terms. I'm trying to infer the meaning of these things, and I'm explicitly rejecting the framework within which you want me to answer the question.

>>40606823
for the purpose of the question lets use a loose gestalt of 'the individuals inner selves' thusly
>in this shared "objectivity' is the individuals inner selves the prime material from which all other systems arise? - mines still yes in a logos - shared gestalt memetic inertia sorta way

>>40606813

>Can I have uuuuuh ....

Such indecision can be embarassing, or worse. Orientation seems more and more to be the most crucial step in this. Funny, still in a way you could simply cut it out of the loop and still have a functional unit of some sorts, leaving things to nothing but automation.

>>40606823
also could you elaborate on what you mean with - consciousness is the prime material from which all other systems arise only insofar as consciousness is a generic function defined by its own abstractness?

>>40606854
People try to argue that "consciousness" drives all matter in the universe, but then they reduce the meaning of consciousness to some mere automaton (which is a general way of describing a function) that has basic properties like an inner state, some inner processing, and thus an input/output cycle. You lose all real essence of "consciousness" when you define it this way. You could say a rock is conscious, but can you have a conversation with it? Can this rock start a rock society where it develops ideas? No. So, you then settle on the notion that consciousness appears in humans as self-awareness, but this self-awareness is only really meaningful if it accompanies intelligence, which really limits the amount of consciousness that you observe in the universe. Thus, most of the universe is not conscious and matter and the structure of the universe does not derive from consciousness.

>>40608575

>Thus, most of the universe is not conscious and matter and the structure of the universe does not derive from consciousness.

Know. It derives from complexity. Consciousness is merely a particular subset of this. Yet we cannot leave it out ... except as engineers, and any good engineer knows an intelligently designed safety margin.