There is not one Buddhist meditation that can be done by a puthujanna. Buddhist meditation can only be done on the basis of Right View.

So if you want to practice Buddhist meditation, first learn mundane ("intellectual") Right View comprehensively, and develop it for the purpose of becoming a Stream Enterer.
It does not go any other way. "Mindfulness of breathing" without being a first Sotapanna is not a Buddhist idea.
5 precepts is the minimum for mundane Right View, 8 are necessary if you want to go beyond it (or perhaps 5 + celibacy in the Buddhist sense).

Refrain from speaking in public with such a tone. You're not even the tapeworm inside a tapeworm. Go back to studying your empty impotent buddhist principles concepts.

>>40737976
You can keep all that, no thank you.
>>40737936 (OP) (cont.)
Picrel is the section of the Anapannasati Sutta (https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi) indicating for whom it is intended.

Just don't consider it as "the method" or "an essential method" towards Stream Entry. It's not one of the Four Factors of Stream Entry. It's not a replacement for any or for all of them.
It's a practice to expand upon supramundane Right View.
You can simply not worry about it until you have supramundane Right View.

>>40737936 (OP)
too many complicated words, can't follow
... Anasotpajanna Puthupanaasati "becoming a stream enterer" "Right View"....

hhmph. buddhists playing smart again.

>>40738186
Having supramundane Right View = being a Sotapanna /.Stream Enterer = being a member of the Noble Sangha = being a Buddhist.
There's a few ways to put it because, well, multiple thousands of pages worth of writings covering the same topics repeatedly from multiple angles.

>>40738218
ah now I get what your post was about.
oh well I reject the buddhist world view so I guess but also isn't mindfulness of breathing actual an idea from hinduism? like how do they call it? pranayama?

Bonus question: What does celibacy in the buddhist sense mean?

>>40738282
I see the Buddhist world view as a very thorough step up for many beings so like, it's one of the best options. That's also why I'm serious about at least getting Right View in Buddhist terms.
>breath
Hindus have pramayama yes, Buddhists have Anapanasati but it's not a "breath exercise", see the Anapanasati Sutta https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi
>celibacy
Not deliberately ejaculating, not deliberately engaging in sexual fantasy and action.
Then the Brahmaviharas which are all the prerequisites to experiencing Nibbana and equal to good will for all beings.

>>40737936 (OP)
Sounds like you're trying to tell people they're wasting their time trying to do high level techniques they wont understand.
Your framing/tone is way too sharp though bro, how do you intend to reach anyone like that?

>>40738282
Here's a video on Anapanasati:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ3cgh-mV8E
>>40738522
Thanks, I'm working on it.
I'm "tiring" of the Pratyekabuddhayāna, I think I can do something better.

God I hate it when people use these gibberish buddhist terms

>oh anon you just haven't reached anapanasatidhanachayrapanavati tikkamasala realization, guess you're not a real gunachanarajamanavati roganjosh

go fuck yourself

>>40738503
>I see the Buddhist world view as a very thorough step up for many beings so like, it's one of the best options.
I see, I disagree.or maybe it's just not for me
>That's also why I'm serious about at least getting Right View in Buddhist terms.
understandable
what school is this even? Theravada, Mahayana, or Vajrayan?
>see the Anapanasati Sutta https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi
way to much to read, as far as I know buddhists it should be just paying attention to your breath and that's it
>celibacy explanation
ah yes I see.

>>40738592
Oh it's a whole chunk of work and not the only thing I'm doing with my life, dw.

Theravda or related Early Buddhist Texts (EBT) schools which are pretty new and mostly composed of ordained Theravda monks.

Yeah that's why I sent that video, it should be clear incl. context in much fewer words.

Yes, like semi-optional for a beginner, it's not that hard... (har har)

Just trust in Amitabha...you don't need to do something to go to the Pure Land...

>>40738683
>Oh it's a whole chunk of work and not the only thing I'm doing with my life, dw.
dw either I was not implying you are wrong or below me for following a certain path, that you consider the correct path for you.
I was just saying: imo things are different

>Theravda
i see

>Yeah that's why I sent that video, it should be clear incl. context in much fewer words.
yeah bro, it's like 16 minute long x_X
I will just assume it's about paying attention to ones breath
> it's not that hard... (har har)
I am not sure if this joke was even allowed according to buddhist celibacy standards
I am gonna tell your abbot, prepare for demotion

>>40738568
My advice would be this.
Always give them a choice our of concern for their safety.
Their response will tell you if they're ready, and it will also inform you of their morality.
Then you can teach them properly, and I use the way of Socrates whenever possible.

>>40738737
>16 minute long
>long
bru
best I can do is 8 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R-yAvG1uQ8&t=172
or 4, starting from 2:52.
tldr it's on the level of the memory faculty.
>he didn't notice the beginning of the joke
yeah it's allowed when I'm kind and don't overdo it

>>40738737
You're missing the forest again trying to listen to the sound of trees that aren't falling while you're not around.

>>40738869
NTA
can you probe my morality and readiness and report back?

>>40738881
Doesn't seem to make sense.
Not forget but not attending.
Either I pay attention or I don't no thing in between. I call bullshit on this one.
>>40738894
what? No forest here

>>40739017
My point exactly.

>>40737936 (OP)
Cool. I don't want to do Buddhist™ meditation. I just meditate.

>>40739001
You morality and readiness for what? Sharing the light with others?
You answered that yourself when you made this thread, thats why I gave you advice.

>>40737936 (OP)
>"Mindfulness of breathing" without being a first Sotapanna is not a Buddhist idea.
At least you Buddhist proselytizers can finally admit you arent just telling people how to meditate, but are here spreading your dogma and religion.

>>40739171
I didn't make the thread. I am another guy. just a curious wanderer to investigate whats going on in this thrread

>You morality and readiness for what?
well idk, for whatever you are testing for i guess?
>Sharing the light with others?
what? so you think there is a light to share and that I somehow got it?

>>40739152
Well, actually your point was that i am listening to the sound of trees that are not falling if I am not around.
But i am around. and I am not listening to trees because i am not in a forest.
So my point was your statement was wrong on so many levels, so i asked you to clarify "what?"

>>40737936 (OP)
> Buddhist meditation can only be done on the basis of Right View.
nah, you could try to mimic it and still have results
> 5 precepts is the minimum...
I agree

>>40739226
No I think the other guy is ready, and I have no idea what you would want me to test you for.
I'm saying you're incoherent using an elaborate incoherent metaphor to illustrate my point, because thats how it feels to me when you speak.

>>40739327
>No I think the other guy is ready,
ok...? ready for what?
> I have no idea what you would want me to test you for.
You said:
"Always give them a choice our of concern for their safety.
Their response will tell you if they're ready, and it will also inform you of their morality."
So I thought you would be able to give me a choice to determine if i am "ready" and about my morality.
So I really don't understand why you are trying to play dumb now, weird.
>I'm saying you're incoherent using an elaborate incoherent metaphor to illustrate my point,
that's weird, why would anyone do that with a metaphor like that and not just say that i am not making any sense.
the other guy seem to understand me very well... so i am wondering if you are trying to gaslight me a little rn?
>because thats how it feels to me when you speak.
well, maybe it's a you problem
imagine being the only one who doesn't get it and then make up such an elaborate incoherent metaphor to "tell" the other guy that they are supposedly being coherent, weird mate, idk

>>40739451
Why don't you ask?
I used the metaphor to give you a specific perspective.
Reject it if you will, it doesn't make a difference to me.

Oh boy a hot take ripped straight from hillside hermitage.

>>40738869
Thanks, you articulated pretty clearly "where the shoe pinches" for me. I used to think very much in terms of, "how will my audience interpret me", but it got me to a dead-end of specializing my speech.
And I'm not interested in "teaching" as such, only in demonstrating what's possible, cleaning up the paths I depend on, and sharing *some* of my life experience. Including having a normal lifestyle, speaking plainly and directly.

Basically, I have to express myself more gently, *without* compromising and without (less than gentle) self-censure.

>>40738522
Kinda. My point is to point people thinking they're doing a "Buddhist fundamental" that, no, the absolute fundamentals are the Four Factors of Stream Entry.
And that, maybe, if they aren't Stream Enterers yet, then maybe they're not doing the real anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) either (this is actually certain).
>how do you intend to reach anyone like that?
Reach anyone then worry about reaching more people. Ppl who just need the basic info and don't get all bent out of shape bc of "tone" are a priority, but yes, gentle speech is good.

>>40742606
lol oh shit no don't expose me like thaaat
hope I ripped it wholesomely-enough

>>40742626
I'm a Mahayana practitioner personally, but I'm very familiar with Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero, hes pretty controversial in Theravada circles which I came from. A lot of his work is pretty useful, some of it is batshit though and definitely coloring outside the lines with personal interpretations.

The differences between Shri-Lankan Theravada, Thai, Burmese, etc are all pretty interesting, you can see the differences in the way the monks are educated/ordained. I was personally inclined to the Burmese / Thai Forest teachings.

>>40737936 (OP)
>puthujanna
What's that?

>>40742641
It's useful that he gets into "how to interpret sutttas" to begin with, I'm not finding much other Ajahns doing so. At least not like, for 10+ minutes in a row concerning more than a paragraph or so. I feel like there are only few people doing in-depth sutta study, and fewer publicize about how they do it.
I don't feel a need to warn against anything in particular he does, e.g. where he's grumpy-sounding it's obvious enough that he is.

I'm mostly interested at what European ordained monks make of Theravada at this time, they have more in common with eachother in terms of genetics / bodily composition and language than with any particular Asian school.
Also I just don't have enough interest in Asian languages to learn those schools in their own language, with the materials they put out that severely limits how much there is to learn about how they interpret.

>>40742664
Layperson in the sense of, mundane. Not the exceptional non-monk "Arya" (member of Noble / Buddhist Sangha).

>>40742671
>Layperson in the sense of, mundane.
Are they unable to learn it if they are willing? Could Buddhism be impossible for some people?

>>40742683
They're able, possible. Some people have more cleaning left to do than others.
Some people have no interest / inclination, or no access to study materials or to capable-enough guides. Then it can take a long time.

>>40742692
Makes sense. I'm really interested in Buddhism. What does Buddhism say about masturbation? Did the Buddha ever address it?

>>40742705
First worry about 5 precepts, making them consistent and giving them some depth, this is necessary as a basis for sense restraint and to piece together mundane Right View. With mundane Right View you can navigate the suttas & Buddhist jargon.
https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/13861/did-the-buddha-have-special-instructions-to-deal-with-masturbation

To be clear it's not forbidden for laypeople and not part of the 5 precepts. (It definitely is part of the 8 precepts and of the rules for monks.)
I suggest you only worry about it when you already have some momentum in your learning, it'll begin to become obvious that there must be some way to regulate it better & that there's learning to do & where to read about it / how to contemplate it effectively by that time.

Oh and 5 precepts is a combination of practical ethical conduct, but also sutta study. The sutta study (esp. reviewing the parts that do you well or "read obvious") is how you make them a coherent whole and this helps a ton with keeping momentum, even if you only read half a page each day.

>>40742747
Thank you Anon, I guess I'm interested in semen retention and due to the fact that many religions support it I was wondering if Buddha ever addressed it or if there are any official text books where they talk about semen retention, do you think Buddha supported it or did he think masturbating is neutral in your opinion? What would he think about semen retention?

>>40742788
The Buddha didn't include it in the precepts for laypeople so I presume he thought it pointless for laypeople who were not actively working on gaining Stream Entry.
Do check the link I sent you.

>>40742796
I will check it out tomorrow morning, seems interesting though but I want to read it properly when I have more time but I will, thank you Anon

Basically learn 5 precepts and don't do it where it'd get you in trouble with the 5 precepts first (e.g. don't kill a bug that gets in the way of a wank).
The reason to begin with 5 precepts is that there's a natural order of learning and to skip steps leads to deficits (and inaccurate intellectualizations) you'd then have to clean up later, it's much slower.

>>40742809
Here's a very thorough "getting started" for reading the suttas:
https://suttacentral.net/start?lang=en

>>40737936 (OP)
>Anapannasati is not intended for puthujannas
lmao get the fuck out of here you ignoramus

>>40738522
>Sounds like you're trying to tell people they're wasting their time trying to do high level techniques they wont understand
this is him saying the most basic fundamental exercise cant be done by a normal person

>>40738590
they do get pedantic

>>40742905
Sense restraint is much more basic.

>>40738592
>just paying attention to your breath and that's it
refining the breath is important

>>40742944
anapanasati and restraining the senses go hand in hand

>>40743074
Only for a Stream Enterer or beyond they do.

>>40743085
I'll give you an opportunity to further qualify that statement
but on its face, its patently absurd
restraining the senses and refining the breath are literally the first things any beginner starting his meditative journey should undertake
these are tactics to employ
sure the eventual results are not immediately grasped or accomplished, this takes some time
but the intention to restrain the senses remains the same whether one has accomplished the conditioning to truly have them fully restrained or not

>>40737936 (OP)
OP this gives me some hope for my extremely intellectual approach to the Mahayana, all I do is Grok the Sutras all day. I start to meditate more recently

>>40743234
Anapanasati != refining the breath.
It does not include any engagement with or in the activity that is breathing.
>any beginner starting his meditative journey should undertake
That is a very universalist statement, not "Middle Way".
The Buddha never approved of "meditation" in general, only of particular kinds of meditation given particular conditions. The Buddha never prescribed the adoption of *any* meditation technique for laypeople, not once.

>>40743295
>Anapanasati != refining the breath.
>It does not include any engagement with or in the activity that is breathing
lol, lmao even
this view is why there are a lot of people that put in a lot of time and make next to 0 progress
>The Buddha never approved of "meditation" in general, only of particular kinds of meditation given particular conditions. The Buddha never prescribed the adoption of *any* meditation technique for laypeople, not once.
cool story, bro
shit like this is what turns people off to buddhism
you analyze writings more than you cultivate
you worry about process of ritual over refinement
and the buddha's words for monks cant ever apply to lay cultivators
its just a sad box you've placed yourself in

>>40743349
Nice ad-hominems. Anyway...

>>40742671
Yeah, I can't even point to anything specific, I just remember more senior monks from other Theravada traditions wholeheartedly disagreeing with how he tends to interpret certain things and how he teaches people to interpret the Suttas.

Some traditions don't even pay that much attention to the suttas to begin with now. The Thai Forest tradition is basically a counter culture movement because monastics we're spending the entirety of their time studying and coming up with infinite ways to interpret every word of the Buddha in the Suttas and not actually meditating. Same thing is happening now in Burma, a de-emphasizing of Sutta study in favor of more practice. Of course the monastics still know the Suttas like the back of their hands, they have to in order to ordain, but studying the Suttas isn't part of their day-to-day anymore.

>>40743368
>Anapanasati != refining the breath.
>It does not include any engagement with or in the activity that is breathing
nothing more really needs to be said about this terrible shitty view, its laughable and naive
although I should probably say ignorant because you think you know better

>>40743402
I steer clear of disagreements between other people. It costs a lot for little and uncertain return to pick a side.
>>40743423
>still zero proof, just scoffing

>>40743462
much of the advancement I made was precisely because I spent a lot of time refining the breath to a very high degree
you're just trying to tell me things that are diametrically opposed to my personal experience and you have given no rationale for it outside of "Well the buddha didnt say much of this"
the buddha said to verify everything with your own acumen
I've honestly never heard anyone state something so ignorant before as you should not practice any breath refinement
that's just absolutely preposterous and tells me you really have no cultivation under your belt worth mention

>>40743476
I'm not engaging you any further.

>>40743504
>says dumb shit
>complains about dumb shit being called dumb
>gets told reasons why its dumb
>I'm not talking to you anymore.jpg
fact remains that the view that says one should not refine his breath is a false view that limits what the practitioner can accomplish
good day my limited sir

>>40743504
Annapanda is not intended for pajamas, full stop.

>>40742905
No, its him saying, if you can't even see the depth of your own breathing, iys probably better for you to develop some depth rather than just waste your time breathing on the surface where you wont notice much.

>>40743349
How does all that ego taste?
Do you enjoy being full of shit like that?
I'm no buddhist, but you're mocking people over things you don't understand, and its pretty silly.

>>40743689
he doesnt appear to be saying that at all
>Anapanasati != refining the breath.
>It does not include any engagement with or in the activity that is breathing
pretty cut and dry
and ignorant

>>40743709
sorry bub, I understand anapanasati better than pretty much anyone a normal person will ever encounter
everyone I have ever interacted with that is qualified has praised my approach
>he Buddha never prescribed the adoption of *any* meditation technique for laypeople, not once.
this doesnt really make one shit of a difference, my words are all true and correct
I've been teaching this for at least 18 years and the only people that have ever balked at it have been tards

>>40743569
>OP Suggests a structured pedagogy rather than jumping into deep water right away
>you, just breathe water guys, you're all fish anyway
Thats what you sound like when you argue. Its really not helping anyone, and OP already admitted his opening post doesnt like up with his actual intent.
You've got a lot further to go than OP does to even get to where he is.

>>40743727
>There is not one Buddhist meditation that can be done by a puthujanna
this is just a false statement and is spreading ignorance
>You've got a lot further to go than OP does to even get to where he is.
as if you are qualified to say such a thing

>>40743726
Oh boy, an appeal to authority?
You're never getting through the keyhole with that mountain of an ego.

>>40743735
>correcting anything means you have ego
this is just more false bullshit made up by cultivationlets that have an attachment to their own views and bristle at being told a view they have an attachment to is false

>>40743738
Now I see why the Taoists just call you southern barbarians.
Insisting you know everything while knowing nothing.

>>40743735
Lol Theravada seems really great you guys
>Did the Buddha tell laypeople they can become Buddhas?
>I must follow the Moral law before I begin to meditate
>Wanton use of Sanskrit words
>1 person on earth becomes a stream enterer every 50 years? But if you don't do it, your practice is flawed.
>HOW DO I BECOME A STREAM-ENTERER?
>Sophistic philosophical argument about what constitutes "breath"

No wonder Theravada is only for monks
HNNNNGGGG

I'd literally rather hit myself in the face with the Lankavatara Sutra repeatedly, I'd learn more, and I'd smell better too

>>40743754
I most certainly do not know everything
but I damned well do know anapanasati
the fruits dont even emerge without breath refinement
its that simple
I had a lady once tell me that breathwork is useless, she spent 20 years on it and made pretty much no progress
she got mad when I told her it was because there was obviously something wrong with her method or approach
this is the same tier of bullshit I'm getting here

>>40743738
Bro if the guy doesn't accept your teaching just leave it. It's doubtful you have anything real but you learned something basic thru the skillful means of the Buddha. When you teach it's not about conveying Universal Truth, at least at first. What can this guy learn from you?

>>40743765
This is sort of a troll post but I think breath work is just for beginners. It might be true because I at first wanted to tell OP if he can find emptiness he doesn't need to focus on the breath, that's his experience anyway, it fucked him up

>>40743765
I got to the fruits without breath refinement.
I got to the fruits without buddhism at all.
>>40743770
I did learn something though I learned how annoying it is when someone acts like he is.

>>40743800
Not to say there's no such thing as advanced breath work, but in Zen (won't say who) they teach focus on the breath so you get closer to emptiness & don't focus on your thoughts. It's not like an actual meditation method, but maybe akavishadanti or whatever the fuck is a real advanced technique. Then I'd wonder why you expect a guy whom you're calling an idiot to recognize the practitioner of an advanced technique

>>40743807
How can one follow the breath through the vessel when one can't even conceptualize the vessel.
That was my takeaway from OP in a nutshell.

>>40743832
I don't really understand you, because you shouldn't conceptualize anything. Words are just pointers. If you're thinking "about" the breath you're still thinking. The goal of breath work is to change your thought into breath and your breath into thought

>>40743844
Doesn't surprise me.
Most people who get to where I am don't decide to stick around, they leave to go keep God company, like the Buddha did.

>>40743865
So is your way superior to that of the Buddha? I still don't believe in you. Do you think you've achieved something?

>>40743935
superior? no.
I just wanted to keep helping people here, because no one needs to leave.
I don't require your belief, I operate on proof just like the buddha, but I do love hearing other peoples opinions and conceptualizations of the schematics I'm building, and so does the Lord.
Even the troll arguing with me earlier served a purpose, I took the negative emotions he foisted at me and turned them into fire.

>>40743800
>This is sort of a troll post but I think breath work is just for beginners.
I've had friends go and study with high level people
most have told me they wished they completed what I deem to be a requisite level of breathwork/anapanasati before having undergone these more advanced trainings
for when you're there doing the advanced stuff it is no longer time to focus on the breath
but here's the thing
when you take anapanasati to its logical conclusions, it absolutely has the ability to produce the spiritual light that arises with a brilliant spark
I know this from experience, not because anyone told me
I never expected that to begin with, but there it was borne of rote training and high levels of breath refinement
these people that say not to refine the breath dont seem to realize that neurological potentials are a thing
they are raised by sense experience
they carry their own habit energy
it is these neurological potentials that form the basis for the arising of random thoughts, you really only discover this at a decently high level of refinement
but with enough training it is indeed possible to prevent the arising of random thoughts, to detect the precursors and be able to act on them before the thought manages to emerge
for if a thought emerges while the light is manifest, the light is gone, for thinking steals the base potential necessary for its arising
these other morons that want to shit talk what I'm saying simply have no depth of understanding of what I'm talking about, it would appear
they have read what they've read and that's about it
anyone can see the truths I have written for themselves by following my words, but it requires diligent practice

>>40743968
>I took the negative emotions he foisted at me
and you still dont realize this part is entirely in your head
there was no emotions in what I said to you, just straight talk
fact of the matter is, if you disagree with olfactoryanon about breathwork, you're probably gonna catch a little bit for your insolence

>>40743969
No one even said
>don't refine the breath
You're the one trying to change reality itself, thereby severing yourself from it, in order to make your fantasy true so that you can feel superior because you have proofs of what you know.
You need to learn how to talk to people where they are instead of talking down to them otherwise you're never going to teach much.
We don't need to respect you as an authority in order for you to respect us as people.

>>40743979
I mean look at this, now he's saying the Runes don't real, while writing in the Runes!!!
It's really quite something

>>40743984
some asshat literally said anapanasati had nothing to do with breath refinement, read the thread my guy

>>40743984
>so that you can feel superior
and this is more of asshats being steamed about being corrected, projecting their feelings right into their responses
I do this to teach correctly, not to feel superior
people's projections say plenty about themselves

>>40744096
Now you're just straight making shit up to justify your overblown stance.

>>40743969
what is your definition of anapanasati?

>>40744111
What you say might be correct from your own limited instanced perspective.
That doesn't mean it's true.
Things that are true are true from all perspectives at once.
Wanna know something true?
Gravity is true.
2+2=4 is true.
Your opinion is not truth, it's bullshit.

>>40744096
Nothing can be gained from reading this thread or being in it.
I looked at the OP and it’s just a stupid as fuck thread.
I am only replying to you because your post is the last one and it’s not totally stupid.
No one who cares about Buddhism would waste any time here.

>>40737976
Actually this post is pretty good too.
As always first post best post.

bump

Did you now that anapanasati is not only about observing the breath but also about about refining it?

Can I meditate if I have a perforated septum? There's this whistle whenever I breathe and it makes meditating extremely difficult for me

>>40744114
>Anapanasati != refining the breath
>>40743423

>>40746351
Is it exhausting beating up that straw man?

>>40744122
anapanasati is the practice whereby the breath and awareness are refined
there's simply many references to be had about refining various aspects to a high degree,
assuming the default breathing process would be the most optimal is unscientific.
there's just many failings in the way things are described when you google something, you're not necessarily getting the best descriptions out there
>The dhyāna sutras, based on Sarvastivada practices and translated into Chinese by An Shigao, also recommends counting the breath, and forms the basis of Zen practices. In the dhyana sutras his is organized into a teaching called "the six aspects" or "the six means" in which, according to Florin Deleanu:
>The practice starts with "counting" (ganana), which consists in counting breathing from one to ten. When this is accomplished without any counting failure (dosha), the practitioner advances to the second step, i.e., "pursuing" (anugama), which means intently following the inhalation as it enters the body and moves from the throat, through the heart, the navel, the kidneys, the thighs to the toes and then the reverse movement of the exhalation until it leaves the body. Next comes "concentration" (sthapana) which denotes focusing one's attention on some part of the body from the tip of the nose to the big toe. In the fourth step, called" observation" (upalaksana), the practitioner discerns that the air breathed in and out as well as form (rupa),
and
>followers of the Burmese Vipassana movement instead recommend focusing on the abdomen's movement during the act of breathing
points at things I'm describing in more detail
getting into the gut with breathing means dont sniff at the air, it stimulates the olfactory nerve
and by extension the senses may not be brought under sufficient quiescence unless each of the cranial nerves receives its proper quiescence

>>40744122
Dr Yang from YMAA states in his embryonic breathing book that one should "regulate until real regulation is achieved, that is, regulation taking place without the act of regulating"
again this is just pointing at things I am describing in greater detail
what's the issue with this being described in greater detail that considers modern medical sources?
part of the reason I achieved what I did was because I approached it from a neurological angle

>>40744126
thread's about anapanasati not buddhism, bro

>>40745675
this is precisely a reason to understand the teachings of olfactoryanon
when you breathe from the gut properly and dont use your nose or sinuses to move the air into the system, all of that turbulence in your nose disappears
try the bath exercise if you have access to one, if not a distant second is earplugs
draw a warm bath and lay back in it so that the water is against your eardrums
notice how much you sniff at the air as you breathe
now figure out how to make all that turbulence disappear
this is done by drawing air with the diaphragm as if there was a little guy in there pulling a large sail attached to a rope,
the perineum and front of abdomen expand in a relaxed manner
to truly time all the structures together, use the perineum to key the timing of the other structures off of
roll the inhales and exhales seamlessly together so that there is not a large air pressure change in the system when going from one to the other.
this is one of those tricky things that helps create an ongoing quiescence where your olfactory nerves are not stimulated by breathing, the vagus is not stimulated because your gut motion is smooth, the optic is not stimulated because you're not focusing sight on anything, and so forth
master this and the greatest stillness is sure to have its conditions arranged so as to arise

>>40745675
and the perineum and front of abdomen support the exhale, it is not bad to overexaggerate this motion in the beginning, since what's more important overall is the ongoing flow of air and the neurological potentials created by it
people may balk at controlling the breath in such a way, but it should be recognized that this is refinement training and time spent on this yields tremendous fruits when it is mastered. the technique is not to be used forever, just a particular method for a particular time, like the one who was bitching at me liked to point out.

>>40744185
>>>40743241 (You)
>I try, but when sitting up I always feel discomfort/tension from the body and then go lie down. Been into some deep states while meditating lying down, but there are those moments when I catch myself shifting and then instinctively jolt out of it abruptly. Can't tell if that's feeling the brink of flaling asleep or a light awakening, feels like both kinda.
ah, you need daoyins to strengthen your spine a bit
when sitting, try to stack the vertebrae upon each other as if you were stacking some flat rocks on top of each other
a particular qualitative chi arises later on when some accomplishment is made, like your spine just stands straight up energetically
but this only comes after being physically capable of sitting for long periods of time, this is why chikung, yoga, daoyin exercises...and plenty of just making yourself sit up straight and do the work
build the habit energy and it can be overcome

>>40744243
>>>40742459 (You)
>What ways cultivate yang and what ways cultivate yin? Should the 2 be balanced?
here's the thing, yang practices dont cultivate yin, and sleep merely restores it and doesnt build it
stillness meditation is what builds yin
when yin is sufficiently built, yang just emerges right out of it
e.g. the great stillness gives rise to the brilliant spark of yang
but it only emerges in that way if your focus is at the seat of your awareness in the midbrain, it will have a different form if your focus is on your lower dantien, for example
I built the light first in my gut, which expanded from a golf ball to peach to grapefruit size before growing to the whole of the gut, then the torso, the edges of the body, then radiating out beyond the body, eventually beyond perception, wherein a size distortion happened feeling like 3 inches tall sitting in the gut before the samahdi subsided from the disturbance and I again perceived the real size of my body.
there are countless methods to build yang
but there's kinda at root just one stillness, its all just a matter of how good is your stillness
for when strong yin is built, the yang practices undertaken will attain much more lofty heights

>>40746535
>yang practices dont cultivate yin
yang practices dont PRODUCE yin

>>40746426
ok, that's cool and all, but that isn't what says in the anapanasati sutta.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Dhp/Ch01.html
>If he recites many teachings, but
>–heedless man–
>doesn’t do what they say,
>like a cowherd counting the cattle of others,
>he has no share in the contemplative life.
>If he recites next to nothing
>but follows the Dhamma
>in line with the Dhamma;
>abandoning passion,
>aversion, delusion;
>alert,
>his mind well released,
>not clinging
>either here or hereafter:
>he has his share in the contemplative life.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti1.html
>Abandon one quality, monks, and I guarantee you non-return. Which one quality? Abandon greed as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti2.html
>Abandon one quality, monks, and I guarantee you non-return. Which one quality? Abandon aversion as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti3.html
>Abandon one quality, monks, and I guarantee you non-return. Which one quality? Abandon delusion as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti4.html
>Abandon anger as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti5.html
>Abandon contempt as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti6.html
>Abandon conceit as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti7.html
>Monks, one who has not fully known & fully understood the All, whose mind has not been cleansed of passion for it, has not abandoned it, is incapable of putting an end to stress. But one who has fully known & fully understood the All, whose mind has been cleansed of passion for it and has abandoned it, is capable of putting an end to stress.

>>40746498
Daoyin is a wonderful practice to have, I had the fortune to learn it in a real Quanzhen school as part of DMQ training.
I'd also recommend starting with Ba Duan Jin if you're unfamiliar with Qigong and want to try Daoyin.

>>40746677
>ok, that's cool and all, but that isn't what says in the anapanasati sutta.
typical purist garbage,
>if that exact form of the words isnt it then its not it and its not right
but you bitch and moan about the finger, concentrating on that, missing the moon and all its glory
dr yang's quote is absolutely implied
but you're too worried about words and language since you are a purist that needs everything to be so pure his practice is limited because of it
sad, many cases
again its shit like this that turns people off to practicing buddhism because of such insufferable views such as you hold

>>40746963
great suggestion

>>40746431
Bro, it’d a Buddhist breathing technique
This is a Buddhist thread.
A shit one.
They are all shit though.
Let go.
Detach.

>>40748827
go back to plebbit if you're going to act like that
the lot of you, really, ffs

>>40748971
Act like what.
I am removing myself from all attachments
I am practicing the middle way
I am not being autistic over core breathing techniques.
This is a Buddhist thread.
It is about a Buddhist breathing technique that is very simple.
The whole thread is a disgrace.
Just fucking breathe
Stop making it so hard.
Let go.

>>40748666
oh, you think because it involves breathing it needs to be what you think it is? that's naive at best.

>>40749104
its always telling the level of intelligence I'm dealing with, or lack thereof, when I smoke a mf debating and they just sit there going nope I'm right, you're just full of ego

Anyway, hope that the OP text cleared some things up for the lay-followers of Buddhism on this board.

>>40749469
it seems weird to me that you enter a buddhist thread about a buddhist approach to cultivation, and talk about daoism and embryonic breathing, things that are not buddhist per se, or mentioned in the suttas. what you are doing is calling any stretch yoga. as I said, at best is naive, and misleading.

>>40749539
no, you're just complaining primarily about your extremely shallow understanding of having read the anapanasati sutta
like many buddhists, you're so overly concerned with the words that the words cant mean anything except what they explicitly say
the notion that one needs to be a sottapana to even do anapanasati is absolutely retarded and puts the cart before the horse
it is effectively saying that "you need to have all the accomplishments of this practice before you can sit down and do the practice that produces those accomplishments"
you're either too retarded to understand that this is what you're saying, or you're so absolutely retarded you seriously believe the statement
instead of participating in a fruitful thread about cultivation, you have made this all about the words put down by the translators who translated the anapanasati sutta
you are doing nothing but shitting up this thread with your idiotic bullshit

Threadly reminder that this is a Buddhist thread, not a "general" "cultivation" thread.

>>40749802
threadly reminder that the title posits an absurdity
and you get assmad about being taught anapanasati proper

I became a Shingon Buddhist recently.
Here are key points I liked from reading a part of Hakeda's "Kukai: Major Works"
The message of Kukai is wonderful:
- This whole world is a text expressing the supreme truth, not a holy book, not scripture, and we just have to open our eyes
- Since everyone is equally made of the six elements, that create and are created, we are all equal to the Buddhas, it is only a matter of realizing it
- Kukai stresses that the esoteric method is the quickest way to realize enlightenment, but that all teachings are valid and should not be abandonned, even if exoteric

>>40749865
That’s nice.
I look forward to you becoming a Lutheran next week when you get bored.

>>40750552
Here's your (you)
I was already a buddhist for years, and nothing will convince me out of it, I just accepted that school in particular recently.
Anyways, I started doing zaike gongyo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLknUUhc6o
It's really nice but I wish the practice was longer (although I cut out much of the english), even appending a chapter of the Lotus Sutra doesn't satisfy my needs. (https://files.catbox.moe/3m4i50.pdf here's the shingon reading of the chapter I trasncribed for chanting).
My old practice was once in the morning and once in the evening (both different gongyos) but I'll probably just repeat the same shingon gongyo once in the morning and once in the evening.
For mantras I'll probably grind the mantra of light and see.
I started yesterday so still much to see before I can report back anything unique.
If someone else practices vajrayana it'll be cool to hear from you.

>>40746426
>regulate until real regulation is achieved, that is, regulation taking place without the act of regulating

How would this work? What does it mean? It means that if someone regulates the breath a lot then after some time his mind begins regulating the breath on its own?

Is it like this or not? Have you ever experienced what this guy said here? If yes then how it looked like?

Thank you for all your posts.

bump

>>40749802
>>40737936 (OP)
Buddha didn't invent anapanasati.

>>40752337
I only mean the anapanasati described in the Pali canon and the thread is specifically about Buddhist order of learning / didactics.
Hope that clarifies the context of my OP text, in case you did read more than the title.

>>40752337
Also do you have a source for that? Wikipedia attributes it to Buddhism entirely.
Do you perhaps mean something similar involving the breath that went by another name, before the Buddhists wrote down their approach and named it anapanasati?

>>40752546
Buddha didn't invent that.
>>40752608
Buddha didn't invent any meditative technique.

>>40752617
Where'd you get "invent" from? I didn't use that word.

>>40751198
this captures the essence of needing to practice
this works for everything, not just meditation
the body needs to be well trained in order to perform something at a high level
muscle memory is a thing, and by spending a period training the refinement of breath, the habit energy of the refinements get programmed into the muscle memory
so if you train enough, you will breathe in this meditative way even while sleeping
when the muscle memory is very well trained, then you dont need to pay attention to it as much
you pretty much begin a session with sitting and relaxing, then adjust any necessary breath movements, and you're more or less straight on to the cultivation of awareness
eventually it is just a subtle movement in your gut and you barely have to pay attention to it
when there's no turbulence in the airways it is as quiet as a breath hold, but sustainable, without impending hypoxia
thus you begin to cultivate these nice long chains of uninterrupted awareness, and by the time you get here there's some energy built up from having established the habit in a good net energy positive way
cultivate good yin and it sets the conditions for yang to arise from it from this energy perspective
in a nutshell, the actions are relegated more to the subconscious, which seems to operate more efficiently when the mind isnt paying attention to individual motions
everything I am typing, things that have taken place in my own cultivation

>>40752546
you never even attempted to clarify your wack statement of one needs to be a sottapana in order to practice anapanasati
what would even make you say this?

>>40753044
Right View consists of seeing wholesome as wholesome, and unwholesome as unwholesome. There are multiple ways to include the breath in one's practice, some wholesome, some not.
The very minimum bar, to have partially consistent success with Buddhist mindfulness is to have a rational level of Right Mindfulness, this builds upon rational Right View. But for the technique to not backfire "randomly", a surpamundane (e.g. more than intellectual / rational; rational AND bodily integrated correctly) Right View is the minimum.

The bar of supramundane Right View is on the level of being able to discern citta nimita (indications of the state of one's mind), practicing sense restraint on this level, practicing the precepts on this level, and interpreting the suttas on this level.
This then leads to an intuitive and practical understanding of what is wholesome for one's citta and results in an initial impression (a "glimpse") of nibbanadhamma, which is the point at which one has become a Stream Enterer and has an embodied sense of direction towards the end-goal of the Eightfold Path and entered upon it.

From thereon anapanasati is a qualified means to expand one's Right Mindfulness of the citta to a more accute, grounded but dynamic reference point, and for a more gradual practice this is the breath. It is not at all about changing something about the breath but about including it in one's watchfulness and mindfulness of one's citta.
(Although the path is said to be possible to complete with about 24 hours of anapanasati practice at that point, it can take up to 7 years of this practice so it is relatively very gradual and very safe. Relative to maranasati.)

Without first discerning citta nimita it's either a lower level of mindfulness, or it's done subconsciously (by "luck"), or it's not (B.) mindfulness at all for example a mostly unrelated yogic technique.
The "mindfulness" in anapanasati means it expands upon the general mindfulness.

>>40753044
Basically because it accelerates progress towards one's present aim, but before Stream Entry one does not know with certainty to which degree one's aim is accurate. The path isn't directly visible before Stream Entry, the end goal of it has not been seen either.

>>40753256
is there a herb which one can consume which greatly aids in this mindful watchfulness of anapanasati? Like tulsi or cannabis or brahmi or something.

>>40755120
Never heard or read of such a thing, there's a sutta that recommends herbal porridge generally though.

>>40743726
You're not an Arahant Daniel, not even close. You're some guy writing opinionated books with edgy covers and shitposting on /x/, you're a Mara not an Arahant.

>>40753256
nice essay on fundamentalism, but fact of the matter is one does indeed "get there" much, much more quickly having spent a period of time seriously on breath refinement
"you're not truly there until you get there"...what insight
>Without first discerning citta nimita
without first making some meditative accomplishment, these words are relatively meaningless to the beginner...yes some measure of meditative accomplishment is the discernment of these
having undertaken rigorous breath training, the beginner will simply reach those understandings far more quickly than if he hadn't seriously undertaken rigorous breath training
I dont know why you dont understand these things or how they very well compliment pretty much everything you want to say is proper, but that's your problem to deal with and you shouldnt shit up the information flow of beginners by telling them you need to just sit and cultivate until everything is good and you cant help that process along or spend a chunk of practice time working on that aspect.
you're not doing anyone any favors by misleading them in this way.

>>40755417
never wrote a book much less one with an edgy cover, and my only shitposting gets made at ignorant statements like you shouldnt work on refining your breath
never claimed to be an arhat or bodhisattva either
thanks for your attempt at a shit post

>>40750682
>posing larper pretends to be specific school of Buddhism using YouTube and translated books
>>40752337
It’s 100% Buddhist. “Invent” is a weird word for sitting down beneath a tree and breathing but whatever.
>>40755120
>I need drugs to breathe
>>40743726
Lmao, this whole post.
Probably the worst thread on /x/

>>40755975
>sitting down beneath a tree and breathing
this tripe leaves the whole sati part out
if you dont get the sati part right, the spiritual light will never arrive. ever.

>>40755975
>Probably the worst thread on /x/
I did a related Google search and this thread showed up on page 1

>>40755240
well the buddha (or should we say, siddhartha) supposedly ate cannabis seeds (and nothing else?) as he went deeper into inner light.

>there's a sutta that recommends herbal porridge
yes would like to have that sutra

>>40756136
It's very easy to find that sutta, do you have a source from the suttas on the cannabis stuff? Because it sounds really uh, dubious.

>>40756248
nope, I don't have, considering the place where he meditated - nepal - cannabis seeds seem a good nutrition source for a forest dwelling person no?
Maybe the powers the be don't want people to know easy access meal for enlightenment

>>40756291
Orrr it's just a rumor, and not Buddhadhamma...

>>40756307
or, I was trying to uncover the utter need to have a simple diet (with more or less empty belly) when trying to do mindful watchfulness of breath.
Fanciful modern foods (cooked, refined, processed) really makes one restless or puts you to sleep.

>>40756333
>or, I was trying to uncover the utter need to have a simple diet (with more or less empty belly) when trying to do mindful watchfulness of breath.
its simply a fact that your guts move more easily when they're not full of food and shit

>>40755975
>posing larper pretends to be specific school of Buddhism using YouTube and translated book
I have a teacher.

>>40757258