Thread 280355635

>shonen manga starts out with a disadvantaged MC that has to work hard to overcome his shortcomings
>actually he's the chosen one and he's going to get all his Jesus superpowers for FREE
I hate this shit so much.

>>280355635 (OP)
Then stop reading shonen manga.

It's really hard to come up with good ideas when you have to put out a new chapter every week for 500 weeks.

>>280355635 (OP)
>I hate this shit so much
Then kill yourself.

>disadvantaged MC
luffy started off stronger than all of his opponents and it took almost 200 chapters for a main villain to defeat him
deku got the strongest superpower in the world bar absolutely NONE in about 3 chapters.
I don't remember anything about naruto

>>280355683
You're mentally ill

>>280355702
>I don't remember anything about naruto
Literally the reincarnation of the son of God.

>>280355702
naruto was a prodigy who learned a legendary jutsu in a day but he's dumb so that makes it up for it.

>>280355635 (OP)
MC starts out as the best, no I'm not going to pretend anyone ever has a chance to beat him.

>>280355635 (OP)
>shonen manga starts out with a disadvantaged MC that has to work hard to overcome his shortcomings
>he's still disadvantaged and still working hard to overcome his shortcomings
You don't even need to start reading other genres or even other magazines. Just dip a little bit deeper than the absolute surface-level stuff.

>>280356039
>mc starts out just as strong as everyone else
>he never gets stronger

>>280355635 (OP)
>Read genre for children
>Find out its for children
Shounen tards be like

>fr fr no cap, this 6 years and under children comic be fire

>>280356156
>this 6 years and under children comic be fire
This but unironically.

>>280355635 (OP)
>MC is an advantaged Mary Sue from the get-go

>>280355635 (OP)
>MC is a loser, accomplishes nothing and dies like a little bitch

>>280355635 (OP)
>Naruto
>"starts out with a disadvantage and has to work hard to overcome his shortcomings"
No he didn't. In the very first chapter we're shown that the Clone jutsu is his worst jutsu, he can't even do the regular version.
Then, a magic scroll falls into his lap by pure luck, and he reads it and within a few hours is able to teach himself how to use the MASS SHADOW CLONE JUTSU to create HUNDREDS of clones and effortlessly defeat a fully grown, professional ninja
Why?
Did he work hard?
No, he got the cheat codes and then his Magic 9-Tails Fox Chakra did the rest of the work for him

Everybody who thinks Naruto's story was about "an underdog who works hard" must have been reading a different story. He's constantly carried by the fox, or by his uzumaki heritage and chakra pool, or by lucking into getting the perfect mentor at the perfect time who unfucks his problems

Did Naruto stick with Ebisu's "boring but necessary" training to control his chakra?
No, Jiraiya showed up and said "ah I see, the fox is sealed in you the wrong way, let me just undo that"
and then Naruto could instantly walk on water

I think people are just confused because of Rock Lee's arc intersecting with the Neji fight
LEE was the one with a hangup about "hard work vs natural genius"
Naruto's beef with Neji was that he beat the shit out of Hinata, and refused to admit that "people can change the fate they're born into"

Completely different things

>>280355635 (OP)
Deku was the chosen one since episode 1 though. Like actually chosen and given special powers, it's kind of a big plot point in the series

>>280355702
>luffy started off stronger than all of his opponents and it took almost 200 chapters for a main villain to defeat him
This
In fact Luffy was so strong that he had to be 'incapacitated' for most of two different arcs (Arlong Park and Skypeia) or they would have ended a lot faster

As for me I never gave a fuck about any shonen mc and cared about the supporting cast better.

>>280356534
He has never come close to defeating his toughest opponent, bad art. It's just shit.

>>280356481
In the first drafts, he was supposed to become a hero by making his own tech gadgets and super suits, which would have been infinitely better considering how much cooler the suit at the end of the manga is.

>>280355702
>luffy started off stronger than all of his opponents
Luffy became strong by making a shitty power his. Or at least that's the story before the retcon.

>>280356768
would've just been budget batman
gadget heroes are shit

Naruto was never disadvantaged. Even without the reincarnation Jesus shit, we knew he had the super strong demon that was built up as a world ending threat sealed inside him from Chapter 1 and his only issue was that he didn't know how to make effective use of his Chakra at first.
He was always going to be stronger than everyone else once he got proper training.

>>280355635 (OP)
That's why shounen is generally meant for younger audiences, and I'm neither shitting or defending it for that.

>>280356862
>batman
that's just budget iron man

>>280355635 (OP)
>shonen manga starts with a hero who's roughly about as equipped as he needs to be to overcome the challenges ahead
>after he defeats his final boss, he gets replaced by a new protagonist so that the powerlevels don't need to escalate beyond control
I love this shit so much.

>>280356933
Iron Man is carried by the personality and charm of Tony Stark, which Deku does not have
You know full well that a "deku makes tech to fight villains" premise would have just ended up being
>villain appears
>oh no, what's his superpower and how does it work?
>I have to build the perfect counter to this kind of power
>OK I built it and now I can beat him
with Hori's writing, it would've very quickly become a series of boring asspulls where Deku just so happens to have the right gadget for every situation, because he's "smart" or whatever

>>280355635 (OP)
>disadvantaged MC that has to work hard to overcome his shortcomings
You haven't read One Piece at all, Luffy (and Zoro) are both overpowered monsters in the East Blue

>>280355635 (OP)
You've never read One Piece. Luffy had no disadvantages. He was immune to blunt force trauma and bullets, had freakishly superhuman strength and stomped his enemies throughout the early parts of the manga. He was special from the beginning and destined to greatness and this was all confirmed before he even reached the fucking Grand Line

>>280356944
That's because you are gay you fucking faggot.

>>280356826
>a shitty power
There is not a single point where the gum gum fruit was ever portrayed as a shitty power.

>>280356951
Not that anon, but Deku with gadgets/gizmos would've only worked if Hori made the most out of his beta personality to tell a story about dealing with insecurities/societal expectations of superheroes vs self-improvement for the sake of protecting others.

>>280356995
Not myself, but what?

>>280355635 (OP)
>MC starts out weak
>gets weaker over time
anime for this feel?

>>280356995
I think we know by now that Hori just isn't capable of writing that kind of story

>>280357018
Battle harem where the girls do all the fighting for him.

>>280357018
Technically Ichigo, but only sometimes, since we find out way later that his spiritual pressure was constantly fluctuating between piss-weak and stronger than captains, when Ulquiorra analyzes him
gets completely depowered in the fullbring arc and has to claw his way back

plus he loses constantly in the final arc

>>280357046
Don't talk about gay things please.

>>280356977
Yeah, this is how I can tell people who say Luffy started off with a bad/weak power have never actually read One Piece.
Paramecia have always been widely varied and even now there are a lot of them that can be considered way worse than Gum Gum.
Zoan just let you turn into an animal which was neat but still weren't as versatile as being made of rubber, so you could argue they were "weaker".
Gum Gum only seemed weak in comparison to Logia, and that's only because Logia were handsdown THE strongest type of fruit back then.

>>280357082
I've seen people shoot rubber tires, the rubber loses.

>>280357018
Thorfinn from Vinland Saga got so weak he failed at everything

>>280357114
that's real life
in the one piece universe, Luffy is immune to bullets
deal with it

Shounen can’t do “farm boy called to adventure”. When it tries like with One Piece, it always devolves into super special heritage / bloodline etc. Always. Gon’s dad can’t just be a regular low-level Hunter, he has to be a fucking Zodiac. Ichigo can’t just be a teenager with the right instincts and talents, he’s got to be some sort of Quincy-Hollow unicorn snowflake. “Special” doesn’t even begin to describe Naruto. Shounen just doesn’t do these characters any other way, even when it tries to.

>>280357118
He didn't get physically weaker, he's obviously stronger as a grown man than he was as a kid. And when he does fight, he's very skilled.
He just chooses not to fight anymore.

>>280357151
I don't read it I just like to hate it.

>>280357155
>When it tries like with One Piece
But it never tried that with One Piece, you're making that up.

>>280355635 (OP)
Luffy was a peerless chad having to fight old farts 20 years older than him. Its like if Sasuke was just Narutos subordinate

>>280357155
>farm boy called to adventure
His special power is a normal punch, he never gets stronger.

No, Deku had to have powers in order to get into UA as a Hero trainee. If he was a gadget hero with no quirk he wouldn’t be let in, he’d be a support type student at best and that’s narratively impossible (for shounen anyway).

Also you KNOW that Hori was angling for a Dad For One development in the earlier part of the manga. It was so predictable everyone thought it was just a matter of time. Even though Hori did end up avoiding the cliche development of a shounen MC’s ultra special bloodline, it’s still a fact that he was gifted the most powerful quirk in HISTORY, and by far the most important one in the world. Even though Hori fucked up the writing pretty hard, it’s still the standard shounen direction.

This is honestly an American complaint. They hate the "chosen one" trope and destiny so intensely because it goes against their fundamental believe in freedom and potential. It's a massive cope.
>I can do anything if I put my mind to it
>The only reason I'm not doing amazing right now is that I haven't felt like it
>My life will start eventually when I feel up to it
That's why they gravitate towards someone like Rock Lee. It's why so many Americans believe that the most important part of Naruto's 15 year run was the part where Rock Lee was relevant for a few weeks and Naruto stood up to Neji. Plague of Gripes did a whole video hyperfocusing on this part of the story like it was EVERYTHING. Naruto's message is about how damaging it is to hold grudges and the pain of being alone, it is not "I can manifest my destiny if I just try hard enough!"

Rock Lee shows up, doesn't get to finish his fight against Sasuke (cope is that he COULD have won), jobs in the Forest of Death, gets his move stolen by Sasuke, gets crippled by Gaara (cope is that he really pushed Gaara), stands around in the bleachers, gets life-threatening surgery, jobs in his final meaningful fight (cope is that Kimimaro died of his disease before he could deal the killing blow), and beats up his own clone off-screen. Even when he beats someone he loses. He's only ever comic relief after. He gets knocked out by Sakura, and he watches Guy do his version of the Gaara fight. He is completely usurped by Guy as a character.

>>280355702
Naruto has an ancient beast inside of him paying rent by giving him free power boosts

Unironically, is DBZ the only shonen manga to avoid the "chosen one" trope? Sure, Goku being a Saiyan gave him an advantage over regular people, but he was easily the weakest of his race and outclassed by humans for most of his childhood. He just trained and got stronger after every loss.

>>280355635 (OP)
This doesn't apply to Deku. There's literally nothing special about him except for the fact that he received One For All from All Might, but that happens in the very beginning of the series so you can't act like it wasn't part of the premise.

>>280356944
>after he defeats his final boss, he gets replaced by a new protagonist so that the powerlevels don't need to escalate beyond control
>powerlevels escalate anyway

>>280355635 (OP)
What your stupid youtube essays failed to tell you is that none of these series ever implied their protagonist were underdogs and showcased all their advantages early on be it Deku recieving the strongest quirk, Naruto having the strongest tailed beast, or Luffy easily defeating everyone until around 200 chapters deep into the manga.

>>280357532
you are a homosexual

>>280355635 (OP)
>shonen manga starts out with a disadvantaged MC that works hard to inherit the dojo of his master
>gets transferred to a seinen magazine and then gets CRUSHED by the feudal social system

>>280357470
he is literally sun wukong what in the name of god are you talking about

>>280357470
>outclassed by humans for most of his childhood
Child goku outclassed 99.99% of all living humans, don't kid yourself.

>>280357624
Reminder, Bulma tried to murder him with a gun before knowing he was super special.

>>280355635 (OP)
Doesn't the first ep of Naruto establish that he has the fox sealed in him? Even if it doesn't, the fact he was able to use the shadow clone jutsu to great effect made it obvious he has absolute fucktons of chakra, even if he's not that good at using it effectively.

If Luffy's fruit was never rubber and always the human human fruit why was he immune to lightning?

>>280357754
>Doesn't the first ep of Naruto establish that he has the fox sealed in him?
yeah
in the first episode we already know he has the fox, only idiots didn't realize the 4th hokage was clearly his dad, and he gets the Super Secret Scroll where he somehow teaches himself the Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu (an S-rank forbidden jutsu) in a few hours, despite not being able to even make a single normal clone earlier in the day

then he makes 1000 clones without any difficulty and beats the shit out of an adult professional Chunin-rank ninja

>>280357800
It's not just the Human Human fruit. It's the MYTHICAL Human Human fruit modeled after a god who has rubber powers

>>280357800
because Nika's body naturally had the properties of rubber
I know, it's stupid

>>280357470
He's a big fish in a small pond from the start. His grandpa was a legendary martial artist who was a student of a legendary master and strongest person in the world. He immediately meets this master and gets an offer to be his student. He's already stronger than nearly everyone he meets, and this isn't even counting that he was retconned to be an alien from a race of warriors who easily outclass every single person on his planet. Even in later interviews, Toriyama says he could become a Super Saiyan because his environment gave him not-midichlorians.

Even when he's written to be the underdog, he's still leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else. He's the underdog of the Saiyan arc but nearly all his friends were murdered by the mid-boss before he easily crippled him in response. When you take a look at battle powers, it becomes even more absurd.

From newborn to age 12, his battle power went from 1-10.
From age 12 to 24, his battle power went from 10-416.
After a year of training in the afterlife, it went from 416-8000, with the ability to multiply it up to 32000.
About a month later, it went from 8000 without Kaioken to 150 million as a Super Saiyan, which had no risks apart from not being totally optimal. The rate at which his strength balloons is insane. He goes from being unable to defeat fucking Cui in November to styling on the emperor of the universe by Christmas. No other human combatant would be able to ever catch up to that, but aliens pull it off consistently.

>>280357336
>Americans believe that the most important part of Naruto's 15 year run was the part where Rock Lee was relevant for a few weeks and Naruto stood up to Neji.

It was a while ago but I've seen people come to making fun of Lee for having his character peaking during the Bush administration and then further making fun of the fact that people were genuinely hyping him up for the one fight anyone remembers from him

>Plague of Gripes

Best to ignore depressed Internet Writers who do anything else but write. He openly admitted he didn't watch the show anyway

>>280355635 (OP)
You're a Narutard that thinks Rock Lee is the protagonist of every anime. You need to get over your mental illness. Hard Work vs Talent is the worst theme in anime. Alright? Repeat that to yourself. Hard Work vs Talent is the worst theme in anime.

>>280357850
leetards don't even remember that the whole thing got wrapped up in a few chapters when Might Guy said
>but you ARE a genius
>of hard work
and Lee got over it

>>280356156
funnily enough, fairy tail is one of the few popular battle shonen that didn't have natsu as a chosen one or anything like that

he still isn't the strongest of his guild

>>280357155
>farm boy called to adventure
>he's the son of the chosen one

>>280357920
also Kakashi during the Gaara fight thinks to himself, when Lee opens the gates:
>Not just one gate...but 4? That's not something anyone can achieve just by hard work alone. Guy, the boy really is a genius, isn't he?
He literally thinks this to himself and they just forgot

>>280357941
in the original 3 movies, darth vader is just an ex-jedi who became the empire's enforcer
he's just a guy

the prequels making anakin the chosen one was a mistake

>>280357842
>He openly admitted he didn't watch the show anyway
he made a joke at the start of the video but it's clear he watched the thing since be goes over multiple arcs point by point in detail, down to shit like the rinnegan abilities

>>280357975
Things you can get off of a wiki I'm sure

>>280355635 (OP)
But Deku isn't one of those

>mangaka thinks superpowers and speshul magic are fun
>adds them to manga
>D:

>>280357805
The hard part about multi shadow clone is managing chakra, not the technique itself.

>>280357926
I mean he was raised by a dragon

>>280357987
how do you prove that you watched a show then? if going scene by scene and fight by fight (he did it for the chunnin exam) isn't enough?
and i'm not saying the guy is right, but saying he didn't watch the show just seems like cope from people who didn't even watch his video

>>280355635 (OP)
Is there even a shonen manga where you can legitimately say the MC has no special bloodline, no special birth thing, no randomly being trained by the greatest master ever, no destiny thing?

>>280358026
creating shadow clones is MORE difficult than the regular "bunshin" clone (which has no mass and is just an illusion that disappears)
Shadow Clones have solid mass, it's harder than a regular clone

and just a few hours earlier, naruto was incapalbe of making a regular clone
Despite having been taught it, and practicing it, for several years

Just reading a scroll shouldn't allow him to instantly master a much more difficult version of a jutsu that he couldn't perform hours prior

>>280358046
if you're going to make a video about what the ENTIRE THEME of Naruto is, as a work of fiction
yeah
you should probably have read the whole thing

>>280358056
jojo, specifically Jonathan?

>>280358026
and Naruto had shit chakra management at the time

>>280358056
Gintoki

>>280358075
you are not reading what i'm writing are you?

>>280358061
He's ADHD coded, ever see an ADHD kid actually hyper-fixate on something he wants and get shit done?

>>280357183
You do realize that many of the most powerful characters in the series are much older than 37, right. Garp is almost 80 and still God.

>>280358078
shut up fag

>>280358117
Whatever, I guess the scroll just explained it in a way he could finally understand

>>280358099
Look, if you take a single scene, completely misunderstand it and then pretend this is the theme of the whole series when it very clearly isn't, it sounds and awful lot like you haven't actually read/watched it.
No, the theme of Naruto is not "hard working underdog beating natural genius". Never was, never will be.

>>280358133
I like how in One Piece, you basically just keep getting taller and more jacked and handsome until you hit 60, then you stay jacked and handsome but your hair just turns white

you only really start to look old when you hit 80 apparently
and even then you're still jacked

Just watch sports anime

ok but

>MC is trying to prove himself
>finds out he's the chosen one
>has a crisis because his victory was handed to him, so he's just a fucking magic nepo baby
>formerly friendly rivals turn on him because his existence made their lives pointless
>gets over the nepo baby crisis only to realize that even if the final victory is guaranteed, he's now personally responsible for every single person the big bad kills along the way
>fellow glory-seeker is now plotting to betray him, because if he can't live on in fame as the hero, the only way to be remembered is to live on in infamy as the traitor

>>280358170
>then you stay jacked and handsome but your hair just turns white

Some old people are that way in reality like Harrison Ford; it helps a lot to never be fat since that minimizes changes to the face.

>>280358174
No one does that.

>>280358046
it's shocking but a bunch of /a/ posters do this
they talk about the complaint of the week that they heard from other posters and turns out they didn't watch it lol

>>280358056
world trigger

>>280357926
Who's the strongest?

>>280358056
Zetsuen no Tempest. The MCs didn't even join the final fight.

>>280355635 (OP)
>>shonen manga starts out with a disadvantaged MC that has to work hard to overcome his shortcomings
In a way this makes them even more of a snowflake then just having the best powers

>>280358480
Whoever has the most power of friendship.

>>280356826
how does the nika retcon change the fact luffy had to work hard to make the power his own?

>>280357082
he only faces one fruit user until logue town. having a fruit in east blue automatically bumps you several tiers

>>280357825
kuririn have a move that could kill frieza
dbz>>>>>>all shounen combined

>>280358507
I like a protagonist that isn't weak but isn't exactly strong yet either, but has the potential to be

Bakugo should have been the MC of My Hero Academy and it's not even a debate, you know I'm right
>simple but versatile power that has lots of room to grow and potential for cool fights
>deku is an obvious perfect sidekick - as a gadget hero like people want - he's the kid Bakugo bullied but learns to respect for having a different kind of skillset/strength that also makes him useful
>he's hot-headed and brash at first, needs to learn how to work with others and mature emotionally

should've been Bakugo
even Hori knows this

>>280358541
>because he has friends!
gets me every time

>>280356156
it's funny to see people give away their very limited manchild tastes when they complain about shit like "why do they forgive the villain?" or "why does the protagonist get a sudden power boost?"
i like shonen still, but it is grating to see retards who think the genre's tropes are bad because they refuse to read anything else

>>280356977
It was in the flashbacks with Ace and Sabo, but by the actual start of the story he'd been training with the power for several years

>>280358618
honestly even if you don't train at all, it gives you complete immunity to blunt trauma, bullets, and electricity

that alone makes it worth it even if you never train a day in your life, honestly

>>280355635 (OP)
>superpowers for FREE
not everyone

>>280357818
chopper's fruit gives him human intellect in all forms, it's not too weird the nika fruit would make you always rubbery

>>280355683
kill yourself stupid faggot

>>280358569
OFA was the more interesting power in the early stages of the story, and it worked as well as it did because Deku had been Quirkless his entire life and had no innate understanding of how to effectively utilize the power. He has a year-long training montage at the beginning where he goes from scrawny wimp to just good enough to stand at the starting line. The rest of the story takes place over 13 or 14 months. But any good writer will tell you that it's not what a power can do that makes it interesting, it's the limitations of the power and how to overcome them. It starts as each action costing a limb. Jumping destroys both legs, a punch destroys one arm, and another punch to soften his landing would destroy that arm. This cripples him, so he's forced to come up with relegating it to smaller sections like individual fingers, it's about resource management. What can he sacrifice going forward to stay in the game? The sports festival is a great arc where optimally, he would have to compete in three events, with the third event being a three round tournament. Each section wears down his resources until he reaches a point he can't overcome with brute strength alone. Then the next arc he finally realizes he can apply it to his whole body, and it's not just on/off, it's a dial. This is wear his powers become boring, but it's immediately made interesting by giving him an opponent that requires him to cripple himself at the beginning of the invasion, putting him out of commission when he could help others.

It's harder to remember later usage because it's just superstrength, except in big climax fights like the second movie and the Overhaul fight. That's when Horikoshi started adding in more powers because there wasn't much that made OFA interesting anymore.

>>280358677
It gives no inherent protection against sharp weapons, but yeah other than becoming an anchor it doesn't have any major downsides.
It's still his own training and personality that made him strong, the inherited will + Nika bits are only additions and not the main reason for his power.

>dies twice
>still wins
Fucking based

You should read World Trigger. The MC is inherently weak and steadily improves by working on the abilities he does have. However, the thing that causes his fundamental weakness is never changed. He is technically a "chosen one" with special privileges (connections to important people), but he only got that position through circumstance. There is little to no plot armor; every one of his victories is hard-fought. Another great aspect of this manga is that the fights are much more tactical than the typical "who can punch harder" fights in shonen. So if you're also tired of braindead fights where the outcome is obvious, then I can't recommend World Trigger enough.

>>280358997
yeah my only point is that even if you were some random scrub pirate who ate the Gum-Gum, you should be pretty happy even with just the defensive buffs

If I was a marine, or a pirate, I would love to know that bullets and even cannon balls can't hurt me
that's fucking awesome

>>280357926
>didn't have natsu as a chosen one or anything like that
He is the adopted son of a dragon god. That hardly makes him an average joe

>>280359101
>read narouslop I swear its not as bad as the shueishaslop its imitating

>>280358056
does Tanjiro count?
his bloodline was basically yoriichi biggest fanboys that assimiled a bootleg version of his techniques as a dance. and even by the end of the manga, despite having acquired all the techniques , he is still far behind Sanemi, GODjima and Yoriichi himself.
Even the sun immunity is due to an external factor, simply because his family lived and interacted for centuries with the blue spider lily not knowing it was the key for sun resistance

The problem with luffy was never being super special, but retconning his whole fruits and kit into "ACTUALLY IT WAS NEVER THE FUNNY GUMMY FRUIT, IT WAS ACTUALLY THE SUPER DUPER LEGENDARY GOD GOD MODEL BUGS BUNNY FRUIT OF THE LEGENDS!".
And the worst part was most of the reveal happening from a random guy literally called WHO WHO!
at this point him just going crazy with a simple Awekening similar to Katakuri and going full "GEAR 5th:BOUNCING CASTLE" was far better than the god god retcon

>>280357470
Are dragon ball fags stupid on purpose or what?

>>280357470
this.
all z fighters already surpassed god btw
dbz>>>>>>>all shonen combined btw

>>280356156
>because he has friends!

As I grow older I realize that Shonen is actually the realest depiction of success in life.

>has to come from some special secret bloodline
>said bloodline has deep connections to other strong families that help the MC
>MC get served most thing on a silver platter
>MC is born with the secret superpower, nepotism and money
>The author is always trying to hide this fact an say it was all through the power of talent, hard work and friendship
>the mc is every billionaire “self made”

>>280355650
/thread

>>280359190
>obsessed anti-narou poster is a newfag who doesn't even know world trigger
huh

>>280359481
trigger is a bad studio therefore that must be a bad manga

When and why did everyone suddenly become so anti chosen one? This kind of thing is one of the most basic story telling elements there is. And NO I don't accept that as a reason because it's just petty contrarianism trying to sound "grown up". Having a destiny doesn't undermine someone's efforts to live up to it and it's no more an automatic card for victory than simply being the main character. Watching characters have to live up to their expected burden is frankly as engaging if not actually more so than watching some whiny pud complain about life being unfair. Is this all some kind of self insert thing?

>>280359806
It's a coping mechanism for people who have nothing going on in their lives. They want to believe they too could accomplish anything but they just don't feel like doing it yet, so the idea of someone just being special and that someone not being them is offensive and demoralizing

>>280359845
>but they just don't feel like doing it yet
No that's not it. It's people who know they can't even if they try that don't like this stuff.

>>280359806
Lee vs Gaara did it.

>>280359845
It just seems petty. The idea that people who have a destiny doesn't mean they don't have hardship. Most chosen ones get the absolute piss beaten out of them. Hell when you go far back enough in history most destinies don't end up leading to happy endings either.

>>280359806
it works when is something well estabilished since the very beginning or part of a bigger narration, like what Rowling did with Harry Potter or how Gotoge subverted it with Yoriichi.
Its sucks when it is a last minute twist/asspulls, especially if retroactively ruins the mistery or the fun around the powers and the role of the protagonist.
Luffy is a huge miss for me because the whole Nikka shit was unecessary , and now we are forced to accept every important fruit must be Zoans too (AKA THE MOST BORING FRUITS OF OP!)

>>280359806
because dragon ball exists

>>280359980
also, to add on the Nikka fiasco:
it was bad for other reasons
- Now most of the misteryies are directly correlated to that very stupid fruit all along, so every single answer will be MHU IMU or MHU NIKKA, saddly in a very Kaguya way
- it opens a whole can of worms where Oda can pull any fruit retcon out from his ass whenver he needs. He already did it with Bonnie and her Nikafied fruit. What is stopping him now from retconning Brook, Robin or Chopper's fruits?!.
Was the jacket jacket guy actually the jacket fruit all along? or he was The GOD GOD MODEL STICKY FINGER ALL ALONG?
Was buggy's fruit the GOD GOD SUKUNA all along too?

>>280359980
>Its sucks when it is a last minute twist/asspulls, especially if retroactively ruins the mistery or the fun around the powers and the role of the protagonist.

See I'll concede to that point. I do understand why Naruto going on about how hard work is important and then revealing he's host to the nine tails and the less said about Ichigo's constant power ups the better but it still seems like most people seem to take contention with the concept rather than the execution. Though Flame of Recca was very upfront about his heritage and I rarely see any one complain about that. Though there's also not enough Recca talk for my liking in general. But I'll acquiesce that it's probably more just sloppy internet talk for general poor writing.

>>280359806
Rock Lee fags butthurt Lee doesn't murder Gaara. They've memed themselves into thinking a character having some talent invalidates all their struggles.

>>280355635 (OP)
fucking retard, naruto is not a choosen one and he lost the power he got after the fight again
>>280355741
>>280355744
hes not and he didn't got anything of it

>>280355702
There also buzz around him from the first few chapters where even his mayor talks about fate, then so too does smoker, crocus and kureha. Kid wasn't an underdog until smoker showed up and styled on him with a better fruit. Luffy was waaay the fuck stronger than EB should be.

>>280360176
> naruto is not a choosen one and he lost the power he got after the fight again
>gets strongest beeing sealed inside him
>is the son of the strongest hokage (later revealed)
>is the reincarnation of hashira and the son of the 6path sage
Ehhhhh

>>280356977
Not only this but in the first arcs until Arlong Park having ANY devil fruit's power was considered so OP that people were screaming in awe every time Luffy stretched or repelled a bullet.
One Piece was never the story of a bunch of underdogs getting stronger - Zoro was feared by basically everyone up to Arlong Park and Sanji could kick a sea monster into submission since the first days they got him on the crew. These three at least were super powerful from the beginning and only got "power ups" when they arrived in water 7 and started facing the rokushiki. Before that the only significan power up is Zoro learning how to cut steel against Mr.1, otherwise Luffy happily punched his way up to skypiea with basically no trainig - that's how strong he was.
People got their brain fried by Naruto and Bleach storytelling and now compare it to One Piece, which was never about training to grow stronger, and always about willpower. Battles are won by whoever has the strongest will: they are basically delinquent brawls on a larger scale, and haki only tried to turn this into a system.

>>280360224
>basically no training
(what I meant is no extra training, of course he trained before starting his voyage, but we never saw him train after that until we got to the time skip)

>>280360224
Yeah this. Everyone was always considered to be strong, the crew members are also always people knowing they are strong. I mean they are like 6-7 people beating crews with 100s or even thousands. They were considered underdogs in terms of how no one knew about them but they were still very strong. I mean zoro himself defeated 100 bounty hunters in whiskey peak.

>>280357926
Also Natsu wasn't an underdog or anything at the start of the manga, he was essentially one of the strongest amongst the second tier in the strongest guild in the continent from ch 1. Lucy was the underdog noob.

Is there a single character in fiction that did more damage to discussion than Rock Lee?

>>280360071
Recca seems all but forgotten but I think in Recca's case it helps that the story frontloads its chosen one premise very blatantly than all those other examples where it's treated more as plot twists.

>>280359192
I think so. The world just has random super humans, even without breathing or marks in the picture, and he's one. OH MY DADS DANCE is more on the 'coincidence' side of things. I would say, there's a fate element to it in that without tangerine, the corps fails and dies off, muzan wins (in a scenario where he never joins or dies early).

>>280357990
It took this long for anyone to point out.
>>280356768
>>280356951
>>280356995
>>280357024
He literally pointed out that the reason he didn't do it was because it would have gotten repetitive.
> but Deku with gadgets/gizmos would've only worked if Hori made the most out of his beta personality to tell a story about dealing with insecurities/societal expectations of superheroes vs self-improvement for the sake of protecting others.
That's already in the story you retard

>>280360502
>Hori doesn't want Deku to just have a toolbox for every situation
>Gives him a toolbox for every situation
O MY 7 QUIRKS

>>280360502
>it would have gotten repetitive.
Oh fuck off. It takes a good writer to NOT make any premise repetitive and that's just him admitting that it's beyond his capabilities. Also
>/co/ reaction pic
Neck yourself.

>>280355635 (OP)
All three are chosen ones, by other people (to fill a role, have the broken power/all the worlds peril on their shoulders), and maybe fate. Typical for main character heroes no?

Reality seems to bend far more for Luffy (his luck to not die from random mishap is maximum and incredibly contrived) (there might be lineage magic at play, VoaT). Naruto is chosen by his parents, well forced into it, but also there's lineage magic at play (technically, he could also have died along the way and the cycle just continues with the next batch of re-incarnations), making him a double chosen one? Deku is chosen by AM because AM is a fucking moron, it's not like there wasn't another candidate (or more) who had the same heroic qualities of Deku.

>>280360545
>Gives him a toolbox for every situation
The quirks themselves aren't even versatile or handle in every situation and he doesn't even use three of them until the final battle

>>280360550
>It takes a good writer to NOT make any premise repetitive and that's just him admitting that it's beyond his capabilities
Nope that's just him being smart, you've never written anything in your life if your only answer is "just write better bro" even the best series ever at their core can suffer from repetition or an author being written into a corner.

>D-d-d-do I fit in yet?

Please off yourself

>>280360637
>The quirks themselves aren't even versatile or handle in every situation
yeah Hori leaned on Black Whip and Danger Sense because he always just wanted to do Spiderman

>>280360603
Luffy being a pawn of fate is actually themtically relevant to One Piece, he thinks he's the most free person while being constantly railroaded by fate to where he needs to be, while his thematic opposite Blackbeard believes he is the one chosen by fate but has to work to get where he wants to be
It's like this ironic juxtaposition

>>280360502
It worked for batman.

>>280360637
NTA, but the powers aren't versatile...its just, when he starts using them. Many problems he has can be solved by 'punching it really hard and fast' and he essentially has the best of punching hard and fast.

It feels like Hori wouldn't have written 'punch hard' being so successful earlier in the manga....

>>280360667
Lmao

>>280360637
>y-you write something better then
What a pathetic nothingburger. You come here regurgitating his pisspoor excuse and just go "nuh uh him smart" like some retarded sheep who's never read anything outside of your shounenslop because you can't rationalize any alternatives outside of what the author already spoonfed you.
>D-d-d-do I fit in yet?
Boo-fucking-hoo, this isn't your hugbox.

>>280360653
I don't think he used float that much either

>>280360655
>Luffy being a pawn of fate is actually themtically relevant to One Piece
C'mon anon, I like One Piece but it's really not that deep.

The 6th One Piece Film, Baron Omatsuri and the Secret Island, strives to analyze and question one of the staples of shonen writing: the "because I have friends" motivation that many MCs utilize to propel themselves forward. Characters like Luffy or Goku are presented to us as a sort of wild animal, simple-minded brutes with uncanny instincts to compensate their apparent stupidity. Secondary characters inevitably gravitate towards their magnetic ability to just perceive the best course of action, and their bigger-than-life goals are all but stated to be an inevitability. Under the umbrella of such a personality, side characters are assured and able to thrive at the cost of becoming less and less relevant, which shonen tells us, it's the strongest friendship possible.
What Baron Omatsuri asks is, what if those instincts were wrong? What if the shonen logic wasn't enough? What if there were consequences to the reckless, carefree idealism of shonen protagonists? What's left when brute-forcing your way through your goal causes a loss that you cannot ever undo? Was your cause so important? Were your friends that important?
After losing his entire crew because of a reckless wager to prove himself, Luffy is shown at his weakest. He's barely saved from certain death by a little character called Brief, a former captain of a similarly erradicated pirate crew called the Moustache Pirates. A short, middle aged man who now lives underground in an elaborate bunker, hiding from the assassin of his crew. It's him who gives Luffy a spark of hope regarding his friends, and in the final confrontation with the Baron (another mirror to Luffy's grief, and the one who was incapable of letting go of his bonds) Luffy gives Brief the official Moustache salute, thus counting himself the first of his renewed crew. This detail is usually ignored by the film's analists and fans alike, but it's unprecedented by characters usually defined by boundless individuality and magnetism such as him. 1/2

>>280360709
>You come here regurgitating his pisspoor excuse and just go "nuh uh him smart" like some retarded sheep who's never read anything outside of your shounenslop because you can't rationalize any alternatives outside of what the author already spoonfed you.
The problem is that your ideas such ass anon and the only thing I can think of is "thank god Hori didn't do what you're suggesting because it reeks pf something from ao3 or fanfiction.net"

>>280358056
Goku

>>280360712
yeah, not much reason to until the final "I have to stay in the air constantly" battle, combined with Black Whip

I also think most readers don't even really understand what Fa-Jin does

>>280355635 (OP)

posts like these are proof OP appeals exclusively to low IQ brownskins (with virtue signalling from leftist whites)

as the man with best taste in anime, I recognized Roofie was not only the chosen one but also born with overpowered superpowers like no other in the early 2000s as a kid, when this slop aired on TV, literally before the gay cat captain fight

>>280360745
This nigga can't be serious.
Bare minimum he's had the best masters on earth, God, best in the universe, afterlife, and...an angel.

We can debate all day on saiyan blood, or bardock, or his wish, but bare minimum Goku's teachers have been the greatest at every junction.

>>280355635 (OP)
This is why I like HxH
At no point does anyone pretend the MC isn't a prodigy.
Also Luffy doesn't start out weak I think he is well done until the chosen one shit ruins everything for no reason. Like, it was completely pointless too. Prophecy shit is so gay.

>>280356826
Since way back in the East Blue characters have made comments about how they think it's Luffy's destiny to succeed. The destiny seed has been there for over 20 years. Luffy was never the "loser who works hard to win" meme. I don't know where people got that idea.

The guy who arguably is seen training and working the most is Zoro and he also started strong. He was a young boy once but never an "underdog" like early Naruto.

>>280360741
What ideas? I didn't suggest anything. I'm calling your out for acting butthurt and telling others to "write something better then" as your argument and then post some shitty /co/ gif like it's some cool mic drop (it's not). You're literally mad because people don't like what you like.
>ao3
>fanfiction.net
Holy shit, you have unironic brainrot.

>>280360738
In an interview to the director, Mamoru Hosoda, this subject is brought with some interesting insights to his way of thinking. Here's some critical tidbits:

>H: That’s really how it is, you know. When I went to Ghibli to make Howl, they were very busy with Sen to Chihiro. So they had no staff to spare to prepare Howl. Because of that, I had to gather the staff myself. For the designs, for the sakuga… Because I was the director, I had no choice but to do it myself. I would have them accept to join by pleading to them: « Please! ». I wasn’t a producer, so I was only appealing to their sympathy. I’d ask someone saying « You’re necessary to this project ». I thought that Howl was an all-out war, so I asked one by one to all the people I thought I couldn’t do without, and had them join. However, for various reasons, the project itself just crashed. When a project collapses, the director isn’t in a position to give any guarantee to the staff. So when this project collapsed, I felt very guilty for all those people. I said to them « We’re gonna make something great! », but I couldn’t fulfill my pledge. In a sense, I had lied to them. I had betrayed them. Now nobody would trust me again. You can’t make a film alone, so I really thought that would be the end for me (laughs). I’m serious. I thought I would just quietly recess into a corner of the industry, just scraping along, without making too much noise. (bitter laugh). While I was thinking that, Seki-san and Igarashi-san[4] gave me a chance with Ojamajo Doremi Dokkaan! 40th episode. On top of that, some very benevolent people told me that «If you’re working on something I want to be a part of it ». That was Sushio-san and Kubota-kun!

>>280360781
Yet he still a massive jobber.
Trained with the best masters on Earth, trained with deities, and still lost to Vegeta.

>>280360850
Final fragment:
>H: Yes. Because when you’ve set yourself a goal of some kind, usually, you don’t start prioritizing the buddy-buddy club halfway. What does « companion » mean for people like that? Of course, if you say something like « Friends are more precious than anything », you may gain the sympathy of the audience. But that’s not reality. In other words, among a staff that works together on a given work, sometimes things can happen that make people part from the group.
You can read the complete interview here:
https://instrangeaeonsblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/mamoru-hosoda-on-omatsuri-danshaku-animestyle-interview-part-1/

>>280360738
why you lump goku into that shit goku helped by other all the fucking times

>>280360502
>it would have gotten repetitive

As opposed to his power being he punches someone once?

>>280360722
I didn't say it was deep. This is explicit, surface-level stuff

>>280360722
toriyama already did that shit with goku overcome super saiyan rage through martial artist sparring frieza unlike the previous super saiyan that died from it

>>280355650
Not all shonen manga is slop like your favorites (OP/MHA/KnY/JJK/Dandadan).

The good big three has no chosen one super powers (JoJo before part 6, HxH, FMA) and no, Gon making a Nen contract when he's a Nen baby of two high Nen men doesn't make him chosen.

The only above average shonen since ~2010 is CSM (like a 6/10 series).

>>280360426
I stopped watching Naruto when he beat Gaara. What exactly is the problem with the Rock Lee narrative?

>>280355635 (OP)
>Deku
>Chosen one
???

>>280361719
It made people think that shonen is about hard work vs talent/chosenness when that's not even true for the series he was from

>>280361744
Chosen by All Might as his successor, yes.

>>280361744
All nushonen fags are former MHAfags who used to worship Deku and felt betrayed when their opinion makers made fun of MHA after the dancing season. So they need to do a lot of retroactive doublethink on their former idol.

>>280361813
He still wasn't part of some ancient prophecy that eventually makes him a demigod.

>>280361719
Continuing what >>280361782 said, Naruto and Sasuke were revealed to be reincarnations of ninja Jesus sons at the final arc and got power ups for that.
Rather than realizing that Nardo simply isn't about muh talent vs hardwork, they came up with a whole narrative that the manga had betrayed it's original premise.

>>280357336
Autism. People liked Rock Lee vs Gaara because it was shocking, entertaining and well animated. Gaara as a foe was terrifying and seemed invincible at the time so seeing joke character land a strike on him was shocking and showed you that anything could happen. Then it went even further with Rock Lee powering up and Gaara going insane almost killing the guy. Very tense and it felt like Rock Lee had a chance. Minato vs Obito has a similar fast paced feel but Shippuden suffers from being padded out with shit animation and soundtrack. The. subplots are generally lame too.

It’s really about the execution, Naruto and Rock Lee are both isolated underdogs except the latter is way less insufferable. Naruto is notoriously annoying with his preachy talk no jutsu, attention whore personality and his cringe inducing way of fighting.

>>280361894
He was LITERALLY CHOSEN

>mc never loses
>have to come up with quantum physics to take him out

>>280362022
Yes, he was literally chosen, as opposed to being figuratively The Chosen One, a trope which usually refers to someone being destined for greatness from start because he's the main character. Your once favorite character, Deku, earned him being *literally* chosen by Alt-Might to be his successor because he demonstrated personality traits which Alt-Might believes make the best heroes.

Imagine if the other braindead Herocuck's favorite character, Soirio Soigata, got chosen by Alt-Might instead.
>ALL THE BEST HEROES MOVE THEIR HIPS ON THEIR OWN BEFORE THEY CAN THINK
>Noooo Deku, give that tortured child back to the evil villain! THINK, before you act, THINK! [says a character with ~50 IQ, sidenote]

>>280362094
Yeah, Hellsing was cringe and aged terribly. The only memorable thing from the whole series for me was watching the one episode of Hellsing with the zombies from the original anime, it was animated much better than the other anime.

I would like to see an alternate universe where Hellsing came out after the fedora cataclysm in the West.

>>280358551
Why couldn't everyone learn disctro-disc? It ignores power levels for some reason.

i dropped mha the moment all shit gave that cuck super power in dragon ball everyone can train to do kamehameha you know

>>280362169
they actually can

>>280358744
The same may also be true for Sengoku's Buddha. Also for marco, he's still immortal without turning into a bird, can still summon his flames without becoming a bird. Marco IS immortal, Sengoku IS (smart? enlightened, fuck no), Chopper IS human, Luffy IS a rubber man (with toon force).

We see it also with say buggy. He just can't be cut, unless seastoned. The fruit system isn't 'correct' as per the categories presented to us, they're what ever Oda wants, and more fundamentally not so easy to pigeon hole. It's some kind of taxonomy people threw together to make sense of fucking imagination based magic, and we're told this a few times.

>>280355650
any recommendations from you or other anons?

>everyone is a sexless robot
>everyone gets together and has babies at the same time for a shitty next-gen story
Which kind of epilogue is worse?

>>280358780
The super strength blowing him up thing was shite (after a while, teething problem for the first major use, okay). Characters without some kind of enhancement quirk somehow also get enhanced (can tank buildings, slams into the ground that should cripple/kill), Deku getting OfA should instantly give him endurance buff, or at least over a few weeks he acquires it, other wise characters who produce heat/acid etc should have done a Dabi long ago (as fucking infants). Bakugo doesn't delete his hands because. It just boils down to what the plot needed. It's cool when MC goes all in with a suicide/self harm move and it actually self harms and causes the expected destruction/win/minor inconvenience.

>>280360220
>>gets strongest beeing sealed inside him
which does nothing for him except in the final arc
>>is the son of the strongest hokage (later revealed)
and what did naruto got from him? nothing retard and also hashirama is still stronger
>>is the reincarnation of hashira and the son of the 6path sage
again did nothing got from this, he only got the powers in the end from hagumuro because he wants to destroy the ciycle. in the end he lost the power. naruto didnt get any powers from the people u mentioned when he was born.

>>280359359
Didn't Bezos start in a garage? Might have had some connections to start (initial capital; but most businesses are done that way. You bank loan or try eek something out of family/public, and pray the idea lives long enough to turn a profit or even more investment).

>>280355635 (OP)
Ichigo is the worst for this and he should be here but no one cares about bleach because that shit was turbo ass 24/7

>>280359806
Two issue can ruin it, and every so often they'll even pair them together

1. It being a late or even end game reveal right when it matters the least since the characters and plot are already fully formed. All it accomplishes at that point is to feel like a cheap powerup to get the hero past some issue he's not capable of dealing with on his own so fate or the gods must intervene.

2. It often happens to protagonists that up to that point relied on their underdog, high effort persona as the basis of their likeability. So the reveal retroactively cheapens their journey and weakens their selling points.

In short, if you want to make a hero that has divine assistance or is fated to greatness, it's better to establish it early and focus on other aspects of their journey, like personal/spiritual growth or their personal relationships, rather than try to sell the reader on how great their efforts to reach a an already guaranteed excellence are.

>>280360047
But that's the point? The fruit doesn't give you its name. Modern people (as of the catalog) give the fruit their name. YOU THINK it does this, we can see it do that, so for now, it fits. We already had BB as 'logia that doesn't operate as logia', then katakuri. Zoan's had been weird as shit since Alabasta, a fucking gun 'ate' the dog fruit and can walk around and be talked to.

Bonnie's fruit is literally the 'do what ever the fuck I want' fruit so long as she has the imagination and WILL to fuck with reality.

Only now some 25 years later are we (really 30, we won't get anymore for years) getting some idea that fruits were made with wish magic, and basically anythings possible.

We'd seen for a long time that fruits couldn't be hard categorised, or at times a fruit that 'made you a thing' wouldn't let you 'be thing', or that 'you are a thing' but 'you can't make that thing', why? Because. So yea, the idea that say Mr 3 can't become wax is bullshit to me, it's his own limitation, logia as a class of fruit exists to make the user accept they can't do the thing that logia's can (be the thing, and make the thing).

So characters just have to go full Adam savage, 'I substitute this reality for my own'. Go full gemstone/ESP raildex, personal delusion (will) effects reality.

>>280358056
Gangyong from Veritas is like that but that's probably the only one i can think of. Claire from Claymore would count i think but that's a Seinen

>>280355650
/thread
Kagurabachi will be the same, btw

>>280358549
>how does the nika retcon change the fact luffy had to work hard to make the power his own?
It doesn’t, but that’s why literally every DF user do.
What was interesting about Luffy was not that he made his DF his own (like literally everyone else), but that he had he ingenuity to turn a shitty power into something strong. And it turned out it was always the strongest power that ever was, and it only seemed shitty on the surface

>>280355635 (OP)

It is pretty fucking boring how this just how much it ruins every single series out there. Even the big names aren't safe from it.

Even Toriyama couldn't leave Goku alone after 30 years. He had to go back and ruin him by making it so Bardock made a wish to make him some chosen one messiah baby.

At least Kenshin will always be JUST Kenshin. Some nobody shit scrub adopted peasant child called Shinta groomed into becoming a murderer.

>>280362684
It cannot ruin every single series out there because it does not even apply to the majority of these series

>>280362642
Eh, so far he just still punches people, with increase wacky shenanigans. When he finally uses it to go reality warper like fire force I might complain, but I'd also see it coming. Where he is now, he doesn't know how broken it might really be. He's comically no-sold attacks that should vaprize him for nearly two decades.

>>280362629
>will
Literally the son of japanese oppenheimer.
Using a nuke from chapter one.

>>280361782
>>280361941
But what about the fight with Naruto and Neji, where some teacher told him that a bird can escape its cage or something?

when opfags said luffy works hard i knew this shit is for retards

>>280362765

>Naruto / reincarnation of a ninja messiah's child (not even mentioning Kurama)
>Goku / some prophetic baby created by Dragon Balls
>Ichigo / bizarre cross species experiment child with every powerful tribe of people in his series
>Luffy / son of the world's most wanted terrorist and ate the PLOT PLOT fruit

Seems fairly applicable so far, chud.

>>280362629
He's already special

>>280362975
>>280363089
Okay then, I just never bothered to read it

>>280355635 (OP)
One Piece is the McDonalds of anime/manga.

>>280359359
The problem with shonen is it’s all just ripping off DBZ formula which is about astronomical powerscaling. So they always deviate from their initial premise to MC being chosen god king of the heavens so he can beat the next overpowered gary stu villain.

More people need to talk about the issue of overpowered villains as well, people seem to blame the MC as if he gained a gorillion powerups for no reason then worship 1 dimensional overpowered villains like Sukuna, Madara or Yhwach that are essentially impossible to beat without asspulls

>>280360848
>I didn't suggest anything
You said that any author can make an alternative and I called that a retarded answer because it just amounts to "just write better bro" then realizing you had nothing to counter you sperged over an reaction image.
>You're literally mad because people don't like what you like.
I'm just pointing out that the people with the most shit to say have bad ideas themselves. I wonder why that got under your skin?

>>280360687
good art but the paneling sucks

>>280360928
But that's not his power and he did change it as it went along.

>>280363088
You forgot the part about them being disadvantaged people working hard to overcome their shortcomings, a thing that is obviously not true for these characters who are shown to be special from the very beginning. Even someone like Ichigo isn't treated as just an ordinary human.

Luffy trained a lot and started his journey pretty strong based on that.

Genes do play a strong role I guess. Being the grandson of the strongest marine doesnt hurt.

>>280355635 (OP)
>Disadvantaged MC
>Mr. Uzumaki "passively heals by the minute with 4 times the chakra of an adult jonin" Naruto
>Learned to clima trees just a few more hours than the golden boy Sasuke

>>280363088
Goku, Ichigo and Luffy were never described as disadvantaged. Only Naruto.

That's what makes Naruto infuriating. Part 1 tries so hard to message hard work beats talent and all that and says Neji is wrong despite being absolutely right

>>280356944
Jonathan and Joseph got power crept HARD in BT and SDC respectively, we wouldn't get a REAL powerlevel reset until DiU.

>>280363578
>Part 1 tries so hard to message hard work beats talent
It's honestly just sad that people keep repeating this nonsense even after it gets called out multiple times in this very thread

>>280363088
Goku is amongst the last of a warrior race that mogs everyone in Dragon Ball's original cast. The only reason Goku is often seen as a hard work protagonist is because most people skip Dragon Ball and don't care about the humans.

>>280363878
>Goku is often seen as a hard work
are you implying goku does not work hard?
i swear this board is so goddamn retard

>>280363958
No. I'm saying that it's mostly his genetics. Tienshinhan is what Goku would be without them.

>>280363975
explain ginyu stealing body and become weaker than kurilin + gohan

>>280357018
World Triger. Osamu doesn't get weaker but his opponents and allies get so much stronger he looks more like fodder with every fight.

>>280364008
It's like stealing a fast car and not knowing how to drive it. That doesn't mean the car isn't fast.

>>280364043
no its a shit car

>>280358089
Ebisu is basing this one chapter 2 Naruto and would later go back on his word when seeing him attempt to walk on water.

>>280361692
>FMA
What? Edward is Hoenheim's son, and also got cheat hax alchemy powers where he doesn't need to draw a circle cause he saw the gate.

>>280362629
>Eyes only he and his father have that give them an ability to immediately understand the nature of things and copy them.
>They are red too.

It already happened.

>>280355635 (OP)
All of them spent YEARS trained with the power they were given anyway so idk what’s the problem is

>>280355635 (OP)
>Luke Skywalker is the son of the Space Jesus
>Paul Atreides is a Messiah, literally made to be Superhuman.
>Rand alThor is the Dragon Reborn.
>Harry Potter is the boy from the Prophesy.
>yada yada yada


I guess shonen readers who hate this trope are special kind of autists.

>>280364361
Based take. I agree.

>>280364112
Naruto only became able to walk on water because Jiraiya showed up and unfucked his seal
Naruto didn't earn that

>>280359806
The complaint is that the story starts with the premise that the MC is an underdog. Which has its own merit; the underdog MC has to struggle and try to outwit his adversaries instead of overpowering them. Then, once they are revealed to be a chosen one, the premise of the story is betrayed and so is the reader who joined for that reason.
This happens frequently enough to deserve hate.

>>280364652
but if they legitimately had to struggle to earn their power, then it's still earned

>>280364212
Jesus, can Japs be original for once?

>>280364825
It only seemed like they struggled. If they ever really lost, their inner demon or blessed bloodline would come out to overpower their opponent.

>>280355635 (OP)
I can't believe I'm defending Naruto here, but he never was the chosen one, even in the final battle he only used the rasengan and shadow clones, just really fancy versions of them.

>>280359192
>does Tanjiro count?
Muzan literally calls him the chosen one. Not metaphorically. Not through subtext. He literally tries to make Tanjiro his successor because no one else could carry his will or survive the transformation. That’s textbook chosen one shit. Coincidentally, his family are also the only ones immune to the sun, hence why he's the chosen one.
>he is still far behind Sanemi, GODjima and Yoriichi himself.
He's only behind Yoriichi. Tanjirou literally fucking stalls a murderous Muzan for a long time single-handedly while he beat Shinazugawa, Gyoumei, Giyuu and Obanai in combination like the side characters they are. By the end of the series, he's very well above everyone else except Yoriichi.

>>280360738
Based, love OP movie 6, by far the best and most unique take on One Piece of the bunch. Thanks for the interview.
>>280360426
I'm a Leefag, and I admit I was also tricked into thinking hard work vs natural talent was a theme of Naruto. To be fair, Naruto also had some moments where his mentors go "he's talentless compared to Sasuke but it's his determination to work hard and never give up that makes him special." With Lee, it's just compelling to see an underdog surprise everyone, also his taijutsu is cool and the animators gave Lee special treatment in his two important fights. If anything Kishimoto was wrong for shafting Lee completely in Part 2 after spending so much time building up his character in Part 1. All he had to do was give Lee the 8 gates moment against Madara instead of Guy. Madara acknowledges Lee as a splendid ninja, and his arc is then complete, he can die crippled and happy.

>>280364842
You tell me.

>>280364527
That wasn't the point.

>>280363975
If the human characters were ad popular as popular as vegeta, they'd probably be much stronger. Popularity is the only reason vegeta is alive. The ToP showcased us that powerlevels are hyper fluid and bullshit anyway seeing how master roshi nearly mafubaed frost and jiren is just a buff ayy

>>280364157
1.Being Hoenheim's son simply gave him affinity towards alchemy, he still had to study and work hard, while yes that definitely would make things easier for him, i wouldn't call that Chosen one tier
2.There were 4 other characters that could do that and technically ANY Alchemist who would make a human sacrifice

>>280363434
True they begin being disadvantaged people that work hard at the beginning, but all of that rings hollow( pun intended ) when at the end of the series it is revealed that the character was chosen by fate to have always been special, Ichigo started as just a rando with Shinigami powers, but as the series went on, more and more secrets about his origin were revealed, the fact that his father was a captain level Shinigami, or that his mother was a top pure blooded quincy + the Aizens White hollow powers inside him + him being potential new soul King etc.
TL;DR; whatever underdog status potential this characters had went out the window as the story progressed

>>280366906
But is that really so different from Luke being the son of Anakin? Seems more like a hero trope than anything. I think the moral here is that great people come from special lineages, not ordinary peasants. The noble class has always been the one that had heroic epics written about it.

>>280355635 (OP)
I guess that’s true…if you ignore all the training, struggling, and defeats they spend years suffering through to get to that point.

>>280367510
1. Luke Being the Son of Anakin doesn't exist to justify his powers, But a way to give him a challenge of overcoming Vaders Evil and redeeming him
2. While Genetics are important in IRl The fact remains that most of the shonen stories that are complained about sold themselves as a story about a nobody underdog becoming someone great by their own grit and wit with help from people around them, yet at the end it turns out they were never an underdog, but a really talented and generically gifted individuals who had amazing advantages
3.As for epics being written about heroes who were sons of important figures/Deities, those stories never had any illusions about the hero character being anything but a special one with amazing lineage, if Naruto/Bleach etc. stories established those fact from the begging this conversation wouldn't exist

>>280355635 (OP)
>>280355702
MIKUMO DOWN