Thread 280812762

Lucifer
https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1025852

>>280812779
>Satan was the one who actually induced the rebellion
Well, I guess it fits his role as the 'adversary'.
Also funny that he looked like a kid since forever. I wonder if he even has an adult form.

>>280813084
>Satan also wants a lawless (godless) world like the witches
Maybe that's why he helped Baba Yaga.

>>280812950
>seethes over God casting humans and demons into hell and making them die again and again
>proceeds to try to do the same shit with demons to "make them stronger"
BRAVO LUCIFER-SAMA

>>280813115
This image is too small... Let me fix it

>>280813145
You don't understand anon! Lucifer will for sure do things better than the entity that created literally everything, because, reasons!!!!!

>>280812779
Cute shota

>>280813145
lucifer is a fucking retard

>>280812920
It was actually his wife, Satan fell because of love which is why love is the greatest sin

>>280813304
>>280813145
Nah, you guys don't know anything, believe in the demons and their potentials, surely they can get over it and evolve even if the chance of it happening is 0%

>>280813115
Sorry, editing is hard on a phone.
Back to posting!

>>280813401
The funny thing is that even if Lucifer were to somehow purify all of Hell, he'd only be able to bring his side's strength back up to what it was when the Rebellion happened. And since they lost at the height of their power, I doubt they're gonna succeed if things went according to Lucifer's plan.

>>280813084
>That includes your schemes.
You guys think Satan was trying to corrupt humanity with the Apple at the same time this was happening?

>>280813353
Yeah, it's the center theme of the story after all. Imuri is a powerless demon and yet everything bends to her before coming crashing down

>>280813465
> I doubt they're gonna succeed if things went according to Lucifer's plan
Nah, it will succeed, if you don't believe in them, believe in the guy who believes in them instead. Who do you think he is!?

>>280813513
It makes sense really, you're supposed to love god above all else after all

>>280813572
TRACED from Berserk btw

>>280813693
Man, that's a great fucking panel.

>>280813692
Spoiler image, I forgot we are having a dump

>>280813760
How about waiting until the dump is over next time? This fucks gallery mode viewing.

Chapter End.
Sorry for the scuffed posting. I tried using a phone app at first for image merging but it was bad. Had to use a website. I usually don't post on my phone, but right now we blew a fuse.
Thanks for tuning in!

>>280813850
Sorry, I was having so much fun with Lucifer
>>280813939
Thank you anon

Lucifer wins this btw. It was already fortold by him, he just sees something and decides to cave. He was never defeated.

>>280813760
So what is he going to lose?, one will probably be Dante but what about the other

I love Lucifer, he's such a fun take on pride. He'd be the shounen MC in another story.

Him looking like Laios combined with his personality has really grown on me. It just suites him.

>>280813823
one more for my "demon lord presentation" panels, almost complete - maybe 1-2 more spots to fill from the way the story seems to be going.

>>280814938
There is only Satan missing, unless Imuri/Mr. Priest/Lilith/God get one.

>>280814938
Were all of them double spreads?

>>280814111
He foretold that they were going to convince him that he was wrong and teach him a lesson. Not that he would lose the fight.
>>280813693
>>280813823
>>280813115
>>280812950
This chapter had a lot of great pages.

>>280815081
Mammon and Asmodeus' weren't

>>280815081
Mammon's wasn't.
Technically he hasn't his in the same format as the others, so there could still be his moment when he gets his duel again like Bel.

>>280813939
Thanks, anon!

>>280815204
Asmodeus was a spread too in chapter 1. Just not a full spread.

>>280815273
Ah you're right, I was thinking of her introduction during chapter 51

>>280815305
Now that I think about it, all the other Demon Lords have a panel saying 'I AM', but Lucifer has his saying 'MY NAME IS'.
Fitting that he differentiates himself from the others.

>>280813084
>>280812779
Cute evil shota

>>280815073
>no Baba Yaga
Grim

>>280815659
She will get a spread but she is no Demon Lord.
Unless she gets something like Vanaglory after eating all the other sins and undergoes a process like Father-kun.

Is Father gonna become Lord of Despair? Seems he's just been on a slow path towards losing faith in everything

>>280815887
Lord of love

>>280815887
He'll become the Lord of the Dance.

>>280815739
Baba Yaga's already a really good parallel to Priest.
>starts off as a devotee trying to spread good in the world
>but eventually gets overwhelmed by all the suffering inflicted by assholes in the church and becomes a witch herself
>referred to as an "it", like she's a thing that satan's using to achieve his goals, very similar to how abbot nicholas refers to priest
At this point, she's genuinely a better love interest than Imuri. (But tbf that's a pretty low bar kek)

Lucifer being portrayed as a plucky shonen protagonist is one of the more inspired ways I've seen the sin of Pride depicted

i don't really like lucifer mainly because of the whole thing of seeing gods plan

>>280816215
It's cool because a common staple of animanga is the protagonist defying godly beings and fate through the sheer force of their own will to get the future they want. Taking that idea and putting it in the context of Christianity, where such a line of thinking doesn't work because God actually does know what's best for everyone and ends up devolving into a major sin if left untreated, makes Lucifer a really fun archdemon to witness, especially compared to his compatriots.

>>280816247
There was no plan. What he saw was just one of the possible futures.

>>280815887
love...for that is what is leading him to "sin".
But that leads to another question is the priest committing any sin here? for the church - obviously! for the angels - probably for he is not 'that' favored by them anymore but they too are short-sighted... What about the opinion that actually matters? what about God?
We know now that God loves is what powers everything, for even lower demons and the demon lords only still hold power because it favors them on its love... guided by love the priest is saving the entirety of Gehenna, but is that a sin?
gotta wait and see what he will lose

If love is going to be sin isn't God the biggest sinner

>>280813465
I think that's only Part A. If I remember right, his ultimate goal is to bring EVERYONE, humans and demons, up to his level. So Part B is invading the mortal realm, stopping the witches, then mass-purifying humanity to bolster his forces potentially billions more.

It'd still fail because he's trying to overthrow ultimate reality with swords and anime magic, but it'd be a whole lot more impressive.

>>280815887
He seems to have faith in his new demon buddies. But seriously, I think that all hangs on how everyone sees Mr. Priest after all this. He's likely lost faith in himself more than anything - see the massive self-induced guilt trip post Asmodeus in the Lust arc for how he reacts to fucking up.

>>280815887
I wonder if he'll become a Demon Lord of Hope (which would be quite similar to your idea). A big thing with Priest is him building up hope before it's completely smashed in front of him (thinking he could finally relate to someone with Aria before she reveals she's Asmodeus, getting hopepilled after Imuri reveals she's in love with him before she gets bricked by Marco, etc.)

>>280816762
I think a big part of Ekouto is that while love by itself is pure, it's easy to twist that love into something sinful. Imuri's been in love with Priest since the end of the Envy arc and yet is still complicit in the whole Aria debacle. Vergil and Dante love each other, but that love's not strong enough for them to work through whatever issues they have together.

>>280812950
Why didn't he look further? Or is that the end?

>>280812991
Fuck (fa)god's plan. See Lucifer tried to do the right thing, but they were all doomed anyway.

>>280813500
Fucking based.

>>280817403
he is kinda dumb

>>280813699
>>280813779
His wings look very lewd. Like it's not something that should be shown to anyone but your lover lewd. I dunno why I feel this way.

>>280813304
You're acting there's a singular answer to everything, but living things are more complex than that. You're assuming people want what's best or that there exist something like that in the first place.

>>280813132
I hope he succees. Killing God. Just the phrase alone almost makes me cum.

>>280817828
Vergil...

>>280815887
He's going to redeem the fallen angels.

the unavoidable problem with using this kind of theme in fiction is that there's no good answer to the question of evil existing despite God being an omnipotent good. There has never been a satisfying theodicy despite a significant portion of the best philosophers in history working on it, some random manga artist isn't going to come up with one.
It still makes some really great material for character motivations and shit and all the other stuff that comes with it like the flashy catholic aesthetics and biblical references are great but it really limits where you can take your endings. Either you just pick one of the unsatisfying answers and pretend that solves it so you can close the narrative, or just give up and do the "I guess we just can't understand" thing which always feels cheap after bringing it up.

>>280815305
at least she also got this in chapter one, someone should just make an edit with the usual phrase

>>280818383
There is always the possibility of this spiraling into God allowing free will. Also people are just hardly accept if you try to bring different perspectives from humans

>>280818383
The manga's been making a lot of parallels to Paradise Lost so far, with Satan being the one to bring doubt among the fallen angels about God's plan and the resulting rebellion causing them all to fall into Hell. (Of course, there's some changes to the manga, like how this chapter implies that Satan was introducing evil to humanity through the apple even before they were all cast down to Hell, when in Paradise Lost Satan did it as a means of getting back at God for casting them away by poisoning His most beloved creation).
The way I see it, faith in God is trusting Him with the plans He was for the world, and that even the evil that exists in it somehow serves His purpose, even if we can't understand it. I can see the manga leaning towards that route, given how it beats the readers over the head with the fact that God IS the source of all love and goodness.

>>280818588
God's whole thing is letting people exercise their free will. Everybody's free to choose God or turn away from Him. He could've just smited Satan before he could convince Eve and Adam to eat the Apple, but then that would've denied Adam and Eve the opportunity to prove to God that they can resist the temptations of evil.

>>280816818
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Completely agree, though.

>>280818715
How about not creating life in the first place

>>280818999
Your arc is already done, Belphegor.

>>280817403
Eternal suffering is a long time.

>>280818715
Why couldn't God allow free will and still not make people suffer? Was he not capable, or not willing?
The Epicurean Paradox predates Christ and no one has ever come up with a better answer than "Humans can't understand God's plan"

>>280819104
Why suffering can't exist?

>>280819194
What do you mean?
It does exist, but a purely kind and loving God obviously wouldn't let people suffer for no reason.
You can say "So obviously suffering exists for a reason" but why can't an all powerful, truly omnipotent God accomplish whatever his goals are without causing suffering?
Either he causes suffering without reason, in which case he isn't purely Good, or he can't prevent suffering, in which case he isn't truly all-powerful. People have been arguing about that for more than 2000 years and no one has come up with a good answer.

>>280812950
Making the mother of all omelettes here Lucifer
Can't fret every egg!

you people are almost discussing about instincts

>>280818627
Actual Christianity has got to be the most boring lens through which to view this story.
>god wins because god is good and truth and light and love and doesn’t afraid of anything and
What an absolutely pointless narrative.

>>280820479
I'm fine with the story just sticking to an actually Christian view with things. I'd argue that's one of the manga's biggest strengths, actually taking the time to properly examine Christianity as a religion rather than just using it as set dressing like other works like it tend to do. A "Christian" ending to the manga would honestly make it stand out compared to the good old "I will DEFY God with the POWER of FRIENDSHIP/LOVE" that we all usually enjoy.

>>280820479
You spend too much time around american evangelical rock and not the sorts of christians that actually interrogate their faith.
Calvinism and it's consequences are shit-tier christianity.

>>280820387
The most based character in the whole manga. Most of the manga wouldn't have happened if she was around to tard wrangle the church.

>>280819354
>You can say "So obviously suffering exists for a reason" but why can't an all powerful, truly omnipotent God accomplish whatever his goals are without causing suffering?
I'm sure everybody has a different answer, but for me it ties back into Adam and Eve eating the apple. God could've done any number of things to keep them from doing so, but then His beloved creations would never truly choose God instead of defying Him, because they would have no choice in the matter.

>>280812950
>>280812991
as retarded as lucifer is, if there's a reason to rebel then I think 'Eternal Suffering for all' is as good a reason to rally together than any...

>>280813693
Someone just played through Shadowbringers
>The road that we walk is lost in the flood
>Here proud angels bathe in their wages of blood
>at this, the worlds end do we cast off tomorrow
https://youtu.be/Wc4w0AXWcnI?t=205

>>280821187
That response is as useless to a skeptic as the initial question is to a believer. Your views are incompatible and you will never understand one another in any meaningful capacity.

>>280821187
Ehh, people that want to believe will find their own explanations, religion has never cared much about logical arguments in the first place and sometimes that can be fine if it is a positive influence and helping people, but a truly omnipotent God could both allow free will and prevent suffering.
There were periods in history where
>God could've done any number of things to keep them from doing so, but then His beloved creations would never truly choose God instead of defying Him,
Would have probably been considered blasphemy because you're implying God couldn't do something.

And either way, the current state of the world could be very, very different even accepting an initial, somehow unavoidable exposure to sin 6000 years ago, without contradicting free will.

>>280821659
You're probably right kek
We might as well just both sit back and enjoy the manga, whatever direction it takes.

>>280813500
Kek he’s such an asshole

>>280813823
FVARK

>see part of a prophecy
>Do the thing that literally creates the prophecy
>Does it again
>And again
>Never once questioned whether there was more to the story
>He just read two pages ahead in a story and refused to finish the rest because the thinks he knows enough

>>280812762 (OP)
What’s with those eyes? Are we going to see a seraphim?

>>280812991
>mammon was wearing monocle
I thought angels don’t have concept of fashion and isn’t during that time predates the invention of any glasses as well?

>>280818627
Even if you can understand it why would you accept it? Do you think a girl who was gangraped is going to feel better if you tell her about how her suffering is a noble sacrifice for the greater good? A greater good you admitted to not even understand.

>>280820387
Yeah, yeah tell that to the 80 billions animals tortured and slaughtered every fucking year, you fanatic bitch . This by the way doesn't include aquatic life.

Gluttony, Sloth and Pride were right.

>>280825331
He didn't act immediatly on it, speedreader. Once he saw everything going according to plan despite his inaction he started to rebel while hoping to defy destiny.

>>280826530
No shit its going according to plan, because you yourself put in motion the events for the story to take that direction. Its a cyclical loop, by looking ahead he created the conditions to create the bad end future that he eventually created.

Think of time like a book; he looked a few pages ahead, and flipped out before reading any further, or even asking what the plan was. There's more to the book, he doesn't know whether the story is a bad ending, he just decided he didn't like a few pages ahead in the story. What if it was a happy ending eventually?

>>280826293
Read the story of Job
And I don't mean just the part where things go badly, read the ending as well. Read the part that barely anyone seems to remember.

>>280826584
What part of eternal suffering do you not understand?

>>280825331
He very clearly states he did nothing initially and things were still proceeding as prophesied and if there is some sort of grand reveal that justifies everything he saw and would somehow convince him to stop rebelling the fault lies with God for not just showing him that

>>280826622
I know the stupid story. From a modern perspective it's simple abuse and grooming.

>>280826751
>I know the story
You know the pop culture version of the story you're told in passing in order to hate the story, its a story passed around by athiests to say why they hate it, but barely anyone actually reads the full thing. Its not grooming, if anything the story feels more about how karma isn't a real thing, bad things don't happen because you were a bad person, sometimes they happen for reasons you can't comprehend, and your neighbors who condemn you because bad things happened to you are wrong. Conversation between God and Job at the end of the story alone is worth reading.

>>280826819
I have once again been tricked into reading bible gibberish by an Anon in these threads only to learn absolutely nothing new about the story. I will not be doing that again.

>>280827159
Why are reading a Biblical themed manga with no interest in the background?

>>280828522
NTA but I think a major reason is because while the manga generally favors the Church and Heaven as the good guys and the demons and witches as the villains, it still fleshes out all sides of the conflict so it's not immediately obvious it's picking a side. And that emboldens people from all walks of life that have some connection to Christianity, from actual Christians to atheists that can relate to the arguments Beelzebub, Belphegor, and Lucifer pose against the religion, to gay people that might sympathize with Dante and Vergil's plight. It's no surprise that some people may be approaching the manga as a means to dunk on Christians and nothing more.
It's part of why I'm nervous about the manga blowing up in popularity if it gets an anime adaptation. I'd very much love to see it, but it tackles a bunch of sensitive issues and will therefore spark a fireworks show's worth of retarded internet arguments.

>>280828522
Nothing like what >>280829479 said. I think the church and biblical lore make good set dressing for a story about an unfortunate kid bearing the weight of the world and being duped into falling in love. Enjoying that has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the principles described in the bible.

>>280829721
My bad, sorry for misjudging you. I was speaking more generally about the kinds of people this manga's bound to attract.
I'm not even Christian myself, but I do find learning about the Bible in my own time helps me appreciate the manga better. (Though I think I'm starting to lean towards what it's teaching so your mileage may vary)

>>280813823
SHONEN MC ENTER

By the way, Volume 12's opening cover's just been officially teased. Posting it here for anyone who wants to see without going to Xitter.

>>280830411
Thanks. Solid cover, but I just feel a bit sad about how rofl-copter is dead after being a bro.

What do you think the chances are of a happy ending for Mr. Priest living the rest of his life in peace and happiness?

>>280831227
Negative -50%.
Dude's going to end up being the world's sacrifice for happier times.

>>280831429
You do realize a negative of a negative is a positive? So -(-50) == 50, you are giving Mr. Priest a 50-50 chance of a happy ending. I just want the wee lad to be happy. But as this parallels "Paradise Lost" in weeb form, I think Mr. Priest is doomed.

>>280831141
Roflkeks...our revival is nigh......

>>280831429
>>280831477
I don't know, I'm still holding out hope. With all the growth he experienced through the Sloth arc of trying to find a reason to live beyond being needed to fight the demon lord, I feel it'd be pretty lame if he just went "oh nevermind Belphegor was right, back to wanting to die I go."

>>280831227
He has a place in heaven, he'll be happy there.

>>280821590
Yeah totally seems that way. But I prefer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFGw1RI0Kts with that scene.

>>280813693
A crown of swords...

>>280813693
With no context, it looks like they're signalling each other. With context that they're fighting, Lucifer really looks like the protag.

>>280812779
Oh you just had to doubt things and cause the doom of everyone, did you?

>>280834185
Quit blaspheming the will of God, Lucifer's doing exactly what Father wants

>>280813500
Man, this guy is the incarnation of "hell is paved with good intention"

>>280831227
100%.

Trvst in the Lord

So if Lucifer is the strongest, what's Satan plan to get a power-up for not having all the others gang up on him now that they are on Father-kun's camp?

>>280819035
Speaking of, where is he anyway?

>>280813115
>Brought almost every demon lord on his side
>But no Bephelgor

>>280812950
Here’s the thing about hell even just in this manga: there is no cosmic force causing the suffering. It’s not an infinite misery machine. We’ve seen enough to know that demons “can” be nice, even if they’re warped. All the suffering comes because demons and humans can’t stop being assholes to one-another and each-other. That’s why I’m expecting the story to land on the “free will” answer to theodicy.

>>280813823
He really is amazing.

>>280836045
They're not all in his camp so much as their interests align in not having Gehenna burn down from his experiment. Lucifer won't interfere for no reason.

>>280837271
I think he spent all his power making the Ark, so he's still trying to recover.

>>280837359
Interesting how the only demon lords that care about their subordinates are the ones fighting on the front lines.

>>280813444
He really is the hero of his story.

>>280812762 (OP)
seraphim eyes

>>280847286
Isn't that an Ophanim?

>>280847286
>>280847952
So is it this?

>>280851022
I think so. Or at least part of it.