Thread 281343718

Why can't other shounen authors put as much thought into their villains as Araki does?

Araki's villains are complex and original, and explored in great detail. In most shounen the villain is just a figurehead for the heroes to fight with a generic motivation.

calamity

>>281343718 (OP)
You should read Hokuto no Ken.

>>281343731
Araki's not allowed to fumble?

Araki takes classical literature and turns it into wacky comic burlesque. His interest in classical art & literature is the source of his superiority.

Dio is only complex in the first half of Jojo part 1, after he becomes a vampire he just becomes a generic "take over the world" villain. This carries into part 3 where we don't see him fully until the end where he continues to be an arrogant and cruel "take over the world" villain.

Kars is very one note until around he becomes perfect where the entire time he's just playing around and chewing the scenary

Diavolo isn't complex either, he's more unique for being a straight up paranoid schizophrenic.

I have no idea what he was smoking for Part 8's villain

>>281343830
Why are you cherrypicking all the examples of his simple villains? Yes, not all of his villains are particularly interesting characters. However, Kira, Pucci and Valentine are leagues above the standard shounen fanfare.

>>281343870
>cherrypicking
They're the main antagonists of their respective parts, how is it cherry picking?

>>281343870
>less than half of his villains are "complex and original"
Then why did you even bother to make this thread when the stuff you list in OP doesn't even apply to most of his manga
It's more like Araki's writing is shit most of the time (this is what you get by planning only five chapters ahead and making shit up on the go) but sometimes he does come up with something decent, not "Araki's writing is deep and well-thought BUT he has a ton of fuckups"

>>281344088
You are a complete moron, my dear retard.

>>281344088
Anon, how stupid are you exactly?
If an author can write good villains, then it begs the question why other authors from the same genre cannot create good villains.
Just because the author hasn't always written good villains does not invalidate the original question.
You are quite literally as stupid as it gets.

>>281343731
This is actually the perfect answer.
Other authors are too afraid of fumbling to take a risk with their big villain.
Araki isn't afraid to, which is why his villains can be so good (and also so bad).

Was Tooru just a bad fluke, or a sign of things to come? Because he came after Funny Valentine.

>>281346491
Tooru was probably a fluke due to Covid and Araki wrapping up his series. He took 2 years off so hopefully hes got a good idea for a compelling main villain, and im not too sure Acca is gonna be the MV, seems more like a Damo, the secondary villain. Could be cool for Acca to be the rissoto of the part, fighting the villain but not alongside our characters

Also should we even count Tooru? I mean Jobin in terms of screen time and actions does far more than Tooru. I know we should, but it just sucks Tooru came in like a train, killing all the complex characters, and turning the story into, defeat baddie until we win

In DBZ there's a focus on the fighting rather than the motivations, it's a shounen so there shouldn't be that much thinking going on (you can read VNs or watch dramas for that).
I think that's the gold standard for writing in a shounen, keeping in mind a 10 year old will read the story and many stop following once they grow older.

He's still better than the crap SJ puts out now, the stories still have great themes like fighting evil.

>>281346491
As we saw in the storytime, JJL's story was a mess even before Tooru was a thing. It just became even worse due to Covid.

>>281343718 (OP)
>>281344714
>>281344738
Crossboarding newfags all behave the exact same way when they don't hear what they want.

>>281347870
>no argument
No problem idiot.

>>281347870
>>281344714
>>281344738
Crossboarding newfag nigger with no argument who only exists to shit up /a/.

>>281348520
You sound upset. Next time try not to start arguments you're not smart enough to win.

>>281343718 (OP)
>>281344714
>>281344738
>>281348445
>>281348743
Why do crossboarding newfag niggers all read off the same bad faith script?

>>281348839
>mass reply
>random archive screencap
Trademark schizo idiot.

>>281348875
>bawwww my newfag buzzword is sure to cause physical pain to anonymous in real life!!!

>>281348912
>lose argument, badly
>start screeching about crossboarders, posting archive screencaps, call people 'nigger'
Yep, you've been done good. Clearly it's hurting you too.

>>281343718 (OP)
>Araki's villains are complex
Dio
Kars
Diavolo
Tooru
Fuck, Kira isn't complex either, especially since Araki decided not to put his backstory in the manga. Not that most of those mentioned aren't great villains, but complex they are not.

>>281348978
Anon he's going to insult you and spam another buzzword as if that "defeated" you.

The key to great shounen villains is to...make them actual characters. People who interact with others, who are seen in various ways by others, etc. It seems obvious but Japan REALLY struggles with this; normally the villain is just there to create a flashy fight scene with the protagonists at the end of the arc, which makes them more of a prop instead of a character. Another important point that shounen fails out almost always is developing the villains' philosophy which is antithetical to the hero's. It's usually something childish like "only the strong deserve to live", "I will create a new world", etc. In shounen you'll never hear a villain explain why the hero's screaming about feelings, bonds, etc, is retarded in detail, even if they should be able to. The hero will never be forced to face themselves and grow, it's always bonds leads to punching harder. It's slop trash.

>>281343718 (OP)
Because new generation is too sensitive and think liking a villain characters make them bad people

>>281349266
>It's usually something childish like "only the strong deserve to live", "I will create a new world", etc. In shounen you'll never hear a villain explain why the hero's screaming about feelings, bonds, etc, is retarded in detail, even if they should be able to.
I've seen that a few times in manga and anime
Usually the response from the hero is that they're wrong and have no friends
Or the villain does something cartoonishly evil that makes their point moot because why would you listen to guy after he does something like that?

>>281343736
>You should read Hokuto no Ken.
Not OP but I've read Hokuto no Ken and the problem with the villains are either they are jobbers that are there to get fucked by Ken or they do the most evil things in the world but are redeemed by the end after they're done fighting Ken, die, and the audience is supposed to feel bad for them by the end

>>281343718 (OP)
Would Kira escape Kira’s (you know the one)?

>>281348978
Kira is funny because when you really look into it, he wasn’t a geniuses, just a very competent office worker. All the trick he pulled are stuffs anyone with an actual brain would account for, and that make him realistic

>>281343718 (OP)
>um he just wanted a quiet life!
>spends most of the manga doing nothing but drawing attention to himself
Part 4 was shit, I really don't get why retards continue to stroke it off as the high point of the series.

>>281343718 (OP)
araki's villains aren't "complex", but they're certainly given room to have their eccentricities, to stumble around a bit and have fun

>>281349617
That's the point anon
Kira is someone who claims to want a quiet life but his homicidal tendencies prevent this
When he's put against other stand users he's either toying with them to satisfy his own sick urges or seems them as an annoyance that stop him doing what he wants

>>281348978
>Kira isn't complex either, especially since Araki decided not to put his backstory in the manga.
If I remember correctly he was going to have it be that his mom was abusive to him and his father did nothing about it
Araki ended up not putting it in because he felt it would make Kira too sympathetic and detract from how much of a scumbag he was

>>281349730
Yes, exactly that.

>>281349730
Did he mention in what way his mom would be abusive to him?

>>281349808
I think it was she would verbally abuse him

>>281343775
Other shounen authors aren't allowed to fumble?

>>281343731
storm

>>281348978
You don't know what complex means, brainlet.

I think Hunter X Hunter has villains who are a bit more complex than in other Shonen Jump titles.

>>281351712
Nope.
Meruem is complex, that's it.
If you think Hisoka is a complex character, then you are not intelligent.

>>281351712
Sensui from YYH was interesting.

>>281343731
calm down

>>281349457
You can just say you're a midwit, HnK is filled with villains much deeper than OP's goober. The author of OP's goober didn't even go fully sympathetic with Kira.

>>281351712
CHADthru

>>281353146
Yeah that's the problem
Making the villains sympathetic like that just undercuts all the evil they did previously and the way it was done was in a disingenuous way
Kira being made sympathy would explain why he's the way he is but it would make his actions less villainous if all he amounted to was mommy was mean to me
Even Dio didn't have Dario be his defining reason for being why he is. As speedwagon was from the same shitty ghetto but he was able to become an upstanding man
Hell Speedwagon was there longer than Dio

>>281353331
I like how Kira almost got an ounce of sympathy when it seemed like he cared about Shinobu during the cat plant fight but then Kira backpedals and convinces himself that he doesn't care because he only thinks about Jotaro

>>281353439
It seems after he got bites the dust that he was warming up to the idea of being a family man
But I think it comes from him having superiority over Hayato and Hayato living in fear under him

>>281353331
>Yeah that's the problem
You're creating the problem for yourself
>Making the villains sympathetic like that just undercuts all the evil they did previously and the way it was done was in a disingenuous way
It doesn't, it makes the characters feel like there's more to them than just that which is just how humans are. This makes them feel more real. Even so HnK is filled with goons to your taste along with its deeper villains
>Kira being made sympathy would explain why he's the way he is but it would make his actions less villainous if all he amounted to was mommy was mean to me
Araki is childish and stupid and seems sheltered as fuck I don't care what his reasons are
>Even Dio didn't have Dario be his defining reason for being why he is. As speedwagon was from the same shitty ghetto but he was able to become an upstanding man
True, but that's because Dio is Jojo's defining character and exists to be an inherently evil character, someone who is driven by self interest and has that hunger inside them that you could call evil
I'm not underrating Jojo but reading HnK only reveals just how influential it was to Araki and the value of an artist/writer team (imo) because HnK is much, much better at delivering its points and many of those points are just filtered or poorly implemented in Jojo

>>281353554
>You're creating the problem for yourself
It's not creating a problem, it's an inherit problem that's clearly presented
>It doesn't, it makes the characters feel like there's more to them than just that which is just how humans are. This makes them feel more real. Even so HnK is filled with goons to your taste along with its deeper villains
It's deeper villains aren't any better either. They hold the same might makes right mentality that even their goons have as well. Shin was someone who had a bit of depth to his actions but then it was just made the same motivation for the others like Raoh and Kaioh: Yuria
>Araki is childish and stupid and seems sheltered as fuck I don't care what his reasons are
He's really not. His reasons for not going through with that decision was pretty justified
>True, but that's because Dio is Jojo's defining character and exists to be an inherently evil character, someone who is driven by self interest and has that hunger inside them that you could call evil
Yes that's the point of Dio. He's someone who despite his upbringing and moving into a better lifestyle and getting more power than any man still uses it for self serving interests. It reveals how power enables more than it corrupts. Speedwagon and his foundation become a driving force for good with all their power influence throughout the parts
>I'm not underrating Jojo but reading HnK only reveals just how influential it was to Araki and the value of an artist/writer team (imo) because HnK is much, much better at delivering its points and many of those points are just filtered or poorly implemented in Jojo
Well that's comparing apples to oranges there. Jojo takes a lot of character desgin and personality elements from HnK but they are very different in terms of plot, story, setting, characterization, themes, and overall nuance
The points made in HnK don't apply to Jojo as Jojo has more than one point through out each of it's parts while keeping it's main theme of fate

>>281343718 (OP)
I love him, one of my favorite antagonists of all time

>>281353816
>It's not creating a problem, it's an inherit problem that's clearly presented
"I can't get into anything that isn't a rape happy grunt" is a (You) problem, sorry
>It's deeper villains aren't any better either. They hold the same might makes right mentality that even their goons have as well.
Its a post-apocalypse story and their chaos aligned outside people like Raoh attempting to bring about order even if through force
>Shin was someone who had a bit of depth to his actions but then it was just made the same motivation for the others like Raoh and Kaioh: Yuria
Many men are motivated by women. Many. This is a poor argument and doesn't diminish their individual character. Shin is also like the worst example because the Yuria explanation in chapter 121 is like the most poorly executed thing in the entire first half of the manga
>He's really not. His reasons for not going through with that decision was pretty justified
You're childish and stupid and probably sheltered as fuck
>Yes that's the point of Dio. He's someone who despite his upbringing and moving into a better lifestyle and getting more power than any man still uses it for self serving interests. It reveals how power enables more than it corrupts. Speedwagon and his foundation become a driving force for good with all their power influence throughout the parts
Absolutely
>Well that's comparing apples to oranges there. Jojo takes a lot of character desgin and personality elements from HnK but they are very different in terms of plot, story, setting, characterization, themes, and overall nuance
Not really, I don't think you know what half of that shit really means.
>The points made in HnK don't apply to Jojo as Jojo has more than one point through out each of it's parts while keeping it's main theme of fate
Retard shit

>>281354332
>"I can't get into anything that isn't a rape happy grunt" is a (You) problem, sorry
I didn't say that nor was that implied
>Its a post-apocalypse story and their chaos aligned outside people like Raoh attempting to bring about order even if through force
Which is no different than any of his soldiers he has under him. Hell that's what Jako does
>Many men are motivated by women. Many. This is a poor argument and doesn't diminish their individual character. Shin is also like the worst example because the Yuria explanation in chapter 121 is like the most poorly executed thing in the entire first half of the manga
It's not a poor point. Raoh and Kaioh both end up making a woman being the motivation of their goals which under cuts the relationships they made with kenshiro and their overall goal for the land they wish to create
>You're childish and stupid and probably sheltered as fuck
This is starting to sound like projection than an actual observation
>Not really, I don't think you know what half of that shit really means.
It's very much true when you unpack both series and you see how both have similarities but it's more through visual in general ideals instead of what's at the root of both
>Retard shit
It's not

>>281353287
He's not complex at all. He's just your typical nerd sociopath.

>>281354495
>I didn't say that nor was that implied
>Making the villains sympathetic like that just undercuts all the evil they did previously and the way it was done was in a disingenuous way
.
>Which is no different than any of his soldiers he has under him. Hell that's what Jako does
If you toss out everything else that makes up Raoh's character and personal morality, sure, you'd create a problem for yourself
>It's not a poor point. Raoh and Kaioh both end up making a woman being the motivation of their goals which under cuts the relationships they made with kenshiro and their overall goal for the land they wish to create
If you want to toss out everything that separates Raoh and Kaioh as characters, sure, you'd create a problem for yourself
>This is starting to sound like projection than an actual observation
Stop licking Araki's asshole, retard
>It's very much true when you unpack both series and you see how both have similarities but it's more through visual in general ideals instead of what's at the root of both
Not really and you couldn't explain why without coming across retarded using a poor argument
>It's not
>*stamps feet*
>*tells the jojo circus discord about it*

>Yoshikage "I would love to just murder women I don't like and get away with it" Kira
>character depth

>>>/v/717766302
How does /a/ do it? Even with all its flaws it still manages to maintain a level of quality far above the other media boards.

>>281354890
Some retard frequently makes stealth JoJo threads on /v/ because there's more activity there. It's probably the same anon.

>>281343718 (OP)
JoJo villains aren't complex. The major and a lot of minor villains just feel like actual characters and not just obstacles for the protagonist like in other anime. Plus, their display of evilness feels down-to-earth, even with cartoonish ones like Dio and Cioccolata

>>281348978
clams

>>281357496
moron

>>281343718 (OP)

Kira was an exception. Most Jojo villians are nothing to write home about

>>281358015
retard

>>281357905
I accept your concession

>>281358080
I am simply correctly labeling you what you are: a moron.

>>281358711
As I said earlier, I accept your concession

>>281359001
Cope however you like, but you're still a moron.

For example, the Pillar Men are not really characters, they are just props. They have traits, but only the most surface-level personalities. You would never guess that they’ve lived for hundreds of thousands of years. They have nothing like the perspective, emotions, thought processes, you’d think such beings would have, and are instead just arrogant battle shounen villains. Being ancient super-humans is just hype for the battle.

>>281359015
I'm not coping though. You're just making a concession again, and I accept it again. Don't worry, anon

>>281354559
the subtle simplicity makes him complex chud

Is Kira really that **complex** ("complex" is the word of the day!) simply because he's eccentric?

>>281359189
I am continuing to correctly label you what you are: a moron

>>281359413
I accept your concession again, anon-kun

>>281359498
You're a moron though so that doesn't say much

>>281359517
Okay, I accept your concession once more. I got you, anon-kun!

>>281359712
I'm happy to keep correctly labeling you an idiot.

>>281359758
And I'm happy to accept your concession once more

>>281359880
Cope however you like, you're still a moron with no argument.

>>281343830
Dio's 'complexity' is consistent throughout all of Part 1. He innately views himself as superior to everyone else, with a begrudging respect for Johnathan at the start (and at the end, that transforms into truly viewing him as an equal, and thus worthy of becoming his new body).
Dio is more 'complex' in Parts 3 and 6 by all accounts, where his actions are often imbued with more meaning and significance than is ever actually shared with the audience. The Hol Horse scene in particular is a standout one as it implies so much about his character without stopping to explain how Dio has changed.

But really, the 'complexity' of a villain is not significant and JoJo benefits from villains that tend to not linger on the details. The villains are representations of ideas, antithesis to the given protagonist.
Dio in Part 1 is selfish where Johnathan is selfless. A scoundrel against a gentleman. It's incredibly basic, but the narrative is, for all of JoJo, to be a celebration of humanity. Dio's literal rejection of humanity plays into that, that he would abandon it for his own pursuits, that he would lie and undercut people, even kill, just to advance himself. He does not care for humanity, whereas Johnathan pulls people from the slums and into his light.

Kars is an expansion on that. Kars is literally inhuman, but what sticks out in his final transformation is the lack of a need for sex- that is explicitly mention. How is Joseph written? As the most sexual JoJo in the franchise, and Part 4 reveals he literally could not contain his seed to one woman. He is humanity.
And so on and so on.
On complexity as well, consider these characters deeply. A good starter question is always 'Why did Dio do X' for anything in Part 3, or even 'Why is Kira in DMQ?', and let your mind wander, learn to wonder for a moment.

This will sound absurd, but JoJo is genuinely the manga equivalent to the bible. Not in the religious sense... someone will get it.

>>281354559
>>281349617
>>281348978
I haven't been in a JoJo thread for about five years, but when did 'complex' become a meaningless buzzword.
I genuinely cannot tell what complex is meant to mean in most of these posts, and it feels like the word is being tossed around in lieu of 'writing I like/prefer'.
>>281354793
I don't really get why you're so upset and so intent on comparing Hokuto no Ken to JoJo.
The only really comparable beats between the two are Part 1 and the first section of HnK (something that comes to mind is Part 1 literally quoting the reunion of Kenshiro and Shin, with both Johnathan and Kenshiro saying something to the effect of "I've returned from hell").
Beyond that, they're not really similar, and Hokuto no Ken isn't focused on complex villains. Hokuto no Ken is a story of archetypes, which, again, is fine.
It's Romance of the Three Kingdoms mixed with several kilos of Chinese/Japanese spirituality. Kenshiro is the pragmatic disciple with the supreme power who encounters conflict.
First is Shin, who reflects raw desire and twisted love, where the love Kenshiro has for Yuria is taken and Shin fails to grasp what made that love special.
The next is Jagi, a man who only feels hate- for Kenshiro. He seeks to become him, his own identity being forfeit in the face of the power Kenshiro holds (and in a stroke of genius, he rarely appears in flashbacks).
Strong love and strong hate give way to Raoh and Toki. Toki is the idealized figure who one thinks Kenshiro should be, but he is a temporary fixture, one to guide further growth but not to inherit everything.
Raoh is directly opposed to Kenshiro, and both men love Yuria more than anything. The power of might makes right vs the power to nurture life, no matter how weak.
And so on and so on. These are not traditionally complex characters, but they don't have to be. They are facets of a narrative that add value to the narrative journey.

>>281359298
Why is Kira tied up? He has that kind of fetish?

>>281360998
>and Part 4 reveals he literally could not contain his seed to one woman. He is humanity.
Infidelity is humanity?

>>281361299
>(and in a stroke of genius, he rarely appears in flashbacks).
Why is that a stoke of genius?

>>281347209
>>281347774
How would covid affect the writing of the villain? He still should have been able to have meetings with his editor, to discuss how his character should be handled.

>>281361604
Humanity is MAKING LOVE TO WOMEN.
>>281361709
Jagi made his own identity forfeit, thus, he has no identity to speak of in the narrative once he exits the story.
The Jagi spinoff recontextualized this in a really cool way, but even on its own it works. Of the four brothers of Hokuto, only Jagi was so weak in his ideals that he allowed himself to be subsumed by Kenshiro's identity and Raoh's strength. Toki, Raoh, and Kenshiro all maintained their pure individualism and drive, whereas Jagi is all reactionary or working with/for someone else.

>>281354890
He's a newfag nigger who has been shitting up the thread since he made it. Big surprise there, typical to JoJofags.