Thread 281573361

Does anyone else hate it when a fantasy series has an elemental powers system with 5 powers like in picrel instead of 4? I think fire, water, air and earth work well by themselves because of how each element is the opposite of another one, but lightning just breaks the symmetry.

naruto is such slop for toddlers

>>281573361 (OP)
Do away with lightning entirely or make it a "sub-element"?

>>281573437
Make it a subelement.

ATLA has one of the best power systems using elements but it's a cartoon so it's irrelevant to this board .

>lightning as fifth
nerd

>>281573361 (OP)
I really like the Wu Xing, with the dual cicle of generating and destroying elements. Naruto for some reason swapped metal with wood and wind with metal, wich makes the connection weird (especially lightning beating earth).

>>281573361 (OP)
I don't care because none of these "systems" matter. The writter will break their rules whenever they feel like.

>>281573361 (OP)
>>281573508
>only 5 elements

>>281573508
Metal is just earth but twice
Just how lightning is just fire but twice
The real fifth element is void

>>281573508
Why don’t Asians treat Wind as an element ? Wood and Metal are fine but far less important.

>>281573508
The Chinese were on to something by acknowledging wood and metal, but gettind rid of wind and keeping earth is dumb.

>>281573361 (OP)
>elemental powers
>not using hydrogen to nuke them

>>281573361 (OP)
>I rike my made up element system
>I disrike other's
>why dont you too? REEEEEEE

>>281573361 (OP)
Obviously this doesn't apply to video games themselves, but generally I hate any other work of fiction that gets too in the weeds with its gay little "systems" and tries to frame everything like it's a video game design document. Write something of worth first before you piss away everyone's time fantasizing about adaptations.

>>281573566
some do

>>281573561
>The real fifth element is void
In Hinduism we have
"क्षिति, जल, पावक, गगन, समीरा" in English translates to "Earth, water, fire, sky (or space), and wind." This phrase refers to the five fundamental elements that, according to ancient Indian philosophy, make up all of creation and the human body.
Here's a breakdown:
क्षिति (Kshiti): Earth or ground.
जल (Jal): Water.
पावक (Pavak): Fire.
गगन (Gagan): Sky or space.
समीरा (Sameera): Wind or air.

>>281573703
>In Hinduism we have
bait post

>>281573361 (OP)
I don't like when a fantasy series pretends to be limited to 4 elements, because then every slightly important character has their own super awesome magical secret demon version of an element and it becomes redundant.
Just make it random bullshit from the start.

>>281573703
Uh, buddy, everyone knows the elements in Indian culture are water, dirt, poop, waste plastic, and staring at people.

>>281573566
>Why don’t Asians treat Wind as an element ?
Because >>281573508 pic rel isn't actually China's nor Japan's equivalent of the four elements, it's another more abstract concept that westerners often confuse for it. >>281573669 pic rel on the other hand is an actual equivalent of the four elements in East Asia.

>>281573555
Naruto has combined elements too, such as Wood, Lava, Ice, etc. As well as Yin and Yang separate from the 5 elements.

I hate elemental weaknesses being so rigidly defined. It's stupid in anime, and only useful as a simplification for JRPGs. In a game you have to program all interactions in advance, so it has to be more limited. For example you could say water always beats fire. In anime you can make it more interesting by reasoning about new situations as you encounter them. For example you could compare the relative strengths of characters and conclude the fire of one really powerful character causes the water of another to evaporate. Reducing it to rock-paper-scissors shit is terrible, uncreative writing.

>>281574355
>As well as Yin and Yang separate from the 5 elements
Classic sign your power system is poorly thought out, when you need to have a separate category for all the bullshit that doesn't fit any other category.

>>281574355
legitimately one of the most retarded systems

>>281574355
>fire
>scorch
>blaze
>explosion

>>281573669
What is void supposed to represent?

>>281574630
ur gaping butthole lmao

>>281573669
wtf

>>281573555
>dark beats earth
huh?

>>281574579
>magnet doesn't involve earth
>freezing water is impossible unless you were born with a special bloodline
>earth jobs to lightning
>lightning negates bombs (which are earth + lightning)

>>281573566
>>281573598
The five phases aren't physical substances and shouldn't be considered the same as the Greek "elements." The names do not refer to physical substances but are symbols for something more abstract. "Wood" doesn't mean wood so much as the ability to grow like a plant. "Water" doesn't mean water so much as to the ability to flow and nourish.

Even the Greek elements aren't really supposed to be specific physical substances but refer to more abstract concepts, namely the two-by-two combo of hot vs cold and wet vs dry. "Water" doesn't mean water so much as "cold and wet."

>>281573361 (OP)
Lightning by itself is cool. Splitting earth between earth and grass/nature triggers my OCD more.

The worst is hunter hunter where it's ok 5 different types of powers but the 6th one can use as many powers from all categories

>>281573361 (OP)
Wouldn't lighting defeat water and lose to earth?

>>281573508
>>281573566
>>281573598
I did some reading on Chinese wikipedia. Apparently the modern theory is that the more abstract philosophical idea of wuxing probably came from an older and more practical engineering concept of wucai "five materials." where fire, water, wood, metal, and earth are the five kind of things ancient craftsmen would be working with. Because of that, the concept of a "wind" element ended up evolving separately and was treated as a different thing in ancient Chinese metaphysics.

>>281574747
>thing on top of thing???
>that's just like other thing!!!!!

>>281573566
Wind isn't real. What is wind? That's empty space, duh.

>>281573361 (OP)
4 elements + dark and light

>>281574630
The western equivalent would be 'ether'

>>281573361 (OP)
I'll make mine and add Light and Darkness so it can be 7.

>>281573703
Lots of jap and Chinese religion/culture take influence from Buddhism and India, I wouldn't be surprised if their elements were influenced by the saars

>>281577388
>>281573778
It's *ancient* *Mythology* we're talking about, not modern india you faggot /v/ tourist. It's part of chuunige, like using German names. obscure=cool. Rig Veda, Shiva, Gae Bolg.

>>281573555
This is a stupid fucking chart, because all that's actually there is two separate circular relationships with 4 elements in each circle. The two circles don't interact with each other in any way.

>>281574884
>>281577771
Not knowers
>>281575154
Based YGO chad

>>281573555
>>281573361 (OP)
>>281573508
>Air (includes electricity)
>Fire
>Earth (includes flora)
>Water (includes ice)
>Darkness
>Light
Bam, these are the six minimum if you're gonna do an element system thing, nothing really gets left behind this way
Although personally what I like best is
>Air
>Fire
>Earth
>Water
>Electricity
>Flora
>Flesh
>Darkness
>Light

>>281574645
savage

>>281579193
Wtf is flesh supposed to be

>>281579342
Vicissitude.

>>281573508
Wood as a fucking element sucks, and therefore China sucks

>>281573361 (OP)
Should Ice be separate from water?
Should lightning be separate from wind?
Thoughts, /a/?

>>281573387
Fuck off you fat reddit piece of human shit.

>>281579858
Ice is water + fire (beause you are taking away heat from the water to freeze it)
Lightning is water + wind

>>281574508
So the specialist category from HxH?

>>281573361 (OP)
The problem with elemental systems is its superficiality. The four elements of Aristotle were supposed to explain what's matter made of at the time, and the five chinese elements is supposed to be a universal template that explained codependance and was applicable to medecine, etc.....

>>281580901
Ice is obviously water + earth because you're turning a liquid into a solid

>>281582169
Water + earth is clearly mud

>>281582744
Never thought I'd see Ralph Azham posted on /a/.
However, in-universe that chart and everything about the four gods is made up propaganda.

>>281573508
>>281573566
>>281573598
>>281575477
It's just a matter of translation.
Instead of metal, it can also mean heaven and heaven is air, but also lightning because it comes from the heavens.

Let me guess, you need more?

>>281583110
>Strong Force
>Weak Force
Why are they called such ?

>>281573361 (OP)
>lightning beats earth
what? shouldn't it be the other way around?
earth beats lightning and lightning beats water

>>281574884
dark is literally anti-matter

>>281574355
>>281574579
>>281574889
Not canon

>>281583134
Because strong force so much more powerful than anything else to an absurd degree.
Weak force was discovered last and it works kinda like strong but, you know, weaker.

Also gravity is the weakeast force by far. That scary motherfucker in your fav fantasy anime using gravity/time magic? Even a basic weak force user is going to shit on her.

>>281583264
Except no range lmao

>>281583285
Obviously any real nigga weak/strong force mage is WAY too much of a chad to fling spells from a distance like a pussy.

>>281573555
>Only 8 elements

>>281583264
What does the weak force do if used by a weak force mage?

>>281583355
Yeah but when you have less than a femtometer range being good at fisticuffs probably isn't going to cut it.
>haha! my punch can tear off a single layer of skin molecules whenever it lands!
>just 10000 more hits and you're done for!
Though I guess you could split the atom relatively trivially, it'd just be a bit tricky to not take yourself out in the process doing that at point blank range.

>>281575042
What about splitting water and ice? I hate when writers do this

>>281581168
>>281574929
In a way the 4 elements can be seen as the states of matter

Earth=solid
Water=liquid
Air=gas
Fire=plasma

>>281579193
>Earth (includes flora)
Fuck no, anything that is alive should be light.

>>281573703
>Indian religion
>(k)shitti is a fundamental element
You can't make this shit up

>>281583997
majority of those aren't even elements at all, not even remotely.

>>281585531
t. sun cultist

>>281583156
anti-matter isn't dark though. it reflects light the same as posi-matter.

>>281582650
obviously the difference between mud magic and ice magic is the ratio of earth to water, clearly.

>>281580901
if you're taking heat away that's water - fire

>>281585189
In a physics sense ice is just frozen water, but for the purposes relevant to battle-focused magic systems it makes more sense to count ice as it's own thing, or at least partially (i.e. it technically counting as a derived or combined element of water, such as in Naruto's case). Kind of like lava doesn't work the same as normal earth stuff, even if it's technically molten earth. Ice and lava does not fit the same way in regards to properties, advantages and weaknesses, as their normal water and earth counterparts.

Fire
Water
Earth
Air
Ice
Lightning
Nature
Metal
Light
Darkness

10 is a good number.

>>281586167
Sun isn't a living being.

>>281586497
Actually one dozen is a better number and you can add Time and Space onto that list.

>>281586155
Who cares you fucking nerd. I cast nuke magic.

>>281586497
>Nature
"I cast Prion Disease"

>>281573437
>>281573461
Western always seems to put it under air since wind=>clouds=>storms=>lightning, with it rarely being put under fire in some weird circumstances. Which is why I think Lightning does work as its own because storms are both wind and water.

>>281586774
>Western always seems to put it under air
ATLA is one of the most popular western cartoons and lightning is seen as a subskill of fire bending in it.

>>281586318
I see, I'm probably focusing too much on the physics side of things. I even though that darkness could be a sub element of light since it's the absence of light but they are usually split for thematic purposes right?

>>281587163
read the rest of the fucking post befote you reply you tool

>>281573555
Capsule Monsters Colosseum detected
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUFtvjxj8to

>>281587634
Learn what "always" means you fucking ignoramus.

>>281583997
Holy fucking kek
>>281587783
Yes I love YGO spinoffs. I loved CMC I loved DDM gba, I loved the ps2 RPG battler. I could never get into YGO itself though.

>>281586553
I counter with cockroach magic.

>>281588072
Blast it!

>>281585327
Fire shouldn't be an element. Its a chemical reaction.

>>281585327
And also water opposes fire while earth opposes air. It's pretty cool yin yang shit.

>>281573361 (OP)
>>281574355
Lightning being strong against earth is so fucking retarded. Earth grounds electricity, how tf is it weak against lightning?

>>281590517
He make it so that Naruto wind affinity buff Sasuke fire. Basically, it’s fucking stupid because he is trying to force an elemental connection between the protag and his rival

>>281573361 (OP)
There's always going to special Mary Sue elements , might as well list them all flin the same chart

>>281573361 (OP)
It should be metal, wood, water, fire, and earth

>>281573549
If they didn't matter, the author wouldn't make them in the first place

>>281573361 (OP)
Maybe because the Chinese used something like Fire, Earth, Water, Wood and Gold.
I might be misremembering, but Asian countries seem to use five.

>>281586774
Fire and Lightning make some sense since fire (while not needing it) is associated with the Sun.
The Sun is plasma, the 4th state of matter which is super heated gas.
Lightning is plasma.
Since Fire is usually compared and/or associated with the sun, Fire links with Lightning in that reguard.

>>281582892
Based on how wuxing works and in its metaphysical associations, it’d make more sense to map Greek wind with Chinese wood. Chinese metal might actually map better with Greek earth and Chinese earth with Greek aether too.

>>281573361 (OP)
Fire, water, air, earth, life.

>>281585327
There are more phases of matter than just four. Also fire is not matter and doesn’t behave anything like a plasma.

>>281583110
"Strong force" and "weak force" are lame fucking names, these XX century cunts really have no fucking naming sense. I especially hate the latter, what a missed fucking opportunity to call it transmutation.

>>281573508
Wuxing are actions, not elements/matter.
Water is moistening and lowering.
Fire is inflaming and rising.
Wood is curving and extending.
Metal is clearing and shaping.
Earth is sowing and reaping.

>>281590517
It's because Earth draws in Lightning and they neutralize each other. Lightning is on the offense, so it's proactively winning out over Earth.

Greek elements are abstract attributes, related to Platonic ideas that matter derives from forms.
Fire is hot and dry
Water is cold and wet
Air is hot and wet
Earth is cold and dry

>>281593953
>bird defeats nuke
kek

>>281594380
https://www.umop.com/rps101/alloutcomes.htm
>Bird of peace prevents Nuke

>>281593218
>There are more phases of matter than just four.
Such as?

>>281573387
>sl*p
Found the zoomer xittertard.

>>281594642
Bose-Einstein condensate, Fermionic condensate, neutron degenerate, quark-gluon plasma

>>281593218
>fire is not matter
??

>>281595111
Show the class where fire is on this table.

>>281595164
>*burns table* w/ fire powah
>"There it is...heh, nothing personnel"

>>281596294
Grats you just caused a hydrogen explosion.

>>281584017
>What does the weak force do if used by a weak force mage?

Radioactive decay or something

>>281573361 (OP)
>gorillion fantasy powers
Lmao.
There are only 4 types of damage - fire, lighting, magic and physical

>>281574355
Everything here is right except for Blaze Release (Enton) being Fire + Lightning. That was never confirmed or suggested beyond Sasuke having both Lightning and Fire as his base elements plus Enton in both eyes. On the other hand, Itachi also has Amaterasu but not Lightning. Enton is probably Fire with Yin manipulation.

>>281573361 (OP)
Elements are in the eye of the beholder. Fire element, sun element, swamp element, water element, cold element, disease element, sword element, whatever.

>>281596964
GET OUT OF MY SWAMP !

>>281580974
HxH is one of the worst offenders of this
Togashi spent all that effort meticulously crafting a overly convoluted magic system only to make it all redundant by adding a catch-all category to cover everything that doesn't fit the defined magic system.

>>281574579
All of these are used one time by some filler arc OC donut steel. The crystal release bitch was the worst, but I dont see her shit on there

>>281573361 (OP)
>Wind
I hate this, it's not an element in anyway.

>>281593218
>>281588841
Fire contains (typically trace) amounts of plasma, which next to lightning makes it one of few natural examples of it on the Earth that isn't also some bullshit exclusively occurring in the atmosphere.
It's a perfectly fine example if you aren't a nitpicking faggot.

>>281574355
earth and wind should've been dust release, not fire-wind

>>281585189
There are cases where I understand this, like in Pokemon where there are a shitton of water Pokemon, so splitting water between ice and water it's fine there, but most of the time I prefer ice being a subset of water.

>>281596884
Earth and Wind should make Magnet Release, not Lightning and Wind.

>>281586497
Based Digimon Frontier chad.

>>281573561
Lightning is part of wood in the 8 trigrams

Stop wanking and focus on cultivation before its too late

>>281583110
Bet your ass we'll find out they're the same force. Gravity and electromagnetism look already super fucking linked.
Shove a terajoul into a chicken nugget and you'll see its mass increase mark my post.

>>281597435
I've got some amazing news for you anon, we already know as a matter of fact that electromagnetic and weak forces can be described as manifestations of the same electroweak force and that they actually merge together at 246 GeV. The next step is the unification of electroweak and strong forces into one electronuclear force under whatever theory that would become a Grand Unified Theory, and a unified description of all four fundamental forces being the holy grail of physics known as a theory of everything.

>>281575154
>wind and lightning being different elements
interesting choice

>>281597044
>>281574579
>>281583196

>Not canon
Actually they are all canon

>Scorch
Pakura is the user and she was one of the zombies in the war, she used the ability in the manga but she did have her own filler arc. She used scorch release in the war as a zombie.

>blaze
This is literally Sasuke's own thing he does with Amaterasu so It is canon. He combines his fire and lighting to shape his Amaterasu flames.

>Explosion
Also used in the manga by the Zombie named Gari, he also appeared in filler but he is canon.

>>281586497
>>281597349
These are the correct answers
You can have your base
>Fire
>Water
>Earth
>Air
You're second tier
>Ice
>Lightning
>Nature
>Metal
And your Angelic/Demonic whatever
>Light
>Darkness

Perfect balance, perfect symmetry

>>281573555
Wood is just an specialization from Nature/Bio (Flora), shouldn't be grouped with elements like Fire or Water and should only give bonuses to summoning, mind-affecting, de/buffing or healing/harming plants or plant creatures, Same with Fauna and Fungi. Good for classic classes like Rangers or Druids, but also for regular Farmers or Foresters. An Assassin would make use of Fauna (Humans) for example. Fire is effective damage against anything alive. But it's a hassle.

>>281586497
>10 is a good number.
12 is way better.

>>281598507
I don't like the way those particles gayly change their spin to emit some lalala, it seems faggy.
I will only hangout with Higgs-chan and protect her from nerds trying to make her dance like a normalfag particle. My BOSOMGF will not decay because of the mass i'll give her every night. Keep your electroweakness off my waifu.

>>281597435 Wrong the nugget would grow massless and become a FTL nugget.

Dinosaur King did it well imo. Simple, varied and the dinos asignated to each element were well-picked.

Is there any series that has universal elements instead like space, time, gravity, dark energy, magnetism etc

>>281599795
Black Clover, I guess? It has a lot of magic types, but all of them are derivates from the four basic elements (fire, earth, wind and water) in one way or another.

>>281573361 (OP)
Five elements is fine if the fifth isn't stupid, which lightning unfortunately is. Ice isn't much better, and metal is even worse>>281573508. Wood works as an element, though, as does light.

cat element

>>281584017
>using transmutation to change elements
It's literally just magical alchemy.

>>281573387
nope

>>281573361 (OP)
>>281573508
You do realize the vast majority of the world’s mythology have had the following elements as the standard?

Fire, Wind, Earth, Water, Aether/Void

Aether is an easy one to see as lightning, given its a symbol of the Heavens in most mythologies.

China is the only country that went with a special snowflake do not steal system by replacing wind and Aether with Wood and Metal.

>>281583134
Because in a lot of scientific fields names are created as temporary placeholders for when something is first guessed at and not fully understood. Think someone going "Hey everyone, I'm measuring some kind of force acting here, it's weaker than the other one though". But then the term gets used for so long that everyone gets used to it, and no one can be assed to change it. This even includes terms originally invented to mock an idea. For example the terms "Black Hole" and "Big Bang" were originally used to insult the theories of Gravitational Singularities and Universal Expansion. "What you think there's some big black hole everything's falling into? Get outta' here." or "You seriously expect me to believe there was just some big bang that threw out everything? Don't waste my time."

>>281592563
There's already a lot of discussion about wuxing in this thread

>>281593218
>>281594790
Is colloid a state of matter?

>>281595164
Periodic Table systems aren't featured enough.

>>281597109
What made Magi work was that the story actually fucking used all of the elements in creative ways. It got stupid towards the end because 'muh vectors' became the only relevant spell but everything got play across the series.

>>281583264
>That scary motherfucker in your fav fantasy anime using gravity/time magic? Even a basic weak force user is going to shit on her.
Why do you assume it's a her?

>>281599795
How's this idea?
Earth - matter
Water - time
Air - space
Fire - energy

>>281602930
>vampires with periodic table elemental powers
That's by Hiroki Endo right? Last time I checked I couldn't find any translations.

>>281601784
Chinese Wuxing predates Greek Platonic elements, so it didn't "replace" anything, it evolved completely independently. Also, while it is possible to map the systems onto each other because, coincidentally, both the ancient Chinese and ancient Greeks figured out a way to "derive" the elements from a binary system (see >>281593645 for the Greek derivation), the mapping is Greek Wind = Chinese Wood, Greek Earth = Chinese Metal, Greek Aether = Chinese Earth.

>>281573361 (OP)
Nah lightning is cool
Add light / dark (void) too
Combine metal and earth
Or you can make it more complex and separate base vs advanced elements
Ice, Lightning, Metal are "advanced" forms of water, fire, earth, etc