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Thread 281582675

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Anonymous No.281582675 >>281582765 >>281582775 >>281582805 >>281582831 >>281582875 >>281582908 >>281582935 >>281582979 >>281583116 >>281583167 >>281583598 >>281583650 >>281583732 >>281583778 >>281583926 >>281584002 >>281584004 >>281584024 >>281584183 >>281584796 >>281585380 >>281585942 >>281587105 >>281587526 >>281588257 >>281589029
When did isekai stop being about a mysterious world the protags stumble into and the end goal is to return home? It was the perfect formula, and each world felt unique.
Anonymous No.281582689 >>281583100 >>281583650
Because escapism and lower literacy level.
Anonymous No.281582765 >>281582839 >>281582874 >>281583130 >>281584358
>>281582675 (OP)
Seeing someone put into words what seemed to bother me the most about that particular, contemporary "brand" of story is nice to see. Often times when I'm bored and find some random isekai manga to read online I always find myself thinking "but what about the protagonists home and family?" and the narrative quickly scrubs that aspect under the rug.
Though said stories are a far removal from stuff like OP and is going for a different direction all together, so thinking that way when it comes to those works is a moot point.
Anonymous No.281582775
>>281582675 (OP)
it didn't, you're just new
Anonymous No.281582804 >>281583210
At this point you have to delineate between "being transported into another world" and "this is explicitly an escapist power fantasy". The term isekai only started gaining traction once the latter began to rise. There's plenty of stories that feature the former, the latter is its own industry.
Anonymous No.281582805
>>281582675 (OP)
When the idea of wanting to leave a fantasy world for the real one became more absurd than being sent to a fantasy world in the first place.
Or John Carter, who never wanted to return to Earth.
Anonymous No.281582831 >>281582954 >>281583205
>>281582675 (OP)
Kids have something to return to, adults don't.
Anonymous No.281582839
>>281582765
Well it's worse, it's not just that the plot point is thrown under the rug, but more that they write around it in the clumsiest way ever.
That's why we get so many truck-kun isekai introduction, or they'll just use the "well, MC was a loser and no one will miss him".
It defeats the purpose of writing it as an isekai, because why not just write some fantasy at this point if the whole "another world" part is forgotten after 1 chapter (unless MC needs to actually teach crop rotation or some shit to the retarded tier population).
Anonymous No.281582874 >>281584046
>>281582765
Once in a blue moon we get something like Sonny Boy and I guess more recently Zenshuu would fit too. Turkey from this season scratches the itch too but most folks don't consider time travelling to be isekai. Anime original isekai still follow the classic formula for the most part but yeah, they get buried by the web/light novel variant.
Anonymous No.281582875 >>281582896
>>281582675 (OP)
>end goal is to return home
This is a retarded meme that you're regurgitating.
Anonymous No.281582896 >>281582951
>>281582875
The protagonist growing from the experience and returning home as a better person will never be retarded, you're just extremely jaded.
Anonymous No.281582908
>>281582675 (OP)
the real world got worse
Anonymous No.281582935
>>281582675 (OP)
Tsukimichi's MC has that goal even though he's a successful nation builder in his isekai
Anonymous No.281582937
I mean, it makes sense if they can return, but most Isekai nowadays feature a protag that literally died in their original world
Anonymous No.281582951 >>281582960 >>281583089
>>281582896
Just like Alice in Wonderland where Alice wanders around and returns by accident having learned nothing at all?
Or The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe where the kids stick around for decades as fantasy world royalty until Aslan kicks them out and they regress back?
Anonymous No.281582954
>>281582831
Do they. Aren't they all depressed and suicidal nowadays?
Anonymous No.281582960 >>281583129
>>281582951
What are you tying to say here?
Anonymous No.281582979 >>281582997
>>281582675 (OP)
I honestly don't get the appeal.
I have atleast 2 guys at work who unironically love this shit and actively look out for a new one each season.
Anonymous No.281582997
>>281582979
Do they travel a lot? Same vibe.
Anonymous No.281583063
somebody post that meme picture where some short stunted nip isekai hero named yamada can either stay in isekai land, where he gets bitches and lolis and princesses, or go back home, where they show him having become an overworked unhappy virgin sarariman who is abused by his superior.
Anonymous No.281583076
If there's a hint of MC trying to go home, I drop the series
Anonymous No.281583089 >>281583106 >>281585933
>>281582951
No, like Wizard of Oz, where the protagonist goes on an epic adventure with weird friends and faces the forces of evil all for the chance to go home. Or the comic Birthright, where the protagonist manages to get home from the other world, but as an adult, only to find that he doesn't fit in there anymore.
Anonymous No.281583100
>>281582689
Isekai is about the pioneering spirit.
Anonymous No.281583106
>>281583089
Japs prefer Alice in Wonderland over Wizard of Oz.
Anonymous No.281583116
>>281582675 (OP)
Leaving world of magic and fantasy friends is not so easy anymore.
Anonymous No.281583129
>>281582960
"Isekai" stories never really fit your ideal, so it's irrelevant that modern ones don't.
Anonymous No.281583130 >>281583220
>>281582765
I mean increasingly how much does that really matter to you
Are you going to give up the life of your dreams to go back to wageslaving?
Your boomer parents and boss will just have to suck it
Anonymous No.281583154
Doesn't Dorothy stay in Oz in the sequels anyway? Which again proves that even Americans back then knew that fantasy world with magic princesses >>>>> real world.
Then again, it was Kansas.
Anonymous No.281583167 >>281583840
>>281582675 (OP)
That's a difference between works for children and manchildren. Children often fantasize about magical worlds they adventure in (just last week I talked with my niece about the fairy school she attends at nights when "her wings grow"), but they have the whole real life ahead of them. That's what these stories represent, play-pretend is fun, but you must always return to reality. But that's not how your typical otaku fantasize, they believe they either failed at real life or real life was not for them to begin with. So they do not want to be reminded of it. Essentially, escapism is their whole life at this point.
Anonymous No.281583205 >>281583505
>>281582831
Gaining incredible power from being isekaied should make you super eager to go back so you can mold the earth to your will
Anonymous No.281583210
>>281582804
Yeah, basically this. Despite the name, the modern day genre we call "isekai" is much more specific than just the singular plot beat of being transported from the modern world.
Anonymous No.281583213
Mind you, in Digimon, the magic of the awesome adventurous supernatural digital world fuses with the real mundane boring irrelevant world, so home is improved, and the status quo is destroyed.
Anonymous No.281583220
>>281583130
What? This is a strange way to interpret what was said as if it's real. I'm talking about the writing/narrative of these types of stories, not projecting my real life personal grievances.
Anonymous No.281583225
>old good, new bad
cringe
Anonymous No.281583505
>>281583205
>coming this this fantasy land gave me incredible power
>I should return to my world where it's unlikely to work
What the fuck?
Anonymous No.281583598 >>281583615
>>281582675 (OP)
What if you came to land of incredible opportunity and made something of yourself and then just returned to you shitty third world country?
Anonymous No.281583615
>>281583598
A closer analogy would be if you were a victim of human trafficking.
Anonymous No.281583650 >>281583897 >>281584467 >>281585247
>>281582675 (OP)
>It was the perfect formula
>>281582689
>Because escapism and lower literacy level.
It's hilarious to watch retards pretend that their fiction is somehow less an escape from reality than others. The word escapism exists for the sole purpose of making it seems like works they designate as "non-escapism fiction" are somehow not an escape from reality but some kind of "higher-tier recreational activity to expand one's mind and worldview" or so they tell themselves.
Sorry to break it to you, but the only fiction that isn't an immersed escape from reality are literal unironic case studies for education and exam purposes. Everything else, including so-called "high-literature" is about immersing yourself in a fictional world, aka. an escape from reality. This pathetic attempt to try to rewrite what the "different levels" of escaping reality are is just sad. If anything does that, it's the level of immersion, meaning good and/or empathic writing immerses you more, i.e. makes you escape reality stronger than shitty writing where you notice inconsistencies every few seconds that take you out of it.
Trying to ignore that and just pretend that escaping reality is based on some vague abstract concept of "escapism" that somehow tries to reverse this dynamic and pretend that (supposedly) low-quality works are actually "more escapist" is utterly ridiculous and you should feel ashamed about it, especially since it almost entirely relies on talking about some other unrelated group to you. The ones who come up with that bullshit never are the supposed escapists themselves (closer to jailers actually), it's always some group talking about "those other guys consuming low-quality fiction" out there they have no relations to. Again, for the sole purpose of making themselves feel better about the fiction they themselves consume by trying to put down others.
Anonymous No.281583732
>>281582675 (OP)
Because most modern isekai was made from the start, to be about being an isekai story. Digimon isn't about the idea of isekai, it's about the idea that the internet created another world, that we see from the pov of children growing up.

As for if the protagonists should try to return home, it depends on the story and setup. Some stories are about people learning and growing before returning to their life, typically children going on an adventure. Some stories I would equate more to moving to a foreign nation and getting used to living there.
Anonymous No.281583778 >>281584066 >>281584080
>>281582675 (OP)
when everyone realized you can use isekai as a way to skip tons of writing
Its just modern you
In fantasy world
Bam 10 million sold
Anonymous No.281583832 >>281584704 >>281584869
It makes the MC automatically relatable without having to put in any effort into his character
You dont have to write about his family, his origins, the new world culture, how it all fits and makes sense
You just walk into a portal into Dragon Quest 3, any questions? No of course not because you already know all the tropes, all the motifs, how the DQ towns monsters etc work its all the same, there is no need to explain anything, the only question is how many girls will the MC have sex with before its over.
Isekai helps the writers keep up with the demand and it helps the readers get to the point faster, we are long stopped pretending any of these works have artistic value, and thats ok, this is entertainment and nothing else. Why waste time with world building that the reader doesnt even want anyways
This was my Isekai rant. I dont even hate the genre.
Anonymous No.281583840 >>281583897 >>281583920 >>281585358
>>281583167
>real life was not for them to begin with
Real life is shit for everyone (including (you)) except the 1% of turbo normgroids/ultra rich, "escapism" was invented long before Asian cartoons and it is naive to think that adults are somehow better than children/otaku because they prefer its more severe forms (drugs/sex/food/etc).
That's why art exists in the broad sense of the word, glorified escapism. And it's wonderful, and it's the best thing in the world
Anonymous No.281583897 >>281584121 >>281584835
>>281583840
>>281583650
You are absolutely full of shit.
There are degrees of escapism.
50s american cartoons were about showcasing animation thats why it has so many characters dancing and deforming their bodies with slapstick all the time, you appreciated the effort and imagination that went into it. The escapism element was 0%.
Then with stories many of them regarded as great will be about learning something, they dont need a lesson at the end but rather you see the characters act in realistic ways and you learn from them, that made stories interesting.
Then came manchildren media which is pure escapism with nothing of substance, it can be fun dont get me wrong but there is nothing to it, you are just seeing these anime girls that dont behave like people prance around and masturbating to your favorites. Not all anime is this yet luckily though.
But to imply all animation is escapism so shut up is just cope.
Anonymous No.281583920 >>281584162
>>281583840
The thing is, most people don't think like you do. Escapism is a break. That's what the "return to the real world" trope is about. As opposed to making it the end-goal, like what is a trend in the otaku-driven media. You may believe their wrong for not embracing the fantasy like you do, but the point stands that there's a major philosophical divide here.
Anonymous No.281583926 >>281583972
>>281582675 (OP)
>this cool fantasy world is GAY and RETARDED I just wanna go back home and pay taxes
yeah it was retarded
Anonymous No.281583953
I think all isekai should be about wanting to go back BUT also bring back a wife
Anonymous No.281583972 >>281583985
>>281583926
In a fantasy world youd just get mugged and killed within 5 minutes, no catgirl will come to greet you
Anonymous No.281583985
>>281583972
obviously talking about the ones that aren't shitholes
the mc wouldn't be trying to stay in the ones that are
Anonymous No.281584002
>>281582675 (OP)
Yes
Anonymous No.281584004
>>281582675 (OP)
>When did isekai stop being about a mysterious world the protags stumble into and the end goal is to return home? I
The goal of returning home isn't strictly necessary but it's sad to see just how underused it has become. The worlds no longer being a mysterious and interesting place to learn about is indeed the big pล•oblem with the genre though

Issue is that the new focus is all about the power fantasy of giving the self-insert MC everything you'd want: power and bitches, making those the selling points and turning world building a secondary focus at best. Part of it it writers going for east, low hanging fruit to please the slop-eating masses, but to be completely fair, it doesn't help that current day japanese society leaves little prospects for people to find joy in real life, so I can't entirely blame them for the escapism.
Anonymous No.281584024 >>281584046
>>281582675 (OP)
but that still exists
Anonymous No.281584046
>>281584024
>>281582874
Anonymous No.281584066 >>281584080
>>281583778
>Bam 10 million sold
Lifetime sales suggests that even with LN+manga combined most isekai struggle to get anywhere near that figure. Only 7 isekai managed that so far, from top to bottom:
Reincarnated as Slime (45M),
Mushoku Tensei (14.85M),
Overlord (14M),
Shield Hero (13M),
Re:Zero (13M),
Bookworm (11M) and
Konosuba (10M).
>Its just modern you
>In fantasy world
Doesn't apply to any of these. The first actual ""generic"" isekai in the top list would be something like Isekai Smartphone at 3M (which is sort of inflated because of having like 30+ LN volumes by now). It's not as easy as you make it out to be.
Anonymous No.281584080
>>281583778
>>281584066
Forgot pic.
Anonymous No.281584121 >>281584156
>>281583897
>There are degrees of escapism
Everything that is not literally schizophrenia/hallucination trip is the same
>The escapism element was 0%
Wrong
>will be about learning something
>the characters act in realistic ways and you learn from them
Besides the fact that they don't, and the media shouldn't (and can't) teach anything, watch Naruto or whatever old shonen about muh friendship/love/duty/perseverance, are you sure you're talking about anime?
>with nothing of substance
Modern stories actually try to be more down to earth, make allusions to reality and raise more adult themes, you're illiterate
>But to imply all animation is escapism so shut up is just cope
Yes, all fiction ever invented by man is escapism
Anonymous No.281584156 >>281584178
>>281584121
>wrong
You are an idiot, no point discussing further.
Anonymous No.281584162 >>281584243
>>281583920
>most people don't think like you do. Escapism is a break
They do, they just don't like to realize it and resort to its socially approved forms without considering them as such
Anonymous No.281584178
>>281584156
Uhm... No!
I accept your concession
Anonymous No.281584183
>>281582675 (OP)
When bubblefags became irrelevant
Anonymous No.281584243 >>281585717
>>281584162
You're trying to twist the meaning of words to validate yourself. Which only goes to show that in your heart of hearts you concede they're right.
Anonymous No.281584358 >>281584497
>>281582765
>but what about the protagonists home and family?
I always wonder whether this kind of complain is an autism thing or are normalfags really this incapable of fathoming the idea that some people's lives are shit.
The narrative is not shrugging off that aspect under the rug, the whole point is that they don't have a reason to go back. It is not that hard to get.
Anonymous No.281584467 >>281585166
>>281583650
>the only fiction that isn't an immersed escape from reality are literal unironic case studies for education and exam purposes. Everything else, including so-called "high-literature" is about immersing yourself in a fictional world, aka. an escape from reality.
The entire saga of the Rougon-Macquarts wants a word with you
Anonymous No.281584497 >>281584541 >>281584569
>>281584358
But even if that were the case you'd need to taunt the protagonist with the option to come back and then have him reach an epiphany where he realizes he doesn't give a fuck afyer all and chooses to stay.
If you don't your mc is a blank slate more than a person.
Anonymous No.281584541
>>281584497
>unless you do an incredibly specific thing that makes no sense in the majority of relevant stories (as the MC has literally died in their previous world), the MC has no personality
How do you rationalise this?
Anonymous No.281584569 >>281584822 >>281585724
>>281584497
Not really because there is nothing to consider. A salaryman with no friends or family bleeding on the roadside has no reason to want to go back to his world.
Anonymous No.281584704 >>281584758
>>281583832
>there is no need to explain anything
and yet most writers feel the need to fill their pages explaining their generic bland vidya fantasy plots and systems as though the reader hasn't seen it for the 300th time or couldn't come up with something more original in about 10 seconds (which is what spurs an endless stream of narou writers to try)
The advantage of the setting is not that it removes the need to explain things, it's that it requires no creativity or talent. It's the written equivalent of connect-the-dots or coloring pictures.
Anonymous No.281584758
>>281584704
There is no need to explain anything, writers can focus on whatever tickles their fancy.
Anonymous No.281584796 >>281584902
>>281582675 (OP)
i feel like these threads just exist to make ad hominem cheap shots than actually talk about good narratives.

There's plenty of isekai where the Mc wants to go home and it didn't make the series less boring or the antag less a Gary stu.
Anonymous No.281584822 >>281584985 >>281586836 >>281587584
>>281584569
Most salarymen have friends and family and the bleeding out on the roadside thing is a copout specifically designed to avoid having to address this issue.
Anonymous No.281584835 >>281585247
>>281583897
You didn't even address anything I said but rather just doubled down on the "higher-tier recreational activity to expand one's mind and worldview" which is just a convenient way to reframe the issue to your advantage.
But the problem is that it puts the author in an intrinsically higher position than the audience. It's a bad framing because it portrays the audience as retards that are just meant to slurp up and let themselves be influenced by whatever the author dishes out.
This becomes apparent as a flawed framing when you consider how authors often include ideological/political propaganda in their fiction and use it to try to manipulate the audience to their own ideological worldview via a "lesson" in fiction. So you need to critically assess the contents, but if they have such hostile intent of manipulating the audience then these so-called "lessons" are a net-negative putting them below the so-called ""escapism"", so "having life-lessons" in it doesn't intrinsically make fiction superior to others.
What people get out of fiction is ultimately an audience-side thing, whether you just slurp up the contents or think critically about it is up to the audience, not the author, so the very idea that a writer is the one to "induce escapism" (the way you define it) is simply bullshit, they can only steer the ship in terms of preventing internal inconsistencies that take you out of the story or try to make it as empathic to as large an audience as possible, but they can't actually control the mindset of the audience.

What's really rich with accusations against isekai is that the self-proclaimed "non-audience" claims to know best how the supposed "actual escapist" audience ""surely"" think when reading/watching isekai. Where does that confidence come from?
My earlier post gave an explanation for that. Yours doesn't and your argument is even a level below that "non-audience" I mentioned as you don't even acknowledge the audience as a participant in this.
Anonymous No.281584869 >>281585091
>>281583832
>we are long stopped pretending any of these works have artistic value, and thats ok, this is entertainment and nothing else
My big question is why does anyone even bother reading/watching this genre then? It's so fucking formulaic, do you not get bored?
Anonymous No.281584902 >>281584925 >>281585033
>>281584796
No, they exist for normalfags to complain about nips not writing hollywoodslop.
Anonymous No.281584925 >>281585033 >>281585053
>>281584902
>the only fictional works created nowadays are my narou isekai garbage or... le hollywoodslop!
isekaifag IQ strikes again
Anonymous No.281584985 >>281585103 >>281585724
>>281584822
>Most salarymen have friends and family
Statistically speaking, most of the adult working population doesn't. Japanese salaryman specially have it pretty rough when it comes to forming bonds outside of the office. The ones this genre caters to in particular usually have the most soulless of nip office jobs.
Anonymous No.281585033
>>281584902
>>281584925
ad. hominem. cheapshots.

way i sees it, a gary stu that wants to go home is still a gary stu and the series is still "a-ha look at the gary stu go" slop

meanwhile a world that's actually mysterious and the MC actually has to learn about it through exploration (and not just ask about it in his nearest adventure guild), would be interesting whether MC wants to go home or not
Anonymous No.281585053
>>281584925
>nooo why aren't they completing the hero journey waaah
Hollywoodslop is exactly what they are asking for
Anonymous No.281585091 >>281585358
>>281584869
Some people are capable of enjoying things. I'm sorry that you aren't one of them, but that's no reason to pretend they don't exist.
Anonymous No.281585103 >>281585110
>>281584985
>Japanese people are born from eggs that spontaneously erupt from the soil
>they are raised by the state
Anonymous No.281585110 >>281585297
>>281585103
Japanese people aren't being born yes
Anonymous No.281585166
>>281584467
I don't know anything about frog literature other than Count of Monte Christo, but after looking it up a bit what you mention sounds like it might barely fall under the "educational case studies" exception but I am not entirely sure as I have not read it and most certainly never will.
Anonymous No.281585247 >>281585683
>>281583650
>>281584835
LN Isekai has zero purpose beyond providing vicarious fantasies about getting women and being the strongest, there is no way to "think critically about it", it is purpose-made to be "slurped up" and that's why it's rightfully looked down on by many as worthless "escapism" that is lower quality. That's what the first post meant, you're typing paragraphs of meaningless bullshit answering nobody
Anonymous No.281585297 >>281585358 >>281585366 >>281585434
>>281585110
Not only are Japanese people still being born now, they were also still being born at the same time as and before the isekai protagonist was. Not having a wife =/= not having parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and maybe even grandparents.
You can acknowledge that the social situation is bad without having to twist yourself in knots pretending that it's normal to be a friendless, unadopted orphan.
Anonymous No.281585358 >>281585660
>>281585091
>why do you enjoy repetitive formulaic crap?
>b-because we just do! stop pretending we don't exist!
I never said I did, but I wish I could pretend you tasteless retards didn't exist

>>281585297
Isekaifags genuinely think that 99% of men are friendless spergs like themselves (>>281583840)
Anonymous No.281585366
>>281585297
Anon, having a bloodline and having a family are not the same. You don't need to be an orphan to not have a family.
Anonymous No.281585380 >>281585482
>>281582675 (OP)
I miss digimon
Anonymous No.281585434 >>281585582
>>281585297
Isekai protagonists get a life that's massively better than almost everyone. You don't need to be a depressed loser for a fantasy world where you're a hero with super powers to be a clear improvement.
Anonymous No.281585482
>>281585380
ghost game was nice, wish it aired in place of the adventure reboot instead.
Anonymous No.281585582 >>281585642
>>281585434
Right, and all of this is very different from leaving behind literally nothing, which almost no one would if they got isekai'd. That's what I've been arguing against, not that getting isekai'd wouldn't be an improvement for most people.
Anonymous No.281585642 >>281585724
>>281585582
Why is that what you're arguing against? Why is that at all relevant? What is you're point at all?
Anonymous No.281585660
>>281585358
You are a pathetic person who lies on the internet on an anonymous forum where no one cares
Anonymous No.281585683 >>281585738
>>281585247
Yet you are wrong. You feel the need to group-up "isekai" into one monolith. You might use isekai that are actually bad as a strawman, such as Isekai Smartphone or Isekai Cheat Magician that no one actually likes, portraying them as "isekai representatives", or worse, not even rely on such strawmen but just rely on some strange nebulous and abstract "generic isekai" concept that doesn't actually exist that you keep referring to while using retarded excuses like "ugh, they all blend together in my mind so I can't think of any individual works" when asked to give concrete examples that are actually representatives of isekai as a whole.
That's the easiest way to put something down, just group up and dismiss. And speaking of critical thinking, that certainly doesn't require any of that compared to actually arguing about individual series and why they might or might not have any value in terms of critical thinking.
This happens every time by the way. I have seen ZERO exceptions to this so far. Will you be the first to actually stand his ground?
Anonymous No.281585717
>>281584243
You're trying to isolate yourself from a group you're a part of, probably not the best one
Anonymous No.281585724 >>281585808
>>281585642
>>281584569
>>281584985
Anonymous No.281585738 >>281585848
>>281585683
Isekai Smartphone is not even that bad. It became a meme for its title, not its lack of quality.
Anonymous No.281585808 >>281586200
>>281585724
I still don't see your point. A guy with nothing to live for at all might be an unusual exaggeration, but if you accept that their isekai life is a massive improvement, what's the difference? And that again ignores most of them being dead and literally not having a life to return to.
Anonymous No.281585848
>>281585738
After a certain point it just starts cycling through shitty 2000s rom-com/battle-harem/slap-stick-comedy clichรฉs over and over again, at least the WN did, so I had to drop it once it got to the mecha part. There's a tendency with isekai that the more reliant on 2000s clichรฉs it is, the worse and more boring it tends to be because they keep being cycled throughout the whole story, while 2010s own isekai clichรฉs are one-and-done deals that you usually can't recycle for easy content, only for a jumpstart at most to buy some time, so isekai naturally have to be carried by the authors themselves after the beginning and that filters out the actual boring stuff much easier for the audience, leaving only the stuff that actually captivated some kind of audience, which unlike most other (sub-)genres/settings can lead to audiences that vary greatly between individual works.
Anonymous No.281585919 >>281586074 >>281586165
when isekai as a genre really blew up in popularity around the 2010s I never once thought of Digimon as one, it took a rewatch for it to really sink in. I really think OP's point is why, "isekai" as a genre feels like it's just an excuse to take a normal dork and make them a superhero in some fantasy world. Something like digimon has a clear goal of getting the fuck out of here and returning to your normal dork life.
Anonymous No.281585933
>>281583089
Dorothy moves into Oz in one of the later books though?
She even gets a weird pseudo-romance with Ozma.
Anonymous No.281585942
>>281582675 (OP)
when zero no tsukaima became super popular and moved a shitload of waifuslop merch
Anonymous No.281586074 >>281586292
>>281585919
>why, "isekai" as a genre feels like it's just an excuse to take a normal dork and make them a superhero in some fantasy world
Because it's a simple premise that uses established devices and allows an author to easily handwave shit. World building can be as familiar (or not) as you like, and the main character can be as much of a bland modern audience surrogate everyman as they like. It Just Werks. This isn't complicated.
Anonymous No.281586093
Isekai is just anime heaven for people who don't believe in god. Which is why it has been trending for a while now when a big part of Japanese population are struggling with their life.
Anonymous No.281586165
>>281585919
Anonymous No.281586200 >>281586246
>>281585808
>what's the difference?
If you can't see the differences between leaving behind loved ones vs having no one on your own, then there's no way I could convince you.
>ignores most of them being dead
I didn't ignore it. I specifically addressed it as the narrative convenience that it is.
Anonymous No.281586246 >>281586836
>>281586200
>I specifically addressed it
Where?
>narrative convenience
Why is that an issue? Should authors inconvenience themselves for no reason?
Anonymous No.281586292 >>281586348 >>281586365
>>281586074
Which you run out of after like half a LN volume. Now what, anon?
Anonymous No.281586348 >>281586669
>>281586292
What? It's establishing the start of the story. You can't "run out" of the start of the story. What are you trying to say?
Anonymous No.281586365 >>281586856
>>281586292
either you won the pulp fiction lotto and got enough readers that you can just fill tye pages with whatever so long as it feels lile the MC is making progress, or the book was a flop and you just write a bunch more pilot novellas until you do get lucky.
Anonymous No.281586669 >>281587300 >>281587584
>>281586348
It's just a springboard. You can only "world-build" so much using established methods until you run out of concept or have to diverge to not just be a copy and what might seem superficially similar at first can end up very different later.
Take Overlord, Tsukimichi and Slime for example. They all have quite a few notable similarities at first in terms of world building, such as starting in some outskirts area, upon setting out first finding a troubled small village and/or a troubled individual from a small village first and helping them resolve their problems which sooner or later leads to them becoming part of the MC's domain. The first major town they arrive at is established as a central element in the story, either as becoming part of the MC's domain or at least a place of very important allies that stick with the MC all the way. Now that I think about it, Myhnogra also kinda fits into that initial mold with the migrating dark elf refugees basically being like a moving village and the first big town the cast reaches being a fortress city of allies. You see, there are a lot of conceptual similarities here in terms of world-building. The MC's faction also tends to be seen as evil and/or monsters. On a surface level one might dismiss that as "lazy writing" to just establish the initial idea.
But is it really like that? The further you go the more it becomes evident that they are actually completely different, not only in terms of world-building but also in terms of storyline, characters and how the MCs are portrayed. The MCs tend to be anti-heroes or anti-villains, but ultimately their concepts, what they are about, is completely different. Anyone who actually read or even just watched them would agree that they are distinct from each other.
Anonymous No.281586836 >>281587124 >>281587584
>>281586246
>Where?
>>281584822
>Why is that an issue?
>for no reason
Mindlessly restorting to a lazy, cookie cutter method of not having to deal with any downsides of being whisked away to another world is shit writing. First of all, it draws into question why it's even an isekai story to begin with if everything about their previous life gets cut off right at the start. And it also produces less interesting characters and stories. Even if the protagonist decides to stay, the fact that it's a choice at all makes them more of an actual character with agency and an internal conflict of desires. It also allows for lazier writing down the line since the protagonist staying never has to be justified; they have no choice.
This is not to say that stories where an isekai'd person can't go back are inherently bad. But good executions of that idea will never come from a creatively bankrupt LN hack regurgitating what a thousand other LN hacks have already done before him.
Anonymous No.281586856 >>281587256
>>281586365
That's retarded because that applies to all fiction, not just to "pulp fiction". You can write some ""objectively irrefutable masterpiece fiction of the millennium"" about libertarian concepts yet because of shitty marketing and current trends (woke vs normal) it ends up as a flop while it could be the most sold book of the world if only it released 10 years earlier or later with better marketing.
Anonymous No.281587105 >>281587193
>>281582675 (OP)
It used to be about kids going on fantastical adventures only to realize they miss their families and return home after coming of age. Now it's about maladjusted adults who want to run away from life.
Anonymous No.281587124 >>281587633
>>281586836
NTA, but you are just binding the meta-utilitarian usage of the isekai setting to your own made-up worst case scenario of how it's implemented concretely in the story (beginning to end) to make your argument.
It is a hook that stays there but due to its multiversal scale it's something that makes little sense to really get into early on since making the audience used to that scale too early will make any local or even country-scale conflicts look silly, meaning addressing the isekai aspect is usually a long-term plotpoint that often only gets addressed towards late-middle or even the end of the story. You don't have any compelling reasons to overly focus on it early.
Anonymous No.281587193
>>281587105
Anon, JP media or perhaps media in general have WAY too much coming-of-age stories to the point they are always boring now when I see them with very few exceptions. It's such a massive amount infact, that there could be 10x more isekai and the concept of isekai would still feel "fresh" relatively to coming-of-age stories every time.
Anonymous No.281587256 >>281587601
>>281586856
that sentiment is irrelevent to the conversation at hand
Anonymous No.281587300
>>281586669
It is always worth remembering that most people complaining about isekai don't actually read or watch any isekai. Their only exposure to the genre is scrolling past them in seasonal charts or hearing ecelebs talk about them.
Anonymous No.281587526
>>281582675 (OP)
given that the term "isekai" only appeared when there was a flood of "i died to a 1v1 with a tokyo pickup truck in the real world but now reborn in a steampunk mmojrpg my S+ accounting skills have made me a level 999 clockmage that cannot be defeated!~" i think it would be unfair to retroactively make soulful works like digimon adventure part of it.
Anonymous No.281587584 >>281587685 >>281588412
>>281586669
>It's just a springboard
Yes? That's my point. It's just a convenient way to start the story. I'm trying to work out why that's a problem. It doesn't sound like you think it is, so you probably can't help me.
>>281586836
>>281584822 doesn't address the issue at all. You just said it's badwrong fun.
As for your actual elaboration: bullshit. Of course shitty writers won't produce good writing. That's the writer's fault, not the genre. Yes it "allows" them to be lazier. That's what a convenience is. It allows them to ignore shit they don't care about. Every writer does that.
Not making the entire story about some conflict between worlds doesn't make the MC a nonentity. It just makes it not a story about choosing between two worlds. The same way LotR isn't a story about tax policy. The only problem is your incredibly narrow vision of what a story ought to be about.
Anonymous No.281587601 >>281587807
>>281587256
You reduced isekai to just being about "chasing that lucky break to become popular" with the implication that it supposedly having "low quality" means that it can only rely on pure luck to be successful, while "high quality" works can get by their quality alone. I refuted that very easily by showing that so-called "quality" doesn't carry fiction, as such so-called "high-quality" works likewise flop if they don't reach their intended audience with the right medium at the right time, so they are ultimately not different from the so-called "pulp fiction" in that regard, refuting your entire post. So yes, it is very much relevant to the conversation at hand.
Anonymous No.281587633 >>281587793
>>281587124
You can reveal multiple universes later on without having your protagonist get hit by a car in the first chapter. That's not why that trope exists. It exists because the author and their audience hate their lives and would rather live in a generic fantasy world. But they know that sounds bad so they make it accidental and irreversible. And most of them couldn't conjure an original thought if their life depended on it, so they ape other slop they've read and make it reincarnation via automobile.
Anonymous No.281587685
>>281587584
>Yes? That's my point. It's just a convenient way to start the story. I'm trying to work out why that's a problem. It doesn't sound like you think it is, so you probably can't help me.
Seems like I misread your post then, sorry about that. Glad we got the same view on this. It's difficult to keep track of who is who with what viewpoint in these discussions at times.
Anonymous No.281587793
>>281587633
>That's not why that trope exists. It exists because the author and their audience hate their lives and would rather live in a generic fantasy world
Oh look, anon the arm-chair psychoanalytic expert schools us on how authors and audiences of works he doesn't read/watch himself behave exactly and irrefutably!
Truly how can we isekaifags ever recover against such objectively undeniable majesty?!
Anonymous No.281587807 >>281588002
>>281587601
you imagined a bunch of points I didn't make and then replied to those points while ignoring everything else
Anonymous No.281588002
>>281587807
Your post didn't leave much else to imagine. If that's not your point than what is? If you can't actually make your case in a way others understand, perhaps it's because the way you presented it was too vague and ambiguous.
Anonymous No.281588257
>>281582675 (OP)
Too difficult, for every Twelve Kingdoms, Here and there Then and now, or Ascendance of a Bookworm with relatively decent world building and writing there's dozens more escapist power fantasies, but this is normal.

Remember Sturgeon's law, 90% of every genre is crap, and only the good stuff floats to the top, but that doesn't mean the bad stuff is terrible. It can be fun to sift through the garbage in the Isekai genre and find ideas, characters, tangents and tropes which separate it from others. The good thing about slop is because a lot of it tastes the same, you can get to the meat of it quite fast.
Anonymous No.281588412 >>281588505 >>281588909
>>281587584
>That's the writer's fault, not the genre.
If a genre winds up being almost exclusively garbage then there is clearly something wrong with it. Either its conventions prime people to write trash. Or they attract people who write trash. In the case of naroukei, it appears to be both.
>It allows them to ignore shit they don't care about. Every writer does that.
Do you frequently pretend things are black and white that you know aren't? A sci-fi writer using the trope of a novel technology explainable only through technobabble that makes FTL travel possible is an accepted writing convenience of the genre. But it would be absurd to try and act like that is on the same level of laziness and has the same impact on storytelling as the writing convenience of Japanese NEETs being killed and reincarnated with intact memories in fantasy worlds that work off of JRPG logic.
Anonymous No.281588505 >>281589117
>>281588412
NTA, but you still keep talking in generalities. You obviously aren't confident in talking about any individual isekai so you have to keep things as vague as possible. As I said in an earlier post: Group up and dismiss. That's all you have been doing in every single post here up until now.
Anonymous No.281588909 >>281589716
>>281588412
>If a genre winds up being almost exclusively garbage
As Sturgeon observed: that's every genre. No, I don't think isekai is remarkably worse than other genres; it just happens to be fashionable.
>Do you frequently pretend things are black and white that you know aren't?
I'm doing no such thing. I'm saying: it's all good. "FTL exists and planets are basically one biome" is a different kind of genre convenience from the isekai setup, but I don't have a problem with either.
As for its "impact on storytelling" I thought your complaint was precisely that it had almost no impact on the story. So now I'm back to wondering what the fuck your problem actually is. Other than it being popular.
Anonymous No.281589029
>>281582675 (OP)
Digimon Adventure being for kids meant that the show had some obligation to have its characters learn and grow from their experiences.
Anonymous No.281589117 >>281590203
>>281588505
>you still keep talking in generalities
So has every single post I've replied to. The only specific work anyone has mentioned to me is LotR. I didn't take issue with that, because it makes perfect sense when discussing an entire genre. But now all of a sudden it's a problem, but only applies to me?
Anonymous No.281589238
Why is there such a lack of shows involving a GROUP of friends getting transported to another world? Digimon and DnD were both great shows with lasting impression. Yet it seems no one has yet realised upon this successful formula.
Anonymous No.281589716 >>281590051 >>281590581
>>281588909
>I don't think isekai is remarkably worse than other genres
It is, though. Not only is more of it shit, but there are also degrees of shit and this is worse.
>planets are basically one biome
This is usually garbage, though. It's not as bad as the standard naroukei setup. But it is an example of a lazy trope that frequently has deletrious effects on overall writing.
>I thought your complaint was precisely that it had almost no impact on the story
Where?
I can only assume you're taking my comment about it raising the question of why they're even doing an iseaki story and dishonestly contorting it into something else entirely. That criticism is about the writer making poor use of their premise. It was not saying that it has no impact on the story and writing, as was made clear by the rest of that post.
The naroukei formula has a significant effect on storytelling. It's just that none of it is good.
Anonymous No.281590051
>>281589716
>group up and dismiss
Anonymous No.281590203 >>281591726
>>281589117
You initially made the claim to have enough understanding to group up and dismiss isekai as a whole while relying on very specific traits that don't even apply to most of them. If you want to be taken even remotely seriously you should show that you actually know any isekai at all and aren't just reiterating eceleb talking points you heard about second-hand.
Anonymous No.281590581
>>281589716
>genre I don't read or watch and have demonstrated very little knowledge of?
>yeah, it's all bad
Thanks for letting us know.
Anonymous No.281591726
>>281590203
Again, no one I've been arguing with has named a specific isekai LN, manga, or anime. Why are you dishonestly applying a standard to me that you haven't satisfied yourself?