Thread 281618561

>Protagonist uses their "life energy" to get a power boost and grasp victory after everything seemed hopeless
This is such awful writing. Why is it so frequently used?

There's two main variations of this and they are both absolute garbage plot devices.

>The "decreases lifespan" variation
This is a lazy attempt at making it seem more serious and high stakes without having any real impact. It doesn't matter if the MC is going to die at 72yrs old instead of 83yrs. It makes no actual difference to the story since it inevitably ends long before the MC becomes old. It's functionally just a free power up with no cost
>The "they're going to die instantly if they end up using all of their life-force" variation
This one is slightly better since at least there are immediate and real potential consequences within the actual time-frame of the story. The problem is that usually this is in a fight against some powerful antagonist who would have killed them anyways.

This creates a really stupid hole in consistency, because it implies anyone in the story could become massively powerful if only they just use their "life's energy", but only the MC is brave/reckless enough to do so.

But in that case why doesn't every other character who is going to die use this technique? It's not like they have anything to lose. There's no reason anyone would choose to lose a fight and die when they could use their "life force" to get more powerful at the last second and potentially turn the tables.

The conclusion is that everyone can and should use that technique, and if everyone does, it's the same as no one doing it.

It basically makes it so that every single character death in the story becomes a massive plot hole from that point on, unless for some reason they didn't know they could use "life energy" to get stronger, or else you at least outright state or imply that they did in fact do so and still lost afterwards.

Pictured here is perhaps the most flagrant example, made all the worse by everything that happened in the following chapters. Why didn't everyone else who was being massacred by the chimera ants simply "use up" their "life's potential" to become stronger in that moment? It isn't like they made a habit of sparing their victims. Being defeated in battle by a chimera ant meant relatively certain death. Why not just "use your life energy"? Was everyone else just fucking stupid?

>>281618561 (OP)
Why do you go out of your way to watch shounenshit, which is made for kids in pre-school, only to complain about it being written for people with unformed minds?

>>281619019
Because I already watched everything else. With anime you first think it's all trash. Then you discover the small handful of gems, then you grow even further and realize you were right in the first place. It really is almost all complete and utter slop with a very small number of exceptional cases.

>>281618561 (OP)
>>281618701
it is symbolism for manga authors/creatives sacrificing their health (sleep, food, posture, reputation) to release a product that everyone would remember for decades. It seems stupid and shortsighted until you realize that it is a logical risk for them to take.

It's cliche but you'll see where they are coming from.

>>281618561 (OP)
it's hype
simple as

Shounen writers are constantly stuck in a cycle of hyping up the next fight only to have to resort to asspulls and plot armor for the protagonists to win said fight. The challenge is doing it in a satisfying manner that makes it seem like the outcome is actually in question or there’s a hidden trump card can’t be used anymore and that makes sense.

>>281618561 (OP)
>>281618701
Shounen writers are by and large hacks and shounen fans are by and large retards, or children, or retarded children.

>>281618561 (OP)
>This creates a really stupid hole in consistency, because it implies anyone in the story could become massively powerful if only they just use their "life's energy", but only the MC is brave/reckless enough to do so.
Kuwabara and Kurama are able to do it in dark tournament tbf

>>281618561 (OP)
Yeah I get where you're coming from OP
I hated the Demon Slayer marks.
What's it matter if almost everyone will die at 25 for unlocking this power if you timeskip so far ahead that the entire cast is dead regardless?

>>281619456
The trick is good writing practice in the first place. The minute they fall into power levels they've essentially written themselves into a box. Ironically early One Piece was one of the best examples of how to write interesting fights where the MC defeats a much stronger enemy without relying on plot armor BS. The earlier parts of the story relied more on the fruits, and finding creative and unique ways to use them or in how they interacted with one another. OP died the minute he introduced Haki. The key to a compelling battle Shonen is using a power system that's not linear "Person B is 5x stronger but person C is 10x stronger but person D is 10000x stronger... etc", but rather "person A excels in these conditions, person B is more skilled at CQC, etc". Even a simple rock-paper-scissors power system would be better for interesting storytelling but they all eventually succumb to power creep instead. Ideally there would not be any clear strongest character.

>>281619196
Have you seen Bakuman?

>>281619226
Interesting take anon. Thanks for an actually original idea

>>281620055
No. Is it good? I'm looking always for the actual quality stuff that exists.

>>281620136
I thought it was interesting when I saw it, I don't know if I would call it good.

The problem with the "if you use this technique it will shorten your lifespan" trope is that the story is never going to get to the point where the protagonist dies early. Avatar actually did this pretty well, Aang who was a crazy competent avatar died early and pretty much every problem in Korra is a result of him not having another 20 more years.

>Symphogear season 1
>one of the bigtime characters dies from the swan song
>Symphogear season 5
>"Anyway I will now use the swan song for the 15th time

>>281618561 (OP)
What if MC is the only one that can burn his life force for powerup?

>>281620351
>Aang who was a crazy competent avatar died early and pretty much every problem in Korra is a result of him not having another 20 more years.
This is the only time I'll find it acceptable to use the lifespan plot device. If the story actually timeskips far enough into the future to actually show the effects of that sacrifice. I've only heard bad things about Korra but I have to give them props if they at least explored the impact Aangs shortened lifespan had on the world.

>>281620487
Then the usual criticisms about life-span shortening still apply. But I can't think of even 1 example where that is the case.

>>281620777
I should have been clear it was meant with the one where character burn life-force and get imediate consequences and not far in the future, but yeah i can't really remember any situation just wanted opinion on it

>>281619951
it's probably what happens to all long lasting shonen stories. eventually the author runs out of ideas or will to work on the story and wants to finish it, but editor says "no, 10 more arcs, keep the money rolling" and the author just gives up and falls into what's easy.

What if I drain my opponents life force for powerup?

>>281618701
The fact that it MULTIPLIED his strenght by...a lot was also retarded, i don't understand hardcore hxh fans
>>281618561 (OP)
I think Yusuke used le power of friendship to finish him off

Mumen Rider vs Suiryu is unironically one of the very best fights in shounen history. No asspulls at all, tastefully minor plot armor (both having suites which equalized their raw stats to a certain degree). Also Suiryu is bloodlusted by the suite so there's not even the usual mental debuff.

>>281618701
>Why didn't everyone else who was being massacred by the chimera ants simply "use up" their "life's potential" to become stronger in that moment?
Gon is a one in ten million talent. Other people would not get that strong from the vow. What he specifically asked for was power equivalent to what he would have obtained if he spent all his life training. Not everyone gets the same rewards from training. You also need a certain mindset for these kinds of vows, Gon was completely consumed by rage and self loathing, it's not a vow just anyone could make.

>>281619456
Even though I'm an old fan of Yu Yu Hakusho I'll usually defend HxH as better written simply because it wouldn't be unfair to rename the series Asspull Hakusho with how often fights are decided by something of that nature

>>281624747
The way it's handled in the chimera arc itself is fine but what happens in the next arc is kind of meh

>>281619894
Demon Marks are fine since it's not just life force juice. Tanjiro being around the cast and them pushing their bodies to their limits by engaging the upper moons, while also training beforehand is what manifests the marks.

>>281624788
There's literally nothing wrong with asspulls

>>281625016
This

All whining about it is just all boils down to iamveryintelligent

>>281625016
There really isn't but I think the writing can be more interesting/satisfying if author can navigate around the need to resort to stuff like that

>>281618561 (OP)
>Protagonist uses his power which drains his life away
>His lifeforce dries up in the middle of the fight
This on the other hand is most kino trope of them all.

>>281624876
Alluka might just be the worst "character" ever written. Sincerely mean that too. A literal plot device. O my rubber nen is nothing compared to Alluka

>>281618701
Yeah just imagine Pokkle burning all of his life energy to fire an arrow so powerful that the ant might have to dodge instead of just grabbing it

>>281625472
Nah, the fun in Ai is imagining the nen conditions it is using to fill the wishes.

>>281618561 (OP)
its good writing

>>281618561 (OP)
>This is a lazy attempt at making it seem more serious and high stakes without having any real impact.
You hit the nail on the head already with this part. It's just to seem like you are adding stakes to the situation without actually doing anything.

>>281620617
Korra doesn't really explore the impact of missing Aang at all, it's basically just a fan projection that if Aang had lived longer he would have solved more of these issues. If anything its just an excuse for the series to undo some of the progress in the original and rehash similar issues.

>>281618561 (OP)
>But in that case why doesn't every other character who is going to die use this technique? It's not like they have anything to lose. There's no reason anyone would choose to lose a fight and die when they could use their "life force" to get more powerful at the last second and potentially turn the tables.
Whoah you're stupid. Most of the time the technique/curse/macguffin that allows MC to use his life force for a power up is rare or secret. Only available to a handful of people or achieved for the first time at that very moment. It's not something "every character" can do because that would break the story. God, so dumb.

>>281624990
Marks are just asspull amps to let humans fight with UMs. They have no narrative impact aside from that. Asspulls are inevitable in KnY because otherwise there’s no way humans could fight with demons.

>>281618561 (OP)
I like how Gene and Outlaw Star did it
The caster gun is his signature weapon and they hype up different bullets the whole series, with the "ultimate bullets" being things of legend that they have to hunt down to some of the original creators of the gun. And when he actually gets them, none of the villains actually believes he has them. So even others with caster guns don't have the bullets. And then instead of there being a huge fight, he just instantly yeets every antagonist he comes across with them.

But of course, using them greatly damages you and can be fatal, and if he uses all the bullets he was given, he will die. And then he still uses them anyway and '"dies" lmao

There isn't a single animanga series with good and consistent power system and fights.

>>281619951
Logias were cool and Luffy vs Crocodile in Alabasta was a great fight.

>>281624544
This is only good because it isn't by Murata.

>>281618561 (OP)
Kenshin might be the only good example of this. Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki is a technique that puts such a massive strain on the user that it ends up permanently crippling Kenshin, although in theory, it might not have done that if Kenshin was as ripped as his master. The series ends with Kenshin unable to fight using his special techniques, which some might consider a copout because he doesn't need to fight anymore, but regardless, what makes it good is that it was that the reader didn't know about the strain until the end of series, although it was foreshadowed twice. Kenshin was using a technique that was ruining his body the entire time once he learned it but because we didn't know it was doing that, we thought it was just a another normal ultimate technique.

>>281618561 (OP)
>There's no reason anyone would choose to lose a fight and die when they could use their "life force" to get more powerful at the last second and potentially turn the tables.
Would be interesting to see a story that explored this concept.
Every fight is basically mutually assured destruction unless you massively outclass the opponent.
How would people deal with this problem? I guess they'd focus on stealth and deception tactics. So ninja warfare.

In JJK it's shown that making binding vows of that nature is really dumb and inefficient.

>>281618561 (OP)
tl;dr

>>281620351
That's cool and all, but the sequel series contracting to Pierrot doesn't make avatar anime.
>>>/co/

>>281632189
Tl;dr pp poo poo
>>281634141
Based

>>281631418
The accumulated injuries and aging being part of it was nice too although aging didn't seem to slow down his master

>>281618701
1. How is this the "most flagrant example"? Gon literally gets fucked up and put in a coma as consequences of this moment. The consequences being undone by an asspull is a separate issue and isn't a fault with this piece of writing itself.
2. While not explicitly stated, it's very obvious Gon has been in the process of committing to this moment since Kite got killed, it's foreshadowed with the moment Morel shits his pants trying to size up Gon before the mission. It's not a simple or quick thing anyone can whip out on a whim when they're about to die.

>>281618561 (OP)
I think Scryed did power at price well.
In Scryed, people who get refined, or get power to the other sides, get their bodies fucked over time. Ayase's body was fucked up, but kept going through willpower until she learned her brother died. Cougar in the TV series (but not the compilation movies) dies at the end very young while watching Ryuho and Kazuma fight. Kazuma himself's body gets fucked up where he has a bunch of black lines on his right arm, loses uses of one of his eyes outside of Shell Bullet form, and was constantly holding his right arm in pain. Even Ryuho starts getting in pain when he gets his Ultimate Zetsuei that covers his body, and starts getting black lines on his face. Pretty much indicated that Ryuho and Kazuma are gonna die young like Cougar did. The worse case commes from Zigmarl who's power is very strong, but caused him rapidly age in just one battle with Ryuho, and die shortly after.

>>281618561 (OP)
Shounen fights are like wrestling. Anything goes as long as you create hype and there's nothing more hype than a miraculous reversal victory. You're not supposed to care about the underlying specifics of the fight.

>>281637642
psychological manga are like this too, except you have to hint towards it once or twice

>>281619951
>Even a simple rock-paper-scissors power system would be better for interesting storytelling but they all eventually succumb to power creep instead.
>Ideally there would not be any clear strongest character.
But then others would question it for lacking MUH stakes and MUH tension. Also if the MC is countered because he is the scissors fighting against a rock antagonist and wins or conveniently gets a paper side-character to save him or uses some paper-type mcguffin, then people would accuse him of having plot armor since he conveniently was able to win against someone who represents his weakness. But what if he loses but just gets captured instead? Then people would complain that the fight lacked MUH stakes and that MUH tension was just fake and resulted in something anti-climatic.
You see no matter how you change things up, there is ALWAYS a way to frame it as "bad writing".

>>281625472
Can't be because Kalluto exists and the only thing it introduces is a plot hole (Killua not knowing nen) for such a boring character.

>>281618701
This is one of the very best examples.

>>281618561 (OP)
That argument only works if it's a setting where the "life energy burnup" is explicitly an ability that's easy to learn for anyone and has no restrictions on usage whatsoever.

>>281618561 (OP)
What about Kurapika's Emperor Time? Threw his life away for revenge.

>>281640107
>Threw his life away for revenge
Kurapika is going to outlive the author

>>281618561 (OP)
its great writing tho