Thread 282167866

Who's the biggest jobber in Fate Unlimited Blade Works

If you go by the actual meaning of jobber, during UBW that'd be Berserker.
By the way /v/ uses the word, everyone because everyone loses a fight as some point of the story so they are all jobbers.

>>282168091
What was the real concept of jobber anyway?
I see it used with characters that are supposedly strong but still lose almost all the time, specially when it's important they win

>>282169989
It's a thing in fake wrestling. The outcome of a match is decided before it even begins. The guy who is supposed to lose needs to make it look real, put up a good effort, and make the guy who "beat" him look even better. That's his job as a jobber.

>>282167866 (OP)
>>282168091
>>282169989
Lancer, Berserker, Caster and Gilgamesh job in every route

>>282169989
I believe jobbing is a wrestling term where a guy is set up to lose in order to hype up someone else (ie; doing the job). Berserker is the defacto FSN jobber because Nasu spend a lot of time building him up as a force of nature that cannot be stopped with half-hearted measures.
Gil effortlessly beating Berserker was meant to showcase how powerful he is

>>282167866 (OP)
I'm pretty sure it's Caster, she jobs to Rin.

>>282170155
>>282170369
Berserker effortlessly beating Archer was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Gil effortlessly beating Caster was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Gil effortlessly beating Lancer was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Kojiro effortlessly beating Saber was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Archer effortlessly beating Caster was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Kuzuki effortlessly beating Rider was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Gil effortlessly beating Berserker was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Lancer effortlessly beating Archer was meant to showcase how powerful he is
True Assassin effortlessly beating Lancer was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Rider effortlessly beating True Assassin was meant to showcase how powerful she is
Saber Alter effortlessly beating Berserker was meant to showcase how powerful she is
Archer effortlessly beating True Assassin was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Kirei effortlessly beating Zouken was meant to showcase how powerful he is
Rin effortlessly beating Sakura was meant to showcase how powerful she is
Kirei effortlessly beating Shirou before he died was meant to showcase how powerful he is

>>282167866 (OP)
Saber is the ultimate jobber.

>>282170369
That's stupid, everything with Caster leading up to that was a huge crisis they had to get over.

Servant fights are all about affinity and stacking odds in your favor. Lancer always loses because there's either always something holding him back or he's going up against someone that he's far too ill-prepared for. He was dealt a bad hand in this war and never had a chance from the start.

Berserker and Gilgamesh are meant to sort of turn this concept on its head. Berserker is an all-rounder with extremely high stats. He's in the same category as characters like Fujino and Arcueid. If you really want to be the strongest, you don't need fancy tricks or bizarre powers. Spears that reverse causality, being able to strike three times simultaneously, these are all just parlor tricks. The best and most efficient way to eliminate an obstacle is to just be more powerful than it. Raw brute force is better than anything and everything, and if you're unable to eliminate an obstacle with brute force, it just means you're not strong enough. The reason we resort to trickery and tactics is primarily because such obscene, overwhelming power is usually unavailable to us. But if there existed an entity that could eliminate anything and everything by just punching them really hard, they would be unstoppable. Unfortunately, as strong as Heracles was, he wasn't quite strong enough to pulverize Saber with a single strike.

Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is the other extreme. If Servant fights are all about affinity, then Gilgamesh is the king for a reason. His endless treasury effectively gives him an advantage against anyone and everyone. If you're a Servant, then chances are he has something you're weak to. And on top of that, he has Ea, so he even has raw brute force covered. In terms of sheer destructive force, he'd beat even Berserker so long as he has that.

I would say Rider.
Everytime.
2006, Zero, UBW and HF.

>>282170462
>Rin effortlessly beating Sakura was meant to showcase how powerful she is
But Sakura literally beats Rin 2-0 in HF.

>>282171990
I feel bad for Iskandar. It used to be that he was considered one of the strongest Servants, but nowadays I'm not sure. While it's true that his army is powerful with stats comparable to Servants, some even stronger than Iskandar himself, the reality is that without Noble Phantasms, I don't really know if it's worth much. Ultimately, they have no real defense. There are so many Servants that can just vaporize half his army in one shot just because they have no way to defend against large-scale NPs.

They all jobbed to various degrees. This holy grail war was arguably the most jobbed holy grail war out of any in the fate universe.

>>282167866 (OP)
Pretty much any time a servant gets btfo by a human, which is supposed to be borderline impossible even with tons of powerful magic but Nasu is a hack so it happens all the time:
>Rider dying to wobbly punches
>Saber almost dying to wobbly punches
>Caster getting btfo in close combat by a Japanese high school girl
>Archer losing to Shirou because muh ideals
>Gil getting humiliated by Shirou

>>282172112
Powerful humans exist in this world, you know. Soujuurou was able to implode Lugh Beowulf's heart with a punch. Plus, a lot of Servants were humans back when they were alive. Li Shuwen was Servant-class even when he was a flesh and blood human.

>>282172150
The whole concept of mystery and the age of gods giving way to the age of man just goes right over your head.

>>282172180
Even then, humans capable of fighting Servant-class enemies have always existed. Monsters in human form exist in this world. They're rare, but they've always existed.

>>282172245
Hardly. Zelretch is easily the strongest but exists completely outside of the concept of magecraft and modern humanity. The highest power level "normal" human would probably be Ciel, and only if you consider tsukihime along with its interpretation of dead apostles as part of the same world as fate. Keeping strictly to fate the strongest would be church executors like Kirei and clocktower enforcers like Bazzett, but most modern magus don't put much focus on combat at all. Then you have savant retards like Shirou and greenman, who have very strong specialties but lack magecraft talent to use them properly. In Shirou's case even with the UBW shonen-style powercreep from interacting with archer, he never becomes all that strong in life. He needs the planet buffing him as a CG or the grail as a servant to be considered mediocre as a heroic spirit.

>>282171995
Random Alias...

>>282172493
Again, FGO shows that many Servants were as powerful as Servants even back when they were alive. Li Shuwen is an excellent example of this, he achieved Servant-class abilities through mastery of chi.

Soujuurou from Mahoyo can punch phantasmals so hard that it traumatizes them. Asagami Fujino can twist pretty much anything and everything, with her Mystic Eyes being equivalent to an EX-ranked Anti-World Noble Phantasm. Miyamoto Musashi was strong enough to fight oni as a living human. In Fate/Samurai Remnant, Iori fights Servants as a mortal as well. There's also Kiara Sessyoin (Kissyoin in Tsukihime). Also, there are various relics in the world capable of giving humans tremendous power. Edmond Dantes, the Count of Monte Cristo, achieved extraordinary powers after obtaining the Treasure of Monte Cristo, to the point where he can easily 1v1 high-ranking Dead Apostles.

>>282172493
In the current setting, Ciel is probably still powerful in Fate, although less so than she is in Tsukihime. As Idea Bloods probably don't exist in the world of Fate, Ciel would lack access to her Tsukihime version's most powerful weapons.

>>282173991
You're still not getting it. First off fuck FGO. Servants of the strongest heroes further back in history, closer to the age of gods with greater mystery, are 100% always weaker than the hero was in life. Artoria in life is a fucking gigachad compared to herself as a servant even with Rin or Kiritsugu as a master, same with every other FSN and FZ servant except FZ caster. Humans rising as the dominant species of the planet inevitably leads to the decline of mystery and magic, modern magecraft and modern humans are trash. Not even the strongest modern humans like Kirei or Bazzett can take on the average servant, which itself is an inferior copy of how the hero was in his own life. Another example is Shirou, say after UBW with full mastery of his RM and mana from Rin, would still get rekt by the FZ lancer servant. Greenman schoolteacher never had a chance without caster buffing him, after the first surprise attack he would get dropped instantly by saber, and there's the whole aspect of Nasu's writing where his wobbly hands naturally countered saber's instinct skill.

>>282174140
I don't really care what you think about FGO. If it's relevant, I'll keep bringing it up. Throwing a tantrum just because you dislike something is childish.

>>282167866 (OP)
He's not a jobber

>>282174164
FGO isn't relevant in this thread.

>>282170462
>Kirei effortlessly beating Shirou before he died was meant to showcase how pointless the folly was
fixed it for you

>>282178429
It became relevant as soon as someone posted wobbly fist vs Saber. If anything, FGO makes more sense than some of the dumber things from the first draft. Like King Arthur in the best class with Instinct jobbing to a fucking human assassin. Wasn't Instinct how she broke through Tsubame Gaeshi? That's fucking bullshit and you know it.
Yes I know that retard keeps bringing up FGO updates to support Kuzuki vs Saber but I don't give a fuck it's retarded.

>>282171854
Lancer's thing is that not only does his master not want to use him as a serious tool to win fights, but Lancer himself doesn't really want to scheme or prepare in advance. He wants a series of straight up duels where the outcome is decided by being the stronger, more skilled, or more crafty combatant. He eschews everything but his martial prowess 99% of the time because he just wants a good contest. He's one of the only people playing the game objectively wrong because he buys into the face value idea of what the Holy Grail War is.
The fact that he has quite versatile magecraft capability of his own but chooses not to use it most of the time because he'd rather just fight with his spear is especially indicative of this. He's no Medea, but his runes are shown to have a variety of useful effects, but he finds it more efficient to just stab things. Lancer has tricks, but would rather not use them to their fullest.

>>282172112
Kuzuki is a bit of an exception because he was being buffed up to servant-level physical capability by an extremely magically-talented servant himself. He trained from a young age to be an exceptional martial artist and killer, but he'd never reach the strength to fight a servant in his lifetime because humans just aren't made of tough enough stuff anymore. Caster made up the difference for him, which is why he immediately gets blown out after Caster dies and he faces off with Archer.
Rider was taken by surprise while Shinji was her master and the wobbly punches are literally anti-Instinct, so Saber is fucked trying to dodge them based on her common sense.
Caster getting blown out by Rin also makes sense because she's trained in direct combat, unlike Caster, and also has the ability to temporarily reinforce her body to servant-level. Servant-level physical ability, at its minimal threshold, is was stated to be roughly 10x peak human ability. Considering that Caster had among the lowest physical capability in the war, all Rin had to be able to do was buff her raw physical ability somewhere in the ballpark of 10x~ for a few seconds.
>Archer losing to Shirou because muh ideals
What can I say? The guy's heart just wasn't in it. The narrative beats you over the head with this fact when it tells you that Archer never once could say that Shirou's ideals were wrong. He lacked conviction.
>Gil getting humiliated by Shirou
This is also pretty well explained and comes with enough caveats to create the "borderline impossible" scenario necessary for it to occur.

>>282178597
>Wasn't Instinct how she broke through Tsubame Gaeshi
NTA, but not entirely. It was combination of her high luck and Instinct. She got lucky that her weapon was a good match against Kojirou's sword. In their first encounter, their clash damaged his Monohoshizao. The second time they met, his Tsubame Gaeshi was imperfect because his sword couldn't swing the exact same way, which Saber was able to capitalize on.
The only way for her in that battle was forward, and had she tried to dodge backward or parry she would have died. She had to trust her gut and step into the attack with bravery to defeat him, but that wouldn't have been possible had she not gotten lucky in their first bout.
>I know that retard keeps bringing up FGO updates to support Kuzuki vs Saber but I don't give a fuck
This was explained long before FGO was even conceptualized. Kuzuki's assassination fist is a bad matchup for Saber's Instinct. It defies her senses and, on first encounter, would ALWAYS fuck her up so long as Kuzuki is supported by Caster. You'd be better off facing it with something like Eye of the Mind, which is geared toward seeing through tricks with experience or natural talent.

>>282179384
He wasn't really being buffed. His physical abilities were exactly the same.

>>282167866 (OP)
>jobber
>beat every servant who was coming to the temple
fuck off secondary

>jobs to Saber in Fate route
>jobs to Shirou in UBW route
>jobs to the shadow in HF route
>jobs to Alcides in Strange Fake
>jobs to Lancelot in Accel Zero
>jobs to everyone in Babylonia
At least he was cool in Extraverse

>>282169989
These two
>>282170082
>>282170155
Are a bit wrong, jobber was originally a boxing term for a fighter who purposefullly lost a match either to boost another fighter's win record or for gambling reasons.

>>282167866 (OP)
Saber

>>282178565
>how pointless the folly was
What folly?

>>282174140
>Greenman schoolteacher never had a chance without caster buffing him,
God, ufotable should have kept Archer tanking his non reinforced punch. I was always wondering how people ever thought he had a chance without Caster backing him up until I realized the anime had Archer dodge instead of taking the hit for zero damage.

>>282174140
>except FZ caster.
What was special about him or he was specially weak?

>>282180609
?
He only fights Saber iirc

Nasu's "this character is SUPER strong but is always handicapped by X retarded reason"-isms is why I can't take Fate fights that seriously.
If anything, it's the weaker servants in the main entries that ended up becoming my favorites
>Kojirou b8ing Saber all night long and merely wanting to show his skills off to someone he actually cares about
>Hassan using the environment to his advantage instead of his skills and ruthlessly taking down multiple Servants because of it
>Avenger ACTUALLY going all-out on Saber after probably hundreds of failed attempts and holding her off for a bit
Everyone else feels way off in terms of their abilities, like Rider or Lancer who you can't even really scale correctly due to how their NPs/abilities work.

>>282184017
>Kojirou b8ing Saber all night long
How was he baiting her?

>>282183268
He never had Prelati's spellbook in life, and without it he's worthless as a caster. In life he was just a retarded lunatic killing kids out of religious angst with nothing to show for it, acting as Prelati's assistant. His only decent class is saber, but while he was competent as a knight and warrior he was nothing special. The grail summoned him in his demented state as a caster because it thought it would be funny, and he got the book as a servant because his legend is associated with it. FSF references his character a lot too.

>>282184057
Specifically when he repositions himself or lures Saber to perform Tsubame-Gaeshi. In UBW's finale it's kind of bittersweet since he purposefully stifles the battle in order to end it quicker, but in Fate he fights her with the full intent of wanting to witness Excalibur up close.

>>282184073
>and he got the book as a servant because his legend is associated with it.
Shouldn't it belong to Prelati?

>>282184203
Heroic spirits can technically "share" NPs between eachother. Medusa and Perseus (from the cliffnotes he got) both have Bellerophon, since one gave "birth" to it and the other used it in his life.

>>282184203
Servants can get tools and abilities they didn't have in life from their fame and legends, or abilities that embodied aspects of their life and legend. It's one of the few ways a servant can surpass the original in some way, kind of like Iskandar as a servant being able to summon his entire army more conveniently than he ever could in life.
That was established from the very beginning of FSN and what Uro was going for in Zero. The FSF writer takes it a step further with his OC take on the legend. Basically a big plot point is that Prelati actually gave his spellbook to Gilles because they were friends, and he doesn't have access to it himself unless Gilles returns it to him.