Thread 282905994

You want to tell me that he performed the sacrifice because he was desperate, nearing death and that the band of the hawk was already willing to die for him? Okay
But there was literally no justification for what he did to Casca

>>282905994 (OP)
>But there was literally no justification for what he did to Casca
Raping Casca directly led to his reincarnation and subsequently him locating 2 spirit trees. For a guy that can literally see Causality/how things ripple, yes, it was justified to meet his end.

>>282906037
He would have reincarnated regardless due to the egg of the perfect world, the only thing that changed was that instead of being born into a blank slate with no human emotions he inherited the feelings of the demon baby, which are so powerful that it forces him to assume the form of the moonlight boy every full moon, at which point the kid starts looking for it's parents
He essentially gave himself a weak point for no reason

>>282906101
>He essentially gave himself a weak point for no reason
Necessary to locate Elfhelm. Simple as.

>>282905994 (OP)
>he performed the sacrifice because he was desperate, nearing death and that the band of the hawk was already willing to die for him?
That's not even why he did it... he did it to punish Guts. He only agreed to sacrifice when he saw Guts.

>>282905994 (OP)
>But there was literally no justification for what he did to Casca
It was funny

>>282907654
I didn't see anyone laughing

>>282905994 (OP)
>But there was literally no justification for what he did to Casca
It's pretty obvious if you stop being a zoomer for a second and pay attention to the story, taht becoming an apostle/God hand changes you on a deeper level than just physical.
Unless you have exteme control over your emotions like Grunbeld or Locus, you basically become a slave to your deeper desires and pulsions.

>>282905994 (OP)
Have you not understood that he was gay for Guts?

>>282907641
>punishing guts for something he did to himself by being stupid and impulsive
classic griffith

>>282907697
>I didn't see anyone laughing

>>282907733
Er...

>>282908439
you can actually see the exact moment when both of them realize that he doesn't have a dick

>>282907733
Yep. I remember something about it "freezing" your heart. When he made the choice he sacrificed people he cared about (otherwise it wouldn't work), because he put his dream first. Griffith isn't a sociopath. He's a guy who has such a strong dream he's trying constantly to be a sociopath (sometimes this fails such as the scene where he laments that boy or when he tears his skin explaining to Casca why he imbibed old man penis), and the moment when he says "I sacrifice" is when he finally succeeds. The process is supposed to destroy all of the good in him and turn him into a malevolent entity, and so of course he rapes Casca and spites Guts because his feelings of betrayal had taken over once he was Femto. When he's reborn in an earthly form later, he's of course a different mix yet again.
>>282908439
>>282908474
I always thought this scene weirdly confirmed he DID have a dick, and he was just too weak and pathetic to rape her. You'd think that torturer would have cut his dick and balls off though, unless he was saving it for last, along with his eyes.

>>282906037
>For a guy that can literally see Causality/how things ripple, yes, it was justified to meet his end.
This argument falls flat when he tries to kill skull knight at the Eclipse, misses, and then tries to kill him again only to be stopped when he sees Guts.

>>282908865
>The process is supposed to destroy all of the good in him and turn him into a malevolent entity, and so of course he rapes Casca and spites Guts
The problem thoughever is that he agreed to murder all of them specifically to torture Guts, only agreeing to sacrifice them once seeing him because seeing Guts reminded him that he "made him" forget his dream. He also tried to rape Casca in the wagon because he was jealous of she and Guts, got his hawk glare on and wanted to ruin it. The same hawk glare he gave Guts after he turned into Femto and proceeded to actually rape her now that he had the equipment.

>>282908439
Maybe I'm a brainlet but I always saw this seen as Griffith losing his mind that Casca isn't looking at him with admiration like she always had but with pity and not able to look in his eyes
He jumps on her to make her look into his eyes and acknowledge him because there is no way else since his body is completely broken

>>282908865
>I always thought this scene weirdly confirmed he DID have a dick, and he was just too weak and pathetic to rape her.
It's ambiguous whether Griffith had any dick left or not, but I figured how just as Griffith failed to pick up his sword, whatever dick he had left was totally non-functional.

>>282909018
Underneath it all, Griffith was nothing more than a jealous little bitch

>>282909030
It's both, he wanted to force her to admire him, still be attracted to him... etc. By exerting whatever type of power he had left. She had already seen him at his most vulnerable, and he didn't want her to leave with Guts as they discussed earlier, so what really did he have to lose? It's both a sexual initiation and an assault. Griffith saved Casca from being raped once, he knew she wouldn't like him trying to pin her down, even as a pathetically weak man.

>>282908865
>"I sacrifice" is when he finally succeeds. The process is supposed to destroy all of the good in him and turn him into a malevolent entity
Griffith isn't good, but he still can't bring himself to kill Guts or Casca, he still loves them.
>specifically to torture Guts
Griffith wasn't told that their souls would be tortured for all eternity, Void omitted that part
>only agreeing to sacrifice them once seeing him because seeing Guts reminded him that he "made him" forget his dream
Griffith was going to say it after Void's speech anyway, it's just Griffith wanted to look at his friend one last time

>>282909141
Torture requires the victim to be left alive.

>>282909137
I guess, but he can't move his arms, legs, or even speak, how else could he possibly communicate without eye contact?

>>282909181
They had already looked each other in the eyes just moments before? Neither of Guts or Casca planned to abandon Griffith. It's not that Griffith feared being left alone (he literally ran off on his own), he just didn't want Guts and Casca to run off together.

>>282909175
>Torture requires the victim to be left alive.
I'm pretty sure no torture is worse than being the vortex for all of eternity being tortured

>>282909175
He also constantly went out of his way to disturb any kind of peace they were able to find after the eclipse for literally no reason whatsoever

>>282909141
>Griffith was going to say it after Void's speech anyway, it's just Griffith wanted to look at his friend one last time
You can't assume that, he finished the word once he saw Guts and there's a whole dramatic scene about it. "You're the only one that made me forget my dream" is clearly a blaming/accusing sentence, it's not like he was happy to see him.

>>282908439
This confirms what I said, though? Evidently he always had these deep urges towards Casca. As soon as he turns into Satan and his BWC works again, he actually does it.

>>282909233
>for literally no reason whatsoever
He's like a crazy ex girflriend that is still in love with you
>I just drove over to your house to tell you that I don't love you or think about you at all!
>I'll make sure to see you every time I can!

>>282909263
>Evidently he always had these deep urges towards Casca
IIRC the dream sequence where they have a kid together is supposed to be his worst nightmare

>>282909232
Yeah Griffith did that too. But he's also brought hell on earth and did his best to torture Guts and Casca while alive.

>Griffith only became bad after he turned into Femto!
fags are so weird

>>282909261
>"You're the only one that made me forget my dream" is clearly a blaming/accusing sentence, it's not like he was happy to see him.
He says "You're the only one" twice
The first time was probably accusing/hate filled, but the second time was nostalgic/ loving
At the end of the day the sacrificed only works on what you love, he had to love Guts in order to be able to sacrifice him, even if he did also hate him as well

>>282909341
lotta people forget that Griffith wiping out 90% of the political class in Midland as a power play to insert himself into their elite was pretty much what left the place vulnerable to the Kushan invasion

>>282909141
> he still loves them.
I don't think "love" is ever a word used in Berserk and for good reason. It essentially means nothing. What matters are your actions, not how you feel about someone.

>>282909303
I didn't say he wanted to marry her and live hapily ever after with 5 kids, I said he wanted to fuck her.
He was, after all, a gigantic faggot.

>>282909341
There's a difference between being a cynical, machiavellian politician and being literal Satan.

>>282909416
>I don't think "love" is ever a word used in Berserk
It's said multiple times
Even Griffith says it when he thinks about his feelings for Guts in the torture chamber
>What matters are your actions, not how you feel about someone.
I know that, but saying Griffith doesn't have conflicting emotions is false

>>282909469
one involved the mass murder of innocents to acquire power, the other involves the mass murder of innocents because you're into it
arguably, the former is worse because at least the latter is honest

>>282909263
It's kind of a meme that Griffith is ONLY doing it to spite Guts. Yes, that's most of it, but it's not like he's incapable of being aroused by a woman. Him thinking of Guts while fucking the princess is very homoerotic but Miura himself compared Guts and Griffith to him and Kouji Mori so I don't think Miura was being that reductive or basic. The scene works on multiple levels. He's clearly in homo bro love with Guts and felt like he was the one person who was his equal (except his possessive control freak personality couldn't actually accept the consequences of Guts being his equal), which competed with his dream. So there's that, but it's not like that's the totality of him or we can definitely say that Griffith is uninterested in boobies. "Bisexual" is reductive modernism, but something to that effect.

>>282909502
>Even Griffith says it when he thinks about his feelings for Guts in the torture chamber
Well that's another clue that it probably means nothing, because both times it's Griffith trying to justify hurting or blaming someone, including in the dungeon where he accuses Guts of being the puppet master who cursed his dick, blaming Guts for developing his own feelings.
>saying Griffith doesn't have conflicting emotions is false
I never did. But I'm saying whether Griffith "loved" Guts, Casca or all his 'friends' he murdered doesn't matter. Cool motive, still murder, still rape, still torture.

>>282909263
>>282909525
I always thought Griffith just saw Casca as a little sister more than a love interest, since she was clearly down to fuck for years and he never once made a move

>>282909602
He was clearly aware of how sexuality and romance could be used as leverage for power considering how fast he homed in on the princess as soon as he could, Casca would have been an obstacle in that regard

diddy party

>>282909341
Literally no one in the thread is saying this. Griffith is worse than a sociopath because it's not that he doesn't care at all, it's that he quite deliberately subordinates any care that exists within him to his dream. That's what I mean when I say he's trying to be a sociopath, but cracks show through. The Eclipse itself shows there's good in him, because it's literally not possible to sacrifice unless you care about the people you are sacrificing. Griffith is gaslit into believing that because he's already done evil it would actually betray the ones who have already been sacrificed even more to stop. Griffith is reduced to a crying child with blood stained hands seeing this. Troops are expected to die in war which is how Griffith justifies it, but the Godhand show him that it's no different to throw them all to demons in that case. His men could accept being sacrificed in one context, so why not in another? Faced with his own logic, Griffith goes from becoming evil to being pure evil during the Eclipse, after being tortured and mindbroken extensively.

>>282905994 (OP)
>the band of the hawk was already willing to die for him
there is a universe of difference between "willing to die" and "willing to have your eternal soul forever damned to constant horrific torture"

>>282909602
I think you're more or less right in that he never had lust for her, but I mean that he was capable of feeling that way about her if he chose to stop seeing her as a little sister he possessed. Once he felt like he was losing her, things changed in how he viewed her. He had to reassert a more primal form of authority.

>>282909562
>Well that's another clue that it probably means nothing, because both times it's Griffith trying to justify hurting or blaming someone
My point isn't that, my point is that he has to love the sacrifice, that's the rules. No one can say Griffith didn't love them because otherwise he would not be able to sacrifice them
>>282909619
>Griffith thought love was a positive thing
I used that image because he said the word love was never use in Berserk; see:
>>282909416
>I don't think "love" is ever a word used in Berserk

>>282909698
Griffith isn't a sociopath because of having a dream... there are well-meaning, altruistic reasons he sacrificed (himself) because of his dream (to change the world for the better) that go against the dark sexual undertones that led to him murdering everyone he cared about and torturing the two he left alive and forbringing hell on earth. The Eclipse was triggered by Guts touching his shoulder, the sacrifice was triggered by seeing Guts again after being reminded of his dream. I don't think the message of Berserk is "don't have dreams," I think it's just not to let power get to your head. Don't be afraid of vulnerability so much that you need to have a bird-like exoskeleton.

>>282909810
So I think it's poetic that one of the last scenes is showing Griffith talking about ending child warfare forever as the entire world is being rushed into the gates of Falconia because it's unsafe anywhere else. Griffith got to be shown as a divinely oriented philanthropic leader and all the people he hurt to get there were either dead or traumatized, silenced forever.

>>282909796
I doubt whatever the Godhand says, they're sunk cost retards stuck with only each other to talk to and children to groom. That includes Griff during BS.

>>282909810
>Griffith isn't a sociopath because of having a dream
Yes, but what makes him not a sociopath is he actually is burdened with the deaths he causes; he just buries it. He's TRYING to be a sociopath but failing. He finally (but temporarily) succeeds when he becomes Femto. Arguably this changes again when he's reborn once more because he's crossed with the moonlight child through the egg of the perfect world. He goes to check on Guts if he still has positive feelings (itself an act which implies that) rather than the purely malevolent ones that Femto has, and finds to his chagrin that he still does. Once more he has failed to be the complete 100% sociopath he wants to be to pursue the "castle".

>>282905994 (OP)
Her performed the sacrifice because he was compelled to. Because causality shaped the direction of his fate.
>In this world, is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true that man has no control, even over his own will.

>>282909986
I just don't see Femto as an entity as different than Griffith, I think Femto is Griffith in a batsuit. I'm not convinced Femto is "sociopath Griffith" or whatever because he doesn't act different than Griffith at all... Griffith also tried to rape Casca in the wagon, to cut Guts's head off when he thought he was going to leave him, to strangle Guts when he saved him, to justify why his soldiers were all okay with dying for his sake, wanted to break Guts and Casca up etc. I don't see a material or attitude difference.
>This place is the will that defines human nature

>>282909757
The band was willing to RISK DEATH because they believed helping Griffith achieve his dream would help them achieve their own. It's the whole camp fire metaphor.

>>282910136
Yeah Casca pointed out the bonfire of dreams while Rickert returned to camp during the Eclipse and everyone was killed, all the fires were put out. Pretty poetic.

>>282906037
Putting aside material reasons, raping Casca was a big, petty fuck you to Guts. Both for abandoning him, and for stealing the girl Griffith never cared about that way until she wasn't his anymore. Now he steals her back.

>>282910193
Facts

>>282910084
>I just don't see Femto as an entity as different than Griffith
We're told his heart has been frozen though. It's not that he's entirely different, but all his positive side has been wiped. He's another Godhand. He's become an evil deity. Yes he did those bad things before, but I never said he was good, just that clearly he had the capacity to feel sympathy for others. The Godhand even use that to turn him. The evil in him is something he's been cultivating because he cares most about his dream, and when he becomes Femto any possibility of good is wiped away, because from the perspective of what Griffith is trying to do, that's a weakness. During the idea of evil scene he's effectively already Femto inside which is why he says he can feel it inside him. So it's THAT Griffith in a Femto costume, but that Griffith didn't exist until he said "I sacrifice". Otherwise how do you explain crying child Griffith whose hands are covered in blood, Griffith who questions Guts on morality, Griffith who tears at his skin over the sacrifices of his men? The character is inherently written with that duality and the Eclipse is inherently supposed to scrub that duality away (it just sort of fails in the second step). That's the point of the story.

>>282910136
death != infinite afterlife of eternal unfathomable torture

>>282909506
>the former is worse because at least the latter is honest
No, retard. By this logic a soldier who kills in war time because he has to is worse than a psycopath who kills because it gets him hard.

>>282910052
That's what the God Hand is saying. Guts consistently proves them wrong by throughout the story by changing fate and shitting all over their plans.
Causality is defeated by a strong will.

>>282910418
>We're told his heart has been frozen though.
I don't care what the Godhand says (they're manipulative liars), the ways that Griffith copes etc. God itself, the idea of evil said that Griffith's emotions are human, after Griffith claimed his heart turned to ice. Given the themes of Berserk align that monsters and humans are not so different, I'm not going to say with very little evidence besides the manipulative words of our evil villains that anything is changed about them besides their appearance and powers.
>It's not that he's entirely different, but all his positive side has been wiped.
I don't see any evidence of that. He spares Guts and Casca moments after brutally raping her. What a "frozen heart" - petty rage and compassion straight out the gate.

>>282910557
>I don't care what the Godhand says (they're manipulative liars)
We're directly shown it works this way in the first Black Swordsman arc with the slug count. We're constantly shown that Apostles have an inherent predisposition towards evil and bloodlust, some more than others. The Godhand are evil deities. Griffith is transformed into one of the Godhand. It's straightforwardly that thing. There's a lot of ambiguity in Berserk but this isn't one of those cases. In fact, the idea of Evil chapter was removed because it made it even more straightforward and Miura probably didn't want it to be spelled out that bluntly. The ambiguity is in Griffith not Femto, because Femto is just Griffith with only negative emotions, or at least he's supposed to be. The Godhand are manipulative liars, but they lie in order to do this.

Pretty sure IoE actually is just will itself, the person reflected back on themselves. "Do what thou wilt"

>>282910738
Are we directly shown that? I'll admit I'm not as familiar with Black Swordsman, but aren't the Godhand trying to force him to become an Apostle? Why would you believe the words of the Godhand as if they wouldn't feel a certain sunk cost fallacy about their own sacrifices and be crabs in a bucket? Why would the Godhand need to manipulate and lie if they were telling the truth?
>Femto is just Griffith with only negative emotions, or at least he's supposed to be.
>he's supposed to be
You just read the story wrong and are thinking there's "mistakes" when it's just not about what you think it is. You aren't supposed to take the Godhand's claims as fact, knowing that they are liars. Femto's ambiguity and compassion exists because he is Griffith. Period.

>Berserk is about if you transform into a monster you get all your positive emotions wiped away and become one-dimensionally evil
>>282909141

>>282910920
>Take with you
>The POWER OF THE FEELINGS of your INNER HUMAN WORLD

>This scene takes place after his heart supposedly "froze to ice" and thus supposedly he "became" Femto
>God spends all chapter talking about his feelings and how human he is

It's interesting that the behelit starts moving back toward Griffith at the exact moment he stops blaming himself and starts blaming Guts for being trapped in the dungeon. The angrier he gets, the more monsters appear and begin to devour the band even before the Eclipse. Like there's definitely something "divine" to what happened, and Berserk in general, but if anything it's human emotion that generates the will of the world

>>282912507
Man or monster? Devil or angel? Does the difference even matter? Does it even exist?

>>282909030
that's also how i see it, and i'm no brainlet.

>>282911944
I don't think she has working equipment anymore bro...

>>282912687
Guts and Casca deserve more baby making sex

>>282912687
never noticed the saw-line spine things ouch

>>282905994 (OP)
its just shitty writing to make mango for teens

>>282912856
Once you actually start paying attention to what happens to Casca (and the rest of the band of the hawk for that matter) during the eclipse and even worse what is implied off screen you'll never stop wanting to beat Griffith to death with your bare hands

>>282912944
I already want to do that, but this just makes it even worse
>and even worse what is implied off screen
You mean the demon rape?

>>282913005
I mean, one scene we see Casca getting grabbed by a bunch of demons
Then we don't see her for a while, and when we do see her again she's naked, covered in wounds and passed out while being held up by a bunch of serrated tentacles
Not exactly hard to image what happened

>>282909469
you right, it's literal Leviathan

>>282913030
Yes I remember that. However I remember one retard really fixated on proving the point that there was no proof Casca was raped by demons and she was just beaten so that had me confused but I think she was raped obviously since her hole was bleeding

>>282910421
I don't disagree but I'm pointing out that the Band wasn't willing to die as a valid justification for the sacrifice.

>>282910920
>>282910084
First, the God Hand said Griffith is a product of destiny manipulation and eugenics. So when the Idea of Evil said, "Be as you will," it actually sounds more like, "Be as I want you to be."
There’s a contradiction here, because if something is destined to happen, why do they need to interfere to make “destiny” happen? There were times we saw Griffith could have died, and apostles made decisions that opposed their will.
So maybe they actually can’t control destiny as they claim. Maybe, just like Satan in the Bible is known for having the most perfect knowledge, the Idea of Evil has perfect knowledge of how the world works and can manipulate it according to its will, just like humans do with technology. Either there is Destiny and Ideal of Evil is fucking it up or there is no Destiny at all.

>>282913525
I don't believe there is a destiny in Berserk, I believe the Godhand are liars, and you shouldn't take their claims as fact. Of course the Godhand wants Griffith to believe he had no choice in becoming of them - they were recruiting him. The Idea of Evil tells him it manipulated history so that he could "come to be," as a human person, but in the end it gives Griffith the choice to make his own decision, and tells him to take the shape of whatever task he wants to do, which Griffith does by saying "I want wings" and choosing to morph himself into Femto. This is congruent with the fact that the Godhand are liars in saying doing so was inevitable, but Griffith ultimately did made his own autonomous decision to join them.

>>282913684
Here, the idea of Evil is simply mirroring Griffith's human desires. It is allowing Griffith to do whatever he wants. Like it can't be more crystal clear. Griffith literally yelps out for guidance, and the IoE has nothing to say but "do what you want"

>>282913684
>>282913727

More, the "idea of Evil" was a manifestation of the common consciousness of humanity, the same humanity that chose to be charmed by Griffith, uphold Griffith as special, chose him as their most beloved leader etc.

>>282913795
Basically, you shouldn't hold the Behelit as a more supernatural force than Puck's pixie dust; there is nothing actually spiritually separating Griffith or the Godhand from 'normal people' besides their physical forms. Human emotion and consciousness is the divine in Berserk

>>282909233
you should read prince of nothing

And the whole "chosen one" thing also applying to the Godhand is more proof that they too are human more than anything else. Griffith was "chosen" by everyone he met, mostly human, not only monsters, and not because he was given the Behelit, even before then, and by people who knew his flaws. We don't actually see what their conversation is like, because the only interaction between them is when the Godhand was giving him some sort of false flashback, but it's implied the old witch lady that traveled with Puck gave Griffith the behelit to protect him from monsters, not doom him to being one.

>>282909341
??? whats wrong about this at all

what do you get from reading this

>>282905994 (OP)
The lowest point in his life, no hope, no health no strength and if the eclipse never happened destined to die crippled, mute and raped by some fat bastard.
He lost everything, first the material wealth, his tittle and at last his friends, he died so femto could born.

>>282914084
straight up
griffith's development is so stunted in a world without technology you cant really even say if any development was his in that kind of world. Always at the whim or fancy of whoever interepretted his eye flutters. Killing himself or becoming reborn was it for him as aperson

>>282905994 (OP)
>the band of the hawk was already willing to die for him
This argument is so stupid, because if he asked the band right there "I can take that deal where I get to be reborn and you're slaughtered by demons, is that okay?" nobody would accept

>>282913946
I see. So people wanted someone "perfect" like Grifith to be their rule. Handsome, charsismatic, good at war etc. But in reallity the true Grifith was taking in the ass to sustain his dream lol. They wanted the lie that was Grifith. And maybe what he truly wanted wasnt the fake kingdom filled with demons but a kingdom built with his friends, with Guts by his side. In the end Femto is just a parody of Grifith, just his crude desire without soul.
Best analogy would be you want to have sex with some hot chick you love but in the end what you get is a hot prostitute. You do get the sex but not the love.

>>282905994 (OP)
>sacrificing your comrades to demons is ok
>bUt NoT RaPe, tHaT'S PuRe EvIl!!1!
What the actual fuck

>>282914419
Basically yes, but also Griffith couldn't bear that people still loved him so much after his downfall that they would fish him out of a dungeon to save him. He didn't think he was worth it. So hilariously Griffith bought into his own shit in becoming Femto, literally wiping away the proof that anyone could love him in such a weak state. It's part of why he's so angry that after running away, Guts and Casca and the rest of the band still run after him. The Eclipse is triggered by Guts touching his shoulder in a friendly way, symbolizing that love.
>In the end Femto is just a parody of Grifith, just his crude desire without soul.
No, "Femto" is the name the Godhand gave to Griffith, but he's still just Griffith, with his soul, human emotions and all that. He's merely the form Griffith chose to morph into because he wanted a second chance at becoming his own platonic ideal, not the humiliating, weak mess of a person he had become.

>>282914526
I also feel like that's part of why he's rapes Casca, like his worst nightmare is her still considering being with him more worthy than running away with Guts like she wanted to, and the fact that she pitied him and doubled down on staying with him instead of wanting to leave him after he assaulted her in the wagon.

>>282914575
Like she obviously rejected him sexually in the wagon and in his dream (he's raising Guts's child in it), so to drive Casca the furthest away from him possible he rapes her into insanity, both hurting her and forcing her into doing something she made clear she didn't want anymore. The Eclipse is just wiping away proof of anyone viewing him as worthy of caring for as who he actually was in favor of recreating his old invincible persona. As Rickert said, "he's more Griffith than Griffith".

>>282914526
>literally wiping away the proof that anyone could love him in such a weak state. It's part of why he's so angry that after running away, Guts and Casca and the rest of the band still run after him.

I watched a Berserk analysis (though it was more like his impressions of it, to be honest) some time ago, and he said something about how we could all do what Griffith did if we don’t open ourselves to the love of others and don’t try to love them back. The light of goodness that tries to pull you from the abyss will only harm you and drive you into even deeper despair, and what was supposed to save you will end up destroying your soul forever.
At first, I thought he was reading too much into it, but now I see it.

>>282914745
Yep. Sometimes you literally just have to forgive yourself for whatever you've done wrong and accept that there's no such thing as a perfect person. It makes it easier to forgive other people.

>>282914504
Didn't say it was okay, said it was understandable

>>282914765
I'm not saying there's not a point where someone becomes irredeemable though lol. Griffith definitely is post-Eclipse.

>>282909341
Umm, that was the work of Guts actually. Griffith only asked Guts to kill the king's brother, and this only after he tried to assassinate Griffith first. Same thing with the queen.

>>282914419
>Grifith was taking in the ass to sustain his dream

Guts was a faggot too he knew all that but took his words where he was trying to impress a princess at face value

I don't see the need to focus on this particular point in the story anyway when assessing Griffith. If can't have at it without a simple answer you just have to look at what he did after his rebirth; evil or not, justified or not; a great number of things done after both eclipse and the second sacrifice were evil. The last few things he did were invade and bring death and destruction to elf island and obduct Casca and hold her hostage.

>>282914504
The rape is different because it's done purely to inflict damage on Guts and Casca. Mostly Guts actually. The sacrifice is horrible but you can at least understand the reasons without excusing them

>>282914827
The difference being that Guts got mindbroken by that kill and tried to atone (at least a little) but it didn't even register on Griffith's mind.