Thread 283015443

Does Evangelion really not have themes?

30 fucking years

>>283015443 (OP)
I don't know if I'd say that, but Eva absolutely is a kinda scatterbrained mess that doesn't really seem to know what it's supposed to be other than just depressed and pessimistic

>>283015443 (OP)
That's some pretentious sounding bullshit right there

>>283015443 (OP)
I thought the whole thing with Eva was the struggle between forming connections and being an individual, with the whole hedgehog dilema stuff, it's obvious and has been talked to death

>>283015443 (OP)
this sounds taken out of context

>>283015489
>Oshii praised Anno's skills as a businessperson and as a visual storyteller but ultimately critiqued Anno's films for their "lack of theme." He conceded that Anno's films are visually appealing and have "[given] birth to a new presentation style" but maintained, "Expression and themes are different things. Avant-garde presentation... isn't the same thing as a theme."

>>283015443 (OP)
Shut up bitch. You made Vlad Love

>>283015529
vlad love mogs anything anno's done in a long while, unfortunately

>>283015511
>link in article is dead
>wayback machine it
>it's just a preview with a link to their app for the full interview
holy fuck i hate the internet

HEADS UP!
Anyone that replies to this thread will be raped by a roving pack of niggers TONIGHT.
You've been warned. Have a great day, sleep tight.

>>283015575
You're gay

What's the theme of Evangelion again?
>everything SUCKS everyone should just DIE!!!!11!1
Wow epic. Even the religious elements were just superficially added because "they sounded cool" and didn't really mean anything.

>>283015991
You need to read Freud, Schopenhauer, and Kant to understand it

>>283015443 (OP)
I don't know what that statement means.

did he say that before or after Shin Ultraman/Kamen Rider, this is important

>>283015991
Evangelion is about the unknowability of the meaning of the universe, the inherent pessimism that human nature and society brings, and how we don't choose to be born and how much guts killing oneself takes and how that should be made easier. It's about how "angels were right."

>>283015443 (OP)
Evangelion does have themes but Oshii probably doesn't have the ways of thinking necessary to extract them.

The theme of Ghost in the Shell is Makoto is a hot cop chick who is also cyborg and she fights cyberpunk criminals.
The theme of Evangelion is about the spiritual/social isolation of modern Man, the miserably porcupine state of one who has been so utterly demoralized & atomized by global society which is run by psychopathic OLD MEN lusting to become GOD

>>283015443 (OP)
What's the theme of GitS ?

>>283016039
No you don't

>>283016574
The internet is satanic and brings about manmade horrors beyond comprehension.

>>283016574
Robot lives matter

>>283016574
thesseus something what makes us human beans

>>283015443 (OP)
>make something that looks cool and then act smug when people ask you about specific meaning
>make a bunch of spinoffs to keep the money coming
Anno is a hack pretending to be something he's not, just like Kojima.

>>283016039
>he thinks a high school educated gook fuck can read English and German

>>283015511
He's right, his newer films suck

>>283015443 (OP)
it starts off as a monster of the week cartoon with slightly more effort put into the setting than usual and then devolves into a schizophrenic and somewhat masturbatory diatribe about isolation, parental failure and the difficulty of forming genuine human bonds

>>283016039
you just need to read the subtitles (most eva fans can't)

>>283017660
As with every masterpiece, the devil is in the details (the execution).
Why has no other anime before or after unravelled in such an interesting way?

>>283017735
Because the majority of anime directors and producers abide by network regulations and demands because they want to stay on the air
90s Anno did not give a shit and instead had a child decapitated on prime time TV for japanese middle schoolers and their families to see
And the only reason that even happened was because Gainax was a disaster of a company and was delivering the tapes for each episode so late that the network guys didn't even have time to check each episode before putting it on the air
Shit like that does NOT happen in the highly corporatized world of today, this is not the wild west anymore, you try to pull shit like that and you break contract and pay a fee or get sued into poverty

>>283015529
He did.

>>283015443 (OP)
Ghost in the shell was crappy though, and eva was cool and meaningful
>Love can only exist in separation, so I am going to choose love
vs
>I am become genderfaggot AI whoahh

>>283015529
And it was marvelous
And you know what?
Nobody watched it because /a/ has shit taste. SHIT!

>>283018446
>genderfaggot AI
>not wanting to be a literal walking tank
Low test response

>>283018667
I can't go on dates and wear dresses while looking like that

>>283015443 (OP)
>ghost in the shell director
funny

>>283018667
>Not wanting to be in a mech

>>283015443 (OP)
The older I get the less I care for Evangelion and ironically the more I see the value of the unparalleled purity of shounen battle manga.

>>283018729
Early-onset alzheimers, not even once.

>>283017735
the right influences and the right vision coming around at a time when the team existed to execute on it. everything aligned

>>283018729
the difference between someone that appreciates the top notch execution and someone that just 'likes' eva because they perceive clout in it

>>283018712
why be in a mech when you can become a mech? you're cutting out the middleman that way.
>stupid gay humans, perpetually controlled by emotions
>vs
>cool tanks and robots, in control of their existence

Funnily enough, even though he had many years to polish and develop his craft as storyteller, Rebuild's plot is even worst than the original series'.

>>283018856
Fuck off Yui

pot calling the kettle black

Yeah yeah, we all know Anno's a hack, Hoshii's old news are not special or enlightened to anyone with a brain

>>283018898
It could have been kino do easily.
Age up the characters for the third movie. Have Nerv be staffed by hundreds of Rei clones. Have the battles look good. And so on.
Farmet Rei and Shinji having a talk with Gendo are still great.

>>283015443 (OP)
Anno is a hack

>>283015443 (OP)
Rebuild doesn't.

>>283015472
He has a point. Evangelion's only artistic appeal is essentially Shinji functioning as a diary and mirror of the creator. We see some of his unfiltered ugliness, and for a lot of us that is relatable. Everything else about Evangelion, from visuals down to cultural references are pure (and quite shallow) aesthetics. There is no depth to anything. No deeper themes. Anno himself has admitted as much before. Anything that might seem philosophical or religious or ideological is there because Anno thought it sounded cool, and that's it.

>>283019225
None of that is what a theme is.
Evangelion's theme is the conflict between being and non-being, the choice between withdrawal or engagement at the cost of causing (your and other's) pain, hammered all through the story in both Shinji's evolution and his choice during the Third Impact, and also as a meta commentary in the role of fiction as escapism.

Things like Evangelion or Kare Kano just straight up tell you what they're about (which makes all of the "I don't get it!" all the more worse).
Things like Patlabor / P2, Avalon, or Ghost in the Shell eventually tell you, but usually towards the end, and through the words of a losing, dying, or dead antagonist. You find your way there through not-so-subtle imagery that I wouldn't call "symbolism".
I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about this FANDOMWIRE headline, or the words of Oshii, famously as normie and conventional as Anno.

>>283018856
it loses the charm, part of what makes mechs and guns and cars so cool is that they're tools we built over centuries of development and that they're merely tools. When you turn into a virus that can teleport into whatever machine you want, it loses all romanticism.

Oshii didn't even write GITS 1995.

>>283015443 (OP)
did he lose any function of his hands from doing this?

>>283015511
While im a true believer that medium is the message, still, he makes a valid point. Japs are really articulate with a few words.

>>283019276
He's just mad evangelion had more cultural impact.
Even though ghost in the shell is also an important manga he can still be a salty bitch that Eva, at the time, was still considered better.

>>283019510
He couldn't go to the bathroom without Fuyutsuki's help

>>283019473
maybe for you. for me there's no romanticism or charm in being a glorified ape with a hammer.

>>283019510
Probably, and the burns serve as a visual representation of his connection to Rei.
Once his hand is replaced the burn is removed.
There are no themes and symbolisms though.

>>283016574
adapting the work of someone else and pretending is yours

>>283015443 (OP)
>Guy who demands reprints of his manga be censored/have content removed bitches about artistry
lol

>>283015443 (OP)
At least Anno work is original, ghost in the shell is based on a manga and the movie had to remove 99% of what made the manga.

>>283019814
>his manga

EVA has theme but not a complete resolution
Its about the impact of dependency on other people, the desire for them but the ultimate non deterministic manner by which you can only indirectly talk to them and touch them but never truly get close in a complete way while still being yourself.
The religious overtones are about
a. The hope for an afterlife that solves these issues
b. The hope for a religious grace and 'forgiveness' in the context of Christian philosophy
c. The struggle of mans desire to live and solve these issues vs to be taken elsewhere where there is no sense of responsibility or guilt for mans imperfections

The reason EVA seems like it has no themes is because the message is very reductionist in a sense, as it ends with them basically saying 'nothing works' and returning to the normal state (with the later movies taking a faux utopian view that essentially claims that Japanese society is actually just that much better than Christian society which it is, and that these issues are ultimately solved by being more Japanese).

In fact it often displays and has themes of people supposedly being 'heroic' and achieving this, only to get snuffed (see Asuka after saying 'mama' in EoE) and the events of the PowerPoint episodes are not a good moral for assertiveness or self awareness which is why they fall flat.

Also, EVA has a bunch of 'filler'ish episodes relative to these themes that contradict the plot or don't touch upon it.

IMO Evas story would've been better if Shinji did not reverse the Impact in EoE but the subversion is what makes those scenes iconic so しゅらぐ　い　ぐえす～

>>283015443 (OP)

Based as fuck, Anno is a selfish goddamned hack and he has always been nothing but that.

Glad actual talent sees that shit and calls overrated fucks like that out.

>>283015511
>>283015443 (OP)
Isn't it well known that his films have absolutely fucking terrible storylines? They aren't even close to having a theme considering their plot is held together by string and tape

>>283019995
sub-midwit detected

>>283015443 (OP)
Is he talking about the original series or the movies?

>>283016039
ok evageeks

>>283015443 (OP)
I'm not an evafag but what are Ghost in the shell's themes?
I understand the appeal of big robots and underage girls in tight bodysuits but what does GitS have besides man faced android?

>>283020089
the philosophical depth, especially the second movie

>>283018898
I have no idea why reviewers haven't ripped apart those blockbusters for the slopppy Hollywood self-inserting self-insisting filler that it really is underneath

>>283020118
you're expecting too much from slop consumers with official sounding titles.

>>283019816
>At Least Anno work is original
XD
This is the Japanese we are talking about

You may or may not like Oshii as a director, but he’s absolutely right that Anno is more of a producer than a director.

>>283016574
Literally Deus Ex Machina

>but muh themes, muh media literacy!!
leftists should be lined up and shot

>>283020441
>chud admits he's dumb

>>283020469
to dumb 2 bee shamed into enjoying bad art

Ikuhara is basically the only true anime artist. You may disagree but that only reflects poorly on you

>>283020441
Nerds will boast about "media literacy" while having no real-life literacy. That is why fiction is written the way it is now, by fans detatched from the authors experiences and knowledge.

>>283020877
Calm down, Miyazaki

>>283015443 (OP)
Both are hacks

>>283019157
He's trolling.

>>283015443 (OP)
It's an /a/ equivalent of Eyes Wide Shut disguised as a mecha show.

>>283015443 (OP)
Most of Eva was just cool Ultraman and Getter references alongside cute girls and lost decade allegories, I'd say that counts as a theme.

>>283021567
Literally only westerners who watched anime for the first time considered Eva to be masterpiece. Meanwhile Oshii's take on GITS is still universally acknowledged as one of the greats in cyberpunk existentialist fiction.

>>283017735
Most productions are too well made for that to happen.
Gainax was almost collapsing during production of the show and it was written on a week by week basis.

>>283018729
Literally Anno's character arc.

>>283019157
Some of this is definitely trolling.
Directors do this a lot, pretending that they just reference stuff without meaning or that it was just a joke.
I'm not saying Evangelion is theologically deep, but someone on the design team had at least a reasonable interest in esotericism.
I'd bet that at the very least a few of the otaku on the production team were subscribed to Mu magazine (a surprisingly big and successful /x/ type tabloid). Where that type of Western magic is talked about a lot.

>>283022508
Too bad he also sold it out and made it his gay roleplay session with Tsurumaki

>>283015443 (OP)
>>283015511
Oshii is quite pretentious and hypocrite because he adapts stories that are intrinsically his.
But he is not wrong on this.

A theme is something you gradually build up without stopping.
You don't switch when it suits you.

Oshii is the kind of people to metamorphose someone else work until it become his (GitS being the easy one).
Anno has his style, but often play it easy and just cater to basic fanservice, and expected tropes.

Obligatory dump of this

>>283015511
If he's only talking about the rebuilds, he's giving them too much praise. If he isn't, then he's just outright wrong about NGE and also a pretentious faggot.

>>283023245
END
I don't actually know if there was more to this

>>283015468
This. It's a good show and visually fascinating but it's extremely clear watching it that it's a scatterbrained pastiche of ideas, influences and contributions from various creatives with little overarching connection beyond simply settling into the kaiju formula and following it through. Anno got far too much credit for failing forward through Eva's troubled production and into an accidental smash hit and the entire rest of his career after that, especially the rebuilds, has just confirmed that.

Hindsight has been far too generous to Eva because of pretentious 20-somethings in the early 2000s trying to pretend like they had uncovered a hidden gem and they alone held the keys to demystifying its imagery. The truth is that the meaning and purpose of its imagery changes from scene to scene and episode to episode because the show was not composed with a singular holistic vision in mind and was built to be an episodic story built around a loose and recognizable concept that would allow various episode directors to step in and do something with. There's no rosetta stone, sometimes a cross is foreign and dangerous, other times it just looks cool.

>>283015443 (OP)
>Anno a shit
>Miyazaki a shit
>Takahata a shit
Is there anybody Oshii like?

>>283015443 (OP)
Good evening sirs, I only like Eva, Berserk and Space Dandy.

Why Oshii's live action movies failed while Anno was a huge success?

>>283026973
too philosophical

>>283016574
Depends on the adaption. The movie was just Oshii being pretentious though, much in the same vein that Anno was being pretentious with Eva but more authentically

>>283026973
Love + Pop was a huge success?

>>283021746
Meh, the og manga still clears.

>>283026973
>>283028254
Anno is a hack who only specializes in reinterpretations of his own nostalgia. Let him make a Shin Thunderbirds and it'll probably be kino

>>283026973
too much cinemawank not enough action, oshii himself jokes about bait and switching the audience with the kerberos armors
>>283028254
all three shin films were the highest grossing titles within their franchises until minus one dethroned shin goji

>>283023426
I don't even think it's good
It's clever, it's made with great skill, but it's not good

>>283015511
Huh? but I don't get it
isn't he nuvellvague person?

Themes are overated and creators who rely on it are hacks who think they should be praised because "I talked about le pertinent topic". A good writer don't think too much about it and it emerge organicaly throgh the story.