← Home ← Back to /a/

Thread 283662346

102 posts 28 images /a/
Anonymous No.283662346 [Report] >>283662494 >>283662796 >>283663016 >>283663162 >>283663393 >>283663793 >>283663818 >>283664225 >>283664232 >>283664326 >>283664353 >>283667110 >>283668209 >>283669164 >>283670885
There's something that bothers me about this show, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
Anonymous No.283662389 [Report] >>283662476
Did funnyschizo find a new anime to latch onto now that his FMA posts get deleted so quickly?
Anonymous No.283662476 [Report] >>283662675
>>283662389
>Everyone who has problems with this anime must be a schizo. No one could ever possibly dislike it.
Anonymous No.283662494 [Report] >>283662780
>>283662346 (OP)
Too popular?
Anonymous No.283662675 [Report]
>>283662476
Yup, you even talk exactly like him.
Anonymous No.283662780 [Report] >>283662815 >>283669898
>>283662494
I think it comes down to the story trying to take tropes from earlier works like Tolkien's like the irredeemable races and stuff like that, and tries to make them seem more interesting than those previous works, only for them not to be.
Anonymous No.283662796 [Report] >>283662836 >>283670885
>>283662346 (OP)
Congratulations OP! This is the 100th post you do hating on Frieren! You must be happy right now! It is really cool to hate on popular shows!!!
Anonymous No.283662815 [Report]
>>283662780
oh god you're the demons can be moral anon.
Anonymous No.283662836 [Report] >>283663090 >>283663163
>>283662796
Why do you always assume that any person that dislikes a popular show only hates it because it's popular and not because they actually have some genuine problems with it?
Anonymous No.283663016 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
because Frieren is uniquely post-postmodern
Anonymous No.283663090 [Report] >>283663121
>>283662836
Partly because none of them actually express anything coherent that they dislike.
But mostly because not liking a show isn't remotely interesting so there's no reason to make a thread unless you're mental and bitter about it being popular. Maybe you could object to a show being spammed a lot, but the vast majority of Frieren threads are vacuous hate threads like this one.
Anonymous No.283663121 [Report] >>283663273
>>283663090
>Partly because none of them actually express anything coherent that they dislike.
I dislike the way that the demons in the show are handled because they make no sense and regularly contradict their supposed evil nature so much.
Anonymous No.283663162 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
I think it’s the lack of reasonable human emotions. That and the shitty plot that goes nowhere.
Anonymous No.283663163 [Report] >>283663223
>>283662836
If you think there's something wrong with the show, say so. Honestly, there's not much to complain about, and making a thread just to say you don't like it is low effort.
Anonymous No.283663171 [Report]
It's probably that you can sense Fern's slowly increasing size. It's unsettling and a heavy presence in your subconscious;
Anonymous No.283663223 [Report] >>283663364
>>283663163
>The demons are contradictory and badly written
>Fern, Stark and the rest of the crew don't develop beyond some basic character traits
>The entire premise of the story is immediately dropped after the first couple of episodes to start doing generic shonen arcs like tournaments and assassination plots.
Anonymous No.283663273 [Report] >>283663366
>>283663121
No they don't. You're just retarded.
Anonymous No.283663364 [Report] >>283663456 >>283663862
>>283663223
>they mimic human emotions
>the whole show is about that. I suposse you only watched S1 so wait to see more
>thats not bad, it is what it is. Its an adventure manga after all. Also, wait for s2 for more content. If you want a relaxing adventure/character focus/worldbuilding try kino, mushishi, aria
Anonymous No.283663366 [Report] >>283663485 >>283663549
>>283663273
It's stated multiple times that they don't understand the words they use and are just mimicking things. Except they talk in full, complete, correct sentences with humans regularly, and with each other and show no confusion about anything. Soltair was able to do a complex political discussion with a human leader to do a peace deal. This is a level of discussion that would be impossible if they were just mimicking and didn't understand anything. They also for some reason don't know what a father is despite that.
The demons regularly show anger, shock, fear in ways that don't make sense if they're just mimicking since it's often not beneficial in any way. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch, or get mad at her when she kills them. Aura whimpered and cried when Frieren forced her to kill herself. Lugner got mad when he found out that Fern was hiding her mana.
They don't understand human emotions, and yet their entire modus operandi is manipulating people's emotions?
They evolved to be this way, but they don't have to kill and eat humans? So they evolved to do something they don't even have to do?

Nothing about them makes any fucking sense.
Anonymous No.283663393 [Report] >>283664249
>>283662346 (OP)
Anonymous No.283663456 [Report] >>283663603
>>283663364
>>they mimic human emotions
So they're mimicking human emotions when nobody is around? Because they regularly do that throughout the story
>the whole show is about that. I suposse you only watched S1 so wait to see more
You mean being boring with no character development?
>thats not bad, it is what it is. Its an adventure manga after all. Also, wait for s2 for more content. If you want a relaxing adventure/character focus/worldbuilding try kino, mushishi, aria
Why does the show present itself like it's going to be one thing only to pull the rug out immediately?
Anonymous No.283663485 [Report] >>283663589 >>283663711 >>283663896
>>283663366
>It's stated multiple times that they don't understand the words they use and are just mimicking things
See, you're retarded for taking this completely literally instead of engaging your fucking brain and trying to understand the context.
What they don't understand is human emotion, particularly empathy and social connections. It's not that they can't identify words with the symbols they refer to, but they lack the human social structure that gives them context. It's not that they don't have emotions at all, but their emotions aren't human and assuming otherwise will give them a chance to kill you.
How the fuck is this shit not obvious?
Anonymous No.283663549 [Report] >>283663690 >>283663711
>>283663366
Demons understand logical things but lack emotions. Thats the whole point. The demons mimic humans and act like them, and they learn doing that. Showing anger is something they usually do to live in society even if they dont feel it. So if they show anger in battle is because they are mimicking humans all time. It is their instinct, but they dont understand it.

They dont need to kill humans to survive, its just in their nature. They evolved to hunt and manipulate humans, not because theyre hungry or emotional, but because thats simply what their species does. Its like a cat that still chases mice even when it’s not hungry, instinct, not necessity.
Anonymous No.283663589 [Report] >>283663690
>>283663485
>See, you're retarded for taking this completely literally instead of engaging your fucking brain and trying to understand the context.
So I shouldn't take what Frieren says to be the truth, even though the story constantly frames her as in the right every single time a demon appears?
Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.

The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.
Anonymous No.283663603 [Report] >>283663661
>>283663456
>So they're mimicking human emotions when nobody is around? Because they regularly do that throughout the story
Instinct
>You mean being boring with no character development?
The show is mainly about their characters, they are well developed and written
Why does the show present itself like it's going to be one thing only to pull the rug out immediately?
We need to ask the author about this
Anonymous No.283663661 [Report]
>>283663603
>Instinct
So if they literally cannot stop doing it to the point where it endangers their own life, like Lugner reacting to Linie's death, which makes him lets his guard down and gets him killed, then there's functionally no difference between the mimicked emotion and the real thing.
>The show is mainly about their characters, they are well developed and written
No. They aren't. There's no development, nothing to them.
Anonymous No.283663690 [Report]
>>283663549
>>283663589
>See, you're retarded for taking this completely literally instead of engaging your fucking brain and trying to understand the context.
So I shouldn't take what Frieren says to be the truth, even though the story constantly frames her as in the right every single time a demon appears?
Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.

The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.
Anonymous No.283663711 [Report] >>283663792 >>283663854
>>283663549
>>283663485
>See, you're retarded for taking this completely literally instead of engaging your fucking brain and trying to understand the context.
So I shouldn't take what Frieren says to be the truth, even though the story constantly frames her as in the right every single time a demon appears?
Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.

The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.
Anonymous No.283663792 [Report] >>283663895
>>283663711
You're autistic, ie retarded. Your direct, literal understanding of Frieren's words is wrong. This does not mean she is wrong: you are.
Also holy shit just learn to make a fucking post properly you fucking retard.
Demons are not regular guys with no empathy. Demons are talking monsters. Monsters are creatures that exist to kill people. Killing people is not contrary to their goals, it is their goal.
Anonymous No.283663793 [Report] >>283663994 >>283664101
>>283662346 (OP)
Lack of Frieren's ass
Anonymous No.283663818 [Report] >>283663945
>>283662346 (OP)
For me it's because every characters has the same similar "elf autism" that Frieren has in varying degrees.
Anonymous No.283663854 [Report] >>283664964
>>283663711
I explained all your questions. If you don't understand it yet I cant do anymore, please think about since it is very basic
Anonymous No.283663862 [Report]
>>283663364
>cop out excuse for bad writing
>cop out excuse for bad writing
>cop out excuse for bad writing
Anonymous No.283663895 [Report] >>283663980
>>283663792
What exactly am I misunderstanding about waht Frieren says? You're pretending as though there's some massively deeper meaning to what Frieren is saying, but there isn't any.

I've already laid out how that next argument doesn't make any sense. Demons are sentient, intelligent, and morally capable beings. Therefore, they shouldn't be mindlessly killed.
Anonymous No.283663896 [Report]
>>283663485
>they don't LE EMPATHY they can't into LE EMOTIONS
Cheap, generic, lazy writing that only appeals to normalfags who don't want to think deeply about things
Anonymous No.283663945 [Report]
>>283663818
The show is quite literally designed for autists. Working up the courage to get someone a birthday present is considered an interesting topic for an episode. The turn towards battle shonen themes isn't some aberration, it's exactly what you would expect.

The show is basically about doing turbo autist DnD shit with the occasional very painful and awkward but necessary social interaction.
Anonymous No.283663980 [Report] >>283664047
>>283663895
I just fucking explained what you aren't understanding. They "don't understand human words" in the sense that they don't attach emotional weight to the concepts we do. They exist to kill humans, so the reason they will talk to you is not to share information and cooperate with you, but to get a chance to kill you.
Demons are not morally capable in a way that is compatible with humans because they do not have the human emotional and social framework that human morality relies upon.
Anonymous No.283663994 [Report] >>283664332
>>283663793
I love how pornographic this anime is. The feeble mind believes Frieren is a well-written character drama or fantasy or whatever, but in reality, it is a show for gooners
Anonymous No.283664047 [Report] >>283664137 >>283664265 >>283664358 >>283668027
>>283663980
Except Demons have very human morality. The two moral values we've seen them have are thinking trickery is wrong, and thinking demons dying is wrong (if not shown through lugner, then certainly by solitar literally saying she didn't like the demon kings war because it killed her friends). They also have an understanding and expression of emotions certainly on par with frieren at the very least, as she is also shown to not understand some of them at all at the story's beginning. There is nothing to say they couldn't adopt a different morality. the story has shown they have all the components necessary to. It has not given a reason why they cannot change that would not also apply to the other characters who can. That's the entire point you're failing to comprehend and are using a lot of pseudo intellectual mental gymnastics to try and say otherwise.
Anonymous No.283664056 [Report]
Anonymous No.283664101 [Report]
>>283663793
Anonymous No.283664137 [Report]
>>283664047
No they don't.
Anonymous No.283664225 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
Worldbuilding that would make a low tier isekai look great and a retarded powersystem, that's 2 things.
Anonymous No.283664232 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
It tricks pseuds into watching CGDCT moeshit with a run of the mill fantasy setting.
Anonymous No.283664249 [Report]
>>283663393
This too but I do like the characters and characters > story.
Anonymous No.283664265 [Report] >>283664511 >>283668027
>>283664047
They only imitate morality and emotions, they don’t truly feel or believe in them. Demons understand how humans act, so they copy things like empathy or moral reasoning as tools, not convictions. That’s why they can say something is “wrong” without actually caring. Frieren not understanding emotions is different, she can feel and learn, while demons can only simulate it. It is extremely basic, i still don't understand how you can't comprehend it.

Imagine an animal that evolved imitating other animal. They will act like the other one because that's how they evolved. They doesn't have the tools to just change and not imitate, they can't possibly change (THEY DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS).
Anonymous No.283664305 [Report] >>283666060 >>283667097
I used to study german and the way how all the characters are named after extremely generic german common nouns grates on my ears and nerves for some reason, I can't take it seriously
Anonymous No.283664326 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
It's shit
Anonymous No.283664332 [Report] >>283664648 >>283665382
>>283663994
Who watches Frieren expecting a well written fantasy adventure? Everyone watch it for Fern's boobs and Frieren's feet, be honest
Anonymous No.283664353 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)

Yeah I feel the same way too, even if it was objectively good
Anonymous No.283664358 [Report] >>283667036
>>283664047
>Except Demons have very human morality
Congratulations, you haven't understood the most basic point
Anonymous No.283664511 [Report] >>283665334
>>283664265
>They only imitate morality and emotions, they don’t truly feel or believe in them.
So they're imitating having morality and feelings even when no human beings are around to see them? If they truly didn't believe in their morality, why are they not all using the mana hiding trick? They clearly believe it because their entire society relies on the morality I just stated. They believe that having big mana is makes you powerful and honorable. They're often described as being "prideful and arrogant" (two very complex human emotions by the way).

If they didn't believe it, then why are they constantly acting on it and adhering to it? This isn't just them mimicking. They truly believe it.
Anonymous No.283664648 [Report]
>>283664332
True, there really is no other reason to watch this garbage
Anonymous No.283664964 [Report]
>>283663854
No, you didn't. I explained why nothing about this makes any sense.
Anonymous No.283665330 [Report] >>283670997
It's a single copypasta schizo who has issues with demons. The schizo will frequently pretend to have short-term amnesia, see >283664964.
You might explain one thing, he'll forget by the next post. See >283664511 that was explained countless times. He asks a thing. You explain. He asks another thing. He has already forgotten the first thing and asks it again on repeat.
I guess he tried to be "subtle" today by not using a copypasta we can search in the archives.
Anonymous No.283665334 [Report] >>283665386 >>283668027
>>283664511
Following rules about mana, honor, or pride is more like instinct/learned behavior, keeping their society stable and benefits them (something like a lrogrammed response). They look like they feel complex emotions, but it’s really just consistent patterns shaped by logic and survival, not true human-like feelings.They are animals that evolved adapting to who they are right now. They act arrogant, they dont understand what is being arrogant.

They act on it because it’s how their species functions, not because they believe it the way humans do.
Anonymous No.283665355 [Report] >>283668545
3 episode rule. I was bored as fuck by the end of ep 3. Nothing about it grabbed me.
Anonymous No.283665382 [Report]
>>283664332
No we don't
Anonymous No.283665386 [Report] >>283668027
>>283665334
You're making a distinction without a difference. There's functionally no difference between how humans interact with and adhere to morality, to how the demons do it. They're sentient, intelligent, they understand how their actions affect other people. They clearly have all the capabilities to simply not be evil if they don't have to be. But the story never explains why in a way that wouldn't also apply to other characters.
Anonymous No.283666060 [Report] >>283670997
>>283664305
>walk right into your enemy's territory with your pet loli
>hello my name is liar and i have come to make peace
Imagine having balls this big
Anonymous No.283667036 [Report]
>>283664358
>He can't even explain what that basic point even is.
Anonymous No.283667097 [Report]
>>283664305
wait till you learn japanese and realize how a lot of characters are designed and named
Anonymous No.283667110 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
Anonymous No.283668020 [Report]
Bump
Anonymous No.283668027 [Report] >>283668127 >>283668431
>>283664047
>>283664265
>>283665334
>>283665386
I'm a bit late for party, but let me throw in my two cents.
>what demons have
"Demons" are, in essence, monsters that stumbled into intelligence as a side effect of the evolutionary process of becoming better mimics. This means that underneath all the mimicry, they are essentially supernatural beasts. This means that they are implicitly possess the basic instincts you'd expect from a solitary predator merged with the natural destructive impulses many monsters in Frieren seem to possess and tampered by actually being smart. This means that they do experience stuff you'd expect an animal to experience, like fear, anger or frustration. They are also varied in the individual capabilities and experiences.
>what demon's lack
They fundamentally lack three things. First, true empathy. They have very bare bones understanding of how humans react, but for vast majority of them humans, elves and dwarves are essentially black boxes where they push right buttons to get the desired reactions without truly knowing what makes them tick. They also lack natural ability to form emotional attachments that go beyond stuff like defending their hunting partners and listening to their leaders. Basically, their ability to actually form bonds is genuinely on a level of an average lizard, just a lizard smart enough to figure out concept of working together despite having no proper pack bond. The next key thing they lack is the ability to go beyond their instincts. They will always lash out against other sapient creatures, maybe not now, maybe not later. It's worth pointing out that Macht, with his obsession about understanding and desire to change, was an abnormality. A freak of the nature, tragic in his inability to be anything besides a monster yet still horrifically dangerous.

I'll continue below.
Anonymous No.283668127 [Report] >>283668265 >>283668431
>>283668027
Before you continue. Actually address the argument that the story has given all the demons the components necessary to change their morality, such as sentience, and having their own moral codes. None of what you said so far has refuted anything that I've said.
Anonymous No.283668209 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
>native isekai
>shonenshit
>power system based on imagination, so author can pull whatever spell out of his ass but he also has no imagination so its all hiding powerlevel bs and spamming lasers.
>antagonists are whatever, frierentards think 'le big bad demons that uses deception' is original or clever
>constant sentimental flashbacks instead of developing characters
Anonymous No.283668265 [Report] >>283668310 >>283668694
>>283668127
NTA but I don't think any of what he said is compatible with the concept
Anonymous No.283668310 [Report]
>>283668265
The demons in Frierens are essentially just sociopaths with a serial killer gene. We're told that they're wholly irredeemable because of that. They have all the components to simply change their beliefs, but they can't explain why they can't change in a way that wouldn't also apply to the characters who can.
Anonymous No.283668431 [Report] >>283668481 >>283668564 >>283668792
>>283668127
Point is, they lack the ability to actually change the fundamental parts of themselves. A lot of their worst quantities are hard coded into them. Also, their moral codes don't really extend beyond "hurting me is bad, hurting my allies (and therefore me) is bad, pulling dangerous moves to beat me is bad and baffling" or the stuff that's barely above what animals can understand. I'll explain more in the part about the whole suppression thing.
>>283668027
>How can they mimic humans then?
Because their original strategy was just mimicking speech to draw in their prey closer before mauling them like monsters they were. They lucked into gaining greater intellect as part of developing better vocal mimicry, so to speak. This also means that for most of their history, they weren't actually needing too much of the long term mimicry or long term manipulation. We also see that they have gained more human like forms comparatively recently, after Flamme's efforts allowed the humans to start striking back against them. Before that, "lure the victim closer, jump the victim, eat the victim" was a completely valid strategy for them.
>Why does the continuous mana suppression freak them out?
First, they do use temporary mana suppression technique. It's stated to be a pretty common combat skill in the setting. The thing that freaks them out is the continuous mana suppression technique, which is, from the in-universe point of view, actually a affectingly high effort, high risk low reward skill to have. Why? Because it requires the user to sink a lot of time and effort into mastering it, it's not effortless to maintain and simultaneously it doesn't actually give you much better results than the temporary suppression, unless you run it all the time. But running it all the time also comes with a huge risk, since flaunting your mana is explicitly a basic safety display, showing your enemies that it's not worth attacking you.
I'll continue.
Anonymous No.283668481 [Report] >>283668548 >>283668643 >>283668792
>>283668431
>Point is, they lack the ability to actually change the fundamental parts of themselves. A lot of their worst quantities are hard coded into them. Also, their moral codes don't really extend beyond "hurting me is bad, hurting my allies (and therefore me) is bad, pulling dangerous moves to beat me is bad and baffling" or the stuff that's barely above what animals can understand. I'll explain more in the part about the whole suppression thing.

It's not in Frieren's nature to be empathetic or understand emotions as an elf. Yet she was able to change that. How come demons can't? The story never gives us an answer regarding that. You're continously babbling on and on about information that's irrelevant to the argument at hand. Demons are shown to be sentient, intelligent, morally capable, have their own morality, have their own personalities, social systems, etc etc. Therefore, they shouldn't be mindlessly slaughtered in the way that Frieren wants them to be. Yet the story is complicit in her desire every single time. The story is contradicting it's own themes.
Anonymous No.283668545 [Report]
>>283665355
The first 10 episodes or so are actually the best part, when it's just comfy wandering between villages and solving their problems. It gets exhausted quickly however so it devolves into a bland battle shounen.
Anonymous No.283668548 [Report]
>>283668481
Elves are just autistic
Anonymous No.283668564 [Report] >>283668792
>>283668431
>How can they mimic humans then?
>Because their original strategy was just mimicking speech to draw in their prey closer before mauling them like monsters they were.
They're shown to be talking to each other with human language even when human beings aren't around and are using human language in their internal monologue. That fundamentally contradicts what the demons in the show say about why they speak like humans.
Anonymous No.283668643 [Report]
>>283668481
>How come demons can't? The story never gives us an answer regarding that.
NTA but have to agree with this point. The story intentionally draws an ironic parallel between Frieren and the demons. She's a weird emotionless schizoid and it's not hard to imagine elves being uncaring killers like demons with just some small changes. The exact nature of the difference is never explained, we just kind of assume elves have just enough empathy but demons never develop it for whatever reason despite having the intelligence.

I don't think this is a weakness of the show though. It's actually an interesting nuance that maybe demons could be domesticated with a little bit more organized effort by humanity. Breed them over a few generations like foxes. Frieren could be wrong about them. Probably not, but it's conceivable.
Anonymous No.283668694 [Report] >>283668911
>>283668265
A demon might Kant and decide that killing is, bad. mangaka is a feelscel. It is all feeling muh empathy. It has not occurred to the mangaka. S/he has not thought that you can arrive at killing is bad by itself because they don't have the feel. Even if a demon did, it would be an anomaly. Most evolved mimics aren't going to do that anyway.
Anonymous No.283668792 [Report] >>283668879 >>283668910 >>283668938
>>283668431
Putting it that way, Aura wasn't shocked because Frieren did something she found amoral or truly dishonorable, she was angry that her enemy managed to get her with an absurd (from her point of view) trick and baffled that somebody might have come up with such an illogical (from her limited point of view) technique. It's not a moral outrage at some broken code of honour, it's an animal raging at being caught in a trap that goes against its instincts, just with enough smarts to articulate its frustration.
>>283668481
Because Frieren can not only change, but also change without the ever present risk of going berserk and blasting Stark to pieces to check out if she cares about humans yet.

The point is that the demons lack the capability to grow beyond their worst instincts, on level that fundamentally makes it impossible for them to co-exist with them. They also aren't really all that morally capable. In fact, their inability to develop beyond basic transactional egoism is one of their worst traits. They are essentially perpetual stuck in pre-conventional stage at best. Also, their social system is literally limited to a pecking order where stronger specimens order weaker ones and is maintained partially because they do lack the faculties needed to have a few weaker members gang up on the stronger one.

Again, Macht was an exceptional specimen, arguably the least inherently destructive demon we've met so far, and even he has ultimately gone on the rampage simply because he decided it's time to kill everybody who considers him a friend to check if he would care about that and feel sad. Author's notes explicitly stated that at this rate, he would physically run out of humans to kill in his experiments before developing the emotions he wanted.

>>283668564
Because, to no surprise, speech is useful and copying speech is what jumpstarted their mental development of sapience in the first place. That's explicitly the explicitly stated premise.
Anonymous No.283668879 [Report] >>283669115
>>283668792
>The point is that the demons lack the capability to grow beyond their worst instincts, on level that fundamentally makes it impossible for them to co-exist with them
Why can't they? Answer the question. You'll quickly find that there isn't any, and the story hasn't given a reason for why they cannot change that wouldn't also apply to characters like Frieren who can.
Demons have very human morality. The two moral values we've seen them have are thinking trickery is wrong, and thinking demons dying is wrong (if not shown through lugner, then certainly by solitar literally saying she didn't like the demon kings war because it killed her friends). They also have an understanding and expression of emotions certainly on par with frieren at the very least, as she is also shown to not understand some of them at all at the story's beginning
Anonymous No.283668910 [Report] >>283669115
>>283668792
>speech is useful and copying speech is what jumpstarted their mental development of sapience in the first place
Humans almost certainly evolved language (more advanced than just animal calls) in order to engage in manipulative monkey politics. The same process produced empathy, the need to understand others for various reasons. Many animals have empathy for their own, so languages is actually farther along the development of social complexity than empathy is.
Anonymous No.283668911 [Report] >>283669224
>>283668694
I mean, Macht did figure that out, not killing until his personal plan decided it's necessary. Even Aura's squad managed to avoid killing for long enough to conduct their espionage and sabotage and they were far less capable in that regard.

The issue with Kant'ing your way into not being a monster is that they both have the inborn instinct to wreck murderous havoc and the properly solitary personality where the company of others matters purely for their immediate utility to you.

It's really hard to kant your way into not killing at all if you both inherently want to kill, genuinely see no value in others or society and can genuinely survive without it. Demons in Frieren are one of the most anti-Kantian creatures imaginable in that regard.
Anonymous No.283668938 [Report] >>283669115
>>283668792
>Because, to no surprise, speech is useful and copying speech is what jumpstarted their mental development of sapience in the first place. That's explicitly the explicitly stated premise.
The story says
>They only speak like humans to hunt and kill
Then shows
>The demons speak like humans to each other and often not to their own benefit or even to kill anyone
So, this is a contradiction. Are you going to address that?
Anonymous No.283669115 [Report] >>283669144 >>283669218
>>283668879
They don't oppose trickery, they get angry at tricks they can't understand due to them being too contrary to their own instincts. And having a very basic species preservation instinct isn't a human moral value, it's something we expect from the literal animals.

The story shows that they cannot change because they are fundamentally a bunch of animalistic retards who aren't that far removed from their dumber and more monstrous cousins.
>>283668910
Yeah, demons evolving the language as the solitary creatures due to being magical beasts trying to adapt to niche of vocalisation based mimics is explicitly one of the traits that makes them such a weird and dangerous monsters. Flamme literally states that on screen.
>>283668938
There is no contradiction. The show states what caused them to evolve speech in the first place and then shows how they expanded on that in modern days. The fact that they still do in fact use speech to mess with their targets, including simply stalling for time, shows what they meant by this description.
Anonymous No.283669144 [Report] >>283669741
>>283669115
How the fuck is saying
>We only use language to hunt and kill
Then showing them not using language to hunt a kill, not a direct contradiction?
Anonymous No.283669164 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
Fren is insufferable, Frieren is a retard, the shiw is boring with spikes of cool figths here and there.
Anonymous No.283669218 [Report] >>283669741
>>283669115
Demons do not behave like wild beasts.
Wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. Wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do. They are incomparable to animals.

Are we just going to keep recycling the same arguments over and over? What you're saying, and the show's descriptions of demons fundamentally do not make sense and contradicts itself constantly.
Anonymous No.283669224 [Report] >>283669741
>>283668911
The moment he decided to kill, or that it was a "plan", he's stopped being a Moral Agent. He put his desire of "having those feels [that humans have]" above the moral good of "thou shalt not kill". He's no longer a moral agent robot overlord.
Anonymous No.283669607 [Report]
Does funnyschizo like anything in a way that isnt deliberately ironic or detached
Anonymous No.283669741 [Report] >>283669867 >>283669882
>>283669224
First, you are mixing up the term moral agent with an agent that is moral. Being a wanton jackass makes you immoral and evil, but to be judged as such you need moral agency in the first place. Choosing evil doesn't remove your moral agency, it means that you used it to make an immoral choice.

Second, the demons barely have a moral agency in the first place, being instinct driven to a point where most of them simply have no intent of making moral choices in the first place.
>>283669144
Frankly, the whole "only to hunt and kill" refers mostly to how they interact with others and the series shows it.
>>283669218
First, they haven't really shown any special moral codes besides being baffled and frustrated at one magical technique and being angry at those who kill other demons. Second, the biggest issue with the demons isn't their hypothetical potential to change, it's the fact that they have very much non hypothetical inborn drive to kill all other sapient life they encounter and no actual drive to change that, outside strange freaks of the nature like Macht.
Anonymous No.283669867 [Report] >>283670521
>>283669741
>Frankly, the whole "only to hunt and kill" refers mostly to how they interact with others and the series shows it.
They're interacting with each other when nobody is around. So not in a situation where they're hunting and killing. That's a contradiction.
>First, they haven't really shown any special moral codes besides being baffled and frustrated at one magical technique and being angry at those who kill other demons
Those are two moral values that they possess. You are trying so hard to reach and make it seem like this is just animalistic behavior, when it isn't. This is explicitly a moral value that they have. They follow and adhere to it constantly. If they didn't have any morals, they wouldn't think that there is an action that is right or wrong. They wouldn't have this reaction to Fern hiding her mana if they didn't.

Several demons expressedly want to co-exist. Even that demon child who killed that girl was talking about a desire to co-exist once she realized that the entire town hated her for what she had done.

They're acting, talking, behaving and thinking like people. They have all the components necessary to change. The series has not given us that explanation that actually explains why demons cannot change in a way that wouldn't also apply to the characters who can.

Don't continue babbling on about irrelevant bullshit. Don't continue to try and invent new caveats to jump to. Address the main point.
Anonymous No.283669882 [Report]
>>283669741
Macht doesn't even want to change, he wants to understand
Anonymous No.283669898 [Report] >>283670154
>>283662780
>earlier works like Tolkien's
It's called ontological evil, it is a fundational core of western mythology and culture that east asians lack. To them "being irredeemably evil" does no exist. For them any "evil" is just an offended spirit that needs to be appeased so it goes neutral again. People offended by the concept of ontological evil are exclusively sociopaths that fear discovery.

Frieren is a huge trap for rotten to the core bastards to expose themselves who thought anime was "safe" for them.
Anonymous No.283670154 [Report] >>283670343 >>283670583 >>283670831
Frieren fucking sucks, the demons are written like shit, half the show is battleslop, the magic system is garbage. The only thing this piece of shit had going for it was the traveling and exploring places 100 years after the initial journey constantly gets sidelined in favor of jerking off Frieren as elf Saitama. It's unremarkable normiebait for pseuds who want to endlessly argue some horseshit purity test using some popular series.

>>283669898
Like this dumb fuck, shut the fuck up and go back to whatever cesspit you came from you fucking retard.
Anonymous No.283670343 [Report] >>283670538
>>283670154
This is honestly true too. A lot of this show's push came from right wing reactionaries using this show as a test like how they did with Starship Troopers. Similar things happened with Frieren and anyone who criticizes the demons were either smeared as retarded leftists or people that just didn't like inherently evil races.
Anonymous No.283670521 [Report]
>>283669867
>Anon got BTFO'd so hard he never came back
lol
Anonymous No.283670538 [Report]
>>283670343
If they just made demons actual, literal demons that were just evil instead of trying to be fucking clever with this mimic convergent evolution garbage and doing dumb shit that contradicts itself all the time, you wouldn't even be having these discussions.
Anonymous No.283670583 [Report] >>283670724
>>283670154
I'm neutral on the topic, but I'm willing to side with him only because you sound like a bratty 12-year-old.
Anonymous No.283670724 [Report]
>>283670583
Cry about it.
Anonymous No.283670831 [Report] >>283670993
>>283670154
>half the show is battleslop
People talk about the tournament arc being the start of the shonen shift but it was apparent way earlier when the show literally copies Dragonball ki suppression. The entire conception of mana in this show is basically just Dragonball.
Anonymous No.283670885 [Report]
>>283662346 (OP)
>>283662796
And this thread was already made recently.
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/283482659/#283482659
Anonymous No.283670993 [Report] >>283671162
>>283670831
I’ll always find it impressive that a funnyman like Toriyama somehow created the purest distillation of shonen
Anonymous No.283670997 [Report]
>>283665330
I've seen the same behavior in the schizo who dislikes MCbowls.

>>283666060
The thing is that German isn't a language in Frieren so the words don't mean anything there. Lugner is just Lugner.
Anonymous No.283671162 [Report]
>>283670993
He made a joke of us all by making catnip for autists.