Something that ive realized over the years is that I value a woman in my life over literally everything else, because nothing brings me as much pleasure as that. And of course i mean physically. Whenever someone asks me what i want most in life, its that. I want someone to cuddle with, kiss, have sex with, all that stuff, but i cant get that. I could of course pay for it with escorts but its not the same. Its something thats really overshadowed anything else i would want in my life. The few times ive paid for it and experienced it i felt like a human being again and just felt wonderful and i wish i could get that legitimately but for a long list of reasons thats not happening.

I wish i could go back in time and make some different choices but i cant. Every night i go to bed wishing someone was sleeping next to me, and i wake up thinking the same. My whole day is just episodes of wanting to be with someone but not being someone who can be with someone. It just causes misery loops that lead nowhere. Is there any way to accept this isnt something you can get? How do you live happily single? I know a lot of people who do it just the major difference between me and them is they got it for free while i had to pay a lot of money to get a simulation of it. Makes the action feel like an extreme luxury then.

>>33237497 (OP)
For someone who is going through a divorce, being a gamer seems like heaven.

>>33237497 (OP)
this is completely normal for an animal, your animal mind is just trying to tell you you're a failure for failing to find a mate, find copes or stay miserable

>>33237527
Wanting to be alone?

>>33237544
No, being happy alone. Anon, I think you lack a conscious. You had it when you were a kid, but it got taken away when you were a teeanger, so now you are confused why the world acts the way it does. If you want a girlfriend, you have to be the guy who listens to her best. The guy who gets it. You notice of how in romantic comedies there are guys the girl goes through all rich, strong, and all of that, yet she settles with the guy who listens to her best, that applies in reality... Though in moderation as if you implement slavery onto others as a douchebag pothead who just plays Counter Strike all the time and screams at people, then you're gonna have issues. Other than that you have to be proud of you the best you can.

>>33237592
I wasn't replying to you and nothing you said is relevant to me

>>33237592
i am so curious whether you are as much of a faggot irl as you are online

>>33237599
Cool.
>>33237602
People's sexuality are not your problem.

>>33237645
what a zach thing to say

>>33237497 (OP)
You want it because you can't immediately have it. If you could have a woman to touch then it would be boring and you would start wanting more, like genuine companionship. Once you have genuine companionship you would have to find something else to occupy yourself.

>>33237497 (OP)
I feel the same.
Hopefully we still have a couple chances left.

>>33237497 (OP)
It's normal, because you're not meeting your basic needs. It's not natural to be an incel. You would have drive and other passions in life if you had experienced that, but you didn't and so you're stuck: it's not that you either get love and women or pursue something greater, instead you either get both or nothing. I'm a virgin in my mid 20s, I see people around me who are driven, study, grind, pursue their goals. All these driven people, they all had sex and fun as teenagers, they already got it out if their system, they lived normal social lives; I notice that especially in the girls, who've been ran through already and some of them now are fine staying single and focusing on the grind or other things. You missed out on that and you didn't grow up into a complete person. You can't just skip a step in your development and be fine. All the few other virgins or incels I meet are completely miserable. As an incel, especially if you are kissless virgin, you probably can't even conceive how miserable your whole life has been up until now compared to that of the average person. And I'm not just talking about the lack of women and love, but the serious social and mental problems that caused it in the first place.

>>33237497 (OP)
get a pet (dog preferably) and go on hikes with him. The dog will unironically make you feel like a kid again, and its totally true that nature is probably the most beneficial thing on the human psyche

>>33237592
I wasnt happy being alone as a kid. I remember vividly as a child having fantasies about dating and having a girlfriend when i was like 6. Ive always been a super physical affectionate person who was forced by society and my peers to not be. I think its because i grew up to be too damn weird and ugly and the level of work that needs to be done for me to reach a point where i am average is so excessive i dont even want to try it now. Ive tried it so many times.

Also every guy tries to listen to a girl best, this works i guess if you are average to above average but im not. At this point in my life i have realized it is too much of an ask to get what most guys get for free this easily. I have to learn to be fully alone. Which has been a miserable struggle and a path to being and feeling inhuman. Its also making me really hate women for a variety of reasons.

>>33237687
True, but i am also wanting companionship. Its just i am fine with escorts because an escort is better than literally nothing. Its just that i guess either pimps dont exist in my area like they used to or they got greedy too because increasing the prices from $180 an hour to $600 an hour in less than 3 years is fucking insane and knocks me out of the market. It feels like every six months they just think of a bigger number and then charge that. Which is really funny because im not the only guy in my area saying "fuck this" and boycotting them. Because ill sometimes have them message me trying to get me to see them but they wont lower the price to something reasonable so i dont. They must be hurting.

As of right now, genuine companionship would be the thing i most want in life. Anything that comes after that would be easy to fix and deal with. I could do anything then.

>>33237687
Furthermore, after i had seen an escort my mood and energy was better for nearly a month and a half later. I also had a friend who i nearly made into something but it fell apart but before it fell apart we used to hug and cuddle a lot(which i later learned she didnt want to do but just dealt with it because she was scared of me. More evidence i cant have what others have even if it looks like it, it always has to be negative) and with all that physical contact in a short two week period my mood and energy was so much better, stress non existent, suicidal thoughts non-existent, sleep better, etc. I then got people telling me "ohh i doesnt matter, once you are fully happy with life then find someone" but the problem is i think they are so privileged and so lucky, they never had to learn the person they become when they are chronically alone.

>>33237848
I agree with this entirely and have seen all of it personally myself. Whats messed up too is i did have my first kiss for free, in high school. And looking back i could have slept with her but i was under absolutely terrible influences(mgtow) and was scared she would ruin my life if i did so it took me years to get over that. That was the last time in my entire life i got the chance to do that and i feel like after i started seeing escorts the door got slammed on normal relationships permanently. I went from a 4/10 to a -100 ghost person.

>>33238381
If i lived in a larger apartment i would

I looooove fucking hot pussy

>>33238964
Is this the start of the indian national anthem?

>>33237848
>the girls, who've been ran through already and some of them now are fine staying single and focusing on the grind or other things
these girls are dead inside and being a boss bitch career woman is a gigantic cope
everything else about your post is bullshit, too

>>33239108
I dont think those women could be as miserable as some of us are simply because they can actually be a career boss bitch. I dont have the energy nor the ability to add more stress to my life to be a boss bitch in a career. I havent had a career my entire life its all be odd jobs that pay ok.

But i would love to know how to develop the motivation when in my opinion i have been nothing but beat down hard. How do you create momentum when your entire life youve been told you are a failure? How do you tell the entire world to go fuck itself and all your past experiences to go fuck itself and push yourself to the point where you can make reasonable change? And then how do you sustain it?

>>33237497 (OP)
>Codename: Kids Next Door
BASED BASED BASED

>>33239150
legit one of my favorite cartoons when i was a kid, this image hit hard as fuck because that is legit what it feels like to go back to the places you used to play as a kid. Everything is old. Worn down. Not as bright and magical as it once was, etc etc.

>>33237497 (OP)
Going through this right now, friend. For me it involved working on myself with therapy and at the gym, to improve my mental and physical health. At the same time I gradually started adding more things to my life that I could also meet women at, and approached them as things I wanted to do rather than places to exclusively meet people. I think you're at your most attractive when you're engaged, present, and passionate. Also helps if you understand the psychological and physical processes of attachment, so you know what to seek and what's going on.
Personally I also started reading and understanding philosophy, which helped organize my thinking a lot better, but I don't think this is completely necessary for everyone.

>>33237497 (OP)
Sex is nice, but it ain't all that.

>>33239171
getting old is ass sorry i dont have any advice i cope with escorts
nice image tho again

>>33239227
To me it is. Really any sort of closeness with a woman is something reality shattering to me.

>>33239250
Tbh i would just continue coping with escorts but every time i make more money its like they charge even more. A 4/10 woman in her 40s should not cost $500/hr fuck off. And then theres all the sketchiness and rules and just utter disrespect. Service has gone to shit while the price has gone up, its like they cant even keep their hate of men down even for half a grand.

In the past these girls fucked better for cheaper. But now, its not something i can keep doing. Because the bar keeps getting raised.

>>33239329
>Tbh i would just continue coping with escorts but every time i make more money its like they charge even more. A 4/10 woman in her 40s should not cost $500/hr fuck off. And then theres all the sketchiness and rules and just utter disrespect. Service has gone to shit while the price has gone up, its like they cant even keep their hate of men down even for half a grand.

Which country?

>>33239603
USA, only place with this problem from what I understand. Women just hate us here and escorts are no exception. Sure I could go to another country but that's added cost now to the point where it becomes more expensive when you factor in air plane tickets, hotel, food, transportation, etc not to mention detailing your life for at least a week or more. It's a shit situation.

>>33239753
that sucks i hope it gets better cuz you seem like a chill guy.

>>33239792
Does he? He seems like a sex-obsessed wad that has neglected making any real bonds between anyone that would throw anyone under the bus if it meant he could oogle a woman.

>>33239799
there is nothing wrong with being obsessed with segz, thats a default thing for normies

>>33239799
I have strong friend groups and have turned down paid pussy numerous times. I can't make any real bonds if no woman wants to make a bond with me. It's a two way street. I can only attempt to get only so far. Not only that most guys I've met are more sex obsessed with me and if I could have it any way it would be to have sex once a month and just cuddle and kiss and do that stuff for the rest of the month. Actually, I could probably go several months in between sex if it meant I was still getting physical affection and love. It's hard to say because I've never once been in a situation like that. I'm 29 and have only known being single.

>>33239792
Thanks, I will probably have to do what >>33239205 said and hit the gym and get a therapist just both cost money and I'm lost in finding a therapist. Gym doesn't seem to work for me either but that's probably because I'm stupid with it. No diet plans or anything. It's like there's something constantly working against me every time I try to get fit and it's so much harder to get in shape for me. Like my natural state is just shit.

>>33239813
Exactly. If covid didn't happen he might have had a point but I watched normies become legit suicidal over not having sex for a week. I'm asking to have it once a month if I get no physical contact, once every three to five months if I am. I feel like this is a reasonable and low demand for most women but apparently I'm wrong about that or else this wouldn't be an issue. It's a high demand if you are below average. Low demand if you are above average. I don't deserve anyone tell I become at least average but I can't even reach that which makes every aspect of my life miserable or inadequate.

>>33239842
Maybe not miserable or inadequate but just a growing feeling of this not being normal and I'm not doing good. Like I could be eating gourmet food on a tropical island but the idea I'm going to bed alone would make me feel more like a loser than being a guy with a family in a trailer park.

Some things you can't buy, and for most guys I know they can get this easily. The fact I can't means something is horribly wrong. Like those guys could get money if they worked for it but I worked and tried to get into relationships and failed. What does that make me?

>>33239890
NTA. I'm almost 36 and have never kissed or had sex, just prefacing this so you know where I'm speaking from. It sounds like you've got a bad case of "the grass looks greener". I grew up in multiple trailer parks, my parents did not get along well at all. You're romanticizing relationships because you've never had one. There's a lot of negative aspects that you have to deal with and work through to make them work and the sad fact is that most of the time people can't handle it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I feel about it, and that's why I won't allow myself to even try to get into a relationship because my desires are guided by loneliness. I've given up by using unhealthy coping mechanisms, the worst of which so far has been using locally hosted chat bots. I say forget the prostitutes and get a sex doll, a good one will cost you more up front but it will save you so much money long term and what's more, you can cuddle with it at night. If you're touch starved it WILL help you sleep, believe me.

Bumping, will comment later

>>33239329
What's the most contact you've had? A hug?

>>33241328
Without paying for it as an adult? Yes. Ive had sex with about 9 women in the past though but all of them were escorts

>>33240331
This is something ive debated and thought about in my head. Would it be better to be single than in a toxic relationship? I was almost in a relationship in my early 20s but she moved and we stayed in contact and it became so fucking toxic. She said she would date me if i was fine with being in a "poly" relationship. Obviously i didnt want to do that but we continued talking and that was the wrong call over all. I wouldnt want to be in a relationship like that no.

As for the escorts and the sex doll. I have people at my house regularly so i dont want to hide a full size human like figure. The escorts i feel like i am being given so many signs to just stop seeing them. Cost going up randomly, shitty service, higher risks, higher penalties, etc. My desire for it isnt guided by loneliness as much as it is guided by a feeling of being wanted and accepted. Not being her last choice but actually being wanted. Also the general relaxing feeling that comes from cuddling i really like and helps me deal with stress super well and sleep better which has a MASSIVE bonus to my entire life. This is something i feel like at this point in my life is probably impossible and ive missed out on and its too late. I really wish i could just not have to deal with this at all. I wish my copes didnt dry up so fast.

>>33241821
To add on about escorts. I just dont want to spend money on this each month. It feels like having a chronic illness that insurance doesnt cover the meds for and now im having a bill thats $400-$500 and i would rather use that for other things in my life. It feels like because i cant seem to figure out how to solve this issue i would have to either endure absolutely nothing(like i have been, havent seen an escort in a year and four months) or spend a bunch of money to relieve this issue.

>>33240331
First you say that the grass is greener and love and sex don't matter, and then you admit that you have unhealthy addictions to surrogates like chatbots and sex dolls to cope with the lack of it.
>>33239108
>these girls are dead inside and being a boss bitch career woman is a gigantic cope
I wasn't talking about boss bitches and not even about girls who decide to stay single, I just meant that they can handle being single for some time better and focus on other stuff unlike OP. But they don't need it anyway because then again, most of them aren't single.
>everything else about your post is bullshit, too
I can assure you that if you somehow ended up kissles past 20-25 then there's something wrong with you and you missed out on much more than women than you realize. And then there's also the consequences of being alone for so long to add to it, that alone would have been enough to cause trauma and psychological consequences even if you had started out as normal.

>>33242787
>First you say that the grass is greener and love and sex don't matter, and then you admit that you have unhealthy addictions to surrogates like chatbots and sex dolls to cope with the lack of it.

I think he was talking about my quip about feeling like a broke dude in a trailer park but with a family is better than a guy who is eating gourmet food on a tropical island. Because to me at least anyone in this country can get rich, if you have the motivation and the idea and work ethic you can make a lot of money in the US. Worst case for a broke person is being called lazy or an idiot. Thats how you are seen. But both of those can be changed. A person who has been single their entire life? No one has wanted them? That isnt fixable. Because even rapists have wives, even monsters have families. You have to be BELOW that. You have to be a category known as "subhuman" for no woman to ever even give you a chance. And by paying for it, you are just admitting that over and over again. These guys in trailer parks could get rich one day, but if you have gone nearly 30 years and no one has wanted to stay with you for longer than a week or two, there is something extremely wrong as you said. Its biological, its your soul.

I think we agree on everything else though. There is a part of me that just doesnt want to try dating in my 30s. Sure, maybe ill get lucky with someone but i doubt it, i missed out on the relaxing times of my teens and 20s and now any relationship i get into is going to be full of baggage and more responsibility. And plus, i would need to make far more money because i am still seen as below even rapists at this point. The level i would have to reach to level out those negatives is a long list and every person irl ive talked to about this has said this so im stuck. Why can i just be good enough?

>>33241949
Well then you must start by at least meeting or interacting with women. What interests or hobbies do you have that get you to meet women?

>>33243664
I do meet women fairly often the issue is I don't really want to be with any of them. Like I have no drive and no motivation to be with them. Even randomly sleeping with them I don't have a strong motivation for and my main problem is I end up going so long without it I do end up craving it when if I get basic physical touch such as hugs or anything the thought of having sex goes out the window. This would make a relationship with me a pain in the ass I think because most women expect you to act like a man and a man wants sex all the time.

Furthermore the personality of most women just repulses me. It's like they have never been told "no" in their lives and it shows. Or they have a general aura of "dance for me monkey" than actually treating you like a human being. Might be an American issue but I doubt it.

>>33244106
This is why I wish there was a pill or something I could take that would give me the same relief another person would give me. That way I wouldn't have to use another person. I wouldn't have to look for or bother anyone. But the closest I can find to something like that is an opiate and the downsides of that are obviously numerous plus it's not the same. It sucks too because it's not even fantasies, I know this works. It basically cures temporarily every problem I have.

>>33244106
Fair enough. Just realize it won't get you any haha.

>>33244238
Yeah i know, i have just been rejected so often that it just feels like a humiliation ritual i dont want to be a part of. Plus theres the problem of if she does say yes whats my plan then. The stakes are high as fuck nowadays and i cant out compete every single guy and theres a good chance nowadays i would be a very abusive partner just because women tend to piss me off every time ive had to deal with them long term. I just dont like them at all and wish i was gay but i want the physical and emotional stress relieving benefits that come with them. An escort would be perfect then, but they decided to get shadier, shittier and more expensive.

Despite all of this the urge to see an escort is still there and its high. Theres been a few times in the past few months ive debated just tanking the $500 price tag just to be with someone and not have to publicly humiliate myself but ive resisted. Because what the fuck is that price tag. But for me to be with a woman i have to become a literally different person entirely.

>>33237497 (OP)
I feel this too, I think most young men today do as well. I went from sleeping behind bushes after my parents died to working in research labs as a programmer. All that pain and suffering just to have some stupid whores tell me over and over again that I'm weird and creepy.

When a happy relationship is the one thing in life you can't get, it really does overshadow everything else. I have tons of fucking money. What am I even supposed to do with it if I can't buy a house or raise a family? There's only so much barbecue I can eat.

>>33244629
Dude agreed. And then comes the part of why bother even buying a house? Youre one dude. Why would you need more than two rooms? Why push yourself harder or do more when the possibility of being with a woman that actually likes you is zero? It makes life so pointless and no one around me understands it because they either have had someone in the past or have hooked up in the past. For them, being single is a CHOICE. For us its by FORCE. See the problem here?

For an average person they can say they are single because they dont go out and hit on girls or sign up for apps or whatever. But for us we know its not a lack of effort, its our very being. Its who we are. Unchangeable in a major way. Demands put on us by less deserving people. Its very frustrating.

Im debating massages too, that is a cheaper methods but at this point ive gone so long without a woman touching me that the idea of really anyone touching me feels wrong and stressful.

>>33239753
>>33244106
It really is an American issue, just so everyone knows. It's this shit culture we have where there are zero expectations placed on women and they get handed careers and free education.

It feels like they've never been told "no" because they really haven't ever been told that.

>>33244653
Getting a massage is fine. If you're going to go to one of "those" places, don't go in there thinking you'll get a handjob or whatever. Pay for the hour, put some extra money on the table, if she takes and it goes, enjoy it, if not, just let her leave the room and pick up your money and leave.

My entire family is dead and I stopped living with them when I was 14 years old. I've spent literally thousands of dollars on alcohol, porn, prostitutes, and massages.

I'm tall and strong, have a good career, good everything except being fucked socially and culturally. I think the best thing for American men to do is just grab a foreign wife and just do your best.

NOBODY is helping you. NOBODY will help you. So we're lost and just trying to figure it out. Sorry you also have to live this.

>>33244667
It makes me wonder if i should go back to my parents country in Europe and try dating there. I would make more money in the US but doing anything beyond that just feels like i am chasing a carrot i can never catch unless i get super lucky and everything is executed perfectly.

They absolutely have never been told "no" before either. I have seen so many women flip absolute shit hard when they are simply told no or that someone wont listen to their bullshit because they want to be charge of everything despite having no experience in it. The ego is off the charts and they know they can just find another guy who listens so why bother working with this one guy who is causing resistance?

Anyone here from Scandinavia? How is dating there? When i visited there a few times it felt like the women were far far more relaxed and "human" than in the US where they are brutally critical and mentally ill. Plus a swedish 5 is a US 9 but acts like a 5. Meanwhile in the US a 2 acts like a 50 and gets pissed if you treat her any different.

>>33244693
I've been trying to get citizenship in the country my ancestors were from originally. I would say do it if you can. Women in the US are fucked.

>>33244691
I know of two places ive got happy endings at consistently. Its obviously more than it should be but they are really really good at it. Just wish they would go further than a L1 but you get the idea. Only reason why i havent gone to it in over two years is just because i really thought i wouldnt have to do this. Like i wouldnt have to keep paying for sex. Like emotional connection was actual a possibility and i could experience what my friends have with love and all that but i am quickly learning no. That isnt possible.

Also foreign wives you have to vet heavily. The poly girl i mentioned earlier in this thread was from Indonesia. If they have a lot of american influence they will be basically just normal white women. But, on the flip side, if they DONT have enough american influence they wont want to be with you anyways and you wont really get along and at that point, just get a hooker.

>>33244721
My ancestors still live in Northern Europe. As in, uncles, aunts. Close family. Citizenship wouldnt be too hard i would just have to learn the language passed basic phrases. I would miss being able to own actual guns though.

>>33237497 (OP)
That’s your dna crying out. The dna of our ancestors that survived natural disaster that dropped our population to a thousand or less.

Ignore it, we deserve to die out. Use an AI waifu

>>33238961
>which i later learned she didnt want to do but just dealt with it because she was scared of me.
>>meanwhile she could sue a guy for looking at her the wrong way if she wanted to
Anon... that's such woman bullshit... I can't believe you fell for that she was just testing you to see how jealous you'd get hearing that and you failed

>>33245008
What was I supposed to do in that situation? Keep trying to touch her after she said no? Sounds like a good way to never speak to her again. Also when did I say anything about suing? Do you know how much lawyer fees are and how fucking broke women are on average(despite having higher salaries than men lol)? More than likely you would probably get pressed by a male friend of hers to knock it off or completely ghosted by her because you give off rape vibes.