i have not been able to find a single man that wanted to wait until marriage for sex, they all tried lying, coercing, and manipulating their way into getting into my pants. what do?

on another note, being a mom scares me. youre telling me i have to let some guy coom inside my vagina, fertilize my baby eggs, grow a baby for 9 months in my stomach, push it all out of me and then raise it all by myself? that sounds incredibly lonely, and i dont want to turn into one of those wine moms that have book club meetings every month. my mom did everything around the house growing up, as well as working the same hours as my dad. she managed finance, planned meals, did all the grocery shopping, lawn care, gardening, etc, all while my dad did nothing after coming home from work. it seems like most men expect me to be their barefoot pregnant house wife as well as their mother replacement. im a young zoomer and seeing all the incels talk about hating women and shitting on them for this that and the other really turns me off from even participating in a womanly role. i dont want to be feminine because that gets shat on im afraid to date men and talk to them

im a virgin too and i dont think i want to lose my virginity either. i dont want to be with someone who thinks i'm only good for my virginity. makes me feel like an object. i want to be treated like a human being who has feelings and emotions but its become harder to find that these days as a woman

>>33255008 (OP)
Are you telling these men upfront that you're saving yourself for marriage?

Also, the internet and your own personal experiences do not reflect reality. You are not your parents, you yourself don't know how people truly work at your age.

>>33255008 (OP)
LARP

>>33255008 (OP)
Male hands typed this.

>>33255008 (OP)
You aren't wrong. We men are largely pigs and assholes. Don't fall into the trap of parenthood when you have better ideas about how to live.

>>33255537
yeah, it do be like that. they treat you like some virgin mary for not spreading your legs, idk, im just a normal human being
>>33255579
yes, i am telling them up front.
>your real life experiences that happen on multiple occasions dont mean anything
is typical boomer cope
>>33255601
>>33255639
this is a true experience, go back to b and r9k calling everything a larp

You will price yourself out of the sexual market. No fucking man in 2025 is going to wait until marriage when there are girls out there not demanding such an absurd demand-- and for what-- just to put him in shackles, and then never let him tap anyways. Get fucking real.

Are you some kind of complete prude Or just mentally damaged?? You shouldn't hoe out or be a degenerate, but you need to know what sex actually is and isn't before you commit to anything. You're acting like you have the only pussy on the planet, when truth is, your virginity isn't functionally worth anything. Loyalty and effort is what matters, and men WANT sex from their romantic partner. That is you putting in effort for him, letting him have sex. Why on god's fucking earth would any man put up with you when you won't give him what he wants most out of you? You think he wants to marry or date you just for the company? Get. Fucking. Real.

You are not all that you think you are, and you WILL be a desperate wine mom until you come down to earth and realize you have to OFFER things to a man for him to want to give things to you, and marriage is only a benefit to YOU. No man is waiting for marriage. He gets nothing for it. You fucking narccisist. Wake up

Moids are sex obsessed pests. Giving birth damages your body and makes you a slave for at least 18 years when you will be raising the kid. And for what? The kid won't even get your name, it will get the moid's.

>>33255827
Filtering out coomers and retards by waiting is a feature, not a bug, incel.

>>33255862
Classix woman play. Talking in terms of sex because it's the only value you seem to comprehend. So you see my point. You're sitting here saying a man should give you resources while you WITHOLD what he wants from you. It doesn't work that way sweetheart. You wanted advice and I gave it. Sit here and seethe and use internet words all you want. If you don't put out you will be single. That's what you worried about. I told you what you have to do. Be a wine mom then. See if anyone cares.

>>33255861
Go back to lolcow

>>33255827
>>33255887
Fat sweaty hand typed this

>>33255008 (OP)
>dont want to be feminine because that gets shat on
there's never been a more effeminate society

>>33255887
I'm a man, dipshit. You're a subhuman spreading poison.

>>33255008 (OP)
I'll wait for you bby

>>33255827
>REEEEEEEE YOU CANT JUST WAIT UNTIL MARRIAGE GIVE ME SEX GIVE ME SEX!!!!!!
Why should we take you seriously again?

>>33255947
that doesnt mean everyone doesnt fucking hate it

>>33255974
It's facts, retard. Nice reading comprehension. You're a man using incel unrionically. Look at yourself. She won't let you hit it for white knighting. I'm telling the dipshit OP she has to leverage what she has to offer, and that is what will keep men around. It's not something nice to say out loud but it is the truth.

Sounds like she doesn't want a romantic partner, just a simp. All take no give. Would you willingly enter a marriage from a sexless relationship? I didn't say she had to be a whore, but not putting out at all, until fucking marriage where she can take him for half his shit whenever she gets pissy that he asks for what he was promised and doesn't want to give it then either? Sure man. Enable that. She still won't let you hit cuck

>>33255008 (OP)
Have you considered that you are severely mentally ill and retarded?

>>33255008 (OP)
You're taking a man who has a natural urge, either to reproduce or just get his rocks off, and then you're getting emotionally intimate with him while creating an arbitrary reason why you can't fuck. Unless your friendship is fully platonic and really wonderful then there's no reason for the man to tolerate this. You could have just said you're devout religious but you gave your game up when you said you don't want marriage or children either.

>>33256088
>assuming im the villain in every scenario possible
are you okay?
>>33256142
>have you considered
yes, i have, i havent come to a conclusion yet
>>33256173
i never said i didnt WANT marriage or children, just that i was reasonably afraid of it. the world is shit, and finding someone who isnt shit is incredibly hard. sorry i dont want to get manipulated, pumped, then dumped? if all they can value me for is sex, whats the point? why can we be homies first and then get to the sex?

>>33256319
So you're allowed to be afraid of marriage and or children while imposing a requirement on a horny guy that he should just linger for a couple years of his finite life in case you decide he's a worthy human being? I'm not saying you should be with total scunbags. I'm just trying to give you some sympathy for the average person here and recognize your role in this absurd dynamic. Keep in mind the average man is only getting sex and affection sometimes whereas a good looking woman or a gay man can get it on command.

>>33256353
>So you're allowed to be afraid of marriage and or children while imposing a requirement on a horny guy that he should just linger for a couple years of his finite life in case you decide he's a worthy human being?
yes, actually i am. as he should do the same with me, and any other woman he should date. i can control myself, why shouldnt he.

>>33256460
If you're going to be obstinate or are kinda retarded then you'll just have to live with the consequences of that. I've been abstinent for a decade and want marriage and kids, with the same sorta hesitation about rushing into it as you, and I would definitely be wary of dating you based on this conversation. You're not showing creativity to solve problems nor care for other people's lives.

>>33255827
I don't understand why people come to 4chan to get honest unfiltered advice like this and then seethe at it. This guy is telling it like it is. If you want someone to simp for you then you're on the wrong site but I suppose we all know that /adv/ is the most tourist heavy board.

>>33255008 (OP)
>i have not been able to find a single man that wanted to wait until marriage for sex
The ONLY men who will ever accept this are deeply religious ones and it's clear that you're not religious so none of these men would have any interest in you. If you want the sort of men you're describing then the only way you're going to find them is if you make an honest conversion to Christianity or Islam and start attending religious services and events until you meet a man at one.

You will NEVER find a normal guy through any other channel who will be fine with not touching you until marriage. Marriage is enough of a fucking minefield as it is without throwing in the added bonus of keeping sexual compatibility a secret until after marriage.

>>33256508
Please don't turn crazy white women into Islam or cultural conservatism. She needs to be flexible and see other people's existence. This includes being able to filter scumbags so that progress can actually be made with someone trustworthy. I agree creating the no sex before marriage demand is retarded outside of Islam, devout Catholicism, and the like.

>>33256319
>i dont want to get manipulated, pumped, then dumped

You're ironically setting yourself up for just that to happen.
Becaus ethe only guys who will play taht stupid game are the ones desperate and needy enough to shit all over theior own integrity for a crumb of pussy, or habitual liars.
As a Bard, I'd just politely tell you that this isn't my jam and then fuck off. Because this world is full of hot women, most of whom don't have your issues and enough of whom are into me to keep me covered anyways.
So why waste time with a woman who doesn't want to have sex? Worst of all, wants to nail me to the wall without even getting to know her properly ( which includes sharing sex and initimacy).
And to deliver the final knowckout, if you show no innate desire to have sex with me at all, I have to assume you're either not into me or have a really low sex drive or have mental issues around sex, both of which are obviously no gos.

So the only guys you are attracting with this are the ones willing to lie and manipulate pussy out of a woman.

>it seems like most men expect me to be their barefoot pregnant house wife as well as their mother replacement
Stop being online so much. Its not the real world, and most of it is poison for the mind.

>>33256591
*as a Brad, not Bard. I'm not a bard.

>>33256595
I thought you were saying you're a musician and get pussy from that.

>>33256598
I wish. I just have a good face, and apparently some women are really into guys with chest hair.

>>33256319
>villain
Another typical symptom of a narcissist. Playing the victim. No where did I call you a villain. I am telling you that you are operating in a way that is stopping you from DOING RELATIONSHIP BUSINESS with men. You don't want to be single? You HAVE to fucking put out in 2025. I will spell this out as simply as I can. You cannot keep any man around and expect him to jump from

>sexless relationship
to
>FUCKING MARRIAGE


What are you fucking smoking?? I am NOT telling you "have no standards." I am NOT telling you "don't make him earn it and wait," but to expect a man to wait THAT long. It will never fucking happen. That is your problem. You expect the fucking moon and no man is going to see enough value in you to give that when you won't even fucking play ball. All you fucking talk about is what's expected of the man, and why it's "his" fault. You show no signs of giving and people don't just do shit that you want without INCENTIVE and MOTIVATION.

What do you fucking bring to the table? What pussy on this fucking earth is worth suffering countless sexless years for when it's so easy to get? WHY would any man want to marry YOU? These are the questions you need to ask. And no, the singular fact that you have a hymen does not outweigh your selfish, shitty attitude towards the situation. The sooner you get the fuck over yourself, the sooner you can start working on your single issue.

>>33255008 (OP)
Have you considered becoming Lesbian?

>>33256591
Sounds like you would rather pump and dump virgin women than marry them because you are a whore yourself.

>>33256671
>You HAVE to fucking put out in 2025. I will spell this out as simply as I can.
>Narcissist
yeah im not reading all that bait

>>33256681
>pump and dump virgin women

Actually I went quite a way to explain that thats not my thing. If she wants to no longer be a virgin and try out taht whole sex thing, I'm down. If shes like OP, not worth the effort, and also I enjoy looking in the mirror. I'm not so pussy starved that I need to sink so low just for
a crumb of pussy.

>>33256681 #
If you think about relations like the most butthurt Islamic person but are just a crazy Caucasian then you're gonna have a bad time.

>>33256685 #
You and that anon are in an ego battle. Are you gonna let that totally stifle the exchange of information? Based on OP's replies to me it seems like she was only partially open to new information. It's the classic, I'm asking for advice but I'm actually better than all the people replying and also know better than them. Okay, then enjoy your problem I guess.

>>33256685
You are insane. You don't want sex?That's fine. You can just be asexual then. You don't want kids. Also, that's fine. You don't NEED to be married or reproduce or be in any kind of relationship. You are also in your right to be hesitant about having kids.

But why the fuck come to this board and bitch and moan about being single then? I mean what is your fucking problem? It doesn't sound like you actually want anything to do with men, just their assets.

You don't want a sexual relationship. You're just bitching that men won't give you what you want without giving back at this point. You will never keep a serious man around without it. Enjoy the cats and wine.

>>33256591
This guy also gets it. You are basically behaving like the female equivalent of the extreme red pill guys who create and fuck around with women they unironically hate. You clearly don't want a relationship.

>>33256706
>>33256708
your sOLuTiOnS were just you telling me i was a narcissist and shitting all over me and saying woe is the dude for making him wait a while. get your demoralizing shit away from me
of course i want a sexual relationship, but not from men who cant keep their dick in their pants for more than a few months. dating is for marriage and our society doesnt have morals anymore.

>>33256753
My solution is for you to seek therapy.
Coming up with odd ways to sabotage potential relationships and inventing phantasy scenarios of bad things that could happen is generally a symptom of traumatic relationships to parents or otehr persons of importance in childhood , leading to aviodant behaviour in adulthood.
And as someone who was somewhat of an incel myself, I know what I am talking about.

>>33256753
You're just distracting yourself by putting all your attention on the meanest comments and not comprehending the information being said to you by anyone in the thread whether they were nice or not.

>>33256753
You're only reading the parts you feel attacked on. Men like sex. Men want sex. Men keep women around in a commited relationship-- DATING-- because the womam PROVIDES SEX. What don't you understand?

Don't try and shift the blame to any moral failings of "society." Have things changed? Yes. But men have and always will want sex from their significant other. Whether you call it a fling, a girlfriend or a wife, and if you are just never willing to provide the one thing his male friends can't, he is not going to stick around for you. It is what it is, and probably always has been.

Past the discovery age, usually in our teens, men do not need female friends just for friends, and if they have them, it's with the implicit hope that she knows a single woman. Generally speaking, men do not want to be in sexless relationships with women who are not our mom. We can get out "friend" needs from other guys. But if you want to be someone's woman, that is a role where sex is REQUIRED, and you can't be upset that a man walks away when he isn't getting his needs met because you just aren't ever going to be willing until x or y.

Women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers or commitment. Why would a man open his gates to you when you have a million locks and CLOSED signs plastered all around your yard? It will not happen.

>>33256772
not mentioning the retarded advice isnt Not Comprehending it, why the fuck should i listen to someone who says
>YOU NEED TO PUT OUT IN 2025!!!! MEN NEED LE SEX!!!

>>33256776
Just let the thread die. Everything that people said was an ironic combination of insightful and abusive, but now you're just doing a childish gender preaching.

>>33256783
none of these people are giving me actual advice, theyre just telling me to be a whore and demoralize me lmaorofl. its over for virgin women

>>33256780
Your comments are like so unhinged level angry that it's making it look like you don't know how to read. I'm afraid you'll walk away learning nothing, just assuming you're smarter than the ten to twenty people on here because rawr I'm angry. I think you need to calm down and grow up.

>>33256088
> I didn't say she had to be a whore
That's exactly what you're saying. You're telling her that she needs to buy commitment from men with sex, that sex above anything else is what men want from her. You scoff at the notion that a man might want something else.

> Would you willingly enter a marriage from a sexless relationship?
Yes, because I'm waiting until marriage and expect the same.
I value commitment over sex, and I want to be exclusive with my wife. The only consistent way to do this is to not have sex outside of marriage.

>muh divorce rape, muh dick
You have a foot out the door already and think that sex without commitment is some kind of bargain for women.

And you want facts? Even controlling for religion, those who wait until marriage both divorce less and have happier marriages. They even report higher sexual satisfaction. There is zero reason for anyone who isn't a coombrained monkey to insist on sex without commitment.
What you said here
>>Why on god's fucking earth would any man put up with you when you won't give him what he wants most out of you?
is EXACTLY why waiting works so well. If a guy isn't getting anything from her other than who she is as a person, then him staying is proof for both that they're a good match. Compare this to the legions of selfish men who will happily waste years of a woman's life, never committing, because they get convenient sex and save on rent.
The supposed risks of waiting are, again, *features*. Not bugs.

>>33256785
That's true not many have given advice in the sense of telling you a literal prescription of how to date. They're trying to give you insight and to think about people other than yourself, which seems an insurmountable task.

>>33256780
Yes, sex is an important part of a relationship to almost everyone.
If you don't want to have sex and don't want to have an actually intimate relationship to anyone, thats totally fine. You can also find an asexual guy and have a no touchy relationship that way.

But again, I get the feleling you are currently just trying to square the circle, because you actually want an intimate relationship , yet are blocked from it due to mental issues. A feeling I know all too well.
So instead of screaming into imageboards, you should seek out someone who can help you fix your issues. Theres not really anything more to say.

>>33256776
Dating isn't commitment. The entire point is that you aren't committed, so that you can evaluate a potential spouse without being stuck to them.
You're a degenerate spastic spreading abject, objective poison to relationships because you're so far up your own ass that you're incapable of thinking without your dick.
Go be a subhuman somewhere else.

>Why would a man open his gates to you when you have a million locks and CLOSED signs plastered all around your yard?
Because I want a special relationship with the woman I spend the rest of my life with, and she can only reasonably do that if she says no to dudes until she's said the important "yes". Sex pests like you should always be shot down.

>>33256786
You coomers came in to the thread just to browbeat OP and tell her to whore herself out. Any reasonable person would be annoyed by that kind of treatment. If anything is "unhinged", it's the obsession you mongoloids show for convincing women you will never meet to whore themselves out, despite there being zero demonstrable benefit to it.

>>33256797
No that's called courtship which is an archaic practice but more power to you if you can get someone to do it. I have full respect for Catholics who wait until marriage because of their false gods or whatevs. I have full respect for arranged marriages if the father is a good man and not a tyrant. What I don't have respect for is this psychopathic incel rage.

>>33256790
It's incredible that you chimps can't comprehend *waiting* for sex, and equate it with "no sex, ever".

>>33256797
>Because I want a special relationship with the woman

You cannot force things like this though. Maybe you just really wake up her pussy, she fucks chad on the side one day and finds out that she likes having her hair pulled after all. Many such cases!

>>33256805
>*waiting* for sex

I comprehend that very well. Why in the world would I ever do that though? Seems like its just a huge waste of time. What makes your pussy so unimaginably special?

>>33256808
>>33256802
Starting to think it's more likely OP is a male psychopath pretending to be a female in a deranged attempt to make a point. That or her thread is being hijacked by one. In short, fuck off, nutcase. And see >>33256804

And yeah I guess I'm a coomer because I've turned women away and haven't had nor pursued sex in ten years. That makes me a big coomer, huh? What a psycho. Many of us are telling you it's okay to find a conservative person who will wait to have sex, but not if your proverbial lawn is covered in signs that say "I'm a raving lunatic." And yes, realistically, making people wait until marriage shrinks your pool by like 90%, and for good reason.

>>33256804
>No that's called courtship
Okay, sophistic vermin, then why do people date before marriage?

>What I don't have respect for is this psychopathic incel rage.
Look in the mirror. You're arguing on the same side as a guy who is spewing literal incel talking points about "divorce rape" and cuck fantasies about Chad. YOU are the one who is fighting tooth and nail, with zero evidence whatsoever, to demand that all men "need" sex without commitment, or else there's no reason for them to be in a relationship.
You're the incels.
And yet you have the gall to call someone advocating *voluntary* celibacy an incel. It's an astounding lack of self-awareness, even for this shithole of a board.

>>33256810
That's the point. Waiting filters out men who think getting themselves off is more important than commitment.

>>33256815
What do you think "conservatism" means, moron?
It's only in the past 50 years that sex outside of marriage became normalized, and it demonstrably hasn't been a benefit to marriage.
>making people wait until marriage shrinks your pool by like 90%
Yes. That's the point. Filtering out people with no self-control and who have obviously incompatible values. Oh no, promiscuous garbage doesn't want me. How horrible, what ever shall I do?

And since you wankstains have been pretending to care about facts, have some:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2012.00996.x/abstract
>Bivariate results suggested that delaying sexual involvement was associated with higher relationship quality across several dimensions. The multivariate results indicated that the speed of entry into sexual relationships was negatively associated with marital quality, but only among women."

http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2010-25811-011
>"Both structural equation and group comparison analyses demonstrated that sexual restraint was associated with better relationship outcomes, even when controlling for education, the number of sexual partners, religiosity, and relationship length."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12009
>"The research objective was to test whether the number of sexual partners was associated with sexual quality, communication, relationship satisfaction, and relationship stability, while controlling for relationship length, education, race, income, age, and religiosity, using the two competing theories of sexual compatibility and sexual restraint. The results, with a sample of 2,654 married individuals, indicated that the number of sexual partners was associated with lower levels of sexual quality, communication, and relationship stability, providing support for the sexual restraint theory."

Gee, it's almost like waiting was and remains a standard for a reason.

>>33256817
>Sophistic vermin
Not even pretending to be a woman anymore. This incel psychopath is beat red with his veins bulging out.

I'll explain it to you really slowly. Courtship is a very old practice. Dating is a new one, new as in it became super dominant over the past century. They're two different practices.

What you're saying above "divorce rape" and "cuck fantasies about Chad", I know I'm on 4chan, but I'm not indoctrinated into your incel cult so I really can't tell what you're saying. In conclusion, please seek professional help before you commit a terror attack or just spend the rest of your life in misery. We don't want bad things for you.

>>33256817
>getting themselves off is more important than commitment.

Why should any man give you commitment for commitments sake without you allowing any intimacy and keeping him at an armas length? Again, you're just filtering for weirdoes and losers.
I think deep down you know that no normal non-creep would ever take that deal, which is why you do it and can easily avoid relationships while putting the blame on men.

>>33256827
Why is that my fault? I haven't dated since high school. Just go assassinate your senators or whatever you're gonna and leave our board alone. Your brain is just a malstrom of shit right now and you can't read.

>>33256797
Tell me you're a virgin without saying it. You are so ignorant. I won't even get into that "dating isn't comittment" comment, because that's the test run, which you would know if either of you had any actual experience or understanding on dating.

I am not encouraging whoreish acts. I am not saying you shouldn't have a special relationship before sex. I AGREE with that sentiment, but both you and OP can't seem to read what I'm telling you without this moralfagging or religious lens. Plain and simply, your "ideals" do not apply to everyone. And I think, honestly at the end of the day, it's some fear around sex stopping both of you from understanding how intersexual dynamics work. Whatever, that's your own thing to figure out. But the idea that two opposite sex people get together for sexless commitment of their own free will in the modern age is absolutely insane.

OP wants to know why she can't find men waiting for marriage. We can sit and argue all day about how or why but the answer? They don't want to. End of story. So if you want a real relationship with a man, you have to put out. That is what I'm saying. And you can do that with someone you trust and care about. You should.

But holding off and finally doing it after years and having it fall apart and not work after you commit to something when you're still unsure of the sex life-- the REASON you get with an opposite sex person to begin with-- is a disaster waiting to happen.

You both put sex on this fucking pedestal and it CAN be good. All that you presume it is. But it can also just be physical pleasure. So what. I completely agree that you should keep it sacred to your own personal taste, but sex until marriage is and always has been a mistake. Like sure, let's get married forever when we still don't know how the sex will be-- that won't sabotage everything you both spent so much time on.

You both need to find some way to de-mystify sex because you're acting like ignorant children about it

>>33256829
I called you a sophist for drawing a distinction without a difference. Call it "courtship" or "dating". The basic fact is you can break it off whenever you want, for any reason, with no consequences. That's the point. And that isn't commitment.

> I'm not indoctrinated into your incel cult
That was the other dumbass arguing with me. Here, I'll quote him: >>33256088
> until fucking marriage where she can take him for half his shit whenever she gets pissy
>>33256808
> she fucks chad on the side one day and finds out that she likes having her hair pulled

Again, zero self-awareness. Staggering levels of motivated anti-reasoning just so you can be "right" despite spewing nothing but categorical, demonstrable bullshit with no evidence whatsoever.
Blow it out your ass.

>>33256839
It's your fault because you're pretending like it's some totally crazy innovation to wait until marriage, when that literally is the conservative pattern, one with far better historical AND empirical support.

>>33256842
You need help dude.

>>33256846
I didn't do any of those things in the world you don't like. You being alone might have as much to do with you being insane as it does politics and stuff. The two interact in a very bad way.

>>33256837
>Why should any man give you commitment for commitments sake
It's not "for commitments sake". The point is to commit to HER. To get to know her, to see how they get along, whether their goals and values align. THAT is the foundation of commitment. Sex doesn't buy that, and it can't make up for the absence of any of it. At most--and arguably worst--it masks those glaring issues by giving people a temporary incentive to ignore them. And that's exactly what shitty men want--they get off, she whores herself out, and she's left holding the baggage when they dip out and move on to the next sack of meat.

>>33256855
Then more than ninety percent of people are shitty, I guess due to not being as intelligent as you are, and now you have to be a crazy white Islamic convert so you can live in the shadow of Puritan England.

>>33256855
You have never had sex. Sex can also bring couples closer together and HAS for eons without any explicit social contract. You have the cart before the horse with your logic. Two individuals do not need anyone's approval to bond during sex, and fucking with another's physical form does not magically erase everything else you see in that person.

With all due respect, fuck off and stop talking about things you clearly haven't experienced. You gain nothing from this whiteknight shit here

>>33256841
>I am not encouraging whoreish acts
Yes, you are. The fact that you keep insisting on decoupling sex from commitment is the essence of ALL promiscuity.

> But the idea that two opposite sex people get together for sexless commitment of their own free will in the modern age is absolutely insane.
Except it happens and continues to show consistently better outcomes than anything else, even controlling for religion. I even posted sources ITT. Go ahead, prove me wrong. I'll grovel for forgiveness if you manage it.

But you won't, because like all the other troglodytes I've argued with, you're unlikely to even read the sources, and you will never bother posting any evidence yourself, because it doesn't exist. You have nothing other than colossal arrogance and a head full of amoral garbage to repeat ad nauseam as if it means anything. You have sources staring you right in the face, telling you in no uncertain terms, and what do you do? You ignore it and just keep repeating the opposite, because you're just that smart. Total waste of oxygen.

>>33256853
You're insisting that people should do those things, otherwise you deem them raving lunatics. If you define "reasonable person" as someone who only agrees with the post-70s developments of the sexual "revolution", you're not only a disingenuous snake but psychotic yourself.

>>33256891
You're just beyond comprehending things. Discouraging one extreme does not equal encouraging the other. I am telling OP to move towards the center, and that sex is s necessity if she wants a relationship. She can make him wait a few months, sure. But marriage is unreasonable. Stop trying to both complicate the message AND moralfag on an anonymous board, for everyone's sake. You are projecting so much bullshit and creating unecessary noise because you feel like you have something to fight against here. Of all places

>>33256863
>hen more than ninety percent of people are shitty
Yes, now you've got it. Now go back to your cesspit instead of trying to drag others into it.

>>33256887
>You have never had sex.
No fucking shit. I don't want sex outside of marriage. I'm not married.
>Sex can also bring couples closer together
Except it doesn't EVER last. Yes, there is a place for sex. That place is within commitment. Within marriage. It cannot replace the essential foundations of a marriage. Meshing personalities, compatible goals, and shared values. But it does give an extraneous motivation for people to stay together despite the absence of those things. That's why hookups are a thing. That's why men can and do play house for years only to walk out because they don't want to commit.

And if you're as sick as I am of going in circles, why don't you look at actual facts available to us, something you've never bothered to provide in your infinite conceit: >>33256827
They unambiguously show that waiting works. Far from being the "insane catastrophe" you claim, it is demonstrably the BEST thing to do for the health and happiness of marriage.

>>33256891
Nah the flaw in your logic is you think you sound reasonable and not like someone on the verge of a terror attack. I already said I am totally accepting of people who wait until marriage and sometimes it's a very great thing. You just discount that because you're deranged to the point of not having theory of mind and being unable to read.

>>33256802
You are legitimately incapable of seeing things outside of your own perspective. You are a moron.

>>33256855
>To get to know her, to see how they get along

That normally entails sex. If you go off script, don' tbe surprised when most people aren't interested. Its like you unilaterally declaring that loud farting is from now on a part of polite conversation. Some (weird) people won't mind, the rest will flip you the bird. Same thing.

>>33256917
Stop reality checking him he's going to pop like a balloon.

>>33256907
I am not interested in reading some chart on this topic that you are arguing is supposed to be some deep personal experience. You are just contradicting whatever you're arguing by presenting numerical data for this "spiritual argument" and muddying the thread further.

Please stop. You have not had sex, and you do not understand how men and women work. You literally have no experience and no advice worth giving here. Charts and studies and shit is not equivalent to real life personal experience. You're just here looking for a fight for reasons unknown and assuming I'm some whore encouraging degeneracy.

I am telling OP why men don't want to wait for sex and what she has to change if she doesn't want to be single. Hard facts to face maybe, but I am not encouraging another hard extreme. I know it's hard to understand when you're on the other end, but you are reading everything here with such a thick lense, you may as well be blind. I do appreciate the admittance. But please stop trying to advise on what you know nothing of. It isn't such a black and white topic, and you and OP are really failing to see the grey areas.

>>33256905
This isn't a debate over degree. It's a debate over substance. Either you value commitment over sex, or you don't.
There isn't a "midpoint" between your position and mine. You're insisting that sex MUST come before commitment. That's diametrically opposed to the ideal of exclusive commitment, of monogamy, behind waiting until marriage.

And your reasoning for it is patently false. It's not a theory. Every piece of evidence points in the same direction, and not yours.
>that sex is s necessity if she wants a relationship
No, it is not.
>But marriage is unreasonable
No, it is not.
Read >>33256827. Look up the subject yourself and post your own evidence to the contrary. If you can't even be assed to read the modest amount of actual evidence ITT, you're showing yet again the depths of bad faith you're willing to go.

>>33256909
Oh, how accepting, you think people who wait until marriage are deranged and believe in fairy tales.
No shit, I'm angry. There are two incredibly stupid people barging into a thread with less than no evidence, blithely ignoring the facts waved in their faces, and loudly proclaiming anyone who doesn't take their word as received doctrine is a psychopathic woman and incel.

>>33256911
You have spent half an hour insulting me without even acknowledging the evidence I posted, much less engaged with it. I heard your perspective. That's why I posted the evidence to directly counter it. Do you understand mine, or are you so absurdly conceited that you think you already know everything worth knowing? This is rhetorical. I know you won't read it, and you'd be incapable of understanding even if you did.

>>33256940
Men, women, and nonbinaries sometimes wait for sex. But usually not, and particularly not for a raving incel lunatic. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Explaining is not excusing. I'm thinking OP was a dude the whole time.

>>33256943
No I said you are insane and you need help. I've been outside and met real people who waited for sex, sometimes until marriage, and I've heard stories about it. The stories are surprisingly okay. You're reading whatever you want into replies because there's something wrong with your head.

>>33256940
Oh, gee, would you look at that, who could've predicted that the degenerate monkey will ignore anything that might prove him wrong, because he's just THAT right?
>Charts and studies and shit is not equivalent to real life personal experience.
They're the aggregated experiences of many people. If you actually practiced what you preached about "understanding others", you'd get out of your own thick skull and be open to learning from others, instead of just doubling down and projecting that because YOU demand sex, all men do and all women should put out or shut up.

>I am telling OP why men don't want to wait for sex
And I posted evidence showing that it not only happens but has demonstrably positive outcomes. Your response?
>didn't read, lol
Yet you call others insane.

>>33256917
And like I've said the whole thread: the fact that waiting filters out human garbage who equate sex with being is a BENEFIT. Even leaving aside your conceit, shouldn't it be obvious to you that someone who values waiting doesn't see eye to eye with you? That it's an obvious difference in values, one which is far more apparent when waiting than not?

>>33256961
> I've been outside and met real people who waited for sex, sometimes until marriage, and I've heard stories about it. The stories are surprisingly okay.
Then why are you spending hours of your time insulting OP for wanting to wait and calling anyone who defends the idea insane?

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you think it's wrong, argue why. Don't cop out and say you don't care after calling people stupid lunatics for disagreeing with your unsubstantiated bullshit.

>>33256965
You're posting a whole lot of drivel for people who aren't gonna read it.

>>33256974
For the fourth time, I don't just tolerate people waiting for sex until marriage I think it's okay and in some cases very good. This doesn't fit into your insane persucstory crusader incel complex, so your brain doesn't even process it. You need help.

>>33256975
Back at you, but I'm the only one who has posted actual evidence.
And it's not meant for you two nitwits. You have neither the intellectual honesty to read it nor the intelligence to make use of it.
I posted the sources to show clearly what you lot are: a bunch of self-assured vermin with a lot of hot air and no substance, ever. You will endlessly berate people for disagreeing with you, pronounce anyone who disagrees ignorant and unreasonable, and then shamelessly refuse to even look at actual evidence right in front of you.

>>33256978
>I don't just tolerate people waiting for sex until marriage I think it's okay and in some cases very good
Then explain your previous posts calling people insane and stupid for wanting to wait. That's the source of my irritation. If you don't have a point to make, then fuck off.

>>33256965
Dude, go somewhere and take a breath. I think you've lost the plot somewhere in this self-inflicted rage. You're just devolving into projection and namecalling anons in a fight for something you don't even have experience in. You're arguing in this thread about something you believe to be a personal experience and you're using some potentially flawed data to do so. I'm not going to suggest where this comes from, but suffice to say, your ramblings have derailed the thread even more than OPs responses. You have outfooled the initial moronic woman. Congrats

>>33256989
Are you an AI or something?

>Then explain your previous posts calling people insane and stupid for wanting to wait. That's the source of my irritation. If you don't have a point to make, then fuck off.
I called YOU insane. Whatever intelligence you have is put to waste because you're so deranged that your theory of mind and reading comprehension aren't functioning. Or maybe I'm the world's biggest idiot for arguing with an AI.

>>33256996
I will be happy to take half an hour off. Why don't you take the time to read the evidence before continuing to post abject falsehoods?

And good lord, how can you complain about "projection and namecalling", when you did that before I even showed up? The first thing you posted was to call OP psychotic for waiting because it was inconceivable to you that any man would?

>>33257002
No, you (>>33255827) called OP insane before I even saw this thread. Maybe I mixed you up with the other waste of oxygen ITT, I don't know, but both of you have been arguing on the same side and in the same manner the entire time.
If you're going to call me insane for hitting back against insults based on literal lies, you're either hopelessly retarded or might as well have his same position.

>>33257016
OP also didn't demonstrate theory of mind nor reading comprehension and just raged the whole time, which is why I suspect you're samefagging. If you're not the same anon then why don't you marry each other?

>>33257016
That isn't him. That's me. And OP is insane. You both are. I was not wrong calling her a narcissist, but I didn't even call her "psychotic," even if it is turning out to be true lmao

I was addressing the topic of the thread. You just came in and started assuming any advice I gave was encouraging degeneracy because you can't read. You literally just up and whiteknighted everything here and muddied the points further, and for free too. Incredible

>>33257023
OP is a LARP, I already said as much from the beginning.
The dead giveaway is the deliberate lack of attention to proper writing (capitalization, punctuation) and mixing in of what OP thinks are women's concerns.

But the guy who responded to OP--the post I quoted--and got me started was absolutely serious. And also absolutely, objectively wrong. Something neither of you have even bothered looking at the evidence for.

>>33257029
OK, so you admit that the very first post you made, before I even opened the thread, is insulting OP for waiting and saying that "no man" will ever put up with it.
You struck first, don't play victim when somebody responds in kind when that kind of baldfaced arrogance mixed with utter stupidity rubs them the wrong way.

> started assuming any advice I gave was encouraging degeneracy
It is encouraging degeneracy because you've done nothing but berate both the practice and ideals behind waiting until marriage for sex. Moving the goalposts of what "degeneracy" means to you is irrelevant. You're telling OP and anyone who thinks like OP to abandon their values and standards, and just have sex without commitment (but dating totally is commitment, I forgot--how convenient to redefine words to mean the opposite).

It's not a one-way street. You think I'm insane. I think you're a degenerate. The issue is, only one of us is backed up by evidence. You are arguing for a practice which objectively leads to more divorce, lower marital happiness, and even lower sexual satisfaction. You are flatly wrong. I made it very easy for you to take the knife and twist it--you just had to find one source to back up your own point. But you'd rather sit around and keep up the posturing invective because, deep down, you know you're full of shit, too.

>>33257061
Technically divorce leads to marital happiness because the unhappily married get divorced. It's also women who initiate the divorce a big majority of the time. One day in your life you're gonna have to stop shilling politics.

>>33257034
It's not wrong though. Not for most of the population. If you want to be a repressed miserable virgin who relies on data to talk on topics of sex that's your choice, but it does not represent most people, and advice from such a person fighting this imaginary argument for what, 5% of the population? is not going to help her find a solution.

I told her why men don't want to wait. She can adapt, which she won't, or be stubborn like you and remain sexless and angry. You can't have both, and me telling her to get off her high horse is NOT me saying fuck around and do whatever. You're both beyond help though clearly.

My answer is there. If you can't face it that's fine, but don't come in here moralfagging because you don't understand human psychology on wants and needs.

>>33257061
You know the leading cause of divorce? Marriage. Do you know the first sign of a failing marriage? Dead bedroom. You are absolutely delusional if you think you can separate sex from comittment. It's truly not living in reality

>>33255008 (OP)
If I were to humor this as real, are you yourself some prize or what? I assume to be posting here you aren't. So what's it matter?

>>33257070
>because the unhappily married get divorced.
Uh, yes. So what are you suggesting? That people who wait until marriage are also predisposed to go for a hair-trigger divorce the second they're unhappy? If that were the case, they'd have very high divorce rates. Yet their rates are the lowest.
Conversely, if they're predisposed to not divorce, you'd expect them to be very unhappy. Yet they're the happiest.
There is no way you can spin this other than waiting until marriage corresponding to positive marital outcomes.

>>33257081
>I told her why men don't want to wait.
You yourself just acknowledged that some men do. Not a huge amount, but she only needs to find one, and presumably, anyone who thinks like OP is already predisposed to find someone with similar values.

>>33257093
Dead bedroom is a symptom, not a cause. I have sources on that, too, but how about you engage with the first set before I spoonfeed you with more data you can't understand?
>You are absolutely delusional if you think you can separate sex from comittment.
I'm not. Sex is a part of marriage. Marriage is the commitment. You're the one insisting on sex before commitment, as a condition for commitment.

>>33257029
>i am insane and narcissistic and psychotic for not having sex with random men
i thought i would receive some honest advice here since you guys are so much about that, but youre just the same as reddit. baiting, demoralizing, and being a mean troll who thinks hes winning an imaginary argument. the entire thread you have done nothing but spew insults and call me a retarded woman for doing essentially nothing wrong. the thread is over, anyone who claims to be me is pretending because im not reading this shit anymore

>>33257120
You're stupid not because you're a woman, but because you want to play the game of dating without doing any business, and you don't understand how much sex matters to a man and why. You're stupid because you are choosing to remain ignorant and not read the advice and act like you've been attacked. Relationships ARE transactional like a business and you need to open shop if you want to buy and sell. Other women are. If you don't want to do business then fine, lose customers. The answer is really as simple as that. Sell what the customer wants or go bankrupt. If you can't understand that that's why, and you want to attribute that to your gender, go for it. Stay stupid and unhappy with your intersexual exploits.

>>33257161
>posts this
>"I respect people who wait until marriage"
Absolute clown

>>33257169
I respect the choice. But you are actively rejecting the reality of the answer to the original question. Most men DON'T want to wait, and the ones who do are just repressed and in denial, and often end up exploding over that later. So keep wasting your time with your unrealistic standards of waiting until marriage in 2025. But you will not manage to find a man who is willing to wait that you will also actually be attracted to by the time sex comes. And then you have a whole new set of problems. Men want sex from you. That's why they enter into relationships with women. Stop acting like that in itself is evil offensable act on your innocence. You're on 4chan for fucks sake.

>>33257169
You see how the users are anonymous? That means you can't tell who said what. no theory of mind having little bitch.

>>33257229
Telling someone you respect their choice while calling them deranged for it isn't exactly credible..

>>33257236
You can respect an insane choice that goes against the odds. It doesn't make it any less stupid. But don't complain when you look for a needle in a haystack and don't ever find it after refusing to listen to the reason why there aren't more needles.

>>33255008 (OP)
I coerced an ex into having sex and while she was sad the first couple of days eventually she came to enjoy sex greatly
she became one of those gfs that wakes you up rubbing your junk because she wants a morning quickie before going to college.
you should try.

>>33255008 (OP)
how old are you?

>>33255008 (OP)
waiting for marriage to have sex makes 1000x more sense when people get married at like 18.

>>33257353
Look up "Western European Marriage Pattern".
Going back to the 1300s, the median age of marriage for women has almost never gone below 20. In towns and during economic downturns, it could climb into the late 20s.
And these span times far more conservative than today. Waiting works. It doesn't need super early marriages (which are counterproductive, given instability from marrying that young).

>>33256508
>throwing in the added bonus of keeping sexual compatibility a secret until after marriage.
Going to throw it out here that I believe sexual compatibility is a myth propagated by sluts and fuckboys. If two people are virgins, they will start with each other, learn each other's bodies, learn what each of them like and dislike, and build a sexual rapport together. Compatibility is a concern for people who have already have tons of sex and have thus developed expectations and demands

>>33255008 (OP)
You have to bring something to the table to get what you want. I can't imagine protecting and providing for a woman for years and getting nothing that I want.

>>33255008 (OP)
OP. You can be a normal functioning adult without having a bf, husband or having children. You are correct men only want you for sex. Lying and threats and force normal to them and if they are mad you die.

But I on occasion like a real penis inside and even one of the brutes on me. So when I do have sex I disappear. I know pretty quick if I'm going to have sex with a guy so I move to that and do not want to know anything about him. Oh and most important NEVER EVER LET THEM EJACULATE INSIDE YOU. MAKE THEM COVER IT. Men are irresponsible and they believe everything is your fautl.

>>33255008 (OP)
I don't understand your question.
It doesn't sound like you have a problem that needs resolving. You don't want to lose your virginity, you can't find men who want to wait until marriage, and you don't want to be a mother or participate in a feminine role in society anyway.
So just carry on as you are?

>>33255008 (OP)
This generation is cooked. Most of us (men AND women) are not going to end up in committed relationships. My point is not that you should give up all hope. Maybe you come across someone you resonate with later, but you shouldn't count on it and be ashamed if it doesn't happen. I know there are good men and women out there, because I've met them. It's important to not overgeneralize the opposite gender. There are exceptions to the rule. Also, something I've noticed is that people never mention how the conditions are contrived to lower the birth rate. On the news you may get the impression that "the experts" are concerned about the birth rate being too low. In reality there are more than enough people to keep society functioning. If the birth rate was dangerously low they would make significant changes to make it easier, but they don't. It's not complicated. Young people are being distracted, demoralized and priced out from starting a family. Unless you have support from others that prevent your place from being stolen you can only try to stand up for yourself. Others will be more than ready to take what you lose and fill the void you leave after you die.

>>33255008 (OP)
Why do you want to wait until marriage to have sex. For religious reasons? Anyway if that’s what you’re after, there’s not many men around who are interested. You’d need to only date significantly religious men in all likelihood. I’d look there.

Anyway your anxieties about sex and motherhood are your own. Ultimately it is up to you to resolve them. The course of nature is maturation and reproduction. If you choose to avoid sex and reproduction you will probably pay a big price unless you are one of the few women who are fine being alone and childless at 40. But most women aren’t. Anyway, I would refine how you are looking for men and confront some of these fears and anxieties. A woman who cannot deal with men and a man who cannot deal with women are both failures. They both usually pay a price for it.

>>33255008 (OP)
Larp

>>33259278
>They both usually pay a price for it.
In these times the price is insignificant.