Apologies if I've messed this post up somehow, I'm new and just stupid in general I fear </3. Also image isn't of my mice.

On Reddit the general idea is that for 1-3 mice does or 1 mouse buck (obviously) the minimum is 80cm x 50cm x 50cm for an enclosure. How did we come to that conclusion? Surely the only ethical way is to keep them in a cage the size of their territory in the wild or how far they travel a day in the wild, no matter how inconvenient that is to us size-wise.

How do I even know if mine are feeling cramped? I have a doe (pet-type) with three of her doelings in less than the recommended (about 50 x 30-40cm?) and it's not like they're running in circles 24/7. No interest in the giant ass wheel and don't want to come out to run on the sofa/my bed some days. But I guess that could be mousey depression or something. Idk lol. I am thinking of upgrading soon if I'm allowed to.

Lesser animals are dumb as fuck and aren't really aware of the wider world. You can keep mice in desktop cages or cram 20 chickens into a shed and they're happy.

We come to that conclusion by noting the size at which they stop glitching out and chewing off their own feet like defective AIs, because at their lower level of development that's basically what they are.

>>5019229
They certainly aren't humans but I'm too scared of being wrong about their intelligence level lol. The guy I got them from kept them in a cage bigger than mine by a bit but had wayyy more mice than I do. He literally told me to just reach my hand in and take whatever I want as long as I pay lol.

I don't think they're suffering or in desperate need of space (the doelings are still very small) and enrichment is way more important than space to a point, but I'm scared of being wrong I guess. I'm not animal smart. Just a genetics nerd. I basically bought them as a genetics experiment and ended up loving the little guys.

>>5019241
does a man suffer for not getting to walk over to mars?

the average idiot is about 5'10" 200lbs
a mouse weighs 1oz or 1/3200th as much
the average idiot sticks to their home town for their entire life and rarely travels that far in it! to the grocery store maybe, roads extend the distance quite a bit when on foot they would prefer to stay within a mile
so a mouse should be overly fine with 2 square feet and occasional jaunts out to 10 square yards would be exhilarating

>>5019227 (OP)
I am not sure if it applies to all animals, but I am good friends with a pet store owner who is part of the union of reptile and amphibian representatives in my country. I approached them recently to buy a snapping a turtle and they shocked me by telling me outrightly I would not be getting one. When I asked why they told me that I did not have the floor space in my home to care for an adult as they know my house well due to prior enclosure installations. Now I did do prior research and the online guideline on snapping turtle size was a minimum 4ft pond style tank which I did have room for, so when they told me I had no room I asked how they calculated enclosure size.

According to them a good guideline for calculating the minimum size enclosure for a given animal is around 4x the length and 3x the width of its body size. That way there will always be enough room for them to circle and move around freely. However this guideline is flexible for largely stationary animals like terrestial amphibians who don't roam but bury or anchor themselves. If an animal is arboreal it gets tricky as you will need it to be taller and usually if your enclosure is already wide you match the height. So something like a 3ft wide tank would be 3ft tall for instance, but smaller arboreals like tree frogs, geckos or birds will need a height greatly exceeding width which tends to be 3x or 4x the width.

Another thing is free roam requirements. You can get away with smaller enclosures if you allow your animal good strerches of time free roaming during the day. So if you have a parrot or something like a dog or even a large lizard lizard such as a tegu or monitor you could have it in a cage/kennel/enclosure that is not exactly 4x or 3x in return for having a third of the day at the very least dedicated to them free roaming around the house and preferably with them voluntarily returning to their enclosure which I know with dogs/cats/lizards they absolutely do if cared for.

>>5019650
>cats
Whoops, meant parrots lol

>>5019227 (OP)
>>5019650
In addition if you have multiple animals in an enclosure a safe way of taking all of them into account is adding to the multiplication of 4x / 3x. So two animals would be 8x /6x, but as long as length is accounted for you can get away with keeping width roughly the same. If arboreal you can get away with having two animals in the same size enclosure due to height depth, but any more than 2 will reuire the size to increase.

>>5019227 (OP)
>>5019650
>>5019655
This is all minimums mind you and I am only following what my friend told me as a person who works in the pet the trade and for advocacy.

>>5019229
>they aren’t chewing themselves apart so therefore they must be happy
This message is sponsored by Chinese sweatshop owners

>>5019658
To be fair this could apply to dog shelters too

>>5019229
I'm really glad this is happening to humans. Irony is the sweetest treat in the world.

So either - the moment the animals stop behaving dangerously to themselves, or some kinda calculation based on body weight/size. I think you just gotta do what works for your situation maybe? Idk lol. There will always be a better cage and home so where do we draw the line? I could go on forever constantly upgrading. There is no cage size that the mice won't fully cover in one night. I think my mice are fine because they're never trying to chew their way out or desperately try to escape whenever there is an exit.

oops im the OP btw :-)

>>5019227 (OP)
dunno about the does but that's excessive for a buck
reddit, facebook, etc tend to go extremist and become like the meme with the betta in a giant tank

>>5019650
Lower animals don't "roam" for pleasure or to build memories lol, they are looking for food, good temperatures, and to fuck.

>>5019650
Keeping a dog or a parrot like that is abusive. They have significantly more cognitive complexity than a tegu and will develop abnormal, neurotic behaviors EXACTLY like a human.
>This is why some peoples dogs never shut the fuck up and are bitey shitheads btw

A dog needs 24/7 free roaming. All around the entire house. And the entire backyard. AND 2-3 hours of exploring everything outside.

>>5020638
If you beat a human enough while starving them and using food to manipulate their behavior they will voluntarily cage themselves eventually. It's how jail works.

Petfags seriously allow such "owners" among their ranks.