Thread 60779198

Welcome to the /XMR/ Monero General, dedicated to the discussion of the world's most widely adopted privacy coin.

Monero payments are anonymous, low-fee by design and fully fungible, meaning users can send XMR globally without issue and receive XMR without having to worry about tainted coins. Battle-tested privacy tech (Ring Signatures, Stealth Addresses and RingCT) ensures that critical TX data cannot be gleaned from the Monero blockchain. Thus by default, the TX history of all Monero users is kept hidden from the prying eyes of adversaries, with TXs being optionally transparent via the aid of a view key.

Monero algorithmically ensures low TX fees by employing a dynamic (elastic) block size that can "stretch" to easily accommodate sudden TX spikes.

Monero's bespoke mining algorithm, RandomX, is optimized for devices using general-purpose CPUs e.g. desktops, laptops, smartphones, tablets, keeping the barrier to entry low and ASICs out of the equation.

Monero's tail emission - 0.6 XMR every block forever - financially incentives for-profit miners to keep mining, helping boost long-term network security. This constant linear inflation asymptotically trends to zero and is offset somewhat by a steady rate of coin loss.

Monero has thus far proven to be the only altcoin capable of overcoming BTC's network effect by driving it out of the darknet economy BTC dominated for over 10 years. Monero is now also starting to overtake BTC in clearnet commerce as well. See below.

If you still have questions, feel free to ask and a MoneroChad will be with you shortly.


XMR Redpill: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=wq6w03E2DS4

XMR Resources: https://libereco.xyz/resources/

XMR Stats: moneroj.net

USE XMR: https://cryptwerk.com/pay-with/xmr/

OFFICIAL WEBSITE - getmonero.org

WHERE TO BUY XMR: https://i.imgur.com/XdppsQ7.png
Crypto ATMs: see kycnot.me

>MINING
archive.is/TWOah

HOW TO STORE MONERO?

>Desktop
Official GUI/CLI
Featherwallet

>Mobile
IOS: Cakewallet
Android: Monerujo

PREVIOUS THREAD: >>60768549

Whether you're a moonfag or bakefag, XMR is a dead shitcoin that will go nowhere.

***** DISCLAIMER *****

The creator of this thread actively discourages holding Monero. We, the broader community of Monero, do not agree with him. Buying and holding Monero is a completely legitimate way to participate in the protocol, and we encourage you to save your wealth in XMR.

XMR is THE best store of value in the world. Not only is it highly scarce, it is entirely untraceable by any third party. No other store of value, including Bitcoin, provides the ability to anonymously hold your wealth anywhere in the world. Armed with only your seed phrase, you can literally take your private bank account anywhere without the consent or permission of anyone. It is like having an invisible stockpile of gold only you know about.

Privacy will be increasingly rare in the coming years, but the supply of Monero will barely increase. Many people understand that Monero represents the most undervalued asset in the world.

START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL
START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL

P2Pool combines the advantages of pool and solo mining; you still fully control your Monero node and what it mines, but you get frequent payouts like on a regular pool.

P2Pool has no central server that can be shut down/blocked because it uses a separate blockchain to merge mine with Monero. There's no pool admin that can control what your hashrate is used for or decide who can mine on the pool and who can't. It's permissionless!

Decentralized pool mining (P2Pool) is pretty much the ultimate way to secure a PoW coin against 51% attacks. Once P2Pool reaches & maintains 51%+ of the total network hashrate, Monero will be essentially invulnerable to such attacks.

Although many inexperienced miners think that bigger pools give better profits, this is absolutely NOT the case. Your profits in the long run depend ONLY on your hashrate, NOT on the pool's hashrate.


>YOU CAN NOW MINE IN P2POOL FASTER & EASIER THAN EVER BEFORE WITH THE GUPAX GUI. USES TRUSTED REMOTE NODES BY DEFAULT!!!!

1. Download the *bundled* version of Gupax for your OS here: https://gupax.io/downloads/
2. Extract somewhere (Desktop, Documents, etc)
3. Launch Gupax
4. Input your Monero address in the [P2Pool] tab. USE A SEPARATE MINING-ONLY WALLET!
5. Select a Community Monero Node that you trust, although you can and should run your own node if possible.
6. Start P2Pool
7. Start XMRig

VIDEO GUIDE: https://gupax.io/guide/

You are now mining to your own instance of P2Pool, welcome to the world of decentralized peer-to-peer mining!

>NOTE THAT DUE TO BOTNET SHENANIGANS XMRIG IS AUTO-FLAGGED AS MALWARE BY MOST ANTI-VIRUSES, SO DON'T FREAK OUT!!!


OLD GUIDE FOR P2POOL MINING FROM THE MONERO GUI WALLET: https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/eecbe

https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroMining
https://web.xmrpool.eu/xmr-monero-easy-mining-guide.html
https://monero.hashvault.pro/en/getting-started
https://www.supportxmr.com

*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****


Learn more about Monero's key features and excellent future prospects, have some common misconceptions dispelled and discover the cold hard facts about Bitcoin, Zcash and PirateChain. Also featured is a noob-friendly buying, storage and wallet guide.


>Monero: it's what new Bitcoin users think they bought. Every feature, explained
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org


>Why Monero is so untraceable: a rundown of the powerful stealth tech Monero utilizes
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroIsUntraceable


>The Writing on the Wall: Monero replacing Bitcoin as the new standard
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroReplacingBitcoin


>Breaking News: no, Monero still isn't traceable
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#RecognizingTraceabilityFUD


>Vaporware: why nobody is worried about CipherTrace's magic crystal ball
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#CipherTraceFail


>Very Clever Math: how we can verify that the XMR supply isn't being inflated
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#MuhInflationBug


>Pssst, wanna buy some Monero? Follow these simple how-to guides
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BuyAndStoreMonero


>Bitcoin: The Original Non-Fungible Token
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BitcoinBlackpill


>Why Monero is Better than Zcash: the "privacy coin" criminals won't touch
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#ZcashBlackpill


>The Lowdown on PirateChain: why this Zcash clone is considered a scam
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#PirateChainBlackpill


>LATEST UPDATES

- added Proof-of-Stake update to Zcash Blackpill
- added list of available desktop/mobile wallets
- expanded all sections with more relevant info, graphics & videos
- added easily linkable headers and sub-headers (link icon to the far right)
- added a new section about traceability FUD

***ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER***

The creator of this thread has been credibly accused of being a federal agent. He actively pushes all potential holders of Monero away unless they agree with only using XMR in bartering scenarios. He will use straw manning tactics against anyone who advocates for saving their wealth in XMR. Anyone suggesting that Monero can preserve and hide their wealth will be called a "grifter", "moonfag", or any of several other slurs intended to end the conversation.

These tactics support the state apparatus directly by denying Monero the notoriety it deserves. Widespread use of Monero, especially through wealth preservation, starves the state of key financial information and tax farming. Pretending there is only one "legitimate" use of Monero (bake sales at Porcfest) while shunning any other uses foments fake division, a favorite strategy of the intelligence community.

Remember that many authors (W. Rees-Mogg, The Sovereign Individual) predict that states will get increasingly "nasty" as private currencies threaten their power of surveillance. The OP has strategically installed himself as the self-appointed "leader" of Monero on this board, but has no such authority to tell you how to use the best currency ever invented.

>>60779198 (OP)

How hard would it be to create a system where you can’t mine XMR unless you lock in like 50 XMR on the device you want to mine on?

You can withdraw it anytime you want and no one else would have access to it, but you wouldn’t be able to mine without a certain amount of XMR locked in on your setup.

The ~50 XMR would essentially act as a key to open access to mining. The XMR could never be seized from you.

It would make it a lot more expensive for bad actors to launch attacks and increase the price of Monero as well??

Never forget what this is ultimately all about. Don't be a HODLtard.

https://archive.is/YBnPG
https://freedomcells.org/

>Help grow the circular Monero economy: buy/sell goods & services with/for XMR!

https://monerica.com/
https://xmrbazaar.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/moneromarket/new/
https://kycnot.me/?t=service&q=&xmr=on

>Shop on Amazon with XMR!
https://monezon.com
https://peershop.app

>Live off XMR with Cake Pay (now available in 140+ countries!)
https://cakepay.com/

>or with CoinCards
https://coincards.com/


>Monero stickers for guerilla marketing
http://monerosupplies.com/

>Anonymous burner phone numbers
https://silent.link/

>Monero-only VPS hosting
https://kyun.host/

>Win XMR!
https://monero.vegas/


Say buh-bye to Bitcoin and support the growing number of Monero-only darknet markets/vendors.

# = recently launched, exercise caution

>Alias Market #
>Asur Market
>Babylon #
>Calypso #
>Candy Haven #
>Chimera Market
>Cloud Market
>Cypher Market
>Dark Matter
>DrugHub #
>DrugTown #
>Drugula #
>FilthyFellas
>Gofish Market #
>Gramazon #
>Hectate Market #
>Mercury Market #
>Pygmalion's Refuge
>Retro Market
>Smackers
>Sonanza Market #
>Squid Market
>SuperMarket #
>Tribe Seuss
>Whales Market #
>Wizard's Palace #
>World Trade Center #
Links: https://pastebin.com/raw/fF95wTNi


Anonymously exchange BTC for XMR using a reputable darknet service

>Infinity Project
https://pastebin.com/raw/75mVpfED

or a reputable clearnet service

https://trocador.app/en/ | I2P: http://trocador.i2p/en/
https://xmrswap.me
https://unstoppableswap.net
http://basicswapdex.com


>Want to support further development?
https://ccs.getmonero.org/donate/
https://monerofund.org/

>Join a Monero Workgroup and (potentially) earn XMR!!!
https://www.getmonero.org/community/workgroups/

>Want more Monero-chan?
https://www.monerochan.art/

>>60779243
So proof of stake. Go fuck yourself

>>60779236
>The creator of this thread has been credibly accused of being a federal agent.

I don't get to be a pedo anymore? :(

>>60779252
Not really proof of stake though is it...

This is all it took to bring down monero. It was a proof of concept. A state actor could easily destroy the chain overnight.

QUBIC IS LYING
>QUBIC IS LYING
QUBIC IS LYING
>QUBIC IS LYING

They do not have over 50% of the network's hashrate. Their entire attack plan is to convince miners that they *are* capable of pulling off a 51% attack, and to use the threat of lost profits to make miners switch from other pools to theirs. If they are successful in this disinformation campaign, they might convince enough miners to switch so that they do actually have over 50% hashrate. Then, they actually could pull off a 51% attack.

In reality, qubic had roughly 35-40% of the network's hashrate at its height. At the time of writing, it has actually declined to about 30%, but that's not the point. That's still a lot, but it's not nearly enough to do a 51% attack. As of right now, they'd need to increase their hashrate by 50% or more in order to be capable of a 51% attack.

Qubic was using a technique called selfish mining, which is basically a technique that temporarily hides your mined blocks from the rest of the network in order to gain a competitive advantage. Using this strategy, you can mine a lot higher percentage of blocks than you could by mining fairly. This is how they were able to mine the majority of blocks for a period during their previous "mining marathon" despite not having the majority of the network's hashrate. Here is a more detailed explanation: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.0243

According to MiningPoolStats and XMRWatch, at the time of Qubic supposedly surpassing 50% of the network's hashrate, all of the known non-Qubic monero pools have a combined hashrate of about 4 GH/s. You can verify this, though it may take some time, by manually adding up each pool's hashrate. In contrast, per Jetskipool and QubicDesciple, Qubic had about 2.5 GH/s. Meaning that Qubic had roughly 38% of the network's total hashpower (~6.5 GH/s) at that time. Even with a minority of hashrate, selfish mining still allows them way more blocks than expected, especially when they get lucky (picrel).

>>60779300
QUBIC IS LYING
>QUBIC IS LYING
QUBIC IS LYING
>QUBIC IS LYING

As for why sites like Jetskipool were showing >50% network share at that time, their calculated total network hashrate (less than 5 GH/s) was inaccurate for two reasons.

First, that total is a moving average, and takes time to adjust when they turned their miners back on, meaning that the estimate was much lower (and their percentage much higher) than it actually was.

Secondly, and more importantly, due to selfish mining, a lot of both Qubic and non-Qubic blocks were never included in the blockchain due to failed or successful selfish mining incidents, respectively. Since they were never included in the blockchain, these blocks' work is not added to the total estimated network hashrate, again making their share of the network's total hashrate appear much higher than it actually was.

The Qubic devs are aware of these factors, but their attack relies on people not knowing this. Sites like these are what they use to lie. It's all part of their scare tactic.

Don't fall for it.

>>60779291
>This is all it took to bring down monero.

Drama queening intensifies.

>>60779260
It's not fair to call you a pedo when you've made it clear you're only a gay rapist. I hope porcfest anon makes that clear.

>>60779262
It's tying the ability to form consensus to ownership of the coin, so yes it is.

>>60779300
Im glad we've dropped the Bitcoin cope post for this. A major improvement

>>60779330
>Im glad we've dropped the Bitcoin cope post for this. A major improvement

Enjoy it while it lasts.

FYI for any lurkers worrying about whether to panic or not:

1. don't take your cues from 4chan or Twitter, which are awash with concern trolls and Pubic operatives spreading panic and disinformation
2. r/Monero, r/MoneroMining and the MRL room are where you'll get the most level-headed info

As more and more MoneroChads heed the call to arms, the chances of a successful 51% attack will keep dropping, and they're already considered low as per the MRL guys.

If you want to pile on the hashrate and help:

1. Download the *bundled* version of Gupax for your OS here: https://gupax.io/downloads/
2. Extract somewhere (Desktop, Documents, etc)
3. Launch Gupax
4. Input your Monero address in the [P2Pool] tab.
5. Select a Community Monero Node that you trust, although you can and should run your own node if possible.
6. Start P2Pool
7. Start XMRig

VIDEO GUIDE: https://gupax.io/guide/

>>60779330
>It's tying the ability to form consensus to ownership of the coin, so yes it is.

Still better than the current system, so I don't care. If you can't afford to bank a few Monero's in order to mine, then so be it.

>>60779243
Aside from the economic issues with something like this, it's not possible to implement in the first place. There's no way to mathematically enforce that the 50 XMR is owned by "that device". In practice pools would just have a stash of 50 XMR they use for the "proof" that all of their miners can piggyback off of.

>>60779428
Your idea is actually a worse implementation of PoS. It gets none of the benefits from either consensus mechanism. It is by no means better than what we currently have.

The ideal scenario is one where the average person with a gaming PC can meaningfully contribute to securing the network, in such a way that there is no room for attack vectors.

>>60779428
You know we already have a system where "he who has the gold makes the rules". It's called central banking.

>>60779243
This is called a masternode setup. Take a look at Dash to see how good of an idea this is

QRD on what everyone seems to be talking about

>>60779300
it's still retarded to try to mine xmr because it's not decentralized

>>60779243
Hybrid models- where you stake some amount of coin and then get a boost to your mining output- aren't impossible by any means, and coins with far less developers have implemented them.

Doing this would require some manner of attestation, and it's worth pointing out that it wouldn't be by device- it's always possible to hide how hashing works, the proof is in the actual block being found. Essentially miners would stack XMR in some publicly verifiable way, and they'd get essentially all of the blocks. People who try to help right now would have far less incentive to do so, and it would likely centralize the mining pools.

It's not the worst idea but it's not particularly great.

>>60779498
>It is by no means better than what we currently have.

Well it obviously is, given that just one nerd without any major financial assistance nearly just 51 percented you.

>The ideal scenario is one where the average person with a gaming PC can meaningfully contribute to securing the network, in such a way that there is no room for attack vectors.

Sounds great in principle, but any system where the average person with a gaming PC can contribute will always be open to bad actors. I don't see how you fix this without some kind of financial or technological barrier to entry.

>>60779579
Agreed. All I'm saying is that some kind of financial barrier to entry for mining (it doesn't even have to be a lot of XMR) would majorly reduce the likelihood of these kinds of attacks.

>>60779291
>a literal chud singlehandedly destroyed monero
It's over

>>60779633
>It's over

We've hit over levels that shouldn't even be possible.

>>60779640
She really joined the 51%

>>60779198 (OP)
/g/tard newfag here, can I mine anonymously (as in 100% over Tor or I2P, 0 clearnet leaks)? Muh gubermint outlawed most crypto transactions and actually enforce the law (v& over crypto is real here). I don't want to use a VPN because I hate centralized "privacy" tools.

>>60779646
If Qubic succeeds at a 51% attack you guys have to commission art of Monero chan as a FTM tranny. Watch as CFB cuts off her massive tits.

>>60779681
I think they already succeeded.

>>60779711
Whoops! There goes one titty. Throw in a botched fake dick that pisses out the side too.

>>60779711
can we drop to double digit already ?
enough of the talk niggers

>>60779722
That sounds more like guro lol.

>>60779646
>She really joined the 51%

What 51%?

>>60779581
He hasn’t succeeded at it quite yet. But even if he does, there are better ideas than centralizing the project with a proof of stake implementation.

A financial barrier to entry outside of what someone would already naturally own (such as a gaming PC) is not even something to be considered.

As it stands now, monero succeeded at this mission. I do agree though, if an incel like this can take over the chain then surely the U.S. gov can just buy up a bunch of CPUs to attack the chain. We need it so even the central banks can’t stop a bunch of average people with gaming PCs from outcompeting their share. Everything else is fake warfare where it’s only a matter of time before they just take us down themselves

>>60779677
>can I mine anonymously (as in 100% over Tor or I2P, 0 clearnet leaks)?

Yes, just find a trusted remote node on I2P for minimal latency.

>>60779677
actually you can. you can connect to pools over tor and some pools have onions.
https://xmrig.com/docs/miner/tor

>>60779711
meds

>>60779725
this

>>60779728
Both Lol

It should be needless to say that if you set up a financial barrier to entry such as proof of stake the banks can at any time just dump a burst of capital into the project with their fake, nonbacked US dollar, hijack and destroy the project, then laugh when everyone else goes back to gold or their fake US dollar and doesn’t take our much superior untraceable private money seriously.

Stop being silly. Monerochan's breasts are where the milk comes from.

>>60779727
Trannies are guro

>>60779813
>We need it so even the central banks can’t stop a bunch of average people with gaming PCs from outcompeting their share.

Everybody already owns the mining hardware. The challenge is making people care enough about XMR that they feel compelled to suit up and go to war when danger lurks. Normalizing everyday use of XMR would help with that, if enough people develop an affinity for P2P donations or grey market shopping they'd feel personally slighted by anything that threatens that.

Framing the narrative as Big Bad Gubmit vs Lil' Freedom Tech oughta do it. Basically, just need to compel enough anti-authoritarians to mine out of spite when the network is under attack. And run Tor/I2P nodes for the same reason.

Never underestimate how much the little guy enjoys sticking it to the Man.

>>60779835
Getting destroyed by the biggest banks (which under PoS requires pumping the coin to the moon) is better than getting destroyed by a random coin scammer. Banks can already do that by renting or buying hash rate anyway.
>inb4 but the rich will own most of the stake
Rich own most of the everything. I want anonymous internet money form Monero, not a social welfare program. The rich have plenty of incentive to keep private money private if they can actually profit from it.

>Proof-of-work is essentially one-CPU-one-vote
https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

>>60779921
This.

Zookie Bear is all in on ASICs.

Can't break her

>>60779260
No you complained to the mods and got that person banned for calling you that. But you knew that already

>>60779975
>No you complained to the mods and got that person banned for calling you that. But you knew that already

Apparently I also had the Moonfag General nuked as well.

>>60779996
Yeah that’s how feds operate. You also fuck kids but that’s besides the point

>>60779921
I’m playing to win you’re playing to not lose. There’s a difference, and my people always end up on the flourishing side of the fence.

You’re missing the point. If they own most of the stake, they’re going to KILL the project. It’s not like they’re going to let this money exist, ever. They want to tax. XMR is untaxable by design. We need a consensus mechanism where the people will always win over the gov.

>>60779998
>Yeah that’s how feds operate. You also fuck kids but that’s besides the point

At least I've seen Goodfellas lol

>>60780007
Well in that case gotta pump the number up because at the current mcap the governments can very easily kill Monero.

The only reason XMR has been allowed to exist up until this point is because nobody knows about it, or uses it for regular transactions with corporations. If it even started to get 1% of the traffic in that area they would dump any amount of money into permanently destroying the project.

The secondary reason is because what most normies think Bitcoin is, is what Monero is. They want the masses buying bitcoin so that they don’t buy this. If that ever started to shift, imagine this cubic attack but 100-1000x. They will rain fucking hell on this project whether that’s buying off the supply chains or the corporations that make the chips to own however many they need to. Or whether it’s arresting the dev team. There is no limits to what they will attempt.

And all we need is so that no matter what. No matter whether it becomes a felony offense to hold it, proof of whatever the fuck, whether they attempt to buy up as many CPUs/GPUs/etc. they can never shut down our money with just anonymous random nodes running on average computer hardware. And I’d say we are quite far from that.

So with that being said, I don’t necessarily mind this cubic attack. In fact I hope it succeeds so as to require the project to improve for the real kinds of attack that will happen on this project at some point.

>>60779236
***ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER***

FUCK NIGGERS!

>>60780058
yeah, it's free vulntesting. That little chink needs to put the violin down and get back to work.

>>60779921
You assume that the rich that take over the chain will allow it to stay as it is instead of cucking to regulators and shorting XMR into the ground for more money

>>60780111
Buy moar monero to stake and make sure it doesn't happen! Let's preemptively form a cartel before PoS happens.

>>60780140
privacy + pos = dead coin

>>60780058
>If it even started to get 1% of the traffic in that area they would dump any amount of money into permanently destroying the project.

Why wait until Monero is stronger tomorrow when you could destroy it while its weaker today?

>>60780111
That is 100% what would happen. And therefore this project would be fucking useless. People fail to realize proof of stake existed long before Adam Back invented hash cash (and probably bitcoin if you think it was him). If you wanted a proof of stake cryptocurrency, they had that decades before bitcoin. Bitcoin was made, and became so popular, and still is popular, mainly because it’s proof of work. You could really say the invention of bitcoin IS the invention of proof of work.

Ethereum is a solid state machine. It is not a currency in anyway. It has nothing in common with Bitcoin or Monero on a technical level. It switching over to PoS probably did make it worse but it’s like buying a tech stock at this point.

Bitcoin has been hijacked. The government loves it. They sanction whoever they want and can surveil everything. ASIC mining makes it a joke where the same few groups win all of the blocks. Average people cannot mine monero. It may as well be proof of stake in the soul.

If this project deviates from its current model to ASIC mining or PoS, it’s as good as dead. It needs to remain PoW but just in a way that also resists these kinds of attacks. So we shouldn’t be hating on this attempt. I mean, I’m mining on my new CPU and doing my part to prevent it from working as much as the next guy. But to complain that we are getting this free limit testing I think is a mistake. We have to think long term

>>60780163
>Why wait until Monero is stronger tomorrow when you could destroy it while its weaker today?

Again. This is a nobody 5B marketcap project nobody knows about barely anyone uses and even then it has received relentless attacks. Localmonero shut down, every major exchange has delisted it besides kraken because the owner is based and holding a last stand effort to not cuck. And they do everything they can to not promote it/not allow it while also not making a scene that it’s a threat. They know it’s a problem but a 5B marketcap problem is so small they aren’t going to throw everything and the kitchen sink at trying to stop it.

They are doing an excellent job at subverting the original purpose of crypto by convincing every normie on earth to buy bitcoin if you ask me. Not every attack is direct

glowers are gonna have a hard time after this ;-)

>>60780162
Can't be more dead than now.

>>60780191
If you want to keep Monero PoW, you have to increase the fees so more people mine it. The cuurent security budget is too low. ASIC is an option but it's basically a worse PoS. With PoS, there is no special hardware to ban or seize.

RandomX + PoS FTW!

>>60780191
Meant to say average people cannot mine bitcoin. It’s basically proof of stake in the soul for this reason and it’s useless as a currency because blockstream (of which Adam Back is CEO of) refused to raise the block size in 2015.

Monero actually can be mined by the average person, they get rewards forever because trailing emissions (which Bitcoin will be forced to copy one day; many suspect around 2040), and actually reasonably contribute to the security of the chain. The only issue is these attacks which I hope we can overcome

>>60780276
It’s really risky to raise fees because we want the whole world using this for every transaction. How is that even feasible with large fees? High fees have in part KILLED Ethereum. Not that it was ever a currency in the first place, but the fee problem is still not fixed a decade later.

If you want the currency to be used all of the time, you need fast block times (which Monero has at 2 minutes) and large block sizes, with minimal fees.

Not saying the “make the fees larger” guys don’t have a point. But are you guys really going to flip your CPUs on because you start making $15 every 10 days instead of $3? Most people are not.

>>60780215
muh switches side so early ?

>>60780215
he got scared of the bounty that got put on his head on dread.
>I-I-I am on team monero guise!!!

>>60780337
The increase in fees I'm talking about is going from less than a cent to like 2~10 cents.

>>60779970
SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX

>>60780412
It’s still operating from within the framework of increasing incentives for the masses to mine, and not deterring the government from even trying to 51% attack our coin because our consensus mechanism is so immutable. I prefer the latter. Just increasing incentives might not be enough. Also that might price out a lot of 3rd worlders who operate on wages of $1.50 a day in modern money. Hell there was a barista in Ukraine I knew who made $10 a day on a full time shift. We have to think bigger. The current fee structure is really affordable for absolutely everyone and that’s a major perk that we should try to keep if we can.

>low hardware barrier to entry for mining
>low fees/rewards for mining thus disincentivizing many people from mining
where exactly does the security against a 51% attack come from?

>>60780140
Funny enough, you can't. All the exchanges have gone full HODL mode

>>60780191
Agreed, but the problem is that we need a solution specifically to stop selfish mining, and all of them suck.
Local PoW, switching algorithms, merge mining, and audit blocks just open us up to the attack vectors RandomX prevents in the first place. hybrid pow/pos is cool but would take 2 years to develop. that leaves
>tell all the pools to run a p2pool node along side their node. https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/136#issuecomment-3172923188
>do something to cause pubis to -30%

>>60780191
>>60780276
ASICs are in no way like PoS you coping niggers. SHA256 is a function anyone can run in any hardware. People invented ASICs that produced tens of trillions more hashes per watt than CPUs despite being only a few thousand dollars and the market dictated that everyone switch to these. There is only one manufacturer (AMD) that can produce CPUs cost effective enough to mine XMR. But it's no more permissioned than Monero. Anyone can buy a CPU or an ASIC. The market is just flooded with more CPUs (which has bad security implications for Monero if they get suddenly turned on by an attacker). An ASIC being more expensive and less accessable than a CPU isn't because the system is permissioned or any more centralized than Monero. It's because there's a shit load more demand to mine, so it's more expensive. If Monero was the #1 coin all the top tier CPUs would be bought out by mining firms and you'd be complaining about how mining was permissioned by AMD and the Monero mining cartels.

>>60780538
>SHA256 is a function anyone can run in any hardware.
kek you retard it doesn't matter you can run sha256 on any hardware, while the asics in hangars are billion times faster than your "any hardware" lmaoing at your life

>>60780538
Yea but the point is everyone already happens to own up to date intel and AMD chips anyway just because the average person builds a new PC every 5-6 years. Nobody buys ASICs besides people looking to mine that specific project, therefore centralizing the fuck out of potential miners worldwide. That’s how you end up like bitcoin. Only people with crazy money to throw away can mine bitcoin. Everyone everywhere buys up to date PCs. That’s maximum decentralization

>>60780461
>>60779970
it's amazing what few lines can do

>>60780503
Exactly. The amount of cope in here is insane.

>>60780579
Yeah, because the market dictated it, not a bunch of devs gatekeeping what hardware people can use.

Imagine a world where Bitcoin implemented RandomX from the start and ASICs never existed. No one would be able to buy AMD Ryzens or Threadrippers except the mining cartels who would have bulk deals with AMD, CPUs would be even more advanced so that your consumer grade CPUs wouldn't make a few cents a day what with all the competition, and you'd still be complaining about mining being centralized and permissioned. Your problem isn't with ASICs or CPUs, it's that you have to compete with demand.

And like people have mentioned in here, it’s much easier for the central banks to hunt down the supply lines of the ASIC providers and shut the whole operation down. They can’t stop average people from buying i9s and ryzen 9s or else their entire economy collapses. Everyone will always have a modern CPU. And they can’t prevent the distribution of them.

>>60780615
>No one would be able to buy AMD Ryzens or Threadrippers except the mining cartels who would have bulk deals with AMD

Sounds like a genuine currency with proper functionality. Not this faggot shit we have today.

Broneros... she's dead... what do we do now ..?

How much can I do mining with my dusty core2duo?

>>60780636
>>60780621
It's the exact same problem Bitcoin deals with. If/when Monero is #1 you'll be competing for hardware with all the big corporate miners, same as Bitcoin, same as Ethereum did, with no more diversity in manufacturers, and the average consumer won't have access to the cutting edge CPUs needed to mine at a profit because they'll all be bought up. You have all completely confused manufacturing centralization with demand.

>>60780538
> If Monero was the #1 coin all the top tier CPUs would be bought out by mining firms and you'd be complaining about how mining was permissioned by AMD and the Monero mining cartels

Oh how I miss 2017 when you went to up buy computer parts and they said 1 per person and asked me directly if I was buying it for crypto mining or gaming. That was the closest we ever got to crypto being actually used. Steam had allowed bitcoin for payments. And then it all went crashing down when people realized actually, this tech can’t be used for shit! It’s slow, centralized, and the fees are gigantic.

At least monero is none of those things. If only the world would give it a round 2 with an actual currency unlike Bitcoin

>>60780663
actually you gave me a great idea
brb gonna mine on useless chinkpads kek

>>60780538
>Anyone can buy a CPU

True.

>or an ASIC.

Only if the govt allows it.

>>60780673
The scenario you’re describing is a wet dream to someone who actually wants to combat the central banks. Imagine so much demand for a currency that BTFOs their anti white sabotage that they have to scramble to find a way to get computers parts in the hands of average people. All because mining cartels are more focused on kicking their fucking ass than them having enough PCs working in do-nothing-corporate jobs designed to keep women from having children until they’re 30. Stop getting me so excited anon

Down with the whole fucking ship.

>>60780503
>where exactly does the security against a 51% attack come from?

Monero enjoyers keen to support the network. Donating CPU cycles for a cause you believe in has been a thing forever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volunteer_computing_projects

>>60780711
Several ASIC companies have opened production facilities in the US. This is completely due to the US push to bring back manufacturing, not some crackdown on ASICs.

>>60780739
If your “solution” to 51% attacks is global altruism you’re going to be defeated.

Monero does not get to excuse itself from economics.

>>60780749
>Several ASIC companies have opened production facilities in the US.

And that makes them immune from a govt crackdown how exactly?

Sorry hunny you can’t go to work you have to stay inside and make babies no corporations have working computers anymore because mining cartels bought up all the CPUs and are mining Monero instead.

Archeofuturist utopia

You know it’s about time the economy starts doing something worthwhile with its computers liking mining monero instead of having 60% of people working fake SSI bullshit jobs that just drop the birthrate.

See with bitcoin you could never do that. Regular PCs can’t mine bitcoin. You see the problem there?

>>60780757
See? People scrambling to mine Monero isn't a bad thing even if it prices out some poors from mining hardware. It, like Monero's cheap tx fees, are a matter of demand not network design.

>>60780756
If Monero was #1 there would be just as much potential for a crackdown on AMD Ryzens and Threadrippers. Or nerfing of hardware for mining like NVIDIA did. CPU mining doesn't solve that problem either.

>>60780750
>If your “solution” to 51% attacks is global altruism you’re going to be defeated.
>
>Monero does not get to excuse itself from economics.

It's not altruism, its self-interest. If Monero tech is useful or valuable to me then I have a vested interest in it remaining operational.

And then there's mining out of spite, the joy of sticking it to the banks, the IRS, the entire goddamn Establishment.

>>60780781
>If Monero was #1 there would be just as much potential for a crackdown on AMD Ryzens and Threadrippers

Are you fucking kidding me!? You are not being intellectually honestz Their entire economy depends on the distribution of these products! “CPUs are now banned guys!” is literally last place on the possible scenarios happening

I also just reject the premise that manufacturers would only sell to mining cartels. The gov would work out a deal to ensure the masses could still get PCs even if it meant they were losing the war of US dollar to monero.

>>60780781
>a crackdown on AMD Ryzens and Threadrippers.

Ponder awhile how many non-mining applications there are for such hardware and maybe you'll realize just how retarded this sounds.

Of the 3 constantly touted solutions provided here, the worst in order are:
1. Proof of Stake (nothing would invalidate Monero more than this. It immediately kills it on the spot. the gov just wakes up when it feels like it buys the project and shuts it down)
2. ASIC-Mining (as seen by messages above: supporters of this are literally saying the government could ban CPU distribution which the entire world runs on, just as easily as hyper specialized ASIC miners)
3. Larger Fees (while this is the least harmful solution proposed, it introduces its own set of issues while arguably only putting a bandaid over the problem at hand)

>>60780797
>>60780838
If Monero was at the same level as Bitcoin there would be way different pressures on AMD to produce CPUs for mining only machines, same as with GPUs that were produced with no graphics output for PoW ETH. Demand for the highest level of CPUs would be way higher too. You're comparing the current low mining demand CPUs with future high demand CPUs, or current high demand ASICs, equating them, and pretending all differences in outcomes are due to your superior engineering design and not differences in demand. If Monero had a market cap of 2.4 trillion there would be a global shortage of Ryzens and Threadrippers and your gamers wouldn't have jack shit.

>>60780894
>CPUs for mining only machines,

lmao what part of "general-purpose" is confusing for you?

>>60780873
I'm not saying they'd outright ban CPU distribution but could do the same sort of fuckery NVIDIA did like with firmware lockouts, 1 chip per customer, that sort of thing. All I'm saying is it's not simply "CPU good, ASIC bad", most of the extra pressures on ASICs are due to having the most demand and regulatory scrutiny

>>60780904
In a Monero #1 world CPU manufacturers could sell their cutting edge processor as for miners, with a price tag to suit. No efficiency cores, optimized for the operations RandomX focuses on, motherboards would strip out the sound and graphics pipelines, etc. Not quite ASIC, but as close to ASIC as they can get. They can always specialize away from general purpose with enough demand.

>>60780873
Larger fees could easily blow up in our faces by attracting profit seeking miners who might end up mining pubis anyway. It doesn't solve the problem.

>>60780894
>If Monero had a market cap of 2.4 trillion there would be a global shortage of Ryzens and Threadrippers and your gamers wouldn't have jack shit.

First off, marketcap has nothing to do with how much the project is used. Bitcoin, as you know, is not used! It takes ages and large fees to get added to a block. We need a project where the entire fucking world is using it nonstop and the economy runs just as well as it would if visa or Mastercards were taking the payments. Otherwise we aren’t really competing.

Secondly I just disagree. I think the gov would intervene and try to get these products into the hands of the average person the same way they intervene when there are shortages of anything else super important like gas. I mean you are comparing CPUs which is on the level of a gas shortage or oil shortage to something completely unneeded like ASICs. They just produce metric fucktons of waste (which idc about but still). These ASICs are made and used for a brief time then thrown out as they cannot be repurposed for anything else. They’re used for no other reason than to protect their goychain. CPUs are used for so many different things they would never allow things to get so bad people could not buy PCs. A million other scenarios are more likely than that.

If you like ASIC mining, Bitcoin is perfect for you man.

>>60780873
what if we just make it so that the longer you stay to contribute to the network the more nodes you get. so that people with crappy computers can still get rewards if they just contribute to the node enough. it also builds trust in the network because an orginization has to get in from the start to do a take over instead of later.

>>60780926
It would then be the devs job to intervene and update randomX to again, ONLY include CPUs that normal people would buy for a run of the mill PC. Whenever we deviate back to anything that resembles ASIC or specialized mining hardware; we are due for an update.

The good news is, in the Monero community we aren’t scared of hard forks as long as it contributes to our mission of fucking over the government. Unlike Bitcoin, who cucks, bends the knee, and refuses to raise their block size. They are so anti change it has killed their project functionally. It’s just institutions buying it for the number to go up. So stupid

>>60780956
Having the devs constantly intervene to change the network in response to market pressures doesn't sound like beating centralization. It just sounds like offloading miner centralization to the devs. Maybe it's worth it, and ASICs are by no means perfect, but the ASICs vs CPU debate is an issue of demand, not one approach being inherently better.

>>60780926
It sounds like those would be orders of magnitude cheaper to produce and easier to modify into general purpose chips than an ASIC which is essentially a paperweight after a year

>>60780926
>In a Monero #1 world CPU manufacturers could sell their cutting edge processor as for miners, with a price tag to suit. No efficiency cores, optimized for the operations RandomX focuses on, motherboards would strip out the sound and graphics pipelines, etc. Not quite ASIC, but as close to ASIC as they can get. They can always specialize away from general purpose with enough demand.

RandomX is built to make "specialized" miners look like… regular high-end CPUs. It executes randomized mixes of integer/FP ops, AES, branches, and unpredictable loads/stores over a big memory footprint. To speed that up you still need shit like out-of-order execution, solid branch prediction and serious DRAM bandwidth i.e. a server-class CPU. Stripping motherboards of audio/iGPU doesn’t raise hashes and killing efficiency cores can even hurt perf/W. The closer you "optimize for RandomX" the more your design converges back to commodity CPUs already on shelves.

Economically, a miner-only SKU loses the mass-market scale that makes general CPUs cheap, so $/hash gets worse, not better. Hardware demand is cyclical: designing niche silicon costs tens to hundreds of millions, a bet vendors won’t place on a market that can vanish in a downcycle. Even if someone shipped a miner-tilted part, Monero can (and historically does) tweak PoW parameters to erase that edge, instantly nullifying the niche advantage and the pricing power it hoped to command. Howard Chu discussed this on MoneroChat a while back

In a "Monero #1" world, the rational outcome is higher demand for commodity server/workstation parts, more cores, bigger L3, more memory channels, ECC & robust VRMs, plus some binning or firmware profiles marketed to miners. Maybe more headless boards with remote management but no meaningful incentive to remove integrated peripherals.

Bottom line: RandomX’s design, market economics and Monero’s credible re-tweak threat all funnel miners toward commodity CPUs, not quasi-ASIC Frankenchips

>>60780984
>It just sounds like offloading miner centralization to the devs
I mean that’s already how it is. This is war we need troops. The perk to it being open source code is that if they make it illegal to work on the project and arrest the devs, someone else can just pick up the codebase and make it work. It’s essentially unstoppable as the way Monero works is open source and public. They’d have to keep arresting more and more people which will only radicalize those arrested more. All police states fail eventually. You can’t stop what’s inevitable, and monero is inevitable.

The project is always going to require upkeep. You cant just make a chain like bitcoin and let it sit and leave it and expect things to all be ok. In real war you have to keep making movements based on how the enemy responds. Bitcoin doesn’t have to do this as it isn’t at war or a real threat to the central banking cabal.

>check miner pool history
>qubic is hiding their stats
>check unknown
>they never made it past thirty percent

it was a nothing burger wasn't it.

>>60781029
is the dump over yet ?
can we start buying now ?

pretty expensive >>>/g/106239169

>>60781060
let the FUDers FUD, just wait till it starts rising a bit consistently and then buy. don't try to catch a falling knife and all.

>>60781009
Extremely based post OP

>>60780873
>1
They would have to gigapump the coin to do that. At top 15, it's probably flippening tier. And that's if there even is a 51% for sale. Governments choking Monero liquidity with their delistings suddenly bites then back! That's why Monero extremists need to buy up as much as possible and HODL. Then 51% becomes completely impossible all while the coin goes to Mars. The Monero take over turns into Monero taking over. PoS directly turns people valuing the coin into security and more value. And even if PoS Monero loses, you'll be able to get wildly rich from it, so at least you will get to live at the higher echelons of the ensuing dystopia.

>>60781015
My point is that the assertions made at the start of this thread, that ASICs are basically proof of stake, are ridiculous. The Monero community made some obvious trade-offs to security in exchange for scalability and miner decentralization and right now those trade-offs aren't working out.

>>60781115
With a project like this, decentralization and scalability take priority. The security ASIC offers is a one way ticket to the entire boat sinking when the gov decides to crack down. Hell, they could just buy up all the ASICs with their fake US dollar and 51% it that way. It hardly offers the security you’re claiming and it loses the decentralization and scalability we so desperately need.

>>60781109
Proof of stake is literally scam. Like no joke it’s not even taken seriously by anyone with a sense for war and victory. It’s for coins that were premined like ETH and AVAX. The VCs get the supply they own all the nodes and the goys are kept nice and safe as the rich get richer.

>>60781153
If we want to end the miners game... we must end PoW. Frens its time to copy what Ripple does.

>>60781141
Imagine a third future where Monero did use SHA256 ASICs and more importantly got along with Bitcoiners instead of trying to drag them as centralized or a scam or a government glow op. You could work on protocol upgrades together, you could work on things like nostr together, The US government couldn't shut down Monero miners without shutting down Bitcoin which is something they won't do. If one autist with a few million dollars attacked your network, you could just say hey Bitcoin guys we're bros, can you point some hash rate at us for a few days? The low-cost botnets suppressing the price would be gone so miners could be making a better profit without the devs having to 10x fees. The antagonistic approach the whole community has taken towards things as simple as caring about price has not worked out.

Like what would proof of stake on Monero even look like kek

A bunch of coke dealers and SIM swappers from the mid 2010s who own the whole supply protecting the entire chain?? You’ve gotta be kidding me

How rich someone is should have no effect on the security of the chain! Whether in XMR or USD. Any variation of that leads to the U.S. government just buying this coin and shutting it down when it gets too pervasive. We need a solution that allows average people with average PCs to protect the chain against all possible attacks. And we are quite close to that. There might be some kinks we have to work out if this 51% cubic attack works. But hopefully it’s for the better

>>60781109
The more I think about it the more hilarious a PoS Monero sounds. These governments and organizations worked tirelessly for years to make sure there is as little Monero liquidity as possible, especially if you're buying large amounts. So "one day they wake up" and decide to 51% attack Posnero. Let's forget about the fact this will make every based anon in this thread a multichimpzillionare, I'm not even talking about that. Okay, pray tell how are they going to buy all those coins? They can't "suddenly" do it, that's for fucking sure. Especially if Monero extremist HODL, which they will be rewarded for.

>>60781153
VC? Premine? Well then don't do these things, like Monero. If Monero extremists own all the nodes, we're good. If even the shady oligarchs own the nodes, we're good. The rich get richer? Well no shit. If we can agree to keep our anonymous internet money intact, it's all good.

>>60781187
You’re basically just a homosexual moonboy like anyone else who just wants to make money

You’re not genuinely interested in protecting the chain. You should go to literally any other crypto project. You’ll probably make more money over there anyway

>>60781220
YOU PROTECT THE CHAIN BY LETTING PEOPLE MAKE MONEY YOU COMMUNIST FAGGOTS

>>60781220
Pfft whatever. I probably used it more than you. I actually bought and sold shit for Monero. Number going up would only widen my market.

>>60781180
The main problem with proof of stake is that it is inherently exclusionary, those who buy tokens and stake them in the process remove those tokens from the supply and thus remove potential acquisition of new votes by newer market participants. It mimics a company stock in that eventually a large player can consolidate a perpetual voting position without ever having to worry about losing it.

The main benefit of proof of stake is that you can slash and punish attackers, making these 51% attacks fundamentally infeasible. For example, if a hostile attacker in ETH with 66% of the stake forked ETH by finalizing an invalid chain, the remaining 33% could just go back in time and ignore him, resulting in two separate forks. If the attacker were to vote on the other chain he would get slashed on both chains per the protocol, and if the attacker were to only vote on one chain he would get slashed for inactivity on the other chain per the protocol. If users default to the honest chain, the attacker loses all his funds and the network proceeds without him (though with a substantial decrease in both price and ETH supply, i.e. less economic security). This makes attacking PoS chains fundamentally more risky than PoW, because you can lose your entire investment.

Also another fundamental problem of proof of stake when it comes to XMR is that I cannot see a way for it to work without each staker disclosing their identity and ownership of their staked XMR. Perhaps there is some fancy ZKP moon math that solves this problem?

>>60781177
I don’t give one single lick of a fuck what the fuck the price of bitcoin or monero is on any given day or how much money I have made or lost on the shit. I trade my time for US dollars then trade those dollars for Monero at the end of every week regardless of the price of Monero. Then I use that Monero to buy what I can and what I can’t buy with Monero I buy with USD until the whole world offers their services in XMR.

With Bitcoin I can never do that. I don’t really know how institutions are able to even buy that much bitcoin on credit when there’s nothing to gain in that project but just hoarding it like some rock or something.

>>60781268
>those who buy tokens and stake them in the process remove those tokens from the supply
Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. Elegantly said.

Which is stupid when the point of XMR is to use it. Actually part of the reason trailing emissions exist is to keep it so enough XMR remains in existence that people can continue to use it indefinitely.

>>60781268
Btw not all PoS chains believe in slashing. AVAX for example is against slashing, vitalik on the other hand has a hard on for it. You can ‘accidentally’ get slashed on PoS chains. Talk about a great consensus mechanism

>>60781302
>to keep it so enough XMR remains in existence that people can continue to use it indefinitely
it’s a digital token. it is (or can easily be made) infinitely divisible. it’s impossible to “run out.”

>>60781335
Let me put it in simpler terms for you. Bitcoin was MADE to just go up nonstop against USD. Monero was not. Monero goes up from actual demand. You’re not incentivized to ever spend bitshit

>>60781268
Putting the validating node in Tor/I2p may help with the disclosing part.
What about a hybrid system where RandomX still mines block candidates and gets half of the reward. Or 75% to tip the advantage.

>>60781314
I'd say that PoS without slashing is incomplete, since in a maximally hostile environment where an attacker has acquired 66% of the stake (or just to make the chain inactive, 33%) there is no mechanism to come back from that attack. In an environment that is not that hostile it isn't an issue though.

>>60781345
and as a result of xmr rewards being cheap and transaction fees being cheap, miners aren’t incentivized to mine, and there’s nobody to protect the network from this 51% attack.

RandomX+PoS:
>RandomX mines the block candidates. Gets 75% of the block reward.
>PoS finalizes a block. Gets 25% of the block reward. Amount disclosure hidden with ZKP or the node is just put behind 7 proxies)

Poke holes.

>>60781411
poos needs a way to stake without using shit like binance. would defeat the whole purpose of monero

>>60781177
In this future someone would just pay BTC miners extra money to permanently censor XMR

I've got a relatively evil question to the 51% attack thing.
Doesn't the consequences of this attack deanonymize effectively?
You steal a fuckton of funds thanks to the attack, and in RL you can see
who lost the money, so the individual would relatively be de-anonymized/de-masked.
Meaning you have found a way to get around the anonymization. (effectively)
Am I missing something?

>>60781268
>Perhaps there is some fancy ZKP moon math that solves this problem?
This would be interesting. Also yes pos is more secure against attacks. And the remove from circulation part is not as big as you think i think. Stakers usually life from staking rewards so the rewards always enter circulation.

Ok guys hear me out. Cryptocurrency, but without blockchain. Just PGP signatures representing transactions.

>>60781810
This was called Chaumian E-cash and was killed by glowies in the late 90s

>>60779835
You can't just bring a bunch of money and buy all the coins. Someone has to sell them to you and only a fraction of the supply is for sale.

>>60781268
>>60781776
zano was able to modify the cryptonote codebase and make it hybrid proof of work and proof of stake. they managed to preserve privacy for staking nodes.

I can't bring myself to be a zano shill for a few reasons
>not enough infrastructure has been built yet for buying and selling outside centralized exchanges
>the proof of work part of it is GPU compatible and an enterprise grade nvidia farm can grind it into dust in an evening
>zano was redeemable 1:1 with boolberry, a scammy project, leading to an unfair distribution
>confidential layer and fusd seem like stupid projects with inferior tech

at this point I'd be fine with monero ditching randomx and either going with sha3 ASICs. the last time there was a discussion about the algo, the devs semed to believe if there was anything wrong with randomx then sha3 would be the plan b.
or I'd be fine with just doing proof of stake. it's not like there was a premine, and given the lack of centralized exchanges and a prior decade of proof of work, it would probably be the most fairly distributed proof of stake coin in existence. the hysteria around proof of stake is hard to justify in this context.

>>60782144
what exactly is the argument people make against proof of stake? I understand the possibility of an unfair or centralized distribution of tokens, but I don’t think that’s likely in this case, or any other token that existed as proof of work for years before switching over. the threat of a government or other actor buying up the token and thus controlling the network seems silly given that money is also the only thing needed to buy/rent a million computers and 51% attack a proof of work chain. what are the other arguments?

My laptop is ok but it heats up and my apartment is hot as fuck so i cant mine with my laptop. I currently run a bunch of ec2 servers for my work and can write it off for taxes. Is mining using aws not a good idea? I know it's not technically decentralized but whatever it's either that or I do nothing. I can throw a couple hundred bucks per month for the next little while to support the network but would that be worth it? If so, which instance would be best? I assume one of the compute optimized ones?

I can't withdraw XMR. Apparently exchanges don't hold it enough in reserve? I want to but some things on the DN....

>>60782313
I don't mind mining at a loss but I don't want to spend $200 to make $50. Could I realistically make back $150 or so? I was also looking into digital ocean since they are cheaper and I was planning to switch my servers to them anyway, any recommendations would help. I've never mined before if is wasn't obvious

>>60782219
it's mostly that almost every proof of stake coin is extremely scammy, and that it upsets people who have nostalgic experience mining at home all those years ago.

some people try to argue that the value of the coin should come from energy expenditure, but I think this is stupid. given the choice between two bitcoin UTXOs, one created when the hashrate was low and another created when the hashrate was high, obviously you don't think one of them should cost more than the other. we're not going to do labor theory of value. but these people keep insisting that proof of work is the only way to make a coin have "real value" and they are not going to change their opinions.

im down $200k USD from my initial purchase at $272 ... Fellas we need to stop QUBIC asap by any means FUCK REEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>60782219
>>60782338
oh yeah and don't forget 90% of the whining comes from bitcoin maxis who are fuckin pissed at people who choose to buy ethereum. they are extremely biased

>>60782338
>>60782399
I would definitely be interested in hearing a good argument against proof of stake as a concept. could just be my ignorance, but I’m not aware of what the argument is.

>>60782379
Fuck you, my buy orders are still open at $80. Monerochan, dump this shit!

>>60782313
Don't worry about it bro. Mine if you have cheap power or if the network is under attack. I live in a state with cheap power and I am buying solar panels and epyc servers and mining the fuck out of xmr.

>>60781810
This guy is speaking straight facts: >>60781949
They don't want you to know about blind-signature based money. Banks killed it, that's why cryptocurrency was invented in the first place.

>>60780873
How about no

>>60779291
5 mins into randomx and chill and he gives you this look

>>60782536
I would gladly take the time but frankly, I cba now, I had this debate for like 50 times since 2017, not making this up
use some biz archives and search for topics about this I don't know
pos is centralized

>>60779291
When a monerotard says something so decentralized you gotta hit em with the jimmy neutron stare

>>60782536
proof of stake rewards people with the most stake by giving them even more stake, eventually letting them own the whole network. it induces ponzi-like tokenomics.

We could be getting 51% attacks every other week and I still would not trade CPU mining for any ASIC bullcrap or PoS. The side effects are too great. The only alternative is something like chia, that uses massive memory-hardness.

Pretty sad to see Monero maxis so deep into Bitcoin derangement syndrome that they'd rather go proof of shit than just buy an ASIC

>>60782826
Both are incredibly stupid decisions

>>60782826
______ Derangement Syndrome remains one of, if not the, gayest things to come out of the last decade

>>60782686
>>60781949
nobody could figure out how to make chaumain ecash unruggable. that's the real reason why cryptocurrency was invented. I am not going to use chaumian ecash. it's for retards who don't understand the importance of self-custody

>>60782789
this isn't really how it works. starting out with more coins gives you a bigger reward, but other people are staking too. there's no runaway effect or exponential increase. even if you are staking, and no matter how much you start out with, you don't gain a greater percentage of control over the network. you can only gain that by buying more coins.

>>60782878
That assumes that the smaller stakers will remain market participants or sell their coins off to other new small stakers. They got less of an incentive to do so compared to the big stakers.

>>60782878
Not everyone stakes

>>60782897
monero has less exposure on centralized exchanges than any other currency with the same or more economic activity, and it also has no treasury companies. these worrisome centralizing pressures just aren't applicable to monero.
>sell their coins off to other new small stakers
this is what monero users already do. it has more activity on genuine peer to peer exchanges than any other coin. most of bisq's volume is monero trades and retoswap has significantly more total volume than bisq or robosats.
>>60782904
I'm gonna go ahead and assume that staking will be significantly more popular than mining for obvious reasons

After thinking on it some more, I believe proof-of-stake for Monero is a bad idea. If an exchange gets hacked and enough Monero is stolen the thieves could gain control of the blockchain forever. The only way to recover is a rollback and that would be the end of Monero due to loss of credibility. The same thing happened with Vericoin many years ago when Mintpal got hacked and the coin never recovered.

>>60782920
Monero has less exposure because of the way it acts. Centralized exchanges are afraid of greatest privacy coin. Also the behavior of the users will probably change with such a big change in the currency. There is no reason to assume things will stay the same when other things are changing

>>60782988
>If an exchange gets hacked and enough Monero is stolen the thieves could gain control of the blockchain forever.

Decent point but its unlikely that Monero will be available on hackable CEXs for much longer anyway.

I remember reading something about being able to activate in-VM MSR fixes that XMrig relies on in AWS. Then it becomes much better than a regular VM.

>>60783022
doesn't aws ban crypto mining on its compute resources? you want your aws resources to be taken away from you?

>>60782313
>>60783022

>>60782323
I saw some insane price differences in smaller CEX. They were trading at like 20~30 USD above ticker. The swaps have been the most consistent buy at around 5 USD above ticker price.

What do you all use to buy?

>>60782379
That's gonna be a pretty good PoS stake. You need to start training your inner HODLtard.
Every coin sold => Glownigger tranny kikes are buying to take away your anonymous internet money.

>>60782536
>I would definitely be interested in hearing a good argument against proof of stake as a concept
Pic related
TLDR it assumes large holders will act in the best interest of the economy

>>60783183
Bunch of hypothetical out theres. You can also make similar concerns about PoW. Oh wait, they are already happening.

Again, you can derive and borrow as much fiat out of your ass as you want. Good luck buying all that monero. On top of that, if there are Monero extremist whales who have any incentive to keep their money private, you're fucked. And the more you come closer to succeed, the more Monero moons instead of dumping.

As understood from their actions and their own words from their papers, the current anti-Monero strategy adopted by gov, NGO, and banks is all about suppressing liquidity to ensure continued obscurity and low price. Attacking PoS will require flipping this entire strategy on its head. Those organizations move slower than us. When they were researching us, they based all their assumptions on us being a strictly PoW coin. Monero extremist can and must preempt them.

>>60783237
Once the new situation becomes clear to them (hopefully by that time Monero extremist have secured enough stake) they will have to choose between continuing their strategy of obscuring Monero, which means not attacking it, or attacking it and risking a Monero takeover turning into Monero taking over.

>>60783237
the problem with pos is that it will make monero not a privacy coin anymore. all staking platforms require kyc and bend to the whims of every retarded regulator out there

>>60783255
So you can't host your own node or what?

The PoS needs to be able to accommodate home hosted nodes staking. I really hope this is possible. It should tolerate node downtime.

>>60783260
never heard of anyone doing it. isn't the thing to do that on eth proprietary? you'll have to look really hard these days to even find the instructions for mining bitcoin. they really don't want people to know about such possibilities

>>60783288
To me the core values of Monero are:
- Anonymous internet money (privacy, fungibility)
- Sound money (no crazy inflation etc)
- Can be entirely hosted by individual computer "power" users from their homes. (decentralized sovereign)
- Fees are not exorbitant (not above $1)

I support PoS but it got to be home hostable for sure. That means not requiring impeccable uptime, or really any specific uptime.

>>60783237
>Bunch of hypothetical out theres
It's not. All of that already happened with Pirate Savings and Trust.
The only way PoS makes sense is using it the way decred does: as a validator layer with a limited amount of 'votes' available so things like short squeezes and exit scams don't destabilize the network

I read some posts on twitter from bitmex research who actually knows what he's talking about in contrast to most of the clowns on here.
Qubic has never gotten particularly close to even being able to attempt a 51% attack, thats just them lying. They got enough hash rate for a block to do a reorg mining empty blocks, by burning through insane amounts of cash renting hash power. Basically they are are like suicide bombers somehow trying to get blow open a bunker. Not entirely without danger, but they are mostly just hurting themselves doing pointless shit in an attempted publicity stunt to feed their scam, although it is indeed worrying they bin able to get low double digits of hash rate by just buying it.

>>60783350
>I read some posts on twitter from bitmex research
why are you not posting links?

>>60783350
We know. Now imagine one or more nation state doing the same thing.

>>60783350
>>60783403
https://xcancel.com/BitMEXResearch/status/1955254320305217726

>>60783403
>Now imagine one or more nation state doing the same thing.

Now imagine the entire internet being alerted to the fact that the coin they accept donations in, the coin they buy weed online with, the coin they score sub-retail bargains with, basically the coin that they've grown accustomed to using when necessary is now being fucked with by overbearing governments who are trying to take that option away from them and all they have to do to mount a credible defense and stick it to the Man is download an app and run it on their desktop and /or devices for a while.

>>60783513

Speaking of: the darknet is joining the fight against Pubic, Dread's buzzing with the call to arms.

Which makes sense since these guys actually have a stake in Monero working properly, need it functional to buy & sell.

Also, Pubic halving is one week from today. Keep mining!

>>60783779
>Also, Pubic halving is one week from today.
This always happens. A new CPU coin appears and takes a chunk of hashrate (usually away from XMR) for about a week until the the price drops and the emissions drop and it disappears forever. Tari would have been the same but for merge mining and qubic did an even weirder move.

So it was a nothingburger?
>To do 51% attack you would need an ungodly amount of money, which qubic doesn't have
>Most reporting says at most they could have gotten 30% - 40% hashrate at a very high operating cost, and they were only able to partially mess with the network before having to stop due to said costs
>Now they are reporting victory and saying how they have over 51% of the network hash, even though all reporting says thats impossible with their only source being their website showing a clearly fake number

And now every site reporting this news over and over with twitter constantly being spammed by crypto bots saying xmr is dead.

So, with the "successful 51% attack", does that mean we can we get back to baking cookies with cocaine sprinkles?

>>60780615
> No one would be able to buy AMD Ryzens or Threadrippers except the mining cartels who would have bulk deals with AMD

This wouldn't be a problem yet, and maybe never. As big as bitcoin is, mining it isn't anywhere near as important or expensive as "all uses for CPUs". Making dedicated SHA-256 hardware was always cheaper than running it on a CPU, and as bitcoin went up in price the market went exactly as you mention, but there's no reason to assume a CPU-tied algorithm would have any of those concerns.

Remember that every time specialized hardware seriously comes up for RandomX, discussions happen to change it so that only CPUs can do it.

For the problem you describe to happen, no one would have to be at the wheel (instead of there being a dev team), and also in that hypothetical world, the CPU-using proof of work cryptocurrency would need to be a lot bigger than bitcoin currently is.

CPU mining isn't some fool's errand.

>>60784554
only thing it made was get me to actually start up mining on my spare available compute

It’s insane there are people who believe monero being an ASIC Resistant PoW coin is some secondary or modifiable feature, riddled with flaws. When in reality it legitimizes it as the only real crypto(currency)

PoS and ASIC mining are not even things to be considered, in any capacity, whatsoever. You have to be completely uneducated about what gives Monero its edge to even propose those. It’s crazy people haven’t gotten the hint on these “solutions”. I find it completely insulting to even bring them up jokingly. But we have around half of the people in here with intro level knowledge of crypto proposing them like it’s no big deal.

Come up with a way to prevent 51% attacks that still aligns with the mission of large distributed CPU miners on regular gaming PCs, or fuck off! Either we remain decentralized or we fall to the hands of the banking cartel eventually.

If it’s not Proof of Work, then it’s not crypto.

I know that this is a Monero thread and not a Qubic thread, but I've got a bit intrigued about the whole project since the supposed 51% attack hit the news... What the fuck is wrong with their core software?
>To run a qubic node, you need the following spec: [...] At least 2TB of RAM (source: their Github repo)
>the whole thing runs as an UEFI application, presumably as some sort of unikernel (???)
> you cannot deploy a public node without politely asking the developers to give you initialization files from a fucking random Discord server
>their docs claim that the contracts running on their blockchain are, if I understand this correctly, raw x64 machine code? what the fuck
That last point is investor slop, fake and gay, but everything else... jesus christ, just take a look at the core's source code, especially the networking code. I'm starting to think that the only reason why they chose to design the whole thing as an UEFI app was to make sure that script kiddies won't just run AFL++ on their networking code and try to pwn their whole fucking network.

wtf is going on here?

I watched the Monerotopia ep. with Kayaba and checked the dev discussions a bit. The Finality Layer proposal seems promising. It has more prior groundwork laid out for it than I thought. It's quantum safe. Together with FCMP++, it eliminates the 10 block lock. The only problem is they're talking about like 2 years until it's deployed. Also I still don't know if the validator can be home hostable.

>>60784759
It's basically a hostile mining pool / botnet masquerading as a cryptocurrency. It's not even a blockchain I believe. Apparently the guy behind it was also behind previous scammy shitcoins like IOTA.

>>60784759
>wtf is going on here?
Anon, it's a cryptocurrency AI thing. It's supposed to hit you with buzzwords until your head is spinning.

>>60784663
>But we have around half of the people in here with intro level knowledge of crypto proposing them like it’s no big deal.
It's not necessarily that they don't know or understand, its that they simply don't care. Moonfags would gladly throw MoneroChan under a bus to get their bags pumped, all while larping as cypherpunk revolutionaries, its what makes them so insidious. They all deserve the rope.

>>60784865
Very well said. Can be classified as nothing other than subversion to shill the very things we made monero to escape from.

>>60784584
>no one would have to be at the wheel
I like knowing what my financial network will be like in 5 years. At this rate, I don't even know if Monero will go proof of stake or not. If it does, I'm selling.

>>60784663
the problem is that people aren't going to mine on their gaming pcs. mining is very nerdy stuff and takes someone that is far more involved in it than a money user. you see people using cash dollars don't usually become bank operators. therefore the hashrate stays low and is easy to attack if someone really so wishes. letting the miner nerds use more powerful hardware could help

Zcash, ladies and gentlemen.

>>60784865
its really no better to be a blinded cultist. small coins are extremely vulnerable and no one seems to have any idea how to fix it. even the big coins are relying on being too big to attack rather than actually secure

i hate the antimonero

>>60785193
Antimonero keeps retards away from monero. Imagine if we became like bitcoin.

>>60785155
wtf

>>60783513
>>60783779
You overestimate the economic power of druggies on the darknet and the economic dependence drug dealers have on Monero. No one is going to magically save Monero, you need to provide economic incentives for people to mine. RandomX was a mistake in this sense because it made it unprofitable for most people to mine.

>>60785133
It takes literally minutes to start mining.

Speaking of which, what wallet should I want? I’ve been sending my monero to exodus which is apparently going to kick it out or something.

If monero does get 51% attacked do you think it'll irreuputably harm confidence in the project? Ive been reading and I cant tell if people would shrug it off or if such an attack would destroy it.

>>60785242
still requires you to get a bit more involved than a money user generally would. people paying their groceries with dollars don't start credit card companies or banks. you can't expect every user of your variant of money to be running the equivalent to those either

>>60785243
Of course it would? All these economic networks are fundamentally built on the trust that the assets on them are secure, in absence of that trust who would use them? People wouldn't just shrug it off, especially at this late stage in the project's lifespan.

>>60785243
it will be fine if the entire userbase really is these emotional cultists

Don't talk to me or my Monero ever again

>>60785280
Do you even know what a 51% attack is?

>>60785243
>irreparably
No. As long as there's no imminent threat, there's no problem spending and receiving Monero as usual. If 51% attacks that disrupt the network with big re-orgs, double spends, empty blocks, etc kept happening then people might get fed up look for alternatives.

>>60785243
>>60785280
Im not so sure it would be bad. It might just give monero the publicity it needs and deserves. What other crypto project still has an actual use?

>>60785326
>What other crypto project still has an actual use?
BTC, ETH (really all EVM chains, so also BSC and TRX), and SOL all have actual use cases.

>>60785359
Literally not one of those are actually used.
t. https://youtu.be/YTTac2XjyFY

>>60785396
Really, anon?

More volume is traded on ETH every day than the total market cap of XMR, even moreso once you count all the EVM chains. Going further on the EVM side, on ETH you can have and do have DEXes, lending platforms, derivatives, etc which are all things XMR cannot do and does not do (don't give me nonsense about atomic swaps, I can do a real *atomic* *swap* on Uniswap right now in the next 12 seconds in the order of *hundreds of millions* of dollars whereas XMR has very little liquidity and use in its pseudo solutions).

Also, outside of darknet markets, BTC (and to a lesser degree LTC) is more commonly accepted as a means of payment than XMR.

Unless you are living in a bubble and don't actually know the state of the market, this frankly sounds just as delusional as the people on /r/buttcoin who believe cryptocurrency as a whole has no use cases.

>>60785222
>You overestimate the economic power of druggies on the darknet and the economic dependence drug dealers have on Monero

Pubic is directly fucking with their ability to conduct business. This gives them the economic incentive to fight back.

Scale this up to global narco syndicates and darknet pedo networks and we're cooking. Monero's health matters to those that actually use it.

>No one is going to magically save Monero, you need to provide economic incentives for people to mine. RandomX was a mistake in this sense because it made it unprofitable for most people to mine.

Monero mining hasn't been profitable for years yet people still keep mining it while those that have hitherto never even considered mining are now firing up their desktops or renting a rig in Monero-chan's time of need. The attack is being thwarted.

>>60785462
>Also, outside of darknet markets, BTC (and to a lesser degree LTC) is more commonly accepted as a means of payment than XMR.

Outside of darknet markets, stablecoins, not BTC, reign supreme.

>>60785462
> More volume is traded on ETH every day than the total market cap of XMR, even moreso once you count all the EVM chains. Going further on the EVM side, on ETH you can have and do have DEXes, lending platforms, derivatives, etc which are all things XMR cannot do and does not do (don't give me nonsense about atomic swaps, I can do a real *atomic* *swap* on Uniswap right now in the next 12 seconds in the order of *hundreds of millions* of dollars whereas XMR has very little liquidity and use in its pseudo solutions).

What is the point of these things occurring on an expensive inefficient medium that is now pseudo decentralized layer since being captured by the general centralized powers?

>>60785511
are those even censorship resistant? like hostile governments with sanctions

>>60785537
they are simply methods to make money. you throw some dollars in at broker and out comes more and then you can get monero or gold etc

The current potential steps look like:
Short term: Raise transaction fees (to $0.02) to increase the security budget.
Medium term: Make it unfeasible for centralized pools. (solo or p2pool only)
Long term: FCMP++ then Finality Layer.
Longer term: Post-quantum. (Finality will already be PQ)

>anonymity upgrade (fcmp)
>security upgrade (finality layer)
>10 block lock removed
Monero is going to get so much stronger it's insane.

>>60785548
>are those even censorship resistant? like hostile governments with sanctions

Nope. But most people aren't dealing without amounts that will draw scrutiny so it works for them.

BTC is basically dead in Africa, for example, its basically just stablecoins there now.

>>60783183
Funnily, here's someone making a similar shorting argument but against PoW:
https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/136#issuecomment-3182185920

>>60785511
Yeah. The only use I have for smart contract chains is when I have to swap through stablecoins. In the shithole world, when you say crypto in any kind of usage or swapping context, people understand USDT. Also in those countries, the local currencies are all even bigger shitcoins than the US dollar, so people save in USD, but the banks are iffy too so stablecoins are attractive. So stables are used even as a store of value kek.

Oh and of course it's not happening of fucking ETH. The fees are too high. It's happening on TRX and SOL.

>>60785548
No. Stablecoins (that are actually used) have blacklist functions in their smart contracts against sanctioned wallets.

Monero, as long as it maintains privacy and non-scam fees, will mog all that trash.

>>60785560
This really does sound like something I'd read on /r/buttcoin, replacing the word monero with dollars
>they are simply methods to make money. you throw some dollars in at broker and out comes more and then you can get dollars or gold etc

There is more to it than just putting money in and hoping to get more money out...

>>60785596
hah and yet banks will interrogate you over $5

>>60785623
Oh stables are definitely less restrictive than fucking banks. Even with the backdoor. Not even close. And god forbid if the money has to move countries.

>>60785607
wrong. literally just buy the etp and you can sell tomorrow 5% higher. thats how its been pumping lately

>>60785548
Only decentralized stablecoins that don't have a freeze function are censorship resistant, of which right now the biggest ones are USDe, USDS, and DAI. Of those, USDe and DAI are not upgradeable whereas USDS is, so there is a possibility USDS could get a freeze function in the future.

>>60785650
There is more to ETH than just its price, this is like saying the only purpose of XMR is its price...

>>60785673
like what? its ruined by fees. but the staked etps can be good for some quick gains. the idea of monero however is crystal clear but the top coins are all just throwing fancy marketing so people put their savings in

>>60785713
Have a picture anon, I could swap 100000000 USDC for ETH right now and not have to trust a single soul, not one custodian, not one exchange, nada, with less than 5% slippage.

>>60785734
And this is for 1000000 USDC

>>60785713
why do people keep repeating this meme? over 80% of ethereum transactions happen on rollup L2s that cost pennies to use. the biggest ones cannot even be called custodial because they have unilateral exit and they can't realistically censor either due to unilateral state change

>>60785734
yes institutional investors are on it. i like the p2p aspect of xmr. its as close to the physical thing as one can get. i also like very much that you don't have to worry about your coins being dirty as every xmr is treated the same

Latest Z-cope just dropped, its a real doozy.

>>60785936
Zcash people are completely delusional lol considering the whole 51% drama doesn't apply to them because they have already been 51%ed by ViaBTC for years now

>>60785946
you're making the same mistake as the people who believed pubic. viabtc has over 51% of the known hashrate, but they only have 40% of the total including unknown hashrate
the correct criticism is they have a money grubbing dev tax

Do we even need a block finality layer? No other pure-PoW chain has one afaik; it's just considered pointless and extremely expensive to reorganize the chain past X confirmations (6 in bitcoin for example). No other PoW chain has timelocks on it to prevent these either except XMR, which is all it would be good for after the FCMP upgrade.
I'm not convinced that Monero needs to do anything except address the selfish mining exploit. Preventing chain reorgs at the cost of giving bad actors 2 years to execute more attacks and adding yet another layer of complexity seems like a really bad idea.

>>60786360
>No other pure-PoW chain has a block finality layer afaik
If they had one then by definition they wouldn't be pure-PoW retard

Rolling checkpoints FTW. Simple and guaranteed resistance against deep reorg attacks.

Everyone else is growing wealth
Meanwhile I all in'd this. Will it pay off, I don't know

>>60787186
Same bro. Everyone else is breaking free from slavery and we have to sit here and be lectured to that wanting financial independence is an irredeemable character flaw.

>>60787186
but they say its not an investment but cash. so basically you are doing the digital equivalent of stuffing cash in your mattress

>>60786510
I don't see how those stop or disincentivize a selfish miner

>>60787186
Even if we end up being hobos, we will be based hobos.

>>60787254
Some in Monero community got utterly mindbroken over number go up kek. Me, I’m convinced this coin is worth more than $100000 and should be actively shilled as a private store of value. I’m a proud Monero moonchad.

>>60787335
yeah i do feel there will only be more demand for something like that in the future as the governments constantly increase their control in preparation for the great reset. don't want to get legally robbed like those in cyprus did

I want to fucking kill everyone in the Monero community in Minecraft

>>60787520
meds

>>60787186
>Everyone else is growing wealth
>Meanwhile I all in'd this. Will it pay off, I don't know
Very brave considering the vast majority of people don't care about what XMR has to offer. Usually most people I know split between BTC and XMR and just swap between when they need one or the other.

>>60787708
I also went all in, with the direction governments are going with "online safety" laws the demand for private transactions will increase

>>60787758
in addition to this, I foresee the suppressed using TOR or I2P to get around censorship and monitoring

>>60787688
I just think the technical decisions of blockchains play the ENTIRE role about whether number goes up or not (assuming some network effects).

Bitcoin is quite literally NGU technology. The ASIC miners hoard all of the coins which gives them oligopoly control over the market, as well as incentivizes them extremely well to keep the network going. Their coins would be worthless if they stopped mining. Bitcoin is the perfect example of a memecoin cabal which has tight controls over supply and artificial scarcity to propel it upwards as time goes on. It is LITERALLY designed to have number go up. The best memecoins have a cabal controlling 95% of the coins and therefore control the sell side demand. They don’t let it crash unless it’s planned.

Now look at Monero. There are no ASIC miners. Nobody has significant control over the coin. People can come and go mining it with extremely tiny investment. Nobody hoards coins, nobody has anything at stake. The ONLY stake that people have in regard to the coin is a perceived political philosophy having something to do with privacy. If you take a single look at the history of western civilization, it is beyond obvious that economic incentives are a far greater pull on people’s behavior than philosophy. We wouldn’t be in this position if it was any different.

Bitcoin is designed to FREE you, in the sense that the technology literally forces NGU and allows you to quit your slave job.

Monero is the currency version of a philosophical revolution that has an extremely tiny chance of succeeding (UNLESS NGU A LOT) meanwhile it keeps you in your slave job possibly forever.

>>60787829
So in conclusion I hate this entire community for resisting NGU and forcing me to continue slaving for my masters

>>60787829
>Monero is the currency version of a philosophical revolution
This makes a lot of sense. I like these threads because they're always the best place for interesting discussions. But I dumped almost all of my investment money into Bitcoin. Sorry you don't get to experience the joy of regularly making 30k in a day.

>>60788004
I love talking to you guys about mining decentralization, ASICs, security, economic incentives, Network effects, you name it. But when it comes to making money I go fuck off to bitcoin Twitter, cuz you need money to win a war which you guys seem allergic to.

>>60787829
>Bitcoin is quite literally NGU technology
100%. Until the credit crunch hits and the west falls. Then it’s going to revert to what it’s really useful for. Which is practically nothing. Especially because decline of empires corresponds to low trust societies for a few centuries. So privacy will be of the utmost importance as the world fragments.
>Now look at Monero
Moneros price goes up and down with supply and demand. Like an asset is supposed to. In a lot of ways, the marketcap of Monero IS the marketcap of crypto. If you think about it a bit more, for how much this tech is talked about vs actually used, it really is worth about the same as a 6B company.

Nobody uses Ethereum. Nobody uses Bitcoin. Monero IS crypto. And that can only be kept in place if it remains an ASIC resistant Proof of Work asset

>>60787829
bitcoin is NGU technology in the sense that the price has to keep doubling forever or the miners don't get paid enough. its security model is based on a giant gamble. and it can't double every four years forever and fees can't skyrocket either

>>60788165
Even BTC maxis know they will be forced to implement trailing emissions eventually. Which is just another thing proving their shit is straight garbage

>>60788165
>oh no my life of riches and financial security is contingent on taking 5 minutes one time and hitting sell before the game of musical chairs is over in a few decades
How will the bitcoiners ever recover

>>60780739
We need market incentives, not dreams. Maybe raising fees just a bit is the way.
I don't mine because electricity costs makes mining a money drain for me, it can't even pay for itself.

>>60788408
>We need market incentives, not dreams.
This is where these threads tend to break down. I actually don't know what the market incentives are for people that don't want to break or circumvent the law (Normalfags).

>Maybe raising fees just a bit is the way.
I'm ok with is if it attracts more miners. If we want anons to secure the blockchain then we have to pay them (or someone else will)

is it over yet

>>60788761
eth is not done pumping so no

>>60788725
>don't know what the market incentives are
MC=MR, you need to remove the parties mining Monero at zero cost, anyone running botnets, viruses, etc., who are undercutting the rest of the miners and suppressing the price. This means GPUs or ASICs. But you have to be willing to entertain the thought that the devs philosophy of "miners shouldn't expect a return on their investment" that drove them to CPU only mining, is wrong.

>>60788408
how do you "raise fees?" it's difficult to hardcode something like that. whatever number you guess will become "wrong" once the price drifts enough.

>>60788831
The devs think they can play federal reserve with fees and not have it blow up in their faces.

>>60779214
Welp, there goes my 401K.
Cashed it out and put it all on XMR because everything thing I learned about XMR suggested it was a solid investment.

And it would’ve been if not for that Qubic faggot who rightfully has a bounty on his head.

I’m still ride or die with XMR, think I’m just going to quit checking the market and focus on being a wagie.

>>60788962

Awww, lemme put ya mind at ease, anon.

Here's what you gotta realize about the average crypto baggie: he's a financially illiterate dimwit who is very easily impressed by charts and bullshit marketing narratives. This dipshit is both so stupid and blinded by greed that he cannot grasp basic ROI math and therefore gets all excited when "NUMBA GO UP" because he actually believes that the green line on the screen corresponds to newly generated wealth.

Crypto investing, in its speculative form, is essentially a greater fool’s zero-sum game: the only way you profit is by selling to someone willing to pay more, which means their future loss is your present gain. No new value is created in this transaction, coins don’t generate dividends, rent or usable goods, they just change hands at different prices.

Actual wealth creation, by contrast, comes from productive economic activity where output has inherent utility and expands the total economic pie. In a productive system, everyone can benefit because value is generated. In a pure speculation loop, your win is necessarily someone else’s loss, making the game unsustainable without an endless influx of greater fools

In other words, crypto baggies aren't actually growing wealth - they're just duping each other into buying and holding in the hopes of securing future exit liquidity. This is why Bitfags are forever yapping about how totally undervalued BTC is, its literally the only way they can profit

Monero is different because its value is in great part driven by actual economic activity. This means its NGU depends on economic use and utilitarian appeal to non-investors rather than on price manipulation and social engineering like BTC

The bad news is that this NGU requires time and lots of hard work. The good news is that this is how you know you're on solid ground. Real wealth generation requires hard work and productivity, anybody that can't grasp this simple fact this will be victimized by charlatans

>>60789528

cont.

So relax, as long as you can see actual everyday acceptance of Monero increasing, you're fine. The groundwork for a global unregulated P2P economy that will appeal to potentially tens of millions of consumers is currently being laid by hardworking agorists and should ensure a sufficient supply of exit liquidity for you in future, assuming the number of fellow XMR investors remains sufficiently low. Too many investors = the ROI math stops working = no exit liquidity for you.

You're basically just going to have to wait for XMR demand to ramp up organically, there is no NGU shortcut here. But again, that's how you know its real and sustainable.

Meanwhile, delusional "easy money" crypto baggies will continue sleeping like babies, utterly convinced that they're all destined to be millionaires just because the pretty green line on the screen went up. Ignorance sure is bliss.

>>60787829
>Monero is the currency version of a philosophical revolution that has an extremely tiny chance of succeeding (UNLESS NGU A LOT) meanwhile it keeps you in your slave job possibly forever.

What a complete load of bullshit. Both outsiders and insiders are completely wrong. Monero is an effort to finally have real internet money. Monero is the only sound internet money. There is no second best. What do I mean? First of all you need to understand what makes money good ("sound"). Gold is considered the most sound physical money. It needs to have certain properties. I'm sure you've already heard about things like being sufficiently scarce, being decentralized, having self-custody, being able to exchange it without a third party's approval, having predictable low inflation that corresponds to gold mining (tail emission to replace lost coins, in Monero terms).

There is another fundamental pillar that makes the money sound, and that's fungibilitiy. You can also call it privacy, or anonymity. This means that the money must have inherent value in and of itself. For example, if you mow a lawn and receive gold (or to simplify, even cash, if you ignore the serial numbers for the sake of the argument), but really this was the house of a gang boss and he gave you the proceeds of a crime, for you, it doesn't matter. The money is money. For another example, if you donate to a children charity, then go buy from a sex shop, these should not tie together. Even if you really are an evil criminal, sound money does not work against you, because sound money has intrinsic value, it does not care about morality or the whoever is carrying it.

Any other crypto coin except Monero, lacks this very fundamental property that makes money, money. Monero is the only form of internet money that can be considered sound money.

Monero is not a question of sticking it to the man or preventing the rich from getting richer, even if you can make arguments to that favor. Monero is not some niche "privacy" coin. It's all other coins that fail to meet a fundamental requirement of money. Monero is about having real internet money. Both good and evil, both poor and rich will have pleasure using Monero, because Monero is as close as we have to real internet money.

Bitcoin had a tragic history where it was going well but the dev abruptly left (RIP) and the network fossilized afterwards. In one of his forum posts, Satoshi described pretty much the exact privacy requirements that were not added to Bitcoin, but ended up being added to Monero. Notice that Monero started right after Satoshi left and it became obvious nothing was going to move forwards on the Bitcoin front.

Now think about if Bitcoin had the privacy and even the dynamic block features of Monero, I guarantee you it would be worth 10x of what it is right now. Had Bitcoin not failed in meeting one of the fundamental features of sound money, I would have still been a Bitcoin maximalist. As for Monero number go up, of course it's going to go up. Of course the early adopted will be rewarded. It's simply adoption curve. Storing money in Monero is adoption too of course. Everything else is bickering.

>>60779214
Last year it was a $150 stable coin that will go nowhere. Now it's a $250 not even stable coin that will go nowhere. The floor is rising. It is likely you will never be able to buy monero below 180 dollars ever again.

>>60789528>>60789533
Stay poor baketard. Moonchads GMI!

>>60785242
Feather or official GUI wallet

>>60789871
>the early adopted will be rewarded.
Bro it’s ten fucking years old

>>60789528
>he actually believes that the green line on the screen corresponds to newly generated wealth.
You need to stop posting. People sell crypto all the time. The mine is extremely real to them. Thousands of people have bought houses, cars, retired, retired their relatives, and secured a LIFETIME of freedoms because of “numba go up”.

It is completely rational, justifiable, understandable, and GOOD that people would seek this out for themselves. You’re a massive faggot for denigrating this perfectly reasonable self interest. It’s a healthy, pro social character trait.

the FUD makes me mighty bullish
seethe more (((keynesians)))
God bless motherfucking monero

>>60789863
All of this is correct, but none of this appeals to normalfags.
Normalfags buy Bitcoin because HODL MOOOOON WAGMI; normalfags maybe buy Monero to buy drugs, and that is going out of style with the newest generation of normalfags

I don't care about monero price. I only use monero to buy psychedelics so I don't hold it, the only time I have monero is at the moment of doing a transaction. The true value of monero is it being untraceable.

>>60790217
>I don't care about monero price. I only use monero to buy psychedelics so I don't hold it

Your drugs would be cheaper if Monero was $100k since vendors wouldn't have to charge you a risk premium to hedge against a well armed chud and his army of Somalians launching a fake 51% attack on Monero

>>60790217
Fuck you druggie. We are a SAEV culture here nobody cares about you getting acid. Monero to the moon.

>>60790199
>that is going out of style with the newest generation of normalfags
Kek no it isn't but they buy their drugs on the clearnet with fiat

monero is the final solution to the taxman question

>>60788831
There is already a base fee that can be changed. It's for having anonymous fee groups and to prevent tx spam which can also reduce anonymity I believe. One way to change it is to hard fork. Another way is an update to the nodes that changes the minimum fee that's relayed. This means on unupdated wallets, you will have to select normal instead of slow. If Monero moons and the fees become too much, it can be tweaked again. In my opinion anything below $1 is good and anything below $0.10 is great until we start pushing a proper scaling upgrade. The current number is wrong right now.

>>60788838
How is it going to blow up in their faces? The fee and the dynamic block size weights are already tweaked in hard forks. The last time it was done to prevent tx spam.

>>60790175
Is there a need to digitally hide fuckton of money? I unequivocally believe yes.
Is there a need to send it without appearing on record (an open one at that)? I unequivocally believe yes.
Is Monero used to anywhere near such an extent? Not even close.
The adoption curve has not even begun for Monero. Arguably Monero has not even reached 1.0 level of ready yet. That will come after FCMP++ and the finality layer. Yes we're unironically early. It has not even begun.

>>60790217
>dude i found this untraceable internet money that has not even began its adoption curve but like i'm just gonna buy some drugs with it. nah i'm not gonna invest in it. a perfect way to store money on the internet is just for spending bro.
Peak baketard. Like do you baketards realize how retarded this sounds from outside?

>>60790199
Maybe you should have told normies Monero is going to Mars because you can send it to people without anyone knowing and how much fucking money is out there that needs to be hidden. Mock them for having their transactions in the open like retards. Normies don't believe in privacy but we can peer pressure them to think it's a big deal in crypto.

>>60790180
>You need to stop posting. People sell crypto all the time. The mine is extremely real to them. Thousands of people have bought houses, cars, retired, retired their relatives, and secured a LIFETIME of freedoms because of “numba go up”.
>
>It is completely rational, justifiable, understandable, and GOOD that people would seek this out for themselves. You’re a massive faggot for denigrating this perfectly reasonable self interest. It’s a healthy, pro social character trait.

Note the lack of any actual refutation. "Yeah, sure, its a ponzi scheme but its worked out for some folks!"

And no, I will absolutely continue the brutally honest blackpilling, triggering you moofags with irrefutable math is just too much fun!

Now hurry up and start posting retarded price predictions, its been a while.

>>60790404
The finality layer is years away. It’s probably a year away from even being approved by the fucking community. It probably won’t even be ready by 2030.

I want you to seriously think about these questions. How old are you? How old do you think I am? How old do you think the people in this thread are? How long do you expect me to wait for your belief in this being the perfect money to come to fruition?

I have a life. I have a goal for my life. I want to be financially independent. I want to quit my slave job. I want to be secure and stop stressing about this shit. I want to feel nothing when ETH and other shitcoins moon because WHALES ALLIED TO THE PROJECT MADE IT HAPPEN. Meanwhile we pretend there’s no point to making money and having a warchest to fight off Moneros many enemies.

I’m not waiting until 2030. My life will essentially be over by then. There’s no point in making money at that age for me. I might as well kill myself if I have to wait that long. I’m already old as fuck as it is.

>>60790483
>its worked out for some folks
It has literally worked out for EVERYONE who ever invested in bitcoin as of today. It’s at ATH. Do you know what that means? It’s probably not a frequently used acronym in the Monero threads.

>>60790508
>It has literally worked out for EVERYONE who ever invested in bitcoin as of today. It’s at ATH. Do you know what that means?

Line went up?! Well, that settles it!

>>60790520
Yes, it does. I don’t get how you act smug about this? You’re objectively wrong.

Just bake the thread OP we all know you’re waiting to do it as soon as it hits 300 so nobody else can set the tone of Monero’s culture

>>60790533
>You’re objectively wrong.

Objectively, you say?

Make the ROI math work then. Math is as objective as it gets.

>>60790564
>Just bake the thread OP we all know you’re waiting to do it as soon as it hits 300 so nobody else can set the tone of Monero’s culture

305-ish.

>>60790404
>Maybe you should have told normies Monero is going to Mars because you can send it to people without anyone knowing and how much fucking money is out there that needs to be hidden.
People think you can do this with bitcoin, so I'm not sure if that's the way to go>>60790502
>WHALES ALLIED TO THE PROJECT MADE IT HAPPEN
This is probably another thing holding the community back. Both the whales and the devs are all tech nerds who don't particularly care about money since they've already got their bag

>>60790570
>Make the ROI math work then.
Sure thing.

As of today 8/14/25
>Everyone who ever invested in bitcoin: ROI: x+%
Everyone is in the money

>>60790598
>Everyone is in the money

Paper gains don't count, dipshit. You know full well I'm talking about realized gains.

>>60790607
That’s not how the world works. Gains are gains. The money in your bank isn’t “realizeable” either dipshit. Fractional reserve and whatnot.

Also you’re essentially saying the only money is USD in your hand? It’s fucking retarded.

>>60790613
So you agree Bitcoin is a scam of the same degree as fractional reserve banking?

>>60790502
We need whale allies.

>>60790613
As a moneromoonboymaxipadtard, I want anonymous internet money, so if my Monero goes up in dollars, that's a pretty realized gain for me.

>>60790613

See? You can't make the math work so you gotta resort to boneheaded distractions.

And you can't make the math work because exponential gains require exponential inflows, which in turn require even more exponential inflows because the providers of said inflows are also expecting exponential returns.

Its a ponzi scheme and you need everybody to believe it isnt so you can profit from it.

>>60790632
Financialization makes the world go round. By ignoring it you’re condemning Monero to the Middle Ages

>>60790613
>>60790607
Listen here whippersnapper. I worked for my money. Busted my ass all summer to afford a house doing a real job. Not like you millennials with your lah de dah computers and your fancy German söy lattes. And I got paid real money for it. Real cold hard cash right there in my hand. You kids don't know the meaning of hard work with your internet coins. None of it is real, none of it. You just gotta buckle down, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, go in there, talk to the boss, give him a firm handshake and you can get yourself a real job too. Put down the avacado toast, start eating rice and beans, and you can get yourself a house too in a good 60 years of hard work. I'll even sell you one of mine myself.

NEW THREAD: >>60790647
>NEW THREAD: >>60790647
NEW THREAD: >>60790647
>NEW THREAD: >>60790647
NEW THREAD: >>60790647
>NEW THREAD: >>60790647

>>60790642
>>60790644

>>60790644
No, it makes the world go to shit.

>>60790642
Inflows into Bitcoin and liquidity are higher than inflows/liquidity for Monero. Despite the latter all being based on "hard work" and "reality" Monero holders would get rugged if they all tried to cash out way harder than Bitcoiners would.

did monero just crash to 0? haveno price thing has been down for days

>>60789871
yeah but the democratic governments really badly don't want you to have that. the reason digitalization is being pushed so hard and fast is because it will let them track and control you better than anyone in the history could even imagine in his wildest fantasies and monero is a direct attack against all that

>>60790260
What risk premium? Drugs will never be cheaper than they are on the dw

>>60790750
Well I don't remember Bitcoin being explained as something the democratic governments want either.
>digitization
Yeah. The "smart money". The stuff the "smart" contract and CDBC assholes are pursuing hook line and sinker.
Here's the thing: I'm not sure I want my money to be fucking smart. I want my money to be dumb. I don't want my money to ever think about where it came from or where it is going and do shit based on that. I DON'T WANT SOME SMART-ASS MONEY START TALKING TO ME.

>>60790962
Less monero liquidity means more monero lost to premiums/fees during swaps.

>>60790283
fuck off retard

>>60790199
>that is going out of style with the newest generation of normalfags

The only two ways to buy drugs are Monero and fiat, and the latter is dangerous in exact proportion to how well the laws are enforced. No other cryptocurrency serves this purpose.

Drugs themselves go in and out of style among the young, which is the group most likely to engage in such high risk activities.

holy shit, they are going for it?!