Thread 60790647

Welcome to the /XMR/ Monero General, dedicated to the discussion of the world's most widely adopted privacy coin.

Monero payments are anonymous, low-fee by design and fully fungible, meaning users can send XMR globally without issue and receive XMR without having to worry about tainted coins. Battle-tested privacy tech (Ring Signatures, Stealth Addresses and RingCT) ensures that critical TX data cannot be gleaned from the Monero blockchain. Thus by default, the TX history of all Monero users is kept hidden from the prying eyes of adversaries, with TXs being optionally transparent via the aid of a view key.

Monero algorithmically ensures low TX fees by employing a dynamic (elastic) block size that can "stretch" to easily accommodate sudden TX spikes.

Monero's bespoke mining algorithm, RandomX, is optimized for devices using general-purpose CPUs e.g. desktops, laptops, smartphones, tablets, keeping the barrier to entry low and ASICs out of the equation.

Monero's tail emission - 0.6 XMR every block forever - financially incentives for-profit miners to keep mining, helping boost long-term network security. This constant linear inflation asymptotically trends to zero and is offset somewhat by a steady rate of coin loss.

Monero has thus far proven to be the only altcoin capable of overcoming BTC's network effect by driving it out of the darknet economy BTC dominated for over 10 years. Monero is now also starting to overtake BTC in clearnet commerce as well. See below.

If you still have questions, feel free to ask and a MoneroChad will be with you shortly.


XMR Redpill: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=wq6w03E2DS4

XMR Resources: https://libereco.xyz/resources/

XMR Stats: moneroj.net

USE XMR: https://cryptwerk.com/pay-with/xmr/

OFFICIAL WEBSITE - getmonero.org

WHERE TO BUY XMR: https://i.imgur.com/XdppsQ7.png
Crypto ATMs: see kycnot.me

>MINING
archive.is/TWOah

HOW TO STORE MONERO?

>Desktop
Official GUI/CLI
Featherwallet

>Mobile
IOS: Cakewallet
Android: Monerujo

PREVIOUS THREAD: >>60779198

***** DISCLAIMER *****

The creator of this thread actively discourages holding Monero. We, the broader community of Monero, do not agree with him. Buying and holding Monero is a completely legitimate way to participate in the protocol, and we encourage you to save your wealth in XMR.

XMR is THE best store of value in the world. Not only is it highly scarce, it is entirely untraceable by any third party. No other store of value, including Bitcoin, provides the ability to anonymously hold your wealth anywhere in the world. Armed with only your seed phrase, you can literally take your private bank account anywhere without the consent or permission of anyone. It is like having an invisible stockpile of gold only you know about.

Privacy will be increasingly rare in the coming years, but the supply of Monero will barely increase. Many people understand that Monero represents the most undervalued asset in the world.

***ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER***

The creator of this thread has been credibly accused of being a federal agent. He actively pushes all potential holders of Monero away unless they agree with only using XMR in bartering scenarios. He will use straw manning tactics against anyone who advocates for saving their wealth in XMR. Anyone suggesting that Monero can preserve and hide their wealth will be called a "grifter", "moonfag", or any of several other slurs intended to end the conversation.

These tactics support the state apparatus directly by denying Monero the notoriety it deserves. Widespread use of Monero, especially through wealth preservation, starves the state of key financial information and tax farming. Pretending there is only one "legitimate" use of Monero (bake sales at Porcfest) while shunning any other uses foments fake division, a favorite strategy of the intelligence community.

Remember that many authors (W. Rees-Mogg, The Sovereign Individual) predict that states will get increasingly "nasty" as private currencies threaten their power of surveillance. The OP has strategically installed himself as the self-appointed "leader" of Monero on this board, but has no such authority to tell you how to use the best currency ever invented.

START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL
START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL

P2Pool combines the advantages of pool and solo mining; you still fully control your Monero node and what it mines, but you get frequent payouts like on a regular pool.

P2Pool has no central server that can be shut down/blocked because it uses a separate blockchain to merge mine with Monero. There's no pool admin that can control what your hashrate is used for or decide who can mine on the pool and who can't. It's permissionless!

Decentralized pool mining (P2Pool) is pretty much the ultimate way to secure a PoW coin against 51% attacks. Once P2Pool reaches & maintains 51%+ of the total network hashrate, Monero will be essentially invulnerable to such attacks.

Although many inexperienced miners think that bigger pools give better profits, this is absolutely NOT the case. Your profits in the long run depend ONLY on your hashrate, NOT on the pool's hashrate.


>YOU CAN NOW MINE IN P2POOL FASTER & EASIER THAN EVER BEFORE WITH THE GUPAX GUI. USES TRUSTED REMOTE NODES BY DEFAULT!!!!

1. Download the *bundled* version of Gupax for your OS here: https://gupax.io/downloads/
2. Extract somewhere (Desktop, Documents, etc)
3. Launch Gupax
4. Input your Monero address in the [P2Pool] tab. USE A SEPARATE MINING-ONLY WALLET!
5. Select a Community Monero Node that you trust, although you can and should run your own node if possible.
6. Start P2Pool
7. Start XMRig

VIDEO GUIDE: https://gupax.io/guide/

You are now mining to your own instance of P2Pool, welcome to the world of decentralized peer-to-peer mining!

>NOTE THAT DUE TO BOTNET SHENANIGANS XMRIG IS AUTO-FLAGGED AS MALWARE BY MOST ANTI-VIRUSES, SO DON'T FREAK OUT!!!


OLD GUIDE FOR P2POOL MINING FROM THE MONERO GUI WALLET: https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/eecbe

https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroMining
https://web.xmrpool.eu/xmr-monero-easy-mining-guide.html
https://monero.hashvault.pro/en/getting-started
https://www.supportxmr.com

*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****


Learn more about Monero's key features and excellent future prospects, have some common misconceptions dispelled and discover the cold hard facts about Bitcoin, Zcash and PirateChain. Also featured is a noob-friendly buying, storage and wallet guide.


>Monero: it's what new Bitcoin users think they bought. Every feature, explained
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org


>Why Monero is so untraceable: a rundown of the powerful stealth tech Monero utilizes
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroIsUntraceable


>The Writing on the Wall: Monero replacing Bitcoin as the new standard
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroReplacingBitcoin


>Breaking News: no, Monero still isn't traceable
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#RecognizingTraceabilityFUD


>Vaporware: why nobody is worried about CipherTrace's magic crystal ball
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#CipherTraceFail


>Very Clever Math: how we can verify that the XMR supply isn't being inflated
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#MuhInflationBug


>Pssst, wanna buy some Monero? Follow these simple how-to guides
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BuyAndStoreMonero


>Bitcoin: The Original Non-Fungible Token
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BitcoinBlackpill


>Why Monero is Better than Zcash: the "privacy coin" criminals won't touch
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#ZcashBlackpill


>The Lowdown on PirateChain: why this Zcash clone is considered a scam
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#PirateChainBlackpill


>LATEST UPDATES

- added Proof-of-Stake update to Zcash Blackpill
- added list of available desktop/mobile wallets
- expanded all sections with more relevant info, graphics & videos
- added easily linkable headers and sub-headers (link icon to the far right)
- added a new section about traceability FUD

Never forget what this is ultimately all about. Don't be a HODLtard.

https://archive.is/YBnPG
https://freedomcells.org/

>Help grow the circular Monero economy: buy/sell goods & services with/for XMR!

https://monerica.com/
https://xmrbazaar.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/moneromarket/new/
https://kycnot.me/?t=service&q=&xmr=on

>Shop on Amazon with XMR!
https://monezon.com
https://peershop.app

>Live off XMR with Cake Pay (now available in 140+ countries!)
https://cakepay.com/

>or with CoinCards
https://coincards.com/


>Monero stickers for guerilla marketing
http://monerosupplies.com/

>Anonymous burner phone numbers
https://silent.link/

>Monero-only VPS hosting
https://kyun.host/

>Win XMR!
https://monero.vegas/


Say buh-bye to Bitcoin and support the growing number of Monero-only darknet markets/vendors.

# = recently launched, exercise caution

>Alias Market #
>Asur Market
>Babylon #
>Calypso #
>Candy Haven #
>Chimera Market
>Cloud Market
>Cypher Market
>Dark Matter
>DrugHub #
>DrugTown #
>Drugula #
>FilthyFellas
>Gofish Market #
>Gramazon #
>Hectate Market #
>Mercury Market #
>Pygmalion's Refuge
>Retro Market
>Smackers
>Sonanza Market #
>Squid Market
>SuperMarket #
>Tribe Seuss
>Whales Market #
>Wizard's Palace #
>World Trade Center #
Links: https://pastebin.com/raw/fF95wTNi


Anonymously exchange BTC for XMR using a reputable darknet service

>Infinity Project
https://pastebin.com/raw/75mVpfED

or a reputable clearnet service

https://trocador.app/en/ | I2P: http://trocador.i2p/en/
https://xmrswap.me
https://unstoppableswap.net
http://basicswapdex.com


>Want to support further development?
https://ccs.getmonero.org/donate/
https://monerofund.org/

>Join a Monero Workgroup and (potentially) earn XMR!!!
https://www.getmonero.org/community/workgroups/

>Want more Monero-chan?
https://www.monerochan.art/

>How to *safely* acquire, store and spend XMR

An optimal XMR user set-up involves 2 separate wallets: an offline cold wallet (savings account) and an online hot wallet (chequing account) for everyday spending. XMR amounts larger than a few hundred dollars worth should not be stored on a hot wallet for obvious reasons. So ideally, you'll want to direct all payments/donations to your cold wallet by default and then transfer smaller amounts over to your hot wallet as necessary.

Relying on 3rd party hardware wallets comes with certain security caveats so they are not recommended. Instead, its surprisingly easy to engineer a very robust storage solution yourself using readily available hardware: a laptop and a smartphone.

>Laptop

This will be running Featherwallet and must be *permanently* disabled from ever connecting to the internet again! That means physically removing the M.2 Bluetooth/Wi-Fi card and gumming up the ethernet port with superglue.

OS should be Linux rather than Windows, preferably a Debian-based lightweight distro. Encrypting the relevant user directory with LUKS is recommended but not essential.

It must have a functional webcam.


>Smartphone

This can be your primary device. It will host both your hot wallet e.g. Cake, Monerujo, etc and the NERO view-only wallet that is paired with your laptop.

To set everything up: https://4rkal.com/posts/feathernero/

NOTE: if you don't have a laptop you can use another smartphone and install the ANON wallet onto it, its essentially the same thing but with somewhat weaker security guarantees. Video guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJqYzZyqyno

>In a nutshell

- you accept all (substantial) payments to your cold wallet.
- you monitor incoming payments on NERO.
- you initiate the transfer of funds from your cold wallet to hot wallet on NERO and sign the TX on your laptop via QR codes.
- you spend the funds and help grow the XMR economy.


FYI this is the most secure storage solution currently available.

>Bitcoin's price = NOT the result of organic real-world supply & demand = NOT sustainable

Wash trading has been artificially driving BTC's insane price action since the first major spike in 2013.

>Wash Trading 101
1. create/maintain the illusion of high volume
2. wait for poor unsuspecting fools to FOMO in
3. dump at a fat profit and leave them holding the bag

When the supply of gullible fools finally runs out, the entire scheme implodes.

TL;DR: exciting price action means nothing in an unregulated market rife with such manipulation, real-world utilization is the ONLY reliable metric of actual value.

>>60790644
>Financialization makes the world go round. By ignoring it you’re condemning Monero to the Middle Ages

See? You can't make the math work so you gotta resort to boneheaded distractions.

And you can't make the math work because exponential gains require exponential inflows, which in turn require even more exponential inflows because the providers of said inflows are also expecting exponential gains.

Its a ponzi scheme and you need everybody to believe it isn't so you can profit from it.

>>60790725
You’re a fed trying to force Monero into obscurity. Fuck you.

>>60790742
>You’re a fed trying to force Monero into obscurity. Fuck you.

See? You can't make the math work so you gotta resort to boneheaded distractions.

And you can't make the math work because exponential gains require exponential inflows, which in turn require even more exponential inflows because the providers of said inflows are also expecting exponential gains.

Its a ponzi scheme and you need everybody to believe it isn't so you can profit from it.

Last thread was so based. I highly recommend it for anyone who wants some decent reading material

>>60790663

>>60790725
>Its a ponzi scheme and you need everybody to believe it isn't so you can profit from it.
The problem is that you're correct. Everyone does believe in it, and those who don't don't care as long as there's profits to be made.
This MaaS (Monero-as-a-Servicr) idea needs to be killed for the good of the community. Monero is money. Money is not a service.

I think it’s funny people are cheering Bitcoin on just because it’s at all time high and we aren’t. It’s being bought by creditors because of financial nihilism. At least the fake US Dollar has a military projecting it. It’s backed by a military. Bitcoin is backed by its usefulness. Which is fucking nothing.

When push comes to shove and people need somewhere to flee, it literally has to be us.

>>60790725
Monero liquidity would dry up way faster than Bitcoin's if people tried to sell. So it must be that much more a clown world ponzi if one person can pump and dump it like was done 2 months ago.

>>60790725
>>60790764
Jesus Christ We've been talking to an llm bot this entire time, haven't we?

Why is syncing so slow? It says 5 months to sync now. Neither my CPU nor Internet connection seem to be the bottleneck. I'm syncing to a HDD. Is that the problem?

>>60790983
>I'm syncing to a HDD. Is that the problem?
Yes

>>60790989
Alright, I'll try with bcache. If that doesn't help I'll just have to wait.

>Bitcoin down 5,000 today. We don’t move with it
>Bitcoin up in recent months. We don’t move with it
Our price change is from our own demand and issues. We are so decoupled from the rest of the space it’s not even funny. Counter-Economy is a great term to describe what we have.

I buy drugs with monero but I wish I could buy monerochan

>>60790995
>HDD
You are going to suffer. It has to do random reads over the whole blockchain. You aren't caching that. Just use SSD.

>>60790983
you using tor or similar?

>>60791014
what happened to haveno? did it drop too much and they had to hide it?

>>60790964
>I think it’s funny people are cheering Bitcoin on just because it’s at all time high and we aren’t. It’s being bought by creditors because of financial nihilism. At least the fake US Dollar has a military projecting it. It’s backed by a military. Bitcoin is backed by its usefulness. Which is fucking nothing.

Yep. The closest BTC ever came to being a potentially legit investment was when hordes of normies were buying it to go shopping on Silk Road, you'd be getting cashed out by prospective spenders with no expectation of an ROI. As soon as that paradigm flipped and every buyer became an investor, the ponzi math kicked in. And so it remains.

>When push comes to shove and people need somewhere to flee, it literally has to be us.

Indeed. Monero gets clowned on as "the coin that does nothing because its actually used" but rest assured everybody with half a clue understands that being backed by actual economic activity makes XMR the only truly safe harbor in ALL of crypto.

But who the fuck is willing to exchange their precious XMR for a dying shitcoin during the Cryptopocalypse is another matter altogether lol

>tradeogre has been down for over 2 weeks
I had no money on there but its the only exchange I used and it makes me sad.

>>60791014
>Our price change is from our own demand and issues
>Counter-Economy is a great term to describe what we have.
Funny enough this is what we've been fighting for and now that we have it, some of us want to refuse demand from people because le feelosophy.

>>60791167
money isn't really an investment on its own and you don't really need the military stuff either. like you suggested there you need business taking payments in crypto. this creates legitimate value and gets rid of the speculative asset status. dollars aren't that magical either and depend on trust and the fact that they are a widely accepted method to pay and get paid for things

>>60791153
Well, it's worth a try. Much faster so far. Like 100x. I'll see how it goes as the cache fills.
>>60791158
Yes, but disabling it doesn't matter. The HDD is definitely the bottleneck.

>>60791197
>money isn't really an investment on its own

Yes, though in theory crypto can work as a legit investment as long as its being sold as a utility with no expectation of a ROI.

The perpetual ROI factor is precisely what dooms the BTC investment paradigm: everybody buying it now expects to realize exponential gains, making implosion inevitable at some point.

An investment paradigm where millions of consumers are seeking access to the digital counter-economy to buy smuggled Prada bags and iPhones at discount prices works out mathematically as long as there's an exponential number of shoppers for every XMR holder. Hence why the total number of XMR investors needs to remain low lest exit liquidity dries up.

Its really all just basic math in the end, if you can make it work then with a little luck you actually can profit handsomely.

>>60791164
Just look at the price on kraken or something, it's about 253

>>60791020
>I wish I could buy monerochan
You can! See, they made her into a memecoin so unlike Monero it may even go up.
https://monerochan.biz/

Saw this post on reddit:
>Proof of work algorithms work because it's cheaper to verify a hash than it is to discover it.
>Q-tips "Useful" PoW is not based on an algorithm that is easier to verify than to discover. Specifically, things like matrix multiplies or back propagation take the same amount of work to verify as to compute (the only way to verify is to compute it).
>It seems the way they get around this is by stochastic sampling; they only verify a small percentage of actual hashes.
>I think I see a sybil attack in the works... "Q-tips" network could be seriously gunked up with noise. I'm very concerned about them. I wouldn't want anything to happen.
>This thread mainly for discussing technicals of such an operation, so we can let Q-tip know, of course.
Any thoughts?

>>60790978
"Monero can't have any value for the same reason all cryptos can't have any value; they are all ponzi schemes"

I think I summed up everything that retarded LLM has shit into the noosphere, did I miss anything of import?

>>60791532
>https://monerochan.biz/

Oh, I remember this one! CryptoBear is the lead dev, right? Actually appreciate its potential to highlight the Monero effort without harming the XMR coin itself.

This is what you salty moonfags should be shilling instead of XMR. I'm serious, given Monero's ever-growing profile and likely future infamy, this is one meme token that has a realistic shot at being more than just a quick pump & dump. In fact, I could see this being the next DOGE due to her being an established, organic meme with an existing and devoted fanbase.

Just don't be scumbags and ruin her reputation with a shameless rugpull.

>>60791880
>CryptoBear is the lead dev, right?
Yeah. I checked my balance and I actually still have some. I'm surprised it's still at six figure mcap. Maybe it's just an Ethereum thing. If this was a solana meme coin it would have gone down to like $10k macap.

Still gonna moonboy Monero though. I'm less convinced about Monerochan becoming such a big memecoin than Monero itself mooning to $10000 (which it will 100%).

>>60791847
>Monero is a currency but you can't hold it and it will never go up.
>Monero is a ponzi because you can't all cash out at the same time.
>Monero is a stock in anonymous internet money company.
>Monero is stock in organized crime.
>Monero will prevent the rich from getting rich.
>Monero is a technology at the start of its adoption curve and will 100x.
...

>>60792063
>I'm less convinced about Monerochan becoming such a big memecoin than Monero itself mooning

Well, that's what I was getting at - Monero's success also makes Monero-chan more famous, which in turn could prove beneficial for the official Monero-chan token. You know how these crypto degens think.


>to $10000 (which it will 100%).

I agree, eventually.

>>60791847
It's been so long since I've seen that pic.

>>60779291
what's with the chud fud? what did this lil nigga do?

>>60792681
>>what's with the chud fud? what did this lil nigga do?

Looks like todays attempt has started

>>60792690
>shitty opsec
nothing new under the sun

>>60792681
Selfish mined 51/100 blocks one time and claimed it was a successful
51% attack

>>60792764
ooo now this is something more spicy. yeah, the only real problem monero has is not enough people mining it.

>>60792733
Everyone should be mining if they have a new CPU

>>60792779
Why? What's in it for me?

>>60792764
This didn't even actually happen, he just claimed it did. The only thing that happened was a reorg (six blocks) which has zero effect on the final canonical chain beyond being kind of annoying.
>>60792779
Even older CPUs are fine, I have half of my 3700x mining, it works well
>>60792791
teh lulz

>>60792791
30 cents a day and protecting the integrity of the chain

>>60792813
>>60792844
Those aren't tangible benefits to me. Even if I make the most ass-tier 7950X build I can, that's not even capable of gaming on (we're talking a ventroo cooler and a GT 1030 GPU), I still won't ROI for 3.5 years. And that's assuming new CPUs don't come out.

>>60792883
I am gaming on my PC right now (playing Elin), listening to music, and shitposting. The only thing I really need those other four cores for is compiling shit. The entire point of RandomX is that it really isn't that profitable to buy dedicated hardware to mine with. Your ROI decreases the more you move away from just load balancing spare compute or running the PC you already have at night when electricity is cheap and you're asleep anyway.

# Responsive af system while mining Monero in the background btw
pacman -S linux-zen
systemctl edit xmrig
[Unit]
Nice=19
CPUSchedulingPolicy=idle
IOSchedulingClass=idle

>>60792813
Kek that's even worse.
>>60792775
A lot of folks in this community unironically believe that miners are egalitarian service providers and not profit seeking contractors

>>60792911
Welp if I mined on my home computer I'd be losing 3 cents a day after electricity. Not buying dedicated hardware is even worse. If Monero mining is only supposed to be for nerd prosumers who already have a decked out threadripped build just because, then that's fucking gay.

>>60792911
>when electricity is cheap
I live in the UK, my electricity is never cheap.

The whales need to throw money at the devs until finality is implemented then just stake. Enough with this bullshit.

>>60793002
There are retards who still say shit like
>What if we increased transaction fees to 2 cents but then the price rose
We will worry about such good to have problems later. Right now the network needs security budget.

>>60793042
I mean you can’t beat Moore’s law. If you have an out of date CPU you can’t expect to contribute as much or get paid as much. I have an i9-14900k and get over 10,000 H/s with my computer never lagging even while gaming.

This is the ideal setup for a protected chain. Average people with up to date PCs just mine in decentralized fashion with no specialized hardware.

>>60793135
It's not even an out of date CPU. It's a Ryzen 7 from 2023 but because I didn't build some elite gamer shit I'm not allowed to participate without losing money and if I want to build a dedicated mining machine I also don't get to participate without losing money. You guys are fucking gay, preaching that mining should be accessible to everyone, but then it's inaccessible to all but niche compuslop prosumers.

AI summary of yesterday's MRL meeting as it pertains to the Pubic situation:


Qubic is a distributed computation protocol that can be repurposed for various off-chain tasks — including potentially being adapted to perform proof-of-work–like computations. The concern raised was that if a Qubic-based system were integrated into mining infrastructure, it might offer attackers a way to coordinate or optimize computations outside Monero’s intended consensus pathways, potentially undermining network integrity.

Participants broke down how Qubic operates without a blockchain, instead relying on an asynchronous, consensus-less communication model where tasks are assigned, computed, and results are verified independently. The speculative attack scenario was that Qubic could be used to offload mining computations to a distributed network, obscuring where hashpower is coming from and possibly enabling manipulation if a single entity controlled enough Qubic computation nodes.

The group assessed Monero’s susceptibility and concluded that, given Monero’s use of RandomX — which is deliberately designed to be CPU-optimized and memory-hard — such an attack would be impractical without significant breakthroughs in either Qubic integration or RandomX circumvention. Additionally, because Qubic does not natively provide Sybil resistance or proof-of-work security, integrating it into Monero mining at scale would be risky and likely inefficient compared to current methods.

Ultimately, they agreed that the Qubic attack was largely a theoretical, low-probability vector rather than an imminent threat. However, it was considered a valuable thought experiment for considering unconventional attack surfaces — especially those that could arise from the intersection of blockchain mining and external distributed computing platforms. They decided to keep monitoring developments in Qubic and similar technologies, as future advancements might make such unconventional vectors more practical.

>>60793178
>AI summary
kys pajeet it's probably wrong as usual

>>60792180
what game is that

>>60792942
38/100 -> 39/100
to the arms
also now it cannot load
any other sources?

46/100 blocks
bros....

>>60793077
>finality blocks
Doesn't p2pool already do this? If I understand correctly, p2pool can't(or is at least designed not to) mine invalid blocks and always publishes a block when it's found anyways. In other words it never causes chain splits or reorgs

???

>>60793771
xmr is almost dead

>>60793818
it was doa

>>60793429
rip xmr

>>60793855
who are they going to attack first ? the exchanges ?

Will be a pretty historic event if they manage to pull it off. They’re within 5-8% of doing it. You guys should all be mining if you can.

Even if it gets attacked it’s for the better. The devs will be forced to implement something that will protect us from a nation state level attack later down the road.

>>60793870
do we know this guy is malicious 51% or non-malicious 51% pool
is he really going to do the attack or just simply do a demo lol ?

Is the market really dumb enough to fall for such obvious fakery? How long before the technically illiterate understand this and we begin a violent upward correction?

>>60793902
>>60793870
He's literally lying.

>>60793916
so u saying https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero is lying and their stat is fake ?

>>60793902
I think he is just gonna do a demo but imo he should really try to do as much damage as he can to the project so we can adapt and overcome however we need to. Realistically a government could do what this guys doing at the drop of a hat. If we can’t prevent that in the long run, we’re toast.

I say torch it. Double spend, reorganize blocks, censor transactions, all of it. I hope the price drops in the process. I’ll take some sub $160 XMR again any day

>>60793933
if all the thing u said is done its at least double digit for xmr

>>60793932
Yes, it's fake.

>>60793941
sauce or check price

>>60793932
Use a calculator. The hash of each individual pool is self reported; the network hash is not.

>>60793940
I mean the moment the attack starts the CEX’s will just stop accepting sell orders on the token. They can just print endless amount of them.

The funny thing will be the DEX’s where the guy can just trade for BTC endlessly dumping the price of XMR on there.

The whole thing will be a shitshow and I’m sure will result in a hard fork.

“XMR Classic” like ETH classic lmfao

>>60793952
so what is the real hash rate for qubic pool ?

Just look at the chain, it's a "successful" if they actually take over the chain. 51% only says that you will have the dominant chain eventually, transient spikes are pointless. Realistically they need more like 60-70% to do anything.

>>60793952
They still have 40%+ of the hashrate either way as it stands right now

>>60793961
this weekend going to be interesting

>>60793958
less than 2 GH/s

>>60793961
the price of xmr right now depends on qubic hasharte lol
if it drops price go up if it rises price goes down lol
pretty lame faggot manipulation lmao

>>60793982
I would guess qubic is short xmr, I don't know why they wouldn't be.

>>60793870
>>60793902
>>60793932
The hashrate is self reported. It's all FUD.

>>60794013
then who is behind the jew ?
one person can't pull this shit show off

>>60794013
I would agree on this, something is not adding up, look at qubics own graph on their website then check the network hash graph in miningpoolstats. Someone is lying

The network hashrate doesn't match the total reported hashrate, that should be a dead giveaway

>>60793964
Which they've demonstrated before
>>60793968
And they'll need at least 6 for 51%

this shitcoin is going to 0, they don't need to consistently hit a 51% attack, just every so often to make people lose faith in the consensus

sell before its too late

>>60794026
Well is there anything stopping someone from making a pool and sending a fake number to the API?

Chain reorgs in practice are very shallow, usually just a few blocks.

If an attacker suddenly gained 51%+ hashrate, they could start secretly mining their own fork from a block that’s, say, 1-2 minutes old, then release it to override the public chain. The deeper back they try to go, the harder it gets because they’d have to “catch up” and overtake all honest miners work from that point forward.

When the attacker tries to reorganize older blocks, they must “burn resources” in the sense that their machines are running at full power, consuming electricity, generating heat, and wearing down hardware, yet earning no mining rewards during the attempt. They begin by choosing a block in the past to fork from, then secretly mining their own private chain from that point onward. Meanwhile, the honest network continues adding blocks to the public chain. To succeed, the attacker’s private chain must eventually catch up to and surpass the honest chain in total proof-of-work. Until that moment, every block they mine in secret is worthless, meaning they are spending time and money on a chain that may never be accepted. The farther back they choose to start, the more blocks they must replace, which multiplies the wasted hashing and makes it increasingly likely the network will detect and respond before they can overtake it.

To reorganize blocks from more than a day ago, they’d need to have 80–90% of the hashrate, because with only a slim majority the honest chain’s head start is too large to overcome. At that depth, the attacker must replace hundreds of blocks while the rest of the network continues to extend the legitimate chain.

>>60794082
any other miningstat website ?

>>60794150
Yeah, people seem to think monero will explode the second someone passes 51% of total hashrate (greater than 100% of the non-adversarial hashrate). All this guarantees is that the adversarial chain will eventually be longer. Hashrate itself is only a proxy for how often you find blocks, which is what actually matters. Every time anyone finds a block they, for a moment, have "100%" of the rate of the whole chain. It only actually matters if they can sustain that hashrate. That's how you get graphs like this that show that qubic maintained 80%!!!!!! of the total number of blocks for a few minutes or so, but were only ever hitting 30% or 40% of blocks found. They can do reorgs (waste legitimate miner's resources) but that's about it. Deep reorgs aren't realistically going to happen, and I don't think they have enough money to actually pull off a 51% attack for enough time for it to actually do anything.
I expect they'll bring much more compute online somehow in a few days because it would be insane to make it this far and then just quit right before the point where they actually accomplish anything, but I don't think they'll be able to keep it up for very long.
The actual problem for monero is that a single schizophrenic retard can do this much damage, it's certainly not optimal.

>>60794108
This is actually a great idea
>start pool named cum-Frum-behind
>report it as 1337 Gh/s
>post on twigger

Let’s say an attacker wants to double-spend 500 XMR at an exchange that will not credit USD for at least 20 minutes. At the moment they deposit, they immediately begin secretly mining a private fork that excludes the deposit and instead sends the same 500 XMR back to themselves. Because they start right away, they are racing the honest chain from the very first block, keeping the gap small. With around 70% of the total Monero hashrate, they have strong odds of overtaking the public chain before the 20 minutes are up. But with only 55–60%, it would be a risky gamble. 80% or more of the hashrate would make success virtually certain. And if they succeed, they can release their fork just as the exchange credits the USD, making the deposit vanish from history.

If they waited until after being credited to start mining their fork, they would be far behind, needing to replace many more blocks, which would be slow, risky, and likely detected before any withdrawal could succeed.

Now if they send 500 XMR to themselves three times in quick succession and then try to overwrite the last 1-2 blocks, all they’re really doing is replacing their own transactions with more of their own transactions. They’re not creating extra XMR. The consensus rules enforce the total supply and make sure each coin can only be spent once. If they try to “spend” the same 500 XMR in three different transactions and then keep all three, the chain will reject the duplicates as invalid.

The only way to profit from a double-spend is if the overwritten transaction paid someone else (like an exchange, merchant, or counterparty) who gave them something of value in return before the fork was published. Without that external trade, overwriting blocks just reshuffles their own wallet. It doesn’t conjure new coins.

>>60794354
With a DEX that instantly swapped to BTC it could be much worse. They could steal large sums of BTC from the decentralized exchange. But with BTC being so shit and traceable, there’s a quite high likeliness that those funds would be sanctioned.

Especially with an attack that would get this much coverage and media attention. Not to mention the guy doing the attack is public.

>>60794211
kek

Another common concern with an attacker having the majority of Monero’s hashrate, is they can simply refuse to include certain transactions in the blocks they mine.

Because the network always follows the longest valid chain, if their chain is growing faster than everyone else’s, honest miners’ blocks that do include the censored transactions will get orphaned (discarded) whenever the attacker’s chain overtakes them. This forces the network to act as though those transactions never happened, even if other miners keep trying to add them.

However on Monero they can’t reliably know who’s who, because addresses and amounts are hidden by stealth addresses and RingCT. All they see is an anonymous transaction blob, so widespread address-based censorship is basically impossible on Monero. At best, they can try to block everything except their own transactions, but that’s just a full network freeze, not targeted censorship.

All in All:
>Even 55-60% of the hashrate is arguably not even enough to trick an exchange with a double spend
>censorship attacks on Monero are pointless to even do as they can’t tell who’s who. On Bitcoin, 51% attacks would be much worse as they could specifically not allow certain people to send funds.
>The whole thing is very costly for them
>They aren’t even winning
Fuck them. I’m bored.

I guess one last thing to consider is even without targeting anyone specific, a majority miner could deliberately reorg 2-3 blocks repeatedly just to cause disruption.

Each time they do it, any transactions confirmed in those overwritten blocks vanish from the chain and go back to “unconfirmed” in the mempool. That means merchants, exchanges, and users would see payments disappear and have to wait for them to be re-mined, sometimes multiple times. Even if the coins aren’t stolen, it creates uncertainty, slows down settlement, and makes Monero feel unreliable.

If done consistently, that kind of nuisance attack could hurt confidence in the network, especially among services that rely on fast, irreversible settlement. Which is why maintaining decentralization of hash power is still important.

What are the Monero devs actually doing about this though?? Like have they even started to put a plan in place?

>>60794446
>What are the Monero devs actually doing about this though?? Like have they even started to put a plan in place?
Worknig

>>60794446
Not sure if this is the Devs themselves
https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/136

>>60794446
You talk like a fuckin mommies boy.

In this world things of real value exist on the fringes of risk & danger. There’s no bailouts or superhero’s to come and save the day like you’ve been taught all your life.

Basically what happens if the shit gets fucked is a hard fork happens and people agree on which one is the more legitimate chain. There’s no way out of consequences when you engage with the laws of nature the way Monero does. This is literally savage technology.

>>60794489
They better not expect compensation for their time. That would be a return on investment, not allowed. We need to shut down the entire CCS so that everyone can contribute for free without ever profiting from their investment of time and effort, the way cypherpunk jesus intended.

It's funny how all of Monero's supposed advantages have been evaporating.
>Better fees than Bitcoin
Not after several fee hikes to keep the chain viable
>Better for real life purchases. 0-conf transactions can be trusted
Now every vendor is going to make you wait half an hour, just to make sure there's not a reorg

>>60793077
Proof-of-stake is not the solution. Monero has too much trading volume concentrated on a few exchanges. If a major Monero exchange is robbed the robbers could use those coins to 51% the blockchain and there's no way to reverse it.

>>60795138
you have a community-led hard fork, like with most things.

>>60794499
it will be wownero,
mark my words

>>60793042
>if I mined I'd be losing $0.03 a day!!!!!
>pays $10,000,000 in fees and gas when going from fiat to any crypto bought off an exchange

>>60795151
No reputable coin has ever rolled back its blockchain to reverse an exchange theft. Even the famous DAO incident only reversed a single smart contract on the ETH chain. If Monero did a rollback to reverse an exchange theft it would instantly become a shitcoin and price would collapse.

>>60794499
no. usually what happens is people lose trust in the coin and its over

XMR's reputation is already dogshit to the point that major online crypto retailers like bitrefill don't accept it, and now you're saying one retard can manipulate the price and reputation on his own by lying how he has 51%+ hashrate and people are worried now? Genuinely, what is the plan for XMR now?

Well I woke up and see no reorgs. Nothing ever happens.

>>60795244
Kek this. Retards really come to Monero because, if they're not trolling, they clearly care about having anonymous internet money, then they're like:
>Spending extra 10 cents on electricity a day? What's in it for me?
Might unironically be poorfag druggies that can't afford it.

>>60795459
they don't accept it because of governments. democracies hate nothing more than an untraceable coin they can't sanction

>>60795473
really the issue is that mining makes the pc unusable. so if you only have your one pc with a couple thousand of hashrate it might not feel worth it when even websites start giving you the 90s dialup experience

randomx failed to create miner incentives. you cannot rely on the "voluntary goodwill" of nerds around the world for a consistently high hashrate.

miner incentives are right to be placed on financial greed. capitalism is good, in this example.

>>60795502
You can just set it to use only a specific amount of cores though.

>>60795505
the sooner people accept this the better. its the same with other privacy projects like tor. far more people use it than contribute nodes to the project and with no incentive to mine monero will have the same fate. so far its held up pretty well since people have played nice but if some random nerd in his moms basement can get a quarter of the hashrate you can imagine what a government backed entity could do. someone calculated it would be some millions to do it which would easily disappear in the us defense spending for example

>>60795498
>they don't accept it because of governments
Bitrefill is from Sweden and they didn't ban Monero, the vendor decided all on their own.

>>60795502
I installed Zen kernel (Linux kernel optimized for desktop responsiveness. A general recommendation from me even if you're not mining. Many distros have it or something similar.)
I set xmrig to lowest priority in configs.
I set xmrig systemd service to idle scheduling category.

The rest of the system is butter smooth. So it's totally possible. OS are being faggots.

>>60795516
that mica bullshit is eu wide though isn't it? serious businesses get very autistic over these regulation things

>>60795515
In other projects in which you could have possibly gains you often have less people participating in it because of the high on ramping costs or other issues. Basically the potential miners need to ask themselves 'Am I willing to donate my hardware or donate my hardware AND a lot of money at the slight chance to get money back'.

>>60795517
>I set xmrig to lowest priority in configs.
>I set xmrig systemd service to idle scheduling category.
what's your hashrate? you cannot prop the network security this way. you need *consistent*, *high*, *high uptime* hashrate.

If you aren't at least getting some Moneros in return (not talking about the dust amounts you get with p2pool), why would people run xmrig? Heck, even I am not motivated to run xmrig on my computers, because I know that I will be mauling my CPU for practically no gains.

>>60795522
>In other projects in which you could have possibly gains you often have less people participating in it because of the high on ramping costs or other issues.
So there has to be a sweet spot between the two extremes we are discussing. We need some FINANCIAL INCENTIVE for this shit to work. Why/how did we lose track of this fundamental reality of decentralized proof of work back then with randomx (can't believe hyc has said, "mining is not for profit" -- the name of the game is FINANCIAL. INCENTIVE. )

Unless you have some elaborate solar-hybrid powered setup where you get free or cheap energy and you are okay with heavy upfront cost, then no institution is gonna bother with XMR when they can mine other stuff as well.

>>60795527
>We need some FINANCIAL INCENTIVE for this shit to work.
Tor, Folding@Home, I2P. Do I need to go on? P2P networks/projects thrive from the *inherent* value of the results, not some financial promise that only the top 1% can achieve. I know this is hard to grasp for this board but the vast majority of people don't want to invest hundreds of thousands in hardware they'll burn through just in time for the next generation to exist just so they can make a little bit of money in an unstable currency. This resistance against subversion by whales is precisely what makes XMR sensible as a currency that actually gets used.

>>60795537
Right, but if XMR's price keep fluctuating while the price of goods keep increasing year after year, the enduser won't like it either. Monero needs to have a plan that it's current price will be stable if people want to use it as a currency.

>>60795537
Tor and i2p aren't same as a PoW cryptocurrency network. Also i2p has had sybil attacks in the past that crippled its route making and tor is also under constant threat of a small number of actors running majority of exit nodes.
>folding@home
Literally what? You wanna compare Monero to an obscure science project? Are we gonna be a global monetary network that threatens starus quo or are we gonna be a literal nothing nobody cares about?

>>60795537
i2p is possible because their system is made so that you have to contribute to even get access. would be hard to pull off with a coin

>>60795537
>I know this is hard to grasp for this board but the vast majority of people don't want to invest hundreds of thousands in hardware they'll burn through just in time for the next generation to exist just so they can make a little bit of money in an unstable currency.
This is a strawman of my point. I am not saying this, and you are attacking this nonsense point as if I put this forth.
>This resistance against subversion by whales
No such thing as "resistance against whales", so no idea what you are talking about.

>>60795505
>randomx failed to create miner incentives. you cannot rely on the "voluntary goodwill" of nerds around the world for a consistently high hashrate.

Standing armies tend to be smaller in times of peace and only scale up during hostilities. Likewise, we don't need everybody mining all the time, we just need everybody to be capable and willing to mine when the call to arms is made. This is the killer feature of RandomX, it makes countless millions of devices around the world potential Monero miners at a moment's notice.

And as seen over the past weeks, with sufficient motivation average users with no prior interest or experience can nonetheless be compelled to start mining at an acceptable loss. All it takes is the perception of an existential threat to the tech they hold dear.

So a defense strategy where for-profit miners are the smaller standing army mining all the time and altruistic miners are the larger army reserve that only mines during an active attack can apparently work.

Grow the userbase, simply grow the number of active users who cherish Monero the utility and you'll grow this army reserve.

It is so weird that a crypto currency monetary network has so much people adhering to anti-economical principles.

Making money is good. Getting profits are great. This is how you get people invested into the health and longevity of the system. You guys want to keep pontificating about principles and whatnot, but guess what, large swathes of people do not listen, nor understand nor care about your pet ideology.

>>60795559
>And as seen over the past weeks, with sufficient motivation average users with no prior interest or experience can nonetheless be compelled to start mining at an acceptable loss. All it takes is the perception of an existential threat to the tech they hold dear.
So far nothing indicated that average users are now mining.

>>60795565
>So far nothing indicated that average users are now mining

Look around at all the n00bs asking how to mine lately, from Reddit to Dread.

>>60795559
>And as seen over the past weeks
If the past weeks shown something, it is that Monero's hashpower is piss poor. It is enough for a literal who's dcam project to erase billions of dolars from Monero's market cap, shake confidence in its economical principles and technical design, and lead its community into chaos discussing batshit crazy ideas like increasing the tail emission or a proof of stake on top of proof of work.

>>60795564
>Making money is good. Getting profits are great. This is how you get people invested into the health and longevity of the system
Early Monero users understood this and even made a "citadel" meme. This used to be posted every thread for a year and promised you that you'll make a lot of money. They abandoned this image when XMR's price kept fluctuating.

>Fir profit miners
This doesn't mean a monopoly of company mining monero. This means people who put their compute resources (either existing or purchased) getting break even (energy expense per second equals monetary gain per second) and then some.

This is for profit mining. This is good. Thisnis okay.

Insane shit in this thread anons shaming profit.

>>60795571
>Look around at all the n00bs asking how to mine lately,
Tell me a number. How many dread anons? I know dread, I've been there, so don't act like you are an insider to a sekrit elite club.

A handful of anons posting on dread half assedly mining monero is not a long term solution to the current shitshow.

We need businesses being able to be built on top of XMR production (think home miner machines being produced and sold to people, to give them a way to onboard into purchasing crypto through their electricity bill). But the way the devs meddle with the protocol every now and then, you cannot build a reliable, long term healthy company around monero's protocol. And then you will always be at the mercy of and seeking of "anons coming to dread asking about wanting to mine monero to help the network"

>>60795523
It's my PC. Mines at about 7.5 KH/s.
>consistent
I run it 24/7.
>high
When I'm not doing anything else, It's very close to the max hashrate. When I'm using it it dips to 6.5 KH/s. For gaming I disable it.
>high uptime
No, individual miners don't need impeccable uptime.
>mauling my CPU
Do people believe using the CPU makes it go bad lol? I grabbed some cheap GPUs that way. Nobody was buying them because they were used for mining. Used them happily for years.

>>60795554
Actually not true. You can be an I2P node that does no transit. It's about sharing by default. Monero wallets should mine at a slow rate by default. You can disable it in settings, but the point is, the defaults should contribute. The default Monero wallet should:

If HDD:
->Use public nodes
Else If SSD space >750GB:
->Use full node
Else:
->Use pruned node

>But then the wallet will be heavy!
Sure it will. We're in the era or >100GB games and bloatmaxxed software anyway. The normies won't even notice. Their machines will simply contribute. Those who complain will research and find out you can turn it off if you want to. Those who want to help more will find out you can turn on full speed mining.

Also even turning light RandomX mode for shitty computers is worth it, because in this case it's like the botnet economics that anon was talking about: The cost is zero for the devs. So if they can get even one hash from a computer that did not mine before, that's an advantage. When you spread out the cost, nobody cares that they pay less than 10 cents extra on electricity.

>>60795578
They are going to increase transaction fees x16 so slow transactions will cost around 2 cents instead of less than a cent. I hope this happens as the first step.

>>60795590
>They are going to increase transaction fees x16 so slow transactions will cost around 2 cents i
How will this effect post-fcmp++ transactions? They will be 10x the size of the current transactions afaik, so does that mean fcnp++ transactions will cost 2 dollars to send?

>>60795540
Correct and that's barely the fault of the mining but mostly fabricated news (like the qubic case) or some governments speaking vague threats

>>60795549
>Tor and i2p aren't same as a PoW cryptocurrency network.
Correct but the principle still holds. There is no reason for people to differentiate between 'Network I need to donate for' and 'Network I need to donate for to use money'
>Also i2p has had sybil attacks in the past that crippled its route making
That's because of lower popularity - a direct result of less education. The 'solutions' for sybil attacks make it often less likely for anybody to participate, see lokinet
>tor is also under constant threat of a small number of actors running majority of exit nodes
That's because of their static setup which node can function how. This issue is completely resolved not by monetary incentives but making everyone a peer, see I2P
>You wanna compare Monero to an obscure science project?
No, I mean the project that had mainstream attention during the pandemic not because of economic incentives but because of the inherent value in it

>>60795554
That's how P2P systems work, fren

>>60795555
>This is a strawman of my point. I am not saying this, and you are attacking this nonsense point as if I put this forth.
That's how the current systems function.
>No such thing as "resistance against whales", so no idea what you are talking about.
ASIC resistance. John who has 100x of what I can afford doesn't have a significant advantage because the entry of barrier is so low we can both easily participate.

None of the issues by these concerned posters had economic solutions as its silver bullet but instead lack of education (still a problem with XMR but it reaches the people it's supposed to reach), lack of popularity (see previous point), archaic hierarchies (also not a given in randomx). None of the proposed problems in these P2P networks would be solved by 'economic incentives' but loads of issues would be introduced.

>>60795590
>Do people believe using the CPU makes it go bad lol?
Using them on high temps (+80 constantly) is bad, yes.

>>60795599
Also, this "central planning of transaction fees" is not a good look at all for monero. Why are we at the mercy of a committee's opinion about how much the tx fees should be? I swear to god the onlt person works on and understands how monero's tx fee modeling works is ArticMine, and we all simply obey whatever he proposes. This shit's embarrassing for a libertarian/ancap-wannabe decentralised crypto currency project.

>>60795613
Even Bitcoin has min relay fee, doesn't it? If Monero was actually popular to the point there is a fee market, then we would not need to play with it so much. Bitcoin's case on the other hand is basically playing it safe with a 1MB block so the fees got high when the price and txs went up but tough shit lol. Us setting higher fees would be something like that but still less extreme.

Also min relay fee isn't that interventionist compared to a hard fork. It's just nodes what tx they want and don't want relayed.

Despite so many people insisting on low fees because muh currency, it's better to have fees that better match a coin's need at it's low point and then if the coin even moons, high tx fees are a good problem to have at that point. Unlike Bitcoin, we can even change it.

>>60795629
>Even Bitcoin has min relay fee, doesn't it
It is 1sat/vbyte and it was set back more than a decade ago, and haven't been a subject of "monetary engineering" subject since then.

What Monero is doing is this constant committee opinionating about what the optimal fee should be. This is not much different then soviets deciding on the price of a bread. This is impossible to calculate and should be left to the free market to do the calculation instead.

>>60795636
but bitcoins fee is whatever you set it to? thats just a has to be more than zero but you'll probably wait forever if you don't set the fee at least as high as the market demands

>>60795655
This market mechanism is better than ArticMine conjuring up some math equations on his own.

I don't like bitcoins 1MB limit. Monero's dynamic block size plus free market fees should work.


Stop meddling with the economic properties of the protocol, that's all.

>>60795629
The problem I feel with Monero is, they design the thing for when it's going to get super popular, which is dumb because it's a hard fork friendly coin. They should design it so it's more secure as a small coin that it is right now. If it moons, then it's a "good problem to have" which unlike Bitcoin, can even be solved later.

Like, CPU mining with our current rewards would have worked if the coin mooned, but at its usual low levels you can easily calculate the margin is uncomfortably low against anyone who can buy some data centers. NSA already has gigantic ones that are for cyber warfare. GPU doesn't save us here either. ASIC will have to be custom ones, which make them a target.

This brings me to PoS. Why should we allow our small yet security critical coin be so easily threatened by external forces that can be easily acquired by hostile forces, when in the end it has to be those who actually hold Monero who must decide its fate?

>>60795636
Yeah they didn't have to touch it since the coin went up. Crazy observation. A Bitcoin today at Monero's mcap would be more fucked than Monero.

Also Soviets buying bread: LOL. What makes the security budget different between coins is actually not a free market, it depends on the parameters set for the free market. Bitcoin's 1MB block is such a parameter. Emission curve is such a parameter. Free market does not exist in a vacuum.

>>60795655
If Monero was popular, you would also wait forever for slow transactions, there is a fee market, it's just in slots. The slots may even be done away with. IDK how much they help with anonymity. None of this helps increase the security budget.

>>60795665
But dynamic block size is equations.

The bottom line is the min relay fee needs to be raised. It's just the free market of nodes saying: No we're not going to provide service for that low because it affects our bottom line (the security of the network). Above our bottom line, you can have your free market of fees.

>>60795678
>But dynamic block size is equations
Yes, but here we are again debating yet one more "what is the optimal base fee"

>>60795678
but last time i heard anon say that monero does not have the flaw of slowing transactions

>>60795678
>Bitcoin's 1MB block is such a parameter. Emission curve is such a parameter. Free market does not exist in a vacuum.
Yes and in bitcoin's case the parameters were basically set in stone 13 years ago or something like that.

Every year Monero community discusses the transaction fees that the users shoyld pay. That is shitshow.

>>60795678
>Also Soviets buying bread: LOL.
The fuck is your point with this?

>Free market does not exist in a vacuum.
Of course it doesn't you eisntein. The point is this: you cannot meddle with the monetary, economic parameters of the monero protocol every now and then because, among other things, it is a centralization factor and leaves everyone who are not at the committee decisions table at a dosadvantage. Why should your whims affect my business that I am trying to build on top of Monero? Until monero is equal to every one, it is not a monetary network but a fancy cryptography network.

>>60793907
Someone answer this guy. I thought this shit was basically over. Why are we plummeting still?

reporting in

even though it's monerover and millions must mine

DEATH TO ALL WHO MAKE MONERO OUT TO BE SOME COMMUNIST COIN THATS SUPPOSED TO FUNCTION WITHOUT PROFIT MOTIVE

>>60795678
This is exactly right. Use moneros hard fork friendly culture to its advantage. It’s a MASSIVE advantage against bitcoin. Do what is needed to bootstrap the network - using god forbid financial incentives - and IF it ever becomes a globally used currency and billions care about it you can eventually have your miner profit $0 communism at that point.

>>60795575
They probably abandoned it because OP probably relentlessly made fun of them with gay reaction images and made everyone think Monero is full of people who shun the idea of profit.

>>60796035
>Death to all who make XMR to be what it is

>>60795807
Because even if he exaggerated his numbers it showed how easily a nation state could btfo xmr if they wanted to and there hasn't been any move to address the issue.

Let's get together bunch of whales that care about Monero. Everyone who cares buys up as much as possible, we push PoS. Then we can finally have our anonymous internet money locked in with no bullshit.
>muh exchanges
This is the only threat. We need to have more than exchanges. Whales need to join in.

PoW security is just a delusion unless you already made it big and cornered a specific ASIC algo. Notice how PoW ETH had insane fees, precisely for having as much security budget as possible. They also had to corner being the most profitable GPU coin. Everything else is just weak PoW nobody bothered with yet.

Game plan:
>Hike fees.
>Instigate CEX delistings. (Use 51% FUD to our advantage)
>Buy up all XMR. (Use 51% FUD to our advantage)
>Go PoS.
>Drop back fees.

>>60796163
This was not even unknown. Anons have done the napkin math and raised the same concern. Nice to see a live demo in production though. I hope it wakes up retards.

Reminder that anyone pushing PoS is a subversive who understands nothing about what makes this project valuable.

>>60796234
>valuable

>>60796256
Right but people actually use it. Rather than caring how much it goes up against USD.

PoS guarantees nobody will ever use this shit again

Moonfags could moon the coin if they just open a business and sell their services in XMR. But instead they want to turn it into another fake currency like the rest of crypto already is. You have to wonder why they just don’t go buy Zcash or some other subverted non functioning privacy coin. Or just go buy ETH and use tornado cash lol

>>60796234
No bro you need PoS so I can get my 30x gains

There's no point to a fee market in Monero. There's no competition for block space by design, so there's no pressure to pay a higher fee as long as miners are willing to add them. If miners feel like the fees aren't high enough then they should mine empty blocks til they are, just like in every other PoW coin. If people don't like having their txs ignored, then they should be allowed to rebroadcast their tx with as high of a fee as they feel like; if there's a privacy concern that some retard will always pay 0.008008135 and deanonymize themselves, then wallets can make be designed to have fixed increments.
I understand the need to make the fees higher, but it shouldn't be the job of the Monero project to decide what that is.

>>60796263
>people actually use it
No they don't. It's a tiny minority. If number went up, more people would.
>Rather than caring how much it goes up against USD.
Yeah I totally enjoy losing money.
>PoS guarantees nobody will ever use this shit again
No it doesn't.

>>60796271
>tornado cash
I'm considering it, It's worse than Monero. It's a limited part of Ethereum. Ethereum itself is a smartcucked snitchcoin where nobody cares about anonymity. Monero is better. I want dumb money not smart money. PoS without smartcuckery will simplify Monero.

>>60796294
Good idea actually. How do I make my p2pool ignore slow transactions? I will need to set up my own pool or solo mine, won't I?
>rebroadcast their tx
People use not being able to do that and a shitty 0-conf stand-in. With finality layer or PoS, there won't be a need for it and we can rebroadcast tx.

bake a cake

This shit is cooked. Even if the 51% is all bullshit, it's causing enough FUD to imply that someone who cooks up the right incentives can take over the chain.

>>60796544
are you sure it really is fud? some random jeet being able to get a quarter if the hashrate is a pretty big deal because it means that someone with serious resources can do the rest too. someone counted the numbers and its really not that much for a state actor since we are talking about well under a trillion

>>60795582
>A handful of anons posting on dread half assedly mining monero is not a long term solution to the current shitshow.

Mining has ramped up enough to fend off the attack, which is what matters the most right now. But like I said, increase the size of the active user base (people with a stake in Monero's operability) and you've increased the size of this army reserve.

Right now, the issue is that the active user base is still small. But in a world where the global counter-economy has gone viral and the number of active XMR users is counted in the millions, we should have ourselves a very healthy army reserve.

>>60796574
Right, that's what I'm saying. I don't buy that this attack is successful, but it shows a blueprint for how a deep-pocketed actor can take over.

>>60796294
>There's no competition for block space by design
Block space is limited with some dynamic ballooning mechanism. Until the blocks grow there can be times where transactions race withbeach other to be included in blocks. This occurs in high transaction count events in txpool.

>>60796588
That’s why everyone NOT pushing hybrid or PoS or some other major change is actually subverting Monero.

It has been completely conclusively demonstrated that Monero as it stands today is untenable. It cannot survive any major attack from a well financed adversary.

So I want anyone shitting on PoS, hybrid, etc to answer me what THEIR plan is. How will Monero survive in your scenario? Doing nothing is absolutely off the table as of now.

>>60796294
>I understand the need to make the fees higher, but it shouldn't be the job of the Monero project to decide what that is.
I agree with this

>>60796575
>Mining has ramped up enough to fend off the attack, which is what matters the most right now.
>right now
You cannot depend on this ragtag bunch. You need consistenly high enough hashrate so that such problems don't arise in the first place.

>>60796609
Agree. I have a sizable chunk, and I'm not selling, but I've stopped buying for now. Still mining a bit when not using my computer. Unless there's a systemic change made I'm out.

>>60796609
PoS is literally giving a state actor an effortless way of taking over the network because it's only limited by the amount of money you have. But I agree in principle that the algorithm needs to change drastically.

>>60796609
perhaps we need something new. all of those rely on being too expensive to take over so basically a flavor of security through obscurity

>>60796630
>take over network
>value drops to zero immediately
no I don't think they would do that unless they wanted to spend a bunch of money to destroy a chain.

>>60796661
>unless they wanted to spend a bunch of money to destroy a chain.
that's exactly what they want to do
qubic is backed by glowies

>>60796575
>I am mining at 11 KH/s I am still supporting the network even if it’s a little bit
That’s literally what you get if you mine with the highest end CPU on the market. That’s how it should be. A bunch of people with regular hardware mining casually and that alone should be enough stop any coordinated attack even from a nation state.

If it’s possible for a government or entity to just throw a few millions or even billions into doing anything that interrupts this process, our consensus mechanism has flaws and needs to be adjusted. And NO I don’t mean it in the sense that we need to switch to ASIC mining or PoS or increase fees. I mean a 4th way!

>>60796661
Why would a state actor care about the value? Dropping it to zero is exactly the goal.

had 530 xmr, lost 40k value over 4 days, grim.

These qubick nobodies really made the value of my favorite crypto go down???
WTF??????

>W..we totally have 51% of the hashrate guys
lol

>>60796626
>>60796824
Get an even more sizable chunk then stake it and we shall never ever deal with this bullshit ever again. Convince your whale frens.

You monero-lover whale niggers need to take over the supply and push PoS before CEX can get enough stake. If you succeed, you're safe for good. No more bullshit. HODL that shit and never ever fucking sell unless it's to develop Monero or use Monero to pump it more.

>>60796726
At least with PoS they have to *increase* the price massively to take over. They literally have to pump our bags.

You have Monero -> You have stake in Monero. Why should external shit like CPU be used to push us around? NSA has entire giga scale datacenters earmarked for glownigger h4x0r shit.

>>60796856
That site is self reported rates. Look here:
https://moneroconsensus.info/

>>60796856
Nice. Another failed attempt. But they’ll be back soon with even more compute. I don’t foresee them giving up until they 51% attack the network.

>Totally fine bro. Keep baking!
Speaking of baking. Soon I am going to be baked too because I turned my room into an oven for Monero-chan.

>>60796620
>You cannot depend on this ragtag bunch.

Apparently we can.


>>60796717
>That’s how it should be. A bunch of people with regular hardware mining casually and that alone should be enough stop any coordinated attack even from a nation state.

Yeah, its just a numbers game. Millions of active users each individually contributing a negligible amount adds up.

Growing to millions of active users is the hard part lol. Getting the masses hooked on grey market bargains and P2P donations is key.


>>60796866
>I don’t foresee them giving up until they 51% attack the network.

Pubic halving happens this next Wednesday. A scam like that can't last long.

>>60796824
>had 530 xmr, lost 40k value over 4 days, grim.

Yeah, its totally never going back up.

>>60796887
>Apparently we can.
Apparently we cannot. There is no guarantee that these anaons will be there the enxt time against an even bigger attack.

Monero mining has to be profitable enough so that we don't beg around for miners, nor buy mining hashpower on markets and act as if we.added independent hashpower to the network.

>>60796966
>Apparently we cannot. There is no guarantee that these anaons will be there the enxt time against an even bigger attack.

Active users with a stake in Monero's health have an incentive to mine. Which is exactly what we're seeing.

>>60796984
>Active users with a stake in Monero's health have an incentive to mine. Which is exactly what we're seeing.
Why these users weren't around *before* the qubic event? Do we always need a crisis situation to incentivise the miners? I thought this was the job of economic incentives?

Your active users mining and saving Monero is a dream. If it was that way, you wouldn't have to build Monero on top of Proof of Work.

Proof of Work definitionally aligns woth economic greed and profit incentives.

>>60796984
>Active users with a stake in Monero's health have an incentive to mine.
Like, why does Monero have a block reward then? Why even have transaction fees? If the active users are incentivized no matter the profitability, why burden users with tx fees and unnecessary dilution of the coin supply.

Of course this is idiotic. Proof of Work relies on profitability. Monero has to solve this problem if it wants to be a respected PoW chain and not a chain that begs around for hashrate on twitter everytime an attack occurs.

>>60796887
Devniggers need to make GUI wallet mine by default. You need the clueless on your side lest they get taken to another.

>>60797047
>Devniggers need to make GUI wallet mine by default.
I like this idea. Even with minimal CPU allocation to the default mining, it might prop up the hashrate.

>>60797047
>>60797106
Maybe we can make mining on GUI wallet be the default setting. And let users opt-out if they want

However, the proper solution is Monero reaching some level of profitabilityo to incentivize constant monero miners on its network.

>>60797047
Most realistic and immediately implementable solution. Make it a choice during wallet setup that defaults to on, have a slider that throttles cpu allowance and have it set to something not scary by default like 30%, have a little widget where you can enter your $/kwh cost and it tells you how much money you make every day if you leave the option on. Even making it transparent and turn-off-able like that probably at lest half of users would shrug and leave it on.

>>60797039
This. We can destroy the block reward right now and become even RARER than bitcoin forever!!!!

>>60796984
I just don’t even view this as a serious response. I don’t believe that YOU believe an uncompensated army of individual CPU miners is somehow going to take down a state apparatus that probably has computing technologies that aren’t even known to the public. This isn’t David vs Goliath here. This is the real world. The level of coordination required to even defeat a single autist is so high you’re only getting assistance from the most ardent supporters of XMR and even THAT is probably insufficient for at least temporary 51% attacks soon.

So how about this crazy idea. Since we need extremely dependable coordination among thousands of people around the world……how about we use the most tried and true method of coordination imaginable. The method of coordination that makes the world go round. MONEY.

>>60797008
>Why these users weren't around *before* the qubic event?

They were always around, they just had no compelling reason to mine. Now they do.


>Do we always need a crisis situation to incentivise the miners? I thought this was the job of economic incentives?

All that matters is that 51% attack attempts can be rebuffed with enough hashing power when required.

Whether those hashes are being provided by for-profit miners or pro-bono miners is irrelevant.


What this crisis has shown us is that total n00bs ARE in fact willing to fire up their devices when the network needs defending. Which makes perfect sense when you consider how important XMR can be for everyday people:

An attack on XMR is also an attack on a dope fiend's access to gear, also an attack on a trannie's access to HRT, also an attack on an agorist's livelihood, also an attack on a normie's access to grey market bargains, also an attack on a content creator's support system, etc. So of course all those people aren't just going to sit around and watch while Monero-chan gets raped to death.

Incentives don't need to be purely financial, the incentive to safeguard a utility you've come to depend on can be just as compelling.


>>60797187
> an uncompensated army of individual CPU miners is somehow going to take down a state apparatus

There's way more of us than there is of them.

>Since we need extremely dependable coordination among thousands of people around the world

We already have that. It's called "social media"

>>60796925
at least no one is bagholding the ath

>Just switch to an algo that works with ASICs
you get 51%'d anyway (ETC)
>Just increase the mining rewards!
the rewards get inflated away
>Just switch to PoS!
nobody will use monero
>Just force P2P / solo mining like Wownero!
nobody will mine monero

The "obvious" solution you spent five minutes thinking up won't actually work which is why the devs haven't already implemented it.

>>60797256
>What this crisis has shown us is that total n00bs ARE in fact willing to fire up their devices when the network needs defending.
This is you coping with reality.

>>60797106
Even mining with the much slower light mode which uses 246MB RAM instead of 2GB is good. Any hash is good there. Funnily, that's because of the same zero-cost benefit the botnets have.

We live in the age of >100GB videogames and 2GB RAM web apps. 100GB pruned miner using 2GB RAM to mine is fine. Use half the cores. Set lowest CPU priority.
>It's a peer to peer application so that's why it's using resources, it's actually part of the network. That's so cool!
Is all the explanation you need to the normies. Don't give them choice paralysis. Just do it and say that's how it works. Most normies won't notice. Those who do will say oh well that's the requirements. Those who get annoyed will find out you can just disable it in the settings.

Or you know they can't just turn off the wallet and turn it on when they want to contribute. Many are asking to contribute. Make it as simple as launching or closing the wallet.

>>60797293
>Oh no, Monero is PoS but otherwise works fine as anonymous money. I won't use it!
Shit I won't ever say.

>>60797300
>This is you coping with reality.

Think what you like. Mining ramped up, 51% attack thwarted. All that matters.

>>60797326
Maybe it thwarted THIS attack but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near sufficient to thwart a much more coordinated and well funded attack. Something needs to change.

>>60797008
You are by definition correct because otherwise trailing emissions wouldn’t exist. The implementation of trailing emissions is literally people forfeiting the belief that the chain could be protected on fees alone.

With that being said, OP is correct at the same time. Humans are a social species first and foremost. If rumor is around that people are trying to attack the network, don’t be surprised when thousands of people start mining just to defend the chain.

Not to mention moonfags are also always bitching about the price, seemingly for no other reason than the fact that they have a lot saved in Monero. If that’s the case, don’t you want to protect that wealth in the case of a crisis? Is that not reason alone??

My biggest concern which no one can give an answer to is how can we prevent the government with unlimited access to CPUs and money from outmining average people the day they decide enough is enough with this tax evasion coin. And in that way, I agree more with the doubters. Goodwill isn’t really enough. We need something BAKED into the chain that ensures a gov with unlimited funds could not actually 51% us.

>>60797339
>Something needs to change.

Yeah, we need to pump up these rookie number and grow the active user base, give evermore people a real stake in Monero's health.

Maybe some other temporary fix in the interim but in the long-run this is going to require Monero becoming a cherished part of everyday people's lives and routines.

>>60797352
>My biggest concern which no one can give an answer to is how can we prevent the government with unlimited access to CPUs and money from outmining average people the day they decide enough is enough with this tax evasion coin. And in that way, I agree more with the doubters. Goodwill isn’t really enough. We need something BAKED into the chain that ensures a gov with unlimited funds could not actually 51% us.
You switch to PoS and make sure monero extremists locked up enough stake to prevent CEX from taking over. If you succeed, that's it, you're good for ever as long as you keep staking basically. While While Monero is in discount, you need to grab the coins for this eventuality.

Exchanges -> Keep delisting Monero
FUD -> Keep discounting Monero
Extremists -> Keep stacking Monero
PoS come -> Extremists lock the door of Monero security for good

>>60797417
people with a lot of money are generally aggressive profit seekers. they don't care as much about monero than about line going up

>>60797352
By mining ourselves. If every XMR users mined you'd easily be so performant that no government would attempt to 51%. That's why guerilla warfare is so potent.

>>60797417
Nigger why is it so hard for you to understand THE US DOLLAR IS FAKE THEY WILL LITERALLY BUY UP THE MAJORITY SUPPLY AND SHUT THE PROJECT DOWN THEN ARREST EVERYONE WHO GOT RICH ON IT. THERE IS NO SCENARIO WHERE THE GOVERNMENT DOESNT USE THEIR FUNNY MONEY TO JUST OUTRIGHT PURCHASE THE PROJECT AND SHUT IT DOWN.

>people won’t sell
YES THEY WILL IF RANDOM CRIMINALS WHO OWNED THIS COIN AT A LOW PRICE ARE BEING PROMISED THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS ZIP CODES AND MANSIONS IN THE US IN EXCHANGE FOR THEIR XMR THEY WILL DO IT.

You are a covert faggot fucking retard operative moonfag who wants nothing other than to get rich and ruin XMR.

Proof of work was INVENTED to get AWAY FROM PROOF OF STAKE. YOUR SHITTY CONSENSUS MECHANISM WAS AROUND BEFORE AND IT DOESNT WORK TO DECENTRALIZE A PROJECT.

I don’t even know why I even waste my breath. You would trade this projects integrity for a mansion in Florida for a second. Go fuck yourself.

The amount of money someone has should not increase their vote on the security of the chain. If that becomes the case, the government will obviously become the largest stakeholder. In case you haven’t noticed, the richest group in the world is who we are trying to get away from!

Proof of Stake shills are a poison to these threads I swear

>>60797464
what’s the difference between spending billions to buy up a pos coin and spending billions to buy/rent enough computers to take over a pow coin?

The Qubic Minority Report


https://x.com/DesheShai/status/1956400476888412257

>>60797464
>You would trade this projects integrity for a mansion in Florida for a second. Go fuck yourself.
>Proof of Stake shills are a poison to these threads I swear

Stark reminder that moonfags give zero fucks about Monero and are just here for NGU.

>>60797495
You can more easily fight back against them trying to take over mining while also having even more benefits. If the govt asks you nicely whether you want to sell your coins at 10 times market rate and hints are outlawing it soon anyway not taking that deal would be extremely stupid.

>>60797495
The difference is we can build a solution around the 51% attack. Proof of stake guarantees they just buy the project and shut it down.

And this guy wants it because he wants his nice zip code when he can just make a business and get there honestly if he wants USD so fucking bad.

What do you guys think of No KYC cards such as Goblin Card, Solcard, etc.?
There are crypto cards that ask for KYC, but that's a mess because every time you buy something with "crypto", in reality you're selling the crypto for fiat and buying with fiat, and every sale is a taxable event with capital gains tax directly tied to you from the KYC.
However, crypto cards without KYC could be used to evade taxes. But are they actually private/useful or is it a honeypot/scam?

>>60796865
>You have Monero -> You have stake in Monero. Why should external shit like CPU be used to push us around? NSA has entire giga scale datacenters earmarked for glownigger h4x0r shit.
That external shit can't be made out of thin air, unlike the dollar.

>>60797464
Nigger good fucking luck even buying enough monero let alone affording it. These niggers for years worked to delist Monero and choke its liquidity. Where are they going buy all that Monero?
>But they will do all those crazy things.
No decentralized consensus algorithm can secure against an infinitely rich attacker. They are ALREADY doing things much more cheaply against current Monero. PoS will take far more money to break.

If they attack PoSnero, they will have to pump the coin, make it way more popular. Their whole strategy has been to keep Monero obscure so people don't even know such a thing exists.

In PoSnero, if you have the coin, that fact that you have the coin helps secure it and you get rewarded for it.
In PoWnero, you have to lose money competing with external forces that have literal data centers earmarked for cyberattacks. On top of that some guy can bribe people with CPU with his shitcoin so they mine against Monero.

>>60797511
We moonchads are going to do something baketards can't: We are going to save fucking Monero!

>>60797521
Gov can ask nicely to pay 10x reward to miners too. Oh wait, it's already happening. If this was PoS and some extremist they don't even know where he is decided to keep staking, it's tough shit.

>>60797537
It exist so much, if you have gov tier money, you can easily buy enough CPU power to rape Monero. With PoS, if enough people are not selling, it's over for them.

I think we need to organize a fundraiser to fight these kinds of attacks. We could have a pool of cloud computers, ready to pay the fee to use them and temporarily boost the network’s hashrate while it’s under attack. Something between 1–2 GH/s would be expensive, but it could also find blocks and help pay for itself, making the attack unsuccessful. I think it would be a good deterrent, even more if the attackers don't know how much hash power the community could buy at any given time.

>>60797464
>prints funny monopoly money
>inflation
>at least can own monero network
>monero users create a fork and move there leaving the govt alone with its funny internet money
lol what now?

>>60797495
>what’s the difference between spending billions to buy up a pos coin and spending billions to buy/rent enough computers to take over a pow coin?

Logistics.

>The Monero network currently has a hashrate of approximately 5-6 GH/s. To perform a 51% attack, a state actor would need to control more than half of the network's hashrate. This means they would need to acquire ~ 3 GH/s of computing power.

>For a state-sponsored attack, the scale would be immense. A single high-end CPU like the AMD Threadripper 3990X can produce around 54 kilohashes per second (kH/s). To reach the required 3 GH/s (or 3,000,000 kH/s) for a 51% attack, an attacker would need over 55,500 of these CPUs. With each CPU costing approximately $4,000, the total hardware cost would be well over $222 million. This is a conservative estimate and doesn't account for the cost of motherboards, RAM, power supplies, cooling systems, and physical infrastructure.

>The most significant and recurring cost of a 51% attack is electricity. A single AMD Threadripper 3990X consumes about 280 watts. To power the required 55,500 CPUs, the total power consumption would be over 15.5 megawatts. This is a significant amount of power, comparable to a small city.

>Assuming a conservative average industrial electricity rate of $0.10 per kilowatt-hour (kWh), the hourly electricity cost would be over $1,550. For a sustained attack of even a single day, the electricity cost would be approximately $37,200. For a week-long attack, this would be over $260,000, and for a month, it would be over $1 million.

>The total logistical costs for a state-sponsored 51% attack on Monero would therefore be in the range of hundreds of millions of dollars in initial hardware expenditure, with millions more in monthly electricity costs for a sustained effort.

And that's just @ the current hashrate. With a much larger active user base (millions) mining when called upon, these costs would go up by countless orders of magnitude.

>>60795259
if monero PoS consensus was compromised from a single exchange hack, yes they would fork because otherwise it would be over. Community-led forks are the final weapon against the cyrptonigger.

>>60797549
>It exist so much, if you have gov tier money, you can easily buy enough CPU power to rape Monero.
That's the thing: with the right algorithm it is very difficult to do. With ASICs, for example, you would need to source them from few companies that make them. The production is not that elastic to get you enough compute power quickly and cheaply. Not saying that ASICs is the only solution though.
>With PoS, if enough people are not selling, it's over for them
Kek. Are you a communist by the way?

>>60797530
Why does nobody reply to me?
How do you guys spend your crypto (monero in particular)?
Do you use trade and p2p only?

>>60797549
>if you have gov tier money, you can easily buy enough CPU power to rape Monero.
Why are you so fucking dumb, so fucking disabled, that you don’t realize that’s what we’ve been trying to hash out solutions over the last few days. Ways to stay using CPU mining that don’t allow large farms or governments to take over.

And instead of good solutions proposed we have fucking retards shilling the same three NON solutions PoS and ASIC mining and raising fees. How about a new solution?

>>60797576
>How do you guys spend your crypto (monero in particular)?
>Do you use trade and p2p only?

>>60790691

>>60797530
I haven't used it but I remember CoinCards.

>>60797586
Thanks.
>>60797590
I think CoinCards requires KYC.

>>60797527
>The difference is we can build a solution around the 51% attack
What solution is that? Still waiting to hear

>>60797549
>Gov can ask nicely to pay 10x reward to miners too.
And that's why we mine not for economic incentives. So now we need to decide between being moonfags or having a usable currency. I know what's more important to me.
>>60797549
>If this was PoS and some extremist they don't even know where he is decided to keep staking, it's tough shit.
Too bad I already told you that PoS makes compromising the most important people more corruptible. If you assume the best case for PoS we can assume the best case for the current system, in which the status quo for XMR still wins out.

>>60797585
>that’s what we’ve been trying to hash out solutions over the last few days. Ways to stay using CPU mining that don’t allow large farms or governments to take over.
YOU HAVENT PROPOSED ANY SOLUTIONS FAGGOT

>>60797598
Look at xmrbazaar if anyone sells.

Why don’t you PoS fags fork the chain at the current block and see which chain wins out? Give it a cunning name and all. You faggots will have a chain no one uses!

Actually, proof of humanity would be a solution. It is tricky though for a privacy-first project. Maybe some open-source client-only face scanning that generates an access token that can be verified by the rest of the network without disclosing any identity info? Sort of like a hash that can only be generated by a real person. I'm sure there are some whitepapers on how to achieve that out there.

>>60797603
>>60797611
No shit nigger but neither has anyone else. It’s the same 3 derail topics that compromise the integrity of what makes Monero a currency that could replace the U.S. dollar.

Instead OP and others have to keep explaining why PoS, ASIC mining, & raising fees are NOT what we are talking about when we say we need a solution to the current 51% attack! Keep things the way they are while making a minor modification that can prevent large farms from doing this shit

>>60797633
>Keep things the way they are while making a minor modification that can prevent large farms from doing this shit
Until you actually propose something, you have nothing. It's reasonable to look into PoS and other major adjustments because the PoW proponents haven't actually given a viable way to continue on the current path.

A single autist was on the brink of destroying the network. That is an urgent crisis. Do you have ANYTHING to offer to solve it? Or are you just going to bitch about PoS?

i hate the antimonero

>>60797564
that’s far less than what it would cost to buy up enough xmr to take over a pos version at the current market cap.

>>60797650
>that’s far less than what it would cost to buy up enough xmr to take over a pos version at the current market cap.

Cost is one thing, logistics are another.

>>60797650
I agree and that also makes it a problem. But you guys fail to realize why PoS literally makes this unusable as a currency which people have explained thread after thread and it’s in one ear out the other.

We need a way to prevent that too. The gov just building XYZ number of mining PCs and destroying the network. But at least OP doesn’t want to destroy what makes this thing used. Which is the fact that it’s an ASIC resistant PoW coin with trailing emissions.

lol you knew this fuckhead was going to chime in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sPC84YDqVE

>>60794499
>There’s no bailouts
Chancellor on the Brink of Second Bailout for Banks

Taking down PoWnero:
At NSA:
>We found where those North Korean hackers are getting their money from.
>Can we take them down?
>Oh yeah it's some crypto coin where volunteers donate their CPU.
>Oh good thing we have this gigantic datacenter.
>Sure, just let me okay it with the boss and we can begin project RAPEMONEROCHAN.

Taking down PoSnero:
At NSA:
>We found where those North Korean hackers are getting their money from.
>Can we take them down?
>Uhh, unfortunately we have to buy billions in that cryptocurrency.
>That's more than than the agency's budget!
>Wouldn't this also increase the value of their XMR?
>Yeah. We would essentially be giving money to North Korea.
>Damn.
>Can't we make the Fed print money for us to buy it? So we quickly buy it.
>Well, not quickly. There is not enough liquidity on the market, but still...
>I will see if I can arrange a meeting to arrange a meeting with the admin so he can meet to see if he can meet the treasury department so we can see if we can see such a thing can even happen. A congressional sub-comitee or two would have to consulted too probably.
>You know what, let's try some other way than this Monero coin.

>>60797300
I’m a total noob, this general explained how to get into Monero like I was a tard.

Now I’m out here white-knighting for Monero Chan in her time of need. My computer stays on with most CPU threads devoted to mining.

I know my contribution is small but it’s the most I can do to preserve my bag, piss in the eye of the government and that Qubic cocksucking faggot.

In the future M’lady Monero Chan will smile upon me and grant me great fortune. Even now in the midst of battle I have a 1/5000 chance that she may reward me with a crumb of that sweet coin.

After the Monero moon happens, people will remember my “rags to bitches” story about how I and many other everyday people without dedicated mining rigs secured the blockchain and carried XMR through these times into profitability and ubiquity.

No one will remember your defeatist faggot ass.

The computer stays on until the market price improves.

>>60797618
>Why don’t you PoS fags fork the chain at the current block and see which chain wins out? Give it a cunning name and all. You faggots will have a chain no one uses!
how about we call the PoS chain "Monero" and the old PoW chain "Monero classic"? Surely the power of PoW would be enough to keep classic as the "real" one!

>>60797768
Unfortunately for you (and for those hoping for the actual incentives to mine), people making decisions are leaning commie, so you won't get a buterium-like situation.

>>60796609
>So I want anyone shitting on PoS, hybrid, etc to answer me what THEIR plan is. How will Monero survive in your scenario? Doing nothing is absolutely off the table as of now.
How about instead of a PoS later, We make the 'winner' of any chain split the one who mined the highest amount of fees in their block(s). If a wins, b's transactions go back to the mempool and is orphaned. If a=b then we can fallback to whomever has more hash power behind their block(s).
The idea here is to force a selfish miner to both submit more blocks AND collect more fees than the other chain to be considered the 'true' chain. The attacker would either have to collect fees or pay those fees out of pocket on their last block
>t. Not an expert on block chains so I have no idea if this makes sense, is a good idea, or is even possible. Pls no bully

>>60797722
LOOOOOL NO WAY HE MADE A VID ON IT

That is one of the most insufferable retards on the planet. Literally can’t even make up the level of cope he has on Monero being better than his shitcoin

>>60797760
Look the point isn't getting you or other bunch of nerd to mining monero. You cannot scals up the hashrate to thwart the future attacks this way. You might mine a while, but without a financial incentive (that is, credible belief that XMR you mine today will be a lot more in the near future, and also the amount of XMr you are producing is more than some dust amount) many normal people will stop mining XMR.

You simply cannot escape the necessity of financial incentivization with Proof of Work systems. You guys are really trying to psyop ypurselves into believing some fairy tale here.

>>60797352
>The implementation of trailing emissions is literally people forfeiting the belief that the chain could be protected on fees alone.
This point deserves repeating.

We introduced tail emission because we believed that this FINANCIAL INCENTIVE would motivate the future miners.

Not nerds. Not temporary rented hashrate from some online platform. But real, dedicated, contant, miners.

Really we should let go of tail emission. Monerobros who are motivated enough will do the work for transaction fees alone /s

In fact, Monero bros
>tfw they do it for free

>>60797816
>>60797822
That's too generous. I suggest they pay for the honor to protect the last refuge of digital financial privacy in this world.

>>60797848
What an honor. I am so propped up and ready to supply 100 H/s !!

>>60797822
>In fact, Monero bros
>>tfw they do it for free

Unironically true considering mining XMR hasn't been profitable for years yet miners have persisted nonetheless. Turns out people are quite willing to do donate time, money or energy for causes they believe in. Or for tech they've come to depend on.

We talk shit about bitcoin but I think we as Monero community had our own "small blocker" brain fart moment.

Just like small blocker movement was againt monetary incenvization mechanisms in bitcoin (long term security cannot depend on fluctuating tx fees on 1MB blocks), in Monero, we had Howard Chu&his camp feeding us delusion with, "miners need not be profitable."

What a pity. We could've had it all with XMR...

>>60797873
>Turns out people are quite willing to do donate time, money or energy for causes they believe in.
And turns out some rando autist with a marketing scheme can erase billions of dollars from Monero's market cap and lead its community into disarray, embarassing themselves on twitter begging "pls run miners" meanwhile nobody answering "why should ppl mine if they lose money on mining?"

Monero is not ready to take on the status quo. The next attack from a bit more financially resourced adversary can drivr this network into the ground, meanwhile Monero losing its purchasing power and staying where it was year after year.

>pls run mining guise
OK, and I am guessing you will be paying for my electricity bill? Because all I am doing is losing money on this endeavour; and no money-losing endeavour can go on indefinitely. Resources are finite, and I will have to shut down the machine some time in the (near?) future.

But if you pay my electricity bill, Mr Anon, yeah, I will run it, why not. Swell. Be my guest.

>>60797928
Again, the point is mot whether I am not enough ideologically motivated. This is a question of hard constraints: I don't have infinite resources. The amount I consume, the amount I have to generate, else I just consume my resources completely and finish myself off.

Again, this is not a question of ideology. It is a question of simple accounting. Numbers really don't care whether you have ballsy, brave, cool odeas about your belief systems.

>>60797795
Im ride or die my high time preference friend, how long did it take for BTC to become valuable? Im sure there were hurdles along the way too.

Once people realize that XMR is the one true coin to rule them all, the Monero Moon will be inevitable. We just got to make it through the bologna and ramen years.

Maybe the devs will make refinements that will make attacks impossible, maybe BTC will crash and people will flock to XMR to preserve their bags, maybe there will be a big development on the app side to buy and sell XMR easier so it can be normie friendly and a better vehicle of commerce than it already is.

There’s lots of people working towards these ends right now. It’s inevitable that they succeed.

Now is the time to slurp, might be your last chance. Because once this nothing burger 51% attack fud blows over it’s going back up, leaving you behind.


It’s not market forces suppressing the value of XMR like is the case for most shit coins.

It’s artificial non market forces, government bans on exchanges, twink hackers probably supported by the government, trying to snuff out XMR in the cradle.

They know XMR is the real deal and they’re scared.

I’m all in.

>>60796035
I used to hold about 100 XMR, was actively involved, but unironically sold it all because of OP. I liked Monero but the "community" was just economically illiterate retards like OP who gave me bad vibes, which turned out to be correct. I know I'm not the only one either.

>>60797896
>community into disarray

What disarray? You're the one panicking. I don't see the MRL guys losing sleep over this. And guess who I'm going to defer to on this? Them and not you.


>erase billions of dollars from Monero's market cap

Wah. Don't worry, it'll recover as always.


Monero took a lickin' and kept on tickin'. Crucially, the darknet economy, the primary driver of real-world Monero demand, rallied and took up arms rather than abandoning XMR for another.

THAT is what you should be worried about, not a temporary price dump. If we lose the darknet, then it really is over since darknet defaults are taken as gospel. Fortunately, looks like they're all in with Monero-chan, constantly being attacked only boosts her street cred.


>>>60797928
>OK, and I am guessing you will be paying for my electricity bill?

Mine at an *acceptable* loss like everybody else does, dingus. Nobody is asking you to bankrupt yourself here.

>>60796482
Very cute.

>>60798024
>What disarray? You're the one panicking.
Here:
https://xcancel.com/xenumonero/status/1956155081289588974#m
https://xcancel.com/tuxpizza/status/1956426086327459930#m
https://xcancel.com/sethforprivacy/status/1956379152036020719#m
https://xcancel.com/rottenwheel1/status/1956206449383587901#m

Like, these are just tip of the iceberg. You have ppl proposing Proof of Stake, or bringing back asics, or increasing tx fees, or this or that; any idea from insane to "acceptable" are being flown around. The community isn't consistent with its signaling against the news on social media. This, is disarray.

>Wah. Don't worry, it'll recover as always.
I hope so, fren. But Monero's price cannot stay flat over the years. Every year it is not growing in its purchasing power, it is losing its potential, staying still, not growing, getting smaller.

>the darknet economy [...] rallied and took up arms
This is some psyop you are trying to pull on yourself. Where was the darknet economy being proactive and fending off such an attack /before/ it reared its ugly head? We wouldn't have to shed 2 billion dollars off of Monero's marketcap.

>Mine at an *acceptable* loss like everybody else does, dingus.
You are awfully comfortable with how I should spend my money. But monero: Sound money, safe mode, amirite?

>>60797873
>principles over profit

>>60796575
>in a world where the global counter-economy has gone viral
That is an oxymoron. The counter economy is by definition opposed to the mainstream economy, which 99% of people will always be fine operating under. If your investment thesis relies on the masses of lemmings to suddenly care about freedom and privacy and autistic communist-run inaccessible internet coins then you are going to be waiting thousands of years.

>>60798080
I can literally do "technical analysis" like bawdy anarchist does every sunday on monerotalk and draw a line connecting the tops of the qubic hashrate extrapolating to 50 percent pretty soon.

>>60798078
That's an interesting topic to explore, actually. What is the typical number go up scenario in the heads of those investing in monero? I can only imagine it really taking off under a dystopian totalitarian regime that every country seems to be heading in with CBDC/surveillance/poor vs rich division/etc.

>>60798061
>Like, these are just tip of the iceberg. You have ppl proposing Proof of Stake, or bringing back asics, or increasing tx fees, or this or that; any idea from insane to "acceptable" are being flown around. The community isn't consistent with its signaling against the news on social media. This, is disarray.

I see people discussing options, not running around with their heads on fire. Any decision to change things is going to need to be VERY well thought out. And that takes time and cool, level heads.

>Where was the darknet economy being proactive and fending off such an attack /before/ it reared its ugly head?

There wasn't a compelling reason to mine before.

>>60798089
It double topped though... McDonalds logo. It's over. It's going to zero. Ohnonono Qubic-sisters...

There are 3 types of Monero miners.
New/naive users.
Communists.
Botnets.

>>60798108
>not running around with their heads on fire.
Check douglas tuman and xenumonero's last week episode. You can literally sense fear in their voices.

Douglas: "Run the miners guys."
Guys: (and how much are we going to get paid?)
Douglas: "You are lucky if you get dust"
Guys: (nah Im good)

>>60797822
Most of us do it at a loss. We are literally findommed by Monero-chan.

>>60798066
>>60798080
LMFAO

ok anon you got me laughing on multiple occasions. keep going

the principles over profit thing is kinda out there when you think about it a bit more. At the same time how can there be inifinite profit?

>>60798061
I don't see any disarray here except for that one guy threatening to sell his Monero but nobody gives a shit about rotten lol.

>this is how self-confident posturing and messaging is nowadays at monerosphere:
https://xcancel.com/monerobull/status/1956110140240806390#m

>>60798127
>nobody gives a shit about rotten lol.
lol I will give this to you, fren.

>>60798078
>The counter economy is by definition opposed to the mainstream economy, which 99% of people will always be fine operating under.

You have any idea just how massive and all-encompassing the global shadow aka counter-economy is?

>I can only imagine it really taking off under a dystopian totalitarian regime that every country seems to be heading in with CBDC/surveillance/poor vs rich division/etc.

Normies routinely go shopping for drugs on the darknet. And now we're going to give them a place to go shopping for smuggled luxury items and consumer electronics as well. All with XMR, of course.

>>60798138
man, you are so deluded it is insane. But tell me, what are the timelines like, in this fantasy of yours? How many more years do you need to show us that this "smuggled luxury items and consumer electronics as well" being "routinely" sold to "normies"?

>>60798138
>shopping for smuggled luxury items
I buy knockoff rolexes from China. They take Bitcoin and USDT on Tron. Not one vendor accepts Monero that I've seen. Same case with luxury handbags.

>>60798132
I think you need to relax anon. You are clearly venting right now but it isn't really helping anything. Monero will be fine. Getting mad at community members pushing to run miners is cringe.
I agree that miner profit should absolutely be a focus right now though.

>>60798191
>I think you need to relax anon. You are clearly venting right now but it isn't really helping anything
What? I am just having a discussion and laying down my arguments. Really, I am not angry or venting. I am just disappointed with Monero and its community (even though I've been here since 2020).

>>60798138
And technically I'm part of the shadow economy too. I buy Bitcoin, conjoin it, wait, then use my profits to buy gift cards without declaring taxes. Monero hasn't helped me in my quest to evade taxes at all, because to be worth it, I'd need profit I can cash out on.

>>60798196
>(even though I've been here since 2020).
and before that I've been a long time samourai user (rip).

>>60798149
>How many more years do you need to show us that this "smuggled luxury items and consumer electronics as well" being "routinely" sold to "normies"?

MoneroMarket & XmrBazaar = proof of concept.

Then its a matter of attracting evermore merchants and advertising to buyers. If the pricing is competitive they WILL show up, we just need to make sure they know the option is available to them.

Timewise? Years still. But hey, that's how growth works in the real world as opposed to clown world.


>>60798176
>I buy knockoff rolexes from China. They take Bitcoin and USDT on Tron. Not one vendor accepts Monero that I've seen. Same case with luxury handbags.

Baby steps. Clearnet sites are subject to takedown, snitchcoin profits are subject to tainting and seizure. Moving operations to the darknet and using XMR is a no-brainer given how easy it is to access the darknet now. It'll happen as soon as the screws really start tightening, Tether already routinely freezes funds at gubmint's request.

>>60798227
>MoneroMarket & XmrBazaar = proof of concept.
>Then its a matter of attracting evermore merchants
Well I /want/ to agree with you. Really, I want to believe. But the fact that MoneroMarket got shut down, LocalMonero got shut down, Monero's network is being shaken so easily, and its miners have been left to mine at a loss (which is not sustainable) ... all these are just sad events, blackpilling many, and leaving a bitter taste, "yeah, it will be better tomorrow (?)"

>>60798227
This is the Chinese we are talking about. Drtime goes down and half a dozen more pop up to take his place. Or they just use the .st domain which never bothered with enforcement. Plus the chinese declare bankruptcy and then file a new company regularly as a matter of course. You're talking about "one day, in the future, the chinese government will force those evil entrepreneurs from knocking off American brands" which will never fuckig happen. It's Chinese government policy to help them. Same with USDT on Tron. More stolen goods get paid with that in one day than with Monero in a week, or a month, everybody knows, nobody gives a shit but you.

>>60798227
>Moving operations to the darknet and using XMR is a no-brainer given how easy it is to access the darknet now. It'll happen as soon as the screws really start tightening
>it will happen when the weather gets cool
>that's when they'll make their move
You remind me of qanon believers, anon.

>>60797896
>rando autist with a marketing scheme
This is probably a bigger threat than the community not paying miners. Our marketing sucks outside of MoneroChan and does not cater to normies at all. The drug cartels whose liquidity we're trying to soak up can market literal poison to normies but we can't sell the only crypto that works to them?
We unironically need to git gud at shilling, even if it's outright lying. Everyone else does it, and being 'honest' is stupid considering who else is on our side of the table.
NICOLAS VON SABERHAGEN IS SATOSHI
AI POWERED SMART CONTRACTS COMING IN 2026
THE US TREASURY IS ADDING SEIZED MONERO TO IT'S BALANCE SHEET
WE ARE NOT A BUNCH OF AUTISTS WITH OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANCE DISORDER

>>60798268
>We unironically need to git gud at shilling, even if it's outright lying.
++
Bitstein: shill, shill, shill. You were born to shill.

>>60798227
Btw ordering a new Vacheron Constantin watch. Paying with Bitcoin for that lovely 5% discount. Too bad they don't have a Monero option.

How can a "Misesian", "libertarian" expect people to mine Monero "selflessly"??
https://xcancel.com/NJMisesCaucus/status/1956433066475356424#m

In what world Mises is trying to encourage a human action against its rational, economical self interest?

"Selflessly" is such a perverse word, that it makes me think (alas) Ayn Rand had a point.

>>60796609
Raise fees to make Monero mining profitable.

This is the simplest solution.

Monero is a unique cryptocurrency that offers real privacy, most people would be happy to pay a small fee for such a useful product.

>>60798207
>And technically I'm part of the shadow economy too. I buy Bitcoin, conjoin it, wait, then use my profits to buy gift cards without declaring taxes. Monero hasn't helped me in my quest to evade taxes at all, because to be worth it, I'd need profit I can cash out on.

White market giftcards aren't grey/black market. Counter-economy = grey/black market, the colors of agorism.

>>60798234
>Well I /want/ to agree with you. Really, I want to believe. But the fact that MoneroMarket got shut down, LocalMonero got shut down, Monero's network is being shaken so easily, and its miners have been left to mine at a loss (which is not sustainable) ... all these are just sad events, blackpilling many, and leaving a bitter taste, "yeah, it will be better tomorrow (?)"

Sorry I can't share in your pessimism but I'm still pretty damn hyped about the future. The project is adapting as its supposed to. You take your licks and move on.


>>60798251
>It hasn't happened yet so it never will

Conducting grey market business on the darknet with privacy coins is safer and ultimately easier than conducting it on the clearnet with snitchcoins. That is a simple FACT. You can build your brand, settle into a domain and secure your profits long-term without having to constantly look over your shoulder. And its not like normies going shopping on the darknet is science fiction, consumer behavior in other sectors shows that once the friction drops and the benefits are obvious, mainstream adoption follows.

Just as streaming piracy went from niche to normal for millions, grey market goods purchased via privacy-preserving darknet platforms could normalize, driven not by ideology but by convenience, price and the simple desire to transact without interference. In that sense, the migration to the darknet isn’t just safer for operators, it’s the logical evolution for a growing segment of commerce.

So its really just a question of who does it first. Not if but when.

>>60798362
>White market giftcards aren't grey/black market.
He said he doesn't pay taxes on this. You are just pushing goal posts by being, "uhm, ackshoually the REAL BLACK MARKET HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED"

Spin this up however you want, the anon you reply to shows that people are not using Monero for the things you say we should see people be using Monero.

>>60798372
>He said he doesn't pay taxes on this.

The purchase is white market.

>>60798362
>moneromarket.io
>The project is adapting as its supposed to
your own promotional image itself shows a dead marketplace, and you are saying "hyped! it is adapting as its supposed to"

man... I don't know what to say.

>>60798390
https://xcancel.com/monero_market/status/1917561427809952132#m

>>60798390

Yes, I know, I removed it from the OP when it shut down. Used it here for the Monero ecomomy tag, see?

NEW THREAD: >>60798401
>NEW THREAD: >>60798401
NEW THREAD: >>60798401
>NEW THREAD: >>60798401
NEW THREAD: >>60798401
>NEW THREAD: >>60798401

>>60798384
Buying white market goods with untaxed gains is a way way way bigger deal than buying black market goods. Ask 100 randoms whether they'd rather have meth or no taxes, and 99 will take the latter deal

>>60798115
I'm a moonchad. Down with the baketards!

>>60798138
It's a lot more than buying drugs. A lot of the gray market could really use Monero. Not even necessarily fully illegal stuff.

>>60798207
What kind of amounts you're working with? To what extent are you getting cucked by fees?
>Monero lets us evade taxation by putting us at a loss
At last I truly see...

>>60798227
After experiencing so much bullshit from Ebay, I vowed to never use it ever again. I list on XMRBazaar only now. Yeah it doesn't sell, but I just don't want the headache of dealing with tradfi and big tech. So it's not even a question if I could use Ebay instead. I just don't want to.

>>60798234
I think MoneroMarket and XMRBazaar set themselves up to getting cucked by having a clearnet presence at all. Being Tor-only would solve a lot of headaches. A darknet market for legal stuff would be cool. Having Haveno-Reto type of thing for Ebay/Craigslist would be the next step from there I guess.

>>60798268
Yeah.

Did you know? Monero is predicted to capture a trillion dollar shadow economy by 2030.
You would have to have 20 monero to secure one millionth of Monero pie.
Did you know? There are only 18 million monero.
Did you know? You would have to wait half a century for there to be 5 million more monero.
Did you know? Most people will never have one monero.

>>60798348
Mining at a loss can only be justified as an investment for the future where Monero is thought to provide benefit. The problem is most people will not think this much ahead, even if they agree with Monero's promise.

>>60798351
Yeah. I'm not saying I want this, but even if Monero fees rose to be almost Bitcoin tier, it would still be a totally worthy coin for providing uniquely strong privacy.

>>60794104
I'll hold til 0, actually.

>>60798776
I'm not getting cucked by fees because the biggest wasabi coordinator charges 0 commission, it's only gas fees for coinjoins. And I did about $2500 yesterday. I have some projects I'm working on so it's been about 10k a month.