Thread 60848755

Welcome to the /XMR/ Monero General, dedicated to the discussion of the world's most widely adopted privacy coin.

Monero payments are anonymous, low-fee by design and fully fungible, meaning users can send XMR globally without issue and receive XMR without having to worry about tainted coins. Battle-tested privacy tech (Ring Signatures, Stealth Addresses and RingCT) ensures that critical TX data cannot be gleaned from the Monero blockchain. Thus by default, the TX history of all Monero users is kept hidden from the prying eyes of adversaries, with TXs being optionally transparent via the aid of a view key.

Monero algorithmically ensures low TX fees by employing a dynamic (elastic) block size that can "stretch" to easily accommodate sudden TX spikes.

Monero's bespoke mining algorithm, RandomX, is optimized for devices using general-purpose CPUs e.g. desktops, laptops, smartphones, tablets, keeping the barrier to entry low and ASICs out of the equation.

Monero's tail emission - 0.6 XMR every block forever - financially incentives for-profit miners to keep mining, helping boost long-term network security. This constant linear inflation asymptotically trends to zero and is offset somewhat by a steady rate of coin loss.

Monero has thus far proven to be the only altcoin capable of overcoming BTC's network effect by driving it out of the darknet economy BTC dominated for over 10 years. Monero is now also starting to overtake BTC in clearnet commerce as well. See below.

If you still have questions, feel free to ask and a MoneroChad will be with you shortly.


XMR Redpill: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=wq6w03E2DS4

XMR Resources: https://libereco.xyz/resources/

XMR Stats: moneroj.net

USE XMR: https://cryptwerk.com/pay-with/xmr/

OFFICIAL WEBSITE - getmonero.org

WHERE TO BUY XMR: https://i.imgur.com/XdppsQ7.png
Crypto ATMs: see kycnot.me

>MINING
archive.is/TWOah

HOW TO STORE MONERO?

>Desktop
Official GUI/CLI
Featherwallet

>Mobile
IOS: Cakewallet
Android: Monerujo

Fuck your pedo coin

PREVIOUS THREAD: >>60828546

START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL
START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL

P2Pool combines the advantages of pool and solo mining; you still fully control your Monero node and what it mines, but you get frequent payouts like on a regular pool.

P2Pool has no central server that can be shut down/blocked because it uses a separate blockchain to merge mine with Monero. There's no pool admin that can control what your hashrate is used for or decide who can mine on the pool and who can't. It's permissionless!

Decentralized pool mining (P2Pool) is pretty much the ultimate way to secure a PoW coin against 51% attacks. Once P2Pool reaches & maintains 51%+ of the total network hashrate, Monero will be essentially invulnerable to such attacks.

Although many inexperienced miners think that bigger pools give better profits, this is absolutely NOT the case. Your profits in the long run depend ONLY on your hashrate, NOT on the pool's hashrate.


>YOU CAN NOW MINE IN P2POOL FASTER & EASIER THAN EVER BEFORE WITH THE GUPAX GUI. USES TRUSTED REMOTE NODES BY DEFAULT!!!!

1. Download the *bundled* version of Gupax for your OS here: https://gupax.io/downloads/
2. Extract somewhere (Desktop, Documents, etc)
3. Launch Gupax
4. Input your Monero address in the [P2Pool] tab. USE A SEPARATE MINING-ONLY WALLET!
5. Select a Community Monero Node that you trust, although you can and should run your own node if possible.
6. Start P2Pool
7. Start XMRig

VIDEO GUIDE: https://gupax.io/guide/

You are now mining to your own instance of P2Pool, welcome to the world of decentralized peer-to-peer mining!

>NOTE THAT DUE TO BOTNET SHENANIGANS XMRIG IS AUTO-FLAGGED AS MALWARE BY MOST ANTI-VIRUSES, SO DON'T FREAK OUT!!!


OLD GUIDE FOR P2POOL MINING FROM THE MONERO GUI WALLET: https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/eecbe

https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroMining
https://web.xmrpool.eu/xmr-monero-easy-mining-guide.html
https://monero.hashvault.pro/en/getting-started
https://www.supportxmr.com

>>60848766
that girl has extremely well-developed breasts
not pedo at all imo

*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****


Learn more about Monero's key features and excellent future prospects, have some common misconceptions dispelled and discover the cold hard facts about Bitcoin, Zcash and PirateChain. Also featured is a noob-friendly buying, storage and wallet guide.


>Monero: it's what new Bitcoin users think they bought. Every feature, explained
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org


>Why Monero is so untraceable: a rundown of the powerful stealth tech Monero utilizes
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroIsUntraceable


>The Writing on the Wall: Monero replacing Bitcoin as the new standard
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroReplacingBitcoin


>Breaking News: no, Monero still isn't traceable
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#RecognizingTraceabilityFUD


>Vaporware: why nobody is worried about CipherTrace's magic crystal ball
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#CipherTraceFail


>Very Clever Math: how we can verify that the XMR supply isn't being inflated
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#MuhInflationBug


>Pssst, wanna buy some Monero? Follow these simple how-to guides
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BuyAndStoreMonero


>Bitcoin: The Original Non-Fungible Token
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BitcoinBlackpill


>Why Monero is Better than Zcash: the "privacy coin" criminals won't touch
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#ZcashBlackpill


>The Lowdown on PirateChain: why this Zcash clone is considered a scam
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#PirateChainBlackpill


>LATEST UPDATES

- added Proof-of-Stake update to Zcash Blackpill
- added list of available desktop/mobile wallets
- expanded all sections with more relevant info, graphics & videos
- added easily linkable headers and sub-headers (link icon to the far right)
- added a new section about traceability FUD

Never forget what this is ultimately all about. Don't be a HODLtard.

https://archive.is/YBnPG
https://freedomcells.org/

>Help grow the circular Monero economy: buy/sell goods & services with/for XMR!

https://monerica.com/
https://xmrbazaar.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/moneromarket/new/
https://kycnot.me/?t=service&q=&xmr=on

>Shop on Amazon with XMR!
https://monezon.com
https://peershop.app

>Live off XMR with Cake Pay (now available in 140+ countries!)
https://cakepay.com/

>or with CoinCards
https://coincards.com/


>Monero stickers for guerilla marketing
http://monerosupplies.com/

>Anonymous burner phone numbers
https://silent.link/

>Monero-only VPS hosting
https://kyun.host/

>Win XMR!
https://monero.vegas/


Say buh-bye to Bitcoin and support the growing number of Monero-only darknet markets/vendors.

# = recently launched, exercise caution

>Alias Market #
>Asur Market
>Babylon #
>Calypso #
>Candy Haven #
>Chimera Market
>Cloud Market
>Cypher Market
>Dark Matter
>DrugHub #
>DrugTown #
>Drugula #
>FilthyFellas
>Gofish Market #
>Gramazon #
>Hectate Market #
>Mercury Market #
>Pygmalion's Refuge
>Retro Market
>Smackers
>Sonanza Market #
>Squid Market
>SuperMarket #
>Tribe Seuss
>Whales Market #
>Wizard's Palace #
>World Trade Center #
Links: https://pastebin.com/raw/fF95wTNi


Anonymously exchange BTC for XMR using a reputable darknet service

>Infinity Project
https://pastebin.com/raw/75mVpfED

or a reputable clearnet service

https://trocador.app/en/ | I2P: http://trocador.i2p/en/
https://xmrswap.me
https://unstoppableswap.net
http://basicswapdex.com


>Want to support further development?
https://ccs.getmonero.org/donate/
https://monerofund.org/

>Join a Monero Workgroup and (potentially) earn XMR!!!
https://www.getmonero.org/community/workgroups/

>Want more Monero-chan?
https://www.monerochan.art/

>How to *safely* acquire, store and spend XMR

An optimal XMR user set-up involves 2 separate wallets: an offline cold wallet (savings account) and an online hot wallet (chequing account) for everyday spending. XMR amounts larger than a few hundred dollars worth should not be stored on a hot wallet for obvious reasons. So ideally, you'll want to direct all payments/donations to your cold wallet by default and then transfer smaller amounts over to your hot wallet as necessary.

Relying on 3rd party hardware wallets comes with certain security caveats so they are not recommended. Instead, its surprisingly easy to engineer a very robust storage solution yourself using readily available hardware: a laptop and a smartphone.

>Laptop

This will be running Featherwallet and must be *permanently* disabled from ever connecting to the internet again! That means physically removing the M.2 Bluetooth/Wi-Fi card and gumming up the ethernet port with superglue.

OS should be Linux rather than Windows, preferably a Debian-based lightweight distro. Encrypting the relevant user directory with LUKS is recommended but not essential.

It must have a functional webcam.


>Smartphone

This can be your primary device. It will host both your hot wallet e.g. Cake, Monerujo, etc and the NERO view-only wallet that is paired with your laptop.

To set everything up: https://4rkal.com/posts/feathernero/

NOTE: if you don't have a laptop you can use another smartphone and install the ANON wallet onto it, its essentially the same thing but with somewhat weaker security guarantees. Video guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJqYzZyqyno

>In a nutshell

- you accept all (substantial) payments to your cold wallet.
- you monitor incoming payments on NERO.
- you initiate the transfer of funds from your cold wallet to hot wallet on NERO and sign the TX on your laptop via QR codes.
- you spend the funds and help grow the XMR economy.


FYI this is the most secure storage solution currently available.

>Bitcoin's price = NOT the result of organic real-world supply & demand = NOT sustainable

Wash trading has been artificially driving BTC's insane price action since the first major spike in 2013.

>Wash Trading 101
1. create/maintain the illusion of high volume
2. wait for poor unsuspecting fools to FOMO in
3. dump at a fat profit and leave them holding the bag

When the supply of gullible fools finally runs out, the entire scheme implodes.

TL;DR: exciting price action means nothing in an unregulated market rife with such manipulation, real-world utilization is the ONLY reliable metric of actual value.

Is this fud or is monero fucked?

so far
>known eastern european scammer advertising his "AI" shitcoin
>either paid indians or bots making it look like people back his project on socials
>somehow has access to tens of thousands of CPUs, and if not millions of dollars to run said CPUs
>possible corporate/state sponsored actor
>monero devs have yet to find a solution to the slavnigger

did i miss anything?

>>60848851
The devs are working on having DNS checkpointing. It's a centralized solution to checkpoint found blocks.

Just a reminder.
Ignore the obvious attempts at thread derailment from Hebrew miscreants.

>>60848846
it's a concern of all proof of work coins

>>60848962
Just a reminder.
OP is a faggot fed who has spent years trying to keep anons from holding what is obviously the best digital store of wealth on earth.

Glad i got my purchase in when the price was higher today

***** DISCLAIMER *****

The creator of this thread actively discourages holding Monero. We, the broader community of Monero, do not agree with him. Buying and holding Monero is a completely legitimate way to participate in the protocol, and we encourage you to save your wealth in XMR.

XMR is THE best store of value in the world. Not only is it highly scarce, it is entirely untraceable by any third party. No other store of value, including Bitcoin, provides the ability to anonymously hold your wealth anywhere in the world. Armed with only your seed phrase, you can literally take your private bank account anywhere without the consent or permission of anyone. It is like having an invisible stockpile of gold only you know about.

Privacy will be increasingly rare in the coming years, but the supply of Monero will barely increase. Many people understand that Monero represents the most undervalued asset in the world.

***ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER***

The creator of this thread has been credibly accused of being a federal agent. He actively pushes all potential holders of Monero away unless they agree with only using XMR in bartering scenarios. He will use straw manning tactics against anyone who advocates for saving their wealth in XMR. Anyone suggesting that Monero can preserve and hide their wealth will be called a "grifter", "moonfag", or any of several other slurs intended to end the conversation.

These tactics support the state apparatus directly by denying Monero the notoriety it deserves. Widespread use of Monero, especially through wealth preservation, starves the state of key financial information and tax farming. Pretending there is only one "legitimate" use of Monero (bake sales at Porcfest) while shunning any other uses foments fake division, a favorite strategy of the intelligence community.

Remember that many authors (W. Rees-Mogg, The Sovereign Individual) predict that states will get increasingly "nasty" as private currencies threaten their power of surveillance. The OP has strategically installed himself as the self-appointed "leader" of Monero on this board, but has no such authority to tell you how to use the best currency ever invented.

>>60849300
Maybe I'm retarded but I thought discouraging moonfags was a meme
>credibly
Post source

>>60849335
A meme turned reality.
There's even an antimoonboy podcast

>>60849335
No the faggot OP genuinely believes people wanting the price to increase is bad
>source
Me.

Either you pay your miners, or some malicious guy will.

i love wownerochan desu

>>60850137
it is just pump and dump. stay away.

>>60850147
it is the future of finance.

>>60850161
>muh future of finance
stamp of a scamcoin.

>>60850169
ngmi

>>60850177
not need your approval to mi

>>60849335
Moonfags are extremely hurtful for XMR. They are not unlike those people who think all people will flock to your country if you make them pay less taxes but fail to recognize that the next country can have even lower taxes. Monero competes with other crypto currencies by it being a functioning currency, not by giving you 1337x gains. We are not in the red ocean.

>>60850329
>functioning currency
>gets almost 51%
Maybe it's time to stop that "I'm not like the other coins" bullshit?

Monero is a centralized coin: https://xcancel.com/xenumonero/status/1960134073130635452#m

Monero cannot rely on its own crypto economics to secure its existence. It needs constant tweaks to its consensus protocol by a committee. Whether it is Howard "miners not need to be profiting" Chu, or Francisco "uhhh I would rather not increase fees" Cabanas -- there is someone switching and dictating terms to you, and you have to accept whatever these guys peddle as their opinions.

This is not cool to see. Actually reduces the trust in Monero itself as an impartial crypto currency.

>>60850329
stfu, you just cannot think straight, you are deranged.
we need more miners therefore we need higher price.

>>60850442
>Miners come for money
>Next coin offers more money
>Miners leave
Isn't too hard of a concept is it?

>>60850459
This is how Proof of Work works, genius.
>>60847419

Also, in its current state, it turns out Monero network doesn't have miners anyways (even though you Monero rewards its miners quite poorly, RIGHT NOW)

So, if your strategy of keeping miners at an "acceptable loss" would fend off the attacks, why is it not working for the attack that's happening right here and right now?

>>60850469
>why is it not working for the attack that's happening right here and right now?
We only need tumor weeks, these past 10 years have been just a warmup, more ideological miners will join! Don't underestimate the power of positive thought!

>>60850459
>>Miners come for money
Also, it this is something reprehensible to you, you should champion changing Monero's consensus rules. Again:

Proof of Work is fundamentally about financial incentives of the miners. It is not ideology. It is not altruism. Proof of Work works by simply stroking the incentives that create Misesian human action.

>>60850469
>This is how Proof of Work works, genius.
No, there is nothing inherently financial regarding pow and that's why I already told you retards a few generals ago that other projects work without a financial incentive.
>Also, in its current state, it turns out Monero network doesn't have miners anyways (even though you Monero rewards its miners quite poorly, RIGHT NOW)
Why is qubic failing it's 51% attack then?
>So, if your strategy of keeping miners at an "acceptable loss" would fend off the attacks, why is it not working for the attack that's happening right here and right now?
Because it worked for literally any P2P or selfhosted project that isn't attached to a cryptocurrency. Just hoisting 'financial incentives' on top of a protocol won't make it more secure but you will officially enter the rat race and better hope that there won't be some btc influencer who will steal your miners away.
The most retarded aspect of your argument is that the functional existence of XMR is a financial incentive in itself. You could be worth trillions but if you have no means of exchanging goods and services you simply are just reenacting the legend of king midas.

>>60850491
Tor, f@h, I2P, Torrenting, IRC, Matrix, Fediverse, Odysee.
>inb4 they're all to small
FOSS

>>60850505
>there is nothing inherently financial regarding pow
wut
>qubic failing it's 51% attack
nigga we had a 9 block reorg yesterday. We've had 7 block reorg the week before. Connect the dots.
>Tor, f@h, I2P, Torrenting
These aren't trying to be a global crypto CURRENCY network, relying on PROOF OF WORK. You cannot think about Monero (a proof of work system) in analogies to non-proof of work systems.

>>60850505
>compares non-profit projects of no direct monetary value to hackers to a literal financial transaction ledger
>calls others retards
???

>>60850399
>Whether it is Howard "miners not need to be profiting" Chu
Yes he's a faggot who unironically thinks XMR is a service, but It's not the job of the devs to make mining profitable. Any of the mining pools could have tried selfish mining if they wanted to be profitable so bad.

>Francisco "uhhh I would rather not increase fees" Cabanas
I actually suggested that we all start paying higher fees on our own and tried it myself; the pubic pool ended up receiving my fees. My point here is raising fees doesn't directly address selfish mining. Also, if the pools want higher fees they can simply mine empty blocks til high priority fees arrive in the mempool

>there is someone switching and dictating terms to you, and you have to accept whatever these guys peddle as their opinions.
The devs didn't force miners to mine at a loss. They clearly had plenty of tools available to boost their profits as evidenced by pubic, and chose not to use them.

All this to say putting this solely at the feet of the devs isn't fair when miners did nothing to boost their profits either.

>>60850519
>wut
Computing isn't inherently financial. Is that hard to understand?
>nigga we had a 9 block reorg yesterday. We've had 7 block reorg the week before. Connect the dots.
That their PR stunt almost worked and that it makes no sense that some random no name suddenly can reach 40% hashrate without some major backing?
>These aren't trying to be a global crypto CURRENCY network,
They show that you can very well expect people to donate their hardware or internet to have something functional if they see some inherent, non-monetary value in it.
>relying on PROOF OF WORK.
There were multiple suggestions to implement pow in Tor. Pretty sure it went through but I won't bother checking
>You cannot think about Monero (a proof of work system) in analogies to non-proof of work systems.
Oh sorry donating my hardware for one thing is so different from donating my hardware for another thing. In fact my electricity bill is just way more important to me than me donating my time for FOSS to actually work out.

>>60850526
>Monero is for-profit
No, there is an inherent value in having a usable currency

>>60850538
>No, there is an inherent value in having a usable currency
Fucking idiot, you keep missing the point. There's a lot of direct financial value in attacking Monero, you literally get to control the flow of money and buy things without spending any. While there's neither an obvious way no direct financial gain in attacking any of the non-profit services you mentioned above.
Damn, this community is truly retarded.

>>60850538
>Computing isn't inherently financial.
BROOOOOOO AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH FUCKING HELL

Are you not aware that we are discussing a "special" form of compute systems which have unique properties (like its digital tokens being scarce, a property for a digital tool that never existed before bitcoin, for example), and upon which we are building a MONETARY SYSTEM?

>That their PR stunt almost worked
It indeed worked. You have no guarantees that they will never do a 10+ reorg in the coming days: https://xcancel.com/xenumonero/status/1960117361240838241#m

"Per DataHoarder, a member of the Monero Research Lab, they had the capacity to reorg 16 blocks but left it at 9." ---- 10+ reorgs allow them to do double spends. So, wtf are you babbling about that "it almost worked"?

>There were multiple suggestions to implement pow in Tor.
You peabrained retard, Tor uses RandomX proof of work to deter against ddos. Monero uses RnadomX proof of work to reward its miners.

>Oh sorry donating my hardware
WELL DONATE YOUR HARDWARE HARDER YOU RETARD THE NETWORK IS UNDER REORG ATTACKS


I swear to fucking god this Monerogeneral OP is a fucking idiot, ,with zero financial systems understanding. If it is up to him, Monero will NEVER grow, and will be stomped under the three-letter-agency attacks (it is already bucking under the weight of qubic attack)

>>60850505
there is nothing inherently financial about money xd

>>60850548
he is inherently retarded

>>60850538
>Oh sorry donating my hardware for one thing is so different from donating my hardware for another thing. In fact my electricity bill is just way more important to me than me donating my time for FOSS to actually work out.
Do any of those projects payout in XMR for running it?

Wait is this retard a communist or something? Does he think people will just do the right thing without incentives? His argument is literally:
>well it's a good cause why wouldn't everyone try to help it
>well why would anyone even attack a wholesome public good like monero? there's no attacks haha what do you mean

>>60850561
>Does he think people will just do the right thing without incentives?
He thinks we need to psyop more people into going against their financial incentives and "mine at an acceptable loss" (jfc)

>>60850544
>There's a lot of direct financial value in attacking Monero
Weird, all of the calculations show that you'd need high daily expenses just to crash it.
>you literally get to control the flow of money and buy things without spending any
Oh I'm sure that'll mean a lot when you actually double spend, make it hit 0, make all of the vendors distrust it or even cause a hard fork.
>While there's neither an obvious way no direct financial gain in attacking any of the non-profit services you mentioned above.
And that's why xz utils was never attacked right? Also thanks to a non-financial incentive this was caught immediately and reverted. No one had to be paid to make sure it's clean.

>>60850547
>Are you not aware that we are discussing a "special" form of compute systems
We are not. You tried to make this about pow and later in this post you make sure to confirm pow is not about money.
>and upon which we are building a MONETARY SYSTEM?
Which has inherent value as an universal equivalent
>It indeed worked.
So when will they reach 51%? So far they haven't even been brazen enough to do that on their false, self reported statistics.
>Tor uses RandomX proof of work to deter against ddos. Monero uses RnadomX proof of work to reward its miners.
How much is Tor paying me to use it? Nothing? Is randomx not pow?
>WELL DONATE YOUR HARDWARE HARDER YOU RETARD THE NETWORK IS UNDER REORG ATTACKS
No sorry another project pays me better, that's all I should care for, right?

>>60850548
Pow isn't money. >>60850547 proves this too.

>>60850554
No, which precisely proves that we never needed a financial incentive to support something that is inherently profitable for us.

>>60850561
>Does he think people will just do the right thing without incentives?
Having usable currencies is an incentive. Would you also need to be paid to flush your toilet?
>>well why would anyone even attack a wholesome public good like monero?
I never claimed that. I said that the attacks aren't working.

>>60850561
it actually reminds me of first semester arguments in political theory where retarded communists tried to explain to me how people will clean the giant turd clumps that are clogging the rotting sewers because it's the right thing to do and why would you choose to be unproductive no we don't need money or private property and we won't use guns to make you do it xd
I'm so happy I got rich off of anarchocapitalistic crypto gambling in time

>>60850567
>So when will they reach 51%?
Why this metric? If they can do a handful of 10+ reorgs consistently, it is over for Monero anyways.

>all the other retardio at absurdum comments
not gonna bother with desu. you are inoperable.

>>60850505
>Tor, I2P, IRC, Matrix, Fediverse
Extremely cheap to run compared to mining. You can run them all at the same time it on a small single-board PC with a couple GB of RAM and 1TB hard drive (well, for matrix you'll need to avoid synapse and same for fediverse: pleroma instead mastodon or something like that).
>Torrenting
Well, many trackers look at your seed/leech ratio, in attempts to enforce good behavior
>f@h
Guys who run it are the ones who want to feel good, not the ones who want to do good:
https://gwern.net/charity-is-not-about-helping
>FOSS
Ppl do it because it may look good at interviews or as a hobby. In second case it costs them a lot (because programmers' time is pretty expensive) but usually humans are very bad at measuring this and don't understand how they burn money if it's not literal money, like with hardware and electricity.

>>60850567
>Would you also need to be paid to flush your toilet?
Funny you say that because I gave a similar metaphor: >>60850568

You really sound like an actual 18yo utopian communist. Monero is not my private toilet, it's the sewer of the whole city. And yes I will need to get paid if you want me to upkeep it because it will be a lot of WORK which people get PAID for or they simply don't do it. Especially when they have to pay for their own equipment and electricity in the first place.

>>60850577
>Extremely cheap to run compared to mining.
checked and agreed. I run and i2p torrent seedbox at home inside a 32-bit CPU single board computer from 2018, using a rust spinner (it runs like a champ btw).

Mining xmr on it doesn't yield any hashes (in fact, I remember XMR binaries have dropped support for 32-bit anyways).

>>60850567
You don't have to crash or hard fork the chain to make it less usable. You literally call it a utility. Don't you think its utility goes down significantly if all vendors have to wait for 100 blocks instead of 10 blocks because reorging is so easy to do all the time? We will literally be back to 3 business days to be sure that a transaction was actually real. Literally useless "money", you can just send cash per mail at that point.

>>60850567
>No, which precisely proves that we never needed a financial incentive to support something that is inherently profitable for us.
What does tor, i2p, BitTorrent, f@h, etc pay me to run them? If the answer is nothing then it's not fair to compare running any of these programs to mining

>tfw the monerogenerals OP have alienated himself from the thread he creates and that he become a whipping boy
funny but sad. We should focus on solutions to the Monero's unprofitability in its mining.

>>60850575
>Why this metric?
Are you new?
>not gonna bother with desu. you are inoperable.
Why did you do it before? Did someone pay you?

>>60850577
>Extremely cheap to run compared to mining.
Depends on how easily you can get storage and how greedy your ISP is. Also losing a few cents per day isn't a noteworthy expense. If you're running an exit node you'll also open yourself up for legal trouble in the west.
>You can run them all at the same time it on a small single-board PC with a couple GB of RAM and 1TB hard drive (well, for matrix you'll need to avoid synapse and same for fediverse: pleroma instead mastodon or something like that).
That'd depend on the amount of users. My previous point still stands. Also it shows that in general people are willing to donate their hardware and broadband without needing money.
>Well, many trackers look at your seed/leech ratio, in attempts to enforce good behavior
You meant private trackers right? I doubt public trackers care as much.
>Guys who run it are the ones who want to feel good, not the ones who want to do good:
My point is that users are willing to do something where they have no financial gain just to have a perceived net positive in their lives
>Ppl do it because it may look good at interviews or as a hobby. In second case it costs them a lot (because programmers' time is pretty expensive) but usually humans are very bad at measuring this and don't understand how they burn money if it's not literal money, like with hardware and electricity.
That's more of a newer phenomenon. In the past companies were iffy about employing people who believed and contributed to FOSS. Also most people probably try to grind out leetcode before contributing to FOSS (beyond adding sar to every readme).

>>60850601
>Are you new?
nope, not at all.
>Why did you do it before? Did someone pay you?
Because I entertained your "ideas" rationally for a while and then you proved yourself to be boneheaded guy who can't be reasoned with.

>>Extremely cheap to run compared to mining.
>Depends on how easily you can get storage and how greedy your ISP is.
Holy cope! Torrenting on the i2p network is MILES cheaper than running an XMR mining computer. Both in hardware costs, and in recurring electricity costs.>>60850581

>>60850579
>Funny you say that because I gave a similar metaphor: >>60850568
I noticed that too. I definitely flush my toilet without being reward 0.0062 good boy points and I'd also step up if my community needed some service so we all can live better lives.
>You really sound like an actual 18yo utopian communist
I'm not but I see inherent value in XMR. As soon as we make it about miners making money we are entering a rat race in which miners will only care about their gains. There's a reason a majority of shitcoins don't have any notable amount of miners, that's because they're not profitable.
>it will be a lot of WORK
You need to run four commands. It might cost you a little electricity but any bank account costs more in the long run. Same goes for any payment processor but the costs are more indirect there.
>Especially when they have to pay for their own equipment and electricity in the first place.
Herein lies the beauty of randomx. Due to being focused on CPUs you can easily get away with using your older rig to mine.

>>60850581
>32-bit CPU single board computer from 2018,
Now that's what I call a bad investment

>>60850589
>If the answer is nothing then it's not fair to compare running any of these programs to mining
That's precisely why it's fair. You have 'expenses' in both cases but some clearly show you don't need to get paid if the underlying good or service you receive is worth it. Having usable internet money that isn't backed by jewish banks is worth it.

>>60850606
>Because I entertained your "ideas" rationally for a while and then you proved yourself to be boneheaded guy who can't be reasoned with.
Why are you back then? Is someone paying you now?
>Proceeds to focus on one aspect
I guess that means you btfo'd on the rest. A win I'm happy to take

>>60850600
>We should focus on solutions to the Monero's unprofitability in its mining.
Checked
There's nothing else to do except buy as much XMR as possible to push the price up. A final Monerun to clean out all of the exchanges

so bitcoin (or rather the blockchain) has existed since 2009, crypto has almost 4 trillion in market cap, meaning there's quite a lot of money in it and nobody thought of a viable solution to fend off a 51% attack on a pow coin? (and no, asics are not a viable solution lol wtf are you smoking)
or are the monero devs just sleeping?

A couple of (probably stupid) questions about mining/node running.

1. Why do some pools have hashrate with periodic behavior? Look at nanopool.org or p2pool (main chain) or ntminerpool.com at at https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero, column "7 Day History". It looks like the period is 24 hours, and lows and highs are more or less synchronized among these pools (but it's not like there's an abrupt shift between low and high, so probably it's lots of similar actors, not someone centralized). I have hypotheses like "a bunch of miners with close longitudes use solar panels" or "European normies who mine on their PCs disable them at night" but they don't explain why only some pools behave like this.

2. Is it okay to run node on HDD after initial syncing? I already have blockchain downloaded and node running on SSD, but want to move it to HDD.

3. What's the best way to punch holes through NAT for p2pool and monerod? I have VPS with public IPv4 address but it's not beefy enough to run full node. I can just forward ports to it via ssh but I assume that monerod/p2pool, being peer-to-peer software, need to advertise their IP address so I'm not sure if it'll work.

>>60850617
>>32-bit CPU single board computer from 2018,
>Now that's what I call a bad investment
Back in '18 no it wasn't. The odroid HC1 was a beast back then. I ran Bitcoin node in it, and it handled it like a champ. Since then, it became a hardware that I simply had lying around. Tried running XMR node, it bugged out the ass. Opened an issue thread on github, sech1 replied, 32-bit support is being phased out and bugs "happen". So I retrofitted it to be an i2p seedbox. Isn't this something you would be lauding, mr anarchio at altruisum?

Also, isn't this your point, people donating hardware reousrce that they own? Well, this is the hardware I own, and I am unable to donate it to xmr mining in any meaningful capacity (~past 1k H/s) -- heck I cannot get past 100 H/s on it even if the xmr binaries would've run in that.

The slav is now flaunting on twitter saying how he can de anonymize monero transactions.

>>60850622
>buy as much XMR as possible to push the price up.
I agree. But Monero's liquidity is piss poor as well. Either we
1. need more acessible liquidity on centralized exchanges
2. or, somehow increase liquidity in dexes, seraiDEX (TBA), retoswap, basicswapdex -- get them really easy to use and get them accessible (I shouldn't be using terminal to use them)

>>60850626
>Isn't this something you would be lauding, mr anarchio at altruisum?
It's good that you reuse your hardware but buying 32 bit in 2018 definitely wasn't a smart choice.
>Also, isn't this your point, people donating hardware reousrce that they own?
Yes

>>60850636
>but buying 32 bit in 2018 definitely wasn't a smart choice.
yeah but it is smart choice that miners should mine at an "acceptable loss" amirite. You seem to know lots about things, anon. What a wise guy

>>60850642
Yes because XMR has an inherent value just how flushing your toilet does

>>60850651
kek. nobody knows wtf you on about. geez.

>>60850529
Unironically this. The holders and miners did not zealously embrace the coin to the point of basically creating a cartel that drives the price upward. Anti-moonchad bakecels that made endless propaganda against this happening need to hang from lamp posts.

Every successful coin, even Bitcoin, is driven by zealous holders. They like to pretend Bitcoin's rise was all logical and purely market driven but believing that is part of the zealous delusion that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Monero bakecels fell for the narrative and not the reality: They really believe coins succeed entirely based on logic and pure market, thus the anti-moonchad attitude. In reality coins succeed based on zeal and cartel price control. These are not bad things.

What makes Monero special is the fact it's the only real form of internet money because unlike all others, it is anonymous, while also having the other properties of sound money. Being a bakecel has no relevance to what makes Monero special, and if it has, it's a negative one.
>but much circular economy
What destroyed the circular economy on Bitcoin was above all its lack of privacy. Once people started to get rekt for using Silkroad, it was over. Monero fixes this. Another point was the fees. Monero also improves this with dynamic block size. The point is Monero, or any coin, does not rely on bakecelism for a circular economy to form. If Monero took off, it would happen automatically due to its properties favorable to exchange.

>>60850658
>bakecelism
oh, I'm gonna steal this!

>>60850617
>That's precisely why it's fair. You have 'expenses' in both cases but some clearly show you don't need to get paid if the underlying good or service you receive is worth it.
When one of these programs is roughly 50-70x more expensive to run than the rest, it's not a fair comparison.

>>60850630
3. XMR <-> ETH atomic swaps so we can soak up some of that tether liquidity. BitcoinVN is nice but we'll need more.
What happened to that chinkette working on that anyway?

>>60850699
>When one of these programs is roughly 50-70x more expensive to run than the rest, it's not a fair comparison.
My god how much do you need to pay for electricity?

>>60850567
>Weird, all of the calculations show that you'd need high daily expenses just to crash it.
Nullified by the ability to double spend, and gets easier the more control you have, because other miners start to drop off because of no profit for them.
>Oh I'm sure that'll mean a lot when you actually double spend, make it hit 0, make all of the vendors distrust it or even cause a hard fork.
1) Go prove that an actual double spend attack took place and not something else like your own node got compromised and isolated in its own version of the network. A state actor will not be so loud like qubic about owning 51% of the network, you wouldn't even know for sure if that dark mining pool is a single entity, especially when everything works fine for 99% of the users.
>And that's why xz utils was never attacked right? Also thanks to a non-financial incentive this was caught immediately and reverted. No one had to be paid to make sure it's clean.
We were talking about financial incentives, not political. Besides, xz is not even a decentralized system, it's a library. Backdoors and hacks like that require a lot of effort and skill to implement, the profit to effort tradeoff is not worth it in most cases unless you're backed by the government. Now look at monero: owned by some shitcoin scam from a chud. The effort to profit ratio is very attractive here.

>>60850714
>Nullified by the ability to double spend
And it'll immediately lose all trust, especially if it requires another pr run like this attack
>We were talking about financial incentives, not political.
Oh, so you can have non-financial incentives? Then we don't need to argue about introducing financial incentives.
>Besides, xz is not even a decentralized system, it's a library.
What's your point? My point, once again, is you can have non-financial incentives and this holds true for XMR as well. FOSS perfectly proves this since you really can't expect that much of a financial benefit by contributing to FOSS. You don't need a financial incentive if what you otherwise receive is worth your investment.
>The effort to profit ratio is very attractive here.
Yeah, the effort is just numbered in the hundred thousands per day to own some currency that'll lose all value and already is hard enough to cash out en masse anyway.

You cannot compare FOSS code contributions to running Monero. One is a one time cost for your full benefit that also affects every other user. The other is a constant cost for shared benefit that benefits you directly infinitesimally little.

>>60850505
>Tor
Centralized with dirauths (masternodes).
>f@h
Dead and irrelevant pure charity.
>I2P
Dead. Almost trivial to attack and was attacked a lot.
>Torrenting
Carried by tit for tat private trackers. But the fact public torrenting also works shows how the Monero wallet should mine (seed) by default. 99% of people will not care about using a few extra cents of electricity, just like they don't care about using more bandwidth for seeding.
>IRC
A dead protocol of centralized servers for decades now. The original proof that federation doesn't work.
>Matrix, Fediverse
Will probably end up like IRC and in fact Fediverse is very fragmented already due to leftoid tranny seethe.
>Odysee
Ded.

>>60850538
>There were multiple suggestions to implement pow in Tor. Pretty sure it went through
It did. That one was for a very particular anti DDoS requirement. Essentially similar to how some sites make your browser do a PoW challenge before letting you in. Not comparable to crypto coins.

>>60850544
There is a lot of interest to attack Tor and I2P. That's why Tor coped by becoming centralized and I2P hides in obscurity and is being attacked once in a while.

>>60850733
>the effort is just numbered in the hundred thousands per day
this is fucking nothing lmao

>>60850733
>ignores the fact that breaking trust globally will take a lot of abuse from the attacker
>tries to spin his narrative about ideology when politics have nothing to do with that, politics = infinite money
>compares apples to oranges
>ignores any previously given arguments about FOSS contributions stating they in fact are selfish in nature, doesn't understand the limits of altruistic contribution
>continues to ignore the benefits and ease of taking over the monero network, yet somehow expects it to grow to a global monetary system transferring anything other than weed pennies
You're braindamaged and unable to see that your communist worldview hurts the network and is simply unsustainable. I give up.

>>60850712
https://whattomine.com/coins/101-xmr-randomx?hr=21.0&p=140.0&fee=0.0&cost=0.1&cost_currency=USD&hcost=0.0&span_br=&span_d=24&commit=Calculate

It's a rough estimate @0.10/kwh, assuming that you have a spare AMD EPYC lying around. We'll also assume the network just says "Thank you for your service" instead of giving out block rewards.

>>60850747
>There is a lot of interest to attack Tor and I2P. That's why Tor coped by becoming centralized and I2P hides in obscurity and is being attacked once in a while.
I agree that they are of interest to a politically-motivated attacker. I don't see what kind of financial benefit you would get as a private attacker though. Just not worth the time.

>>60850747
>One is a one time cost
Comparing contributing once to constantly mining is completely unfair.
>for your full benefit
Depends on how you contribute. Often devs don't only implement the features they want
>that benefits you directly infinitesimally little.
Yeah, I just see barely any benefit in having a functioning currency
>Centralized
Absurd
>Dead and irrelevant pure charity.
Wrong, especially when so many people are crying about the old internet which is still present there
>just like they don't care about using more bandwidth for seeding.
I wish you were correct but lots of people don't seed unless it's automatic. If you fully believe people don't mind seeding you are agreeing with me that most people don't need financial incentives.
>The original proof that federation doesn't work.
Except that many channels are still up unlike failed centralized platforms even if they are backed by billion dollar companies
>Will probably end up like IRC
By still existing 20 years later?
>in fact Fediverse is very fragmented already due to leftoid tranny seethe.
Not really. You can just continue using it.
>Ded.
Growing as we speak
>Not comparable to crypto coins.
Too bad that the argument by the prev anon was that pow requires financial incentives.

>>60850754
>Pay over 100k a day to have $0.00 afterwards

>>60850763
>FOSS is selfish in nature
Who told you so, Ballmer?

>>60850567
MRL said they have the ability to do a 16 block reorg. The situation is dire. ASICs are resistant to this type of attack, but it's likely that all PoW is in serious trouble.
>>60850585
There won't be cash in the future. If you want privacy, something like Monero is all you'll have.

>>60850789
>>>60850754 (You)
>>Pay over 100k a day to have $0.00 afterwards
>what is a "media event"
>what is a "confidence shattering event"
>what is a "competition elimination event"

>>60850798
>>what is a "media event"
>>what is a "confidence shattering event"
>>what is a "competition elimination event"
This was about double spending. Also why would anybody care? Big players wouldn't if it was as easy to compromise xmr as you all said.

>>60850792
>ASICs are resistant to this type of attack
Wrong, ASICs further centralization. You could only discuss ASICs after you have shoved 'financial incentives' into mining by entering the rat race. And then you can only expect a few people to be willing to spend even more money to maybe get some money back. None of this will make govts think twice about targeting XMR so there's still more reason to mine other crypto currencies that are at less risk of governments outlawing them.

>>60850813
>Big players wouldn't if it was as easy to compromise xmr as you all said.
>currently reorg attacks going on
>reorgs are as big as 9 blocks, and already showing the potential to be as long as 16 blocks
>"h-heh, big players do not care, because attacking monero is easy as doing a social media marketing scheme"
>"a-and, this is why big players actually do not bother to attack Monero, and this is a WIN!"
>bakecel bros we won

>>60850836
>It's so easy to do that all of the governments just tried to ban it and even had cash prizes if you could break XMR
So why didn't they just do what qubic is doing any apparently make money out of it?

>>60850847
>le government already tried to ban xmr and failedd!!!!!!! 1111!!
nigger you haven't even seen nothing yet. You say attacking the network is 100 thousand dollars a day -- this is fucking nothing if you really poke the bear of the government.

Government attacks do not aim to make money out of it. They simply aim at destruction and shattering confidence in your bakecel party.

>>60850849
To add to that, it is obviously preferable to the fed to infiltrate the network and be able to spy on the transactions without spooking off anyone than crushing it. However, if there's no way to infiltrate it, then crushing would be really simple and cheap.

>>60850849
>100 thousand dollars a day
No, I said hundreds earlier because that's what the calculations of over anons said.
>this is fucking nothing if you really poke the bear of the government.
And you said it's way less and they would make money off it. The government clearly have already shown interest to have XMR gone. My point make the government side at least understandable but yours make them outright selfhating.
>I could reach my goals I'm already pursuing and make massive amounts of money off it? No thanks I'd prefer not getting anywhere close to them and have less money!

>>60850874
>And you said it's way less and they would make money off it.
>>60850849
>Government attacks do not aim to make money out of it.

>>60850879
>Reach goals
vs
>Reach goals and make money

In the end of course I want Monero to stand on its own feet. Bar switching to PoS and hoping to hoard the supply before others do, this is only possible once Monero achieves a higher valuation. If you believe in anonymous internet money, its benefit to you, and its future value once it takes off, then you agree Monero is something special that deserves deliberate attention until it is carried to that point. This was no different with any other coin that succeeded. It is time for us to begin the cartelization of Monero:
>Hoard supply to increase price.
>Use the increased supply to hoard the hash rate. Begin mining businesses.
>Continue to drive the price up.
>Nudge (to put it mildly) the development of Monero for further price increase.
This is not to be done out of charity but out of our coinciding self interests to control the most of what we believe to be a very valuable coin, and to drive it there.

>>60850772
Not much difference in the end when governments can contract private parties to attack the network. So they get paid that way.

>>60850847
Maybe they are doing it.

>>60850849
Yeah. It's on us to make this a lot more expensive.

>>60850884
>implying government is gonna bother with petty cash
nigger monero network is 5 billion dollars worth on a good day. Government doesn't care about "making money" while attacking xmr.

>>60850894
>nigger monero network is 5 billion dollars worth on a good day.
this is fucking nothing, the govt owns the central bank allt h lmao and now you are telling me that the goons are gonna be chasing 5 billies? gtfo

>>60850630
Just buy whatever Monero comes up at low-ish price. The liquidity being low is what will pump the price in the first place.

>>60850886
>Maybe they are doing it.
They most definitely are. In no world would it make sense for a random nobody with some shitty AI company (that doesn't even work in principle) to suddenly have a successful 51% only to make the currency he's spending millions for (considering he's been doing this attack on a daily basis for about a month now) worthless. If it had been even easier and profitable there's no reason for some big government not to do it.

>>60850894
If they didn't care they wouldn't have passed legislation against it. So it comes back down to this:
>Reaching goals
vs
>Reaching goals and making money off it

>>60850908
>didn't care they wouldn't have passed legislation against it.
>le government is actaully attaccking xmr and they are failing
>>60850849

>>60850914
Did they pass legislation against it?

>>60850329
however they are nothing compared to the commies that seem to be looking for a stablecoin

>>60850884
>>Reach goals
>vs
>>Reach goals and make money
Government already owns all the dollars you idiot. Only poor dumfucks like you project onto government their own poor dumfuck ambitions.

>>60850938
>Oh it's so profitable bro
>Except for the government, surely it never needs money

>>60850946
literally wtf are you talking about

thinking that a collective effort to hoard Monero will actually make a difference is the same logic as thinking that an ideologically dedicated community is enough to protect the network.
At the end of the day, we are small fish, and Monero pumping is at the mercy of whales buying and influencers shilling it, and influencers probably don't feel comfortable shilling a cryptocurrency getting delisted everywhere. Likewise, an attacker with a lot of resources can pwn Monero (in short bursts).

>>60850950
Previously some anon tried to claim there's a financial incentive behind attacking XMR and that it's very easy to do so. I disagree with that and said that if there was then multiple governments, who already have shown to be interested in hurting monero, would have already performed a 51% attack on monero.

>>60850505
>Tor, f@h, I2P, Torrenting, IRC, Matrix, Fediverse, Odysee. FOSS
THESE ARE NOT BLOCKCHAINS

>>60850987
>Odysee isn't a blockchain, it's just powered by one
And I thought /g/ was the most retarded board

>>60850886
>Bar switching to PoS and hoping to hoard the supply before others do
You have no way of knowing how much XMR is being held by nonfrens. This is a huge gamble
PoS is also not needed if time weighting is added properly
https://xcancel.com/BawdyAnarchist_/status/1956537556532597238

>>60850993
holy shit you disingenuous faggot
>Tor, f@h, I2P, Torrenting, IRC, Matrix, Fediverse, FOSS
THESE ARE NOT BLOCKCHAINS

>>60850813
I didn't say ASICs weren't further centralization. I said they are resistant to this type of attack. If Monero remained on cryptonight, qubic wouldn't be able to attack it with their CPUs or rent hash power to selfish mine. Of course there's centralization around entities like Bitmain, but there's also resistance to this very attack. Even XMR devs are saying this.

>>60850329
>the next country can have even lower taxes
Lower than 0?

>Monero competes with other crypto currencies by it being a functioning currency, not by giving you 1337x gains.
9 block re-orgs are dysfunctional and it wouldn't be possible for some faggot shitcoiner to do that if the price was 10x higher right now.

>>60850996
Wasn't it about proof of work in the beginning (>>60850469)?

>>60851003
>I didn't say ASICs weren't further centralization. I said they are resistant to this type of attack.
Centralization immediately aids 51% attacks. Also it decreases government resilience since the amount of producers of ASICs is extremely low and their output is way lower. It's way easier for them to poison to supply chain.

>>60851013
I am defending the other anon's position against your disingenuous rhetoricing. I am not defending my own position on that post.

>>60851010
>Lower than 0?
They could give cash prizes to attract more people. It's a race to the bottom.
>9 block re-orgs are dysfunctional
I don't care too much about an attack that requires 100s of thousands per day.

>>60851023
>I don't care too much about an attack that requires 100s of thousands per day.
HOOOLY SHIT WHAT A FUCKING COPEEE HAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAH

>>60851023
>I don't care too much about an attack that requires 100s of thousands per day.
And what if monero's price was 100x lower and almost anyone could afford to attack? Would price be a problem for you then?

Bro I am seriously considering joining qubic army just so that we can dominate this faggot. Just to see how far this retard can go with his faggot-ass rationalizations. Dont mind 51 percent, how about 80 percent with constant chain commanding reorgs? I would really love to see the faggot in this thread psyop himself that all is still good.

>>60851017
>I'm not defending my position anymore

>>60851033
>And what if monero's price was 100x lower and almost anyone could afford to attack?
Then there would still be an inherent value to monero and I'd be disappointed that barely anyone notices that privacy and anonymity are important.
>Would price be a problem for you then?
The problem would a societal

>>60851034
Do it, pay millions per day just to win the online debate in which you don't even defend your own positions anymore

>>60851041
>pay millions per day
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

>>60851041
Why aren't you disappointed that society hasn't recognised XMR's real value in 2025 of $50,000 per coin?

>>60851041
>and I'd be disappointed that barely anyone notices that privacy and anonymity are important
Kek, lmao even. The absolute state of monero's economic model.

>>60851041
>I'd be disappointed
You'd really be, wouldn't you. What a pity. This faggot-ass anon here's disappointed, everyone. Please mind him. He shouldn't be disappointed. Quick, mine at an "acceptable loss" to make him feel better. Also flush your toilets, that's what he like to see.

>>60850963
Calling it ideological is too specific. All successful coins did it by some of its holders having a seemingly irrational (in short term) dedication that believed in the coin's future worth and in the long term drove the coin there. In reality it's not irrational at all. It's to increase the price. It's not to protect the network. It's to make money, which also happens to protect the network.

The so called ideologically dedicated community of Monero should be buying Monero and not selling until beyond $10k.
>whales
Keep stacking until you're the whale. If you're not striving to become a whale one day, you're not serious. Because back in the day, so many people had what today would be called a whale stack of Bitcoin. But they sold early. Even what back then were whales, they too sold early until many of them were no longer whales. If they did not sell, they would have been whales right now. One day the Monero stack I have will become the whale stack. All I have to do is not sell and keep adding to it.

>influencers p-probably... bawww delisted
Shut your bitch ass up. We can do that ourselves. Influencers will follow us, not the other way around. Delistings are +aura.

>>60851023
>I don't care too much about an attack that requires 100s of thousands per day.
That's nothing.

>>60851065
Yeah more like fed shill economic model. Some have noticed the anonymity advantage of Monero. Now it is on those who noticed to pump the coin. This is how it really works. To sit on our backs and do nothing to pump the coin would be us saying we noticed Monero, but did not care enough for it. WE are the disappointment for not trying to control Monero like a cartel. It means we did not love it enough.

>MINING MONERO SHOULD BE LIKE FLUSHING YOUR TOILET
Kek, lmao even. The absolute state of monero's economic model.

>>60851013
If that's your that's your opinion then it's fairly safe to say PoW has failed. I take the position that there's trade offs. ASICs do get centralized around companies that manufacture them, but people that own ASICs aren't going to attack their own coin. CPU miners will attack their own coin like a parasite and if the host (XMR in this case) dies, they just go to the next one.

Significant change is going to have to occur. Your arrogance on the topic is extremely concerning to me. We need to be honest and critical when there are vulnerabilities. This is a potential concern for Monero's ring signatures as well btw. Pic related (if you don't know who this is, you lurk for two more years)

>>60851061
I am

>>60851065
>Wahhhh you can't have some kind of value that goes beyond a USD amount

>>60851078
Not what I said but go on join qubic

>>60851104
>That's nothing.
It is when you get exactly 0.00 back

>>60851117
It isn't arrogant, we simply shouldn't whore ourselves out so some miners will be interested as long as no other currency could make them more money

>>60851138
just flush your toilet bro

>>60851144
When will you pay me

>>60851148
you do it for free

>>60851104
You've deluded yourself into thinking that Monero's price isn't going up because Monero bullies are gatekeeping it and there arent people who want the price of Monero to go up lol
No. It is extremely risky to hold because of regulations. This impacts the price.
Monero has always had long term holders. I am one of them. But acting like Monero has speculative hype from normies is retarded. Keep stacking and take advantage of the cheap Monero, but pretending like the price action is something that isn't solved by rich whales throwing money at Monero is retarded.

>>60851104
A higher price would only mean qubic is more profitable. The CPU model has failed. We need to develop consensus on how to fix it, not plug our ears screaming "lalalalala, buy more." This will likely result in a fork if we don't have consensus drying up the liquidity further. We need to be honest about the problems that are right in front of us.

>they don't pay him for flushing the toilet, he does it for free
And here I thought OP couldn't embarrass himself even more.

he is a laugh riot lmao

>>60851156
My concern right now is these idiot newbies saying buying more will fix this broken economic model. We need to at least acknowledge there are serious problems and come to consensus on a solution. I do believe the qubic attack is state sponsored given pic related
>>60851117

>>60851165
>We need to at least acknowledge there are serious problems and come to consensus on a solution.
I am open to the idea of re-discussing ASICs and GPUs, as we have evidence in front of us that RandomX is failing to secure us from reorg attacks.

I would really like to see Howard Chu repeating to my face, "mining shouldn't be done for profit" -- gosh, I wish was there back in 2018

>>60851013
>Wasn't it about proof of work in the beginning
Yes, and then you took it on a completely different tangent by trying to compare software that pays people to run it (XMRig) to software that doesn't (tor, i2p, f@h, irc, etc).
If you want someone to pat you on the head for pointing out that PoW doesn't necessarily have to pay you in currency units a la Tor's DDoS protection service, then I'll do it for 0.1 XMR.

>>60851158
>A higher price would only mean qubic is more profitable
Not if the qubics being paid out to that pool's miners are worthless centralized shitcoins

>>60851189
>We need financial incentives because we already got financial incentives

>>60851199
>we already got financial incentives
dont you do it for free tho

>>60851171
The same attack vector exists in GPU algos, except even more so given the compute from LLM datacenters. Also, GPU algos can be mined with FPGAs. GPU mining is largely a meme given the adjustable parameters that are available in modern FPGAs. Qubic showed the playbook.

My concern is that legally in many nations PoS validators are 'money transmitters' from a legal standpoint and I suspect that's a possible attack vector here for states to seize control of the network. So we have a serious problem. CPU/GPU is basically so flawed it cannot hold off any serious attacker. ASICs are centralized around manufacturers of said product. PoS has legal issues concerning 'validators.' From what I can tell, there's no good solutions. Basically they showed a huge flaw in Satoshi's biggest innovation. We may be back at square one.

>>60851199
>We need financial incentives because we already got financial incentives
What exchange can I buy f@hcoin from?

>>60851198
Apparently that's not the case given MRL said they could've mined 16 blocks in a row but chose to stop at 9. An state actor looking to disrupt the network wouldn't play by these rules.

>>60851204
good, short analysis. we'll see what we do.

>>60851216
>Not even trying anymore

>>60850763
>doesn't understand the limits of altruistic contribution

The core Monero project subsists entirely on altruistic contributions.

General Fund: requires donations to not dry up.
CCS: requires donations to fund development, research, education and audits.
MAGIC Monero Fund: requires donations to fund development, research, education and audits.

Not to mention all the rampant volunteerism, a large share of Monero's ecosystem is maintained by unpaid contributors: coders, researchers, node operators, writers, designers, MoneroChads who all DO IT FOR FREE for some inexplicable reason.

In other words, altruism totally never works except when it actually does.

Cue the salty autistic screeching, I fucking love it.

>>60851275
>CCS: requires donations to fund development, research, education and audits.
This is not altruistic contribution. I fund projects in CCS that I personally use.
>In other words, altruism totally never works except when it actually does.
>9 block reorgs with 16 blog potentials
yeah

Interesting

>>60851283
>This is not altruistic contribution. I fund projects in CCS that I personally use.

Thank you for donating even though you didn't have to!

>>60851298
>even though you didn't have to!
Well I had to in order to use some widgets I am using now.

>>60851275
I wonder who contributes to the fund the most. If it's mostly huge donations from a few shady darknet figures, then your point is not really valid since not contributing would mean cutting of a limb to them. Yes, formally it's a donation, but it's not the same as some user just buying stuff on the darknet and donating a bit.

Also, you're arguing against facts: the network is under a successful attack while monero had 10 years to build it up based on altruistic contributions alone. There's nothing you can say that changes that.

>>60851217
Yes, a state actor could technically burn the block rewards and pay a pool directly in USD, but such an attack would run into the cobra effect at the scale a government can act on. Miners would be incentivized to act as honestly as humanely possible during peace times, warn of attacks, and use the funds to buy more mining hardware, all for the sake of creating a never ending War on Monero.
Qubic's attack only works cause of it's scale and paying miners in it's native token that will totally go to $0.01 overnight.
DNS check pointing should be enough to address the problem for now, and eventually timed block weights will 'solve' selfish mining for all PoW coins

>>60851156
>It is extremely risky to hold because of regulations.
A bit more difficult to buy, sure. Risky to hold? Lol no. They can keep selling to me at low prices and I'll hold all their 'neros then. Being already beyond the regulations is the selling point to me. It actually reduces risk because there is no regulations/ban FUD to be had, and no cucking to that end either. It's already delisted in my country. Oh no, what am I going to do? (Buy more lol)

>>60851158
Okay, then why doesn't Qubic start to mine Bitcoin? They can bribe bitcoin miners by like 0.01% and in the naive market theory all the Bitcoin miners should switch.

>>60851165
Monero extremists turning into cartels that hold onto Monero supply can secure the network. Especially with custom ASIC or PoS. I mean, I'm not against it solutions. I still believe increasing the price will make it too difficult though.

>>60851204
How anonymous the validators can be? Hidden amounts? Relayed like Dandelion++? As long as a Monero node cannot be easily distinguished as a validator, it should be fine?

>>60851345
Selfish mining? What about 51%?

>>60851275
Right, altruistic people are trying to build a system to interface with all the untrustworthy nigger monkeys out there, so the altruism has to stop somewhere and change to some incentive that keeps non-cooperative cheaters responding acceptably.

Bake sisters...

>>60851381
trust the plan
flush the toilet
mine at a loss
altruistics in control.

>>60851362
A bitcoin miner isn't going to attack his coin that he invested 20k/ASIC in sending the value of his equipment to zero. Some server farm in China absolutely will because general purpose CPU farms still provide value even if Monero goes to zero. The truth is, despite Chu's idealistic vision, we (users) never really controlled much of the hashpower. It was nice in theory, but in practice it didn't work out.

>>60851391
>The truth is, despite Chu's idealistic vision, we (users) never really controlled much of the hashpower.
something to think about

>>60851362
>Selfish mining? What about 51%?
A 51% attack would allow for selfish mining anyway, but with timed block weighting an attacker would need closer to 80% to do anything, if what BawdyAnarchist's is saying is correct. We wouldn't need a gay finality layer either

>>60851391
Some server farm isn't shit though because there are millions of CPUs all over the world. The problem is the price is so low that there's only enough profit for a small fraction of those CPUs to mine. Higher price = higher decentralisation for XMR. With ASICs that's not the case.

>>60851451
The CPU model is failing before your eyes and you're still on with this shit. The only reason there's any trust left at all is because qubic chose to not double spend. Reality check: There's a liquidity crisis given the delistings and that's not going to change. There are flaws with other consensus mechanisms, nobody is disputing that. But the one we're currently using is dying before our eyes.

>>60851228
Because you can't get it through your head that you're making a false equivalency.
>Tor
>I2P
>IRC
>Matrix
>Dnscrypt-proxy
>OpenDNS
>BitTorrent
>Yggdrasil
None of these FOSS projects have a native token that you can earn for running the program. You're just being a disingenuous faggot at this point.

>>60851492
>You need to give people more money because you previously gave them money
Please come back with a better argument. I'm sure your thinktank can come up with something

>>60851217
I think state actors secretly want/need Monero for their own purposes, they just don’t want it getting out into the public consciousness.

Whoever is doing this is literally trying to PROVE that a 51% is possible, but is graciously refusing to go through with it. They’re trying to get Monero to self improve.

Basically the only person refusing this gracious offer is OP.

>>60851391
>A bitcoin miner isn't going to attack his coin that he invested 20k/ASIC in sending the value of his equipment to zero.
If a state actor was willing to pay him the current value of their equipment + an attacker premium he just might. But, as I said earlier, cobra effect would take over fairly quickly and you'd be left with a bigger, stronger network when the state actor decides the juice isn't worth the squeeze anymore.

>>60851513
Literally not the argument I made you disingenuous faggot

>>60851513
>hellloo saar
>I have 2 year experience in altruism and 5 year flushing toilet

>>60851491
>The ASIC model is failing before your eyes. The only reason there's any trust left at all is because Bitmain chose to not double spend.

>>60851204
>ASICs are centralized around manufacturers of said product.
To me this sounds the least bad of all the options. Isn’t there something we could do to discourage monopolies and encourage ASIC competition?

Require all ASIC code to be open source. Develop it ourselves within Monero and license the code to manufacturers under the explicit rule that they don’t engage in monopolistic practices. Not iron clad obviously but there are plenty of mechanisms states use for antitrust enforcement.

It seems to me that communists that hate market incentives have infiltrated the project and they're attempting to destroy it by eliminating the economic incentives that makes it strong against attacks.
You can't go against the forces of free market economics and inventives, the world doesn't work on altruism it works on economic incentives and the free market is a force of nature that destroys anything that goes against it.
Not wanting miners to be profitable is as stupid as that Nano shitcoin who pretended nodes would be run by altruists, and guess what the creators were a bunch of commies blinded by ideology.

>>60851556
>Develop it ourselves within Monero and license the code to manufacturers
Some Monero miner chip using ricv/arm would be sick. But noooo --- You VILL do mining for free

>>60851537
>Literally not the argument I made you disingenuous faggot
Then why bring up that you can earn something outside of the immediate use case? My point is that monero inherently has a value that isn't just its monetary value. The same holds true for the projects I mentioned.

>>60851530
This is my position as well. If this attacker wanted to destroy Monero's reputation and trust and double spend it could. This is a gift. This is a chance to fix things before CBDCs. We do not need to wallow in delusions of Lamborghinis because we are going to be so rich because the coin is perfect. This is our chance to make it more resilient before the inevitable happens. Our current model is laughably broken.

>>60851537
That is true. That is also why I said "resistant" over "immune." I'm also not sold on this theoretical 'cobra effect'. The 'cobra effect' may or may not happen. It could work out like you're saying. Monero could also simply be replaced by something else. I'd rather the problem be solved before such an attack happens.

>>60851556
I think the problem is that RandomX does what it was designed to very well. If Bitmain could make something better, they would. Problem is, they can't. So as far as I'm concerned, RandomX is kind of dead.

>>60850581
thats the problem with crypto. everything else you listed there is useful but crypto is the most resource intense thing where the consumed resources produce nothing. an i2p node will let someone access a website or download a file but a crypto node just does intentionally super inefficient calculations that were also done by everyone else running the crypto node

>>60851491
>>60851543
And btw this goes even more for coins with lower prices like ZEC. ASICs are in total control.

>>60851588
>>60851543
False equivalency. There's zero economic motive for Bitmain to destroy their product. This whole space is designed around incentives.

>>60851557
>the blockchain: a system that prevents any single party from setting the rules, the control is in the hands of the people, everyone is algorithmically equal
>with monero, people are not only equal in their ability to contribute compute power, but also in control over their privacy
No wonder it is attractive to the commie cancer. But it's not a new thing: Howard "Free As In Flush The Toilet" Chu and his randomx is one of the reasons we have a qubic situation.

>>60851605
>"Free As In Flush The Toilet"
roflmao

>>60851605
Chu was obviously wrong, but that is part of being permissionless. I just view these things as a tradeoff. RandomX was so decentralized, it made it vulnerable to attack. Super cool idea theoretically, just failed in practice.

>>60851621
>Super cool idea theoretically, just failed in practice
Sounds familiar.

>>60851601
There isn't now but if there was in the future those blockchains would be sunk.

>>60851627
Good catch. In any case, Satoshi was also partially to blame with his "1 CPU 1 Vote" thing. That's part of why I advocated it for years. Monero was so idealistically perfect. We should've never taken that '1 CPU 1 Vote' thing literally.

>>60851629
>If in the future...
Well, Monero has a problem right now. I'd like to see all options laid out with pros and cons. Monero will be attacked and destroyed if things continue on course. We are lucky Q didn't want to destroy it. This very well could've been a more malicious actor. Next time we might not be so lucky.

>>60851640
>Satoshi was also partially to blame with his "1 CPU 1 Vote" thing.
yep. and the monero community chased that red herring for years with randomx

>>60851640
>>60851601
You're basically saying whoever invests the most amount in r&d and chip production should be put in charge of determining the true ledger because they can be trusted because of their sunk cost.

>>60851649
Yes and it's not such a permanent problem as it would be if control of block publishing was in the hands of the ASIC maker. Attacking Monero does not necessarily destroy it. It is less convenient to use right now because it is less reliable. If the "trustworthy" ASIC miner turned hostile it would literally be over.

>>60851567
>Then why bring up that you can earn something outside of the immediate use case?
Because you're not transferring USD/CAD/gold/etc. on the network. You're either buying XMR that someone mined with those things and transferring the XMR, or mining it yourself. The network and the XMR that can be earned by people who maintain the network are the same thing.
>My point is that monero inherently has a value that isn't just its monetary value
Trying to separate the monetary value from a network built to transfer monetary value doesn't make sense, nor does comparing it to other projects that weren't designed for that; you'd make more sense comparing XMR to RuneScape gold

>>60851679
I'm just describing incentives. I'm not advocating a solution. RandomX has failed before your eyes. I'm not saying ASICs also wouldn't fail.

>>60851679
>Attacking Monero does not necessarily destroy it. It is less convenient to use right now because it is less reliable.
Confidence erosion is a big issue for money.

>>60851691
Well then you need to understand the problem first then. How is this guy doing it? If he's spending unsustainable amounts of money to pull off a stunt then it's a problem that will go away on its own but doing something to address selfish mining would be a good idea. If he's actually incentivising large fractions of the hashpower to mine on his pool by paying them an extra bonus then the issue would need to be addressed with pools or something. You seem to have decided that CPU mining is the problem but what is your evidence?

>>60851718
He's making money attacking monero. You're losing money defending it. Is it that hard to figure out costs differ by region?

>>60851737
I have never advocated mining at a loss. That would be antithetical to PoW mining.

>That would be antithetical to PoW mining.
OP, you seein this?

>>60851680
>Because you're not transferring USD/CAD/gold/etc. on the network. You're either buying XMR that someone mined with those things and transferring the XMR, or mining it yourself. The network and the XMR that can be earned by people who maintain the network are the same thing.
And that's the use case. It's a currency that needs to be used.
>Trying to separate the monetary value from a network built to transfer monetary value doesn't make sense,
Separating the inherent value from monero in favor of potential gains is incredibly retarded
>nor does comparing it to other projects that weren't designed for that;
>What is abstraction

>>60851691
>RandomX has failed before your eyes
I'm not buying this doomer view of things. The fact that XMR was technically the most profitable coin to attack with this particular vector doesn't mean that keeping things as 1 CPU = 1 vote was a bad idea. It does need to be redesigned due to a new threat, sure, but that's just XMR doing XMR things.

>>60851778
>Separating the inherent value from monero
I'm not sure what you mean by this, so I'll just clarify what I've already stated: the inherent value is it's ability to transfer monetary value privately. If you disagree please clarify what you think the inherent value is.
>in favor of potential gains
The price going up means that more monetary value can be transferred privately with less slippage. It also means that goods priced in XMR become cheaper since the vendors no longer need to charge a premium to protect against said slippage. It's in everyone's best interests to get the price as high as possible and keep it there.

>>60851877
>If you disagree please clarify what you think the inherent value is.
I'd add 'anonymously' but in general I agree. However I believe that this inherent value is in itself desirable and doesn't need people to be financially rewarded on top of having said inherent value fulfilled by XMR.
>The price going up means that more monetary value can be transferred privately with less slippage.
Not really, the amount stays the same but the ones who held XMR have more monetary value. That means the price increasing only matters if you want to invest in it, not if you use it like a currency. Imagine for a second you're a user who only buys XMR when you want to purchase something specific that has a dollar amount (p) tied to it. It doesn't matter what the price of 1 XMR is, you need whatever n XMR = p USD is. Those are the people I care about in regards to Monero's existence.
>It also means that goods priced in XMR become cheaper since the vendors no longer need to charge a premium to protect against said slippage.
It would also mean that for the user I described above the amount of XMR he'd need to get is increased relative to the USD. Your pov makes sense if you can completely depend solely on Monero but most people still rely on their local fiat currency and those are the people I want to on board onto Monero.

>>60851737
PoWcucks: Lose money defending their coin.
PoSchads: Earn money defending their coin.
>But what if someone has a lot of Monero
PoWcucks: The top miners dump the coin as soon as they mine it because the coin itself has no value to them.
PoSchads: The top holders don't dump the coin because it has value as stake.

Uhh PoWsisters our response!?

>>60851778
Monero is a private store of value better than a Swiss bank!

>>60851877
>Inherent value is it's ability to transfer monetary value privately
What's with monerotarded bakecels and their complete allergy to STORING wealth? Why does it have to be transferred and spent? I don't want to spend it yet. I want to privately STORE it. Preferably with some appreciation over time but at least definitely not losing its value like it's happening right now. If you can't store it, it's not real money!

>>60851940
Here he goes again with his the price of XMR doesn't matter bullshit.
>Those are the people I care about in regards to Monero's existence.
Aaand, he raveled his true colors. All he wants is a glorified fiat mixer. He doesn't give a shit about Monero. He doesn't give a shit about actually having a sound standalone internet money. Too bad at the current extremely low price of Monero, even his desired function is being attacked.

I'm a complete newcomer to crypto (late I know, I've known about it for years but never bothered to buy). I'm looking for ways to store some of my wealth outside of the usual bank system.

Is Monero a good choice? Not too bothered about massively increasing the value. What's good for a newcomer in terms of exchange, storage etc?

>>60851991
While I agree with the ngu narrative, PoS is just another obvious path to centralization, only without the extra step of actually acquiring the commonly available hardware. The government and corporations have a monopoly over fiat distribution -> they have a monopoly over the network. Yes, they will pump the coin in the process, but then it will die.

>>60851991
>He doesn't give a shit about Monero. He doesn't give a shit about actually having a sound standalone internet money. Too bad at the current extremely low price of Monero, even his desired function is being attacked.
My sides, as if you moonkikes actually give a fuck about anything other than pumping xmr enough to dump at a profit. Never trust obsessive ngu pushers, they just want to use you for exit liquidity. They will of course vehemently deny this but their prioritization of ngu over spending says it all. Fuckin snakes, the pot of em.

This chart is absolutely screaming the fact that a wildly profitable NGU solution is found to the current problem, skyrocketing XMR into 5 figures.

Who is going to find the solution?
What will the solution be?
Who will go down in history as the liberator?

>>60852024
What's great about Monero is that it's private. In all other cryptos you'll have all your transactions open for everyone to view. That basically opens the door for the system to come back at you for having that money. So if you actually want to store some of your money outside the system, Monero is the best choice, at least digitally, physically it's gold.

Do the exchanges in your country sell Monero? If yes just buy there. If not, here's how you can get some:

Pretending to be a normie route:
>Register to an exchange normies in your country use.
>Buy something low fee like USDT/USDC or Litecoin
>Swap it to Monero on a swap aggregator or site like trocador.app, orangefren.com, ff.io, changenow.io.
>For bonus points, connect to the swap sites over Tor or VPN.

Trying to be based route:
>Install RetoSwap.
>Try to buy it P2P.

As for storage: On you computer, just use the official GUI wallet. If you want extra security, there are hardware wallets, but the most practical option for me was to dedicate a separate old laptop only for crypto wallets. Do not install anything else on that computer to reduce the attack surface.

For phones, I'm not sure which wallet is the best but there is CakeWallet as the popular option I believe. One thing to note is you should open the app once every few days and let it sync. Otherwise if you don't open it for a long while, it will take a long time to sync on a phone.

BTW it's not critical for anonymity in normal usage but in case you want to go for full schizo bonus points: Do you have more than 100GB free SSD space on your computer? You can run your own pruned node. That will make your transactions less traceable and help the network. If you don't have that, no worries, you can also connect to public nodes over Tor/VPN to have the same effect. Or just don't bother.

>>60852024
>>60845458

>>60852029
You can't pump your way to acquiring the whole supply. In fact, the higher the price, the less people need to sell (and the more other people want to buy too).

>>60851940
Higher XMR price would help your usecase. You are either stupid or willfully blind.

>>60851991
>What's with monerotarded bakecels and their complete allergy to STORING wealth?
I didn't feel like being that pedantic, but yes I support storing value with XMR
>If you can't store it, it's not real money!
I actually agree with this, and I don't think it conflicts with the bakecels either. Bare minimum, it needs to be stored for the 20 minutes it takes for funds to unlock so they can spend their XMR on brownies. The longer they can go between food stalls without worrying about suddenly being a few neros short of buying those caramel chocolate chip cookies, the better.

>>60851940
>That means the price increasing only matters if you want to invest in it, not if you use it like a currency.
I think this is where we disagree. It matters if XMR is going to eventually take over the entire black/grey market economy like a lot of us think it will. Some of us have already done the math and have estimated that for XMR to service that market (roughly $30 trillion) it would have to be north of $200k.
Even if the buyers and sellers only immediately buy and sell into/out of their local currencies, a higher price would allow more of them to do that.

(which makes me think of a wild future scenario where economies that rely on black/grey market commerce suddenly have the value of their currencies go up and/or stabilize because XMR softly 'backs' them and offers them a stable currency to trade against. Mexican peso $0.50 by 2030. Bolivar $0.01 by 2030. Yuan $1 by 2030)

>>60852173
I don't need to do it overnight. I just need to be consistent and don't let the price go wild. In the meantime, I will be catching cybercriminals and drug dealers, seizing their xmr to grow my stack.
And because it is private, you won't even know that I've acquired the majority of coins in circulation. I don't even need 51% to take over the network because not everyone stakes.

>>60850147
somebody bought at $1.25

>>60852148
Thanks anon. I like the idea of a hardware wallet

>>60852173
>Higher XMR price would help your usecase.
No it would at best have no impact. It would however incentivize people not spending their XMR thereby making it less of a liquidity and more of a long term investment.

>>60852203
>It matters if XMR is going to eventually take over the entire black/grey market economy like a lot of us think it will.
I don't think this will be feasible anytime soon if you're also talking about the irl markets. I'd worry more about how to off-ramp XMR before worrying about mass adoption.
>Even if the buyers and sellers only immediately buy and sell into/out of their local currencies, a higher price would allow more of them to do that.
That only holds true for massive purchases. Lots of small purchases are currently not helped by number going up a lot, especially since it'd encourage the behavior I described above in this post.
>stabilize
That would be extremely powerful regardless of where the price lies (as long as the market cap is still high enough to be usable).

>>60851991
>He doesn't give a shit about actually having a sound standalone internet money.
Yeah, I spent the entire day defending Monero being private, anonymous and resilient against government interference because I just hate all of that. And just so... more people start using XMR? I want a currency that's used not a 'store of value'.

Monero deserves to die if the devs are too stupid to realise that not-for-profit mining is unsustainable.

People need an incentive to mine beyond just keeping the project alive.

>>60852418
Monero owes me those girls.

>>60851117
>ASICs do get centralized around companies that manufacture them
So do CPUs. Only one company, AMD, is making CPUs fit for mining Monero. The difference is any miner that uses their ASIC to attack Bitcoin risks making their hardware worthless. All the rentable CPUs on earth could be used to attack Monero without affecting their value. The incentives to not attack the network are worse with Monero.

>>60852347
>I spent the entire day defending Monero being private
Did you flush your toilet tho

>>60852418
>uncanny beauty
Are they even real?

>>60852519
Yes and I didn't need to get paid for it

>>60852347
>It would however incentivize people not spending their XMR
I spend Bitcoin all the time. The only reason I do is because it goes up in value, giving me extra cash to work with.

>not spending their XMR thereby making it less of a liquidity
XMR going up in value would increase trading liquidity (1 XMR is paired against more USD or BTC, greater attraction to liquidity providers, more hype) which ultimately would lower volatility. Monero was actually less volatile than Bitcoin before the Binance delisting and recent whiplash in the price. As much as you nerds reeeeee about centralized exchanges and moonboys, they were better for Monero as money than what you have now.

>>60852577
>>60851540

>>60852347
>I don't think this will be feasible anytime soon if you're also talking about the irl markets. I'd worry more about how to off-ramp XMR before worrying about mass adoption.
We'd need a selfish mining fix, FCMP, and payment channels at minimum, which isn't that far away. ETH atomic swaps and a way to reduce the size of the block chain would be nice too.

>That only holds true for massive purchases.
Idk about that but this does bring up another thing NGU does: allows for more expensive , higher end goods and services to be exchanged.

>Lots of small purchases are currently not helped by number going up a lot, especially since it'd encourage the behavior I described above in this post.
I think it works both ways in practice. NGU also incentivizes spending from from savers past a certain point; nobody just hoards forever.

>>60852663
Don't you people get it? 2023 to early 2024 was your moment. Monero had lower inflation than Bitcoin, it was less volatile than Bitcoin. And instead of taking advantage of the best opportunity you had, you were all fixated on doing a bank run on Binance to the point where they just said "fuck it" and bailed.

not gonna read arguments above me and just gonna comment from my PoV:
>ASICs are cancer and CPU mining should stay
>mining should be profitable because basic economic incentives
>CPU mining /can't/ become profitable because hard-limit on hashrate (due to lack of ASICs) results in quick equilibrium of price
>PoS is a joke
two solutions are
>wait for regulators to fuck with Monero to the point where it's easier to mine than to buy
>force people to mine (for example a multiplayer gayme using one thread to mine XMR)

>>60852745
>to the point where it's easier to mine than to buy
You're talking about the entire planet having an easier time fighting over 432 Monero/day than they would have buying it. That's like digging up gold with a shovel and refining it being easier than going to a dealer, and would mean all economies of scale would be obliterated. That scenario would mean Monero isn't tradeable anywhere, even p2p for goods, and the entire network would be gone.

>force people to mine
back to the gulags commie

None of your solutions are remotely near solutions.

Time for you goys to give me all your 'neros and switch to PoS. That way I'll take care of the network and you will have nothing to worry about.

>>60852784
>You're talking about the entire planet having an easier time fighting over 432 Monero/day than they would have buying it. That's like digging up gold with a shovel and refining it being easier than going to a dealer, and would mean all economies of scale would be obliterated. That scenario would mean Monero isn't tradeable anywhere, even p2p for goods, and the entire network would be gone.
what I meant is that with overregulated exchanges some would choose mine just to protect their privacy
>back to the gulags commie
I specifically mentioned incentives because I'm don't disregard human nature
"force" as in "use of this service requires you to mine XMR". It's theoretically possible to design something that's not just a botnet with extra steps. Many sites use meaningless PoW as anti-bot measurements. Would a meaningful PoW (cryptomining) work?
>None of your solutions are remotely near solutions.
well I just quickly posted some shit just because shit above me looked like an unreadable argument

>>60852834
Alright, I get you. The only problem is that things like a video game that includes mining, or miners using hardware they already own, or mining because they believe in the network, are all quantifiable costs & benefits.

With something like Bitcoin the formula is simple:
Hardware+electricity costs = mining profits

Bring in additional incentives and you get
Hardware+electricity costs = mining profits+video game enjoyment,
or
Hardware+electricity costs = mining profits+benefit to your ideology

There's still costs and benefits, you're just subsidizing those costs from somewhere else (your hobby, ideology, whatever). Volunteer miners, or video games, or whatever don't eliminate the costs of production, they just make them harder to measure.

>>60852505
>muh secret Amazon miners
This is another narrative that sounds like it could be bullshit. Is there a way to calculate how much hash power could be thrown out by such an actor without Normans calling Netflix's help line to ask why their Stranger Things stream keeps stuttering?

>>60852880
>Hardware+electricity costs = mining profits+video game enjoyment,
desu I was thinking more of something like
>to play vidya you must mine shares (all profits go to server janny)
which is theoretically possible but probably unachievable

>ASICs le bad
>CPUs le bad
>PoS le bad
At this point we just need an abstraction over the block mining algorithm that would allow swapping the implementation without requiring a hardfork. This way if any of the imaginary problems with any of the solutions becomes real, miners would just switch to a different algorithm by changing a config parameter. And whichever is the best short-term becomes the solution for now.

>>60852896
There are X CPUs on earth. Only a tiny % of those CPUs are currently used to mine Monero. But theoretically someone could rent out more CPUs than currently used to mine to attack the network with, without harming their value.

With SHA256 ASICs, nearly 100% of the supply is used to mine Bitcoin, owned by miners who paid for them. If the Bitcoin network goes down those ASICs become worthless. So to attack the Bitcoin network you have to convince 51% of miners that making their entire hardware investment worthless is worth it, in addition to the electricity costs.

>>60852916
Then you have additional costs, game development, marketing, worse benchmarks since some CPU is going to non-game mining, etc., plus the difficult-to-measure benefit of game enjoyment. It's tacking additional things onto hardware+electricity costs=miner revenue, which makes your security budget impossible to measure. It's the same problem proof of stake has.

>>60852933
I don't disagree, I just question how much of an effect they'd have, especially if we assume that this is already happening at some scale. In other words, if:
X = all tasks being done by all CPUs
A = all CPUs dedicated to mining XMR
B = all other CPUs
B1 = all CPU threads that could be recruited without raising any alarms
B2 = all other threads that couldn't be recruited without raising any alarms
And
A + B1 + B2 = X
How big is B1? I'm asking because it might not be much larger than the 2.1gh/s than we're seeing now, especially considering the likelihood that these secret data centers aren't being run on top of the line CPUs

>>60851335
>I wonder who contributes to the fund the most
>some user just buying stuff on the darknet and donating a bit.

Judging by the average size of donations, its primarily pleb enthusiasts with an occasional heavy hitter.

https://x.com/WatchFund


>>60852933
>With SHA256 ASICs, nearly 100% of the supply is used to mine Bitcoin, owned by miners who paid for them. If the Bitcoin network goes down those ASICs become worthless. So to attack the Bitcoin network you have to convince 51% of miners that making their entire hardware investment worthless is worth it, in addition to the electricity costs.

We've already been over this. The issue with ASICs is that you can't build them yourself with off-the-shelf parts so they gotta be imported from Asia, which makes them subject to prohibition. Not to mention that industrial mining farms are forever just one court order away from having their internet and electricity cut off. A 51% nation-state attack on BTC thus isn't necessary since a logistical attack is easier and costs essentially $0.00.

Can you seriously imagine a scenario where seething governments finally declare total war on XMR for its complicity in muh terrorism/muh CP/muh narco trade/muh tax evasion while allowing you continued access to specialized mining ASICs? Or XMR mining farms being left alone? Of course not.

At-home mining through Tor/I2P on general-purpose hardware is about as permissionless and anonymous as PoW gets. Very on-brand for Monero.

>>60853226
>its primarily pleb enthusiasts with an occasional heavy hitter.
it more like primarily heavy hitters with some pleb enths.

Lots of times the CCSes got completed or halfwayed by a singular donation.

>>60853226
>The issue with ASICs is that you can't build them yourself with off-the-shelf parts so they gotta be imported from Asia,
CPUs as well.
>which makes them subject to prohibition.
government can apply customs ban to high end CPUs and whatnot.

> A 51% nation-state attack on BTC thus isn't necessary since a logistical attack is easier and costs essentially $0.00.
Yet we have never seen such an attack, even though, according to you, it is a piece of cake.

>At-home mining
>>60849949

>>60852663
>The only reason I do is because it goes up in value
Waiting loner would give you more money
>XMR going up in value would increase trading liquidity
Incorrect. Goods that cost more USD get traded less.
>CEXs good
What was that about 'showing your true colors'?

>>60853247
>it more like primarily heavy hitters with some pleb enths.

Nah, the vast majority of donations are below $50. See for yourself.


>Lots of times the CCSes got completed or halfwayed by a singular donation.

Don't look a benevolent whale in its blowhole.


>>60853263
>CPUs as well
>government can apply customs ban to high end CPUs and whatnot.

I love how you say this with a straight face.


>Yet we have never seen such an attack, even though, according to you, it is a piece of cake.

A delivery of BTC ASIC miners was impounded earlier this year. The precedent has already been set.

>>60853307
>>CPUs as well
>>government can apply customs ban to high end CPUs and whatnot.
>I love how you say this with a straight face.
and your point is.. what?

>A delivery of BTC ASIC miners was impounded earlier this year. The precedent has already been set.
What has been the effect of it on btc hashrate? Did it fall? Did btc network got weaker?

>>60853226
We have already seen the effects of industrial ASIC mining farms getting cut off by the State when China did it in 2019. All the miners moved to the USA, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan. Nothing happened, the hash rate went even higher, and they're still mining Bitcoin in China.

And sure, maybe one country could try to ban me from buying mining equipment through the mail, the same way they've banned drugs or unlicensed money transmission. Yet I can still buy acid or do cash through mail deals.
Some ASICs look like indoor heaters. You can't honestly think the postal service is going to check every serial number while you simultaneously shill your mail-based black & grey markets. In that case they could just as effectively ban people from buying more than 1 Ryzen or Threadripper CPU per household. Pick a lane.

You completely ignoring reality is not "we've already been over this".

>>60853346
>and they're still mining Bitcoin in China.
yep, which is amazing, really. Even though china has banned bitcoin mining, as the bakecels in this thread has been singing to the tune of -- yet, this did not really deter bitcoin miners in china mining on the periphery regions with heavy rain seasons.

>>60853368
>as the bakecels in this thread has been singing to the tune of -- yet, this did not really deter bitcoin miners in china mining on the periphery regions with heavy rain seasons.
Bakecels, take note: this is what financial incentive allows humans to do. They take risk with the law and punishment, but do it anyways. Why? Because bitcoin mining is lucrative if you have lots of SHA256 machines lying around already, and if you have the mythical sub 1 cent/kWh electricity price rates available (which during the rainy season china does).

>all of this doomer posting
>literally the best performing day since the dump

>>60853282
>Waiting loner would give you more money
Yes, that's why everyone who has ever invested doesn't own a house, doesn't own a car, and starved to death because they wouldn't spend money on food.

>Goods that cost more USD get traded less
Monero is MONEY. The money with the biggest market cap has the least amount of volatility and becomes the global medium. A billion dollar swap doesn't move the USD much when there's trillions of dollars worth of it. Generally, higher market cap means less volatility means a better medium of exchange.

>What was that about 'showing your true colors'?
I said CEX in respect to volatility & stability, which effect's Monero's usefulness as a medium of exchange. Don't start shitting your pants.

>>60853346
correction, 2021 not 2019

>>60853394
>a-are you a m-m-m-MOONFAGGOT??!!!!!1111
>YOU ARE A MOONFAGGOT YOU FAGGOT
>GET OUTTA THE THREAD REEEEEEEEEEEE33
>MONERO IS A TERRIBLE INVESTMENT
>NEVER BUY MONERO

12 rules for bakesales
>mine at an acceptable loss
>flush your toilet
>price pumps are bad
>price appreciations are suspect
>government tried and failed to defeat xmr
>go on irrelevant tangents in the thread
>act as if we "already discussed this"
>reply with a reaction image
>51 percent atak? never happened/will never happen
>reorgs out the ass? minor inconvenience
>cexes? no, you gotta jump through eleven hoops to get monero
>no liq no dexes? use pay by mail with a literal who anyways

>>60853453
1 rule for the replycel
>sneed

>>60853480
heckin based lmao

>>60853313
>and your point is.. what?

Crypto ASIC miners are specialized hardware nobody else wants or needs. Geddit?


>What has been the effect of it on btc hashrate? Did it fall? Did btc network got weaker?

lol that was just a single delivery that proved the point.


>>60853346
Just keep kicking the can down the road, bro!

lol the weakly-enforced China "ban" didn't prove Bitcoin's invulnerability, it proved its fragility: the hashrate collapsed by half overnight and rebounded *only* because other jurisdictions allowed miners to set up camp. Pretending "nothing happened" is therefore revisionist, the episode proved State power can disrupt Bitcoin's security with the stroke of a pen. If multiple large jurisdictions coordinated (as with semiconductors or rare earths), recovery would be far from trivial.

ASICs aren't like drugs or Ryzen CPUs you sneak through the mail, they're bulky, power-hungry machines that require warehouses, megawatts and supply chains that governments already regulate. Pretending customs agents won't notice container loads of money-printing hardware is laughable. Governments don't need to track every CPU purchase, but they absolutely can and do control imports of specialized, high-power equipment. If Ryzen chips were magically siphoning off billions in capital flight, you bet states would intervene. Customs and commercial shipping oversight already choke hardware flows at scale, just ask Huawei or Nvidia what export bans feel like.

Bottom line: Bitcoin ASIC mining is not untouchable contraband you can slip into the mail, its industrial infrastructure that depends on global supply chains, bulk logistics and heavy power draw. Therefore it is doomed to forever remain permissioned. The only people pretending otherwise are those desperate to believe their heavy bags are immune to reality.

In b4 the "da gubberment would never do that" cope. Have fun, kids!

>>60853488
>>and your point is.. what?
>Crypto ASIC miners are specialized hardware nobody else wants or needs. Geddit?
You replied to me saying, "govt can apply customs ban to high end CPUs" you idiot.

>lol that was just a single delivery that proved the point.
>screenshot from 2021
>meanwhile 3 year chart shows consistent upwards movement
>https://www.coinwarz.com/mining/bitcoin/hashrate-chart
>"proved the point"
Are you sincerely retarded?

>>60853507
>You replied to me saying, "govt can apply customs ban to high end CPUs" you idiot.

You appear to be rather confused.

>>"proved the point"
>Are you sincerely retarded?

Yes, governments are clearly powerless to prevent the importation of specialized mining hardware from overseas.

>>60853546
>You appear to be rather confused.
>lol that was just a single delivery that proved the point.
>screenshot from 2021
>meanwhile 3 year chart shows consistent upwards movement
>https://www.coinwarz.com/mining/bitcoin/hashrate-chart
>"proved the point"
Are you sincerely retarded?

>>60853559
>>meanwhile 3 year chart shows consistent upwards movement

>the hashrate collapsed by half overnight and rebounded *only* because other jurisdictions allowed miners to set up camp.

Permissioned.

>>60853570
>>rebounded *only* because other jurisdictions allowed miners to set up camp.
this is the story you tell yourself?

>>60853488
>>60853570
See pic related

>>60853612
I used to run an S9 at home, and it did indeed bring in a better ROI than running XMRig on my gaming computer at night.

Monero is absolutely pathetic considering the fact that this was supposed to be the "home mineable" currency, as opposed to bitcoin.

>>60853612
>See pic related

>In b4 the "da gubberment would never do that" cope.

Like fucking clockwork.

>>60853636
You aping some one liner you worked extra hard to come up with all by yourself does not negate the fact that States are subject to rational incentives.

>>60853651

Better keep mining then!


>>60853657
>bla bla bla ASIC mining is, admittedly, permissioned but its totally OK, bro!

Hoping the govt doesn't hurt you is not how cypherpunks do things.

>>60852148
>Register to an exchange normies in your country use.
I tried Kraken but it had strict ID requirements. What's good to use? Changelly?

>>60853690
>Better keep mining then!
>>60853626

>>60853690
Here we go again. The second you get caught out as being absolutely fucking stupid you resort to hyperbole, straw manning, and gay react images. Can you try a different approach for once in your life?

>>60853707
>Can you try a different approach for once in your life?
He can't. He follows the teachings in my book:>>60853453

>>60853626
Out of curiousity what price would XMR need to be for it to have been as profitable as an S9 for you?

>>60853707
>get caught out as being absolutely fucking stupid

Oh? Did ASIC mining magically become permissionless in the past 5 minutes?

>>60853690
Right now you basically need qubic's permission to use the chain. You can only use it because they allow you to

>>60853729
Please show me your factory where you refine raw silicon into Ryzen 9 chips.

>>60853726
no idea, this was back in 2021

>price just went up
QUICK! STOP! I HATE MAKING MONEY

Don't tell him that China might attack Taiwan and block manufacturing and export of his permissionless CPUs.

>>60853758
>>60853726
I remember mining ETH in 2020-2021, as well as Monero. At the peak I was making like $1000/month off ETH while Monero was like, a few dollars. Income off gas fees were nuts. Plus I ended up selling my GPUs for more than I bought them. I know that's one isolated instance, but it was a comfy time. Monero would have to pull a 100X to match back then.

>>60853764
righto my brudda. you shud kam to may bake sael and buy weed. the govt is done

>>60853767
he will claim that it proves his point in a retarded sort of way anyways

>>60853772
>At the peak I was making like $1000/month off ETH while Monero was like, a few dollars.
Many such cases. This is what Howard Chu wanted btw.

>>60853732
>Right now you basically need qubic's permission to use the chain. You can only use it because they allow you to

Uh, no.

>>60853755
>Please show me your factory where you refine raw silicon into Ryzen 9 chips.

Ryzen 9 use cases:

>Gaming
High-FPS competitive gaming (paired with powerful GPUs)
Streaming while gaming (game + OBS encoding simultaneously)

>Content Creation
Video editing (Adobe Premiere, DaVinci Resolve)
3D rendering (Blender, Cinema4D)
Music production & audio processing (FL Studio, Ableton, Pro Tools)
Graphic design & photo editing (Photoshop, Illustrator)

>Software Development
Compiling large codebases (C++, Java, etc.)
Running multiple IDEs, emulators, and debuggers
Android/iOS app development with virtualization

>Virtualization & Emulation
Running multiple virtual machines (VMware, VirtualBox)
Hosting test environments and container clusters (Docker, Kubernetes)
High-performance emulation (e.g. console emulators)

>Scientific & Technical Workloads
Data science & machine learning (TensorFlow, PyTorch with CPU workloads)
Simulation software (MATLAB, ANSYS, engineering tools)
Large dataset processing and number crunching

>Productivity & Multitasking
Heavy multitasking (dozens of browser tabs + productivity apps)
Office suites, remote work setups, and virtual collaboration
Running multiple monitors and high-res workflows

>Home Servers / Workstations
NAS/home lab setups
Game servers or dedicated streaming servers
Video transcoding and Plex media servers

-

>Crypto mining ASIC use cases
Mining crypto


>>60853767
>Don't tell him that China might attack Taiwan and block manufacturing and export of his permissionless CPUs.

lol as if only RandomX miners would be affected. Which just underscores the point: withholding access to CPUs would affect everybody, withholding access to mining ASICs affects only miners.

ASIC mining = permissioned.

>>60853809
>literally a bot message
lmao. At this point, the bakecels are simply baiting you to reply to them and bump the thread. None of what they post makes any sense whatsoever compared to what you see with your own very eyes.

>>60853809
Nice gay react image. Give ChatGPT my regards you fed.

But yes, you've once again pointed out the major security flaw of CPU mining. Many more resources can be recruited to attack the network than are currently utilized to defend the network.

>>60853809
>withholding access to mining ASICs affects only miners
And that's a good thing because every entity in the supply chain is interested in extracting value from it instead of not giving a fuck at all like in monero's case.

Also, bitcoin chuds mogged you with their asic model: even if you say that it's not related and asics actually undermine bitcoin security, there still wasn't a single case of anything resembling a 51% attack. Your excuse?
Devs could literally take the same model as in bitcoin, fix the limited supply issue as they did with tail emission, add privacy on top, and that's it - the perfect unbreakable privacy coin.

Also why the ASIC hate in the first place. Ricardo/Fluffypony supported ASICs for Monero from the start, he's obviously way more informed than a gook like Howard Chu, so it's not like all Monero has a hard on for hating ASICs.

>>60853817
>can't construct a valid rebuttal so I'll just say something else instead.


>>60853844
>because every entity in the supply chain

Supply chain is permissioned.

>>60853395
>Yes, that's why everyone who has ever invested doesn't own a house, doesn't own a car, and starved to death because they wouldn't spend money on food.
Strawman. You will spend less if some good you have appreciates in value.
>>60853395
>Generally, higher market cap means less volatility means a better medium of exchange.
But it also means that those who already hold xmr got a reason not to trade it currently unless they believe it was overvalued.
>effect's
I rest my case.

>>60853865
Every supply chain for every product in existence is permissioned you fuckwit

Besides, what prevents the government from pulling the classic "rule for thee but not for mee" trick - they could just start persecuting any large scale monero miners tracking them down by the power consumption, set up their own big farm in the meantime, and then just obliterate the network? The only real obstacle is other countries where mining is still allowed, but this doesn't depend on whether you use CPUs or ASICs.
So ASIC hatred is just stupid.

>>60853871
>Surely governments would prefer fucking over all of computing instead of fucking over some small niche products that only brainlets want

Why are people becoming parasocial with Monero? Instead of defending it, address the issues and improve it. Everything has flaws.

>>60853865
>>60853881
Your argument is retarded because even your life and freedom are permissioned.

>>60853883
Because the 'improvements' suggested here are mostly done by moonfags and would hurt monero as a currency. They want an investment, we want a usable currency.

>>60853881
Because centralized entities always have a harder time to fight decentralized entities and ASICs lead to centralization. Also in a world of RTX and locally run AI models it'll be hard to justify power draw as a means to invade homes in cases of people maybe mining one specific crypto currency.

>>60853882
Governments are currently fucking over Monero despite (or because of) your magical CPUs and you're busy whining about Bitcoin instead of fixing your own shit.

Let's ignore for a second that CPUs don't help decentralization (Qubic proving that it lets them grab a ton of the mining hardware). Even if CPUs made Monero more decentralized, the trilemma dictates that something has to be sacrificed in return. We have clear proof that security was the thing sacrificed. Whatever your feelings are, Monero can't survive against State actors with the level of security CPUs provide. PoS is a non starter. So you don't have many options besides ASICs.

>>60853883
Because for the first time, there's not consensus. Consumer grade hardware (cpu/gpu) model has failed. Some people still want to keep using this failed model (imho Monero dies if this continues). ASICs result in centralization around companies like Bitmain. We spent years pushing against PoS, which could have its own host of problems, but nobody would support that it seems. There's likely to be a fork and we likely don't have consensus on it. It'll be BCH/BTC again. History has shown you want to be on the chain that developers are on.

>>60853772
>>60853784
That's a lot of dip to slurp. We're gonna need a bigger straw

>>60853901
>Governments are currently fucking over Monero despite (or because of) your magical CPUs
By making massive losses, selfreported hashrates and a massive PR campaign. At worst we could just make monero2 which will be the same and quickly double the govts costs per day.
>and you're busy whining about Bitcoin instead of fixing your own shit.
I didn't mention BTC, I'm saying ASICs are shit
>Let's ignore for a second that CPUs don't help decentralization
People have CPUs. They don't have ASICs. People can easily affording CPUs, they can't easily afford ASICs.
>We have clear proof that security was the thing sacrificed.
There is no improved security with ASICs. At best you'll get sybil resistance but that only works if the attacker is late to the party which isn't the case with XMR by your own admission.

>>60853897
It's barely harder to look at electricity consumption hotspots, pick top 10, raid them, throw in jail, and make the whole process public. The rest will just lay low. Definitely easier than trying to fight dark market trading of ASICs imported illegally, because not only do you have to prohibit imports, you'll need to perform the same raids anyway, which won't be as effective because ASICs provide more hashrate per kW of energy, so small undetectable miners will still provide noticeable network security.
Local AI models are not even close in terms of energy consumption.

>>60853919
> People have CPUs. They don't have ASICs. People can easily affording CPUs, they can't easily afford ASICs
How's that working out for ya?

>>60853930
But if you ban ASICs you could also make sure that ASIC producers can't be profitable. So you make sure you squash the problem for good instead of teaching people how to simply use two cores.

>>60853933
Better than if we had 100 miners total and could easily be conquered by someone who will invest 1mil once and then 10k per day.

>>60853942
>Better than if we had 100 miners total and could easily be conquered by someone who will invest 1mil once and then 10k per day.

Well you don't and that's not likely to change. Your move. Do you accept being in checkmate? This is an opportunity that will not be offered if a government wants to destroy the chain.

>>60853942
Where are they getting all these extra ASICs from if miners hold the supply? You can rent a lot of CPU compute for that money. If Monero appreciators are holding all the ASICs, where is an attacker going to get them from?

Plus there are profitable ASICs that are cheaper per watt relative to Monero and cost less that a CPU rig required to mine Monero profitably

Stop coping man

>>60853942
Chips for ASICs are produced in the same country that makes the majority of the world's chips, including your CPU. ASIC manufacturers get the chips from that country and then build the ASICs locally. You can't ban a manufacturer in multiple other countries, and you can't ban chip manufacturing because good luck telling a mining ASIC apart from a drone FPV ASIC.

>>60853964
>Do you accept being in checkmate?
Oh yeah it just sucks soooooo much that our adversaries need to invest more for each sustained attack, still haven't reached their goals and us easily being able to make it harder on them

Sorry guys this pump was me selling extra cakes during today's bake sale. Worry not though, I'm going to spend all my monero so it's going back down really soon. Can't have the price increase like that. ;^)

>>60853772
Successful PoW coins ensure their security by cornering their mining niche. Bitcoin being the SHA-256 coin, Ethereum being the GPU coin. The insane fees were basically the requirement to keep Ethereum by far as the prime GPU coin with a high security budget. If Monero secured the CPU niche but was not greedy enough to exploit it. Was it more greedy with miner rewards, the hash rate would have been way higher. There would be more serious miners and Qubic would not be able to do what it's doing to anywhere near to this extent. Instead of shilling bakecel circular economy, Monero should have gone with a better Swiss bank account narrative. Monero dominating the darknet market would have been happening regardless, even with 1$ fees.

That or have custom ASIC or PoS.

>>60853905
MY very casual and maybe wrong observation is that the devs that are actually developing the good shit like FCMP++ are okay with PoS potentially.

>>60853930
Shit like that is way less plausible than to just restrict the import of ASICs and require license to possess them. Even in my dictatorial shithole they're not doing raids like that but very much do cuck what you can or cannot buy. The latter is more effective.

>>60853930
>ASICs imported illegally

lol customs can spot container loads of specialized hardware much more easily than packets of powder and governments can choke imports at the manufacturer/export level. Even if a few units slip through, they don't meaningfully restore lost network hashrate, unlike drugs, where small shipments still meet demand. In short, ASICs are industrial infrastructure, not contraband trinkets.

>small undetectable miners will still provide noticeable network security.

No. A handful of basement rigs add negligible security compared to industrial farms. A modern BTC ASIC farm can run tens of thousands of units, a hobbyist with two machines is a rounding error. If industrial mining is dismantled, the network's hashrate and thus its security plummets, no matter how many "undetectable" hobbyists remain. Security scales with aggregate hashrate, not with the number of participants.

>>60853983
What's effective about that when you just go to a darknet market and buy the same stuff? You'll need raids anyway, trading won't just magically stop because some shithead said so.

>>60853973
Bro, they could and can double spend at any moment they want. A double spend is basically chump change to them. If you don't see what's going on, you're too stupid for me to help you. A double spend has not occurred because they don't intend to harm Monero. Another more malicious actor and we might not be so lucky. Your cope is actually sad.

>>60853986
>Security scales with aggregate hashrate, not with the number of participants
Then you agree that there's no difference between ASICs and CPUs because taking down a large farm is very easy to do regardless.
>lol customs can spot container loads of specialized hardware much more easily
Oh damn, guess this is the dead end, a guy in the uniform refused to let me in :(
Too bad I can't declare ASICs as something else, take it apart before importing, or not go through customs. That would upset the guy in the uniform who already told me "no".

>>60853968
>Where are they getting all these extra ASICs from if miners hold the supply?
By companies that produce them for a profit.
>You can rent a lot of CPU compute for that money.
Yes and you can also get lots of ASICs that the vast majority of people interested in XMR can't afford out of the blue.
>If Monero appreciators are holding all the ASICs, where is an attacker going to get them from?
Why do you believe that governments, which are already attacking Monero according to you (>>60853901) will just not notice if we start using ASICs? They'll be the first to get the majority of ASICs and then we don't need to ask if a 51% attack is possible since they will possess way more and could just as easily take yours.
>Plus there are profitable ASICs that are cheaper per watt relative to Monero and cost less that a CPU rig required to mine Monero profitably
Nobody cares except for moonfags who'd just on any crypto that makes them a little money. There is an inherent value to XMR that isn't connected to its temporary monetary value and this inherent value is enough to be a sensible incentive.

>>60853972
Your argument only works if
1. The same companies (not countries) that produce the CPUs also produce the chips for the ASICs
2. Those companies wouldn't mind taking losses over their ASIC business by their hopefully profitable CPU business.
The former is possible, the latter is completely absurd, especially if you see how little screw ups can lead to complete financial failure (see Intel).

>>60853998
2 * 0.00 = 0
>because they don't intend to harm Monero.
Then they wouldn't need the publicity stunt, accurately report their hashrate, kept their APIs accessible etc.
>Another more malicious actor
That is willing to spend hundreds of thousands per day to have literally zero profit. Also qubit could easily reduce its hashrate to concentrate on its AI grift to secure the network.

>>60854012
>Then you agree that there's no difference between ASICs and CPUs because taking down a large farm is very easy to do regardless.

No, ASICs and CPUs aren't "the same." CPUs are everywhere, every laptop, server and workstation runs on them and governments can't police them without crippling the entire digital economy. ASICs are the opposite: single-purpose, power-hungry money printers from a handful of suppliers, shipped in pallets and burning megawatts in warehouses. Shutting down or intercepting ASIC farms is trivial compared to policing commodity CPUs and losing one big ASIC farm actually guts Bitcoin's hashrate in a way a lost CPU cluster never would.

Calling them "the same" is just lazy hand-waving.

>>60854037
My argument works as long as the government trying to ban ASIC manufacturing is not in the same country as the manufacturer, and there are multiple manufacturers across the globe to account for things like political pressure. Which is how bitcoin's ASIC manufacturing operates, so it's totally possible.

>>60854053
>Company that makes ASIC chips realizes it won't make a profit
>Magically it'll continue because it'd make a moonfag happy

>>60854037
What do you mean no profit? Their largest servers are in Russia and China 0.07 KWH and they are also selling their shitcoin. They are incredibly profitable.

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>>60854066
>Double spend
>All faith in the currency is lost
>Somehow they wanna profit off a dead coin
Please tell me how

>>60854037
>They'll be the first to get the majority of ASICs and then we don't need to ask if a 51% attack is possible since they will possess way more and could just as easily take yours.
Correct. ASICs are just as big of a threat as PoS. Anyone advocating a switch to either is gambling on
>state actors not possessing enough coins to attack the chain
>state actors not possessing enough hash power (or influence over it. Same difference) to attack the chain
It's an immediate game over if either of those are wrong. Getting rid of RandomX is the dumbest thing we could do at this point

>>60854050
It literally doesn't matter how available the hardware is. You consume a lot of energy, you get a friendly visit from the police, they see your farm and ask: "oi you got a loicense for dat?" Then you stutter trying to come up with a plausible explanation for a bunch of AMD epycs running in your garage, and next thing you know your farm is seized and you get a fine/jailtime. If you can come up with at least one plausible explanation for such a specific setup that cannot be easily refuted, I'll agree with you.

>>60854073
Sounds like you didn't read my post. I was simply saying Q is profitable and you aren't. Here, read it again.

>>60854066

>>60848766
Monero is what Satoshi imagined bitcoin as but even better. He wanted an anon p2p payment network. This is truly anon.