Is the Sharpal 162N any good for a first stone?
I want to get into Japanese whetstones but from what I understand you need at least two grits to sharpen a knife to a decent level, a holder + a way to level them and this seems to cover all of that in one single purchase
Does it work well with all types of steel? I want to get some fancy Japanese knives in the future

Your knives can always be sharp, if you never use them

>>21408681 (OP)
Diamonds are fine, but I have no idea about your OP pic. Go to the dollar store and get something for a few bucks and use it until you know what you're doing.
Zwillings Henckels sells a nice set of Japanese waterstones called the Twin Pro, but I would learn how to sharpen on cheap plates first.

>>21408681 (OP)
You only need a 1.5k grit stone if you dont let your knives get excessively dull. You can use a piece of wood or something and a moist paper towel as a holder.

Shapton 1.5k kuromaku is an incredible stone for kitchen knives. 40 bucks and it will last you like 20 years. It's also a splash and go, so it is very convenient. For double bevel knives you do not need to keep your stones precisely flat. The 1.5k dishes very slowly. You can just rub your stone on the sidewalk concrete to flatten it.

If you want a good diamond stone you just need to make sure it is a sintered diamond plate.

Whetstones work the absolute best with high carbon steels, which most jap knives are.

>>21408685
>Whetstones work the absolute best with high carbon steels, which most jap knives are.
I've noticed that but is there anything better for stainless? Specifically vg10.

Some people dislike 2 sided stones but I got a 1000/3000 grit suehiro with a holder for about $40 on ebay and figure that if I dish it I can pick up a cheap flattening stone.

>>21408685
What if you want to thin your knives because of years of sharpening?

What's the best value chef knife out there?
Apparently the fibrox has gone up a lot and so it's not really as worth it as it used to be

>>21408685
>Whetstones work the absolute best with high carbon steels, which most jap knives are.
What happens if you use stainless on them?
Also japan makes knives out of every kind of modern steel, muh carbon is a meme.

>>21408767
Mora.
Dirt cheap but very high quality steel.

>>21408798
I was ready to ignore you because I've never seen them mentioned before but these seem like great value
1/4 the price of a wusthof for 58 hrc steel

Just get a fillet knife sharpener, take 2 seconds, and reach 99.99% of the same sharpness as a stone. Passes every larp test stone users make up to prove how good stones are compared to an unsharpened butter knife

I have that exact thing and its works perfectly well with my blue steel knife. A drawback of diamond stones in general is that compared to whetstones it's much more difficult to feel the correct angle during strokes, i.e., whether the edge lies flat on the stone or not. I just use a cheap magnetic water level type angle finder. (The pyramid thing that comes with the stones is completely useless.)

buncha slack-jawed daffodils here asking which rock is the best rock to make spear sharper.

Use some power tools!

>>21409002
I got memed into buying this and honestly I don't think it makes my knives sharper.
Am I retarded?

>>21409019
You might be. I just sharpened my steak knives and a couple pocket knives. Even in my less than sober state I was able to make them sharp enough to shave my leg hairs (as a sharpness test). Is the steel of your knives any good? What grind is on them from the factory? What belts did you use? What angle did you set it to, and how many passes?

Most people shy away from using the really rough belts to delete the factory grind, or they read the manual suggesting the 25 degree angle is correct for kitchen knives when it really should be 15 degrees.

I actually was memeing a little because hard stones take a lot of practice to get really good at sharpening knives, plus it simply takes more time because of how fast an individual can do it even with skilled hands and a belt sander like that can sharpen 10 knives in the time 1 can be done on a stone.

>>21408798
>dirt cheap
The only chefs knife I see on their website is well over $200.

>>21408752
Yep. The shaptons will cut vg10, but its just kinda slow. I wouldn't go much crazier on the steel than vg10 if you do not want to use diamond.

>>21408757
Well, you'll have years to save up for a belt grinder or something. :D

>>21408788
Carbon is not a meme. High carbon has great edge stability compared to carbide steel, which means thinner edges, which means higher cutting performance.

>>21409002

Uncooled powered abrasives ruin your temper and lead to reduced edge retention. YES even if you are EXCEEDINGLy careful. No you are not good enough to prevent reduced edge retention.

>>21408823
Shit walmart knives, sure whatever, but a halfway decent knife? No.

>>21409064
>Uncooled powered abrasives ruin your temper and lead to reduced edge retention.
Thats technically correct but heating a steel to 120 degrees Fahrenheit doesn't even come close to affecting the temper so you're just wrong about using a powered sharpener.

>buying shitty knives or banging them against rocks

Literal retard thread. You don't need to sharpen good knives. Obsessive/compulsive fucks are by definition mentally unwell.

>>21409077
You are just wrong. Surface temper is a thing and uncooled abrasive gets the surface of steel very very hot. Even non powered abrasives can damage surface temper. Please read my attached image. It is really quite interesting.

You do not need a mini belt grinder. Just press harder on your whetstone lol.

>>21409082
Post your knife please.

>>21409092
source: someone on an internet forum read it in a book once

>>21408681 (OP)
You have /out/ and /k/ for your knife threads, keep your off topic shit off of our board.

>>21409092
>Surface temper is a thing and uncooled abrasive gets the surface of steel very very hot
What is "very very hot" then? Because you saying 1000 grit sandpaper getting a knife to 2000C for "split seconds" is moronic. I can touch the knife edge with the finger and not get burned. Its barely warm. Don't feed me some bullshit of at the atomic level it gets that hot for a planck time and that ruins the temper making it get dull the next time I slice some chilled brie.

You're wrong and stupid still. Manufacturers of razor blades do it to prolong the life of the grinding wheel because they're making a million blades a day.

>>21409126
Don't believe me. Reduce the edge temper on your knives. NMP.

>>21409131
Your understanding of how heat works is moronic. You are the lord of cope and do not know jack shit about steel lol.

>>21409126
Edge retention*

Ohhh nooooo actual testing and scientific data. Nooooo youre moron! Noooooo.

Pros used belt grinder because it is faster and it because it reduces edge retention. Reduced edge retention = more business.

>>21409143
Oh no, the worksharp made the knives so soft that they didn't even get to 90 bamboo cuts?
What the fuck kind of data is that?

>>21409169
You should educate yourself on CATRA testing. It's basically the golden standard for testing a knife's edge retention.

>>21409169
https://knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/CATRA%E2%80%99s-Report-_-GLOBALGLOBAL-small.pdf

>>21409136
Let us guess, you're a 2nd year engineering student thinking you're smarter than us because some autist speculated at the ATOMIC level it "ruins" the temper because any friction gets it to 2000 celcius.... You'll fit in with the rest of the retarded engineers out there.

>>21409143
Buddy, this chart proves the hand sharpened ones were at a more obtuse angle such as 20 or 25 degrees and the belt sharpened one was probably more accurate closer to 15 degrees. Its just more repeatable because you're not relying on the human hand to get the angle correct. Its why the sharper one lost edge faster; you can even replicate this yourself. 20 degree edges aren't as sharp, but they stay nearly as sharp for longer whereas a low angle knife like 10-15 degrees is much sharper, but won't hold an edge as long.

You didn't even consider that, did you?

>>21409224
Where does it say that they were sharpened at different angles before testing?

No shit edge angle has an impact on edge retention and sharpness.

>>21409224
You are beyond retarded if you think they did not match the edge angles.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/18/maximizing-edge-retention/

>>21409172
>>21409173
I wasn't commenting on the specific technique, but on the data in the table which is worthless without detailed explanation of the experiment design.

>>21409233
>Where does it say that they were sharpened at different angles before testing?
It doesn't. It doesn't even mention their testing methodology but a chart with a made up sharpness testing along with
>hand sharpened
>belt sharpened
I'm interpreting the data to come to that conclusion which any knifemaker can tell you thats what happened. Its not some bullshit of "it got 20 kelvin too hot due to friction"

In what fucking universe do you think its getting to 2000 degrees after 6 seconds against a 1000 grit sandpaper?

>>21409236
They use a catra testing machine... You know very little about this stuff.

>>21409238
Sounds like cope to me, and more extreme stupidity.

>>21409238
>>21409236
This >>21409173 link has methodology as well. Lets hear the cope about a company that developed an edge retention testing machine to quantify edge retention.

>>21409239
>tell us how the experiment was conducted
>bro I told you they use professional machines!!!
retard

>>21408767
I've had my Victorinox chef knife for 9 years now and I love it. No frills, cheap and does the job.

>>21409242
Those dickheads have 4 blank pages on their PDF with some industrial equipment in a lab. Pretty crazy they went through all that effort to emulate some dental floss on a kitchen scale.

>>21409131
Despite a gun barrel only being exposed to high temps for well less than a second per round the temperature change is still enough to draw carbon from the steel and weaken the barrel.
Momentary high temperatures can absolutely negatively impact metals.

>>21409242
I don't care about the CATRA methodology.
I want to know about the fucking bamboo study:
>who did the study
>what kind of knives were used
>what were they made out of
>how many were there
>how was the bamboo cut performed
>how exactly was the sharpening (both cases) performed and by who
>where is the actual data

>>21408681 (OP)
Do any anons have any experience with this type of system? I realize it might be memeshit, but I am absolutely worthless with a whetstone, and the pull-through sharpeners suck ass. I have decent German steel knives, and a bog-standard boning knife, and the pull-throughs are terrible.

>>21409259
>Momentary high temperatures can absolutely negatively impact metals.
Yes thats true, but to shoot out most barrels, you're talking 20,000+ rounds through it. Maybe 10,000 before noticeable degradation in accuracy outside of extreme precision applications.

You analogy is poor because theres also explosions of gun powder and something greater than a friction-fit causing contact. Its more of an interference fit. You can see this yourself: take any gun you own, take the correct cartridge for it and try to stick it in the muzzle. The bullet simply will not go into the barrel. Its also 2 dissimilar metals of copper and steel plus some light corrosion of the burnt powder.

>>21408681 (OP)
100 million women in China use a 40 year old whetstone that looks like a horseshoe to sharpen a Toys R Us knife until it could cut an atom on half. stop blaming your tools on your failures. buy a whetstone and use it.

>>21409264
looks like some novelty shit thats overpriced, but you do you

>>21409268
Copper isn't as hard as steel, under ideal circumstances it wouldn't do anything to steel.
The only reason it can is because the steel is weakened by heat.

>>21409282
>Copper isn't as hard as steel
And vegetables aren't as hard as bamboo, neither is meat, cheese, or plastic wrappers as I slice them open.

Go ahead and keep going on about the planck time of quantum heat ruins the temper on a belt or machine sharpened knife at the factory.
>coolant
You've already defeated your own point; if the factory is using a grinding stone that can heat some of the metal atoms to 2000 degrees for a time that is immesurably small, then what makes you think some dirty water flowing on the steel could possibly make any difference at all?

>>21409251
We are not discussing sharpness. We are talking about edge retention.

>>21409263
Catra came to the exact same conclusion.

>>21409243
Retard cope.

>>21409298
>We are talking about edge retention.
For which to have a logical conclusion after an initial theory, you have to test... wait for it...

>sharpness.

>>21409281
>looks like some novelty shit
Sorry, but I'm asking for anons with experience.

>>21409264
from what ive gathered, they work just fine and are pretty fool proof. however the cheap ones wear out fast but I think the expensive ones last long enough.

>>21409282
You're thinking about the macroscopic effects of hardness. Yes steel is harder than copper. But if you take a copper anvil and smash it in to a steel die repeatedly even under ideal circumstances the steel will wear out from effects totally unrelated to individual material properties like heat, speed, angle, microscopic debris, secondary compounds, acidity, etc.

I work in manufacturing and we use hard steel dies on soft steel anvils. The dies and knives will always wear out, even the cooled ones where the anvil and knife are kept at like 40 degrees. There are too many factors to correct for that are beyond normal comprehension and care.

>>21409307
Hilariously stupid.

I got a whetstone from like 5 years ago but haven't had any success in using it, no idea the grits on both sides, maybe that's part of the issue. How do I get my Walmart shitknives razor sharp for tomatoes and bell peppers? I understand there is a certain angle that needs to be maintained but all the YouTube videos I've found on the subject are guys just babbling for 10 minutes about the history of sharpening to get their ad revenue.

>>21408684
>and get something for a few bucks
Those "stones" are utter crap, literally grains of beach sand bonded with cement or some other stuff. Completely unusable. It is better to take a bit of sand paper and glue it to a flat surface like a piece of glass or a piece of wood and use that.

>>21408767
>What's the best value chef knife out there?
The IKEA 365+ series is pretty good.

>>21409456
I was the same, this vid helped me a lot
https://youtu.be/0fxL8v2dMho

>>21409019
>I don't think it makes my knives sharper.
>Am I retarded?
You probably havent reached the apex of the bevel because the factory angle was too high and/or your angle was too low and/or the blade was too thick behind the shoulders of the bevel. The first edge is always the most diffficult, thats the tragedy of the art of sharpening and has caused many newbies to throw in the towel.

>>21409456
the sharpening video playlist by Jon Broida from Japanese Knife Imports. They are considered the gold standard of knife sharpening tutorials even by the super nerds on the KKF kitchen knife forums.

Sharpening is something that takes TIME you fucking impatient zoomers, that’s why you’re all incapable of honing anything, let alone an edge

>>21409550
I dunno lil nephew, zoomers seem to be pretty good at edging since they're always talking about it.

>>21409550
At first, but once you get a little better it should only take a couple minutes.

It's crazy how fast this one youtuber turned an entire hobby on its head overnight. If you're really young this is actually a taste of what the "moneyballing" of cooking in the late 00's/early 10's was like. Decades-old cooking traditions being shattered weekly by ATK, Kenji and random foodie blogs

>>21409092
>Please read my attached image.
>random unintelligible gibberish.jpg

>>21409278
Yeah I can a confirm
I was helping my grandmother with a banquet and she asked me if she wanted to sharpen the knife when I was cutting the roast meats
She pulls out a tiny block like that and starts scraping the knife on it without any of the technique I had watched people use on the internet
Also the knife's profile has changed from a flat edge to almost a semi-circle probably after decades of sharpening

>mogs other knife sharpeners
why do people with hundred dollar knives (they don't use) insist you use anything else?

>>21409059
I think he's talking about Frosts Mora

Don't people say you shouldn't put knives, even those with synthetic handles, in the dishwasher because it'll fuck up the heat treatment?
Also do any of the master knife craftsmen, whether they be in the USA or Japan, sharpen their knives on belt sanders?

>>21409789
the heat of a dishwasher is not going to do shit to your hardened steel knife. you shouldn't put it in the dishwasher because it's going to get knocked around and stay wet for too long.

>>21409458
>crap
Some are, others aren't. Anything brand name made in China is also made off-brand for way less. Same factory.

Are there any western made knives that are actually any good? I've heard of Kramer but he's a bit too high end for me

>>21409626
brainrot, fuck off

>>21409626
I just ordered the meme plate because of this guy and this thread

>>21409857
Also I sincerely hope it doesn't come out later that he's a paid shill because that was 3 hours of my pay gone

>>21409862
He is a paid shill now, but he ostensibly wasn't when he made his first videos about the stone. Anecdotally it seems like these stones work great and the people spending years learning to use master wet ceramic stones are mostly wasting their time

how do I get things meme sharp? I sharpened my knife with an arkansas stone I found in a toolbox and it was sharp enough to cut through paper with ease, but I could never get it to the point where I could shave hair with it.

>>21410026
Depends on the bevel. Are you using Arkansas soft, hard, or black?
Arkansas soft won't get there. Black is surgical sharp. Regular everyday cardboard can be used to strop to shaving sharp, after sharpening with your stone.

>>21410042
I had a coarse green stone and a hard white one. I have no idea what they actually were. I think they came with some chisels or something.

>>21410026
You need to set your bevel well. Form an even burr along the entire edge, remove it then use very light pressure and a lot of water to refine the edge. Hard arks are tough to sharp sell on because they're such hard stones. Very slow and very unforgiving to bad technique.

Woth good technique you can get shaving sharp off a 1.5k stone with around a 15 degree bevel.

>>21410074
how do you get the burr off? switching sides just flips it around.

>>21410101
You can do the cheat method and gently pull the edge through a piece of wood like 3 times.

If you use a very slightly steeper angle and just keep swapping sides it will come off. Start at the heel and try to catch the burr with that initial point of contact.

Do I need a strop? I bought the OP stone but not sure what else I need

>>21410151
No. A strop is 100% not necessary for sharpening a knife. A honing rod will help you if you got a softer steel knife.

>>21410151
No. And its audiophile levels of technically accurate shit like making sure the smaller than 1 nano meter piece of metal isn't folded over for maximum sharpness. As if chopping vegetables you'd ever fucking notice.