You know what the real problem with the superhero genre is? The fact we live in a world that is demonstrably not worth saving. Look at a history book or turn on the news, and I dare you to justify not letting it all burn.

I want to start with you OP. I want to kill you.

>>149108235 (OP)
Fuck off Demiurge

>>149108235 (OP)
He lost to his own ideals and cried like a bitch over it.

>>149108265
Except Superman used his might to make himself right. Just because bro didn't want to die like most people, it didn't make him wrong. It's all just bitching from an old guy about the new shit anyway.

>>149108235 (OP)
what's the difference between this nigga and john constantine

>>149108235 (OP)
You mean killing babies and stuff? That’s weird. You’re weird.

3 strikes and you're out

>>149108293
Using strength to ensure justice will always be fundamentally different from using strength to establish dominion. "Might makes right" fags will never understand this.

We live in a world where the overwhelming majority of people will never spend even a minute in the city of Manchester. It's not that bad,, really.

>>149108235 (OP)

I will never understand how anyone on fucking 4chan of all places can even begin to dispute that the world is a terrible place. Contrarianism at its finest.

>>149108414
>Contrarianism at its finest.

Fuck you no it isn't.

>>149108235 (OP)
Great Man history is just data points for the LLM that will generate the list of people who need to die for general peace.

>>149108235 (OP)
leave your house and touch some grass instead of talking to these sad incels all day, and your countenance will improve

>>149108293
Superman showed the ugly side of Black's philosophy and Black couldn't do anything to stop him. Then Superman showed he didn't kill Black's team. Then he rejected Black's ideals and the entire world watched. Black was beaten physically and mentally. It's the most humiliating kind of defeat for everyone to see.

>>149108235 (OP)
You're a retard. The 90s were 30 years ago. Go be an edgelord somewhere else.

>>149108235 (OP)
I said the exact same shit

>>149108308
Cooler

>>149108660
Anon. Turn on the news.

>>149108661
And you were told to stop being an edgelord because we're not allowed to acknowledge that everything is shit. It's fucking tiring.

And Superman is a boy scout that belongs in the 40s but this will be called an edgy opinion

>>149108677
Manchester did what batman refused to do or I guess the us justice system refused to do

>>149108682
Clark's problem is that he's a naive, delusional hick. Dude just cannot accept that he's wasting his time trying to "inspire" humanity to be better. We aren't capable of being better. Tens of millennia have proven this time and again.

>>149108414
>the world is a terrible place
Compared to what?

>>149108703
>We aren't capable of being better. Tens of millennia have proven this time and again.

Learn history. We stopped throwing people to lions for entertainment, reduced infant and child mortality, reduced extreme poverty from 90% to nothingness, improved living standards, and gave people more rights than they ever had.

And by "we" I mean mostly the West, which had the superior inspiring figure in the form of Christ.

>>149108235 (OP)

>>149108367
>>149108656
The problem is that without power, justice is worthless, and therefore, the most powerful do justice.
And Superman doesn't work for any government, so he doesn't do justice either; he only imposes his own will.
In the end, Manchester wins, but only because his rival was Superman (the most powerful guy in the world who ignores justice when he disagrees).

>>149108736
>And Superman doesn't work for any government, so he doesn't do justice either; he only imposes his own will.
>your individual actions don't determine if they are just or not, only if they have the government's approval
Fallacy

>>149108729
But only stupid people are breeding. The cretins cloning and feeding.

>>149108729
>and gave people more rights than they ever had.
Anon, you know slavery still exists, right? And that slavery is being enforced by American companies? America, the country that supposedly defends the rights of the world.

>>149108235 (OP)
Do you know who owns all the news networks you watch, anon?
Oy vey...

>>149108748
>Fallacy
So who defines justice? God? Just any guy? A guy who wears underwear over his pants?
The government is fair, and whether we like it or not, the majority voted for it.

>>149108792
>Anon, you know slavery still exists, right?
Outside the West, yes.

>And that slavery is being enforced by American companies?
Foreign governments enforce slavery, companies take advantage of it.

>no, I mean worker explo-
You got yourself a useless degree to feel like an elite. Your financial situation would be much better if you pursued trade.

>>149108235 (OP)
The problem isn't the discussion itself or the debate about who's right.
The problem with this story is literally "one guy with power who imposes his own justice vs. another guy with power who imposes his own justice."
This discussion would be appropriate for Batman or Chief Gordon.
Superman was always going to lose, because no matter who won, Manchester would be right in the end.

>>149108812
>so who defines justice
Justice, is. Simple as.
>the majority voted for it
The vote of the majority is not inherently more fair or just. All democratic governments structure themselves with this fact in mind.

>>149108812
Injustice is doing to people what you wouldn't to be done to you.
And Superman operates within worldwide established human rights if you want to discuss laws supported by the majority of people.

>>149108845
>Justice, is. Simple as.

>>149108235 (OP)
>we live in a world that is demonstrably not worth saving
if you mean the western world sure
just don't include us

>>149108859
>Injustice is doing to people what you wouldn't to be done to you.
Anon, that's ridiculous. There are people who believe in the law of the strongest, in that case it would be fine for them to go around hitting people at random because it wouldn't be unfair to them.

>>149108869
It's really not that hard of a concept. Every single attempt to go something like
>oh but your sense of justice without critical reflection can misguide you into being unjust
>oh but the rules of justice are tenuous at best and ultimately hollow with all the exceptions you have to make
>oh but not caring about being any hurdles or hypocrisies towards being fair creates tunnel vision and unjust things
>oh but it's predicated on a fundamental rule of might that makes it so any sense of justice exists on the same coin
like nah, justice is justice. True justice is pretty easy to identify and pursue while keeping fair in all circumstances, even when trying to keep fair would itself be unjust. It's not that hard of an issue to navigate.

It's something you only worry about because you're a coward, simple as. You're afraid of what others will do in the name of false justice, and your moral failings means you aren't able to see/pursue true justice, which would absolve that fear. Don't worry though, Superman will save you.

>>149108235 (OP)
If you really thought the world wasn’t worth saving you’d be out there trying to blow it up.

>Morality is subjective
Morality comes from the natural human function of empathy, something that every social animal develops as a necessity to function. While the specifics of what constitutes immoral and moral behavior can vary depending on culture, there is still a core intrinsic trait in every functional human to help the human organism prosper and grow.

Every culture in human history, no matter how primitive or depraved, has some sense of morality, however esoteric or non-functional it might be. Even creatures like primates, dogs and cats have some very basic moral structure to their society.

To deny the existence of objective morality is to deny observable reality in human psychology and functioning. To argue what constitutes morality and immorality, and what distinctions are valuable or arbitrary, is the more viable intellectual practice.

While an alternative argument could be made on whether or not this thesis holds water and whether morality truly is subjective or not, that debate would be purely academic. From a functional perspective, doing things widely considered immoral would lead to social, psychological and even physical consequences that make it untenable in the long term.

>>149108732
people gave their lives for Hitler, people are giving their lives for Putin
what exactly is her point

>>149108969
>what exactly is her point
You know what her point is, you're just running away from it because you're a coward.

>>149108985
Running away from what? Again she doesn't make a point. "Some people died for a cause therefore something"

Post-Modernism is what George Orwell was talking about when he said some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals can believe them.

>>149108996
The context of the clip is that she's an Iranian refugee who just escaped a totalitarian theocracy, and despite how hard the regime tried to propagandize her and millions of others into compliance they still knew what was happening was wrong and unjust, and many fought and died to push back against it or escape from it.

To put it simply, the message is "freedom and justice are so precious that they're worth fighting and dying for. The idea that life is meaningless is a pretentious copout that sounds intellectual and edgy but holds absolutely no weight to real people in the real world."

If life is so precious those people would've held onto their lives with every fiber in their body instead of throwing them away for 'freedom'
Its better to die like a lion than live like a slave has an inherent undertone that life is a void and only has meaning if the void is filled. Life itself has no meaning

>>149108942
>True justice is pretty easy to identify and pursue while keeping fair in all circumstances
>even when trying to keep fair would itself be unjust.
It's the stupidest thing I've ever read.

>>149109032
Impressive mental gymnastics but you just proved the exact opposite. Your logic shows that life has inherent value and meaning and only loses it when tyrants take active measures to suppress it.

>>149108967
>natural human function of empathy
>this braindead nigga thinks humans have empathy

>>149108967
>To deny the existence of objective morality is to deny observable reality in human psychology and functioning.
and what is objective morality?

>>149108235 (OP)
The whole point was that he wasn't right. We had this thread a couple months ago.
>Might makes right!
>okay I'll use my might and
>NO NO NO! YOU CAN'T DO THAT! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AND NOT DO THAT!! DON'T KILL ME!!

>>149109050
Because you can't see true justice. It's not hard to navigate any pitfalls, failings, contradictions, and hypocrisies when you genuinely do care about other people and seek to do better.

>>149109023
>they still knew what was happening was wrong and unjust, and many fought and died to push back against it or escape from it.
And millions more stayed because they truly believe it's the right and just thing to do.
Besides, since when is running away the right thing to do? Staying and fighting for what's just and right is the right thing to do.

>>149109072
Do unto others as you'd have done to you.

>>149109099
>And millions more stayed because they truly believe it's the right and just thing to do.
Do you believe your government is just and right? Or do you just believe it isn't evil enough that it should be dismantled? Is the way you want to live so impaired that you feel like you're imprisoned?

This story mischaracterizes Superman, hypocritically criticizes another series from the label and is just bad. Stormwatch's jingoistic approach is a parody of superheroes, even if the series finds itself making mayhem cool. I just don't like this story, the only good thing is the art. And also the crude caricature of a black man.

>>149108235 (OP)
>Manchester only kills terrorists who harm innocent people.
>Superman doesn't like him because... yolo.
>Superman tries to kill Manchester because he doesn't like him killing terrorists.

Is Superman a friend of terrorists?

>>149109124
>Do you believe your government is just and right?
Yes.
>Or do you just believe it isn't evil enough that it should be dismantled?
No.
>Is the way you want to live so impaired that you feel like you're imprisoned?
No.

Do you want to ask me more stupid questions?

>>149109169
>>Do you believe your government is just and right?
>Yes.

But you don't believe in objective morality. How can they be just or right if it doesn't matter?

I hate philosphy and philosophists, these people will take the most obvious shit and twist it around into something that will someday be used by a retarded to justify killing millions of people.

>>149109191
>But you don't believe in objective morality
anon, objectively speaking we should die because North Koreans hate our way of life.
>How can they be just or right if it doesn't matter?
The law is the law, that's it, there is no more and there is no less.

>>149109222
>anon, objectively speaking we should die because North Koreans hate our way of life.
Nigga I ain't gonna talk to you if you come at me with this schzio shit.

>>149108736
You don't understand, probably because you're dumb.
Yes, might is what determines who gets to exert their influence, but that's not what Black and Superman are arguing.
Black is arguing that might is morality, that the strongest should do whatever they want with no compunction or restraint. Superman is arguing that those with that level of power should show restraint and responsibility. That they're morally obligated to NOT be petty tyrants

>>149109155
He's a midwestern hick who was raised by naive idealists.

>>149108831
Anon read the amendments sometime.
Slavery is not prohibited in the US for the incarcerated.
The poor fucks being "paid" 25 cents an hour to throw themselves at wildfires are not employees.

>>149109231
Congratulations, you have shown that talking about objective morality is stupid, because the concept of objective morality is stupid in itself.

>>149109239
>That they're morally obligated to NOT be petty tyrants
And what exactly is enforcing that? There's nothing keeping those in power in check. They always eventually figure out that they can do whatever the hell they want and nobody stops them. The so-called checks and balances are fake. Hell, the fat that we need checks and balances at all speaks to the inherent problem of the human psyche that nobody ever wants to acknowledge.

>>149108967
>Reality exists as a social concept for all humans
>Therefore there is an objectively true moral code or moral status
You're retarded and have confused morality objectively being a concept for humans and morality itself being objective.
Only a delusional idiot would actually believe that actions or intentions have an inherent physical moral status the way objects have mass.

>>149109254
You didn't say anything you retard.

>Morality comes from the natural human function of empathy. Some cultures disagree on how to best express this or not, and thus there are different moral philosophies, but a core objective instinct to be moral exists.
>North Korea wants us all to die!!! You're stupid!!!

That's not even true, btw. North Korea is a shithole but the vast majority of people there just want to live their lives peacefully and be left alone. Not that it even fucking matters because one culture warping or disregarding morality doesn't mean there's no morality.

You've lost the plot, nigga. You can't even keep your own strawman arguments straight.

>>149109023
>The context of the clip is that she's an Iranian refugee who just escaped a totalitarian theocracy, and despite how hard the regime tried to propagandize her and millions of others into compliance they still knew what was happening was wrong and unjust, and many fought and died to push back against it or escape from it.
He fell for the (((American))) propaganda, everyone point and laugh.

>>149109112
Masochists exist. Retard.

>>149109283
and?

>>149109260
>Superman is arguing morality and saying the strong should show restraint
>DURR BUT WHAT'S FORCING THEM TO!?
Nothing you goddamned moron, that's the point.
Does your dumb ass not understand the difference between can and should?

>>149109239
>Superman is arguing that those with that level of power should show restraint and responsibility. That they're morally obligated to NOT be petty tyrants
But Superman is a petty tyrant. Basically, he'll oppose any government or law if he doesn't like it and will ultimately do whatever he wants.
Superman is the problem in this discussion. He's a god and will ultimately do whatever he wants, and no one can stop him (except Batman).
This story would be more appropriate for someone like Chief Gordon, someone who has power but believes in justice (and he is not a god who can oppose everything)

>>149109277
>A core objective instinct to be moral exists
Holy shit anon that's not what the term "objective morality" means.
You're a idiot.

>>149109302
The story would be meaningless starring Gordon because Gordon has no power
You can't make an argument about power without restraint vs power with restraint if your character has no power
I swear you kids have a third grade reading level

>>149109277
>North Korea is a shithole but the vast majority of people there just want to live their lives peacefully and be left alone.
They have declared their hatred of America several times and have called for its extermination and the death of its inhabitants; for them, this is moral and correct.

>>149109301
>the point is that the strong have literally no incentive whatsoever to show restraint other than "Pretty please don't rape me I'll feel bad uwu!"
...

>the difference between can and should
The vast, and I do mean VAST majority of the human population sees absolutely zero difference between the two.

The real problem with the Superhero Genre is that's its gay, oversaturated and so formulaic that even the subversions are overdone
It also killed the American comics industry and now almost all Americans comics are superheros or those gayass graphic novels you find at the scholastic book fair
Bone is pretty good though

>>149109306
Then what does it mean?

>>149109326
>Most people make no distinction between can and should!
You're outing yourself as a psychopath

>>149109328
>A setting that combines literally every type of fantasy genre where literally anything can happen is "boring and overdone"
Skull issue.

>>149109084
>his enemy only winning upon embracing his philosophy debunks him actually

>>149109313
>You can't make an argument about power without restraint vs power with restraint if your character has no power
Gordon has the power to do whatever he wants with Gotham City. He could order the killing of all the criminals and erase the evidence, but he doesn't do it because he believes in law and justice.

>>149109331
"Objective morality" refers to the idea that there is an iron-clad moral code that exists outside of human perception, that when someone says "it's wrong to kill" they're not expressing a belief or a feeling or a law, they're stating a fact in the same way one might say "two plus two is four" or "this rock weighs 5 pounds."

No one questions that morality exists as a concept you stooge

>>149109352
Exactly. The easiest way to refute a moral relativist is to kill them.

>>149109353
>Gordon has power!
You're retarded.

>>149109334
You're outing yourself as a literal alien who has only been on this planet for like a month at best.

>>149109364
Black wasn't a moral relativist and the story has literally nothing to do with moral nihilism or relativism.
Black believed might makes right, right up until he wasn't the mightiest.

>>149109366
He could have ordered the execution of any criminal, he could have killed the Joker at any time, but he doesn't.

>>149109357
Yes, and because of the way human empathy works, there are a few standards no reasonable person can disagree with or deny without either being neurologically dysfunctional or operating under heavy cognitive dissonance.

>>149109373
>Everyone else just does things on impulse because they can, too, right?
>... right?
Seek mental help.

>>149109375
>Black believed might makes right, right up until he wasn't the mightiest.
and Superman imposed his right because he is the most powerful.

>>149109389
>There are standards most people can agree on
Ok? That's not what objectivity is. Words have meanings.

>>149109396
>>149109382
It's honestly incredible how fucking stupid people on this site can be
I pray you're just AI responses because people shouldn't be this oblivious

>>149109389
>human
>empathy

>>149108265
Yeah, it's a pretty simple and straightforward story. It's pretty retarded that people don't get it
>but Supes used might makes right to enforce his own morals
No, Supes did nothing to enforce his own system. He just played by Black's. All Supes did was show to him that he wasn't the strongest guy in the room, and the instant that happened, he was begging for a more fair and just set of rules. To not get smeared on the pavement because the mightiest guy felt like it. It's an innately flawed system that goes against all the trusts and balances that define us as social creatures.

>>149108820
Morality is an evolved trait to filter out those who prioritize themselves over the pack/tribe.

>This thread

>>149109445
This meme doesn't have the punch you think it does. I unironically fully expect everyone I interact with to be looking for an excuse to murder me.

>>149109414
>when you no longer have any arguments and you start insulting.

>Supes did nothing to enforce his own system.
He did, he pretended to kill others just to prove he was right.
It would have made more sense if a more powerful villain had appeared and Superman had to save them.

>>149108820
It's funny how everyone who claims morality is objective, also claim that this universally ordained correct order of things is something they know for some reason, and that it always seems to map exactly to their opinions. Almost as if moral objectivists are just little bitches too pussy to stand up for their own beliefs, and they need a god to back them up and justify all the repugnant shit they do.

>>149109399
>That's not what objectivity is.
Something clearly exists, and it exists for a reason. Therefore it's objective reality.

It's like saying "pain" doesn't exist because the perception of it and tolerance for it can vary depending on the person. You can wax philosophical about it all you want, but if I slap you in the face hard enough, it's gonna hurt. Because pain is an evolutionary tool to keep you out of dangerous situations.

Objective morality exists. It amounts to "you should treat others the way you want to be treated." The fact that only humans can understand and articulate it doesn't mean it isn't real.

It's like saying sex "doesn't exist" because it's a "social construct." Then you spend 5000 paragraphs trying to dance around the fact that penises and vaginas exist.

>>149108942
>Right is just whatever I feel like at any given moment
I'd insult you, but that's ultimately how all of humanity (except me) operates.

>>149108235 (OP)
Black was a reductionist Strawman. Jenny was anything but a moral relativist, she didn't dabble in that sort of thing, she was about action. One thing about Stormwatch is that despite the overcomplicated powers, casualties were real, unlike the mainstream universe where there's a parallax event every 10 years and every other time the city is miroculously evacuated. This kind of thing doesn't happen in Stormwatch and it's something that the story avoids completely. Even Kirkman parodied this in Dinosaur arc

>>149109491
>"you should treat others the way you want to be treated."
Literally nobody EVER does that. And when they try, it invariably fails.

>>149109509
This is some hardcore cope and projection.

>>149109486
Who are you quoting

>>149109491
>Morality objectively exists
Yes. There is objectively a concept called morality. No one has ever argued otherwise. That isn't what "objective morality" refers to. I've already explained your misunderstanding to you. Stop being so retarded.

>>149109491
>You can wax philosophical about it all you want, but if I slap you in the face hard enough, it's gonna hurt.
anon, there are people who can't feel pain.

>>149109444
So why are the richest, most powerful people everywhere psychopathic pedophiles?

>>149109509
This is extremely true.

>>149109523
Not an argument.

>>149109520
>>149109491
Let me try putting this so simply even a dipshit like you can understand.

Film criticism objectively exists. There are many examples of film criticism. Film criticism is objectively a thing.
That does not mean the content of the criticisms is or can be objective.

Do you fucking get it yet?

>>149109516
Why are "people" like you always so desperate to pretend the world is some kind of perfect candyland where everyone is nice to each other just because? Delusional cunt.

>>149109526
Because if we let them get away with all their heinous crimes, they'll give us a bunch of their money. Trickle down, baby!

>>149109539
If it is an argument, because objectively pain does not exist for them.

>>149109544
The world certainly isn't fair but you have to be an extreme level of jaded to think that no one even tries to follow the golden rule.
Stop surrounding yourself with assholes and imagining that's the world

you guys sure are talking everything but comics and cartoons

>>149109539
Correct, that isn't an argument. It's a counterexample.

>>149109556
>I can't feel pain, therefore pain doesn't exist so nobody can feel pain.

>>149109582
>Pain is objective because pain exists as a concept
He did it again

>>149109568
yeah I should probably stop. It's an interesting argument to me but it's veering way off topic and I'm not really getting anywhere with this guy.

Superman is cool. Now I'm leaving the thread.

>>149109509
>And when they try, it invariably fails.
Especially around hoodrats.

>>149109541
It looks like he doesn't get it
Because he's stupid, you see

>>149109594
I like Parasite when he looks more monster freakish and prefer Mongul to Darkseid, I've said my piece and will leave everyone else to their mastubatory misery babble.

>>149108729
>which had the superior inspiring figure in the form of Christ.

If we pretend all the wealth and prosperity didn’t directly come from ignoring Christ’s teachings and stealing wealth from colonised lands from the other side of the globe.

>>149109565
>extreme level of jaded
No seriously, what planet are you from? Cause you sure as hell ain't from Earth.

>>149108729
No one ever actually threw Christians to the lions, that's a myth
Medical science has its origins in the middle east
Extreme poverty is not "nothingness," it's still pretty severe and widespread and is growing even in the wealthiest countries. Parts of the US are indistinguishable from the poorest nations.
The concept of democracy did not begin in the west
Everything you know is a lie

>>149109658
Stop surrounding yourself with assholes and imagining that's the world.

>>149109676
Bit difficult when said assholes are your family and you happen to live in a bad area with hood rats a plenty.

>>149109676
>"Just leave the planet, duh!"
You are literally too stupid to comprehend that humans are inherently evil. Or maybe you're just in desperate denial. Either way is pathetic.

>>149108812
>The government is fair
Lol, lmao
>the majority voted for it
I don't know whether or not you're in the US, but there's this massive, already opened can of worms regarding urban vs. rural over here. Tldr: due to where people tend to group themselves, and how elections are decided, you've got regions of the country that are governed by people who have completely different values and ways of life than them.

>>149109688
Fair enough, but being surrounded by assholes is a different thing than no one trying to follow the golden rule.
>>149109693
>inherently evil
What a silly concept filled with terrible assumptions.

>>149109708
>American representation is broken!
Sure is, first-past-the-post sucks and gerrymandering is out of control.
That's not an argument against the concept of representative democracy.

>>149109715
>What a silly concept filled with terrible assumptions.
Ah yes, the silly assumptions of... demonstrable evidence and historical precedent.

>>149109582
How can they know the pain exists if they've never felt it? Saying "it hurts" means nothing to them.

>>149109708
>but there's this massive, already opened can of worms regarding urban vs. rural over here.
What's the difference? The Amish voted for Trump.

>>149109740
>There is historical precedent that evil is objective and all humans meet that objective standard
Moron

>>149109817
There is historical precedent that humans have spent the majority of our existence devising ways to make each other suffer. Paradoxically, most people would declare such a thing pretty fucking evil. Everything we know about ourselves indicates that we're a species of psychotic, malicious apes.

>>149109835
>Humans are inherently psychotic and malicious
The former is impossible by definition and the latter I disagree with
Either way that's not the same as being "inherently evil," as if that were actually a thing.
Also that's not what paradoxically means.
You can just say you don't like people, you don't need to make these grand sweeping declarations.

This comic is a great test for someone's media literacy.

The reason Superman doesn't kill is because he doesn't need to. He's powerful enough that he can always find another way. It's the difference between killing an enemy on a battlefield or executing them after they've surrendered.

The Elite were evil because they, like Superman, were powerful enough to subdue enemies without lethal force, and chose lethal force anyone because they found it easier and it allowed them to exert undue power and influence on the world.

It's a universal allegory for bullying and misuse of power. It's something you can apply to tyrannical police states and warmongers.That's why the original comic was named after an anti-war song.

You can agree with the morality or not, but if you read the comic or watched the movie and thought "but killing bad people is a good thing!" you completely missed the point.

The point is you don't have to be a cunt, so don't be one.

>>149110162
Shoutout to the Lotus Eaters, Sargon's shitty sloptube channel, for having the worst take on Superman vs The Elite of all time. Also for praising Gay for Justice for its "complex morality." Carl, man, get better stooges.

>>149108235 (OP)
Manchester Blacked

>>149108235 (OP)
That wasn't his argument

>>149109301
Martha looks so fucking hot man, i want her to shout my name as i go in-and-out with her

>>149110162
>He's powerful enough that he can always find another way.
What other way? He let the terrorists do whatever they wanted.

>>149110388
If only there were some type of building or institution where we could detain people who do bad things after we subdue them. A place where they could be "imprisoned" for long periods of time. Maybe after a trial by a jury of their peers that decides on an appropriate length of time based on the severity of their crimes. A place where we could warehouse these bad people instead of having to choose between letting them back into society or brutally executing them on the spot. Maybe we could have different levels of imprisonment based on what crimes they've been proven to have committed, and perhaps some of the inmates could even be rehabilitated.

But as far as I know, there's no such correctional institution that exists.

The issue with Superman's argument
of "strong help weak" is it turns into condescending dogshit when applied IRL.
We'll keep a quadriplegic alive and suffering entirely to feel good about ourselves while the dude is like, just confined to a room and left there to just think into the void because we're too pussy to even talk about the notion of assisted death.
You'll notice a lot of the most morally nihilistic people are in some way shape or form weak or disabled people because they have to deal with the dark side of everyone else acting like "good moral people", hell our entire system around the intellectually disabled is built on the idea they can't pick up on showering them in meaningless validations and assuming they can't pick up that we're being patronizing as hell while we keep them from doing all the stuff we consider 'what life has to offer' like interesting jobs, raising a family, or even just recreational activities like sports.
That's the American Way.

>>149108235 (OP)
The idea is dumb if they mean the Millar authority sense. Killing world leaders you dont like does not, in fact, help the people in those countries. It creates power vacuums and resets their infrastructure. The new people in charge are usually corrupt yes men to foreign powers, and thats if a real new power ever comes in at all.

>>149110463
Idk what you're even on about anymore, dude. If someone's quality of life would be bad enough after a life-saving surgery we usually just them die. Short of that we try to help them live the best life they can with what they have. That's why we have prosthetic limbs, disability nurses, etc.

But I have no fucking clue how that relates back to Superman, the content of this story, or the superhero genre in general. If you're just trying to turn this into some kind of anti-natalist argument you've gotten WAY off track.

>>149110448
Well broadly, they don't. What we have instead are for-profit institutions whose function boils down to federally funded slavery.

But that's a different discussion entirely.

>>149110448
Except it's basically confirmed now that the US prison system is just a giant fucked up torture system where we treat them like animals, use them for slave labor, throw them out into a vastly changed world we didn't prepare them for and make sure they wear a badge of stigma keeping them from good jobs.
This is a significant problem with the story, Manchester Black makes the very legitimate argument that a lot of the people who supposedly preach the morals that Superman does are either disingenuous politicians or complete hypocrites who never really practice what they preach and turn things to shit.
>>149110509
Interestingly now that they're trying to transition Superman from an "American hero" to a hero associated with the UN rather than the USA, it would be neat to see him confront the fact that the UN is an intentionally crippled institution which currently exists for little more than securing the interests of the 5 countries on the security council, all 5 of whom are superpowers who have typically played more by "might makes right" than anything else

>>149110553
>>149110555
>You don't have to kill bad people, you can put them in prison. That way you can keep society safe without having to engage in mass murder.
>Yeah, but prisons are broken. Therefore, mass murder!

Gentlemen, the forest is just behind those trees.

>>149110533
My point is like, it's usually the weak, the impoverished, the disabled who openly preach the kinds of ideology that Black does. Nietzsche himself was famously in a wheelchair slipping in and out of a coma and for all his talks about a more stone-cold "do what you have to" morality, had a mental breakdown when he couldn't stand seeing someone being cruel to a horse.
Likewise, the kind of morality Superman talks about are the world leaders, the CEOs, the military men. The ones who never act in-line with how they speak.
Manchester Black alludes to this fact almost every time he talks about the US government but Superman is never really forced to confront it in any meaningful way. Even just like, a scene where he asks government officials that he trusted to denounce the Elite only for said officials to say "Well, economically they've been great for tourism." would have worked wonders in the grand scheme of the story

>>149110606
Anon, it's not the concept itself. It's because American prisons are ran by private entities who have dubbed it within their best interests to use said prisons as labor camps to line their own pockets rather than focusing on reform or even on the proper containment of the criminals.
Talk to former prison guard and they'll always tell you it's best to be more chill with the inmates so they don't gang up on you and shank your ass because prison has put them in a position where they revert to their most base instincts and the guy who got arrested for carjacking and does eventually get out is now in a much more violent state of mind by the time he does

>>149110622
>Manchester Black alludes to this fact almost every time he talks about the US government
That's the point of the story. It's a criticism of neoconservative ideology. "We have to go kill Sadam so Iraq can be a better place!"

>>149108235 (OP)
>somebody somewhere did a bad thing, therefore everyone should just die
What's it like being in your early teens and thinking nihilism is profound? I don't remember anymore

>>149108293
Still being alive is a pretty big difference. Try doing something when youre dead, its not easy.

>>149110606
>You don't have to kill bad people, you can put them in prison. That way you can keep society safe without having to engage in mass murder.
Do you realize that for that to work, you first have to catch or subdue them? Such difficult work, which often takes more victims in the process, makes you wonder why you didn't kill them in the first place.

>>149110698
You have to catch and subdue them to kill them too. Don't just say shit to keep talking. If you don't have a coherent point you can just say "I get your argument but I don't agree." You don't need to use sophistry to try to save face.

>>149110716
>You have to catch and subdue them to kill them too.
What are you talking about? You don't need to do any of that to kill someone, just use a rifle from a distance.

>>149110740
...how old are you?

>>149110762
how stupid are you?

>>149110799
Apparently a lot less stupid than you.

>>149110463
>We'll keep a quadriplegic alive and suffering entirely to feel good about ourselves while the dude is like, just confined to a room and left there to just think into the void because we're too pussy to even talk about the notion of assisted death.

Pretty bold to claim that every single person with a severe health condition wishes to just die, especially when we already have things like do not resuscitate orders.

>>149108235 (OP)
>The fact we live in a world that is demonstrably not worth saving.
That's because you retards keep trying to "save it" while doing more damage because you are puppets to higher forces that you claim to be fighting against.

>>149110555
You forgot the part where the prisons basically just create better criminals because there is no real attempt to rehabilitate people so mass incarceration just turns prisons into networking hubs for the next gang waiting to gain prominence. That’s how gangs like MS-13 was created, they were nobodies who spent time in prison, built networks and learned from other criminals and then when they were deported they had connections and pipelines basically ready in the US allowing them to grow more powerful both sides of the border.

>>149108837
I have the opposite opinion, a no kill rule is the only thing that makes them still likable. The shitty comics are the ones that jerk off how "mature" they are but have nothing to say besides bill Maher liberalism and "what if an awesome guy mass murdered north korea?" Its such baby shit. At least superman is an ideal, an abstraction with greater symbolic/thematic meaning.

>>149110940
The fact that nobody cares about the Authority anymore despite their entire MO being killing people shows how shallow the whole bitching about the no kill rule is.

>>149109352
Black lost because he assumed Superman had adopted his philosophy, because Black was too much of a simpleton to accept that other methods exist or that other solutions could be found besides "Kill people because no one can stop you"

>>149110306
Sargon's opinion was coloured by Manchester being english.

>>149109568
>you guys sure are talking everything but comics and cartoons
Because the story is paper-thin and insipid, so there's not much to talk about regarding it or anything to say that hasn't been said a million times.

>>149109643
>and stealing wealth from colonised lands from the other side of the globe.
Running colonies actually cost more than they provided

>>149110665
Except that's far from just neoconservatives.
One reason it's so hard to separate Superman from this kind of stuff is that he's an extremely powerful individual who acts in a manner where his core defining trait is this 'moral clarity' in everything he does even when he's up against what could be considered the will of the people because he knows he's doing the right thing and he's only fighting for justice and can be completely trusted to only do what he has to do without taking things to any particular extremes. Even when answering to someone, a story makes it clear that Superman will do such a thing as part of his moral checks and balances upon himself and that we should be thankful Superman is such a great guy who would be willing to stand a trial even when he doesn't have to.
In that regard he's basically a walking symbol of the exact rhetoric the USA used whenever it came to its own foreign policy and intervention. The difference being Manchester Black is basically that same ideal but more honest to what it actually looks like in real life, a 'might makes right' delinquent who will give everyone the illusion of checking his power when he feels like it.

>>149110306
>Shoutout to the Lotus Eaters, Sargon's shitty sloptube channel, for having the worst take on Superman vs The Elite of all time.
QRD?

>>149110162
>The point is you don't have to be a cunt, so don't be one.
Assuming all wars are not manufactured conflicts by the elites the problem is that in real life, realistically we don't know what the other enemy is capable of.
Now see I never read this comic.
But if that's the case using Superman as a stand in for how to conduct yourself is just dumb.
America doesn't know the missile capabilities of Iran.
Israel doesn't.
The whole world doesn't know how far Israel's nuclear warheads can go.
The whole world doesn't know if America has developed tungsten rods yet to replace nukes and militarize space.
This is a really fucking retarded comic if you're serious and proof capeshit can never be good.

>>149110879
American prisons being for-profit slavehouses does not defeat the concepts of imprisonment and rehabilitation
Stop being so stupid

>>149112249
And who's gotta pay for it, genius?

>>149111361
>America doesn't know the missile capabilities of Iran.
>Israel doesn't.
That's totally irrelevant to the aesop, but you're also completely retarded if you actually think that's the case.
Of course the US and Israel know Iran's missile capabilities.
They also know full well that Iran was making no attempt to build a nuclear weapon

>>149112262
>Who's gonna pay to run not-for-profit prisons
Everyone, through taxes.
I should have known your dumb ass was libertarian.

>>149108869
If something good happens, it is just.
If something bad happens, it is not just.
What's not to get here?

>>149109067
Just because you are incapable of feeling how another human being might feel in a given situation does not mean the billions of other man-apes walking around this planet are the same.

>>149108235 (OP)
How is Manchester Black right when he doesn't even stand by his own ideals? Might equals right is only favored by those who have power, and when they lose it suddenly a different tune is sung

>>149108235 (OP)
Op, why don’t you do the world a favor and just kill yourself?

>>149108235 (OP)
>What the world really needs is a cabal of unelected leaders deciding who deserves to die

>>149112450
People like OP are just sociopaths that want endless gore and killing in all their media. He probably jerks off to Berserk.

>>149112505
Frankly I think the fact that we're still talking about this story, Manchester Black, and everything surrounding it is a testament to how good it was

>>149112492
No, you see anon, Op would totally be safe. Because unchecked leaders never abuse their powers and kill anyone that slightly poses a threat or independent thought

>>149108235 (OP)
It's not going to get any better to live in with a nihilistic attitude, jackass.

>>149108414
the world is a beautiful place, but we have to make it that way.

>>149112324
And why should I pay out of pocket for Jamal the recidivist murderer and drug dealer to have free housing, food and medical attention when I'm struggling to make it to the end of the month?

>>149108235 (OP)
>superman would NEVER kill because, uh... he just wouldn't OK? stop asking for justice you chuds

>>149108293
>Just because I disavowed everything I believed in when it no longer served me doesn't make me a hypocrite if you hadn't made me see why I wouldn't want to live in the world I was pushing for I'd still be right!

>>149112988
and superman can only prove his point because he is the most powerful and he couldn't do it otherwise.

>>149112450
>How is Manchester Black right when he doesn't even stand by his own ideals?
And Superman did defend his own ideals? He literally stooped to Manchester's level because his own ideals weren't working.

>>149108235 (OP)
>we live in a world-
Well then... why not write a story that doesn't take place in our world?
Why is literally every superhero comic set in the present day real world with the only change being that a couple people have super powers?
Even in Invincibles, while that was set in the real world, the presence of Super heroes dramatically changed how that world worked.

Look at pic related, only like 6 or so of these take place in the real world as we know it, the rest are either completely fictional worlds or worlds that have branched so far from our current world that they're unrecognizable.

>>149113520
meant to say Incredibles

>>149108235 (OP)
> I choose to ignore all the good in humanity so I have an excuse to burn everything down
You’re proving Superman’s point

>>149113520
I think this kind of thing paints a depressing or even pathetic light on chracters like Superman or Batman
They haven't improved their societies one bit. They've been fighting crime for over 50 years of their life at this point, and there's no end in sight for the crime, it hasn't even diminished in the slightest.
Superman has had no positive impact on the world at all, infact some of the villains exist directly because of him.
Same for Batman, his war on the crime of Gotham has been fruitless.
The moment either of these heroes leave, it will be as if they were never there to begin with

>>149110555
>they're trying to transition Superman from an "American hero" to a hero associated with the UN rather than the USA
Superman is okay with sexually extorting third world children with the threat of starvation.

>>149109487
> beliefs, and they need a god to back them up and justify all the repugnant shit they do.
Such as?

>>149113575
I know, the message of hope is nice, but after 50 years of repeating the same thing and without any significant improvement, you just want to kick the balls of the guy who keeps repeating it.

>>149109693
Ever hear of the ice cream cone thought experiment?

>>149110162
> The reason Superman doesn't kill
He killed Zoe twice (MOS and SM2)

>>149110463
> You'll notice a lot of the most morally nihilistic people are in some way shape or form weak or disabled people because they have to deal with the dark side of everyone else acting like "good moral people", hell our entire system around the intellectually disabled is built on the idea they can't pick up on showering them in meaningless validations and assuming they can't pick up that we're being patronizing
As someone who actually has a brother with a disability, cerebral palsy, I can tell you that he doesn’t want to die or slip into depression. He just listens to audiobooks and watches wrestling, and that gives him fulfillment. Always putting your in a comparison mindset, thinking about the opportunities someone has that you don’t is extremely damaging

>>149108235 (OP)
>Look at a history book or turn on the news, and I dare you to justify not letting it all burn
Only if you focus on the bad stuff

There was no way he was right about killing the families of Villains in horrible and brutal ways like raining acid on them.

>>149108831
>And that slavery is being enforced by American companies?
>Foreign governments enforce slavery, companies take advantage of it.

this is willful ignorance or retardation. 3rd world slavery is a reactive measure, because its the only viable means of injecting cash into their economy. the US holds the cards and decides who does what and when. if they don't capitulate they're overthrown.

>>149113464
He showed why it works in the short term but not the long term

>>149113730
But it’s not like they’re literally fighting do 50 years, especially considering the different worlds and shit. It doesn’t work in the way you think it does

>>149113575
>>149114009
The Punisher has been killing criminals for 40 years, has his situation improved or has he turned the world for the worst

>>149108235 (OP)
Unless you want to actively destroy the world, why do you care if someone else wastes their time trying to save it?

>>149114027
>>149114009
>>149113575
I don’t know why people think good defeating evil is a permanent thing. Obviously the world is never going to be perfect paradise, conflicts and suffering is inevitable. But that doesn’t negate all the good that people and the world have, even if you choose to ignore it

>>149109565
he's halfway right. most of the time people are moral until it inconveniences them. sometimes people go past that, but not usually. you buy shoes made by slaves and eat tortured animals, everyone's got a tipping point of ethics to convenience.

>>149114104
Defeating crime in Gotham is Batman's entire thing. If he doesn't succeed in that, then his entire life and story will have been meaningless

He's not just a hired guy to help fight the fight, he's a superhero, crime is his villain, and he is supposed to defeat that villain.

Batman's life is supposed to end with him sitting in a wheelchair in a peaceful world

>>149108967
>morality is objective
>let me prove this by listing 8 different example of humans and animals having contradictory, conflicting definitions of morality

>>149109352
yes, stupid. black thinks the strong should be able to do what they want. superman humors him, and it turns black into a crying sniveling bitch. he's a hypocrite

>>149109500
No, Justice is universal. It's how we pursue it that's dynamic.

>>149114183
>supposed
it never will. nor does he think it will, its not heroic to do good deeds expectant of a reward. you can be a 10 year old who needs to frame the wold in binaries but the world would be a lot worse off if he never tried at all.

>>149114313
If he didn't think fighting crime would do any good, he wouldn't continue doing it.
Batman fights crime with the intention and expectation that his efforts will someday pay off, and lead to a peaceful Gotham

>>149114313
>>149114340
Cont, you are so buck broken by the corporate interests of keeping the status quo in comics forever.

You would probably also argue that Plankton doesn't ACTUALLY want to steal the krabby patty formula, but he's just in it for the sport of it

>>149113441
Irrelevant since Superman proved his point that it actually fucking sucks if you live by that mentality.

>>149108235 (OP)
it would be worth saving if someone gave a fuck about saving it. including you and I

>>149114340
Plenty of people fight for stuff that they don't expect to see come to fruition in their lifetime.
And even if you don't think crime will end, you can still do your best to mitigate the harm it does while you're around.

>>149114340
>If he didn't think fighting crime would do any good
he does.
>the world would be a lot worse off if he never tried at all.
he's just not an idiot. evil spawns naturally, and batting it down takes concerted effort and suffering. they literally call it the neverending battle

>>149114183
> Defeating crime in Gotham is Batman's entire thing
Yeh, but he knows it’s never going to go away forever, he’s just taking the responsibility to lower it as much as possible

So was he right /co/?

>>149114809
No going around killing random people is retarded.

>>149108235 (OP)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZjLxk0djyE&pp=ygUZU21pbGluZyBmcmllbmRzIG5pY2hpbGlzdA%3D%3D

>>149114859
>Not going around killing random people is retarded.
Fixed

>>149113464
>And Superman did defend his own ideals?
He did not kill anybody he had the power to keep alive.

So yeah, I'd say he stood by his own standard.

>>149114896
Mindless Schizo Contrarian NPC.

>>149114931
Not randomly killing people is for mindless NPCs.
Player characters kill whoever the want.
You don't even have access to the console commands.

This thread is so fucking pseudo-intellectual that Rick and Morty writers would cringe at it. It's like Reddit except occasionally people can say "nigger" and "fag." Tactical nihilism and incredibly homosexual post-modernism all over the place.

>>149113464
He didn't is the whole point, he tricked them, locked them up, hell the fact he just talked to their farscape ship is part of why he won. Superman stuck by his ideals is the whole point.

>>149112607
>Why should people pool their funds to build a better society?
To build a better society

>>149115073
You just haven't entered the real world yet, kid.

>>149112505
>>149112534
OP here. I literally don't care anymore. I hold no illusion of being just as shit as everyone else. Let the planet fucking explode. The universe will be better off.

>>149113520
>Well then... why not write a story that doesn't take place in our world?
Because that's disingenuous and cringe.

>>149113737
No?

>>149113520
>the only way for superheroes to work is in a made up fantasy world that functions completely differently from the real world
That says so much.

>>149108235 (OP)
Wrong.

>>149115585
Explain how giving criminals free room and board while crushing law-abiding people with debt builds a better society.

>>149108235 (OP)
>“Do you believe all that, sir?” he said. “About the endless evil and the sheer blackness?”
>“Indeed, indeed,” said the Patrician, turning over the page. “It is the only logical conclusion.”
>“But you get out of bed every morning, sir?”
>"Oh, do go away Vimes, there's a good fellow."

Fuck your fatalism. Fatalism makes people give up, let things get worse, and that will make the world not worth saving.

>>149117317
Gee, mom, why DOES keeping dangerous armed criminals locked up away from society benefit society?

>>149115770
>I want to give up so you should too

>>149112607
if its so lovely for Jamal why dont you bash someones head in and join him?

>>149112607
>Why should I build a better world?
Did you learn nothing from your history studies at school about the Allies financially building up their enemies they had just defeated? Because they wanted to avoid the same shit that happened after WWI?

Punitive actions from society create punitive reactions on the target.

>>149115817
https://www.playfulbrandstrategy.com/en/writings/chomskys-ice-cream

>>149117397
There is literally NOTHING you or I are physically able to do that would actually create positive change. Literally, physically impossible to make the world better. Stop being an naive retard.

>>149118089
>virus link
Nope.

>>149108235 (OP)
>Stormwa
Is no one going to mention what this is parodying? Without any context, it seems that the writer came up with these things from his own mind

>>149112607
>Why should _I_ pay
I mean
(1) You benefit from improvements in society as a whole.
(2) Stop fucking cutting the taxes of the ultramegarich and maybe they can cover the lion's share of the shit we need to have a functional society. The 1% can afford to pay a fuckload more. Maybe they can learn to live without megayachts that come with their own indoor theaters and winter gardens.
https://www.boatinternational.com/yacht-market-intelligence/brokerage-sales-news/most-expensive-yachts-for-sale

>>149118258
As a wise man once said: "Fuck your fatalism. Fatalism makes people give up, let things get worse, and that will make the world not worth saving."

>>149108671
which one is cooler?

>>149118978
i dont think manchester black and jenny have anything other than being from england in common. shes literally made of electric and nigh on immortal(ish)

>>149118978
It's just kind a of general deconstruction of the idea of gritty morally grey world police type heroes that were getting popular.
They're mosty the Authority but the idea was done several times in other comics like the Ultimates.

>>149118978
Well there it gets a little complicated, because when Warren Ellis was writing The Authority it was grown out of Stormwatch (a book that ended with the good guys going "oh fuck what've we done, okay this shitshow needs to stop), and he was very much setting the book up to be a "Road to Hell is paved with good intentions" story. Then it was handed to Mark Millar, a man that (1) thinks Scholastic books are too highbrow and subtle, and (2) fucks goats. He saw nothing wrong with a bunch of random superpowered people effectively declaring themselves judge jury and executioner for the planet. Ellis might've cringed at how Joe Kelly wrote Superman "proving" the Elite wrong, but he probably would've agreed with the underlying point of What's So Funny. Millar, on the other hand, is a fucktard.

>>149117538
>things I didn't say
Why are capeshitters so dishonest? Or are you retarded You didn't answer my question,by the way.

>Allies financially building up their enemies they had just defeated
lol you really are retarded. Never reproduce.

>>149119386
Point of order: The Elite ("What's so funny") came out before The Ultimates. We probably would have seem some references to THAT slop if it'd come out before What's So Funny.

>>149108235 (OP)
What if Manchester actually dealt with criminals, like thieves, murderers, and rapists? But he didn't just deal with them; he would maim them based on their theft, such as cutting off the thief's hand, castrating the rapist, and outright killing the murderer. But he does all this on his own, without the force of law, and therefore illegally.
He faces the moral hero of the moment, be it Superman or someone similar, but he cannot be defeated by brute force, either for moral reasons or because this Manchester has the power to avoid being defeated in this way by this "Superman."
What's next? Will this Superman convince this Manchester to change his behavior because these actions are terrifying the public and the general public?
And if he does change, how does Manchester do it now? The simple answer is to join the Justice League or a similar team, but what if he doesn't want to for some reason, like if he thinks it will tarnish their reputation or something? Where does he go? Could he become a police officer or a government agent? But over time, they will try to turn him into a weapon for political maneuvering, something he wouldn't like because it would go beyond his original mission of protecting ordinary people from criminals.

>>149108235 (OP)
Superheroes exist to defend the status quo not change it

Life and existence is inherently meaningless
Which is why you should try to make meanings while you live

>>149119785
what are you gay ?
that sounds gay as fuck anon.

>>149119792
Simply saying that in a pointless world, you should try to make a point, whatever that is to you.

>>149119897
>Simply saying that in a pointless world, you should try to make a point, whatever that is to you.
i see what you did there anon, funny.

>>149109445
You're not worth anyone's time

>>149109476
You're not worth anyone's time

>>149119239
The rich already pay most of the taxes and the government is irresponsible with the money. Stop believing the government is trying to help.

>>149120017
Every single Billionaire is living proof that The Rich aren't paying enough taxes.

what a fockin mank that Machester bloke is

>>149108235 (OP)
Wearing a shirt with his nationality on it was a bit on the nose methinks.

>>149119416
LoL True

>Firefighters should stop putting out fires because fires will always exist

>>149121793
a fire wont kill the world
but i see your point, but there has to be a point where its like "why does the universe try so hard to die every single day"

>>149121867
>a fire wont kill the world
that implies there's only one fire happening at all times

>>149121880
that would be by human hand and not just lightning.
fire is natural, you ever seen that big yellow thing when clouds move?

>>149121959
Humans are natural too. Anything we do is just as much nature as fire.

>>149110448
...the Phantom Zone?

>>149121985
well i just drew pot of greed so youre wrong!
both life and death is nature aswell, are gonna sit and ramble about that?

>>149122328
>both life and death is nature aswell

>>149112368
One of the few decent posters here. That's why I converted to Islam (Salafi) and I am actively working on bringing Sharia to my nation. I am so fed up with people tolerating evil.

>>149108235 (OP)
Its not because I can point at the specific people making the world worse. If Manchester doesn't at least want to try removing the obviously awful leaders this world has and rerolling for better ones, then he's not worth listening to.

>>149122335
is this a joke about ants and how life and death isnt comparable to something ?

>>149122363
No, I'm genuinely curious as to why you'd think I'd care that something natural is natural?

>>149108293
>Just because bro didn't want to die like most people, it didn't make him wrong.
It in fact did. Most men that believe in their ideals to the point of death, don't sell out.

>>149108837
Manchester is wrong for the same fucking reason stupid ass Frowning Friends are wrong
You can't go around spouting shit about (negative) might making right and how nothing matters then bitch out the moment its turned on you. You don't actually have a philosophy you have an attempt at justifying to yourself being a cunt to everyone. If he actually believed in it then he'd support superman fucking him and the others up in the name of his own set of morals. You can't pretend to not care about shit and then break down like a bitch and cry when its your life on the line. Superman showed to him how bullshit his own line of thinking is to the smaller fish and also showed that Manchester never even really believed in it. That might makes right means that it's the obligation of the strong to protect the weak and maintain justice, not that the strong get to act how they please. Strength is a relative place, there's always someone stronger than you, there's always ways for the "weak" to find methods to be stronger than you, you can't exude strength 24/7/365. A savage philosophy of taking what you please will inevitably result in large amounts of death, especially the savage's life, and eventually a return to peaceful society because morally just, regular people outnumber the sociopaths and thugs.

>>149110162
If I was a superhero I would give my villains an option surrender or if I catch your ass again I'll blow your brains out.

You only get one.

>>149119633
Then it'd be a subject for a novel and not a comic book because it'd require a lengthy discussion between superman and the other guy about the particulars of justice, about personal responsibility vs the responsibility of central authority, about whether the legal-justice system can even meaningfully interact with superpowered/supernatural phenomena, and so on. Preferably it wouldn't devolve into dumbass hero on hero violence for dumb ass reasons too but maybe even go to a court case. Regardless, its a lot of genuinely philosophical discussion that would be done a disservice by trying to force it into the 22-pages-of-dudes-punching-each-other format.

>>149108235 (OP)
No it's that they can't solve problems on their own yet have the hubris to think so.

>>149122562
The retarded costumes don't help.

>>149122602
Especially the ones with capes.

>>149108235 (OP)
The real problem is that you’re such a self-centered man baby that you don’t grasp that the thing superheroes do is help humanity from the problems they can’t fix aka supervillains, monsters and extreme natural disasters so that humanity has the time to fix what they CAN aka real world issues. They’re not humanity’s babysitter, they’re its guardian angel, and unless you outright want them to take away your responsibility to self-determination, there’s stupid shit humanity should be fixing on its own before turning to demigods for help.

>>149108235 (OP)
>Look at a history book or turn on the news, and I dare you to justify not letting it all burn.
Look out the window, and I dare you to justify hurting any of it

>>149122394
>there's always ways for the "weak" to find methods to be stronger than you
What are you talking about? The comic shows that the strongest always wins and that the weak have no say. Superman is the strongest and won because of that, not because he's the most moral or the most virtuous. The discussion is pointless if Superman always forces you to bow your head when he doesn't agree.

All humans are literally the product of rape

All humans alive today are here because their ancestor raped another human at some point

How can people reconcile they exist thanks to RAPE. An inherent injustice

>>149122710
Lex Luthor, it's a problem that Superman created and that affects the world's economy.
More than half of the villains are involved in the world economy and terrorism, what's Superman's excuse for not intervening?

>>149108293
Look, Manchester Black all but demanded Superman fight him with the same level of venom and lack of compassion that he gave to all the other criminals and despots he killed. You don’t intentionally spit in someone’s face and goad them to fight you to the death, and then have any standing to bitch about it when they finally swing at you. Even up to the fight itself, Superman tried reasoning and restraint and didn’t fight back. It’s only after the world and Manchester thought he actually killed Supes and the purple haired twat showed only weening pride that Supes started fighting and handed him his ass on a plate. The loser proved that he was a bully who preys on people he presumes are weaker than him, and even to the end Superman only fought hard enough to make Manchester Black give up instead of leaving him so physically wrecked he would need to breathe through a straw.

The fact Manchester Black pled for mercy despite never subscribing to it himself proves his philosophy is shit. The fact Superman can still temper his anger enough against a man outright trying to kill him shows he’s far more reasonable. By Manchester’s own philosophy, Superman had all the right to turn him into a pancake, and yet Superman still gave the humiliated wretch another chance to live. Might by itself is not right, might tempered with reason and purpose is. Superman never lost his, while Manchester’s left his in a long wet trail streaking down his face weeping like a bitch realizing how much being the weak one actually sucks.

>>149122759
Intervening in all the plots Luther makes to blow up the world or use super science to menace Metropolis? I thought he did that already?

>>149122774
He lets Lex walk down the street like nothing happened.

>>149122759
It's not Supe's fault Lex is an insecure narcissist with a "12-th level intellect" who can't see that the best way to upstage Supes would to use his power help the weak and vulnerable too.

>>149122788
So does the rest of humanity. If Lex is a known danger to the safety of the world, shouldn’t the first people trying to off him be the law bringers and the people he’s harmed?

>>149122766
Since we're going to argue without context. Well, in the story Superman ideology is actually never challenged. Superman is allowed to bully them, because, for us readers, he's right and the Elite are wrong. The story never gives us room to go against this argument. Which in itself makes the story bad. I'm trying to argue without the context, but it's very difficult to argue when the context of the times and what is being parodied is important

>>149109326
well, why don't you eat your own shit, since you can and therefore should?

>>149122808
Honestly, I’m trying to argue without bringing up the chronological context of the story nor what inspired it, cause I know for a fact that even if there would be an inevitable misunderstanding based superhero fight, the Authority and more importantly Jenny Sparks would never try to have a duel to the death with Superman the way Manchester Black tried. The Authority were dangerous assholes, but they’d realize far earlier there would be no value in fighting a guy like Superman. And that makes for a less punchy story for it’s time.

>>149115073
Nihilism is a deep ideology for a society that evolved beyond the need for imaginary spaghetti monsters

>>149122848
Shut the fuck up tranny

>>149115614
Whining faggot

>>149122341
Kys mongrel

>>149122562
>>149122602
>>149122665
Stop talking shit trannies

>>149122883
????

>>149122887
Trannies are known whiners

>>149108414
Just because the world sucks doesn't mean everything should die. The world being a terrible place is why people want to make it better.

>punch someone in the face
>get punched back
>"WHAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT FOR FIGHTING BACK!?"

>>149122904
Found the cape lover

>>149122923
Cope and seethe

>>149122928
Get your cape snagged in a plane turbine goomba

>>149122967
Change your diaper

>>149123016
I'm not the one wearing the oversized diaper on my back. I'll let you have the last word out of pity.

>>149122905
Nobody wants to make it better. If they did, the world wouldn't suck in the first place.

If the government sentenced superman to suck dick he would do it

>>149123030
Stop being a faggot

>>149123035
Nice projection

>>149122800
>shouldn’t the first people trying to off him be the law bringers and the people he’s harmed?
They can't. Lex is their boss and basically the owner of their wallets.
Besides, do you think the smartest man doesn't have a plan to keep them from killing him?

>>149123168
Sounds like something humanity should work to fix by jailing him then. Unless that's a basic admission that humanity can't deal with the rich on their own?

I believe the liberal status quo of comics comes from industry practices becoming entrenched.
>Comics code authority and moral panics creating heroes code of ethics to avoid future complaints.
>Not killing off people so they can be reused as well as not being too violent.
>Nature of a one shot 21-23 page story meaning there is a sense of reset at the end.
>Even villains "with a point" usually get shown to go too far just to contrive a battle at the end.
>Creative short hand of comics being disposable form of entertainment which quick turn around.
>Edginess feels almost like a reactionary response to this stuff, which in some ways began to feel desperate and assume maturity even when it wasn't.
>And some edginess was a response to popular works that were actually mature more than edgy.
The problem with the contrarian, life is awful, world is not saving etc is that it doesn't understand human psychology any more than the first bland opinion. I think both sets of opinion misunderstand a lot of human nature to push bland grand narratives and people have taken too much of that for their own views.

I find it funny that whenever this bait thread goes up, it always goes to whether Manchester Black's philosophy is right, and not his methodology. And I say that cause his methodology would tell us that he's a fucking idiot for thinking that he can kill Superman and then anyone else who fights back against him like it's nothing. As though the moment Superman corked it, the entire Justice League wouldn't converge on the moon and shove a superman dildo straight up his tight british arsehole. Like, forget the so-called debate of of whether or not might makes, consider the debate of what kind of "hero" basically tries to make themselves an enemy of Superman's boyfriend, let alone the entire world, in a single broadcast and thinks they can traipse on out of there with no consequences.

>But if he and his team can kill Superman so easily, then surely he could take on the rest of the Justice League no problem, right?

Superman getting incapacitated regularly by a green glowing rock is one of the reasons he has people with near-similar might or capability of him on speed dial. And outside of the plot armor they'd get an "The Elite Kills The DC Universe" book, it'd be an assured bet that the moment Manchester Black bragged that he'd kill any superhero who tried to stop them, Superman's bf Batman was already on a private line with five other JL members on how to take these upstarts down if Superman didn't pop back up. Dumbass was smoked from the start, and I'm surprised people don't bring that up more.

>>149108729
You should be proud of the deranged leftists who replied to you, it means you're onto something

>>149123385
I doubt anyone who's posted in this thread is a leftist. Just deranged.

The Elite are literally just a strawman The Authority created so that Superman can beat them up. Siding with Manchester Black is like siding with the “I AM SILLY” character in a political cartoon.

>>149123543
But they're right. So what gives?

>>149124229
Shut up edgefag

>>149124229
They're not, they're just losers.

>>149108235 (OP)
>Life has no meaning! Everything is subjective! Nothing is worth saving!

Does this story and Kingdom Come pretty much sum down to "old boomers complaining about comics not being like the ones they grew up with"?

>>149108235 (OP)
What are they discussing?

>>149124295
Clearly they're bonding over their dislike of capeshit.

>>149124258
The first is correct, the second is mostly correct, the third is wrong. You're just an idjit.

>>149124268
Half and half. "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" was more like a backlash to the then-common opinion of Superman being outdated and that his book should be more "hardcore" like what they were doing over with Wildstorm. Kingdom Come was more going "superhumans have taken to fighting against themselves for so long that they no longer even connect to the people they're protecting". So yes, it is pretty much boomers complaining about 90s comics. But it's not like the 90s comics were all that perfect, given that in hindsight they failed to be any more mature or profound than the more "childish" comics their boomer predecessors were making, just more grim and gorey. Either way, this book and Kingdom Come weren't meant to be proper analyses, cause frankly an actual Superman vs The Authority would be far too wordy and boring for most readers, as since as I understand it despite being assholes, the Authority actually do want a better world and would be more than willing to meet with a guy like Superman to debate the best way to handle it.

>>149110162
That's nice and all, but after Superman or Batman or any no-kill superhero captures a criminal, and then they bust out and start killing people, they are now responsible for those deaths.

>>149124313
Nah, Benson is too based for that

>>149110606
Yes. If your proposed solution is non-viable, then you go to the next viable solution.

>>149124387
So by extension, the prison guards, the penal system, the judicial system, and the government as a whole are also since they didn't give that criminal the death penalty. As well as their teachers and friends for not beating them to death, as well as their mother for not aborting them, nor their father for checking to see if his condom had any holes in it.

>>149124334
You are an idjit

>>149117409
But why not kill them? That ALSO keeps them away from society and has the benefit of costing less money to the taxpayer.

>>149122394
>If he actually believed in it then he'd support superman fucking him and the others up in the name of his own set of morals.
Might makes Rightfags fear this logic.

>>149120017
Uh, no. No that's not remotely true.

>>149122747
Is Superman the strongest because he is morally right? Or is Superman morally right because he is the strongest?

>>149122394
God you're so fundamentally stupid. Yes "might makes right" is objective truth. That doesn't mean I have to like the fact that it's true. Or the fact that because the world is full of idiots, the people with might are the ones who under no circumstances should have it.

>>149124410
Literally yes. That is objectively true and which is also the reason why we desperately need prison reform. We as society SHOULD kill some (not all) types of criminals.

>>149124460
>Yes "might makes right" is objective truth
No, it's not. You have literal living organisms that don't even practice might makes right and have existed longer than human civilization.

>>149123543
It always puzzled me that they went so hard at The Authority. I never felt like the Authority (at least, when written by Warren Ellis, I never read the Millar stuff, because he sucks) was meant to 'take down' regular superhero comics, they existed in a different world, and dealt with universe-ending threats that couldn't just be sent to Arkham Asylum. Making a whole comic about how they suck actually seems overly defensive.

>>149124488
Bro, zero-sum competition exists as far down as our RNA. I know you're gonna pull some kind of "gotcha" where you're going to point to plants or some slime mold - but I assure you, it also competes for resources. So long as the resources for sustain and growth are finite, there will always be competition for them, and where there's a competition, "might makes right" takes center stage.

>>149124476
So when does it become the criminal's responsibility to just stop killing people? Never?

>>149124532
It is always the criminal's responsibility, but the reason they're a criminal is because they chose to shirk that responsibility.

>>149124491
Fanboys, anon. A lot of reviewers were praising Stormwatch and The Authority for being different and "more mature", and fanboys were saying DC should do the same with all their superheroes at the time. They'd been doing that stuff since TDKR and Watchmen came out since they're surface level. And unfortunately, plenty of comic writers are surface level too, so the idea that their faves should be emulating the current flavor of the month really rustled their jimmies.

>>149124544
Funny, you seem to hold everyone responsible but the criminal by saying it's their fault for the criminal continuing to breathe.

>>149124491
>I never read the Millar stuff
Not sure on the timing, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the stuff that rankled the established guys more. The Authority fight (and literally rape) a fake Avengers team with Millar writing.

>>149124602
From Millar's run, here's fake Hulk

>>149124602
Millar's run started about 2003 if that helps, anon

>>149124558
Okay, I'm going to write this sequentially so you can follow along:

>It is every citizen's responsibility to not be a criminal. We, as a society, do not like criminals and don't want them around.

Case 1:
>A criminal is violating that responsibility.
>We can wait around for the criminal to remember this responsibility.
If we assume the threat of punishment (might) doesn't exist
>The criminal is going to keep being a criminal because exploiting your fellow man is extremely profitable.

Case 2:
If punishment (might) exists
>The criminal is still going to commit crimes, but he is forced to balance out the fact that he knows he might get punished for it
>The criminal commits a crime, is caught, and is now punished for it.
That above is is "right." So we have just demonstrated that might makes right.

Now let's assume that our punishment system is inefficient. That makes might be weak or even non-existent. Then this leads us to the situation outlined in Case 1 - the criminal is going to keep committing crimes because it's advantageous for them to do so. And in the real world, unless you commit a REALLY serious crime, the punishment is fucking nothing. And if you're wealthy enough, prison isn't even a big deal for you, because you go a white collar prison.

Thus, if our punishments become severe enough, we can prevent crime because the cost-benefit analysis will show that say, getting the death penalty for stealing $500 worth of stuff isn't worth it.

>>149124652
this assumes that criminals will be caught and that they are capable of cost benefit analysis.

>>149124663
Notice how I said that we need prison reform. This applies to the police force too. The fact that 60% of crimes go unsolved is retarded.

And as far as criminals being stupid, yes, that's true, but also those stupid criminals are more likely to be caught.

>>149124652
Look up something called the Chen Sheng and Wu Guang uprising, anon. That's my response to the idea that extreme punishment is always the right method.

>>149124691
>chinkoid
I will look it up but first off, the Chinese aren't people, they're just biorobots. Two, just because there are exceptions, doesn't make it untrue.

>>149122394
>You can't go around spouting shit about (negative) might making right and how nothing matters then bitch out the moment its turned on you.
That wasn't what black believed though? He didn't think he was moral because he was strong. He killed villains because he thought it was the right thing to do.

>>149124714
No, please, look it up first and then respond. I'll wait.

>>149124691
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Sheng_and_Wu_Guang_uprising
>However, in less than a year, their uprising faced serious trouble; their force was no match for the highly skilled battlefield tactics of the professional Qin soldiers and both Chen and Wu were assassinated by their own men.

So like I said. Might makes right.

>>149124724
Quote Manchester Black "He who has power makes the rules"

>>149124476
>Literally yes. That is objectively true and which is also the reason why we desperately need prison reform. We as society SHOULD kill some (not all) types of criminals.
That argument could be made if superpowered criminals exist.
They do not exist in real life.

We have executed many people who were later found to be innocent, we can release an innocent person from prison but not ressurrect them.
There's no joker in real life who constnatly goes on murder sprees and escapes prison

>>149124735
Moron.

>The harsh Qin laws mandated execution for those who showed up late for government jobs, regardless of the nature of the delay. Figuring that they would rather fight than accept execution, Chen and Wu organized a band of 900 villagers to rebel against the government

If the only thing you offer potential criminals is death no matter what they do, then the people breaking the law are going to become people who won't fear death because you literally can't do anything worse to them, which is going to only grow because what the fuck do they have to lose anymore beyond their lives, considering their lives are already being threatened every second by the government

>>149124650
No, that's wrong. Millar started writing The Authority from #13 in May 2000. "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" was March 2001. It's entirely possible Millar's run is what prompted it.

>>149108235 (OP)
He got shown to be a cowardly hypocrite just like every edgelord on /pol/ who talk a big game about race wars and subjugating all women but can't keep eye contact with the cashier

>>149124768
My bad, I thought Warren Ellis's run was longer than that

>>149124767
And yet, how many people didn't show up to work late, or accepted their execution? I can tell you, speaking from family experience, during the purges in the USSR, crime was low. Not eradicated of course, but compared to Imperial Russia it was day and night.

>>149109251
All work programs for inmates are voluntary and subject to the same conditions and regulations as the commercial form of work. It's just the pay that sucks.

t. former 'slave' driver

>>149124792
>And yet, how many people didn't show up to work late, or accepted their execution?
Good question. Maybe we should also ask the ones who realized they were running late and just fled the country or took to a life of crime because they were already maximally fucked

>>149124737
That seems more like a statement about the nature of power than morality.

>>149108254
Destroying creation is the opposite of what the Demiurge would want.
Don't make references to things you don't understand.

>>149108414
It's a matter of perspective. There's plenty of great in the world and especially beyond it, i.e. the universe itself being as fascinating as it is. The Earth is kind of small time.

>>149108812
>The government is fair

>>149124918
>>149108812
th government is more fair than anarchy

>>149108235 (OP)
>Manchester Black
Do they ever bring him back in the comics?

>>149108235 (OP)
>The fact we live in a world that is demonstrably not worth saving.
Superman could make a prosperous, post scarcity, no war earth but editorial won't let him because it has to force a status quo to keep selling stories.
Ans as fucked as the world is now it could be a whole lot fucking worse.