Batfags never recovered from this

Why did he have to save the joker?

>>149151172
Because if Jason killed someone he'd have to bring him in for murder.

>>149151318
And now he murdered a guy because he didn't want that guy to murder a murderer, makes sense.
Batman is such an annoying character sometimes.

>>149151127 (OP)
Why did they make Batman's "I won't be judge, jury, and executioner" into "I don't care how many children he murders, I'm not letting anyone kill him". Batman used to be about just not breaking the law himself. He worked around the laws society has so civilians wouldn't be calling for the police every time he showed up.

Even Cops are allowed to shoot and kill dangerous Criminals. If Batman killed The Joker and then a warrant was issued for his arrest over it, everyone would instantly conclude it was some kind of Super Villain plot to get Batman.

>>149152280
Batman isn’t a cop

>>149151127 (OP)
To this day, I stand firm in believing that Jason was suppose to die here. It wraps the whole Red Hood story up nicely and its pretty obvious that no-one knew what to do with him in his Post-Infinite Crisis appearances.

Batman, without a doubt, failed Jason Todd. His mission is dangerous, insane, and gets people killed. That was always the symbolism of Jason's Robin outfit in the tube: to remind him that no-one else should do the things Batman does.

>>149151990
>Why did they make Batman's "I won't be judge, jury, and executioner" into "I don't care how many children he murders, I'm not letting anyone kill him"
Because the average human being is a drooling fucking retard who can't delineate certain similar concepts from each other. They assume that if (x) is bad, then (y) must be good—if killing bad guys is bad, saving them at any cost must be REALLY good, right!? There's no analysis or rationality here—it's just blind assimilation of a singular idea and using it as a metric by which to turn every subsequent dilemma they encounter into a dichotomous choice so they don't have to do any critical thinking.

>>149152915
Well, there it is. Unfortunately, when you need to make money, you do things the fans clamor for. Especially when you run out of ideas.

>>149151172
Jojer is worth too much for DCto let him die

>>149153019
At this point, I feel like fans want Jason to literally be The Batman Who Kills. Batfans seem to have completely missed that the entirety of the Failsafe/Zurr en Arr story was suppose to show how stupid only wanting Preptime Solo BatGod is, so they would clamour for Jason to just kill everyone.

>>149151990
Batman’s entire existence is illegal.

>>149151127 (OP)
BATBROS, THE PUNISHERCHADS ARE MAKING FUN OF US AGAIN

>>149152915
>>149153134
Jason and Bucky returning permanently is so lame. Both were fine for their arc, but then should have been sealed away. Maybe only now would have been long enough to pull them out again. The bat family is way too bloated as it is too. It should be Bruce, a Robin(either a boy or a girl, doesn't matter) and the occasional appearance of Nightwing.

>>149153156
Batman seems to work on a weird spectrum where either the public literally assumes he's an urban legend the police came up with to be harder on crime or literally gets his orders from Gordon in broad daylight.

>>149152880
He is a recognized and authorized Hero. The government and UN recognize him and the rest of the Justice League.

>>149152915
Well yeah, Winick even said he wanted a purposely inconclusive ending too that'd never be resolved. You'd have to believe Jason was definitely dead, or if he wasn't, somehow survived that shit but would never be seen again. Either way, Bruce lost or drove away his son figure.
DiDio wanted to push for Jason to be the next Nightwing along with his "kill Dick" idea, but that got vetoed by Johns and co. and then we got the stupid Brothers in Blood story and everything from there.

>>149153212
The BatFamily works when its spread out.
>Batman and Robin in Gotham
>Nightwing in Bludhaven/leading the Adult Titans
>Robin on Teen Titans proper
>Batwoman being an agent for the DEO
>All Batgirls working for Birds of Prey
>The Post nu52 additions literally just being satellite Bat Agents who aren't really part of the family, but are Batman's points of contact on missions

Having anyone else in the Mansion outside of Bruce, a Robin, and Alfred is too much and why it seems like the Batfamily is unwieldy nowadays. It doesn't help that every major Bat Story for the last decade has hinged on literally everyone who's ever helped him show up to do a big pose.

>>149151127 (OP)
I remember reading this as a kid and being confused by the last page because I didn't know about the crossover shit. No one would make a big deal about Batman no kill rule if they dialed back his villains like they're all serial killers now, it's why no one bitches about Spidey's he only got like 2 serial killer villains.Morrison's Jason I felt was natural conclusion to the character evil campy Batman basically, New 52 fucked that up.

>>149153311
Oh, yeah. I completely forgot that Dick was suppose to die in Infinite Crisis. Incredibly funny that the change happened last minute and Dick is still drawn like he's dead in the last issue.

>>149151127 (OP)
Everything about this comic was pure ass.

>>149153260
It's all up to the continuity of the story in question. Probably one of the most liquid of his character details.

>>149153511
Alex Luthor's previous shock at Nightwing taking the blast looks like it was originally scripted for him to be momentarily shitting bricks over the fact he killed Nightwing too, rather than him not having enough power.

>>149151338
>And now he murdered a guy
he got better

>>149152280
Still wild that no cop has the stainless steel clackers to just blow Joker's brains out when Batman puts him in custody.

>"The cop who kills the Joker has to answer to the Bat"
WHO. CARES. I get savagely beaten by a man who WOULDN'T KILL ME to save until millions of lives from the Joker. Let the Bat cripple me; I did what he couldn't do.

>>149151127 (OP)
After this didn't Joker use the gun to shoot the C4 and blow them all up as a big murder suicide? How did they come back from that?

>>149151127 (OP)
I know this is Jason Todd's big moment, but for Batman, this was just another forgettable comic.
No Batman fan cares about that shit.

>>149151338
It's the shit writers like Judd Winick that are annoying.
>>149153391
The Batfamily doesn't work.

>>149154122
The Bat Family works; it just works in small doses. Unless Batman is pulling some giant plan, his stories really just need him and a single back-up at most.
The problem, like >>149153391 said, is that every story for the last decade has needed Batman to call everyone he knows to help save him.

>>149153926
>"The cop who kills the Joker has to answer to the Bat"
The fuck's he gonna do if a cop shoots Joker in self defense? Seethe about it? The "Harley goes even crazier" excuse doesn't work anymore either since she's with Ivy now

>>149154219
He's threatened to arrest people before for defending themselves from Joker. Batman Noel a single dad tries to shoot Joker after he breaks into his home and nearly beats him to death, Batman starts screaming at him that if he shoots Joker in self defence he'll make him rot in Arkham and tell his little son his daddy is a criminal

>>149151127 (OP)
Batman really is a pyschopath

>>149154254
Got the page for that? That's sounds ridiculous.

>>149151990
>Batman used to be about just not breaking the law himself
Vigilantism is illegal.

>>149153212
>Jason and Bucky returning permanently is so lame
If you're a dork. Jason and Bucky are cool.

>>149154790
>If you're a dork. Jason and Bucky are cool.
Bucky is cool, Jason...........

Batman is the most retarded comic book character ever created.

>>149154462
Nah, Noel was literally A Christmas Carol, but Batman is the Scrooge who's lost his way. He just coaches the dad into NOT shooting the Joker to prove that you don't have to be big and scary to make a difference.

>>149154893
It's EARLIER in the comic where Batman is a sociopath who uses the father and son as bait for the Joker and tells Superman that he'll basically let the father die and terrify the kid into never becoming a criminal. (note: the dad is cripplingly poor and had to take money from the Joker just so he could give his kid more than an empty can of food for Christmas).

>>149154382
joe pyschopo lol

>>149151172
merchandising

you can't kill one of the most cash-cowiest characters in WB history

>>149153391
>>149154160
i can't really blame 'em for showing up when needed, almost every major batman story since at least rebirth has one or more of the villains do some over-convoluted scheme to wear him out

>>149156173
The "What if [insert Bat Villain here] found out that Bruce Wayne was Batman and systematically destroyed his life, only for the Bat-Family to rally as never before to save him?!" formula Hush (and Knightfall if we're being honest) created has done more damage to the character than Preptime BatGod and "I don't call myself 'Bruce'" ever did.

>>149152915
No he wasn't. The plan going into Infinite Crisis was ALWAYS Sick Grayson dying and Jason taking over the identity as Nightwing, basically to further torment Bruce and Jason running the Outsiders alongside Roy in Dick's memory.

>>149153778
>>149153511
SUperboy Prime was supposed to kill Dick, not Alex. Villains United IC Special was written before the order came to save Dick/kill Connor after Johns interceded instead as you get Babs reacting to Dick's death in the special.

Alex Luthor Jr blasting Dick was done once Dick was saved to give Bruce a breaking point moment and to show WW learning from her experience killing Max Lord via her talking Bruce down.

>>149151127 (OP)
Honestly a good idea they changed this in the animated movie.

>>149156527
Jason becoming Nightwing was 100% Didio.

>>149153458
>No one would make a big deal about Batman no kill rule if they dialed back his villains like they're all serial killers now
This is the real issue and why the No Kill rule started making Batman look so bad. All of his villains are now child-eating mass-murderers that constantly push the boundaries of what comics can get away with for nothing more than shock value. Like the Joker tearing off his own face and then stappling it back on. Why? Just to show how fucking crazy he is? It's so unnecessary.

But that's what Joker is now, he is the absolute worst thing imaginable, he's a monster beyond redemption that Bruce goes out of his way to protect at every opportunity. At this point, he's complicit in the Joker's criminal acts, but he refuses to accept this. So, he comes off looking very far from heroic.

Batman need to constantly in the process of alienating a new generation of Robin's because he's a mopey dick.

>>149151127 (OP)
Bob Schreck and Judd Winick’s shortsightedness are a stain on the name of Batman Comics. I often stay up at night thinking saving Jason and Bruce from the absolute shitshow that is Under The Hood.

Batkek v RORSCHAD

Why is Batman so obsessed with keeping the Joker alive? If the Joker got lung cancer he'd probably remove som orphan's lungs to help him

>>149151172
Because Batman is nothing without the joker

>>149154873
Jason was cool until they decided to wreck him beyond repair by forcing him into the Bat Family.

>>149157691
>Why is Batman so obsessed with keeping the Joker alive?
Because he makes all the money to keep the series going.

>>149158745
Jason stops being cool when you apply rational thinking to UTH and then you realize that Winick went out of his to present him as a loser.

>>149158782
Nah, Jason only stops being cool when you completely miss the point of UTH.

>>149157691
he gay

>>149151127 (OP)
Batman is the most pathetic character ever and only manchildren like him.

>>149151172
Dc cant let Joker dies in non-elseworld stories so it ends up making Batman stupid/ooc.

>>149151172
he had to save his lover.

>>149151318
Wouldn't it be a win-win situation though? Now Gotham criminals will have to worry about another guy besides Batman and this guy won't be as merciful since he's killed a bunch of known villains including Joker. Gotham's crimerate would be drastically reduced just from Jason's presence.
All those lives saved at the cost of Joker's life.

>>149151127 (OP)
>NOOOO, YOU CAN'T KILL THE JOKER BECAUSE IT'LL MAKE YOU JUST AS BAD AS HIM! But i can kill you for no reason though

nice

>>149154893
>>149154983
I think I hate Lee Bermejo

>>149157092
He's a literal incel son of a bitch, not a chad.

>>149154382
fr

Someone post the pages of Joker running out of hostages and pointing the gun to his own temple to coerce Batman into doing what he wants unless he blows his own brains out. And Batman actually fucking going along with it.

>>149151990
>"I won't be judge, jury, and executioner"
Believing in your lies don't make them true.
>>149152880
True, he is a super cop.

>>149151127 (OP)

>>149162547
>Batkeks really believe that
Yeah sure whatever you say. Just don't come crying to me once bruce gets a bigender female to male robin who fucks dogs.

My HERORorsach is so trad and based that even his creator trembles in fear.

>>149151127 (OP)
as first i thought joker says "son of a faggot"

>>149159528
The point being that he’s a loser who was wrong from the beginning.

>>149151318
He lets Catwoman steal all the time

>>149151318
Like when Red Hood killed a guy and the most Batman did was give him a new outfit at the end.

>>149164303
Or when he killed the Joker.........but he wasn't the Joker, he was just another victim of the Joker.

>>149164303
>>149164392
I agree that Jason existing as he does is stupid and should not be a thing.

>>149157691
I can see it, I'm sure someone on DC is going to write something like this.

>>149164392
i think that was the "oh there are multiple jokers" storyline

>>149151318
Jason already killed people.

>>149154893
>>149154983
Just think, that Man is now indirectly partially responsible for everyone The Joker hurts or kills or whose lives he ruins after that point.

>>149165100
As the years go by, Bob's kid hates his dad AND Batman just a little more every time the Joker kills another thousand people as an announcement to his next major crime. He eventually hates Christmas because he's always reminded of the Christmas where he dad could have saved Gotham.

Nightwing has already killed the Joker. And guess what happened? He came back on the next page. It's very simple to explain why the Joker is still alive: He is the Joker.

>>149164415
If only he and Bruce's dynamic was that Jason kills the truly irredeemable and Bruce can never bring himself to fully take him down because it would mean truly accepting that his mission failed.

>>149165183
And congratulations, you managed to end the Batman franchise.

>>149156632
What's the difference?

>>149151127 (OP)
This is so fucking pathetic man. Batman should just let Joker peg and top his ass at this point

>>149165212
How so? Plop Jason in Suicide Squad or any of the other government organizations. Pretty sure Cass killed people, too.

>>149165160
>He came back on the next page.
Didn’t Batman save the Joker?

>>149165298
Why keep punching a knife point? How many times does Jason have to fail for you to understand that he's only good as a villain?

>>149165368
Batman and Huntress

>>149165369
That's the thing. Jason shouldn't be a villain. He should just be The Batman Who Kills. That's it.

To keep Batman's fee fees protected, he just leaves Gotham entirely. But after that, Jason gets to give the villains who really deserve it a lead sandwich. There's tons of Bronze Age on forward villains that he can take out. People seem to want a Batman who will finally put an end to crazed mass murderers and Jason can do it. You can even string the audience along by having it seem like Jason's finally heading back to Gotham to finish the Joker, but then an Event happens or it's time for the bi-Annual Jason vs Bruce fight where they both leave pouting.

>>149151318
They would throw him a parade and give him the Medal of Valor for killing Joker

>>149151127 (OP)
No, pretty sure is that 2008 film.

Imagine if Goku acted like Batman, he'd just let Frieza go "because he'd be just as bad as him" and then Frieza attacks the earth again and rince and repeat

>>149165547
Red Hood can't stand alone. Do you want to sacrifice the Batman who holds DC together for him?

It's insane that the Joker hasn't been shot for shifting in his handcuffs after Batman turns him in.

>>149154006
That isn't how plastic explosives work.

>>149157061
>yes yes
>we understand
>you're batdaddy Does Nothing Wrong
>there there
>batdaddy is here to wipe away your tears

Jason needs to go back to dating Artemis and just switch from being a bat family faggot to one of Wonder Woman's sidekicks and extended cast, since she's also in the "I will not feel guilty for beheading unrepentant monsters and mass murderers" camp and Jason won't constantly have to defend himself from behaving like a completely reasonable and rational individual after his psycho daddy knocks his teeth out for daring to shoot live ammunition at the Joker and Scarecrow after they escape Arkham for the 100th time.

Dark Trinity with Bizarro and Artemis was the best situation Red Hood was ever in because he was allowed to actually do shit on his own terms without constantly dealing with the same tired retread of whether it's okay to shoot people or not that nobody else in the setting deals with.

Just have bats lose the custody battle and Jason ends up staying with aunty Diana, and then have the lessons he about learning compassion and ensuring the side effects of the Lazarus pits don't control his personality (and since she's explicitly magical and divine in nature she can actually acknowledge the Lazarus out shit instead of pretending it doesn't exist like Batman or that even if there are side effects it's still his fault for being murdered lol), and have the conflict be when you change from an offered hand to a closed fist or drawn sword, with killing being a last resort rather than completely verboten for retarded editorial mandate reasons rather than any in-universe justification.

Jason coming back wasn’t a mistake UTH was the mistake.

>>149168365
Both were a mistake.

>>149166762
Pretty sure he's being hyperbolic with "The Batman Who Kills". It's not that Jason should take over the mantle of Batman and start killing people. It's that he should be allowed to be his own character who uses his previous death and the failure of other superheroes to do something about it to snuff out the villains who deserve it.

>>149156340
idk knightfall seems more like a story where bruce falls and slowly picks himself up over the course of it (if you're focused on his side of the story)

b'ye hush was definitely at fault considering DC took all the wrong lessons from it

It makes 0 sense to have Jason be a part of the Batfamily. He could make amends with Dick, Tim, Barbs, and maybe approach Damian. But he shouldn't be hanging out with them. He shouldn't have the bat logo on his suit either.

>>149152880
>The World's Greatest Not-a-cop

>>149169728
Yeah, he didn't take Joker's old secret identity just to be Biker Jacket Batman. Granted, I think the Incredible Mr. Lipstick outfit was stupid, but so is a red helmet shaped like Batman's cowl with a red bat on the chest.

>>149169468
Making Jason into a dime a dozen killer is incredibly boring tho. Like we haven’t seen this type of character play out already.

>>149169728
>He could make amends with Dick, Tim, Barbs, and maybe approach Damian
It should be the other way considering Bruce, Dick, Tim and Babs discredited him as a hero many times prior to his return. But UTH is such a shitty story because it pretty much lets them get away with victim blaming a murdered child by making Jason a sociopath.

>>149169848
I think this outfit is badass, it's a super villain outfit.

>>149170077
Shrink the tube and I'd agree.

>>149152915
>that no-one else should do the things Batman does.
And now the fanbase refuses to let go of the idea of the "Batfam" which is completely retarded at this point

>>149170019
>Entire thread is full of people crying about Batman's No Kill Rule
>Get mad when someone suggests the one character who genuinely agrees that the rule is stupid be allowed to kill

>>149170276
It's primarily because Batman has always had a sidekick, but DC won't let them grow up into their own heroes.

Dick should be leading the Justice League with the rest of the OG sidekicks.
Jason should be dead.
Tim should be Batman's only Robin
Steph should be his only Batgirl
Babs should just be the head of Birds of Prey. In another city. And take Cass and Helena with her.
Damian shouldn't even exist. Hell, NONE of the new characters should exist.
The League of Batmen shouldn't even exist. Why would anyone be inspired by Batman?
Batman should never actually have feelings for Catman.
Harley shouldn't be her own independent character.
Flamebird shouldn't exist, nor should any version of Batwoman.
Batman honestly shouldn't even be on the Justice League.

There's a reason why they got rid of most of the characters in picrel.

Wait. Dodge the bullet? From behind?

>>149170424
>batman/catman
i can dig it
but yes, the simpler 'family' setup before the overcomplication from events and post-IC new characters worked better. everyone had a fairly clear role and lots of freedom to have a life outside of the family.

>>149169848
>>149170046
DC has a fetish of humiliating Jason. How did OP's image, THAT Barbara thing, and so many other moments get by Editorial? Like, it's ridiculous to me.

>>149170582
>Like, it's ridiculous to me.
This is the same editorial that let War Games happen and tried to paint Stephanie Brown as over her head and got brutally murdered. Really everything went to shit in the late 90s and early 2000s for Batman.

>>149170678
What, are you crazy? That was great, NML, Brubaker's Batman. Things started to get bad in Hush.

NML was the beginning of the end desu. That really was Denny on his way out and it shows.

>>149170582
>OP's image
That moment humiliated Batman more than it ever hurt Jason.

>>149161457
>>149153926
>Kill Joker
>Batman cripples you
>Wacky DC Crisis event happens
>Joker is revived and picks up right where he left off.
>>149156744
This more or less hits the nail on the head.
If DC REALLY can't let go of Joker being "le throws Gotham into anarchy for the 5th time this month", they should at least do the thing where he escapes and seemingly dies, if for no other reason than to justify why nobody does anything about him - because he's never in custody and looks like he bites it each time.

>>149170926
Brubaker's Batman was good, but NML sucks. You know how people said that Jason coming back to life diminished the concept of his death being Batman's greatest failure? And how said death hardened his heart until Tim Drake joined him? And how Bruce made a greater effort to train Tim as a result of Jason's death? Well that wasn't diminished by Jason's return, it was diminished by Cassandra Cain. Whereas Tim was trained and trained until he was ready, and even then he wasn't a full time Robin, Cass literally joined the team despite being abused, illiterate, self-punishing and clearly disturbed. No only that, but she joined in a short time and was made the Batgirl. That's fucking irresponsible, but it sold well so clearly nobody had issue with Cass joining despite clearly killing the interesting setup they had with Tim (and Steph too).

bump

>>149170077
>>149170246
>>149169848

>>149165100
At this point I feel like Batman just wants everyone to be as messed up in the head as he is.

>>149151127 (OP)
I’d never side with a hero who would let pedophiles, rapists, and serial killers live after everything they’ve done.

Just rape Batman and the Joker at the same time

based

What would Batman do if some guy killed the Joker?

>>149175956
beat the guy until he's nearly dead

>>149151990
>I'm not letting anyone kill him
Hush 2 is this taken to extreme levels that was comedic. Batman not only calls in a personal favor from his doctor friend to help save Joker, but he also nurses him back to health in the batcave for months.

>>149151127 (OP)
If Denny O'Neil hadn't thrown a temper tantrum about Batman having a sidekick in the 60's we would've never had to deal with any of this stuff.

Terry >>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce

You know it's true.

>>149153391
The Batmfamily doesn't work. It seems like it does when one shows up unexpectedly to help during a long run but they're never actually necessary. Like, for example, I loved the part in Morrison's run where Spoiler shows up to infiltrate a girl's boarding school for some stupid reason that didn't need to be in the story and it made me want to read more Spoiler stories, but in hindsight she didn't need to be there and that didn't need to be included. The core group should never be more than Batman, Robin, and Alfred with Batgirl helping out occaisonally.

>>149152880
There are plenty of stories where's a deputized officer of the law and beyond that he's an internationally recognized superhero by multiple federal governments while the joker is an internationally recognized mass murderer with multiple previous convictions. Under no circumstances would anyone ever go to jail for killing the joker even if it was an obvious planned assassination since a jury could more than reasonably assume joker was about to do another terrorism as he has done every single other time he got loose.

>>149151318
Batman covered Jason's murder to keep flexing in his spandex at night. That faggot has no leg to stand on.

>>149165160
>Nightwing
So did Bruce by the end of DitF. After Superman stops him from killing Joker in revenge and after Joker loses his iranian ambassador priviledge, Batman starts chasing him again. All the goons ends up killing each other because Batman fight them in a tiny helicopter, Joker eat a bullet and the helicopter goes in flamme, only Bruce jump off and watch it explodes in the sunset. The reader is informed right away Joker most likely didn't died because that 's how it is between them. Literally. DitF conclude one more hypocrisy and double standard.

>>149165369
Be coherent with yourself. Most of his appearances after his death are him being an antagonist, that means he fails as a villain.

>>149169728
>He could make amends with
No he shouldn't. They're not important and he should fuck off. Larpers who'd rather eat in Bruce's palms than investigate the case of Jason's death deserve nothing.

>>149176870
Sure, but Damian is the best Batman while Dick is the worst.