>Creates nothing
>Becomes famous anyway
How did he do it?

>creates nothing
What he created gets exaggerated, but also downplayed excessively. Stan Lee did a lot.

>>149161114 (OP)
if it weren't for him, maybe western comics could actually compete with manga

fuck capeshit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3N1KHekQJM
Going to miss Stan Lee cameos

Charisma and selling yourself is the most important part of getting paid.

>>149161174
Stan wrote more non-capeshit titles than breads you've eaten

Didn't his handlers modify his will with forgeries so his family got cheated out of an inheritance?

A co-creator is still a creator, and Lee always credited Kirby for his art.

by being jewish

>>149161114 (OP)
That's the American way

>>149161207
No, he only has one family member, his bitch daughter who was part of the literal blood sucking and parading his senile self around

>>149161169
Creatively on the books themselves, not much. However, he was a brilliant marketer. He pioneered actually crediting artists (and writers) and promoting them when they'd typically gone completely uncredited. The artists wanted more than just credit, but ultimately, Lee was a company man who wasn't going to rock the boat that much.

>>149161209
Stan Lee was an editor at best. They can guide the creator but they aren't really the creator. It's like claiming Torishima created Dragon Ball despite how wildly different Dragon Ball would be without him

>>149161174
Let's be real, if it wasnt for him, shilling marvel media aside comics, marvel comics would be deader than dead.

Gerry Conway writing about him.
https://gerryconway.tumblr.com/post/180076782488/stan-the-man-since-the-news-of-stan-lees-death

https://www.tedagame.com/zak-site/Great-American-Novel/ff_Lee-Kirby.html
https://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-style-marvel-method-comics/

>>149161222
Kirby was Jewish too, just like many creators thay were screwed by the comic industry

>>149161174
Superheroes are the only reason the medium even got as far as it did. And without comics becoming big here in America, manga as you know it wouldn't even exist. And you have plenty of non "capeshit" books to read anyways. Who gives a fuck that western comics don't "compete with manga" other than pathetic faggots like you? Be grateful and shut up.

>>149161114 (OP)
He knew comic sales were nothing compared to hollywood and pushed most of his life for the projects to be adapted, so he is relevant whether you like it or not.

>>149161430
yea it makes me laugh when people bring this up to dunk on him, he was literally backstabbed by a fellow jew. If you dont push their ideology youre not "in the tribe"

>>149161114 (OP)
He didn't steal shit, stop lying.

>>149161278
Sounds like bullshit you garnered from a tertiary idea of the Marvel method.

>>149161174
Capeshit was a thing decades before Stan Lee came along retard

>CBA: Stan is a well-loved guy, and he takes a lot of heat, but he's also a showman and he has that hyperbole.

>John: Oh, he's a con man, but he did deliver. Anyone who says he didn't earn what he's got is not reading the facts. Believe me, he earned everything he gets. That's why I never begrudged him getting any of the credit, and as far as I'm concerned, he can have his name above any of my stuff, anytime he wants. Every time I took a story in to Stan—and if Jack were reading it, he'd have felt the same way—I had only partial faith in my picture story. I worked it out and I believed in the characters, but I was only half-sure it was going to work. I always had my misgivings. By the time Stan would write it, I'd start to look at that story and say, "Son of a gun, it's almost as though I planned it," and I'd believe a hundredfold more in that story after he wrote it than before—and if Jack would've allowed himself to, he would've had the same satisfaction. I sincerely believe that.
https://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/06romita.html

>>149161114 (OP)
The radio interview with Jack Kirby, where Stan Lee calls in, and Jack tells Stan that he wrote and drew the books, and that Stan was just an editor tweaking his dialog.

Stan calls in about halfway in:
https://youtu.be/A1yJZKDwIRE?si=bhh5Lr0e2OxMf8gy

>>149161980
This just makes John Romita sound like a fag trying to discredit Kirby and Ditko. Jack wrote dialog in the margins of his art and also submitted written breakdowns of the dialog to Stan. Kirby also said Roy Thomas was a goon hired by Stan as his personal toady and kissed Stan's ass.

>>149162009
Interesting. This documentary has Stan himself talking about Ditko and who created Spider-Man at 44:44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwDnhMO8is

>>149161114 (OP)
>Creates nothing
he would usually come up with the idea for something, send it to the artist to get it drawn, and then when it came back he would add the dialogue
this was the marvel method, and it was needed despite how much everyone, even stan, hated it because it got a lot of books out quickly, which was needed because they were chronically behind schedule and competing with the already established DC

the marvel method is also why no one can really decide who actually "Created" the character
because the artist would have actually created how the character looks and often times heavily influenced how they acted, while stan lee did actually come up with the original idea for it as well as their personality through dialogue

to say he created the characters by himself is wrong
but to say that he didnt create anything is also wrong

>Becomes famous anyway
for a lot of readers, he was the only member of the bullpen that anyone actually saw
and as editor-in-chief he would also be the one in the news as the face of marvel
he wrote the editorials, he answered the fan mail, and he hosted the (by his own admission disappointing) tour of marvel

>muh manga HAVE I MENTIONED MUH MANGA TODAY YET
>I NEED TO COMPULSIVELY BRING UP MANGA WHENEVER I CAN
What is this illness called?

>>149162009
>>149162065
late era Kirby was heavily emboldened by his wife and his entourage into claiming more credit. While he was involved in initial Spider-man ideas, he was making it out as if he created the whole design and character and Ditko was just the one to draw it, which is wrong by every other statement.

>>149162062
Romita was famous as a company man, but Kirby being very bitter about his experience with Marvel at the end colors his attitude to later Marvel guys like Thomas. Romita and Thomas both worked their ass off to at Marvel even if they sided with people Kirby ended up not liking.

>>149162065
Ditko has claimed that Jack Kirby may have created Spider-Man with Captain Marvel creator C.C. Beck and Joe Simon. In that same interview I posted, Kirby says he was involved in creating the character, but doesn't want to step on the toes of other artists. There's also famously a Spider-Man Halloween costume that was designed by Marvel in the 50's prior to the comic character existing and may have been designed by Kirby.

>>149161114 (OP)
He created the company that eventually became Marvel. He also created the persona of Stan The Man.

>>149161174
Not his problem.

>>149162074
Being an obsessed/obese weeb.

>>149162143
Yeah, but Roy was brought in as Stan's replacement and sucked up to him a lot as a young new employee, and is often on record defending Stan. Kirby satirized him in Mister Miricle.

>>149161114 (OP)
Rich man claims credit and fame for things he didnt do and he built an entire career out of it? C'mon OP, that is ridiculous

Stan wasn't the most creative of the creatives, but to say he contributed nothing is some dumbass zoomzoom shit.
Not only did he pump out work at a a volume that would have modern artists incessantly bitching on twitter about "muh workers' rights," he also played tard wrangler to the innumerable artists and writers who couldn't get their shit together AND crafted an extremely likeable and extremely public persona just to help prop up an industry that was constantly on the verge of death.
Almost every artist/writer thought their shit didn't stink and that they were above doing anything other than making their works available to an ever-shrinking audience. Meanwhile... Stan the Motherfuckin' Man is selling his ass off 24/7 for DECADES. Doing comic cons when they were in Rec Center basements, voice-overs for shitty cartoons and ads, calling radio shows, and replying to letters from kids and spergs. All to promote the general idea of comic books.
And half of that time was when he was still doing the same shit as every other creative on the books.
With his work ethic, pedigree, and charisma he could have gone to any non-comics publisher and made bank, but he stuck around and hustled with a smile for something he loved; even if it meant a bunch of butt hurt artists shit on him every chance they got.

>>149161169
This. Lee gave these characters their voice and often, their direction. Prime example is Him/Adam Warlock, who Kirby originally envisioned as a cold, amoral being as a commentary on Objectivism after talking to Ditko about it and thinking it was a crock of shit. Lee is the one who made Him an essentially good creation rebelling against evil creators.

>>149161114 (OP)
that was just how capitalism worked back in the day - artists, writers, inventors and visionaries would create thing and some asshole with money would swoop in and take all the credit for it so the y would die penniless and underappreciated.

Nowadays capitalists at least have to be subtle about it when they screw you out of your intellectual property.

>>149161871
Shut up retard

>>149163460
Kys commiefag

>>149163481
$1000 has been deposited into your account, courtesy of your friends - the capitalists.

>>149163493
10 inches of my penis has been deposited in your butthole nigger

>>149161114 (OP)
>literally every comic book legend from JR Senior, Gerry Conway, and even Jim ''decked the shit out of Bob Kane'' Steranko spoke highly of Stan Lee
>the only person who spoke ill of him is Jack Kirby, mostly because Kirby was a bitter fuck because Stan wanted his characters to have some charisma
>Ditko didnt even care, he took his paycheck and left
>Alan Moore despite having never worked with Lee just reitirated Kirby's seethe publicly because he got fucked over by DC

Man all this shit proves American comic writers are far too neurotic to create anything of value no wonder we're stuck with capeshit while manga dabs on our entire industry

>>149163553
Ditko thought he deserved more credit and left. He certainly did care.

>>149161114 (OP)
This isn't reddit so you're allowed to actually be reasonable about this instead of just regurgitating what Gary Groth and Sean Howe said.

>>149163565
Shut up tacotranny

>>149163594
>Sean Howe
That fucking book, man. Swear to God.

>>149161114 (OP)
/co/ has a sense of humour

>>149161262
Edison essentially pioneered R&D which is largely how things are created. Another worthless redditor opinion.

>>149161114 (OP)
By stealing. Oldest trick in the american book.

>>149162350
Hate Jobs as much as you want but he was the reason those shit computers and phones have a market share. You can have an army of autists creating things but if no one is buying then youre just a loser with too much time on your hands.

>>149161114 (OP)
A lot of the emotional beats and soap opera elements would not be the same, he was a good writer for his time and you can’t take that away from him. Everybody that originally worked on marvel was a pillar for the company in their own right, I feel like people don’t like just because he isn’t an introverted nerd

>>149163589
as far as i read, Ditko did have a falling out over Lee involving the Green Goblin and its eventual identity (Ditko didnt agree on it being Norman) and that he left but never asked for royalties because of his Randian believes
i do stand corrected if the situation was different

>>149161437
Nah, the two industries owes themselves to Detectives and Ducks, along with the occasional Duck Detective, not Capes.

>>149163649
The idea that he didn’t receive royalties doesn’t make sense given that he was living for decades in a studio apartment in NYC with no job or other contemporary comic work. We only saw what he looked like as an old man after he died and his nephew shared photos he had of him with the trades, because despite living in the middle of Manhattan no one ever got a single photo of him.

Also Ditko didn’t start believing in Objectivism until after ASM.

>>149163656
>source, my dreams

>>149163640
What?

>>149163649
>involving the Green Goblin and its eventual identity (Ditko didnt agree on it being Norman)
this one is a myth, since ditko had not only wanted it to be norman from the start, he actually inserted norman well before the reveal as a form of foreshadowing

at least according to people who saw the spat, his argument with stan was 100% over credit
he wanted to be credited as a writer, because he felt he was doing a lot of the actual plotting and character already
stan billed him as co-writer, but ditko didnt accept it, since from his point of view that was still stan billing himself as equal to himself when he thought he was already doing most of the story work in addition to the art

>>149161871
Stan hated being jewish because of his father. didn't want kids because he was afraid of being like him.

>>149161174
>if it weren't for him, maybe western comics could actually compete with manga
But Stan Lee did manga?

Wonderful. Another "I hate Stan Lee" thread.

The guy's dead. Let it go.

>>149161174
Blame American Puritans, the comics code pigeonholed the industry into capeshit or nonoffensive Archie shit

>>149162733
Watch some of his interviews from the 70s. He comes across as intelligent and enthusiastic despite the interviewers being condescending intellectual dickholes. I would argue that comics are only viable as a cultural touchstone in the modern day thanks to Stan and those like him forcing adults to appreciate the medium and see it as something other than "dumb kids' stuff."

>>149162350
>Rich man
Just say jew

>>149164088
>like him forcing adults to appreciate the medium and see it as something other than "dumb kids' stuff
But he did the opposite.

>>149161278
Torishima created Z to explain Goku and Piccolo's origins, commissioned the anime which expanded Piccolo and the Red Ribbon Army, Bardock Special because Toriyama didn't like the battle manga or Goku being a paragon. Super is what happens when Toriyama gets control. It's the Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza Hour. Zamasu, Jiren, Toppo are the only good characters he made. Nakatsuru is the only one who can replicate Toriyama's gags without the crass humor. Torishima also created Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, while Kondo made Raditz, Frieza and henchmen.

>>149163661
He only received royalties for movies and adaptations , not comics , most likely. He was still going to Marvel for any work well into the 90s and had to work consistently even to the end. His apartment and studio were both rent controlled so he was paying 1960s prices and it was easier to get by.

>>149165214
And yet no one credits them as creator.
The whole idea of putting Sailor Moon in a sailor fuku was the editor’s request, but no one calls him the creator of it.

>>149161169
>>149163008
>>149161275
>>149161278
Stan Lee fought to get creators named and credited on books, if it weren't for him as Marvel's editor (and Timely and Atlas before that) you wouldn't know who the fuck Kirby or Ditko or whoever was and they'd all be the cheapest, drunkest idiots who could hold a pen

this is the same man who broke the CCA's power, found work for his old friend Kirby after Kirby spent all his money on a startup studio and burned all his bridges with Marvel's publishing office and then with DC

this is the same man who relentlessly promoted Marvel wherever and whenever he could, becoming the face of the company that paid his friends and non-friends alike, who dealt with the studios to get Marvel's works adapted long before Marvel had any hope of being able to finance its own productions as animation or live action

this board exists because in the early 1960s instead of quitting a company with falling sales, Lee took it in a new direction; if he hadn't, DC's own falling sales would have seen both the Big 2 publishers go under by the end of that decade, leaving you with nothing to bitch about

>>149165326
and a lot of the shit he gets shat on for was stuff his uncle and father put him up to

>>149161302
>marvel comics would be deader than dead.
This would've been the optimal outcome and I'm tired of pretending it's not

>>149165289
Well if it was America they would.

Steve Jobs?

>>149161437
>Superheroes are the only reason the medium even got as far as it did
That's a bad thing. Comics becoming more mainstream lead to most of it being dominated by capeshit.
>And without comics becoming big here in America, manga as you know it wouldn't even exist.
Most of Tezuka's inspiration was duck comics and disney so wrong(and I wouldn't mind manga having less capeshit stuff in it either, get your mha garbage out of here).
>And you have plenty of non "capeshit" books to read anyways.
Too few compared with how many capeshit gets made.
>Who gives a fuck that western comics don't "compete with manga"
Look at the state of modern western comics and think about it. Getting a 6/10 western comic nowadays is a miracle.
>Be grateful and shut up.
>just be a mindless consumer
Fuck off.

>>149165289
>but no one calls him the creator of it.
Stan Lee did more than those editors though. Like he also wrote all of the dialogue and captions in a lot of these comics. Helping to come up with the main ideas and doing all the dialogue isn't a small thing. He's not the sole creator but I see no issue in calling him co-creator.

>>149165326
Jesus Christ, get this filthy crook's dick out of your mouth. The comic book industry would be better off if Marvel never existed.

>>149165398
>but I see no issue in calling him co-creator.
Well he did because in reality he was the sole creator.

>>149165385
What really killed non-capeshit comics in America was tv and distribution being a mess. Cartoon based comics stopped being popular once kids could just watch cartoons on Saturday mornings for free.

>>149165385
>source: my ass
>>just be a mindless consumer
>Fuck off.
I didn't even say that. Get over yourself.

>>149165426
Maybe there's quibbling over the exact definition of "creator" and arguments about who contributed what. But it's not like he didn't give credit to the other people working on the comics.

https://marvelsilverage.blogspot.com/2018/10/stan-lee-in-post-fact-world.html

>>149165411
Kys fag

>>149165475
That's unfortunate.
>>149165492
Source for what you faggot? Most of the things I've mentioned can easily be verified by doing a google search.

>>149165515
>Maybe there's quibbling over the exact definition of "creator
It's not. He was just a slimebag.

>>149165537
Shut the fuck up, you worthless marveldrone. Don't reply to me, you cunt.

>>149165609
Elaborate.

>>149165668
There's no quibbling over a word that has a well defined definition, he was just a slimebag.

>>149165683
If you come up with the initial concept of a character or comic, you can rightly be said to have created that character in that sense.

>>149161114 (OP)
With cameos of course
He loves cameos

>>149165560
Maybe you should search "how to tie a noose" in google instead. It'd be a better use of your time.
>>149165622
You're not perfect.

>>149165712
Not if there's no real core.

>>149165875
I don't disagree with you there. It can technically be called creating it, but without everything else you haven't really created the complete comic or character. So "co-creator" is more appropriate, and Stan sometimes exaggerated his role and contributions. But not nearly as much as people sometimes accuse him of doing. He gave out a lot more credit than he's given credit for.

I think Ditko deserves more credit than Lee for creating Spider-Man as we know him. I also think Marvel comics and characters wouldn't have been nearly as successful without Stan Lee steering them.

>>149166067
There's the drawing of Kirby's Spider-man. If Stan's core is such a nothing that the character can be so vastly different when put into two different artists' hands then he deserves no credit because what he did was at best the work of an editor.

>>149165846
>Maybe you should search "how to tie a noose" in google instead. It'd be a better use of your time.
>having a meltdown because someone criticized his shit
Imagine being such a worthless bitch.

>>149166428
>There's the drawing of Kirby's Spider-man
There's a mock up of what Kirby's Spider-man was described as being. Not an authentic example of the art.
Same with that Bob Kane's Batman image that floats around. It was a modern recreation based on a description.

Seems to me that Stan Lee's dialogue contributed a lot towards making memorable comics. The Thing isn't the same without "It's clobberin' time."

>>149166431
Perhaps bullets are more your speed?

>>149166975
Perhaps being less of a coping retard would be more of your speed?

>>149167035
Why are you so mad?

>>149167041
>y-you mad
If you keep writing like a bitch I will keep treating you like a bitch.

>>149167081
Tough guy, you are.

>>149161114 (OP)
He created endless seethe among midwits

>>149167104
Midwits love him.

>>149161174
No, they were dead after the comics code thanks to Archie and DC.

>>149166067
I love Ditko but I was always surprised by how pissy this came off, if he wanted more credit he should’ve done more public stuff with fans. What’s the point in whinging away when he and Lee were always both billed in the credits of the books

>>149161262
Edison made inventions assessable to the public and that's what made him worthy of respect.

>>149167121
Ok, Einstein.