Thread 149162569

Why was Taylor's Nightwing run so hated?

>art was consistently great
>Dick and Babs were written great together, no forced drama
>didn't ignore the Titans like most NW runs
>no forced batfamily drama
>didn't bring back Dick's daddy issues
>didn't get derailed by 50 events and crossovers
>Heartless had a cool design and MO, and is politically relevant in today's times
>didn't leave any lingering plot threads

The biggest thing dragging it down was how decompressed it was, but almost every big two book these days are heavily decompressed.

>>149162594
Nobody gave an actual answer last time.

>>149162569 (OP)
thinnest plot imaginable stretched out over 40 issues, padded by feelgood moments meant to go viral on dc twitter

annoying choices regarding characters like melinda having three well known batman names slapped onto her to avoid doing actual character work or having olivia be an unholy mix of blockbuster and jezebel jet because taylor couldn’t think of any other black villainnesses

and some of his writing was unintentionally funny when he thought he was being cool or introspective
like babs saying she couldn’t just go out and get pizza whenever she wanted when she was paralyzed, dick putting a fucking statue of alfred in the middle of bludhaven, and pic related (tho it’s from his titans run even if it was a nightwing spinoff)

>>149162569 (OP)
Did you read it? 90% of the book feels like filler, and the climax is boring as hell.

>>149162569 (OP)
>Dick and Babs were written great together
that's the problem, Dick and Kory are superior

>>149162892
Blockbuster and Jezebel Jet don't even make sense together. He died years before she was even created, and she died years before he was ever resurrected. A moron American street criminal who spent his young adulthood in and out of jail getting BTFO by a boy in green scaly hot-pants isn't in the same social circles as the only daughter of the president of a central African country.

>>149162892
>pic related
context?

>>149162569 (OP)
not enough ass, feels pretty draggy

>>149162569 (OP)
Because the hivemind has decided to hate Taylor over something entirely unrelated to Nightwing so everything Taylor writes has to be bad

>>149163043
If Dickkory were superior they’d still be together

>>149163267
unfortunately in this industry, being the better option means it won't be considered because "ragebaits sells comics", Dickkory is the superior ship and that's why they won't give us that, just like how Peter and MJ haven't been together since 2007 or how the X-Men will never not be miserable

you'd know all this if you weren't a retarded newfag however

>>149163276
>Dickkory is the superior ship

It’s not. It can’t work outside of Titans and Dick is way better off and seller when he’s a solo character so your ship is terrible.

>>149163201
dick created a backup place for private consideration in his consciousness as a hide to from raven/evil raven even though raven's powers do not include telepathy

>>149162892
>>149163134
>Dick's dad and archnemesis are eskimo brothers

Alrighty then.

>>149162892
>>149163355
>Had his own gay little version of Zir-en-arrh
Now this is hack writing.

>>149163403
Taylor gave Dick a 5D imp too lol

>>149162569 (OP)
It was bland and stupid. The problems solved itself by the power of having superfriends or by his ennemy having a brainfart moment. All the character spoke with the same voice because there was no characterization.
>didn't get derailed by 50 events and crossovers
>art was consistently great
That's the greatest sin of this comic. For 4 years the author had the planets aligns themselve for him and he did nothing with it. That's take a considerable amount of no talent. No commentary of value. No meaningfull addition for the fans to latch on. No dynamics between the characters. No character development. No new direction to follow after he left because he did nothing but put his own (blander) little spin on the first Nightwing run. He had 4 years and the best working conditions in this industry and all he left is a pet that already nobody care about. It's fascinating in a morbid kind of way...

>>149162569 (OP)
>art was consistently great
That's right......when it was Redondo
>Dick and Babs were written great together, no forced drama
No, you're wrong, they're both written like 2 "look how adorable" labradors, there's nothing worth watching about them together. If there's no conflict, if there's no drama, why should I care?
>didn't ignore the Titans like most NW runs
Not ignoring the Titans is a mistake.
>no forced batfamily drama
The run would run the risk of being minimally interesting.
>didn't bring back Dick's daddy issues
how not? there's a pathetic scene of Dick calling Bruce daddy.
>didn't get derailed by 50 events and crossovers
are you stupid? literally it was
>Heartless had a cool design and MO, and is politically relevant in today's times
no, it doesn't, only in your progressive world, in the real world it's just lame. And his design is horrible, if Nightwing was 1% competent he would have been defeated in the first arc, but since Taylor made Nightwing a piece of shit, it took 50 issues.
>didn't leave any lingering plot threads
he left a shitty sister, a shitty dog, 2 Superman characters, Dick being a billionaire, made Bea become a pirate, the Titans Tower in Bludhaven.

>>149163134
I had forgotten about that.............this is so bad.

>>149163648
Don't forget how he created Melinda Grayson, ignoring all the 2/3 other children Zucco already has.
>>149163455
This was fine. Nite-Mite, the dog, and Captain Blud were all perfectly fine, inoffensive additions to Nightwing's lore.

>>149163643
>Dick being a billionaire
>Alfred "John Lennon's" his babymomma and daughter for the Waynes
>Dies and still ignores them in his will giving inheritance to Dick

>>149163643
>The run would run the risk of being minimally interesting.
Forced batfamily drama is the opposite of interesting. It's so commonplace it's completely an utterly boring.

Drama should've came from a chunk of Bludhaven's working class people thinking Dick is gentrifying their city and larping as a philanthropist

>>149163805
>Drama should've came from a chunk of Bludhaven's working class people thinking Dick is gentrifying their city and larping as a philanthropist
Are you trying to fuck some stinky college commie?

>>149163853
>interesting plotlines about Dick's dedication to improving Bludhaven and the civilians reacting to it? nah bro thats some poopoo commie shit, I just want retarded Batfamily drama running in circles again and again

>>149163805
> Bludhaven's working class people
Honestly, this but that could never be a thing under a larper like Taylor. The guy is too neo liberal and safely tucked in his echo chamber to do more than preach for his side.

>>149163805
>>149163880
Would've been a good excuse to bring Raptor back too. He's should've beat Dick's ass for it, but he would've overshadowed Heartless so it would never happen.

>>149162569 (OP)
>Heartless had a cool design and MO, and is politically relevant in today's times

>>149163805
what >>149163880 said, Taylor is too dumb to write something like that

>>149163890
what was Heartless's deal again?

>>149163899
Kills and steal's peoples' hearts to fuel himself or put in a private collection

>>149163306
That second sentence is a mess, try harder
Also you're just wrong. Sales? Nigga no one reads these things jeezus

>>149162569 (OP)
>Dick and Babs were written great together, no forced drama
Sauceless, boring, forced, unseasoned ship.

>>149162569 (OP)
For me, it was the stupid ass retcons Taylor is just so damn obsessed with.
He's been doing the same shit with his Tec run.

>>149162569 (OP)
>didn't ignore the Titans like most NW runs
You say that like it's a good thing, the Titans suck.

>BLOCKBUSTER LEARNS NIGHTWING'S SECRET IDENTITY?!
>oh he's dead now nevermind

>>149162569 (OP)
Taylor didn't write this run for Nightwing, he wrote it for himself. He wrote the run that would earn him a pat on the back.
His run was so boring that it made me re-read the entire Ric Grayson era again.

>>149163980
What killed me is that BLockbuster learned it because he hit him so hard his mask popped off lmao

Even Devin did better than that, having a reporter basically stalk him

>>149163997
Speaking of stalker... what was this guy's goal?

>>149164002
Where's that from?

>>149164093
some Nightwing backup (when they still justified the price increase by putting backup)

Don't feel like making a new Dick thread, but who do you guys think are his best original supporting cast members (so no batfam or titans)? Or at least the most viable ones?

It's kinda sad that even Tim managed to have a popular supporting cast member in Steph and that trans roommate of Babs showed up a handful of other runs/series, but Dick barely has any that show up in more than one of his own runs.

>>149164325
Orca

>>149162569 (OP)
probably because it was written by Tom Taylor, a bad writer

>>149164325
Amy is by far the best.

Probably nobody remembers him but I liked Gannon from Grayson’s run. There was a funny page where he assumes Dick was raised by two gay dudes before Dick tells him one was a butler.

>>149164337
All coomers need to die

>>149163899
Was yet another person who went to that damn circus and saw Dick's parent's go splat.

>>149163890
I think Zanni from Watters' run are going to be the two left dragons too. Dick's been needing a higher tier villain for a long ass time

>>149162569 (OP)
cuz it disappointed

>>149164864
That's at least a couple of hundred potential archnemeses right there just waiting for their time to shine!

>>149164325
dammit I was gonna say Wally, well I guess Dick really is in need of original supporting cast

>>149163986
>His run was so boring that it made me re-read the entire Ric Grayson era again
that's bullshit, Taylor's run was boring but it doesn't compare to how retarded the Ric saga was

>>149163643
>If there's no conflict, if there's no drama, why should I care?
Cape fans are so deep-fried they can't stand seeing a healthy couple that doesn't hate each other, holy shit, never complain about spider-man drama again

>>149163934
>>149164864
so what part of that is "cool MO" or "politically relevant in today's times" like OP claimed?

>>149167934
He uses a vacuum cleaner gun to suck out people's hearts, what's not to get? It's a metaphor.

>>149167204
Why Wally? Wally rarely shows up.

>>149167284
If the writer is bad.....
And Taylor is not one of the good ones.

>>149167934
His day job is a pharmaceutical CEO so his whole character is “big pharma bad”. He also primarily targeted homeless people as part of his background.

>>149164864
How many people have seen that happen at this point? Is there a list?

>>149170039
They died during a performance event, there has to be at least a couple hundred people who saw them die.

>>149170122
I know there was a whole crowd of people, but I'm specifically asking about named important characters.

>>149165357
How is the Dan Watters run?
I've like Watters other books but I've not kept up with Niightwing since midway through Taylors run

>>149171042
What, are you crazy? That was great, NML, Brubaker's Batman. Things started to get bad in Hush.

>>149171042
He hasn't put any effort into Nightwing. If sales continue to decline, some change will be necessary.

>>149170151
Bette

>>149170039
>Bruce
>Tim
>Raptor
>A Talon from CoO
>Heartless

>>149171042
It’s alright.
The gang shit is standard superhero stuff but there’s some interesting stuff sprinkled in with Zanni. Dick and Babs are in character, and Watters is doing what some people were crying for Taylor to do when he made Dick a billionaire.

>>149172692
I think this run is greatly hampered by the art.

>>149172716
Yeah you can tell Onions doesn’t give a fuck about Dick because his work here is so much worse than his RHATO stuff lol

>>149163890
Heartless wasn't that bad. His backstory is solid beyond watching Dick's parents die like everybody else, him being partially a cyborg sets him apart from the rest of Dick's shitty street level villains, and he's more than a generic assassin. Could've at least been Dick's token rich villain.

The problem is mostly Taylor tried stretching his story out 40 issues when he should've been like 12 or 18 issues max. Or at least Dick defeating him in the first arc and him stewing in the background for a couple more arcs before bringing him back.

>Heartless
Did Dick defeat him with a Keyblade?

>>149174777
He defeated him with words

>>149162569 (OP)
Heartless is just a shittier version of James Jr from Black Mirror. They're both sociopaths since childhood, serial killers, and target Dick because he's a empathetic and compassionate individual.

>>149164573
nta, but from what I remember of the issues she appeared in, she was a pretty interesting character in her own right and had a personality that would have been fun to play against Nightwing as an occasional frenemy.

I don't follow Nightwing but what the fuck do you mean he's a billionaire now?

>>149175617
Alfred was a secret billionaire and when he died he left everything to Dick despite there being other Robins and his daughter Julia.

>>149175737
Wow, that's kind of a dick move there, Mr. Pennyworth.

>>149175737
and what about this Julia? does she show up again? Alfred being a "secret billionaire" sounds retarded

>>149176325
I think the last time she showed up was the Joker book that ended in 2022.

And yes Alfred being a secret billionaire is retarded.

>>149176372
would be just as retarded if this Julia doesnt become an adversary to Dick for stealing her birthright

>>149175617
>now
Nightwing was always rich. His parents had enough money that Dick could afford to buy an old building in Bludhaven in his original run.

>>149177131
yeah but that's not the same as being a goddamn billionaire

I wanted to know why Dan Jurgens put Catwoman among Nightwing's enemies. Damn, he put her next to molesters like Slade and Tarantula.

>>149177571
she constantly flip-lops in DC's eyes

I still lol that Taylor had Dick put up a big statue of Alfred in Bludhaven. Imagine being some poor person and having to look at a statue of the butler of the rich guy who just showed up in town one day

>>149177571
Why are all the Batman villains there? I get Nightwing will always be a Batman spin-off, but guys like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, Scarecrow or Bane have no particular relationship with Dick Grayson.

They could have put Professor Pyg, Flamingo, Red Hood, Trigon or Brother Blood if they didn't want the page to be so empty.

>>149177571
Why are all the Batman villains there? I get Nightwing will always be a Batman spin-off, but guys like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler or Bane have no particular hatred for Dick Grayson.

They could have put Professor Pyg, Flamingo, Red Hood, Gordon Jr, Trigon or Brother Blood if they didn't want the page to be so empty.

>>149177571
Why are all the Batman villains there? I get Nightwing will always be a Batman spin-off, but guys like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, Scarecrow, Mad Hatter or Bane have no particular hatred towards Dick Grayson.

They could have put Professor Pyg, Flamingo, Red Hood, Gordon Jr, Trigon or Brother Blood if they didn't want the page to be so empty.

>>149178488
>>149178527
At least Harvey is there considering their history

>>149178527
Dick Grayson was created in 1940 and was very present in Batman comics until at least the end of the 70s. In other words, almost all of Batman's villains originated as Batman and Robin villains.

>>149179083
Yeah that’s why DC retconned him out of most of their first meetings lol

>>149178527
they're shared villains anon, and a lot of them fall under Nightwing's domain. someone like Hush would strictly be a Batman villain, but others like Penguin or Black Mask would be DIck's targets as well

>>149163980
TBF we already saw what happens when Blockbuster knows Nightwing is Dick Grayson. Who wants to see Nightwing: Born Again AGAIN?

>>149164325
Spoiler started out as a one-off character in Dixon's Detective Comics run before continuing into his Robin run. By that measure, the original NTT characters should count. Or definitely Dick's girlfriend characters like Joker's Daughter or Flamebird.

If I could build an extended supporting cast from for Nightwing it would be...
>Oracle as the girlfriend and girl in the chair. She suits up when it gets serious.
>Jericho as a close friend. A clear tie to the Teen Titans.
>Sonia Branch as an awkward ex who administers the Pennyworth Foundation
>Amygdala (reformed and medicated) employed as security at the Pennyworth Foundation.
>Amy Rohrbach as a Bludhaven PD Captain. Phillip Addad as Chief of Police.
>The Runoffs (including Defacer) as a bunch of Bludhaven frenemies. Like the Flash Rogues, but less evil.
>Robin (Damian) and Ravager, as Nightwing's two former proteges, show up occasionally.
>Batman, Superman, and the Titans show up but not as superheroes, only for day-in-the-life stuff.

>>149179571
replace Damian with Tim and you've got it

>>149177571
I don’t know what the fuck is going on with riddler here, but he looks really unsettling. He looks less like an intellectual genius with a chip on his shoulder, and more like some creepy rapist in cosplay.
>>149179571
The Runoffs would work really well in that role, but didn’t a bunch of them get killed off for some stupid reason, or am I remembering that wrong?

>>149179622
Tim was never Nightwing's sidekick. Prodigal wasn't about Tim learning to be Dick's Robin, it was about Nightwing learning to be Batman.
>>149179681
Seeley killed Giz at the end of his Nightwing run. The rest are still around. Mouse, Thrilldevil, Stallion, and Grimm are still around. Maybe add Nite-Wing to shake it up.

>>149179778
>Tim was never Nightwing's sidekick
I'm not saying he was, just that I'd rather see Tim than Damian in...just about everything

>>149179778
For whatever reason I thought that Stallion got killed off as well. My bad. I do hope that they show up again. They kinda of help differentiate Blüdhaven from Gotham a bit.

>>149179358
DC making stupid decisions, color me surprised

>>149179813
Tim sucks and his relationship with Nightwing hasn't been interesting since the first Dixon run.
Only reason to include Tim in this is to embrace Tim as the NEET "he had so much potential" manchild and have Nightwing give him shit about still being Robin in his early 20s.

>>149181732
>Tim sucks
literally

>>149181876
cocks

>>149181732
alright Morrison we know it's you come on

Is the Taylor run better than Rebirth stuff?

>>149183641
Tim Seeley run >>>>>>>>>>> Tom Taylor.

>>149183641
>>149184191
Humphries > Seeley > Watters so far > Taylor > Ric

>>149163643
>when it was Redondo
rick leonardi was good too

>>149184695
Ric(Jurgens) >>>>>>>> Taylor >>>>>>>> Ric(Lobdell)

>>149181876
imagine seeing Stephanie's honkers and still choosing a guy over her... that bussy must be too good

>>149189127
Tim is the one getting his bussy spread open.

>>149190022
he's a switch at worst, none of the Robins are bottoms except maybe Steph

>>149183578
Is that an insult or a complement?
Nightwing has so much going on for him and Tim has been failing to grow as a character for two decades.

>>149191286
an insult because Morrison loves Damian

>>149189127
>imagine seeing Stephanie's honkers
Flat as an ironing board

>>149191938
>hedoesntknow.jpg

>>149162569 (OP)
I enjoyed the run, didn't think it was peak or anything but had decent fun reading it. My biggest issue was that everything felt too easy. Nightwing's identity gets exposed 3 times, and each time a cop out reason is given for why his identity isn't exposed. The Titans protect him from all the people who don't like the philanthropy he is doing in Bludhaven, Dick and Wally take down a super secret assassin guild that apparently even Batman didn't know about in literally 1 issue, arresting every single member. Just felt like there were never really any serious stakes or consequences.

>>149191340
When Tim appears he's Dick 2.0. Boring at best, but destructive at worst, because his one defining character trait is being "the smart one".
When Damian appears he's blunt and abrasive and is abrasive. He's not defined by power-levels but by personality.

If they were willing to do something different with Tim (like Seeley did) then it'd work. Otherwise, keep him far the fuck away from this title.

>>149177277
No it's not but it still filthy rich. It's not like he didn't had a billionaire ready to catch him if he falls short. Money had never been a problem for the Batfam.

>>149192309
Jason was created as Dick 2.0, and it went wrong, they changed it, it kept going wrong. They killed Jason and created Tim, who was different, he wasn't an orphan, he lived with his father and wasn't a child adopted by Bruce, he had friends at school.

>>149177131
>>149192525
You're misremembering. Dick's parents didn't have a lot of money, Lucius just knew what he was doing when trading on it.
He probably got a few million dollars. Enough to buy and fix a run-down 8 unit MDU in a lower class neighborhood of a dying city, rent out a chop shop, and build his tricked out car.

>>149192525
Except for this bitch.

>>149193104
The second after she found out Dick was a billionaire thanks to Alfred, she ran to Bludhaven to suck his dick.

>>149192525
anon Im sure the Graysons saved up a little and were quite smart with their finances but if they were filthy rich they wouldn't be making ends meet by being fucking trapeze artists for a travelling circus

What's the current Nightwing timeline look like?
Remember when Zero Hour happened and they compressed everything from 1968 through 1983 into a single year?

>>149192724
Post the page or the number of issue or I write this off as your hcs.
>He probably got a few million dollars.
So filthy rich.
>>149193914
Save that for Dixion. Dick had enough to buy a building with his inheritance. It's not like DC hadn't been consistent at portraying the graysons as some sort of pseudo-celebrities.
>>149193104
> Gordon's daughte
> doesn't work
> has no students loans
> somehow manage to pays her flat and bills like a strong independent batgirl
She is quite the wonder.

>>149195304
If I'm not mistaken, Babs had a technology company that went bankrupt.

>>149195304
Big difference between a few million and a few billion

I always read it as if Waynecorp was an endless bunch for them. Dick even ordered anyone to be employed.