Why do they keep making him evil?

>>149250610 (OP)
Telepathy and baldness are both inherently menacing traits.

>>149250610 (OP)
It's probably the eyebrows.

>>149250610 (OP)
hes one of the most dangerous people in the xmen. he could kill billions with just thoughts if he wanted to. ofc theyre gonna explore that concept.

>>149250610 (OP)
telepathy is an inherently evil power there is no moral way to invade and rape someone's mind

>>149250610 (OP)
He white comic writers can't comprehend a story where whites aren't evil.

>>149250610 (OP)
They're not making him evil (well, decent writers don't). Just flawed and having skeletons in the closet. Because that's what a person training child soldiers would realistically have. You're convincing a bunch of young people to become dedicated to your cause and willing to die for it. Imagine if someone did this to your son and then he got killed, how would you feel as a parent?
>>149250653
There's something to this but it also seems kind of arbitrary and hypocritical. Like, there are moral ways to shoot someone with a bullet, right? That's why /co/ worships someone like Punisher or Rorschach, because they take down le real scum without remorse!! Okay, let's conceptualize an edgy telepath who invades and rapes the minds of criminals. Did they become based like Punisher or Rorschach in your eyes? No probably not. Therefore it was never about morality in the first place. It's about what kind of power fantasy you're comfortable with. /co/ just so happens to be comprised of that one kind of retard whose power fantasy centers around "punch someone in the face". Very direct, physical, masculine. Telepathy is not that, it's cunning and subversive. Therefore, I conclude that the real reason /co/ seethes about telepathy is because it's not a traditionally masculine power.

>>149250610 (OP)
Just look at Bezos, the current President of the US, that bald Jew in the current US administration, the commissioner of the NBA, Lex Luthor, and etc. What do they all have in common? They are bald and evil.

>>149250702
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qckWhsw-RZM

>>149250695
To add to this, note the presentation of, say, White Queen vs Purple Man.

>>149250610 (OP)
you mean realistic? what else can a psychic mutant be other than pure evil?

>>149250610 (OP)
They don't? Name ONE bad thing that Chuck ever did? You can't, because he's always right

>>149250610 (OP)
Because all balds are frauds

>>149250823
I had a whole list of things, but I seem to have forgotten them all. How strange.

>>149250823
Mind controlled and erased the memories of his friends because it personally became a personal conflict for Xavier. Mindwiped Cyclops (and the other X-men) into forgetting about Vulcan and his friends and how they died saving Cyclops and the other X-men. Lusting after teenage Jean Grey. Constantly forgave a mass murder and terrorist like Magneto. Pardon all the evil mutants because they were mutants. Got a bunch of innocent Skrull mutants killed because they believed in Xavier.

>>149250653
>muh rape

>>149250610 (OP)
Because it's easier than writing the character they want to be cool to be actually cool.

>>149250923
>Mindwiped Cyclops (and the other X-men) into forgetting about Vulcan and his friends and how they died saving Cyclops and the other X-men.
Based
>Lusting after teenage Jean Grey
Based, I'd do the same
>Constantly forgave a mass murder and terrorist like Magneto
Based. A nigga should have some loyalty
>Pardon all the evil mutants because they were mutants
Based. Stick to your own
>Got a bunch of innocent Skrull mutants killed because they believed in Xavier
Based. Skrulls are a race of genocidal maniacs who should be exterminated from the universe just like the brood

>>149250695
>Like, there are moral ways to shoot someone with a bullet, right?

Yeah. There's a difference between shooting a man between the eyes, and shooting him in the back.

>Therefore it was never about morality in the first place.

Ah, so your post isn't in good faith. You just want to hold some sort imagined sense of superiority over others. It was never about anything else in the first place.

>>149250702
Kek deluulu

>>149250610 (OP)
he always was

>>149250610 (OP)
Bald, eyebrows, mind control

>>149250610 (OP)
Lex Luthor is supposed to be evil dumbass

>>149250610 (OP)
Because these people have daddy issues

>>149250695
>You're convincing a bunch of young people to become dedicated to your cause and willing to die for it.
So every nation ever?

>>149250629

and yet magneto that has a much bigger kill count than anyone not named cassandra nova or the phoenix is someone theyve been trying to clean up and sanitize while keeping his shithouse personality in tact, make it make sense

>>149250610 (OP)
To subvert your expectations

>>149251473
Oh course a baldy would deny this.

>>149250610 (OP)
Because he's a bald paraplegic, it's not sexy. Give him a working pair of legs and a head of hair and watch the 180

>>149250610 (OP)
Modern writers can't conceive of a man committing questionable actions for the sake of his ideals unless he's a designated sympathetic target, i.e. Magneto.

>>149250695
>It's about what kind of power fantasy you're comfortable with. /co/ just so happens to be comprised of that one kind of retard whose power fantasy centers around "punch someone in the face". Very direct, physical, masculine. Telepathy is not that, it's cunning and subversive. Therefore, I conclude that the real reason /co/ seethes about telepathy is because it's not a traditionally masculine power.

I think that says much more about your mentality than most of /co/ (which as a reminder is not a hivemind), but you do you, sister.

>>149250923
Enslaved an alien AI for years to power his Danger Room

>>149250610 (OP)
Evil? The guy pimping distressed teenagers out for his swimsuit specials?

>>149250610 (OP)
I think it's the wheelchair

>>149251460
>You just want to hold some sort imagined sense of superiority over others.
Funny you say that, when that's exactly what the whole argument over telepathy being a more immoral power than direct violence is. Let's discuss this dichotomy you presented, shooting your enemy between their eyes or shooting him in the back. The former is allegedly more honorable. Why? Allegedly because you're being upfront and direct, theoretically giving the enemy the chance to fight back.
First, this is proving my point about the sentiment of viewing direct violence over cunning deceit as more honorable.
Second, like I said, this is an arbitrary standard. What if your enemy is just inherently less skilled and has worse reaction time than you? Then no matter how upfront you are, he won't be able to fight back effectively, so in practice you giving him the change to fight back means nothing. What if you already got the enemy defeated and standing on his knees where he can't effectively defend himself? What's the difference between shooting in the eyes and shooting in the back then?
And if we accept the enemy is despicable enough to where he doesn't deserve mercy and must be murdered either way, then there's literally zero practical purpose to these notions of honorable murder aside from making you feel better about it.
You're basically saying "I am willing to hold myself to a highly specific set of standards that only exist to stroke my ego".

>>149250629

>>149253440
Something else I forgot to add.
If your enemy is evil and your aim is to kill him either way, why would you even want to be "honorable" and give him a chance to defend himself in the first place? You're creating an opportunity for him to potentially win, kill you, and continue inflicting evil. Isn't this inherently being selfish and reckless, prioritizing combat as a sport for the sake of it over actually achieving the goals combat is used for? Where the hypothetical chance to say to yourself "I gave the enemy all the opportunities to win and I still came out on top, I am so fucking cool" is more important than any harm the enemy might cause should you fail. So again, if you accept murder as a viable solution, then any code of honor you attach to it of "how ethically murder must be done" is going to be arbitrary and meant to stroke one's ego more than for any practical purpose.

>>149250610 (OP)
Why do they keep making abysmally awful events about how he dindu nuffin?

>>149250610 (OP)
All telepaths in all media are evil, you can't prove me wrong.

>>149250617
FPBP

>>149250610 (OP)
because he obviously has the evil gene, he's bald

>>149250610 (OP)
Because they've permanently twisted him into a misguided and manipulative mentor whose message of peace and co-existence is no longer relevant or realistic when mutants get mass genocided by the universe every other week. The only way to reconcile the ineffectual nature of his co-existence message is to either make him kind of a shitty mentor or to completely flip him on his head and basically make him a slightly less extreme Magneto.

>>149254673
>by the universe

now come on you know the first time was by his sister, the second time was by Wanda because she was being mind controlled by Charles on behalf of his friend Magneto etc etc

>>149254706
>by Wanda because she was being mind controlled by Charles
Nuh uh it was because Doom tried to harness the Life Force

>>149250695
It's a fiction thing. You can have your hero shoot someone and they just die in an unrealistically quick fashion. You can have two people beating the fuck out of each other but they have this unrealistic stoic bravado powering through broken rib cages without so much as tearing up or grimacing.
Rape or in this case mindrape is a bit different, it's something that has a portrayal hinging on a certain uncomfortable prolonged reaction from its victim as we the audience are put into an intimate range with it as a result. If you don't have that reaction, it comes off as too inconsequential, if you do, then forcing the audience to see the person on the receiving end not simply hurt but put into a kind of suffering and mental anguish makes us inherently view it as an irredeemably evil act because we're put up close with the suffering.
We tend to clean up violence a lot in movies, when a bullet hits, you don't really see someone dragging their body, crying in pain and gasping for air a lot outside of like horror movies or more realistic films like Unforgiven. So your brain isn't really registering the horror of someone being hit with a bullet as a result most of the time

Who is the most trustworthy mutant telepath?

>>149255101
Ironically, Emma Frost.

>Professor X is a known manipulative tool
>Jean Grey goes insane and tries to blow up the universe or turns people gay
>Quentin Quire is just a complete dirtbag
>The Stepford Cuckoos are Emma Frost without the maturity or restraint
>Psylocke is, like, two people now or something?
>All of Emma's bitchiness and manipulativeness are out on the surface and there for you to see while her use of telepathy is relatively restrained

>>149255101

Mastermind and that's because he doesn't even pretend to be a good person.

>>149255101
Psylocke, the current one. Betsy is too stupid to be competent but Kwannon despite being a "second-rate" telepath gets shit done better than people give credit for and has a sense of morality

>>149255101
I don't know, probably Backstabber or Double-cross or someone like that

>>149254714
right, Doom tried to harness the life force and the necessary way of doing that was creating Charlie n' Erik's wet-dream world where mutants rool and flatscans drool

>>149250610 (OP)
he runs a mutant death squad full of teenagers, there's not a good thought in that man's mind

>>149255148
Ok waifufag

>>149250610 (OP)
The new writers have collectively daddy issues.

>>149250629
The "concept" is that he can, but won't. That's the reason xmen exists in first place.
They want to make him an antagonist because they want to make Magneto the saviour figure for mutants and they need the dichotomy.

>>149250610 (OP)
Does anyone have the picture of the professor X with the big gold helmet at the big garden party? I can't find it and don't know where to look

>>149257125
>death squad
Under him they were more like first responders. Like paramedics or firefighters. Gathered specifically for resolving crises involving mutants.

>>149250610 (OP)
x-men, specifically Age of Apocalypse, is a moral and political parable warning of the dangers of social darwinism. there is no scenario where someone can always keep the moral high ground when having to struggle with race wars or political upheaval. fascists know this, and that is why leftist organizations are infiltrated and why leftist organizations are challenged with moral dilemmas by the ruling power to compromise both their morale as well as public perception.

xavier, having psionic powers, represents both a psychological representation of the human mind in scientific terms, but also a more mystical literary tool because he uses the astral plan to navigate and explore, so struggles between good and evil will inevitably appear in storytelling.

if x-writers were TRYING to make him evil, they're stupid enough to do it more haphazardly in very hamfisted ways, like what x-writers have done to beast.

to be fair however, in the krakoa arc, it was revealed that xavier has used and would use his psychic powers to control the minds of world leaders and never allow them to engage in nuclear war, which is based, regardless of how you see xavier, whether it be for his own personal benefit or (what is more likely) preventing the deaths of millions or billions

>>149250695
this anon is on the right track

>>149250610 (OP)
Because MLK was proven wrong and Malcom X right

>>149255101
>groomed by dark beast in generation x minus 1
>lived with lumpenproletariat morlocks
>groomed by and active member of bourgeois hellfire club
>is a snob
>shit on regular beast when he was the only one who wanted to put her back together after she shattered
>shit on cyclops for "being a beta" when he was second guessing alienating core members of the x-men like beast so he could do his own death squad shit and morally align with magneto
>vicariously pushes rightclops and mutancy to a fascist ethnostate like krakoa
>restrained telepathy is being shrewd, not benevolent

FUCK no. you're dead wrong

>>149250932
Okay that's it, you like men now

>>149255148
>groomed by dark beast in generation x minus 1
>lived with lumpenproletariat morlocks
>groomed by and active member of bourgeois hellfire club
>is a snob
>shit on regular beast when he was the only one who wanted to put her back together after she shattered
>shit on cyclops for "being a beta" when he was second guessing alienating core members of the x-men like beast so he could do his own death squad shit and morally align with magneto
>vicariously pushes rightclops and mutancy to a fascist ethnostate like krakoa
>restrained telepathy is being shrewd, not benevolent

FUCK no. you're dead wrong

>>149250990
Groomed 16 year old Dani Moonstar and gave her an orgasm while she was just in a bra and panties.

>>149255101
xavier, cable, nate grey

>>149257703
pretty sure that was a compromised situation? i feel like you're taking out some context, like he was possessed or out of his mind for some reason

>>149250923
>>149250990
didn't he supress the danger room knowing it was sentient/sapient which is where the character Danger comes from? feels like Danger should be a more prominent Marvel character

>>149257689
and when i say groomed by dark beast, i mean groomed to be evil iirc. not sexually

>>149257714
It was his Dark side. Proto-Onslaught.
So technically still Xavier

>>149257761
it's not much of a transgression if everyone has a dark side, and it's more likely a psychic has to deal with that problem

might as well be a character big arc where everyone deals with their dark side at once and then see who comes out on top on their way to be as the most benevolent and fix themselves before everyone else (beast literally already did that before x-writers reverted it for no fucking reason)

>>149255148
Zoomer retard. Emma is one of the worst offenders

>>149255148
No. God no. She is far and away one of the absolute worst. God if there's one thing I hate the most about 2000s on onward X-men it was someone at the top pushing Emma as Queen X-slut.

>>149257610
Interesting take if a little schizo

>>149258643
It was Morrison writing her that made her popular (and honestly no one has written her as well since) but I enjoyed Emma's ruthless and completely indulgent use of her powers, opposed to those like Jean who never crossed the line, or Xavier who seemed to ride the line. The later whitewashing and attempts to turn Emma into Jean light were pathetic

>>149250610 (OP)
Marvel forces their what if scenarios filled with shock value into the 616 so that they can make short term gains while knowingly or unknowingly trying to run LCS's outta business. Hickman had a minorly more interesting idea because they were willing to commit more to an semi-original idea of an ethno-state that the X-Men should've eventually saw as a corruption of their ideals they have to overcome as well. Y'know an actually good handling of THE "metaphor" we all get tired of.
Anyway, their attack on the DM is why they feel comfortable with saying shit like
>continuity doesn't matter
>enraged fan is an engaged fan
They say this shit to tire out fans from going to their LCS and so they can control sales.
The only reasons they backtrack on these things is to prevent massive blowback and death threats (death threats is understandable, I don't want to have any sort of doubt that my safety is in jeopardy).
Professor X is just another casualty of all these reasons alongside neo-liberalism being a constant effort to subvert itself and try to make more money with less effort and simplistic, dumbass plots.

>>149258742
>Jean who never crossed the line,

Jean literally murdered an entire species

the Phoenix is all her, it's been made explicitly clear many times that the Phoenix force is simply the power and the actions are all the personality of the host

why the fuck do any one of you like the X-men? Like all of these telepaths, mutants, etc are just soooo...fucked up.
They're all just a bunch of pricks who think they know better all the while they look handsome and somehow get the power of reality manipulation cause of a X-gene. meanwhile, blob, beak, chamber, etc all get deformities and are just disabled.

...what a world huh? Who from the OG gen of xmen is even a good person without them being a pedophile, technical rapist through psionics, or even a hypocritical delusional bastard?

>>149258917
>Who from the OG gen of xmen is even a good person
Bobby?

>>149250610 (OP)
father figure bad

>>149258827
To be fair she was overwhelmed by a cosmic force and not exactly of sound mind at the time, and we saw with the Phoenix 5 the impact that has on the hosts. The only one who could really successfully use it was Rachel
>>149258917
How O.G are you talking? Probably Bobby, Warren, Kurt, Storm to an extent, Banshee, Longshot, Dazzler...

You can only invade people's heads so many times before it starts to AAAAAAAAAAAHH

>>149258917
Fucked up characters are interesting, anon

>>149250610 (OP)
Look at his design. It was planned from the start. A good bildungsroman always has the students surpassing or beating their teachers. Unfortunately Marvel editorial fucking loves the academy status quo so any character development has to be repeated every few years. Claremont broke the cycle for a good long while but nostalgia drives sales more than sex, so back came good Professor.

>>149250653
are there any heroes who hate telepaths?

>>149259455
I think Jessica Jones has expressed a general dislike of them.

>>149255148
>Ironically, Emma Frost.
Eh, Emma got character assassinated when they did Inhumans vs X-Men.

>>149258742
>but I enjoyed Emma's ruthless and completely indulgent use of her powers
Yeah that really was cool the way she single handily justified every negative opinion and fear people have towards mutants.

>>149257669
*Puts on tin foil* Never

>>149250610 (OP)
Imagine having to hear everyone's thoughts, all the time, nonstop.

>>149253481
>>149253440
well said, all correct. telepathy is an inherently *creepy* power. if it's being used like a weapon, it's exactly as moral as the cause its championing.

>>149259324
>To be fair

the X-Men broke her out of space jail and refused to allow her to be punished for her own actions

this caused war between the Shi'Ar and Earth ffs

they literally turned the entire planet into a prison specifically because the X-Men in particular were being dicks to other species and needed to be contained

literally the brony gene

>>149260062
The degree to which the x-men "protect their own" is ludicrous. They did the same shit when a world tribunal called Magneto out for all the shit he dead. Shit the X-men know he did of his own volition. Because they risked their lives to stop it themselves.
>But they were scared he wouldn't get a fair trial.
Well not was he the one who manipulated the trial to his own needs

>>149258970
...you know what, fuck yeah. I love that blonde ice-using motherfucker.
Something about him makes me like him ALOT...not in a gay way.
>>149259324
Those 3, yeah.
Storm? Hell no, I've seen that bitch act like an asshole to everyone, especially PETER, so fuck her in general with her ego ass attitude.
>Banshee
the girl or guy, apparently there's two.
>Longshot and Dazzler
you know what, yeah, love those 2.
>>149260062
>>149260097
Yeah, maybe those sentinels are onto something, lmao.

>>149260200
>the girl or guy, apparently there's two.
Girl one was just Syren using her pops name when he was dead. They were both mostly alright.

>>149250610 (OP)
High intelligence tends to go hand in hand with lack of morality, or at least shady morality without proper parenting. Something like "I'm too smart for the rules to apply to me. They're for the idiots.". This was a thing before Rick Sanchez explained it. I believe it's called Criminal Genius, the tendency for highly intelligent people to rationalize criminal and deviant acts, and to act on perceived fallacies in laws.

>>149250610 (OP)
He's a white male. That's pretty much it.

>>149250629
>he could kill billions with just thoughts if he wanted to.
Nah, I'd win.

>>149250610 (OP)
Lex Luthor? Well he's a villain, it'd be surprising if they made him a good guy.

>>149257504
that's the legal description yes
>>149257397
>he can, but won't
there's no guarantee there, the 90s show and films portray him as this purely selfless person but even in the 70s he was always shown to have a bit of a dark side or have skeletons in his closet, it's hardly a new thing

>>149250610 (OP)
The people who used to make compelling villains no longer work for Marveld

>>149250610 (OP)
Lex Luther? He's like THE bad guy. He stole 40 cakes! That's as many as 4 tens! And that's terrible!

>>149250695
>>149257610
baffling to me that these are the only intelligent posts actually discussing the topic at hand but oh well never change /co/
>>149253357
>which as a reminder is not a hivemind
it's not April 1st anon

>>149250695
>They're not making him evil (well, decent writers don't). Just flawed and having skeletons in the closet. Because that's what a person training child soldiers would realistically have.

After a point when you have too many skeletons you stop being a good guy who made tough decisions, you become evil and are now just trying to justify yourself.

>>149262836
>After a point when you have too many skeletons
That's a result of comics being perennial. You want to keep doing, conceptually, the same story without completely retreading what was already done. So you have to add more and more
But at the same time it's like was Shade wrong to send hundreds of children to certain death until it finally worked(yes, he became an inhuman monster)

>>149250610 (OP)
I wish they would make Lex like his Justice Legaue Unlimited Counterpart in live action DC

>>149262900
You have to build into JLU Lex. You can't just go straight into the Lex that buys magic artifacts to control other rogue's powers and is overqualified for tasks designated to 12th level intellects. JLU Lex started from the bottom in STAS of just being a crooked businessman and evolved over the course of several seasons and appearances. JLU Lex is like Hugh Jackman playing Wolverine for the MCU after a decade.

>>149262876
>That's a result of comics being perennial
No it's a result of being poorly written.

>>149250629
>>149253475
Why doesn't SHIELD have something like blanks? Or anti-psychic helmets as standard issue? Or...anything? Actually every three-letter agency in the world should have some sort of defense against psychics.

>>149262876
>>149263025
no it's both, because Marvel insists on keeping 616 going with the same timeline since the 1960s eventually you have to introduce out-of-character twists and reveals just to keep fans interested and sell comics. why do you think stories like Civil War were super popular despite character-assassinating like half the cast? things get stale and writers have to resort to desperate methods, no matter their caliber of skill and creativity

>>149263048
It's so interesting how the perception of Civil War changed after the MCU's version which managed to not assassinate Stark's character. It went from iconic and popular to one of the worst events after reevaluation.

>>149263048
There's a world of difference between having a somewhat inconsistent backstory that's constantly getting stretched out and "Hello, Scott. The person I've raised and love as a son, I mind wiped the existence of your middle brother who died horrifically before Giant Sized 1" and "Ah yes, our Iconic training simulator is actually a sentient AI I keep locked up as a slave."

>>149263079
in mainstream audiences yeah but comic readers always knew Civil War was a hack story written to boost sales, there's too many Iron Man fans to collectively agree that his actions in the book were right for example
>>149263132
it's the nature of the industry anon, comics have always had the reputation of asspull twists and reveals and it's hardly a new thing in the 21st century. the problem in modern comics is there aren't enough stories to offset the asspull bullshit, and not for a lack of trying because even if the writing talent is there, the editors decline it in favor of ragebaiting fans into buying shit

>>149262801
Don't reply to yourself just to get attention, it's depressing to watch.

>>149263079
>It went from iconic and popular to one of the worst events after reevaluation.
That's just revisionism. Civil War was being seen for the stain on the company it was years before the MCU adapted it. In fact, it's fair to say the only people championing it were a vocal minority propping it up as the Watchmen of the 21st century.

>>149263199
It was successful at the time but it did so much damage for such short term success that it can hardly be called worth it.

>>149263199
keep your pathetic accusations to yourself, they are the only two posts with actual nuance about the thread topic and I stand by it

>>149263183
I think it is more the ongoing Iron Man fumbling that simply the flashpoint of Civil War. MCU shows how much Iron Man can add to a story and a collective but the comics spent too much time rehashing Stark as an addict to really capitalize on the character's potential and Civil War is kind of scapegoated for all that despite seemingly being unrelated.

>>149263241
fair, but it's not just Iron Man fans, Spidey fans especially hate that storyline because it directly led to the events of OMD, and Peter aligning with Cap from the start makes more sense

>>149263268
That's all true, too. These things kind of compound on each other and unless someone steps in and says "stahp" you end up getting things like Peter luck and the character eternally being shat on. Or like the OP alludes to and Xavier having 1 too many skeletons in his closet where he unintentionally crosses the moral event horizon.

I think one of the MCU actors mentioned RDJ telling them to be careful and protect their character or you'll end up with it being aimless, not having a real character arc, getting shat on, etc. This kind of stuck with me. We kind of see this playing out in the modern MCU. In the comics, there is no one really there to advocate for every individual character like an actor would advocate for their own. Instead over the course of decades, you have characters at the whims of whatever writer's biases and decisions can have these lasting directions for characters. It's kind of sad how there never anyone in charge who wants the best for everyone like you kind of saw with DCAU.

>>149263046
Psychic blockers are used by ONE and SHIELD. They were also used by Orchis. And at least in the case of SHIELD getting mental defense training has been part of the basic package for their agents since forever.

>>149255148
Well, she did teach ethics in the past. I assume she at least has a grasp on the subject in an academic sense, even if she doesn't always live it.

But it ought to be said that she's currently a member of the Illuminati and has somehow been cast as a voice of moderation there. If Stark got his way he'd have had her brainwash the whole human species. Her saying "Nah, that's gay" was the only thing that stopped that from happening. And I'm really not sure Xavier would have refused.

>>149250617
/thread

>>149250610 (OP)
YA BETTER RUN CHARLES

>>149263829
>Well, she did teach ethics in the past. I assume she at least has a grasp on the subject in an academic sense, even if she doesn't always live it.
It's always been weird that they keep making her double down on villainy, considering her decision to go good was because a bunch of kids got murdered and she never wanted that to happen again. You'd think that kind of traumatic development would stick, but I guess not.

>>149264930
She's been mostly good for the past several decades. There were those brief periods where the X-Men were pit against the Avengers, and then later against the Inhumans, but on the whole her track record isn't so bad.

>>149265046
>against the Inhumans
They had it coming, that was just a retarded attempt to get people to like Inhumans because Disney still didn't own the movie rights to the X-Men

>>149265046
>but on the whole her track record isn't so bad
We must not be reading the same books

>>149265052
>They had it coming
No, neither the X-men nor Inhumans deserved to be dragged into that shitty storyline

>>149263780
>They were also used by Orchis

still so weird that they named it after a famous testicle

>>149250610 (OP)
Bald = evil

>captcha: M0R0N2
nice

There is zero defense for his holocaust beam attack. None. That it hasn't been edited out of reruns is ridiculous when they expect you to root for this guy but he's just an asshole

>>149258917
>Who from the OG gen of xmen is even a good person without them being a pedophile, technical rapist through psionics, or even a hypocritical delusional bastard?
He's not OG OG, but Gambit I'd argue is a good man and hero that has had to do some bad things, but any time he does cross the line he gets called out for it and he acknowledges that it was an awful thing and tries to make amends for it. He's a character that never really gets a free pass and is one of the few X-Men that I felt didn't get tainted much during the Krakoa arc because he fucked off from the mainline stories and was doing things in Excalibur throughout most of the run

>>149265782
The holocaust beam is one of the few absolutely justified uses of his power though. If you have a terrorist about ready to kill you and blow up a plant, you fight him by any means necessary. The big mistake is not getting his ass in prison or killing him afterwards

>>149265841
it won't work on a Holocaust denier chud, it's not as effective as you think it is

>>149250610 (OP)
He's the X-Men's father figure, so he takes the brunt of the writers' never-ending daddy issues. Despite being objectively a worse father-figure in every regard, somehow Magneto has become the idealized fantasy father-figure of the X-books.

The X-book writers have chosen to make Xavier's dream a complete failure, so they could make Magneto's way look correct in comparison, and radicalize the X-Men around to his viewpoint, and as normie-repellent as the direction they've gone in may be, they're not going to stop unless the new movies force them to. The world they've crafted where Xavier is a failure and an irrelevance means he no longer has a role in his 'classic' form (and they've been pushing the idea that Xavier's no longer relevant and should go since at least 2003-4, Claremont kept trying to write him out back in the 80s, too), and trying to find something new for him to do kept leading them the path of making him more and more morally questionable, to the point of villainy. He'd had moral lapses in the past, but in the 2000s and beyond it just kept getting worse.

The choice to make Xavier's dream a failure is probably due to Marvel doubling down on the metaphor more and more, while IRL identity politics were strongly against things like integration and assimilation, though being asked to integrate and assimilate is less of an affront when you're a mutant and you don't really have your own separate culture, no matter how much your leaders insist you do.

It's probably also because he's a bald, too.

>>149257397
Somewhere along the line, "Xavier could mind control the whole world and force them to just shut up and accept mutants" went from being a sign of his moral strength to being treated as a failing on his part.

>>149265782
Reminder that in the actual 1992 cartoon, Magneto doesn't have the holocaust origin, his family are just civilian casualties in an unspecified war. The "holocaust beam attack" is just an online meme thing that started because the movies made the comic origin better known. X-Men '97 retconned the comic origin into the cartoon.

>>149265052
> inhumans had it coming because of out of universe drama
what's it like being a drooling retard

>>149265046
>She's been mostly good for the past several decades.
That's fair about most of the 90s after her coma, but from the 2000s onwards, it was a lot more like the X-Men came down to her level than she changed her ways and came up to theirs. She was the poster girl for telepaths abusing their powers for most of the 2000s (before Benis decided it should be teen Jean in the 2010s), but it was somehow OK because now she was abusing her powers for the X-Men.

>>149266239
nta but I'll make it simpler for you:
the Inhumans are a bunch of entitled faggots and they deserve everything bad, even worse than mutants because they're not even an oppressed race like mutants are

>>149250695
The thing is Punisher only shoots bad people, telepaths break into people's mind ona daily basis, like a creep checking people's houses

>>149266314
For 99% of their comics history, the Inhumans just lived in their secret city and wanted to be left alone, a polar opposite to the mutants, who are largely responsible for their own oppression by the way they behave, or to be fair, the way the psychopaths and monsters they keep choosing as 'community leaders' behave. Even every time the mutants finally read the room, realized nobody wanted them around and left to make their own nation, they never REALLY leave, and insist on imposing themselves onto humanity.

>>149263046
You'd think Magneto-style helmets to be basic equipment for Shield operatives.

>Inhumancels are coping and trying hard to defend their hack royal family

>>149266314
>the Inhumans are a bunch of entitled faggots
that's mutants you're thinking of

>>149250610 (OP)
Because he's a terrible person who pushes for subjugation rather than liberation.

>>149267602
He wants coexistence. He's got the proper immigrant mindset despite not being one.

>>149250610 (OP)
Because doom patrol did it first

>>149258700
i'm not schizo. improve your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills

>>149250617
This.

>>149266201
>this direction is normie repellent

it's also a fan repellent

>>149266438
The Punisher is a dickhead who don't believe in second chances. There was a villain who actually wanted to be a good guy and Punisher just kill him for his previous deeds despite trying to right his wrongs.

>>149268759
>this obscure DC thing that debuted mere months before X-Men and have been completely relegated ever since are actually superior and the better characters just because they came first bro you gotta believe me the X-Men are totally a ripoff bro

>>149266201
The whole thing honestly depresses me to a deeply profound level.

>>149269995
Hey don't act so smug. The X-men were doing even worse in their original incarnation and were reduced to reprint hell till someone basically hit a massive reset button.

>>149250617
>Telepathy and baldness are both inherently menacing traits.
Indeed.

>>149270071
I really miss this version of Scott, I miss DREAMS DON'T DIE.
Seems like the only people that get to be true blue boyscout heros anymore are Superman and Captain America

>>149270071
Can’t say this nowadays without being called a pussy

>>149270659
Seriously. Scott should be the Cap of the X-men. The guy who never gives in or breaks on their ideals and sense of hope. Instead they try to make him a generic badass turned him into a warped cult leader and if you're not just looking for GOTCHA moments to repost online it sucks.

>>149250610 (OP)

>>149267100
Magneto's helmet being telepathy-proof was a movie idea, wasn't it? In the comics that was Juggernaut's helmet, not Magneto's. When did the comics first start treating Magneto's helmet as a telepathy-blocker? I think Ultimate did it from the start, but does anyone know when a 616 book first did it?

>>149270811
I want to say it actually IS from the comics. I feel like I've seen it used as such. But I can't source an issue off hand. I know it was used as it's own telepathy projector before.

>>149270811
I remember it being the case in TAS but I could be wrong

>>149260062
>war between the Shi'Ar and Earth
When was this?

>>149250893
A+

>>149258827
>the Phoenix is all her,
1980s Marvel went out of their way to make Jean and the Phoenix separate things, so that she wouldn't be guilty of genocide. Unfortunately so many X-Men writers were more concerned with trying to make it be 'the real Jean' in Dark Phoenix Saga than with the implications for her if it was. Back in the 80s and 90s, editorial did their job and fought this, but now, deep into the Zombie Marvel era where nobody in their right mind is still reading, some absolute moron actually managed to do this.

>>149263048
>eventually you have to introduce out-of-character twists and reveals just to keep fans interested and sell comics.
Bullshit take

>>149270885
Could be anytime, the Shi'ar are always starting shit with someone. Classic jerks.

>>149271005
>t. Kree

>>149261826
>High intelligence tends to go hand in hand with lack of morality
No? Its the opposite.
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=126458
Actually the best place to find a sociopath is in prison, and thats because the average sociopath is literally too fucking stupid to empathize with other people. They literally cannot see from anothers point of view because they are too stupid to conceptualize it.
The popsci nonsense of "Criminal Genius", is more common in fiction than reality.

>>149250610 (OP)
Why do they insist on making Beast evil as well?
Dude quit the team after finding out about cyclop and wolverines kill squad only to lead his own one a decade on

>>149271146
The writers in the late 2000s were way too far up their own asses with the "Scott and Emma are the strong leaders making the hard choices and doing what needs to be done", the constant threat escalation to make them look right and necessary, and any character that dared question or challenge them had to be punished for it. Xavier got torn down to get him out of the way so they could take command, Nightcrawler got killed very soon after he dared question Cyclops running his own death squad, and Beast spent years being punished and demonized, with the fandom themselves so radicalized and retarded that they start calling him a "race traitor", Bendis pandered to the Beast hate a lot, by Krakoa he turns into an outright villain, now he's supposedly dead, and replaced by a clone who doesn't remember anything past the 70s.

>>149271146
These kind of writers can only make their own pets stand out by demonizing others. It's not enough that they make their characters right someone else has to be WRONG. And punished for questioning them.

>>149271282
And these X-fags WOULD be the kind of idiots who think fictional characters are agents of their own design.

>>149271282
>and replaced by a clone who doesn't remember anything past the 70s.

I don't understand why they needed the capoff point to be the 70s. Is it just because that was the last time Brevoort liked Beast or something

>>149271356
You could have gone well into the 90s or early 00s. But honestly the whole time displaced clone thing at all just crushes me. Because much like multiverse bullshit it doesn't work the way these retards want it to. The Beast we all knew and followed just went evil and is dead. Having a new one even with shared memories doesn't change that. It's not like just handing a kid a new toy after one breaks.

>>149271404
Welcome to comics

>>149271571
Fuck off. That kind of attitude is the dismissive shit that got shit this bad in the first place. It didn't USED to be like this. When Jean went evil it was actually a clone.

>>149269680
>it's also a fan repellent
Unfortunately a lot of the fans who bought into it and stuck around ended up getting as radicalized and insane as the characters, and get really angry at the suggestion of even trying to fix things and do something more commercial. Very much like it's theirs now and they'll never give it back.

It's always sad when you see oldfag fans from the 80s and 90s in denial that anything's changed since then, and in denial about what X-Men is now and who it's being made for.

>>149271330
>And these X-fags WOULD be the kind of idiots who think fictional characters are agents of their own design.
You can see some of it in this very thread, the people holding Captain America or the Inhumans responsible for Marvel's writers deciding to put them in awful X-Men stories.

>>149271356
I think it happened under the previous editor. Maybe they went pre-90s just to cut off any opportunity for people to claim he was already morally compromised by some of the Legacy Virus stories, but 80s would have been fine.

>>149271404
>The Beast we all knew and followed just went evil and is dead. Having a new one even with shared memories doesn't change that. It's not like just handing a kid a new toy after one breaks.
Too many such cases.

>>149271584
No it's your hangups that keep comics back

>>149250610 (OP)
Because mindrape is an evil power no matter how you paint the character as morally upright and "reluctant" to use his power. The world would maybe fear mutants because of Magneto levitating some steel on the news, but lots of people would just think he's cool as hell. They'd decide they'd better genocide mutants just to be sure when they found out that a decent percentage of them get the power to read minds and make people do things without anyone even knowing. All the world's leaders and generals would instantly become paranoid about the wrong guy being mindcontrolled into nuking Israel or Pakistan and fund all kinds of projects meant to safeguard against the mutant mindrape menace.

>>149271330
Shit sucks.
I said it before in thread but it really feels like the only X-Men held accountable for his fuck ups and openly states they were bad and tries to right the ship for past sins is Gambit, almost every other character like Magneto, Emma or Mystique get a free pass from the writers because they're mutants.
Fuck man, Krakoa and its writers swerving to make it a paradise instead of a commentary on cults and totalitarian states was a mistake and way of X was too little too late and did nothing to make the obsessive victims that saw Krakoa as a power fantasy think that it might be bad.
>>149271676
It really sucks because Cap is my second favorite cape guy behind Gambit but instead of being a little excited when he shows up in an X-Men run i just have to roll my eyes and brace for impact in prep for when the writer does something incredibly retarded and contrived with his actions

>>149271146
Didn't he quit the team for Cyclops Original one. Only to help Wolverines second death squad.
I feel like it was that moment and then the bastard Bendis that sealed Beast onto being a villian.

>>149271404
Actually, at this point with things as bad as they are, maybe they should give that treatment to all X-Men.
But it would probably end up like post rebirth Superman, where a hack like bendis would soon screw it all up, again.

>>149272139
>>149271676
That any one can look at this Krakoa shit and not just say they like it but argue it's one of the X-men's best eras is sickening.

>>149272268
>That any one can look at this Krakoa shit and not just say they like it but argue it's one of the X-men's best eras is sickening.
This, but the same for any era in this century.

>>149272139
Marvel's been in the shits since Avengers Disassembled.

>>149272487
>Marvel's been in the shits since Avengers Disassembled.
X-Men's been there since even before that, the moment they stopped thinking they were human and went all in on larping as a separate race was the point of no return.

>>149270725
>>149270071
Because he is a pussy. You don't make change by "doing the right thing" which conveniently falls under the oppressor's criteria of what the "right thing" is.

>>149250610 (OP)
One can't play in the mud wrestling pit without getting mud all over themselves. And he plays in the human mind

>>149271146
And why do they make Beast look shittier in every new book? He looked terrible during that "clones vs Wolverine " Krakoa ark, and now he looks like he's dying from meth, and nobody's saying anything to him.

>>149270849
Yeah...it's tinfoiled-lined.
That was a joke. But I remember from old comics that it pisses on psychic attacks. He explained this to Jean back when she was wearing her first shitty "green skirt and stupid mask" outfit when she tried to mind-fuck him. Scott had to pull some eye-beam ricochet shit to knock it off so she could knock Mags out.

>>149271096
Nice try, you mensa-level deviant. I see through that bullshit no jutsu.

>>149270849
Not as embarrassing as the wooden gun

>>149250610 (OP)
Why wouldn't Lex Luthor be evil?

>>149270811
there were hints here and there in earlier comics but it started being a concrete thing because of the 2000 movie

>>149271404
>It's not like just handing a kid a new toy after one breaks.
Even that is pushing, honestly.

>>149273667
because no one likes Beast, fuck him

>>149272520
This is the reason we can't have nice things anymore. The franchise is too mired in identity politics; and modern identity politics is so entrenched in the idea of domination rather than coexistence that the concept of basic moral integrity is treated as a betrayal.

>>149274807
I like Beast. Fuck you.

>>149274846
>rather than coexistence
suuuuure because that would suddenly fix everything, just live together in peace bro don't hate each other don't hold grudges or anything

>>149274944
t. lacking moral integrity

>>149274944
I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain this but you people keep proving there's no cap on stupid. COEXISTENCE was never meant to be an actual narrative goal. It was meant to be a motivation so the good guys would be good guys. Fighting so that one day the world that fears and hates them one day WON'T was their "With great power must also come great responsibility." It was their murdered parents in an alleyway. It was a moral center that gave them the motivation and will to fight evil. You are an idiot.

>>149272268
I always thought Hickman's plan was to make a parable between humans/mutants and mutants/post-humans, with mutants eventually being responsible for their own downfall, which I feel would have worked well. Of course, it ended up being racist humans as everything X-Men always is.

>>149274944
And when has feeding grudges improved things for any group? Besides outside bad actors that benefit from in-fighting, of course.

>>149274963
This, exactly. Fighting for the world that SHOULD be in the hopes it may become a reality and all that. It's really baffling that a lot of writers and fans of heroic characters can't seem to understand the importance of that value, and why deviating from it is so distasteful.

>>149274944
Think the civil rights movement would have gotten anywhere if everyone was preaching how darkie was going to make whitey pay for their sins and know their place in the new world order? You know how fucked up a message that would send to the readers if they were told the mutants never have a chance to achieve their dream of just being able to live normal lives with the rest of humanity and have to eternally be at war against them? Yes, coexistence has been the goal from fucking day one, and said by Xavier himself; The future humans aka mutants are coming, and they have all the chances in the world to help determine whether they’re welcomed with open arms or dreaded and fought against with tooth and nail. And at their numbers, coexistence is the ideal solution for everyone, even if it means making peace with former enemies on all sides.

How a fandom forgets shit even children understand is beyond me.

>>149274963
He's an idiot, but he's an idiot who doesn't care about what the X-Men used to be, and is 100% all in on mutants being exactly the same as a real world minority group, and being a real world minority group now means holding on to grudges about wrongs that were done to your ancestors decades or even centuries ago. Anon doesn't want equality or acceptance or peace, he wants his turn at being the oppressor, even if he was likely born too late to actually be oppressed. This is why modern X-Men lurches from 'minority group in the ascendance' power fantasies of mutants wiping their dicks across the entire universe, to oppression porn where they're on the brink of extinction and have to kill everyone who even vaguely dislikes them, because he's the target audience now.

>>149250695
/co/ BTFO’d by this post.

>>149275156
That was cause at least the other writers drank the kool-aid and thought all the mutant supremacist propaganda wasn’t a warning sign of how the mutants were falling into the exact same traps every “mutants first” group has fallen for, but an earnest declaration of their unity and strength and superiority. In other words, they swallowed their own story’s bait, hook line and sinker.

>>149257703
He already said based

>if you wear a metal helmet some telepaths are so retarded they mistake you for a robot
What did marvel mean by this?

>>149275544
wat

>>149257610
Thanks chatgpt very cool

>>149270659
that's more a function of how x-writers insist on having the enemies of mutants always be absurdly genocidal instead of merely racists who need to recognize the error of their ways, raising the stakes to the point that an idealistic response looks, at best, stupid, and usually fatally negligent for anyone in a leadership position.
>>149274846
>this standard feature of reality for all of history is the reason i'm mad right now
>also i will accuse others of identity politics while i wallow in it because i don't want to acknowledge the absolute truth that authorities almost never seriously change their ways willingly
>>149275505
mutants outside of a few old characters who are almost all supervillains aren't holding on to grudges. if they are mad, it's because non-mutants tried to exterminate them last tuesday and also a few weeks before that.

>>149275555
>jeet thinks every long post with suitable exposition is chatgpt
ngmi rajesh

>>149274963
>>149275285
I don't think both of you realize I'm actually agreeing on your points and I'm mocking the opposite lol

>>149275561
> mutants outside of a few old characters who are almost all supervillains aren't holding on to grudges
They still bitch about Genosha as though it weren’t a third world hellhole dictatorship that made North Korea look like paradise at any point, both before when it was run by actual slavers and after when Magneto was performing pogroms on humans and mutants trying to escape

Seriously, fuck Genosha

>>149275510
Again, stop replying to yourself. It's embarrassing.

That post didn't BTFO shit.
The first argument hinges on a statement that's both fallacious and paradoxical by claiming modern Xavier is morally gray, then framing his founding of the X-Men in an unequivocally evil light without any nuance in favor it.

The second one is even more fallacious, since it 1) portrays /co/ as a hivemind, and 2) supposes the distaste for telepathy is based in a stilted traditional masculine power fantasy, when the real issue is that telepathy is often used as both an instant-win button for characters getting their way through unscrupulous means for increasingly selfish reasons.

>>149275156
qrd? I skipped over a lot of Krakoa shit, what's this about post-humans?

>>149275608
>portrays /co/ as a hivemind
which is undeniable truth

>>149275614
More than one timeline where the mutants “lose” involve humanity using cybernetics to basically evolve themselves into post-humans, ensuring mutants are left behind in the evolutionary dust

>>149275561
>this standard feature of reality for all of history is the reason i'm mad right now
Unironically yes, because no one in their right mind wants to see a genre that's inherently speculative bogged down in pseudo-realism when you've got people flying around and shooting lasers from their eyes.

>also i will accuse others of identity politics while i wallow in it because i don't want to acknowledge the absolute truth that authorities almost never seriously change their ways willingly

I acknowledge it, but the fact of the matter is there's a world of difference between the classical school of fighting for civil rights; where you pressure the opposing side to appeal to morality while also holding you side to act in a dignified manner; and the modern school of thought where you demand restitution with interest while acting as dishonorable as possible.

>>149275573
My apologies then. It's hard to tell sometimes when there's so many people that legitimately feel that way these days.

there's a reason why Rightclops has the reputation, Scott simply does not miss

>>149275671
>My apologies then. It's hard to tell sometimes when there's so many people that legitimately feel that way these days.
it's alright I don't blame you, my wording wasn't exactly clear in stating my intention

>>149275561
>mutants outside of a few old characters who are almost all supervillains aren't holding on to grudges. if they are mad, it's because non-mutants tried to exterminate them last tuesday and also a few weeks before that.
I want you to acknowledge the reality that we didn't get to "humans trying to kill mutants" out of nowhere for no reason like Marvel so desperately want to pretend, and it's almost entirely the fault of people that are still allowed to be the 'community leaders' of the mutants, while the narrative is breaking it's back trying to bend over backwards and pretend Magneto, Mystique, etc, did nothing wrong, or were somehow fighting against oppression that was happening prior to humans even knowing mutants existed.

A curse on every X-Men writer who keeps trying to pretend mutants were a known thing and were being persecuted pre-UXM #1, or even worse, that they were numerous enough to have their own communities, just so they can try and pretend Magneto didn't make First Contact and declaration of a race war all at the same time. Prior to UXM #1, the very idea of mutants was /x/-tier stuff only schizos believed in. A few governments and intelligence agencies knew better, but everyone else had no idea.

Marvel need a 10 or even 20 year moratorium on X-books using human villains or Sentinels, to force the writers to break out of this narrative and do something else.

>>149266201
Something the "Magneto is right" crowd can never disapprove is how abusive Mags was to the OG Brotherhood. It's honestly fascinating how writers and readers still want to maintain Supes and Cap's idealism or Batman's no-kill rule but it's largely celebrated by the fanbase to make the X-Men more cynical and morally gray because "the dream doesn't work".

>>149271146
Cause he's the designated mutant of the group that disagrees with what Cyclops wants to do. He's the equivalent of the nagging sitcom wife who tries to stop her husband from doing whatever the main plot of the episode is, the audience tends to find the nagging wife annoying so the X-fags tend to dislike Beast.

>>149274944
>don't hold grudges
The Krakoa era had all the X-Men having zero problems living with Mystique, Apocalypse, Selene, and Sinister along with giving them diplomatic immunity and giving them seats to their governmental body.

>>149250695
>le
Post discarded

>>149276197

>>149275544
Telepathy kinda works on machines, btw

>>149276197
I don't get why the fuck the lion's share of X-Men would consider that arrangement for even half a second. In order for the whole of Krakoa to work it involves characters like Nightcrawler, Gambit and Storm to all collectively suffer brain damage so bad they shit their pants on the regular and can't even consider asking questions or have vocal disagreements about what's going on. Gambit especially. Considering he already has a trust but verify mindset on any deal that comes his way due to his upbringing and getting burned too often in life and Mystique tried to fuck on his relationship with Rogue in the past, Apocalypse turned him into Death and Sinister got Gambit involved in the Massacre, I don't see how in the fuck he'd entertain Krakoa's validity for even an attosecond and would fuck off back to the thieves guild or at the very least he'd push the rest of the crew to actually look into just what the fuck they were agreeing with.
God Krakoa sucked

>>149276371
Gambit was there because Rogue was there and it wasn't long before they relocated to Betsy's lighthouse in the UK.

>>149276427
>Betsy's lighthouse in the UK
qrd?

all this is why Peach Momoko's UXM is such a breath of fresh air, it feels like a mutants story that isn't afraid to brand itself as such yet is nothing like other X-Books on the market and as such doesn't fall into the same trappings as 616 X-Books in the past 15 years or so

>>149276471
It's a Captain Britain thing, don't worry about it.

>>149276371
Look, do you want your own libertarian, racial Micronation full of super models built on crime and the threat of global anihiliation or not?

>>149276685
no but I wanna know, I'm aware it's a Captain Britain thing that's why I asked I don't know what Betsy does anymore after she stopped being Psylocke

>>149276115
People treat Charles like The Chief.

>>149276947
I don't think most people are even aware of who The Chief is

>>149276333
Fuck yo gay little island

>>149276197
>giving them diplomatic immunity
not all of them <.<

>>149276947
what does Master Chief have to do with the X-Men

>>149269690
You didn't provide an example, but Punisher did this to Stilt-Man when he was trying to be a good guy during Civil War. Fucking prick

>>149275608
>telepathy is often used as both an instant-win button for characters getting their way through unscrupulous means
Name 3 times it happened

>>149278033
One thing I liked about Zdarsky's run on Daredevil was seeing Matt actually stick his neck out for old villains like Stilt-Man to try and rehabilitate them, and seeing them make actual progress towards becoming better people thanks to his efforts.

>>149250695
Happy that my son died for the glorious cause of mutant-kind!

>>149250610 (OP)
he's a white male in current day so he has to be evil

>>149276744
the Braddocks have a magic light house that leads to Celtic Narnia.

>>149270583
Stop implying Professor X is a coomer. He is not.

>>149278595
on a similar note, I enjoyed how the PS5 Spider-Man game had a bunch of old villains reform into civilian life, like Tombstone for example

I forget, did Bendis write Rightclops or was that earlier? I remember enjoying that storyline but I don't remember the production details for it or even where it fit with stuff like AvX and the original 5 storyline

>>149250610 (OP)
Bald people are more likely to steal your genetic material and use it to create an unwanted genetically engineered child with it.

>>149250610 (OP)
Was there any doubt? Every bald person is up to no good.

>>149279314
>Didn’t read the Micronauts crossover
He’s the giga-coomer. He’s such a coomer he repressed all of his negative thoughts and those thoughts went on to molest his students

>>149277002
If they were then they'd change their minds.

>>149250653
He's right, you know. Warnings about telepaths come immediately before superheroes.

>>149272520
Das rite! Muhfuggin riot n steal n kill n shieeeet!

>>149255101
Madelyn Pyror, the Goblin Queen, you know she is going to have another of her regular psychotic breakdown or Selene, you know she is evil outright and can always trust her to betray or use you or maybe No-Girl(before she had the body) she was a telepath that didn't do anything good or dad (or at all)

>>149274807
I like him

>>149275614
The children of the vault sub plot (you know where Synch and X23/Laura/Wolverine/Talon become an item) plus the future showing people/machine hybrids in Power of X,I think?

>>149277979
This a joke or are you asking seriously?

>>149250610 (OP)
He's literally Lex Luthor

>>149281001
What's No-Girl been up to?

I could write the most fucked up and daring and hope-pilled art house bullshit of an X-Men fan run that spans multiple generations, but I'd piss off every single comic fan, every inch of the political compass, and probably get sued into oblivion by Disney.

>>149278051
- Xavier wiping Hank's friends and loved ones memories of him
- Emma's sole reason for existing on teams throughout the '00s and '10s, but most egregiously her projecting a mental image onto others simply so she doesn't have to get dressed in the morning
- Xavier wiping Reed Richards' memory of the Mutant cure.

>>149275895
He knows all the angles, figuratively, and literally, with his crazy-ass spatial geometry skills

>>149276115
OG Magneto is really a completely different character from the character Claremont turned him into in the 80s. He didn’t just give Magneto a backstory, he just changed Magneto’s entire personality so that his 1960s/70s comics could only be explained as his powers driving him insane or whatever.

I don’t think Claremont was wrong to do this because Lee/Kirby Magneto was a pretty boring one-dimensional genocidal ranting lunatic. But it’s almost impossible to see it as part of the same story.

The page you posted is by Mark Waid, who did an Avengers issue about Wanda’s PTSD from her abuse by Magneto, and I suspect Waid is one of the many comics fans who dislikes Claremont’s attempt to redeem Magneto by soft pedaling what a monster he was. Roger Stern (formerly Claremont’s editor) used the Avengers to basically call this out a few times.

>>149284886
60s Magneto is just a cartoony pastiche of Hitler yelling about mutant supremacy.

https://youtu.be/nmrOeS-r7P0?si=3I4t0FiM4kgihjPV

>>149281166
you said Chief bro who else could it be?

>>149285540
ANYBODY named Chief.

>>149285592
which includes the Master Chief

>>149281080
yea like I said I glossed over Krakoa comics so this explanation doesnt help haha
>>149275626
I see, what about the inhumans or eternals or other similar guys in that era then

>>149280143
there was no need for that super conveniently ripped off chest on Superman's costume, Lex is gay for him that's for sure

>>149281166
>>149277979
>>149285592
>>149285687
X-fags don't read comics.

>>149263010
Correct

>>149286304
>falling for an obvious joke
/co/fags don't understand simple humor

>>149285735
Completely forgotten about. The conflict is drawn to the idea that a war between humans, mutants, and machines are inevitable, oftentimes with mutants being fucked over hard. Though there are a lot of holes in this particular plotline that are best not poked hard at, starting from the fact that ten violently different timelines is enough of a sample size for Mutant Moira Mctaggert to declare "mutants always lose".

>>149286949
I mean, it’s implied that with each new life Moira was losing her patience and sanity, so when she declared “mutants always lose” it wasn’t exactly a purely statistical conclusion

>>149287012
The rest of the mutants still took it as gospel for the Krakoa plan, and the entire end game hinges on these ten different timelines being the only ones effectively mattering in regards to fighting against the Sentinels and the Sinister Dominion. Again, the kind of thing that shouldn’t be poked at hard if you don’t want all the stuffing to fall out at once

>>149287057
>The rest of the mutants still took it as gospel for the Krakoa plan
Only the Quiet Council and only after the events of Inferno. Even then they weren't of one mind about it. But at the outset only Moira, Xavier and Magneto knew.

>>149287057
Ten timelines is not a lot but it’s still more than anything they had, especially considering it came from someone they trusted

*more information than anything they had

>>149250610 (OP)
Not really the biggest X-Men guy, but it was weird for me picking up Chip Zdarsky's Invaders and seeing Xavier act the way he did. Dude finds a mutant who can mess with people's DNA and immediately starts going on about how they can use this guy to turn every human on Earth into a mutant, pretty sure that would've been a villain plot all the way up to the 2010s

>>149287456
Excluding the multiple timeline and dimension travelers the X-men already know, presumably

>>149287559
That's always worth keeping in mind when talking about the X-Men's hostility towards technological development. They don't just have slippery slope fallacies and thought experiments to rile them up, many of them have personally witnessed future timelines where the technological innovations of the present are abused against mutants. It's not a pure hypothetical to them.

>>149287602
For what it’s worth, a fair chunk of their “bad futures” come from mutants meddling in shit. Everyone remembers Days of Future Past starting cause Senator Kelly died, nobody remembers Age of Apocalypse starting cause of a mutant trying to kill Magneto or Cable’s timeline happening cause of Apocalypse or whatever the fuck Bishop’s deal was.

Also, the technology thing makes no sense cause they’re friends with plenty of robots and cyborgs, like Warlock and Danger, and we’ve seen Sentinel tech based individuals like Nimrod and Omega Sentinel and Justin Seyrit’s pet bot stop trying to harm mutants, so going full tilt on “We must go full against our machine oppressors” is asinine considering it was never the tech that was the problem, it was the people directing it.

>>149259905
It's realistic - if people could actually have powers chances are they wouldn't be altruistic with them. There should be role models, but there should also be morally grey or flat out garbage people depicted too. Greying up Xavier may have made him more complex, but I feel he should have remained somewhat "pure" as a figurehead and ideal.
>>149264930
She killed a young girl's horse, tried to brainwash her into becoming her private assassin, murdered and mind controlled various people to further her interests, fucked Shaw while in Storm's body, kidnapped teenagers, broke up a marriage, murdered her own (admittedly awful) sister... Do you really think a character like that can or should be fully redeemed?
>>149275895
>Rightclops
He just reheated Wolverines nachos but with less nuance or complexity

>>149276115
LOL at Mastermind and Toad getting touchy feely.
Mastermind has daughters that are Wanda’s age. And Toad wants her coochie

>>149287996
>Greying up Xavier may have made him more complex, but I feel he should have remained somewhat "pure" as a figurehead and ideal.
Grey Xavier would be fine if they didn't fuck up Scott as well

>>149286304
Not the modern comics, not so much. Wolverines and Deadpools is pretty fun, though.

>>149287602
X-Men's hatred of all A.I. was just another dropped plot point from the Krakoa era, would have been interesting if they tried to pull some shit on Vision or Robot-Man.

>>149288441
Vision and Robot Man would have fucked their shit up if it’s not an X-men book. Vision’s powers are broken as fuck and he’s probably beyond tired of mutant bullshit from all the shit with Wanda, and Aaron Stack had zero patience for Tabitha’s bullshit when they were supposed friends, the X-men would get it much worse.

Ultron would have turned Krakao into another Slorenia and laughed his ass all the way to the robot databank

>>149285540
Niles Caulder

>>149288013
And then people blame Pietro for being overprotective when she was always one step away from being raped

>>149250610 (OP)
He's a dirty bald podiophile.

>>149250665
And you can't comprehend having a conversation without bringing up your victim complex and obesity.

>>149257669
>now

>>149263046
People had to learn psychics were an actual threat first

In the early days Charles could fuck over people from a distance but now people have shielding and anti psychic training.

>>149289195
he likes feet?

>>149289393
>>149263046
if SHIELD has an automatic hard-counter to everything everybody does, why are these mutants even on the X-Men in the first place? why are SHIELD not recruiting all of them

>>149276197
In the beginning of the Krakoa Era, Cyclops did show signs of not totally agreeing with the idea and Logan outright called out the bullshit with the likes of Sinister & Apoc. That should've been dropped.

>>149289446
*should've NEVER been dropped

>>149289148
Niles? This is the worst idea you've ever had.

>>149289417
Shields aren't perfect anon.

Especially against an omega level telepath that's in the same area as you.

>>149288579
>>149288441
>Ultron was technically Wanda's Father-in-Law
>We never got an "Family Reunion" issue that had Cosair, Magneto, Ultron & Maximus the Mad shit talking each other.

>>149289446
never forget Cyclops caught on to Orchis bullshit and when he made resurrection protocols public knowledge they hated him for it first but it ended up saving their asses, never question Scott's intuitions

>>149289516
>
omega level is such shit

ironically it's made them the perfect allegory for modern shitheadery between that and the ethnostate crap and the constant, constant whining about how having dozens of billionaires on their side and fabulous powers and political access for their leadership makes them some kind of downtrodden mass

fuck mutants

>>149286304
and you cant play along with a simple joke! what a buzzkill

>>149290551
yeah the more they explore the jesus allegories and the "us vs them" humies vs muties shit the less interested I become in the core concept of a telepath trying to round up gifted bodies and minds to fight for justice and all of mankind not just themselves

>>149253481
>I am willing to hold myself to a highly specific set of standards that only exist to stroke my ego".
It's called having standards, refusing to begin a cycle of war crimes and showing some restraint is how you seperate yourself from the very animals you are trying to put down.
You know being a good person instead of jumping to genocide immediately.

Reminder - Apocalypse has always wanted to remove all psychics. He kept a few as brains in jars in AOA, and he collected them in glass tubes in the animated series.
>>149288094
They fucked up Scott way prior to Xavier when they had him leave his wife and child and gaslight his old flame

>>149250617
FPBP

>>149278033
No, that was other guys in Civil War trying to join the resistance, I think. Possibly because it was screwing them over as well. Also, shit writing in general there.

Almost sure Stilt-Man was robbing a bank some time later and got Frank'd.

>>149280115
No, before bendis Rightclops was actually right. The line about being right was at the end of Second Coming.

>>149284976
Be that as it may, that's who the character is and what he's meant to be, as per his creators. Of all the Marvel villains in existence by the early 80s, he was one of the most retarded choices to give a redemption story to, because he was so evil, but the fandom's general willingness to disregard everything from before Claremont, and a backstory tied to the one historical tragedy everyone learns about at school is deliberately crafted to make readers sympathetic to him no matter what insane villain plot he does.

>>149284886 is right about how Claremont just created an OC that's wearing the name and appearance of Magneto like a skinsuit, and in the long run it would have been for the best if he really had been told to just create an OC, because virtually everyone else at Marvel either preferred the old Magneto, or simply felt that it didn't matter whether Claremont's stories were any good or not, that guy was just not redemption material after everything he'd done, and they weren't willing to just pretend none of that ever happened. Those guys being the actual other writers of 80s Marvel means none of them shared the X-fag mentality that Claremont was on a whole other level to the rest of them and deserved special treatment to do whatever he wanted, with Bendis-tier disregard for prior continuity and characterization.

Magneto's treatment of his Brotherhood is impossible to reconcile with the idea of him actually caring about 'his people', he's a bullying, abusive tyrant who doesn't care about his minions at all. The way modern Marvel are writing Wanda as liking Magneto is stupid and awful.

By the time of the page >>149276115 posted, Magneto had reverted to being a villain again, and after the things he did in the 90s and early 2000s, giving him ANOTHER redemption arc was an insane idea, he'd proven himself a monster time and time again, and this time he'd killed millions.

>>149292377
Both stories are Civil War. In Frank's own book, Stilt-Man thinks they're having a team up, but Frank just kills him. And it's Stilt-Man, he's not really someone who did anything deserving of getting Franked.

In the main Civil War book, Goldbug and Plunderer show up as representatives of the supervillain community, to propose an alliance with Cap's side, as Tony's side already had the Thunderbolts Army Zemo had put together, all under nanotech control, and again, Frank killed two minor villains who probably didn't deserve it.

>>149292885
>giving him ANOTHER redemption arc was an insane idea
The fact of the matter is people care more about Magneto being a minority fighting against his oppressor than whether or not he's done bad things.

>>149291420
This came up in the Shooter memorial thread, but basically a writer having a character speedrun a romance with his worthless new OC, get them married really quickly, and giving them a kid to try and force it all to stick with later writers is really kind of a dick move to begin with. If the era wasn't such a formative era for so many fans, this would be seen as no better than when Hickman pulled the exact same stunt with Cannonball to try and put him into semi-retirement the same way.

>>149292395
>No, before bendis Rightclops was actually right.
No, he was a militant asshole who'd abandoned everything he used to believe in, kept being hostile and abrasive towards people who were trying to be allies to him, ran a literal death squad and put several teenagers on it, and had them kill a lot of normie humans who were no real threat to them. But the comics just kept ratcheting up the threat escalation to such retarded levels so they could keep making it seem like all the stupid crap he was doing was somehow necessary.

Cyclops was the worst of both worlds as the leader, the militance and cult-like zealotry of Magneto, and the paranoid secrecy and sketchiness of Xavier.

Beast was right that the old Cyclops would consider the man he became to be no better than the villains he used to fight.

>>149293063
>his oppressor
but he's the one who started the whole mutants vs humans thing, nobody even knew about mutants when he first started attacking everyone

>>149293063
>Magneto being a minority fighting against his oppressor
Anon, those people are idiots, and need to be told to shut up and leave. Politely at first, but firmly if necessary, and with torches and pitchforks if it comes to it. The Magneto they want, the Magneto we've been stuck with for the last 20 years, is basically worthless as a character. He's just the X-Men's edgy friend now. This is where doubling down on "they're minorities" so much has gotten us, an audience that cares more about the metaphor than who the characters actually are, or what they've done, and a fan mentality that any crime's OK if it's mutants doing it to others, while anything done to mutants is unforgiveable.

>>149293108
That's what I'm saying, anon, they don't care!

>>149292933
Plunderer is Ka-Zar's arch-nemesis. This used to matter when Ka-Zar used to be able to sell his own book.

>>149284357
>but most egregiously her projecting a mental image onto others simply so she doesn't have to get dressed in the morning
What is wrong with this? No harm no foul.

>>149293172
Don't worry, it was a body double.

>>149292885
Silver Age Magneto was boring and giving him sympathetic motivations was an objective improvement for the character's longevity. You're just being contrarian because normies sympathize with him too much sometimes because of liberal brainwashing.

>>149293222
>an objective improvement for the character's longevity.
Look at what he is now, and don't even pretend that's an improvement on any of the times he was a villain. Look at Magneto has been a direct influence on so many other comics and cartoons wanting to pull the same "what if the main villain was actually the hero all along and did nothing wrong?" twists and keep pretending that in the long run this was good just because you enjoyed the early sympathetic material from the 80s. We're decades past the point where the material we're getting has been so bad for so long that "there were some good stories in the 80s" doesn't really justify it in the long run.

Giving him motivations that made him more complex, but keeping him a villain, like in the 90s, that actually worked, but he simply does not work as a hero or antihero, yet that's what we're stuck with. It's not contrarian to point out that this is just awful.

>>149253440
Good explanation from an anonymous.

>>149253641
Spock you fucking faggot.

>>149293087
I don't think Claremont should be demonised for the decision, he was already sick for the stagnation and status quo and wanted the characters to grow, evolve, and eventually move on and be replaced by new characters and stories. New mutants was the compromise for keeping the school setting but allowing the X-Men more freedom. He didn't realise the business he was in which was all about IP's and milking everything dry and endlessly wanking the same stories time and time again.

And now we have this weird grey area where new characters are constantly introduced but old established characters are too important to be retired, so the lineups are so bloated far beyond practicality and everyone's a zombie.

Great take on Cyke

>>149283763
Well, you can tell us the outline at least.

>>149292885
Even post Claremont he did way too much shit. Hell some of his worst acts happened AFTER claremont.

>>149293324
The way he married Scott off was really weird though. He spent a long time dropping obvious hints that Maddie was Jean, apart from the meta-fact that the whole story is based on Alfred Hitchcock’s “Vertigo” (where the woman who died is named Madeleine), and then the big twist is all the other hints were wrong and Maddie is a totally different person and it’s OK for Scott to marry her.

Even if he actually intended this to be the end of it, which I doubt, he must have recognized how creepy it was for Scott to marry a woman who looks like his dead lover because that’s what “Vertigo” and other stories like it are about.

I have trouble believing he really didn’t have plans to reveal Maddie as Jean, no matter how much he insists otherwise.

>>149293324
>I don't think Claremont should be demonised for the decision, he was already sick for the stagnation and status quo and wanted the characters to grow, evolve, and eventually move on and be replaced by new characters and stories.
And if he's doing that with his own creations, that's fine, but when it comes to characters who were there before him and would be there long after him, writing them out of the book is fine, maybe he can bring them back later, maybe a later writer will, but even back in the 80s, the idea of trying to genuinely retire any of the characters readers actually read the books for, and think your own OCs are good enough to replace them and it won't hurt sales at all, it was never going to fly for long, even back then.

But just writing Cyclops out for a few years could've worked fine, it's giving him a wife and child that was the problem. When the wife is an OC he only just met, it's not remotely the same situation as when it's a longtime relationship that readers have been invested in for years, and marriage and children are logical next step and positive development people have been hoping to see for years.

Claremont had been in the industry more than ten years by the time he was trying to do this, he should've had more awareness of how much change he could and couldn't get away with by then.

The current situation, the problem isn't even the important established characters that Marvel and DC literally CAN'T retire, it's the subsequent generation after generation of newer characters, most of whom never really took off as well, but a lot of them are still around and won't go away either, because someone at the company likes them, or they have just enough fans that they don't want to make them angry, but every new writer keeps introducing his own new generation of OCs because he thinks he'll get that royalty money from adaptations, so we end up with a number of characters who all have the same powerset, or personality, or role.

>>149292885
At this point, I like to think that even if we take Magneto's backstory as gospel and that he really does want to protect mutants from the horrors he endured, his 60s self is effectively his true id on full display. Which if anything makes him worse than just a hypocrite, since he's a man who enjoys using his power as a cudgel but still needs a reason to keep himself from feeling bad about abusing his authority. Hence, his mission.

That one X-men issue where he effectively scared a normal construction worker to death to justify his crusade against humanity imo is what the character's really evolved into. A bully who is all too eager to terrify a man into giving him the answers he wants and using it to justify his evil, only to have nothing to say when the same person asks in horror and confusion why he couldn't just explain himself instead of putting on this elaborate torture show.

The fact the X-men books never revisited this moment is almost a shame, just cause I always felt this is the only way they could reconcile the two different Magnetos they keep portraying; One being who he wishes others to see him as, and the power-mad bully and cad he really is.

>>149287535
it's a villain plot right now anon

if the mutant cure was wrong then what Xavier is proposing there is wrong

>>149293369
Exactly. 80s Claremont gave a redemption story to a villain who kept trying to kill millions. In the 2000s, they did the same for a villain who actually had killed millions.

To make it worse, they kept dragging other characters like Xavier, Joseph, Wanda and Pietro down to make Magneto look better. It's disgusting.

>>149293940
Magneto's the man who lived through something terrible and all he really learned was that it's better to be the one doing the oppressing. In the late 90s, this issue was an insight into who Magneto really was. In 2025 too many of the X-Men have become the same thing, cry-bullies going out of their way to scare and provoke normal humans, deliberately creating responses of fear to justify the actions they already wanted to do, and telepaths deliberately going uninvited into people's minds then having the audacity to be offended and self-righteous about what they might find in there.

At the absolute worst, there was the final act of the Krakoa era, where a number of characters just went completely mask-off, and appeared to have been eagerly waiting the whole time for the opportunity to finally be allowed to start slaughtering humans. Orchis may have been le evil bigot strawmen, but 99% of them were never any real threat demanding that level of overkill.

>>149294129
>In the 2000s, they did the same for a villain who actually had killed millions.

now to be fair, that was after they'd tried to redeem Jean by admitting she was personally responsible for the death of an entire world

>>149294199
80s Marvel got Jean out of that by retconning it so that Jean and Phoenix were separate characters, and the Jean who was around from 1985 onwards wasn't the Phoenix that committed genocide.

The problem was in how many writers just didn't care about the genocide, and were more concerned with it being the actual Jean in the big famous storyline. It took years, but eventually editorial were asleep at the wheel enough to let some retarded moron actually try to make it so that Jean and Phoenix were always one and the same, but it's Zombie Marvel, nobody in their right mind should be clinging to anything modern as important canon.

Marvel never tried to retcon that Magneto never did any of his crimes except for the one Xorn story. He gets away with the others because they just don't care, the same way they don't care about the dead aliens Phoenix killed.

>>149294129
>Orchis may have been le evil bigot strawmen, but 99% of them were never any real threat demanding that level of overkill.
I remember so many people trying to argue how Polaris trapping all those soldiers on board the station and sending a wave of Brood to kill them all was "justified" despite one of the X-men themselves outright declaring the entire species so evil he'd wipe them all down to a bug. Gotta love the sheer dissonance in the fandom.

>>149293648
>the idea of trying to genuinely retire any of the characters
Why wouldn't he think that? He came in and used an almost entirely new cast on a team book successfully, people wanted more of Storm and Wolverine, they didn't give a fuck about Angel or Iceman, or at least not in the same way. He was also introducing new, interesting and popular characters regularly. The status quo wasn't anywhere near as established as it is now.
>When the wife is an OC he only just met
Who was for all intents and purposes Jean, because Shooter wouldn't let him have his actual toy.
>Claremont had been in the industry more than ten years by the time he was trying to do this
The reality is he got away with a lot because he was writing gold. It must have been frustrating because he clearly genuinely wanted to fight the stagnation and let the characters and story evolve - we saw it with the destruction of the team, the mansion, morlock massacre, rebuilding with new members and moving them to Australia, but the powers that be and the fans fought it all the way.
And yes your last point is a big frustration of mine - they can't have it both ways. You can't continually introduce new generations without killing off or retiring old characters otherwise you end up with the wallpaper/astroturfing we have now. The beauty of the Claremont era was the teams were small and each character was given great care to have their own identity and voice - now it's just mass slop and focused around identity politics with 0 nuance.

>>149294331
All of the doublethink can be explained by "it's OK when mutants do it".

Remember how mutants losing their powers is "genocide" but mutants taking away Inhumans' powers is fine? Or how Krakoa declaring a racewar against AI was fine?

>>149294459
I really want to see someone call the X-men out on their bullshit, but their fans would probably riot if they were actually called out

>>149294807
I think someone tried to do that during the Krakoa Arc

>>149292885
There's a reason why Claremont barely uses any of the other OG Brotherhood members in his run since it would dispute his characterization of Magneto. Shit, with how much he loved Mags, you would think he would have done more with the retcon that Mags was Pietro and Wanda's father but again, he would have had to confront with the fact that Magneto was abusive towards them and he couldn't have that.

>>149293063
If you need more than one Redemption arc, you're just really bad at being a good guy. I mean, shit, you keep falling off the wagon. By the way, is Nature Girl still running around out there murdering people?

>>149289195
He doesn't have a sexual fetish for feet. He's just fixated on feet because his don't work.

>>149293324
>he was already sick for the stagnation and status quo and wanted the characters to grow, evolve, and eventually move on and be replaced by new characters and stories
Not taking into consideration what fans could possibly want/like.

>>149293087
I mean, I remember feeling sorry for everyone telling Chuck to go fuck himself in Messiah Complex, including Scott, but now I remember what they had to work with - the comics were already throwing lots of shit at Chuck...
You know what, you're kinda right. Bizarre that when Scott heard his son had the new mutant baby, his first response was to send the brand new murder team to bring back the baby "at any cost".

>>149270071
Sorry Scott has to be an "ends justify that means, survival at any costs" fag now, and current fans will claim that was natural character progression and made Scott more interesting

>>149292933
>And it's Stilt-Man, he's not really someone who did anything deserving of getting Franked.
That's quite true, it's not like that era is famous for decent writing anyway.

>>149293222
>Silver Age Magneto was boring
I dunno him just going ballistic at Toad over him just breathing is kinda fun to watch.

>>149275580
The Genosha thing is funny to me because literally the storyline before that was about Magneto and Genosha preparing to wage war on the rest of the world for mutant supremacy, with the X-Men sneaking in to stop him.

>>149294880
True, though it being a retcon that was forced on him by Byrne and his friends wanting to make their fanfic canon may have had something to do with it as well. He just didn't seem to have any interest in the twins as characters. Mastermind was the only one of the original Brotherhood in 80s Claremont X-Men, and he's only in one story after Magneto got an origin.

I don't know if it's true, but some have claimed Claremont didn't like the idea of Magneto having any living family, as his view of Magneto was someone who would have chosen Muh Family over Muh Cause and Muh People. Which does line up with him doing his best to ignore the retcon, and it never really mattered much within the X-books until after Claremont was gone.

>>149294324
I don't think the second to last panel was altered for this 2011 reprint, can't be fucked to track down scans of the original tho


>Yet Jean Grey IS Dark Phoenix.

RIP Jim Shooter, calling it like he saw it. We are poorer for his passing out of comics.

Anyway the X-Men treat her like she's Jean (and she treats the X-Men like she's Jean) for the rest of that issue (and beyond) and she visits her parents (and threatens them with being turned into crystals because she can hear their thoughts) on the very next page, then she's depowered by Xavier (because CURING MUTANTS IS WRONG) and the next issue starts with Uatu declaring that he saw it all, she is Jean Grey, she is the Phoenix, she is the Dark Phoenix

throughout her trial it's clear that most of the X-Men are disgusted with what she's done, Cyclops *knew* but didn't want to believe it (via telepathy) and on learning the truth immediately sides with her (the woman he spent all morning calling a dire threat and trying to depower) and Xavier bizarrely invokes a medieval duel with the Shi'Ar to save her life

the X-Men spend most of the issue wrestling with their consciences about saving the life of a mass-murderer just because she happens to have been their friend (and also tried to kill them hours before), Jean literally tells Scott that she did it and his immediate response is trying to say "Dark Phoenix" did it, which is the most crack-head self-representing court argument you'll ever fuckin hear, then Jean becomes Phoenix again and literally says they're the same being and "part of me welcomes it"

she's a villain, bringing her back even once was a mistake, making her a villain was maybe the last truly bold choice Marvel made and they beansed it by trying to say all that villain crap was someone else (who is also secretly her because of the Phoenix working that way)

>>149294984
Seriously, whenever someone complains about Genosha being wiped out, it should have the same impact about complaining about the Khmer Rouge being burnt to the ground.

That being "And nothing of value was lost"

>>149294975
He's trying to be a genomic supremacist and his side has a goblin, lashing out makes sense.

>>149295052
I think you may be confused here, anon. At the time of the original Dark Phoenix Saga issues, yes, Phoenix was 100% meant to just be Jean with a power upgrade. But when they brought Jean back a few years later, they retconned it that Jean had never been Phoenix at all, so that she wasn't guilty of genocide.

It sounds like Dark Phoenix Saga was a situation where writer, artist and editor were all on different pages with regards to whether Phoenix would be a villain temporarily or permanently, Byrne went into business for himself by upping the scale of her crimes to alien genocide, which forced Shooter to step in and demand a last-minute change to the planned ending, and then MAJOR CHARACTER DEATH ended up being one of the key things that really put the book on the map, alongside the Wolverine push.

And if they were going to turn one of the X-Men into a villain, or kill one of them, it shouldn't have been the only one worth looking at.

>>149295070
>Seriously, whenever someone complains about Genosha being wiped out, it should have the same impact about complaining about the Khmer Rouge being burnt to the ground.
>That being "And nothing of value was lost"
This, but Utopia, New Tian and Krakoa too.

>>149295209
but Jean is Phoenix again and always was, the retcon has been retconned and what happens in those issues is actually what happened, she's a genocidal lunatic and they defended her

>>149255101
>>149255148
>>149255148
>Ironically, Emma Frost.
If someone made that assumption in world, that'd prove the humans right.

>>149294927
>Not taking into consideration what fans could possibly want/like.
...Except that fans loved what CC was doing which is why he ended up creating and writing multiple titles. Truly a victim of his own success
>>149294928
Agreed, although realistically, which character isn't currently a walking shell of their former selves?
>>149296136
>she's a genocidal lunatic and they defended her
Was the first time, but certainly wasn't the last time.

>>149295230
nuh uh

>>149296989
>which character isn't currently a walking shell of their former selves
Gambit, Rogue, Laura maybe?

>>149255148
lmao piss off

>>149297753
Laura went from child soldier grappling with her upbringing to Logan 2.0 so I'm not sure how much that really fits, but I stopped reading mid Krakoa

>>149257610
>fascists know this, and that is why leftist organizations are infiltrated and why leftist organizations are challenged with moral dilemmas by the ruling power to compromise both their morale as well as public perception.
Lol, lefties love fascism. They hate "fascists", who are whoever gets in the way of implementing their own fascists dictatorship, regardless how actually fascist those "fascists" are.

>>149298296
imagine being this braindead

>>149259777
Her character was assassinated the moment Morrison started writing her.

>>149250695
>Okay, let's conceptualize an edgy telepath who invades and rapes the minds of criminals. Did they become based like Punisher or Rorschach in your eyes? No probably not
Yeah. If instead of using a gun, Punisher put his finger to his forehead and thought the criminals dead when he sees them, he'd still be Punisher.

>>149271282
and it goes even further

in uncanny 600, bendis writes nightcrawler as taking rightclops' side, despite the fact that nightcrawler was going to confront cyclops before nightcrawler died. imagine all rightclops agreeing with magneto to lead to an ethnostate with krakoa, then for the x-writers to let it all come crashing down and have a panel with where nightcrawler gives cyclops a hug like he's the best. bitches refuse to understand rightclops and magneto is literally the path to krakoa

>>149274807
i guess i'm no one then

>>149275555
you're not the first person to accuse me of that. usually it's just people who don't like intelligent responses. read more books and you can make responses like that too

>>149296136
>but Jean is Phoenix again and always was, the retcon has been retconned
And the point is that if Marvel want her around, as a heroine, this is an absolutely insane idea. Shooter was 100% right that if they were going to bring her back, they had to do it in a way that absolved her of genocide, but the idiots just couldn't let it go and kept trying to re-canonize it. It's like nobody's even asked them "if you don't want her to be a villain, why do you even want her to be the one responsible for this? Do you not think it matters?"

>>149280115
nah, that started for certain by Messiah Complex. that was when writers decided that hope was the antichrist of bishop's timeline, and bishop chased cable and hope through the future, and without any evidence, rightclops "knew" that bishop was capable of murder, and told beast to build a chrono bomb that was linked to bishop's time signature. then the writers decided that bishop would napalm the ENTIRE continent of south america, just so rightclops could be right and beast could be wrong. and when the time came to push the button, cyclops threatened beast and told him it was an order, and cyclops put his hand on his visor like he was about to use it on beast. he put his finger on the trigger and threatened beast in the comic, and it was a bluff. cyclops ended up pushing the button anyway. there was literally no reason why anyone would think bishop would do something like napalm an entire continent, only the audience would know that, none of the main characters of that story arc.

rightclops gets other people to do his dirty work for him. he convinces all the mutants to agree with him, anyone who questions him is verboten. that's how writers have handled it.

>>149271571
uh, no. this is much different. what x-writers did to beast was the biggest character assassination in /co/ history

>>149298970
It started earlier in Messiah Complex than that, as someone else in the thread pointed out, Cyclops' reaction to learning that his own son has the new baby mutant is to send his newly-formed deathsquad to kill Cable. In the final chapter of the event, he tells the teen squad "kill anyone who gets in your way!"

If they'd told us right then that a villain was mind controlling Cyclops would anyone have been surprised?

>>149258610
gyatt

>>149299020
that's super weird. i read messiah complex because it was storytimed here years ago. maybe i'm reading/remembering it wrong, but are you saying not only did he want beast to kill bishop but he was telling people to ALSO kill cable?

>>149299034
That's exactly what he did, yes.

>>149299040
*puts hands up in the air*

okay that's worse than i thought. i forgot that.

>>149295070
Khmer Rouge happened after Pol Pot had gotten aid from both China (prep for invading northern borders of Vietnam in the 3rd indochina war) as well as proxy militias armed and funded by the CIA (raise up the worst psychos that just murder so that capitalists can point the finger at "leftists")

and it's also a bad comparison because after that, the sentinel that did it became self aware and fucked off immediately because it knew what had just happened was objectively horrible

>>149276197
and cassandra nova

who was responsible for killing 16 million mutants at genosha

but writers want us to hate beast

>>149283763
AO3 exists

don't believe race traitor lies, Cyclops was a true hero of mutantkind

Being completely level-headed and rational doesn't necessarily make for a dynamic protagonist.

Magneto is more popular because at least he takes strides that mark out his passion for his cause, be they good or bad. Professor X is like "we can be better," but then just leaves it at that.

>>149299674
thing is that wasn't always the case. I admit that Charles being simply hopeful is boring and is cooler with some secrets of his own, but Magneto being suddenly excused is where it's concerning. if you want to explore a heroic arc for him, at least make it without completely undermining all the crimes and evil acts he's already done and sweeping them under a rug like they never happened at all.

>>149299574
A true bitch

>>149299674
>Professor X is like "we can be better," but then just leaves it at that.

except for mindwiping his team and allies, starting a paramilitary team that travels around in a vtol stealth jet beating up people and stealing children, etc etc

>>149299738
>Inhumancel cope

>>149299785
Not even a fan of the inhumans, I just love seeing cyclops simps seethe, especially cause they won't be getting wolverine's cock like scott does

>>149299795
if I were you I wouldnt be talking about desiring Wolverine's cock in a gay manner while trying to win an argument

>>149299830
Why? You getting hard from thinking about it, anon? Is that distracting you?

>>149299238
Cassandra Nova was given a psychic lobotomy by Jean Grey and quarantined away from the rest of Krakoa by Xavier. As in he put her on one of Krakoa's smaller islands and scrubbed it from memory, Krakoa itself didn't even know the place existed.

>>149299865
Considering they found her killing the local fauna for fun, I would say it didn't do diddly dick to make her any less evil

>>149300024
Well duh she admitted it straight up, she was no longer a threat to mutants but was absolutely not giving up on committing atrocities just for the hell of it. They would have left her to rot if she hadn't been key for investigating Threshold and reviving Genosha. And they dumped her immediately after they were done.

>>149299847
I wouldnt talk about getting hard thinking of Wolverine's cock but if thats what you wanna do then im not involved anon

>>149299865
why didnt they just kil her and hold back on resurrecting her? or throw her in the same place as Sabretooth

>>149300469
I can't recall if that was ever explained. Maybe it was, I dunno. I know Xavier kept her a secret from the rest of the council since Jean and Kitty weren't looped in.

>>149300469
Can't she respawn herself?

Cassandra Nova is such a hack character but at the same time I'm surprised they don't use her more often

>>149300818
Maybe it's because she's also overall boring.

>>149300938
I mean I'd take her appearing more over trying to make Xavier cartoonishly evil

>>149299238
Marvel keep having the X-Men blame Bolivar Trask for Genosha, instead of Cassandra Nova. Which is like blaming the gun manufacturer instead of blaming a shooter using a stolen gun.

>>149299574
Cyclops was at his best when he didn't even believe 'mutantkind' was a real thing, and saw himself as human. He's just a dickhole now.

>>149274963
>Hearing this in Spidey's voice
Spot on.

>>149301214
Like suing Gaston Glock for founding a company that would start designing things that were easy to steal and modify? I remember those Sentinels being pretty far out of spec.

>>149300818
She's being used again now.

>>149301817
in From The Ashes? I haven't bothered to keep up with it

>>149302237
In the regular X-Men title

>>149301214
nah there's a certain nuance there that I like. Scott believing that mutants are just human like everybody else, but also having the awareness that "mutantkind" were a real group of people hated for their births. You can still have the boy scout "believe in good" Cyclops while having him actively acknowledge that not everyone has his viewpoints and that fighting for the betterment of mutantkind everywhere, now or in the future, is a necessity

>>149250695
Ghost Rider is pretty cool, and the Penance Stare isn't too different from mind rape. He's also pretty masculine, being a badass flaming skull biker dude.
>>149250749
This is actually a fairly interesting observation. Emma is very idealized, even when she's a bad guy. Purple Man is more like a boss who molests his secretary. Sexually threatening/seductive male villains usually only get idealized if they have a more conventionally masculine appeal; like Namor walking around half-baked or Dracula usually being a hunky goth dude.

>>149302431
...so part of From The Ashes?

>>149252504
Magneto did nothing wrong and was based for knowing mutants and regular humans can't coexist.

>>149303129
Quentin buddy we know it's you, nobody is being fooled by your "anonymity" here

>>149298915
the point is that you can't absolve someone of genocide, you can only put them on trial and let them have their punishment

for the Shi'Ar legal system that punishment was death and when Jean died, it seemed to be over (despite the fact the X-Men had dragged it out)

but then it turned out that her genome was to blame and the Shi'Ar (and Skulls, and Kree presumably, who were all involved in the original trial despite being at each other's throats in every other respect) decided to destroy the Grey-Summers line entirely because it apparently inevitably leads to Dark Phoenix manifestations which leads to genocide

and the X-Men, despite being fully cognisant of all of this, keep defending her, her being Jean, her being the bird

>>149302505
The point is not wanting the heroes to believe "mutantkind" is a thing at all, and that should purely be something villains believe in, whether it's human villains othering the mutants, or Magneto and his followers proclaiming themselves a master race. We need to step back from the insane extremes the metaphor has taken the books to. Cyclops needs to be taken away from the psychopaths self inserting as him for their race war uprising power fantasies, that somehow even making him Wolverine's boyfriend hasn't put an end to.

>>149302996
: )

>>149303589
believing in the Magneto definition of mutantkind as "the superior race" is different from the general definition as just the collective catch-all term for mutants and their struggles. you can "fight for a brighter future for mutantkind" referring to the latter definition and not just "fight to be separate from these pesky humans". you can argue for having a safe haven for mutants away from persecution without devolving into the dick-measuring competition that Krakoa was

>>149283323
Since Kraoka She has a body now, stupid looking with an exposed brain/jar, she was in New Mutants, got captured by john sublime and cried for a bit, haven't seen her since
>>149285735
>ha ha
Its addressed in comics you dont have any interest in
Then why do you care?

>>149303842
I never said I didn't have an interest, in fact me asking for a qrd and then following up with more questions is direct proof that I am indeed interested. I glossed over Krakoa because I stopped reading comics for a while around that time and Krakoa has so much stuff it's hard to follow it all especially when I'm out of the loop. the other anons were being helpful so I see no reason for your unkind attitude

>>149303472
>the point is that you can't absolve someone of genocide, you can only put them on trial and let them have their punishment
It's like you're in wilful denial that they ever retconned the original Dark Phoenix story and are clinging to the false idea that everyone since continued to write Jean and Phoenix as the same person.

The retcon that Jean wasn't Phoenix was necessary if Marvel wanted to bring Jean back AND use her as a heroine, and it stood for a long time, despite a lot of writers wanting to undo it. Making it so it wasn't actually her who did any of that had closed the door on any guilt or blame issues, and still would do if the idiots at Marvel didn't keep picking at the wound because it being the real Jean in their favorite X-Men story was of more importance to them than the genocide, which they really don't seem to have any moral issue with at all.

Apparently White finally let Gillen be the one to finally do it, in complete unawareness that all they were doing was playing into the hands of people like you who'd instantly start demanding Jean needs to be punished for genocide, a genocide that nobody working at Marvel gives a damn about because it didn't happen to mutants.

>but then it turned out that her genome was to blame
I'm sorry, but this is just a retarded interpretation of that story. A Shi'Ar death squad, in a clear and obvious moment of villainous overkill, murdered Jean's entire family because the Phoenix had also used her AU daughter as a host, and you're treating this like it was somehow right and necessary, even though we already know the Phoenix can have other hosts and isn't tied to just one bloodline. Killing all those people just in case one of them, or one of their descendants became a Phoenix host was supposed to read as a monstrous thing, and here you are defending it like those people were all to blame and deserved to die.

>>149303887
the issues you were interested in has been addressed, Its in the comics, you haven't been reading them, that's what you've said,I don't think thats unkind although if I've somehow upset you I apologise, that wasn't my intent

god's greatest Shi'ar dickriders in this thread, I tell you

>>149303813
Or we could just move things back to the relative sanity of the 60s and 70s, even the 80s and 90s, where "their struggles" and "persecution" aren't something that's constantly happening all day every day, and they don't need to other themselves. We need to get back to a time where most of the X-Men could just go out in public without instantly being recognized as mutants and someone trying to kill them.

>>149303999
that's a lot of words just to tell me that i'm right

Rachel taps into it like it's just a part of her and always did, even when the Phoenix itself was supposedly "dead"

it's clear that the Phoenix Five in AvX are themselves, not only during the event but afterwards - Scott's rhetoric never changes before or after hosting the Phoenix power (which was Bendis, but maybe building on what Gillen had done in Generation Hope etc for the few years preceding, though I'm not going to read three years worth of X-Men comics just to figure out which of them said something first)

in any case a retcon of a retcon to reproduce the original intent of the first death of Jean Grey isn't that big of a deal, it just means that the X-Men aren't heroic - well shit, we could see that they valued Jean over the lives of billions of people they'd never met back in 1980)

>>149299865
doesn't change the fact that she was able to go there in the first fucking place. it doesn't matter that shadowcat killed her either. she should have been EXECUTED

>>149301214
it's especially crazy when the "gun" involved becomes self aware and fucks off because it had no choice in anything and did not like what it saw upon awakening at all. not one bit.

>>149304625
if i recall during the phoenix five at a dinner, Emma comments on using the memories of a canibal in order to flavour the meal they are eating, which unless its something she does often does sort of indicate a shift in personality, at least for her (not that Cyclops was freaking out or anything)

>>149304747
Again, couldn't she resurrect herself? She's done it before.

>>149304832
great question. i don't know.

seems like problem solvers like beast and forge could figure a way out to execute her properly, maybe using timeline shenanigans and Leech. or get help from doctor strange. or just make sure none of her cells exist when she dies. gosh, that would make for a great x-men story arc wouldn't it? imagine using a bunch of psychic characters in the marvel universe to destroy a mummudrai. then they could have philosophical arguments like other anons in this thread about why the marvel universe is treating cassandra nova differently than phoenix

>>149304892
I'm not sure Leech would be any help. IIRC the reason she can respawn is because she's a mummudrai. Unless his powers work on astral creatures and they can somehow figure out how to shunt him into the astral plane and not do collateral damage to all of sentient existence, they may just have to suck it up.

>>149304974
even if a real solution can't be reached, destroying her forces her to take the time to regenerate over years. and even if that's not enough, i'm sure dr. strange and other magic users can find a way to quarantine her or keep her from visiting the material plane. treat her like Mojo

>>149304818
Kind of weird how often Sentinels keep developing a moral code no matter how rabid the X-men get with their insistence on how all Sentinel-based tech is evil.

>>149297753
Gambit I'll say had probably been one of the few that feels like he's kept himself pretty consistent on his character evolving in a way that doesn't feel super retarded, and any stupid plot beats don't get swept under the rug, he owns up to them. though the writers really need to have him be more than Rogues +1, that happens way too often lately

>>149305139
kek

i also don't get why sentinels aren't a point of focus and interest for A.I. characters, cyborg characters and Douglock. i would have figured Danger, Vision, Machine Man would have all taken an interest by now. i don't even know what Rom is. is Rom an A.I.?

>>149305155
Am I wrong to think Gambit should have a solo that's him on some Robin Hood/Lupin III-like adventures? Or a member of the Avengers or Thunderbolts?

>>149304974
>>149305004
There is also the issue that a writer could say she's not literally a mummudrai but rather it's a metaphor for her relationship with Charles and she's actually a noncorporeal psionic entity.

>>149305139
Thats because of something Danger/Shadowcat did to it in astonishing xmen

>>149305191
Rom the Space Knight is an alien, a Galadorian to be specific. He's basically a cyborg, so he probably doesn't count for most people.

And honestly, the closest attempt they ever had was with Juston Seyfert and his pet/friend his reprogrammed Sentinel, but I get that nobody gives a fuck about that poor kid since they killed him in Avengers Arena.

>>149305457
>Avengers Arena
What dreck that was.

>>149257732
his reason was that he needed it to teach his students/train them to fight and apparently that overrides it becoming self aware (its alright Danger ends up forgiving him for some reason)
>>149276197
and Exodus was on the quiet council, he led the Acoyltes in the 90s