What explains this phenomenon?

>>149387215 (OP)
Shonen is long but there's still a Chapter 1
The discourse could easily be solved if we got more comic fans who weren't into capeshit

>>149387215 (OP)
Well for one the Dragon Ball guide in your pic suggests reading things in in-universe chronological order, instead of when they were thought of, made, and released in real life. Which is the wrong order to watch anything.

>>149387244
>made, and released in real life
So you start at Doctor Slump?

>>149387215 (OP)
I wish western comics were one writer and artist/art team per story.

>>149387215 (OP)
>half the "Vol 1" American comics aren't geniune first volumes but instead are convoluted reboots that no beginner can find

Even with this desperate attempt to pull a "no u", you can't even find more than a handful of accessible comics, and certainly none from Marvel or DC

>>149387215 (OP)
Even ignoring the obviously disingenuous portrayal of the accessability of those manga series,
there is indeed some barrier to entry to series like Gundam.

It's not at all obvious to a new viewer that 0079 is where you should start. The only clue to this is that it's the first Gundam anime, but that was a long time ago and you would have to look that up to find out, and further, with series like Origin, and the endless timeline shenanigans, the entry point to Gundam is completely muddled.
It doesn't matter whether it's comics or anime, a series being difficult to get into is no good, if you need a fan curated guide, you're sunk.
A new viewer is by definition not invested yet, and will not be willing to put forth more than the absolute bare minimum of effort to engage with your series

>>149387215 (OP)
In the past, it was difficult to get ahold of old comics. Many of the earliest issues of big names like Batman and Superman were out of print, rare, and at the time, not really cared for that much.

This necessitated the need for "jumping on points". It wasn't that new readers were unwilling to read decades of older comics, they simply weren't able.
And many hardcore fans did indeed spend a great many years hunting down every issue of their favourite characters, to read and get the true full story.

There is a starting point to Batman and it's not Year One, it's Detective Comics #27.
And to get the full story you need to read every single comic that Batman is featured in, which is considerable. Anything less is incomplete, you won't understand the full story, you won't know what the Whirly Bat is, or who Bat Mite is.

>>149388685
But the problem with comics is not just that their true full story is prohibitively long and compiled in a jumbled mess of varying titles and crossovers, but that it doesn't have a grasp of its own canon. And there is a canon.

The problem with the image in >>149387215 (OP) is that it's simply not true.
To read and understand the full picture of One Piece or the other examples, you don't have to read those spin-off chapters, they're not canon and frankly nobody cares about them. There's no discussion about them, nobody collects them. They're just spin-off, many of them aren't even made by the author, they're effectively just merchandise.
To get the full picture of One Piece, you start with chapter 1 and read it one chapter at a time without deviation until you reach the end.

but comics don't have that. There is no hard line between what is canon and what is not. The "canon" is a loose regulation changed continously by the creators.
Something may be canon one day and then disowned the next, and then reinstated the next. It means nothing.
Batman has 20 different origin stories, none of which is the one true origin.
Superman has died... or has he?
Spiderman is married, but also he's not, but also he's dead, but also he's not.

There's no coherence. Either you read ALL of Batman and are presented with a nonsensical mirage of a story, more like a collection of myths than anything else.
Or you pick a slither of a timeline and personally consider that narrow band to be the story of Batman, ie Batman Year One, but now you don't have the full story, and to have even chosen that slither to begin with you must have weighed it up against the other options for what story to follow, something a beginner is incapable of doing because they are not aware of the options to begin with.

>>149388788
There is a popular quote comics fans like to make when recommending people to get into comics, they say
>just read what you like, don't read what you don't like
Completely failing to realize that you must first read something to know what you like and don't like, and until you've actually read it, you cannot make a judgement about it.
And so using "just read what you like" in response to someone seeking recommendations about what is good and what is bad is completely retarded

>>149388685
They keep doing shit like this.

>>149387215 (OP)
All this image proves is that both are a publishing nightmare and that the poor sales of American comics isn't because of "le hard to get into maymay" and the higher sales of manga isn't because of "le beginner friendly maymay".

>>149387215 (OP)
>the /co/ can't meme

>>149388805
There is no saving comics.

There's nothing that can be done to make them accessible, there is no magic entry point, no super number 1 that is somehow more number 1 than the other number 1's.
No amount of rebooting can eliminate the fact that all of these comics have decades upon decades of history behind them defining their existence. They are not a clean state and cannot be made so.
Just as there is no rebooting Gundam. You start with 0079 and you watch every series, that is non negotiable.

The only true entry point for a comic is its real beginning, and when that beginning is over ten thousand issues away, you have to accept that it's time to stop.
Make a new series, a completely new series, a new IP.

The reason anime is not as convoluted as comics is because they have not clung to the past. Every huge influential anime that was made had its moment and then left.
Astro Boy was the biggest thing ever when it came out. It didn't diminish in popularity and get cancelled, it ended, the author moved on to other things.
Demon Slayer outsold all of comics and manga by a margain so great it will likely never be topped for decades, maybe even a century. But despite this immense popularity, it ended. It had its moment and then it finished, and people moved on to newer things.

Batman, etc comics would not be so convoluted if they had simply ended within a few years of their initial publication. There would be a couple hundred issues of Batman, and that's all you would need to get the full picture.
Akira Toriyama is dead and yet the Dragonball anime still continues, this is convoluted. It should have ended where the manga ended. Everything past that has muddled the waters.

>>149388928
Stick to the manga vs. comics argument. Anime is another medium.

>>149387215 (OP)
What I find interesting about this image is that the MHA section is actually wrong, Vigilantes readers are expected to have already gone through the first 50 chapters of the main series or they won't understand the significance of this reveal from the end of volume 2.

>>149388952
There's no significant difference between manga and anime, they are simply two different mediums telling the same story. The anime is just an adaptation of the manga and has proved to be the best advertising the manga medium ever devised.

The only exceptions are those anime that have no manga but were instead adapted from novels, videogames, or were fully original, but these represent a tiny minority of anime and aren't too dissimilar from manga-originated anime, ie they could just as well have been originally manga, it would have made no difference.

Manga and anime are effectively interchangeable by the nature of their synchronicity.

>>149388788
>you don't have to read those spin-off comics
When we tell this to animefags they have a stroke.

>>149389076
This is often the case with many prequel or origin series where the "later" part of the series is actually the main series and where you should start.

It's like if you wrote a story about Jor El before Superman was born and throughout the whole thing there is hinting at the future son that he will have that everybody knows is going to be Superman but the actual content of this prequel is nothing but boring Kryptonian politics of a dying society and some boring dude who's oddly prophetic about his unborn son.
If you had not already heard of Superman, it would mean nothing to you.

Much in the same way that the Star Wars prequels lose alot of value if you don't know who Darth Vader is, because so much of the story is explicitly about "how does this innocent kid become Darth Vader"
Or Shakespeares Julius Caeser would mean nothing if you didn't already know he was going to die.

>>149388788
>There is no hard line between what is canon and what is not.
Is Dr Slump canon to Dragon Ball? Are the movies? Some are, but some aren't? Is the Super manga canon or the anime? Did Daima delete Super or is Daima not canon?
Is One Piece episode A canon? The book or the manga? Or neither? What about Fan Note vs the novel it adapts?
Is Hunter x Hunter Vol 0 canon? It was made by the author, but it's a movie tie-in, and movies aren't canon. Or are they?

>>149388805
>Completely failing to realize that you must first read something to know what you like and don't like, and until you've actually read it, you cannot make a judgement about it.

So just pick something up and read, you fucking moron. You don’t like it? Read something else. It’s not difficult. You choose to make it a problem so that you can bitch and moan about it.

>>149387215 (OP)
Kek, this was made by a really butthurt dude.

>>149388928
>EvErYthInG HaS To EnD

Fuck you and your fucking idiotic views.

>>149389086
>The anime is just an adaptation of the manga and has proved to be the best advertising the manga medium ever devised.

Why would I want to read the manga if I already saw the show? What’s the point?

>>149389161
Nta but I agree with him. Why does capeshit need to go on forever especially since after the end of the 90s most runs have been purer garbage? Wouldn't it be better if it just ended so other retarded writers don't ruin it again and again? Also it's not like capeshit makes a low percentage of all american comics, it represents the majority of them.

>>149389147
There are millions of comics, the point of a recommendation is to recommend something.

All these threads prove is that you hate comics and want to read manga but somehow are too insecure about being full time weeb so you have to constantly whine about comics with the same inane talking points as if you gave a shit when in truth you don’t

>>149389161
There's a limit to how long a series can be before it becomes too long for anyone to read.
One Piece attracts very few new readers these days, almost all of its fanbase are older readers. It's simply too long to get into.

If Harry Potter had been 70 movies long, nobody would watch it.

>>149387215 (OP)
>>149388612
>>149388819
>>149388928
>>149389076
>>149389132
>>149389157
>>149389202
You're all ass-fucking fags

Get killed by blacks

>>149388612
Tbh every time you ask a gundam community what's the first one or where to start they will always mention the 79 ones. I don't think it's that obscure for someone that is interested in mecha anime.

>>149389177
You’re just like every moron who thinks music stopped being good after a certain year. You’ve become your annoying parents just complaining how everything was better when I was twelve and anything new is bad because you’re out of touch

>>149387215 (OP)
>Someone took the time to make this
lol

>>149389207
Sorry but I don't want to interact with your boyfriends lmao

>>149389181
You can ask for recommendations like a big boy instead of whining that you can’t read anything and then expecting people to spoon feed you

>>149389214
I don't think everything new is bad, don't change the subject. I think nu-capeshit is pure garbage and doesn't even compare with the old stuff. Name the good nu-capeshit if you really think it can stand on its own.

>>149389161
It's also worth noting that by never ending, comics also never adapt.
Batman started out as a dude dressed as a bat fighting racketeers, but that's old fashioned so now he fights super villains and his suit isn't just spandex anymore but is super advanced armor. But that's the limit of how much Batman can be adapted to the modern times. He's still a guy dressed as a bat.

>>149389210
The fact that you have to ask a community is a sign that it's too convluted.
Nobody has to ask where to begin watching Bleach from, you just google Bleach episode 1. If it's ever more complicated than that, it's too complicated.

>>149389250
I see.

>>149389237
This image has soul. Why did we stop making oc like this?

>>149389237
It's like if the mecha genre created Mazinger Z and then just stopped there, and instead of developing the style and creating new and more interesting mecha designs, they just keep rehashing Mazinger Z

Maybe he gets a slightly fancier looking body with scifi looking lines and wires, but he's still wearing underwear for some reason because that's crucial to his design. Maybe one bold new artist tries getting rid of the underwear because it's stupid and suddenly everyone loses their minds because you can't get rid of Superman- I mean Mazinger Z's underwear!

>>149389237
>CHADuhi schooling those caped shitters
Based!

>>149389250
I'm pretty sure Bleach fans will tell you that you have to read the tie-in novels and then the last stretch of the series magically becomes good or something. Maybe that's just a few weirdos on /a/.

>>149389236
Since the end of the 90s? Batman by Rucka and Brubaker, Gotham Central, Batman by Morrison, The Multiversity, Final Crisis, Seven Soldiers, JSA by Johns, Another History of the DC Universe, Waller vs Wildstorm, Batwoman by Rucka, 52, Hellblazer till it ended, Lucifer, Deathstroke by Priest, Avengers Academy, Thunderbolts by Ellis, Doctor Strange the Oath, Daredevil by Brubaker, X-Statix, Unstable Molecules, FF by Hickman, Annihilation, Guardians of the Galaxy by DNA, Defenders: The Best Defense, FF: Full Circle, Doctor Strange Fall Sunrise, Punisher Max, Get Fury...

>>149389237
>Western comics don’t adapt!
>Western comics are just Batman!

You are cancer

>>149389202
NTA but that'sa poor example, one of One Piece's appeal, aside from kinda approaching Dragonball status as one of "the" series of all time, is that you start at volume one and can look forward to a ton of volumes to read if you end up liking it, the length is very much a selling point for a swathe of reasons. IE you end up with something reliable to read following a...mostly coherent plot and expansive world. Basically the manga equivalent of an all you can eat buffet.

>>149389275
You would not have Evangelion if anime had been cowardly and just kept on rehashing Mazinger Z.
Because Evangelion, and many other mecha anime required that the mold be broken and something totally new be made. Something that is completely impossible if all you're doing is adapting an older series.

Comics could have beem like the manga examples in >>149389237
Superman, Batman and Spiderman could have existed in the 60's and then the 70's could have been something else entirely. And the 80's something else yet again, and through all those decades, something far better than Superman, Batman, and Spiderman would have been made, just as stuff far better than Astro Boy and Mazinger Z were later made

>>149389236
Why, just so you can say it’s shit without even reading it?

>>149389314
It's absolutely not a selling point One Piece doesn't even fit in to its own magazine anymore. Its art style looks like something straight out of the early 2000s, because that's what it is.
Manga doesn't look like that anymore, but because One Piece has been going on for so long, it's still there.

>>149389171
Executives in Japan see them as an advertisement for an LN/Manga with the idea being that, being text based, they can offer a more complete experience with more details so fans will want them.

This actually has created a problem though because despite this due to industry juggernauts like Toriyama, Tomino, and so on who god mammoth, blockbuster anime series were the shining examples of success, and because getting an anime of your material was rare and a legitimate accomplishmen, entire generations of Mangaka grew up seeing it as the end goal and crowing achievement for the quality of their manga, not just an advertisement, resulting in an awkward dynamic with budgeting, writing considerations, and then the cour system happened and shit went even fuckier.

>>149389317
Mazinger had a new series in 2019, as is the right of the copyright holders, like DC with Batman. Meanwhile, other companies do other mecha anime, like how comic publishers that are not DC publish things other than Batman. What's the issue?

>>149389307
I said most runs have been pure garbage not all of them. Also
>Hellblazer till it ended
Wrong, it varied a lot and has some garbage parts. Now name the good capeshit made in the last 5 years just to show you a little something.

>>149389348
Many of my examples were from the last five years. I suppose you don't really keep up.

>>149389307
>Lists almost nothing but pure dogshit and has a rare few catch strays in the process just from association.

NTA but god I hate when fags like you try to make this kind of argument and just vomit up your diet of unadulterated diarrhea. There are good modern books, McKay's Moon Knight for example, but why is it that everyone who ever tries to act like the industry is fine like you is always a faggot with the worse take imaginable.

>>149389337
>No, because [absolutely incoherent nonargument about...artstyle for some reason?]
Anon are you having a stroke.

>>149389358
McKay is a teenage power fantasy where once per issue Marc must do an epic baddass speech and all the characters around him stop in awe and fear while there's lens flares anywhere. Oh, and he brought back his old personas for MCU synergy.
The fact that you champion that over Morrison, Ennis, Brubaker, Ross, Priest or Milligan tells me everything I need to know.

>>149389347
The odd new anime here and there does not at all compare to comics endless rehashing at the complete expense of making anything new.
Do you even know how many issues of Batman there are? It would take you decades to read through. It would not take you decades to get through all of Mazinger Z

Besides the argument of "well it's not all capeshit" isn't really a strong argument.
It's basically all capeshit. Marvel and DC make pretty much exclusively capeshit.
None capeshit content represents an insignificant percentage of the comics industry.

>>149389354
>many
I only counter 5 and I disliked 2 of them.

>>149389362
I don't know what to tell you, One Piece is not popular with new readers. It's dwarfed my newer, shorter series like My Hero Academia, Chainsaw Man, and Demon Slayer.

One Piece is boomer anime and the longer it goes on the older its fanbase will become.

>>149389374
You said we would not have gotten Evangelion if people only published one thing, so I let you know comic publishers don't. As I said, what more do you want?

>>149388788
>>149388805
>>149388819
>>149388928
>>149389237
You don't have to read capeshit
You can get into comics and never touch capeshit

>>149389374
>Besides the argument of "well it's not all capeshit" isn't really a strong argument.
And it's very easy to find comics that aren't capeshit

>>149389383
>only five
Like I said, you do not keep up. You have become your parents.

>>149389388
Publishing like 1% of your output as non capeshit is not going to get you Evangelion
anime is almost entirely new IP's every decade.
Comics don't innovate.

>>149389317
>Comics could have beem like the manga examples in
Just get into indie/small-publisher stuff

>>149389407
They do, people just vote with their wallets in ways you don't approve of.

>>149389388
Not that anon but I understand his point.
>f people only published one thing, so I let you know comic publishers don't.
But they do, most of the published american comics are capeshit. They make up the majority of the market. To use an example that is close to capeshit if shonen was only allowed to do astro boy rehashes then manga like Rokudenashi Blues would have never existed.

>>149389404
dismissing capeshit is to dismiss 99% of comics and 99% of good comic artists and writers.
What's left doesn't even constitute an industry and could not fill even a single shelf in a book store.

>comics are great!
>just ignore 99% of it, that stuff's all shit! the rest is great though!

>>149389430
>dismissing capeshit is to dismiss 99% of comics and 99% of good comic artists and writers.
You don't have to read their capeshit related works
I like Hickman's Fantastic Four but I'd sooner recommend East of West

>>149388819
Batgod with the demon spawn or DickBat with the demon spawn are not relevant.
Batgod with any other Robin than Dick is not any kind of jumping on point and it's disingenuous to claim.

>>149388685
This is nonsense. Only the first few years are relevant and canon.
>>149388788
>prohibitively long and compiled
And for the below reasons, you simply ignore this take as well.

Everything past the first few years, everything not by the creators - the decades of everything else, is official fan fiction by writers talented and not so talented.

Some of this fan fic has so rotted the mono-culture that these head canons have become THE canon and some writers got into position of power to make THEIR canon THE canon, but it's still glorified PG-13 fap fic tier nonsense.

>>149389427
People can't buy things that aren't even being made.
Comics as an industry from the top down are and always have been extremely cowardly. The editors don't dare try new things for fear it won't sell. They never even tried. They hit it big in the 1940s and just stopped

>>149389405
What are them then? I only keep up with things that interested me. If I haven't read a capeshit comic it means I was not interested in the art or characters but from what I've read I can safely say that the comics were much better before the 00s and they got even worse during the 10s and reached even lower lows during the 2020s

>>149389428
Comics are allowed to do anything, unlike manga magazines which follow cutthroat trend chasing and competition. People just ask that they make more Batman and that makes you butthurt. The latest Astroboy manga is still coming out btw.

>>149389371
Priest sure, but let's not pretend Morrison or Ennis write anything worth shit unless you're a pseudointellectual faggot.

McKay at least actually writes a fucking comic book where Moon Knight is actually fighting crime and has established stakes, not a pretentious fagathon where we spend a dozen pages on Morrison's latest post-munchies brainvomit or Ennis rolling in his own shit demanding to be treated like a series writer for the billionth time.

>>149389437
again, you're just arguing that 99% of comics are shit when you dismiss capeshit. That's not an argument in your favour

>>149389464
>99%
Also when I mean capeshit, I mean Marvel/DC capeshit
Pic related is easily accessible with one run and nothing else
Even if Marvel/DC produce the majority of comics, you can still at least try to find something that'd interest you and start from there
You don't care for superheroes, like other genres, and want something that starts at first volume/issue?
Cool, I can help

>>149389457
I do, in fact, get more out of reading Morrison's humanist treatise in the Invinsibles or Ennin's musings on the consequences of war crimes in Veterans in Get Fury, but I'm not a teenager and don't fit McKay's target demographic.

>>149389456
>Comics are allowed to do anything, unlike manga magazines which follow cutthroat trend chasing and competition.
Lol. The only magazine that feels extremely trend chasing is SJ and no comics are not allowed to do whatever they want. The writers are mostly forced to write capeshit.
>People just ask that they make more Batman
The sales don't reflect that.
>The latest Astroboy manga is still coming out btw.
Are you illiterate? For every Astroboy manga there are hundreds of shonen ips.

>>149389456
>Comics are allowed to do anything
Comic artists and writers aren't even allowed to come up with their own ideas.
You walk into Marvel or DC and show them your idea for a new IP, they'll look at you confused and then have you write Batman reboot #3564. They don't do new things unless you're the top of the top.
Manga on the other hand ONLY do new things. If you walked into Shueisha with your own retelling of Naruto, they'll tell you to fuck off and come up with your own ideas.

>>149389430
>What's left doesn't even constitute an industry and could not fill even a single shelf in a book store.
https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/comics/browse/series?publisher=89
And this is just Fantagraphics

>>149389452
You asked to name examples, I filled up the character limit and you said that wasn't good enough because you said "some are good" in your original post. Now you're asking me to point out which in my list is a recent comic so that you, admitting you haven't read it, can tell me why it's bad. I think the pretense of good faith has fallen through.

>>149389481
>Marvel and DC
which is basically the entirety of the industry for the past 100 years.
Dismissing capeshit is like dismissing instruments when talking about music, all you're left with is church hymns from the 11th century

>>149389484
>The writers are mostly forced to write capeshit.
Robert Crumb does capeshit?

>>149389497
>I filled up the character limit
You didn't.
>that wasn't good enough because you said "some are good" in your original post
It wasn't good because they don't really compare with what we used to have.
>Now you're asking me to point out which in my list is a recent comic so that you, admitting you haven't read it, can tell me why it's bad.
Not at all, I am asking because I genuinely don't know.

>>149389484
>The sales don't reflect that
Sales have been propietary, confidential information not shared with the public in decades. Shame to think I was talking with an educated person.

>>149389501
>Dismissing capeshit is like dismissing instruments when talking about music, all you're left with is church hymns from the 11th century
I'm just saying, if you're not interested in it you could still try and find what you want especially on scan sites
It's not even difficult lol

>>149389503
>guy that did underground comics does capeshit
No but I don't need to explain why that's a garbage argument.

>>149389495
I decided to post a screenshot of this absolute embarrassment you just posted because actually seeing is better than simply telling

I think capeshit is shit, but this is beyond shit.
I don't even believe you if you're trying to argue that this is any good, this is worse than that shit on webtoon. I've seen shit in deviantart better than this.

>>149389489
And you can't walk onto Image why?

>>149389515
Then how do you know that people want Batman?

>>149389519
Raina Telgemeier does mostly capeshit?

>>149389521
They have like 4-5 good series, one of which is just more capeshit. It doesn't make much difference, they're basically irrelevant

>>149389531
Because it gets printed. Why did you say "sales dont reflect that"? Don't dodge the question.

>>149389536
>They have like 4-5 good series,
list them

>>149389542
your mom

>>149389532
No but her stuff is not published by DC/MARVEL.

>>149389520
I haven't read most of them myself and I picked Fantagraphics because they never touch capeshit unless I'm mistaken
It was more that there is variety if you bothered to look for it instead of bitching about an industry you barely know anything about

>>149389489
>You walk into Marvel or DC and show them your idea for a new IP, they'll look at you confused and then have you write Batman reboot #3564. They don't do new things unless you're the top of the top.
Then just don't do Marvel/DC work lol
You could try somewhere else or just self-publish

>>149389540
>Because it gets printed
Then where are all the fans talking about the batman comics. Only the absolute got a little reception.
>Why did you say "sales dont reflect that"?
Because we actually got sales/per comic shops. Should I not trust those?

>>149389536
The fact that you implied Invincible is one of the good Image series and not Copra, or The Power Fantasy, or Assorted Crisis Events, or Grommets, or the Seasons, or Snotgirl. /a/ casuals are something else, man.

>>149389574
Those are polls to a few hundred stores. You are free to trust them as much as you'd trust gauging a movie's success by asking 20 people who bought a ticket.

>>149389576
>Snotgirl
Meh, i didn't enjoy it as much as scott pilgrim

>>149389307
These are 7/10 at best. Grim.

>>149389457
You’re trying way too hard

>>149389489
>Comic artists and writers aren't even allowed to come up with their own ideas.

Another moron who thinks comics are just DC/Marvel

>>149389501
>which is basically the entirety of the industry for the past 100 years.

Why do cunts who know nothing about the subject matter think they have any authority to speak? There are loads of comics that are not DC/Marvel

>>149389851
That anon was specifically talking about Dc/marvel retard.

>>149387215 (OP)
one of the worst bad faith arguments i've ever seen

>>149389881
Because they are an idiot who keeps insisting comics just mean Marvel or DC. Because that’s all these threads do, it’s just a lazy excuse to complain about stupid shit while pretending manga is superior even though all you read is equally shitty shounen

east vs west troll threads are cancer and against >>>/global/rules/3 and >>>/co/rules/1
OP is a faggot.
Fulfill your civic duty to help purge this board of anarchistic, sociopathic, intellectually regressive youtube/reddit/twitter immigrant subhumans like him who are under the delusion that all of 4chan (instead of just the designated shitposting playpens like /b/, /trash/, /bant/, etc.) is a toilet by reporting this thread en masse.
Here's a link so you don't have to scroll up to the top of the page.
https://sys.4chan.org/co/imgboard.php?mode=report&no=149387215

>>149389198
>>149389404
I read everything. I mostly even prefer comics to manga. But what these f/a/gs are saying is on the money. Capes are the biggest genre in comics, the only one I can get threads going for on this shitty board, and they're an absolute clusterfuck. There is no excusing all the bullshit the big two are STILL doing. Why the fuck would you defend shit like constant events and reboots? Why?

>>149387215 (OP)
>So, you gotta read...
>Add in the movies to bloat.
Wew.

>>149389931
It’s what the market wants.

>>149389908
>Because they are an idiot who keeps insisting comics just mean Marvel or DC.
Because the discussion there was about how much freedom capeshit offers compared to shounen manga. It's not hard to follow. It's true that non-capeshit offers way more freedom but that wasn't the point of that chain.
>superior even though all you read is equally shitty shounen
I only read good stuff.

What is the point of American media which is full of virtue signaling if they will keep being dirty assholes with no fairness?
Are they just made to give Americans excuses?

>>149389931
I don't defend events and reboots
I'm just saying you can get into comics without touching those
Sorry for bringing up YouTubers but people like For the Love of Comics and Earl Grey hardly touch capeshit
I know it sucks trying to get a non-cape thread rolling but I mostly succeed with storytiming

>>149387215 (OP)

>>149389962
The market obviously prefers manga.

>Getting rattled by a meme image this hard.
>Can't meme back

>>149390105
It's because the /a/ version is plain fact, while this one stretches the truth and still looks silly. I don't appreciate the /a/ spam, but this is a hard truth every fellow comic fan needs to get into their heads. Maybe then steps can be taken toward cutting out the rot. I love comics, and the comics industry has done more damage to western comics than manga ever could.

>>149390063
>wow you will rape my favorite character again!!! I am so happy!!!
So do capeshitters think that Sazae-san is literally the best tv show ever made?

>>149390105
Why the fuck are you on this board?

>>149390063
Comic runs get cancelled all the time, but unlike manga which get up to 5 chapters to quickly wrap it up, comic runs just end abruptly

>>149390125
I always find this question dumb. Let's say that I love anime/manga but I also somewhat like comics/cartoons. Should I not be here just because I like them a little less?

>>149390063
>>149390118
Kek this. Everyone makes fun of zombie simpsons and family guy. This is a retarded cope. Going forever=/= being good forever.

>>149390117
This. Both comics and manga are the same medium, but one is producing hit after hit while the other has been stagnant for literal decades. There's absolutely no reason why comics can't be just like manga, but they insist on producing nothing but shit and the lack of sales proves it.

>>149390076
Yes, and? The market also doesn’t want to read anything but superheroes

>>149390152
>There's absolutely no reason why comics can't be just like manga

Apart from the entire industry working on a completely different model but sure. And culture zeitgeist being that western comics are lame kiddy shit.

>>149390155
citation needed

>>149390134
No but if you're only here to encourage East vs West threads you're part of the problem

Non-DC and Marvel comics are more in line with the manga standard of one or a few people working on a title (hopefully) with a singular vision of the story and it doesn't get passed off to someone else in a few years.

>>149390152
>There's absolutely no reason why comics can't be just like manga,
Infrastructure
Manga magazines are viable in Japan due to infrastructure
It's why their print media is healthier in general compared to ours'

>>149390160
That's not a reason why, they could easily just stop being retarded. More people read manga in the west than anything from western comic publishers. Marvel and DC could just copy mangas industry structure 1:1 and they would make millions

>>149390174
OK dumbass

>>149390173
>muh trains
This argument is beyond retarded

>>149387215 (OP)
Damn, comics are so easy to get into and manga so hard. Yet more people read manga than comics... far more. What a tragedy, I want to kill myself.

>>149390182
Go on then tell me why Marvel and DC couldn't do the following:
>allow artists to create original works
>host competitions to attract new talent
>publish comics based on rankings
>faithfully adapt comics into cartoons

>>149390191
>allow artists to create original works
We had it, it was called Vertigo
>faithfully adapt comics into cartoons
Because Burgerland's animation industry is fucked
>publish comics based on rankings
Rankings work when everyone can everything at once like how manga magazines function in Japan
People aren't gonna put everything in their pull list


>>149390183
Do you seriously WSJ issues like the ones they make in Japan would sell in America after pic related failed?

>>149390173
That's basically only relevant to major magazines and manga that are already famous, though. Bookstores are dying in Japan too.

>>149389908
NTA but "Muh Non-cape comics!" would be a way stronger argument if there were non-cape comics with any meaningful success or relevancy. The closest you get are just "Functionally Capeshit and immediately cape adjacent" like Judge Dredd, licensed shit that notoriously borrows all of Capeshit's crippling flaws like refusing to do bread and butter stories like Sonic, Power Rangers, or TMNT, Scholastic fodder, Indieslop like Saga, or the inevitable "Muh Asterix and Obelix, muh European Donald Duck" fronting trying to pretend those have any substantial impact or interest with the public. And most of those are basically irrelevant fodder around like 1 or 2 comics that have been running since the 90s or had their license passed around by publishers like a roofied cheerleader in the football lockerroom after the big game.

Like it or not, even in this crippled fucking state, Capeshit is like 90%of the relevant industry. No shit people focus on capeshit for these comparisons, the big two are the only ones with the tiny shred of impact in the industry and the output to even be in the conversation.

>>149390210
>Vertigo
"we tried it once and it kinda flopped so I guess we should just give up"
>animation industry fucked
well fix it, there's money to be made
>rankings
Can you rephrase this, I think you've missed some words
>WSJ issues
It got canned during an historic low for mangas popularity in the west, manga is now 100x more popular than that time, but I'm not talking about Shueisha, I'm talking about Marvel and DC, they should make their own WSJ esque anthology magazine

>>149390225
>No shit people focus on capeshit for these comparisons
We'd be a healthier board if we had people who aren't into capeshit but are into comics.
The board and comic discussion in general would be better if we highlighted and discussed more non-capeshit and show it exists as comparatively small it may be.
Stop trying to turn a "Marvel and DC" problem into a "comics as a whole" problem when it stops being a problem once more people are aware of comics outside of Marvel and DC which these threads don't help.
If you're in an East vs West thread and all you do is bring up capeshit, I'm naturally gonna assume you're ignorant of non-capeshit and proceed to help you out so excuse me for even trying.

>>149390191
>allow artists to create original works
They have done that. Why would anyone want to give rights to DC and Marvel when they have several other publishers who could do it better and let the creatives retain rights?
>host competitions to attract new talent
There are way better ways to attract talent than competitions.
>publish comics based on rankings
Shounen readers fucking idiots. They already do that based on actual sales you moron! Rankings don’t mean anything when you don’t publish anthologies!
>faithfully adapt comics into cartoons
Because nobody wants that.

>>149390225
>if there were non-cape comics with any meaningful success or relevancy

Ah so you don’t know wtf you are talking about, okay.

>>149390246
>Because nobody wants that.
I do actually
I've always supported a better symbiosis between comic fans and cartoon fans

>>149390233
>kinda flopped
Vertigo lasted a pretty long time with multiple acclaimed comics
>rankings
When everyone can read everything at once
>own WSJ esque anthology
Okay now where do you sell it?
>well fix it
Easier said than done

>>149390251
name a non-cape comic that has meaningful success or relevancy

I like these threads. You wanna know why?
Because these are the threads that get the most comic book discussion out of any other fucking thread, including /shelf/.
You cocksuckers let my comic threads die on a daily basis (and sometimes you let /shelf/ die), but this gets hundreds of replies every time. FUCK YOU.

>>149390210
IIRC, a big part of what fucked the western jump was that at some point someone mysteriously contracted all of the companies capable of producing large quantities of mixed-material large print magazines in a timely fashion and had them on hold for max capacity output, paid in advance, for like 6 months straight and fucked their entire logistic chain because it turns out that decent quality, large scale pages of multiple types produced and bound in the same facility is actually a bit of a big ask and there weren't very many that could pump them out in the needed quantities in the US because of how absurdly specific that is, let alone ones well located for distribution. Combined with sales that were just "Okay" a lot of the time and the resulting loss in uptime and logistical headaches was what apparently got them shuttered.

Who did it, supposedly, is a mystery.

>>149390258
>where do you sell it
just copy what Shueisha does
Host it free online for the latest 3 chapters, and the rest behind a paywall.
If it makes manga millions, it can make comics millions, just so long as the comics are good

>>149390259
Maus?
Persepolis?
Smile?
Bone?

>>149390245
>We'd be a healthier board if we had people who aren't into capeshit but are into comics.
There aren't that many people interested into comics at all and even 15 years ago when comics were way more popular on /co/ people were mostly discussing capeshit. There are storytimes for other stuff but unless it's usagi yojimbo or something like that people don't care. The ship has mostly sailed.

>>149390261
>that get the most comic book discussion out of any other fucking thread, including /shelf/.
Kek, this is true.

>>149390269
Not the point
Manga is ubiquitous in Japan
Good lucking trying to convince your local average store to take the risk and stock a compilation of random comics

>>149390271
none of this is popular, nobody who isn't a comics nerd has heard of this, but everybody has heard of Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc

>>149390272
This year and past had a couple good non-cape storytime threads

I'm gonna say it now, the movies are flopping, and they're the only thing that's keeping comics alive.
Diamond has just gone kicking and screaming to the grave.
Marvel and DC will shutter their comics departments within a few years from now.
This will cause the remaining few comic book stores to close for good.
Image, IDW, and Dark Horse will follow shortly after.
The entire western comics industry will completely collapse.
Shueisha will swoop in and set up shop in the west, hiring the leftover comic artists, but they'll be forced to write their own stories.
Out of these, a couple good western manga will appear
The future is manga

>>149390258
NTA but
>Okay now where do you sell it?
Has always been part of basically an intentional psyop by the industry for awhile, you have to keep in mind that "In life support, useful enough and making just enough to struggle along" is basically exactly where the majority of the people actually working in the Big Two want it because they basically get to play pretend and not do actual work and get paid for it because they have basically no oversight or actual demands to try and be productive and can just tool around.

Distribution is piss easy. We know this. It's been repeatedly proven in even shitholes like Poland if you just put comics in a fucking kiosk in the toy isle, shit sells just fucking fine.Put manga and shit cheap in convenience stores and it sells great all over the fucking planet. Some magazines struggle, but they and national papers manage to ship out and stay afloat all the fucking time in the US, arriving on time on a fucking *daily* basis in some cases. Manga in the US sells *fine* anywhere it is sold.

Distribution and audience capture is not this magical impossible problem that arose in the 90s [because of what they fucking did] that Marvel and DC try to pretend it is just so that nobody will ask them to consider upping their productivity rates and return to Shooter-era output. Anyone arguing otherwise is running a psyop, unironically swallowing the lie without realizing it, or retarded.

>>149390282
>present evidence of business model that has seen wild success
>we should copy it
>"no I don't think it'll make money!"

>>149390309
Because manga is more readily, easily accessible and has the same benefits in Japan print media in general has there

>>149390304
>but they'll be forced to write their own stories.
>fffffffuuuuck!!! I can't write batman??? I have to make up my own guy??? Suck my batarang you greedy jap publisher!!! I feel like I am locked in Arkham Asylum!!!

>>149390233
Vertigo ran for two decades and the sales on new titles kept failing until they were consistently shit and the only reason Vertigo existed was because it had handful of old and long running titles.
>MUH SHOUNEN

For once in my life I wish someone would actually talk about yuri or seinen or fucking any other genre publishing works. But no, you watched couple of episodes of Bakuman a decade ago and now you think you’re a manga publishing expert

>>149390316
*you can't simply replicate that success here in America because mass change like that doesn't happen overnight and ignores various other factors that make one system viable in one location and not the other

>>149389501
It gets out-sold by children's comics all the time.

Capeshit's the Country Music of Comics.

>>149390259
Walking Dead
Peanuts
Garfield

Why would you even care about their sales or want comics to be like manga? I don't get it.
You just can read manga if you want something like manga.

That kind of mindset is making it worse after all. Why do they even need to compete?
That is the reason why you see those retards shilling anime-like catoons/comocs while shitting on Japan and denying Japanese influences in their works on /co/. That's absurd and despicable.
/co/ media and its creaters should forget about Japan as much as possible and it's okay for them and their fans to have more elitist attitudes, That can be much better than now.

>>149390323
>For once in my life I wish someone would actually talk about yuri or seinen or fucking any other genre publishing works
Nta but they are demographics not genre and battle shonen is the western equivalent of capeshit so no shit they are the ones that get compared. The other manga should be compared with non-capeshit comics.

>>149390271
>Maus
Artpiece that nobody outside of comics circles or people really into the holocaust knows about
>Persepolis
Irrelevant shit some people bought for their "Introduction to Eastern Feminism" course project and then never actually read.
>Smile
Literally what even is this. Some Scholastic slop nobody read, according to google.
>Bone
I'm gonna tell you to look me in the eye while you ask yourself if you truly believe Bone has even the same relevance as a C-lister like Blue Beetle III because I wanna see the exact moment you have to be honest with yourself. That said, this scholastic staple is probably the most culturally relevant thing you mentioned, but it's also been out of production for 21 fucking years and was again, scholasticslop about three whacky looking literal walking femurs, nobody who wasn't into comics or 12 in the spring of 2003 knows what the fuck Bone is or that it even existed.

>>149390259
Scott Pilgrim

>>149390261
I think it's because not all of us even buy or have shit to display.
That and we're easily baited masochists.
The big problem with comic discussion is that while we have plenty of people who do read non-cape, barely any of our actual interests past that broad topic overlaps.
>You cocksuckers let my comic threads die
What threads do you make?

>>149390316
>Because manga is more readily, easily accessible and has the same benefits in Japan print media in general has there
Gee I wonder who it was that made the deliberate decisions to undermine or remove all of the equivalent advantages here in the united states in the late 80s through the 90s and who insist that it's just impossible to fix because the market magically changed, so they could never make a profit if they did more comics regularly and on a schedule tighter than monthly, nothing for it hoss, sorry, better leave them alone to go back to pretending they're Jack Kirby and that they're gonna make the definitive story just like the ones they're ripping off but BETTER from their childhood memories and their own, ah, creative genius.

Definitely none of the people involved there would do anything like lie incessantly, through their teeth, while deliberately ignoring and making excuses for all the data points that prove them objectively wrong in aggregate.

>>149389418
>Jimmy Corrigan
>Buddy
>Frank
>Milk and Cheese
>Cerebus
No clue who the others are, guess I haven't been reading enough indie stuff.

>>149390358
>>149390245
I've noticed that there is quite a big divide between people that read capeshit and people that read other comics, hell now capeshitters have started using /dbs/ slang so it feels like they belong even more in their own criclejerk.

>>149390369
https://momentofcerebus.blogspot.com/2017/01/indy-jam.html

>>149390323
Being fair that's because most of Vertigo's line up was pretentious and just actually garbage, even a lot of the long runners were coasting heavily on inertia from being started by the British invasion and propped by their names and reputation. Very few of them were interested in actually being a good or interesting story so much as showing off how much of a serious for real artistic writer the authors were or just taking shots at capeshit like the bitter nerd seething that the Jock actually had friends.

>>149390375
Besides Omaha The Cat Dancer, I have never heard of or seen any of the others discussed.

>>149390358
>>149390370
I read it all, and it still doesn't help. My most successful threads are superhero threads, but I make threads about all sorts of genres and levels of popularity. If you see a thread about a comic most people haven't heard about, or something long forgotten, I probably made it.

>>149390370
When COVID came along a bunch of zoomers found out about scan sites and got REALLY into capeshit
I know people like to rightfully shit on recappers on places like YouTube or TikTok but some of the biggest people online who are into shit like Bronze Age Superman or Hawkman lore or old Avengers runs are ESLs barely in their 20's and they honestly know more about comics than the average Anon....unfortunately they're almost all universally pure capeshitters
You think some of them bleed into here?

>>149390402
>You think some of them bleed into here?
Yes

>>149390396
Huh, I storytime non-cape myself when I figure a normal thread wouldn't normally last
More "hits" than "duds" but if the storytime gets going it might help in the long term with more people familiar to talk and recommend it in threads

>>149388876
actually it's
>the west can't meme

>>149390348
NTA but while that's a good shot, Scott is pretty fucking close to being capeshit outright complete with having a whacky rogues gallery to fight headed by a literal supervillain.

>>149390063
morelike "my character got ruined completely by libtards"

the west can't meme

>>149389317
Anon I get what you mean, but, sincerely from /m/ here, if you think Evangelion was anything other than a rehash consider killing yourself, Eva's a monument to the power of advertising and how much a good song or three can carry your anime and that's not even hyperbole. It's so unoriginal that every single episode up until a certain point is literally a whole-sale rip off of a different B-movie script every time because Anno frequently would just use shitty movies he watched as guides for an episode. Nothing Eva did was new other than be kind of badly written and bitter, and act as an animated mood ring for Anno's fluctuating mental state during production.

>>149390478
Use my example here for another better comparison >>149389428

>>149389301
It does help but outside of the guys writing the wiki who have schizo episodes and try to declare them noncanon, and a couple of fags, most of us admit the novels are by and large bandaids. They do help, but by the end of things you are absolutely still only here because you think Ichigo is a good protagonist and wanna see how it plays out or you have just regular sunk cost fallacy because holy fuck can you tell that the series was originally gonna end with Aizen.

>>149389250
>The fact that you have to ask a community is a sign that it's too convluted.
The fact that you have to ask, just to be told to start at the beginning, is a sign that you're just fucking retarded.