Heh, nothing personal kid

>Singlehandedly
Let's be honest, they had no fucking idea what to do after Endgame and they should have just ended things there and gone dormant for a decade. But the execs just couldn't stop the money train.

>>149656280
Oh there's no denying they had various duds before AM3, and yeah dropping a ton of shit to Disney+ ultimately caused a wreck in the studio. It's simply that Quantumania was the one that made audiences draw the line.

I could only make it till the first third of the movie before thinking 'this feels like Spy Kids 3D or that kind of crappy-valley cgi'

>>149656381
It's probably the ugliest looking MCU film

In a way, I'm glad that this movie bombed so hard. Kang is a lame villain with a boring gimmick and I hated that he was the next big antagonist after Thanos.

>>149656416
They also essentially already did his gimmick by having Thanos from another timeline pop up to finish the job of the first one.

>>149656416
Funniest part is Kang wasn't supposed to be the final villain of the saga, and was only promoted because they really liked Majors' acting while they were shooting Loki.

>>149656171 (OP)
Except it wasn't that, it was Multiverse of Madness.
>>149656280
Reductionist take. People were still hyped for the MCU before MoM came out and soured everyone.

>>149656469
MoM got a mixed reception, but did not completely erode people's interest. Love and Thunder was way more derided, yet it still managed to turn a profit, and was followed by BP2 which was both comercially and critically succesful. They were showing cracks with the public, but the trust didn't completely derailed before AM3. Even though GotG 3 was succesful, nobody took it as a sign that the studio could be trusted from then on.

Marvel apparently where surprised that this movie did so poorly, they where sure this was going to be their next Endgame. Did the previous Antman movies did that well?

>>149656520
They didn't do badly but were some of the lowest grossing Pre-Endgame films. They were really just relying on the Kang hype the built up before it's release.

>>149656492
I distinctly remember it feeling like the real cape fatigue started after MoM. Before that there were still chances of getting things back on track and things even looked bright in 2021 with the four Marvel series getting active discussion, No Way Home being a hype powerhouse, and Shang-Chi being a mild success (it's a mediocre movie but if it came out just a couple years later if would've probably been torn to shreds instead of receiving the lukewarm perception it did in 2021). But then MoM came out and it was like a switch flipped, and all the doomposting predictions people had been making for years finally started coming true and everyone started actively speaking out against MCU and capes in general. Love and Thunder was just one of the first signs of that, and then BP2 just kinda came and went, having a fraction of the first movie's interest and discussion, and then it was mostly downhill from there.

>>149656416
You only think that cause they botched what should've been the natural followup to the MCU introducing time travel. I have no idea why they didn't just ripoff EMH while adapting Kang or just draw from his actual great characterisation and stories from Busiek instead of focusing on the variant stuff that is usually a minor aspect at best for Kang while casting an actor who didn't fit him at all or capture any fo.his actual personality or arsenal that makes him an enduring Avengers villain.....yes I'm the one person who actually likes Kang and is seething he got the poor adaption treatment like other insert marvel character done dirty by MCU here.

>>149656469
I still can't tell if it's shills who keep trying to push the falsehood that everyone checked out after Endgame and nothing Disney could have done differently would have kept the MCU popular, or if it's just hugely autistic retards who are genuinely angry they have the audacity to keep making movies after one titled 'Endgame'.

>>149656492
MCU hype was still strong enough in 2022 that Multiverse of Madness and Love & Thunder both made money, both opened strong but cratered quickly with bad reviews, bad word of mouth, and fans just not happy with how some of the remaining Phase 1-3 characters they liked were being treated.

BP2 succeeded largely on the strength of being a memorial for Boseman, and having the black audience show up in numbers like they did for the first BP movie, so Ant-Man 3 bore the brunt of normies starting to check out of the MCU after being burned by MoM and L&T.

GoTG3 and Deadpool & Wolverine being the only successes since then is basically telling us what the new normal is; they can succeed when they have characters/stars the audience likes and is already invested in, especially if they also keep the directors and writers from previous successful movies. But the MCU isn't the big cool popular thing anymore, and nobody's going to see movies about characters they don't already know or care about anymore just because it's the new MCU thing.

Eternals was where the magic broke

>>149656567
Yeah, 2022 was when the discussion started, but it firmly set in 2023 after the failures of Quantumania, The Marvels, and all of that year's DC films.

>>149656171 (OP)
I can't say enough pissed I am that none of these characters on the poster where their masks, especially since every one of these characters visuals are highly defined by them especially Kang and Ant-Man/Wasp. Suppose a perfect red flag for the film doing exactly the same bullshit.

>>149656582
Eternals was just a stinker in a then-generally well-liked line-up. Being followed by No Way Home did a lot to mitigate its damage, but the later movies had no such luck.

>>149656582
It's failure had NWH coming out little than a month after, so they were able to pass it up as a minor dud at the time.

>>149656492
WandaVision gained them a lot of hype, which MoM immediately torpedoed. More importantly, it was really the first moment where they actually angered fans with how they handled things. That's more important than Love and Thunder being the Black Sheep to Ragnarok's Tommy Boy. AM3, much like Wandavision/MoM, was another instance of Marvel not understanding why people liked their material. While not the most successful, the Ant-Man films were highly regarded and loved for being structured as heist films backed by strong characters and their interactions. And for Quantumania they decided to throw all that out.

>>149656626
A big part of it came from the director, who was tired of the Ant-Man films being small scale and of no great impact to the larger MCU.

>>149656597
Even GOTG 3 did this with Star-Lord's lack of his iconic helmet, because I guess actors like Pratt are just too vain to hide their face for 5 fucking minutes.

>>149656663
I remember reading it was a desicion by Gunn to stick it up to the studio, since he had Peter's helmet destroyed in Vol.2 yet the Russos still used it in IW/Endgame. Gunn was vocal on how he didn't like the use of the Guardians on those films and so tried to dissasociate from what went down there.

>>149656663
It's genuinely so tiring since it's just striping away such great design work and iconic character designs for actors fragile pride or cause they can't try body acting. Fuck, it's even more egregious on Kang's case since you still see his face even if it's a futuristic mask even in the comics and cartoons, it literally could've just been makeup or a prosthetic so no excuse.

>>149656461
I think they actually added Majors to Loki as a Kang variant because they were impressed by him while filming Quantumania and that's when they decided he would be the next Thanos

>>149656716
Yeah, one way or the other, the thing was that Majors wasn't supposed to be the pillar of the saga originally. The original plan for Loki was having He Who Remains be revealed as an older Loki variant, but they switched to Kang due to them thinking it would fit neatly into the larger arc.

>>149656707
More moronic by having them take off the helmet in the middle of a fucking battle

>>149656716
Honestly Majors was miscast as Kang even without the beating stuff. You need an actor who can really express his voice, have expressions that can shift from stoic to sneering or contemptuous and willing to wear the blue face mask which I will not get over. Shoulda just had Peter Serafinowicz play him again from the Lego game.

>>149656740
It feels like a thing ripe for a film or show to parody, like it's a superhero style documentary and an interviewee talks about how Mach Master kept nanoing his helmet away for shilling and despite being warned by other heroes. Eventually he got lasered in the head by infamous supervillain The Final Light who laughs it up in his prison interview.

>>149656567
BP2 also had a lot of sentimental value going for it after Chadwick's death, and in general the two films look pretty different from regular MCU films so it attracted even non-capeshit fans. just like Shang-Chi's wuxia focus and GOTG being a fun Flash Gordon-style sci-fi trilogy

>>149656280
>they should have just ended things there and gone dormant for a decade. But the execs just couldn't stop the money train.

You gotta make hay while the sun shines you retard.

>>149656707
>>149656663

The reason actors don't wear masks is the same reason why they gave Optimus Prime and Ultron lips; People can't relate to expresionless faces. It sucks but that's humans for you.

>>149656663
while this sucks I can also cut Gunn some slack because of this >>149656684

>>149656579
>I still can't tell if it's shills who keep trying to push the falsehood that everyone checked out after Endgame and nothing Disney could have done differently would have kept the MCU popular, or if it's just hugely autistic retards who are genuinely angry they have the audacity to keep making movies after one titled 'Endgame'.
100% they are, like others have said the MCU fatigue began with the gazillion D+ shows but it didn't fully settle in until DS2

>>149656859
He also went on record to say that if Vol.3 had come out befor Love and Thunder as originally planned (Vol.3 was supposed to be the first film in the Multiverse Saga), he still wouldn't have had Thor in the film since he didn't like that desicion.

>>149656852
Slight tangent but making Ultron's face expressive was missing the point so much since how emotive despite his delusions of robotic superiority, psyoric daddy issues and generally being filled with personality contrasted against his frozen unemotional and visually iconic face

>>149656578
Kang being more about his variants than time travel must be a side effect of trying shove him into the multiverse saga

>>149656171 (OP)
So why did they get rid of Scott's crew? They were pretty fun in the first movie

>>149657584
The director said they simply didn't have a place in the story.

>>149656582
>was where the magic broke
it was in 2019 after all those normalfags left the ship, all those anon who worked for free as disney shill in the twitter wars 2013-2018, left after thanos and rober downey junior died.

They are 45 years old now, 2 children, married and huge mortgage.

>>149658201
It hasn't been that many years yet

>>149657584
Michael Peña is scientologist and they forbade any of their members of acting in any Marvel movie because they believed The Eternals was making fun of their beliefs

>>149658822
Ah, that fuckin' sucks.

>>149658894
>Execs looked at this and said: "yeah, it's prompt for release"

>>149656927
Sorry but this is cope, no way home, guardians 3 and deadpool + wolverine were the last few flashes anyone cared about post-endgame

>>149656171 (OP)
It was the straw that broke the camel's back.

>>149659081
Nah, MoM's hype was fucking huge. That the film turned out to be heavily divisive is another thing, but the interest was there.

>>149659187
The only real issue with the shows was the retarded scheduling. Doing your first show on Disney+ 2 years after Endgame was just stupid.

>>149658894
I hate this because of two things: The Ant-Man helmet is cool as fuck and should get more screen time; when Kang breaks his helmet is meant to be symbolic, Scott is on the ropes and can't use his powers, not fighting as Ant-Man but just as a him, he's a hero even without the suit. So not showing the helmet a lot doesn't create that separation between Ant-Man and Scott for the final showdown.

>>149659246
Tbf that was due to Covid, the shows were originally supposed to kickstart around May 2020, a year after Endgame (in fact TFATWS was supposed to be the first show), but lockdown fucked up their scheduling. It also affected some plot points in the films.

>>149659280
Even 1 year was too much at least one show should've been released with the launch of the streaming app.

Why was Kang the bad guy in an Ant-Man movie anyway.

>>149659887
The original pitch was to make a "David vs Goliath" story, pitting Scott against an Avengers level villain. As said above, Kang was supposed to only be in this film, before it was decided to make him the main villain of the saga.

>>149656171 (OP)
Why did they think following up two down to earth heist movies with some mad science added in for flavor and comedy could be followed up with current year Sharkboy and Lavagirl? What made that a sound decision?

>>149660096
The director wanted to change the mood, as far back as the second movie he wanted to explore the Quantum Realm because he's a fan of sci-fi/cosmic stuff.

What if we just played MODOK straight, have him be the antagonist over Kang, and have him take over the Quantum realm?

>>149656171 (OP)
>Have two relatively successful caper/heist adventure movies
>Let's make the third one a conceptual, bland cgi filled sci-fi slug fest.

And it failed!? That's so craaaaaaaazy!

>>149660223
I remember reading that another pitch for the movie (and that it was actually Rudd's preffered version) had Scott and Hope lead the Young Avengers against MODOK and A.I.M.

>>149659246
The shows had pretty shit writing as well. Not worse than usual but far more noticeable now that they’re stretching them out across episodes and have more runtime than movies.

>>149660321
They took the wrong approach by having the mindset of "let's treat a show like a 6 hour movie instead", not even having showrunners for most of them. It took them until seeing how utterly bad Born Again was turning out that they reestructured their TV division.

>>149659246
>>149656579
>>149656280
>>149656171 (OP)
The other part where they really fucked up was around 2019 all movies had to be very intricately interconnected to each other.

In Phase 1 and 2 all the movies could stand on their own feet and they had at best a little nod to another move with a random guest appearance or so. but overall anyone could jump into an Iron Man, Ant-Man, or Thor movie and just watch that without much knowledge of what else is going on in the MCU.

Slightly before Endgame you now had to do some research and homework to know what is going on in other movies because there were bits of information that was necessary. Post Endgame, it became an absolute necessity. You now had to go get Disney+ and watch whole seasons of multiple shows because now all the movies were direct sequels to the shows and you have to see them to have any kind of an idea what the fuck was going on.

>Multiverse of Madness requires you to watch WandaVision or else you have no fucking clue why Scarlet Witch is evil now or why she is after some kid. The movie explains nothing.
>Deadpool Wolverine requires you to watch 2 seasons of Loki or else nothing makes any fucking sense at all, just....zero sense of any kind.
>Quantumania requires you to watch Loki just to know who the fucking villain is or what his deal is.
>Thunderbolts requires you to watch Falcon and Winter Soldier since all the characters are introduced in that and explains why Bucky is not some hiding felon any longer, or explains who the fuck evil Elaine is.
>Marvels needs you to have watched both WandaVision and Mrs Marvel or else there is no fucking point in trying to watch that movie, you are not going to get it.

I don't want to have to do homework and read up on wiki articles to watch a fucking movie. A movie needs to stand on it's own legs. MCU totally forgot this back in 2021.

>>149660096
>>149660253
Many people called the Ant-Man movies palate cleansers and Peyton Reed decided to take a big swing and be a big blockbuster for once

>Could've made MODOK into a skin crawling abomination
>Made him into a joke instead
What were they thinking?

>>149660476
This, since MoM every single MCU movie is now a sequel to some Disney+ show and at best an advertisement for the next big bad that's coming in a few years. The movies have no stakes or purpose since everything is now a middle chapter for the REAL story that's coming in a few years.

It's annoying that they are making the same mistakes ad comics, they are trying to force audiences into other things and reading other books/watching other shows just to get thew full story now. I don't want to have to watch some show about characters I do not like or care about just to get the actual story behind the movie that I do care about right here right now.

Comic do this all the time, cannot read a 6 part Spider-Man story because part 4 will take place in Moon Knight or Daredevil and I just want the fucking Spider-Man story. I never want to read some other book but they do this shit to advertise other characters too and it's annoying.

>ant-man 1 and 2 going into the quantum realm makes shit get freaky
>ant-man 3 going into the quantum realm just puts you on a greenscreen alien world
>but uh going even smallerer makes the freaky shit happen again for some reason
Seriously did this get explained and I just missed it because I was too bored to pay attention? I'll own up if I'm just wrong.

>>149660556
Movie 3 quantum realm was just a typical metropolitan place with cities and cars but the sky is pink with weird shit floating in it. nothing really special or alien about it. It was boring and stupid looking.

>>149656171 (OP)

>>149660476
You don't have to watch WandaVision to understand MoM. MoM's problem is that it only makes sense to itself. If you watched WandaVision then MoM ignores Wanda's character arc and if you didn't watch WandaVision it fails to properly contextualize the events that led to Wanda's position in the film despite bringing them up. The WandaVision showrunner made some statements during production that were taken to imply a fairly low opinion of Disassembled and House of M, but in retrospect could be applied to MoM's use of the character.

>>149660478
Lmao people saying the Ant-Man films were palate cleansers was generaly a praise of their lighthearted nature, not something to diminish them.

>>149660695
Also, the WandaVision and MoM production teams had almost zero communication with each other, hence the contradictory nature of Wanda's character from one work to another.

>>149660739
He took that personally I think, he was the one that pushed for a big action sci-fi blockbuster for the third one.

Wanda fans really overstate how much of that movie’s divisiveness comes from her character arc. General audiences were hyped from Spider-Man: No Way Home, leak culture was at an all-time high and promising stuff like Tom Cruise as Superior Iron Man and the entire FoX-Men cast, and the movie didn’t deliver on the scope or the memberberries they had been expecting. Also, Sam Raimi’s campy aesthetics were surprisingly controversial for how much people glaze his Spider-Man movies.

>>149660476
Good point, they should have taken a breather with interconnectivity. Maybe 3-5 years of stand-alone movies, and then they could pick and choose which characters to roll forward with.

>>149660764
IIRC the writer of MoM was being updated about the WandaVision scripts to avoid rehashing material. However since Olsen immediately started filming MoM after WandaVision wrapped there is no way the later episodes of WandaVision could play into MoM's scriptwriting unless they were writing the script during filming.

>>149660801
You know what else was a blockbuster? Ocean's Eleven. Ant-Man and Co. versus Modok and AIM, toss in a prologue fight and a fight scene in the second act, there you go, action sci-fi blockbuster that doesn't fuck with the formula.

>>149660955
Sam Raimi said that he was two-thirds or more of the way through the new plot for Multiverse of Madness (he and the screenwriter completely rewrote it during the COVID delay) before they even told him "WandaVision" existed.

Then there was some attempt to create a throughline or eliminate redunancies but they couldn't actually change the fact that they had Wanda go through the exact same story twice.

I think in general Multiverse of Madness was a movie that delivered absolutely nothing people wanted to see. No Doctor Strange/Scarlet Witch team-up, no one-on-one fight between those two characters, no character growth for either character, not really much multiverse.

But the only thing they actually tried to fix in reshoots was adding a couple of extra cameos as if that mattered. The Illuminati gag was funny because it acknowledge the total pointlessness of cameos, bringing them on only to die instantly -- the No Way Home guest stars are different because they're part of the franchise and integral to the story.

>>149660955
Just repeating what he said in interviews, he was also the reason the Quantum Realm was in Ant-Man1 in the first place, it's clear where his interests lie. He also pitched a FF movie to Fox years before the MCU was thing, he likes that sort of thing, trippy silver age aesthetic, Reed is a literal baby boomer

>>149656171 (OP)
It was this, love and thunder, Agatha, secret invasion. These were all the most dog shit that ultimately ruined hype for any marvel propaganda

>>149656171 (OP)
This movie has EVERYTHING people hate about Marvel. EVERYTHING.

>Pointless, unfunny quips
>unearned emotional moments
>cynical, unlikable characters
>bad CGI
>cringe dialogue
>unable to stand on its own
>horrible editing

>>149660555
Thinking they could use Disney+ shows to launch movie stars was the most bizarre decision of this whole MCU era.

Back when the MCU was riding high, they didn't usually promote new characters as the stars of a sequel because most people don't know who they are yet. Sam Wilson barely exists in the promotion for Captain America: The Winter Soldier, ditto the Maximoff twins for Avengers 2. Instead you focus on the characters audiences know, and let them discover the new characters.

With The Marvels, not only didn't they give Carol a popular Avenger for her sequel like Cap got, the poster was Carol and two characters/actors who were new to movies. Thunderbolts offered one guy from the glory days of the franchise and a bunch of TV characters.

But on the other hand the stories of the movies have very little to do with the streaming shows when they don't outright contradict them. But of course people are going to feel like they have to do "homework" if they see that the movie is partly about people who only appeared in a streaming series.

>>149661785
His pitch for FF actually had the film take place in the 60's, but I doubt they'd acknowledge it when discussing the new film.

>>149656749
Honestly the guy that played High Evolutionary did a better job

>>149661827
2023 was their breaking point, to the extent that they reestructured their TV division and halted many of their productions. And to think that they wanted for Kang Dynasty and Seccret Wars to come out 6 months from each other lmao.

Quantumania wasn't a true Ant-Man movie, they should get a part 4.

adapt Young Avengers so we can have Iron Lad and a resolution to Kang. it'll be fun to see Scott run his own little league team next to Sam's Avengers and Bucky's Thunderbolts

>>149661898
The events of Endgame fucked their status quo, QM it's trying to do the heavyt lifting of two storylines, when they should have dealt with the Endgame fallout and the whole Cassie is now a teenager while Scott missed 5 years of her life.

>>149658822
>because they believed The Eternals was making fun of their beliefs
Everyone makes fun of their beliefs, even the creator of Scientology made fun of his followers because he only created a religion to steal money from rich idiots.

>>149662051
Eternals is pure Chariots of the Gods/ancient astronauts stuff, how is it anything like Scientology?

>>149662041
naaah, Scott knows what's like to miss out on his daughter growing up. he would see the way the world is going and try to rebuild the avengers only to come up short. it's the kind of half-ass effort he's good at.

>>149659887
>Why was Kang the bad guy in an Ant-Man movie anyway.
>Why was Ghost the bad guy in an Ant-Man movie?
>Why were Mandarin and the Dweller in Darkness the bad guys in a Shang-Chi movie?
>Why was Taskmaster the bad guy in a Black Widow movie?
>Why was an obscurity like Kaecilius the villain in a Doctor Strange movie?
>Why was Scarlet Witch the villain in the other Doctor Strange movie?
>Why was Namor the villain of a Black Panther movie?
>Why was Dar-Benn, a minor male Kree character the female villain of a Captain Marvel movie?
>Why was Alexander Pierce, a SHIELD agent from the comics, the bad guy in a Captain America movie?
>Why was Aldrich Killian, a character who appeared in a few pages of one comic story, the villain of an Iron Man movie?
>Why were the Leader and Red Hulk the villains of a Falcon movie?
Sometimes the MCU just does weird stuff. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

>>149656416
>Have the universal master of reality in a time travel plot
>Put time traveler in multiverse storyline
Thank GOD they scrapped this shit, I couldn't do 20 years of this shit when DC is killing it in the solo movie market, just let solo characters / teams have their own self contained story, the stakes don't matter, but getting member berry bombed is not a substitute for actual movie making.

>>149660476
>Deadpool Wolverine requires you to watch 2 seasons of Loki or else nothing makes any fucking sense at all, just....zero sense of any kind.
I literally did not watch Loki or the first two deapool movies and I wasn't lost at all. It was pretty fucking obvious what was going on. Multiversal overseers want to destroy deadpool's universe because it's unstable, Deadpool doesn't want that to happen, ergo Deadpool has to find a way to save his universe.
>Thunderbolts requires you to watch Falcon and Winter Soldier since all the characters are introduced in that and explains why Bucky is not some hiding felon any longer, or explains who the fuck evil Elaine is.
I did not watch Black Widow 2 or Falcon and the Winter Soldier and I was fine. It was obvious that Yelena was a super soldier, and it was obvious that Bucky was now a hero after the events of Endgame

>>149660816
It seems more like permanently online people who went all in on believing the leaks about cameos have convinced themselves that the entire hype for that movie was just memberberries cameos and they're drastically overstating how much the general public knew or cared about any of that. People don't generally get hyped up about a movie because Tom Cruise MIGHT have a cameo in it, nor end up hating the movie because he didn't, and in 2025 nobody except the most hardcore of X-Men fans really cares about seeing the non Hugh Jackman Fox X-Men cast again. Whether the issue was what they did to Wanda or whether it was something else, the reason a lot of audiences disliked MoM was for the things it did do, people generally aren't that irrational that they'd be that angry about the things a movie didn't do, but some rumors online said might happen.

>>149662904
>but getting member berry bombed is not a substitute for actual movie making.
Somehow Disney built two entire MCU phases around memberberries cameos from old movies, but Tobey, Jackman and Deadpool are the only things they could do that normies would actually care about and they've played all three of those cards already, they've drastically overestimated how popular a lot of the other old Marvel movies were.

As awful as the Multiverse Saga is, it sounds like they're following it with "The Mutant Saga", which has the potential to be even worse if they go Full Metaphor on everything.

>>149662843
I thought namor hated Wakanda and Black Panther in the comics. Makes sense to me

>>149663106
They're never going to be able to sell a full metaphor X-Men to the moviegoing public. Too many people are going to point out that you can't have an oppression narrative and a power fantasy at the same time without needing to undercut one of them by the end.

>>149663041
I was there. Even normies were talking about Cruise, FoX-Men, Ghost Cage, etc.

>>149663369
Anon, it was three years ago. We were all there, and most of us didn't experience actual normies in person in the real world who were reading leaks and rumors about Doctor Strange 2 to such a degree that the rumors not being true affected their enjoyment of it. If you saw people talking about it online, they probably weren't normies. If you're interacting with people who still care about Fox X-Men other than Wolverine or Deadpool, or people who still remember and care about the Cage Ghost Rider movies, that should be a hint to you that those aren't normies, they're nerds.

>>149656280
Anon they spent 73 billion on Fox ain't no way they're gonna sleep on that

>>149660057
> Then they ended up making him a one film villain after all wasting time on this and Loki

>>149664031
You do understand they didn't spend all that money just for the rights to two Marvel franchises that their own movies had already utterly mogged, don't you? They spent all that money to get Fox's entire library of properties.

>>149664065
There was no plan for this, there never was. They just made it up as they went along with some vague ideas

>>149656852
>The reason actors don't wear masks is the same reason why they gave Optimus Prime and Ultron lips; People can't relate to expresionless faces. It sucks but that's humans for you.
every single spiderman movie proves this completely wrong

>>149664448
Also Mandalorian

>>149664448
execs only trust spider-man

You can say that, but the real reason why MCU flopped so much was the fact that Feige decided to ONLY use literal whos from the street to make movies

>>149665056
They'd spent years taking characters with little or no previous exposure outside of comics, characters comic fans considered unimportant and unpopular, and turning them into beloved household names. It's not really surprising if Feige thought by the start of the 2020s he could make ANY Marvel character into a star, but the audiences didn't check out because he started pushing characters they didn't know, they'd been showing up to give characters they didn't know a shot for years just because 'the new Marvel movie' was a guaranteed good time. Until it wasn't a guaranteed good time anymore. It's the movies they did see and didn't like that led to them not giving the characters they don't know a chance anymore.

>>149665179
I was reffering to the fact that people who make the movies are literally random pajeets from the street. After MCU started flopping like crazy Feige understood that this is fucking moronic so he called Russo brothers and begged them to make Avengers

>>149665218
>I was reffering to the fact that people who make the movies are literally random pajeets from the street.
Oh, right. Sorry. I think he was also hiring writers from cartoons he was watching, and they had zero previous experience of writing movies.

>>149665295
Both MoM and Quantumania had Rick and Morty writers.

>>149664448
He gets his mask tore up constantly or just off entirely constantly in the movies though

>>149656171 (OP)
That's what happen when you choose to use Scott instead of Hank (still like Scott)

>>149665377
Honestly, it would be just as hard for Hank if not more to carry a solo because through his history in the comics, his whole identity revolves around being an Avenger, part of the problem is that his original run in Tales of Astonish is pretty bare, he doesn't have a supporting cast and is entirely alone until they introduced Wasp and they eventually got moved to be mainstays in the Avengers. His origin story is also lacking, he was one of those Silver Age characters that suffers from the "He's a hero for the sake of being a hero" and that's something he sorta always carried with him, hence the multiple times he was reinterpreted or changed identities, just writers looking to what to do with him but those same difficulties are what lead to one of the most complex characters in the Avengers' roster. tTe downside is that removing him from the Avengers takes away his multiple relationships and personal problems.

>>149665602
Honestly him meeting Wasp, losing his first wife to violent agents, shrinking himself while having to survive the insect kingdom and Hank n Janet teaming up to fight either the creature from kosmos or Egghead and creepy simp Whirlwind for an origin movie can work before delving into his compelling Avengers material. Though I'm just salty Hank and Janet missed the movie popularity boom even if their EMH versions are miles better then like 80% of the MCU's adaption of characters.

>>149665602
I'm going as a far as to say that one problem the Ant-Man movies have, is that they forced Hank Pym and Scott Lang to share space and co-exist in the same corner of the universe, something the comics never do because they are fundamentally different characters with diferent goals and they were purposely made that way. Hank is not a normal guy, he was scientist that created a magical formula and has larger than life problems as a member of a superhero team, combined with personal trauma. Scott is a normal guy with down to earth problems like paying bills and raising a kid, while just trying to be a superhero. One is the street level Ant-Man while the other, is for the lack of a better word, the "cosmic" Ant-Man.

It's just hard to balance these two extremes of the Ant-Man mythos in a single story. Think of it like this, it would be like if Peter Parker had Reed Richards as his in-law and worked full time as a member of the FF, so instead of a story with Peter doing Parker shit, you have a story of him reacting and helping solve Reed's latest problematic experiment or supervillain that came knockin, which he's not personally involved. Same deal in the movies, The Pym's problems are what cause the plot, while Scott has to react to these problems that are not related to him, other than he's involved with the people that suffer them.

>>149656416
rude

>>149666885
Kang deserves the amount of respect and glazing Dr Doom does.

>>149660373
>It took them until seeing how utterly bad Born Again was turning out that they reestructured their TV division.
I really hope that's true and ironheart was just a case of being too late into its production life for them to catch it. Because boy, going from born again right into ironheart was a double whammy of "what the hell".

>>149665801
I think you could do the creature from Kosmos the second act bad guy that gets Wasp into the action and then Egghead is the final baddie whose presence was felt during the entire film.
>Though I'm just salty Hank and Janet missed the movie popularity boom
Yeah that's fair

>>149656171 (OP)
The Marvels was a bigger flop, so much so that even Caroltranny won't defend it.

>>149660321
>Not worse than usual
I'd say She-Hulk was horrible even by the worst of MCU standards. Something like Ironheart at least had snippets of trying to be an actual superhero show, it wasn't any good at it but it was still better by the virtue of She-Hulk being legitimately unwatchable.
>>149665317
So did She-Hulk.

>>149667746
I'll be honest, Carolfag's immideate pivot to "movies are for fags anyway" was super fucking based. The only place Carol has ever been cool is in the comics, and granted that was before she was promoted to Captain but if you love Carol comics should naturally be your focus.

>>149656280
The golden age of the MCU happened during the era of the creative committee when Feige didn’t have complete control over the IP


Feige is the problem.

>>149667892
Not really, Phase 3 was the era when he got full control and that was when they began to make billions with a single movie. Phase 4/5 was when Alonzo oversaw many things with no Feige input.

>>149656626
>WandaVision gained them a lot of hype,
for women, I don't know any men who were really into Wanda vision in real life. only waifufags online.

I miss Agents of SHIELD :(
It had stellar writing, acting, and the creative freedom to do its own thing for the most part. Last good bit of writing the MCU had, except for Agatha All Along

>>149667856
This is a massive cope after you bragged about muh 1 billion dollars for years.

>>149668075
>except for Agatha All Along
Opinion discarded.

>>149667569
It wasn't that big of a stretch, both Born Again and Ironheart were fucking awful.

>>149667981
>when they began to make billions with a single movie
because of the momentum they built beforehand and there was a plan they were following a plan they had come up with before Fiege got full control

>>149668178
It was an easy plan, the Infinity Stones as a gimmick are way easier to understand and to write on the go compared to the multiverse gimmick. The real problem is more inherent to the MCU ever since the first Iron Man, they love to make up shit as they go, improv instead of plan and to fix whatever mistake there is in post. It was a model that was gonna collapse eventually, Feige or not. The committee was a cavalcade of hacks that barely made a comic worth reading and infamously got into fights with some of their more successful directors (Gunn, hated them for example). One good thing Ike did was being a cheapstake in the early days to not overspend, but with they way Disney just throws money at things this would eventually change too.

>>149659081
GOTG 3 and D&W were rare peaks in quality surrounded by mediocrity all around. They were well-received on their own but didn't really bring a sense of "Marvel is back"

>>149656171 (OP)
Doomed from the start. Kang's actor fired was the shit that made it impossible to redeem.

>>149656684
>>149656929
this does make me wonder if Gunn always planned for Vol. 3 to have Peter's story arc about losing Gamora and having to live alongside a time-displaced version of them, since that was explicitly an IW/Endgame thing. better yet, I wonder if he was happy about Gamora being killed at all.

>>149662843
>Why was Scarlet Witch the villain in the other Doctor Strange movie?
>Why was Namor the villain of a Black Panther movie?
these two aren't as surprising honestly, and Pierce being a no-name made him a great villain since it wasn't an expected storyline from the comics or anything

>>149656852
it's not just that people can't relate, it's that execs constantly think that's the case and double down on making everything expressive as fucl. you can do a lot with body language and your voice without showing you face The Mandalorian and Andrew Garfield's TASM movies are great examples of that. studio execs miss the point completely and do shit like this >>149657017 which ends up ruining characters

>>149667731
Could always have Egghead be either who gave the agents the location of Pym's wife or have him sabotage the device that led to the creature from Kosmos entering the world. Also I'm extra salty cause of Hank didn't miss the movie boom, he might've been playable in games more.

>>149668109
What didn't you like about it?

>>149668514
How about everything?
It's boring slop aimed at wine aunts who think they're "quirky" so the cancerous cringeworthy MCU "humor" is amped up to eleven. It also has barely fuck-all to do with the comics.

>>149656171 (OP)
>single-handedly
the current state of the MCU is the culmination of several fucktarded choices made over the course of two decades.

>>149656492
I think Deadpool & Wolverine is the movie people wanted/expected Multiverse of Madness to be: A giant cameo-fest with actors from previous movies. Especially given No Way Home opened the floodgates with the Spider-Men just a few months prior
>>149656626
I agree with the Wandavision part. It should be noted that MoM was the first movie that was, in a way, continuation of a Disney+ show. Dedicated fans didn't feel rewarded for watching the show because Wanda goes full-on murder mode way too quickly, and casual fans aren't as attached to Wanda's arc
So it ended up getting the worst of both worlds

>>149668879
every MCU mvoie that was a sequel to a Disney+ show ended up being hot trash, completely unrelated to the quality of the original show. MoM followed WandaVision, The Marvels followed Ms. Marvel (and also WandaVision), and Brave New World followed TFATWS. Thunderbolts is the only exception to this so far, and that's because while it folows US Agent after TFATWS it's not really a required watch

MCU was never really good. It had few snippets of gold (TWS, Netflix Daredevil, original Iron Man) but otherwise it was either mediocre or garbage.
Gunn is a hack by the way, just so we're clear here.

>>149668989
I refuse to believe you're a real Snyderfag and not just a ragebaiter, there's no way you can be THIS retarded

>>149669012
>muh snyder
Fuck off with your retarded console war, faggot. I hope both Gunn and Snyder end up in a dark alley with a bunch of melaninated gentlemen on a sweltering summer.

>>149668989
>Netflix Daredevil,
Only the first season
>It had few snippets of gold (TWS, Netflix Daredevil, original Iron Man)
nfinity war was pretty good even if Endgame sucked, Doctor Strange was pretty good, the first Antman was fun though I wouldn't quite call it gold

>>149669029
so I was only half-right, you're not a Snyderfag but you really are THAT retarded

>>149669037
>Only the first season
Fair enough.
>Doctor Strange
IMO, thought it was kinda mediocre. Also a terrible waste of Mads. Then again, MCU keeps wasting good actors and making shit villains, so that was par for the course.
>>149669049
>seething fanboy

>>149669063
>seething fanboy
whatever helps you sleep at night. I don't like the console war shit but only a Snyderfag would post "Gunn is a hack by the way" unprompted so if you're not one youre simply too mentally stunted

>>149669083
That's a lot of fanboy cope, holy fuck.

Oh and since you think it was "umprompted", let me explain the problem since you're too retarded to make a very simple connection.
>MCUtards can never shut the fuck up how "great" Guardians of the Galaxy movies are
>preemptively call Gunn out so you retarded cunts don't bother me with your corny piece of shit movies for redditors
>you still can't take a fucking hint

GOTG is a great trilogy though, fans being annoying doesn't change that

>>149668511
Egghead as the constant antagonist that causes trouble until the climax sounds like the best bet, it's actually crazy how there's no adaptation of their origin stories, not even EMH that has the best Hank and Jan gave them an origin, they are already Ant-Man and The Wasp from the get-go. But that goes to show that their origin is kinda weird, we have to stitch together multiple comics to form a coherent origin for both, it's doable but not at first glance like other superheroes. That's pretty much the reason why Edgar Wright was drawn to Scott in the first place, his origin is straightforward and makes for a good story, even EMH adapted those specific issues.

>Also I'm extra salty cause of Hank didn't miss the movie boom, he might've been playable in games more.
I would kill for an Ant-Man video game.

GOTG is the epitome of everything wrong with MCU.
Cringeworthy comedy, barely recognizable characters who neatly fall into Gunn's boxes of "le dysfunctional family", shit villains and overreliance on licensed music.
And as for "muh feels" shit, despite how much shit people give Whedon for being "insincere", the moments when he actually tries to make serious scenes his feel a lot more sincere than Gunn's. Serious parts of Buffy and Angel blow Gunn's anything out of the water. Gunn's just feel cheap and very obviously emotionally manipulative.

ah yes my favorite MCU properties, Buffy and Angel.

>>149656461
Kang was the worst part of Loki though. Just a stereotype of a zesty gay man.

>retarded Gunnfag tries to be sarcastic failing to comprehend the entire body of work of both directors is being compared
Many such cases. Let me make things simple for you. Gunn is a terrible hack. All of his movies, not just MCU capetrash are shit and the closest he's ever come to being entertaining is those edgy baby rape joke tweets. Which doesn't mean they were funny or anything, just better than his shit movies which is an extremely low bar.
I'm at the very least glad people are slowly waking up to that and realize that Gunn is a shitty one trick pony with the lukewarm reception to Creature Commandos.

>>149668989
>>149669029
>>149669153
>>149669236
>>149669299
lmao youre not fooling anyone, do not redeem Man of Steel 2 saar

>>149667892
The creative committee were the retards who'd spent the previous 10-15 years ruining Marvel Comics. While the backlash against what the MCU has become is understandable, people yearning for the creative committee don't seem to understand who those people were.

>>149668732
>genre's rich history of creativity and diversity
When??

>>149668033
If women and waifufags loved it, that's two groups of people they weren't reaching so much until then, and then they immediately chased them away afterwards. And that's why there are now angry Wanda waifufags who just want to watch the whole MCU burn down and Feige lose his job.

>>149668461
Namor starting as an antihero who fights a lot of other heroes early on could have worked like in the comics, if they'd handled it in a way that actually clicked with audiences, but they changed him too much just to avoid comparisons with Aquaman.
Turning Wanda into a villain at the peak of her popularity was a retarded decision but one Feige was planning to do from the moment she was introduced, because it was her only comic story he knew, and nobody could tell him it wasn't going to go over well with the average fan, only with people who knew comics but weren't Avengers fans, so also only knew that one story.

As for Pierce, the idea of him being some surprise twist villain was undermined by him being presented as an obvious bad guy immediately in the movie, and there's no reason for him to be named after a comic character he has nothing to do with. When the MCU is basically creating an OC, they may as well own it and give them a new name, not the same name as a completely unrelated comic character.

>>149667856
I thought the Carolfag group consensus was to blame The Marvels' failure on Kamala and Monica, that they were just so unpopular that even the supposed millions of Carol fans worldwide couldn't bring themselves to support that movie.

>>149669325
>muh snyder again
And good. Man of Shit can rot. I want a good Superman movie. Not Gunn's reddit crap nor edgy trash by a hack too stupid to understand Watchmen.

>>149668033
>my niche exclusive group of chuds didn't care for it so it must be unpopular

>>149669566
Kamala and her actress are some of the best things to happen to the MCU post-Endgame, and /co/ Carolfags are too insecure to admit that their waifu who was pushed as the next big thing failed to surpass Ms. Marvel in quality and popularity. shame about Brie Larson too since she seemed chill but Marvel really dropped the ball there

>>149660505
MCU continuing to botch adaptions of their interesting characters? Say it isn't so.

>MODOK being anything but a joke of a character ever

>>149667569
Iron Heart was shot before the overhaul, and they kept it shelved for like thre yeas before being released.

>>149668432
He reportedly wanted to have Gamora being the one to die instead of Yondu at the end of Vol.2, but he got vetoed due to them having plans for Gamora in IW.

>>149656171 (OP)
>give 3 (THREE) movies to Peyton Reed
What the actual goddamn FUCK was Feige thinking. Not even going into the fact that he recast the qt from Endgame that played Scott's daughter

>>149664448
>>149656852
Darth Vader proves this wrong

>>149669719
The mediocre square Enix game used him better then the MCU, that's fucking embarrassing

>>149669215
An Ant Man game would be rad cause you could have tiny platformer adventure sequences and giant scale fights with classic marvel monsters that could play like Robot Alchemic Drive or Godzilla Save the Earth. Plus could have a gradual buildup to Ultron's descent culminating in him as the Final boss plus could have a major gameplay shift when Hank becomes Yellowjacket to suit his more aggressive persona and mental state. Though the biggest thing it can do is show his character nuance, likability yet also his compelling flaws and just showcase why he's such an enduring character.

>>149656852
No they keep taking the helmets off because actors get pissy about having their faces be on camera, it's why pascal wasn't even in mando season 3. Just a couple hours recording audio and let his stuntman do the acting

>>149662843
hollywood has interest in adaptations, only writing their own stories using other people's works as placeholder names

>>149662982
>It was obvious that Yelena was a super soldier
lmao no

>>149667892
unironically true, MCU only began declining when Feige amassed more power and appointed a bunch of yes-men around him always

>>149669814
oof that's a bit harsh, I think Yondu's death was the right decision even ignoring IW synergy. would Gunn's original Vol. 3 plans still have a time-displaced Gamora at all, or would it be exclusively about Rocket?

>>149670560
As far as we know, Gunn toyed with having the third film have the Guardians fight Annihilus, and crafted a draft for a separate film centered on Rocket and Groot's origin before deciding to scrap the former and use the latter as the backbone for the script. Even with the Gamora plot, it seems like Rocket's story was always going to be front and centre.

>>149670547
By all accounts the Creative Committee had zero power and mostly functioned as a centralized resource for lore. And by all accounts its members just used the Committee to push their royalty-generating additions, swipe concepts from drafts and spec scripts to put in comics to claim royalties, and push their own scripts and production companies.

Sometimes the smallest organisms are the most deadly or deadliest, whatever you prefer.

>>149670626
True

>>149670547
Retards who are blinded by their hate for Loeb, Ike, and the rest of them don't seen to understand that they were the only forced holding Feige in check. Very few people flourish in an environment where they're surrounded by sycophants.
>>149669467
Regardless of how you feel about their impact on the comics, they were a net benefit to the MCU side, both Marvel TV and the movies, and having someone around to tell Feige "no" was good for the overall products.

I understand precisely what and who they were and I want them back. I want actual show runners who are actually experienced and interested in rewriting a TV shows, not just 6 hour movies. Also - Feige canned the concept of a showrunner in the D+ mini series to solidify his control over that process, again Feige and his uncontested power is the problem

>>149671543
>Loeb
>Ike
>Feige
Or all of them are cancer and different facets of the same problem. Namely shitty adaptations.
I'm tired of retards pretending Netflixslop was any good either. You have Daredevil because that had somebody actually talented behind it (AKA DeKnight) making it watchable against all odds and that's about it. And even then it wasn't problem-free.
I'm glad those faggots got canned and I wish Feige got canned too. Give me people with talent not these hacks.

>>149671728
Daredevil and Jessica Jones season 1 was neat
Agents of SHIELD had the best writing the MCU's ever had, including the movies. Sure it had Ls too but the era when Feige didn't have complete creative control had a lot more hits than misses

>Give me people with talent not these hacks.

Any specific names in mind?

>>149671796
>Jessica Jones season 1 was neat
I'm so fucking tired of this retarded meme. Jessica Jones was pure garbage and watching it was the exact moment I realized that Daredevil was a fluke and Netflix is not gonna be MCU's saviour.

>>149669862
The first one made money and it was a miracle it was even watchable after Edgar Wright left, the second one made even more money, not a billion but $600M is nothing to scoff at, especially when the budget for that was really low, like $100M. They thought that the change from low-stakes caper films into a big event would bring more money, and they also threw at lot of money into it. For real Quantumania is one of the most expensive movies in the MCU, only Endgame, AoU and DS2 cost more.

>>149670617
>it seems like Rocket's story was always going to be front and centre
during a recent interview as part of Superman's press tour he mentions how he formed the basis for the first film around an idea for Rocket first, about how a talking raccoon would be the saddest creature on the planet and used that to lay seeds for his character arc early in the first film itself

>>149671817
oh so you're another one of those "everything about Bendis is bad reeeee" faggots

>>149671878
Second one only made money because it was right after Infinity War and Marvel had all but confirmed that something about this movie would directly tie into Endgame. Same thing happened with the first Captain Marvel film, people only watched that because the MCU was at an all-time peak and people thought it had important context for Endgame

>>149671928
>muh Bendis
Nobody even brought him up but you, you worthless fucking retard.
The show was awful in every way but makes sense a subhuman like yourself would enjoy it.
>Jessica Jones fanboys are always retarded subhumans
Many such cases.

>>149656852
tokusatsu it's a thing, you know

>>149671976
every faggot on /co/ who screeches about Jessica Jones to this extent is always a faggot constantly fixated on hating Bendis, and you're no different

>>149672024
Yeah yeah, you want to suck his dick. Shut the fuck up.
>NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST THINK A BAD SHOW IS BAD, LET ME PROJECT MUH BENDIS OBSESSION ONTO YOU
Absolute fucking moron. No wonder you enjoy that trash.

>>149671940
Second movie had decent legs from what I remember, Quantumania had a stronger opening but fell off hard. I think it did good as it did with being just a passable sequel to the first one with no connection to the Avengers next movie other than the post-credits, during peak Marvel hype. Everyone knew it by opening weekend but in spite of that it kept making decent money.

>he's still malding about it
no attempt at denying what was said then

I'm entirely convinced anybody praising Jessica Jones has never once seen anything that isn't kiddy capeshit and was impressed with how "dark and mature" (lolmao) it was.
Because I cannot comprehend how anybody could say that trash is any good even slightly.
>CW-tier visuals
>even worse action scenes ("n-not an action show", shut the fuck up. Something not being an action show doesn't work as an excuse when you have action scenes almost every episode and they're all dogshit. Especially when actual non-action shows delivered better fight scenes than that.)
>awful unthreatening villain who feels more like a bad joke
>idiotic writing on the level of a very bad slasher movie
>"b-b-buh muh Lifetime channel-tier themes, it's so dark mom. I'm watching an actual mature show for adults such as myself"
It's embarrassing. At least critics I can understand praising this shit, both for Marvel money and political posturing. Fanboys baffle me.

>>149672083
nah second movie was inferior to the first, Walton Goggins was the only good thing about it. first movie had a lot more charm and felt newer, but ultimately both of them worked because they were fun heist films with quirky characters like Luis and the gang. Getting rid of all that for a boring plot made it all worse, not to mention the new actress for Cassie just couldn't fucking act if her life depended on it

>still going with "his" gay projections because "he" knows he can't defend his awful show
Seriously, why are all Jessica Jones fanboys defensive idiots? Your show was trash, get over it.

>>149671817
>>149671976
>>149672048
>>149672096
>>149672109
this is such a funny mental breakdown I can't fathom someone crashing out this much over a fucking Netflix show holy shit

>>149672148
>can't defend his point and devolves into retarded projections
>U-UR MAD C-CRASH OUT
Always the exact same dishonest rat tactics, almost as if you're not smart enough to actually argue your points. Which is why you're here defending this slop, lmao.

>>149672166
I just joined this thread lil timmy but it's funny seeing you combust so I won't interrupt you, carry on my wayward son

>>149672108
>nah second movie was inferior to the first,
Yeah I agree with that, I mean passable in a sense that it was similar but slightly worse with less charm than the last but not to the point that it was a trainwreck like Quantumania, it was watchable. QM just tried to be huge like other Marvel movies but in doing so they lost their identity and unique flair. The Cassie situation was really bad all around, making her grow up with a time skip is questionable, but then they recast her actress again and this new version is poorly acted and not endearing at all, it feels like she's just a brand new character with no connection to the previous version of her.

>>149672216
>that cringeworthy redditor manner of speaking
>"I'm totally not the same faggot"
Let me guess how many funkos you own, faggot.
Also go the fuck back.

>>149656280
You are not wrong, but I do think Quantumania was what broke the camel's back. It opened higher than the previous Ant Man movies and then collapsed.

>Jessica Jones was... le good?

>>149671940
>Same thing happened with the first Captain Marvel film, people only watched that because the MCU was at an all-time peak and people thought it had important context for Endgame
It's worse. Feige was parading Captain Marvel around and screaming that it's essential for Endgame. He pretty much conned a substantial amount of people into helping inflate the BO numbers for that movie.

>>149672109
what's with the parentheses? just because I called you a filthy Bendisfag now all of a sudden youre gonna call me a tranny? such a low-hanging fruit considering you're all about muh "retarded subhumans have poor taste"

>fanboy still seething
I don't give a fuck about Bendis, so you can stop projecting your weird gay obsessions with the bald cunt onto me.

could you motherfuckers stop falling for the ragebait about Jessica Jones for one momen, jesus it's like this place is full of dumb zoomies who can't spot even the simplest bait

>next you'll say "kys samefag"

>>149672415
>anything I disagree with is bait
Maybe if you could argue like an adult and not a child upset your toy got insulted, this conversation would've been more fruitful.
Then again the fact that you think calling Jessica Jones a shitty show is "ragebait" tells me all I need to know about how dumb you are.

you said "kys samefag" in all but those exact words so I'll count that as a successful attempt, seriously if you don't realize that guy is just posting bait to fuck with you then I can't help you

>can't argue for shit
>I-I WAS ONLY PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED
>weebtard to boot
Boring.

>>149656626
I pretty much forgot the second Antman movie existed prior to the release of Quantimania. >>149656663
That’s just as likely to be the stufio wanting to get what the paid for. Iirc, Stalone wanted to wear the Dredd helmet for most of the movie, but the studio wasn’t into it.

>>149672641
yeah but I assume Gunn would've shown off the classic Star-Lord helmet as a homage for a scene or two but after IW/Endgame he made sure to not have it appear at all as payback

>thread dies because of some schizo malding about Jessica Jones
god fucking dammit why can't we ever have intelligent discussion on this board for once without being derailed by faggots like you lot

>>149672641
The second one was kinda filler, most important thing is they get Janet and that happens until the end of the movie. Quantumania was fucked because it takes until the third movie to establish the relationship of the cast and it barely does it, everyone is in their own corner. For example, it's the first time Cassie and Hank share screen together and they are already talking like he's her grandpa for one scene, the family dynamic was botched here.

I genuinely think people underestimate how bad Quantumania was because of Cassie, people say Kang or MODOK all the time but for people who actually watched the film it's consistently Cassie who they consider the worst character, Kathryn Newton is incapable of making different expressions let alone play a superhero character

>>149656171 (OP)
Eternals was worse and didnt kill it.

>>149661898
Scott being the mentor for young avengers would be fun hopefully they dont shit on him the entire time like in QM

>>149673212
The one upside of Kathryn Newton was that she's pretty

>>149673448
meh not really, those teeth are weird. I prefer the Endgame actress

>>149673097
>antagonize somebody immediately bringing the discussion level down to the kindergarten level
>act surprised when they retaliate
>"s-s-schizo, u-ur m-m-malding"
Kill yourself, piece of subhuman garbage. You are the exact reason why you "can't have intelligent discussion" that and you being legitimately retarded.
Not that this shitty Ant-Man deserves one or anything else beyond being forgotten.

>>149673488
Just bring back old Cassie and call it a day

Back ontopic from the seething of a fanboy retard, the idea of "creative committee" being "a net positive" is just hilariously retarded. They had garbage ideas and needed to be tard-wrangled as much as Feige themselves did. Gunn was perfectly justified in telling them to fuck off.
"Actual showrunners and writers" Loeb and Perlmutter had were gutter trash that worked on slop for middle-aged women with zero taste (come to think of it, that IS Jessica Jones' perfect audience) like Dexter and NCIS. And those were usually the ones who weren't complete nobodies with terrible credentials. DeKnight had Spartacus under his belt which blew everybody else's slop out of the water and which is why Daredevil was the only good Netflix show. Even then that wasn't entirely flawless, just ahead of the curve (not that it's much of an accomplishment considering how bad all those shows were). One other exception was Lightfoot who worked on Narcos but I have no idea what happened there and why his Punisher was so fucking shit. It may just be one of the worst adaptations of anything ever.

>>149674035
Simple fix would be to hire good writers

>>149674887
Good writers are usually expensive, though.
I wasn't particularly satisfied with Marvel's shows and I'd like to have better ones than Netflix and definitely better ones than Disney+, but I don't think that, I dunno, Sopranos writers would want to write capeshit.

People really overrate the MCU's ability to prop up unknowns.
Iron Man was still a major comic character who even headlined a recent event comic.

>>149670308
This is still the most gay shit actors do, your an adult pretender I don't need to fucking see you to know your the one in the mask fucking retarded

>have I killed you before?

And then he jobs to fucking antman

>>149675627
Kang jobbing to Ant-Man was the pitch of the movie. It's not even subtle, Kang starts to have a meltdown about how many Avengers he's killed and all they do is talk to ants, to then get fucked by an army of giant ants.

>>149675770
This is like if black widow pistol whipped Thanos and it caused him to fall and break his neck

>>149674035
To me the Netflix adaptations I saw are compromised by being made at the height of the "every season is one story" absurdity that Netflix unleashed.

Jessica Jones in particular, the whole point of the original comic was to have her go out and solve short cases while we slowly learned more about her past and her trauma from the Purple Man. But just in general, the shows had little variety and a lot of redundancy because you couldn't go in and pitch: "X fights Y" as an episode idea.

>>149656492
Ant Man movies always were the bottom feeders on the MCU but people dismissed that arguing that they are just little cooldowns for the main events. Turned out that people really don't care about Scott and Ant-Man that much.

>>149669662
These movies do best with men, yes.

>>149675798
Not comparable, Ant-Man and by extension the entire Ant-Senpai are op as fuck because they operate with bullshit science that are the Pym Particles. Legit not many characters have a counter for them in the MCU or getting shrunk out of existance. They just have no aura and their movies are low-stakes so people think are weak. If there's one team of people capable of getting a win from a weak Kang, is them because they are pretty much diet Fantastic Four.

>>149675851
IMO, I think Purple Man was lacking as a Big Bad.
He never felt like a threat. He wasn't too smart or too intimidating. They caught him like 4 times only for him to escape not due to his high-OQ machinations, but other characters' stupidity or plot conveniences.
He also was way too childish, crossing the line from "creepy pathetic" to just "plain pathetic".
And for a supposed petty sadist with a temper, his methods of dealing with people were very milquetoast. One would expect some horror-tier shit, not just gore but downright intentional psychological torment for petty slights. But he just settled on the most basic uses of his powers possible.

>>149669719
MODOK Head Games has an actually compelling non-comedic take on MODOK that still allows him to have comic relief moments while maintaining the tragic aspects of his character.

>>149659277
It's retarded that they are going down that route. They used to hire people because they wouldn't require too much screen time. Now the movies themselves automatically makes you an A-lister and has to put your face out there as much as possible.

No one who is a fan of Antman is watching it because they want to see Paul Rudds face.

>>149661898
Antman is probably one of the first people who Sam is picking for his team. Seems more like Star-Lord and Vision will be baby sitters for YA.

>>149662843
They wanted to flesh out Kang before Avengers. The reason he was given to Antman was because he was going to be the big bad that Scott beats like he did Doom in the comics.

>>149663228
Not really. He drowned them during AvX while possessed by the Phoenix. Their beef spawned from that afaik

>>149669719
MODOK was a serious character in the comics for decades, but most adaptations seem to treat him as a joke. But even the 90s Iron Man cartoon, which was the first adaptation to use him, gave him a spotlight episode that portrayed him more seriously, and leaned into the body horror aspects of his comic origin, and made it more tragic by giving him a normal life he'd lost.

We've had several different attempts at adapting MODOK that just treat him as a stupid comedy character and it's never worked, there's no reason for anyone to still be insisting that's what he's meant to be.

>>149673277
It came out during a time the franchise was still well liked, and had NWH come immediately after.

>>149656469
>>149656579
No one gave a shit about Black Widow or Shang Chi or all the shows.

>>149670625
This is correct, but unfortunately the idea that the Committee was the one thing holding Feige back from going full woketard is an idea that's really taken root amongst the culture warriors, and no matter how many times you try to tell them who the people on the Committee were and how worthless they were, and no matter how many times you tell them the Committee had no actual power, they won't listen, and keep making arguments like >>149671543

I can completely understand arguments for wanting Ike back, he actually WAS holding Feige in check and actually DID have the power to say "no" to him, but the Committee couldn't do either of those things, and from the things we know they suggested, and the things we know they objected to, we know they weren't providing any benefit at all. Just say you want Ike back, there's an actual sensible argument to be made there. The Committee had no real power, and was full of idiots with terrible ideas and opinions.

If the MCU had started in an earlier time, and there'd been a Committee made up of Marvel editors and writers from the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s, it really could have been a good thing and been beneficial to the movies. But by the time the MCU started there was nobody left at Marvel who could have been of any possible value to them at all, and it's possibly a legacy of the Committee promoting their own work that once it was done with origin stories, the MCU constantly draws from modern era storylines and characters, as if there's no pre-Quesada source material worth adapting.

>>149671940
>>149672083
>>149672108
>>149672223
Ant-Man 2 wasn't as good as the first movie, but did well due to a combination of goodwill towards the first movie, and the MCU being so popular at the time that any new MCU movie would do well.

When you factor in that international release of Ant-Man 2 was delayed in a lot of countries so it wouldn't overlap with another big Disney release, and spoilers were online for weeks, it still managed to do pretty well internationally.

>>149673989
She must be at the right age to play a Young Avenger

>>149677168
IF Young Avengers ever comes out (not likely at this point), half the actors would be well into adulthood given how much it's been delayed.

Movie sucked but the PS2 game was good

>>149677280
Man, Marvel can't plan for shit

>>149656171 (OP)
No, that wasn't it. This one-two punch is what demolished general audiences' faith in the MCU. Quantumania was already doomed, the fact that it was actually terrible was just the burial.

>>149660476
>Deadpool Wolverine requires you to watch 2 seasons of Loki or else nothing makes any fucking sense at all, just....zero sense of any kind.
>Quantumania requires you to watch Loki just to know who the fucking villain is or what his deal is.
Most retarded post in the thread.

>>149656567
Yes, MoM was when the switch flipped. But GoTG2 started the "something is off but i cant point what" for regular people.

I think the problem is that Whedonesque quip punch quip overstayed its welcome. Everyone was tired already of it by Age of Ultron. But there were unrelated events that extended artificially its life. Spider-man coming to the mcu, avengers double movie IW+EG, Toby McGuire, GoTG refined a bit the whedonesque humor, and Ragnarok being a success made everyone not notice that quipshit is dead.

Now they only have the nostalgia xmen to extend the life of quipshit 1 more movie and then the xmen reboot will be shit.

Fantastic Four is weird because its more of a traditional movie than quipshit, but terrible casting choices and decisions killed the movie.

>>149678652
MoM had at least some good cinematography and Scarlet Witch was creepy in a few scenes.

its plot is total dogshit but it had the brief flashings of good shit in it.

Thor Love and Thunder is one of my most hated movies of all time.

I loved Gorr the Godslayer story in the comics, so you can imagine I was hype to see Bale play him, and then.. well this fucking movie happened, one of the worst movies ever, and an awful adaptation of a great story, given to a joke director.

that story was a straight up Horror Murder Mystery, and should never have been given to that clown.

>>149678652
>Thor wears the cloths on this cover for all of 2 minutes before putting on his armor again.

just such a bad movie, wasting 10 minutes on his dumb GoTG gags really set the tone.

>>149678652
Marvel is beyond washed

>>149673535
holy shit kill yourself you fucking jewtard stop thinking everybody making fun of your meltdowns is the same guy

>>149676555
I wonder if the Committee made up by actually good writers and not those stupid hacks could've worked, though. I dunno maybe somebody like Peter David (RIP), JMS, won't call Paul Jenkins good because I don't like a lot of shit he wrote but he was like a major reason Thunderbolts didn't suck as much as it could have, etc

>>149680755
Get cancer already, worthless retard.

>>149673212
Really sucks for Cassie's character because this was supposed to be her origin story but it was badly done. It sucked how Scott died in the comics but at least that gave Cassie a compelling reason to want to step up as a hero, here it's not that compelling due to how unlikeable they made her for no good reason. What sucks is that there was room to explore this, because the MCU sorta did Scott's death with the Endgame timeskip, so it's likely she went through a similar development, but that's not explored much because it was off-screen.

Multiverse of Madness starting the Witches curse did more damage

it killed the shipping focused women from coming as their investment in Wanda and her family was burned off

>>149676555
Perlmutter allowing a Black Panther and a Black widow movie earlier probably would have helped and black panther would have a finished trilogy by now and maybe a not dead actor

also if he had no inhumans autism

>>149665179
They should have focused on finishing out trilogies for a recast black panther, dr strange and captain marvel, no eternals, no black widow/ thunderbolts, two part avengers movies first focused on a kree attack on earth, second a secret invasion skrull movie.

>>149656171 (OP)
it was actually this

>>149661715
The illuminati should have been the villians and it should have just been a ripoff of justice league crisis on two earths with them as the evil justice league stand in

>>149659231
If it was a great movie it would have made a billion and like 300 million dollars
but we got a dogshit movie with batman v superman level drops after the spiderman hype

>>149659231
>>149682456
yeah the disappointment about MoM quickly got around and it ended up not making as much money as they would've hoped, despite all the marketing and hype beforehand. It's the exact same thing happening with the F4 film now, word spread around that the movie was just plain average, and that's why it's struggling against Superman (which had great word-of-mouth and better reviews in general)

>>149668416
going out of their way to show that every single version of kang was jonathan majors before that happened was perfect.

>>149684098
How do you fuck up this hard?!?!?!?!
You could've had completely different people playing versions of himself

>>149659187
I never really hated her in The Marvels, like the whole thing was a shitshow but she was fine

>>149656461
>they really liked Majors' acting while they were shooting Loki
His acting was awful though, he drew everything out like a bad parody of Shatner.

>>149682196
Why does Marvel hate Wanda so much anyway

>>149684320
Because everfything autistic pedophiles like Byrne and retarded faggots like Bendis do is seen as godsend by those retards.

>>149684320
Hank Pym fans and Wanda fans could become friends in how fucked over both their faves get.

>>149684098
I don't know why they made Kang black when his whole thing is being a conquerer from the future that is going back in time to defeat what he sees as a great challenge but ultimately primitive neanderthals compared to him.

>>149684320
>>149684430
2000s and their consequences...
People call 90s a "dork age", but 2000s feel a lot more like it.

>>149684448
This movie would have been better if it was a time travel adventure across different eras

>>149684488
There's like some small minute good spots story wise such as Annihilation or Planet Hulk but as a whole the 2000's was a blight for so many characters and the setting.

>>149684511
I feel they should've saved Kang for an actual Avengers movie or let him be successful ultimately on topics of who should've acted him aside but making it a fun time travel adventure and having some dramatic moments like Kang offering Scott no strings attached to let him not lose his marriage or get the time he missed with his daughter physically alternatively Kang could try coercing Hank with the offer to make sure Janet never gets stuck in the quantum realm. Time setting wise having them go to when Hank and Janet were younger heroes to team up with their older counterparts, perhaps go to prehistoric time with ancient insects to communicate with for battle or Kang taking them to different warring periods while he goes on about conquest as human nature and why he is the culmination of the human race and that smug bad guy goodness.

>>149677748
Only people in the know know that Future Fight is the best marvel mobile game cause it gave us this

>>149656280
after endgame they should have just made a bunch of movies about what the people that were alive were doing during those 5 years. They didn't have to resume to current day stories they could have just got everyone up to speed. Now there's just 5 mcu years that we will never see other than in quick flashbacks when we could have had full stories.

>>149670308
Always respect that guy from Dredd who flat refused to ever take his helmet off during the movie.

>>149682228
The inhumans series was sabotaged by Feige every step of the way. The inhumans storyline in AoS was really good, though

>>149684219
I honestly don't think any of the three leads were to play for the Marvels bombing, it was just the worst choice of film to release at such a down period for the franchise that it was basically DOA regardless of quality

>>149684626
>Kang offering Scott no strings attached to let him not lose his marriage or get the time he missed with his daughter
I hate how this was in the trailer but not in the movie

>>149684626
If they could redo it plan for an avengers get back together cause of Kang movie, then resolve the Kree Skrull conflict in a two parter for the next avengers movies no secret invasion show, and then call the multiverse cameo fest two parter a Marvel united or something instead of avengers movies since the Fantastic for and X men are in it.

>>149660476
>who the fuck evil Elaine is
got a chuckle out of me

>>149660476
your sentiment is right but half your examples don't hold true

they should have done an avengers movie to present the new team

>>149689605
They got the wrong idea that the Avengers films should be these gigantic multi team crossovers, instead of movies about the proper team. Secret Invasion should've closed Phase 4, establishing the new team that people would follow through the saga.

>>149660816
>Also, Sam Raimi’s campy aesthetics were surprisingly controversial for how much people glaze his Spider-Man movies.

This was the biggest complaint I remember seeing back when it was released, which is a shame imo because the campiness was my favorite aspect of MoM. If anything I wish Raimi had been allowed even more freedom, it felt restrained.

>>149689712
Either Secret Invasion or something with the Masters of Evil that are formed thanks to the world being in disarray after the events of Endgame, with the Avengers disbanded and the un-snapped population being brought back causing problems. But Marvel was afraid of another Age of Ultron.

>>149689712
Someday it will be acceptable again to say nice things about Joss Whedon (possibly after we see the Buffy reboot without him) but for all the flaws of Avengers: Age of Ultron it’s an actual Avengers movie that treats them like a real team where members come and go, villain henchman change sides and join them, they hang out and date each other and have scenes that are about hanging out with each other.

It’s the first and last Avengers movie that is recognizably like an Avengers comic run and not an event.

>>149690854
Buffy was always shit, it can't possibly get any worse.
You're gonna need to make a shitty Firefly remake to achieve what you want.

>>149690700
I honestly think they should've either had Skull return from his exile somehow or have another Zola backup show up so that they can start gathering up the Masters of Evil/whatever other name you wanna use for them. Hell, you could even still keep the idea of finally using The Leader in something.

>>149676467
It was always weird to me how the 90s Iron Man show made him hobbit sized. And took away any ability he had, he was just the little groveling sidekick to Mandarin instead of the supergenius that can build giant robots.

>>149678909
Explain. How is anyone supposed to know what a TVA is or why the fuck people are time traveling or what the weird big open field junkyard universe is going by what was said in that one specific movie alone.

>>149660476
You're full of shit and your argument is 100% built on whining about how autistic you are

>>149691343
Kill yourself

>>149678652
Well, these two then followed up with Eternals, Marvels, and then Secret Invasion and Hawkeye on Disney+ just informed audiences that MCU was fucking dead.

>>149691343
"Multiverse police" and their dumping ground aren't hard concept to grasp and are clearly explained in the movie.

>>149691343
>Autistic screeching!!!!
You seem to be a tad busy at the moment...

>>149691401
Hawkeye was well-received, though. And Eternals, at least from my experience as a teacher, was mainly regarded as boring and inessential rather than awful.

Love and Thunder was the moment the MCU stopped being "cool" and became cheesy and for kids in the eyes of the teenagers I worked with. Wakanda Forever and Deadpool & Wolverine being the exceptions.

>>149691417
Okay, why didn't they explain it? If it was so easy

>>149691460
>More autistic screeching
Naah, imma wait for you to tucker yourself out

>>149656852
Oh yeah and kids don't want to watch cartoons unless it stars other kids, thanks for the great baseless feedback Q5.

>>149687662
It's genuinely a moment ripe for great characterisation for both since it shows Kang is devious but also will genuinely reward those who work with or for him which could add the sense of bizarre honour Kang has despite his vicious conquest and it lets Scott show how he's grown by refusing what seems like a to good to be true offer by not getting hung up on the past or selfishly putting himself before others. Could even have it be a gambit by Kang to divide Cassie on him since you could hint at the Iron Lad stuff by having him show a genuine but oddly creepy fondness for her.

>>149688105
Again it's not even funny how much better EMH my beloved did both the Skrull and Kree storylines. It'd been easy to do a film on the concept even with the MCU's more sympathetic portrayal of the Skrulls since it could be them getting desperate or you could even have Kl'rt as a highly antagonistic but well intentioned person who becomes Super Skrull to even the odds against the sheer force of the Kree. Maybe even play up how people on earth want the Avengers to focus on helping their problems instead of aliens and just play up the ramifications of the Skrulls existing in a world where humanity has seen only the worst of alien contact so far.

>>149656171 (OP)
Marvel really put this in theaters.

>>149692880
Nigga spawns out of nowhere

>>149672223
NuCassie felt like a Poochy situation. She was terrible.

I liked AM&W. MCU's failing post-endgame was no longer making movies that were "genre + capes" and instead being full capeshit. Examples of pre-Endgame were Winter Soldier as political thriller, Ant Man as a heist film, GotG as full scifi. Now they're all capeshit first and actual good film second or never.

>>149656469
>Multiverse of Madness
I sincerely don't understand how someone could make something so godawful with all the resources in the world.

Then again, I walked into a showing for Rise of Skywalker.

>>149656845
Rotate your crops or the soil dries up and nothing will grow retard

>>149692934
Original director walking out + Raimi and Waldron reworking the film in little time + Not delaying production

Greed. That's all.

It truly saddens me Thunderbolts flopped and will never get a sequel. It was easily the best thing Marvel has made since Infinity War. That's what they get for almost a half decade of garbage, I guess.

>>149693178
At least they gave X-Men to Thunderbolts' director so there's that

>>149656579

It's the truth you retard. MCU NEEDED TO END WITH ENDGAME. IT NEEDED TO GO AWAY. All the evidence is clear and only retarded addicts like you want more or even tolerate the possibility of more Marvel movies. Every single sane person wants Marvel movies to go away for 20 years at least, preferably 50 years. The fact that they continue to come out is insulting.

>>149679336
>and Scarlet Witch was creepy in a few scenes.
That they did this at the height of her popularity was a retarded idea, anon. They actually had a popular female character audiences liked, and they did this?

>>149693529
Aw come on. They still had some popular movies and WandaVision proved they could build a show around Avengers B-listers and people would eat it up.

Endgame wasn’t the end of anything except maybe Iron Man as the flagship character. It wasn’t a logical endpoint to the story because the MCU never had a real overarching story, it was all fake like it is in comics.

If some of the recent bad movies had been good then they would have been able to launch new franchises, like Captain Marvel doing big numbers even though nobody honestly liked it.

Instead they screwed up so bad with their established pre-2020 franchises that they killed the whole thing. But wouldn’t this be different if Doctor Strange, Thor and Ant-Man had had movies that didn’t suck?

>>149681867
It's not just something that would need "good writers", the writers and editors involved would have needed to be old school Marvel company men who'd been there for decades, people who knew and cared about all the history, continuity and characterization, and could give advice and guidance to the people working on the movies, while hopefully not being too autistic to understand that sometimes movies will need to change or simplify things.

By the time of the MCU, most of those company men had been purged from Marvel by Quesada. Brevoort was one of the only pre-Quesada editors left, and most of the writers who'd been around since before the 2000s were gradually getting demoted onto lower tier books if they were kept around at all. There weren't many people left who would've been able to give good advice. Instead you had the Committee doing things like trying to get Gunn to copy Bendis' GOTG run because Bendis was on the Committee, and them fighting against ideas like Starlord's mixtape.

>>149659231
>>149682456
>>149683903
remember that disney lied about the budget of MoM actually going over budget with $414.9 million, fucking crazy number

>>149684448
I think they just cast a guy who Hollywood had picked to be The Next Big Thing, and it backfired on them really badly.

>>149691253
This is even stranger when they gave him a toy that was a lot bigger.

>>149693678
Still waiting for the real budget of BNW to be revealed

>>149693635
Anon, you can't reason with autismo. Endgame had "end" in the title, so he can't cope with the MCU continuing after it. If he was alive in the 1980s, it would have been a movie series like Friday the 13th that mindbroke him instead for continuing after an instalment with "Final" in the title.

It's insane that these people keep denying that there was any hype or excitement for the MCU at all after that one movie, like they weren't actually in communication with other human beings at all.

>>149686474
Feige sabotaged plans for the Inhumans to have a movie at the end of Phase 3, just because it was a thing Ike wanted to do. The Inhumans show having a low budget, and a showrunner with a history of failures is all down to Ike himself, unfortunately.

>>149656280
>>149656171 (OP)
You forgot Thor Love and Thunder.

Wait!
Did people like Wakanda Forever?

>>149693926
It was mostly well recieved yeah

Isn't it funny watching the cape movie industry retreading the comic industry's exact step
>Highly success movies
>Refused to end
>Multiverse everywhere
>Time travel everywhere
>Reset and retcon everywhere
>Random literally who jumped in the middle of the movie ( please watch Sexual Spitter Mong #67892136912638 to understand who this character is)
>Random faggot out of nowhere jumped in and claim the name of beloved well established character

I guess execs don't learn

The moment you introduce time travel or multiverse shit into your story is the time you have to bail out. The fact that they introduced time travel AND multiverse shit in a succession means that it was double fucked.

>>149684320
>>149684402
Wanda married The Vision, an android, and they had a family because of her magic powers. John Byrne hated this, and had an autistic hateboner for Vision in general, and just wrecked Wanda as a side effect of destroying Vision and the kids. Most other people at Marvel afterwards seemed to agree with Byrne or just not care about Wanda or Vision enough to want to fix things, and the few writers that did care never stayed long enough to do it, but nobody really seemed to specifically hate Wanda back then,

It's Bendis and House of M that are to blame for people hating Wanda. It was the first time she had a big role in something outside of Avengers, and that big role is being a plot device who de-powers 99% of the mutants (early 2000s comics had suddenly increased the number of mutants from a few thousand to millions of them everywhere, and Marvel editorial wanted to roll things back). The books kept portraying this as genocide and a hate crime, and though the story intends to portray Wanda as a tragic figure whose powers had driven her insane, the fan narrative became that she was just an evil psychopath who could never be redeemed. The absolute state of the people employed by Marvel meant they had writers and editors who were blaming the character for the thing their own writers and editors had her do, and holding a grudge against her for it.

And then we got people projecting their grudge against comic Wanda onto the MCU version, and Marvel refusing to do anything with Wanda when she started getting popular in the MCU, then WandaVision being the first MCU thing where there was no synergy comic, then her next appearance was getting killed in an X-Men story. Even though she came back quickly, it was aggressively petty.

>>149694131
And of course the new color guides Russell Dauterman created for Wanda in 2023 were specifically validating the people who claim the MCU version is “whitewashed” (and block you when you point out that her “Romani heritage” is as minor in comics as the years she was the daughter of white American superheroes). Every comic featuring Wanda or Pietro now is swarmed online by people checking to see if their skin tone is dark enough for their taste.

There’s no other MCU character where the comics have thrown in with the people who want the MCU version canceled, but Wanda is an exception to a lot of rules, almost always for the worst.

Unfortunately the MCU version coming back, if they ever get around to it, is the only hope to get a comic accurate Wanda again.

>>149694384
These idiots don't even seem to be fans of the characters at all, get all their knowledge from Wikipedia, reached a mistaken assumption of what they "should" look like, and started bullying Marvel into compliance. It's insane.

No matter how many times they're told, they won't listen to the facts that Wanda and Pietro weren't originally gypsies, and that it seems to have been a change unintentionally imposed on them after a group of Marvel writers in 1979 wanted to retcon Pietro and Magneto into being related because they both had white hair, and then in the early 80s someone else wrote backstory for Magneto and decided his wife was a gypsy. At no point in these developments was anyone even considering Wanda.

If it had happened today, it would have just generated a lot of "did Marvel just accidentally make Wanda and Pietro gypsies?" articles, but we get people outright lying and pretending they were always supposed to be brown people but colorists were just ignorant.

It's awful that the modern comics are pandering to these assholes, just as it's awful that a lot of people within Marvel can't see past Magneto when it comes to the twins. Even now they're not canonically related, they just won't let it go, mischaracterizing them badly in the process.

There's also the problem that Marvel spent decades trying to keep Wanda and Vision apart, and kept trying to just make her a love interest for various random other characters instead. Some of the people who were in the Creative Committee complained about AoU introducing Wanda and Vision and setting up their romance, then the comics spent years fighting to keep them apart.

>>149693942
I did not realize that. I guess all of these movies are so disposable even the well liked ones don't really move the needle that much.

>>149694131
Bendis fucking up Wanda predates house of m, it started in disassembled.

>>149694725
You're not wrong, but that really only affected Avengers, so only Avengers readers noticed and cared. The only thing from Disassembled that got any reaction from comics fans who didn't read Avengers was Hawkeye dying. People who'd never read anything Hawkeye was even in being angry he'd died was such a thing that Marvel backed down and brought him back a year later. If you didn't read Avengers, House of M was the first story most people ever saw where Wanda was significant, and it ended up shaping casuals' perspective on who she is, despite it being a completely egregious take on her. They just didn't know any better and didn't care. It's particularly true of X-Men fandom, who knew who she was, but she never really showed up in stories they were reading until then.

If Bendis had stopped at Disassembled, Wanda would have bounced back easily enough, it's House of M reaching a much bigger audience that did the lasting damage. And we have Loeb to thank for it, when he learned Disassembled was happening, he suggested they work Magneto into things, and it all spiralled from there.

>>149694850
Eh, I'd say Evolution was also a big contributor.
Also, the general fact that a lot of comic character retrospective/recaps focus on 'the important events' so big event comics/arcs get more focus then 'character does superhero shit'.

>>149694850
You can see this most obviously in Children’s Crusade, the story that finally brought Wanda back. It’s obvious that like the Young Avengers series itself, the story was conceived in the wake of Avengers Disassembled and the meat of it is that the Young Avengers help Wanda atone by bringing Scott Lang back, but Cassie Lang does in the process.

And then the whole thing is weighed down with endless talk about mutants, which the story has no jurisdiction to change or reverse.

>>149694899
>Eh, I'd say Evolution was also a big contributor.
True, while it's mostly a good cartoon, it has a weird in name only version of Wanda that would have left a generation of kids that her entire character was being a crazy person with daddy issues, and left those kids thinking both Wanda and Pietro were inherently villains. Then the next X-Men cartoon did the same thing with Pietro.

There's a chance Bendis' take on Wanda was as inspired by Evolution as much as it was by John Byrne's late 1980s Avengers comics, the same way Bendis thought comic Carnage had a vampiric power to drain people's life force like he did in the cartoon.

>>149694912
True. It's turned too much of Wanda's comic narrative ever since into reacting to that one event. An anon up above made a comparison with Hank Pym and it's true, they both have that one story that did them dirty and writers just won't let it go.

>Formula of strong characterisation, forgettable villains, humour, emotional moments, plot secondary.
>Few movies, team up, introduce a few more people along the way.
>Culminates in big ending.
>Formula now is imbalanced, too much humour or not enough, every emotional moment undercut.
>Time between sequels is too long for characters people like whilst there are too many dangling plot threads that get ignored.
>Too much content, Phase 4 had a longer screen time than 1-3 put together.
>Introduce too many heroes that no one cares about.
>Disney+ and streaming apathy.
>No momentum, fear of missing out anxiety doesn't drive people to bother anymore.
Doomsday will probably still end up doing very well. But really you need to go back to a formula of 2 movies a year, no shows, team ups more often, less literally whos. Post Endgame you needed a new status quo setting film, build to an Avengers vs Masters of Evil (down to Earth villains.set) and then after the palate cleanser and new situation is established, then you move into a multiverse arc.

>>149694131
I genuinely can't think of one single good contribution made by Bendis.
Even his "good" stuff like Ultimate Spider-Man is mostly just mediocre.

>>149695174
I enjoyed what I read of powers (haven't read the last 3 parts so maybe it goes to shit) and I think Jessica Jones was enjoyable, but his dialog writing really holds him back.

>>149695111
>villains
I absolutely detest the impact MCU left on villain writing as a whole.
Ever since MCU became popular everybody in Hollywood seemed to have accepted the idea that "villains are not important" and it's nearly impossible to find an actual good one now.
And even MCU's supposed "good" villains are either just mediocre or are bad and have that "good" reputation because MCU fans will eat up any slop (case in point, Killmonger)
>>149695219
Alias was non-stop cringe and everything wrong with the 2000s comics in one neat package.
Never read Powers and judging by Bendis' resume have no desire to.

>>149656859
Meh. It makes him sound like a huge egotist. But he makes the best movies in this shitty franchise so I can at least understand it.

>>149656280
What should have been the plan post-Endgame is to essentially start the MCU over again, do a bunch of 'new' movies about new characters with very different direction styles. which was the opposite of what they did.

>>149695625
>Shang Chi
>Eternals

>>149656852
Actors don't wear mask because studios will sub them out for nobodies if they can get away with it and stars rather avoid it. For big names a studio isn't going to pay millions ahead of time and not get some screen time pull with it.

>>149694131
>>149694384
>>149694657

If I were Feige, the moment Multiverse of Madness underperformed I'd have to be asking myself if the popularity of things like Avengers Disassembled or House of M was real or fake.

>>149695957
I just want to see Wanda being an Avenger, being married to Vision, and not being brownwashed, and not wanting to have anything to do with Magneto or mutants, and the comics can't even reach this low bar of the correct normal default, while the MCU speedran directly to the stories that ruined her because that was all Feige knew, and possibly also because "Marvel fans" on Twitter, Youtube and Reddit knew as well. Some of those idiots are still calling for them to do another, more accurate House of M adaptation because she hasn't said "no more mutants" yet. Things are never going to get better.

And if Feige was the type of person who questioned himself, he'd have been trying to course-correct the MCU years ago.

>>149694899
>>149694999
I don't think Wanda in Evolution is nearly as influential as both of you think

>>149681955
>still thinks it's all one guy
what a lolcow

>>149696245
>retard faggot still crying days later resurrecting a dead argument that he lost because he was too fucking dumb
Just quit already, you embarrassing failure. Not just this conversation, quit your life as well. Nobody would mourn you.

>>149691343
wow it's almost as if Deadpool 3 makes it obvious who the TVA are or what the Void is and you're just here whining and claiming there's no context at all

>>149692928
I don't think that's accurate either, I think they're capeshit that are afraid of being capeshit, and stuck to the same formula despite all the set dressing. it's why Superman for example felt like a great watch, it never feels unashamed about being a cheesy superhero movie and despite everything that's happening in the movie it doesn't really hold audience hands explaining every single character or plotline

>>149696234
I got exposed to her more through Wolverine and the X-Men, Super Hero Squad and one Dead Avengers issue.

>>149695621
maybe, but he has the resume to back it up. outside of the excitement seeing the GOTG cast meet with Avengers in IW/Endgame, their actual personalities felt shallow. I don't blame Gunn for being mad that Star-Lord is the reason they lose in Infinity War and it's such a stupid and avoidable scene too

>>149696258
wow I'm sure the autist sperging over multiple people making fun of his unprovoked mental breakdown over Jessica Jones has good advice on how to live my life

>>149696343
>not only it's still crying, it's a subhuman frogshitter as well
Holy shit, and when one thinks trash like you can't can't get any lower.
Just commit suicide at this point.

>non-response
>admitting to his sperging out via no denial
>constant ad hominem attacks
I accept your concession lil timmy, no more (You)'s for you either as it's clear you get off to them

Raul Julia when he was alive or Imhotep's actor would've been a good Kang

>please stop making fun of me for shitting up the thread. please take me seriously
So much for "intelligent discussion" from you, trash. The offer still stands. You know what to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODV6mxVVRZk
At least you finally claim to shut the fuck up, but knowing your kind you words are worth less than a whore that shat you out.

>So much for "intelligent discussion" from you, trash
when did I say that? or did you confuse someone else's words for mine again, thinking it's all one samefag trying to fuck with you?

>>149696447
>>149696471
holy shit both of you faggots should kill yourselves, fucking retards

>I-I'm totally leaving
>n-no let me shit up the thread some more
>still tries to pull "I'm totally not a samefag" when it's blatantly obvious
Hahaha, fucking called it.

>blatantly obvious
sure sure grandma let's get you to bed, I already accepted your concession so I don't get why you're trying to drag the argument further, next you'll tell me I'm samefagging again

>this worthless no-lifer is still going
Why are you resisting suicide so much? If that's how you spend your days, you have nothing to live for.
Everybody would be happy when worms are eating you.

>>149695259
>Alias was non-stop cringe and everything wrong with the 2000s comics in one neat package.
Nah, not really. You sound like a bitch.

>>149696578
>no argument
I guess that's the exact level of discourse one would expect from somebody who likes Bendis' trash.

The lesson they should learn from the shipper female wanda fans they had and lost is they should do more cross hero romance that is not stupid like the hulk and black widow, like when they recast Tony fuck it adapt him and Emma Frost together have she loses to Jean in the Cyclops bowl

Alias was fine, USM was also fine, and so was Bendis' Daredevil run. everything else just got disgustingly worse as time went on, and I don't know why Bendis got hired for anything again in the 2010s

>>149696611
>Alias was fine
No. It was horrible.
>USM was also fine
It's Marvel's equivalent of Hush. It's good if you just start reading comics, but you're supposed to grow out of it and realize it's mediocre at best when you get to older and better stories.
>Daredevil
Only Daredevil run worth shit is Miller.

>>149669530
Any time except the 90's and 2010's.

>>149696676
90s > 2000s

>>149696663
>Only Daredevil run worth shit is Miller
Lol this tells me all I need to know about your """taste""""

>>149696691
Oh God, it's one of the "LE DAREDEVIL NEVER HAD A BAD RUN" casual retards

>only Daredevil run worth shit is Miller
ahahahahaha next you'll tell me TDKR is the only Batman story worth reading

>Bendisfag crying again
Typical.
Sorry your shitty Spider-Man lite was always a trash character with one good run.

>>149696714
me? when did I say anything about Bendis? I'm just tired of people overrating Miller's Daredevil run, and there's been other good runs later, Zdarsky for one

>>149696730
>Zdarsky
I'm so terribly sorry for ever taking you seriously.

I could say the same about you if you think Miller is the only one worth giving a damn, stop living in the 2000s all the time anon, comics are constantly getting worse but there's still glimpses of quality here and there

>>149691762
For me that's the most damning thing about this movie, it doesn't live up to its own potential. It's not like there wasn't anything to do with the concept but the execution ended up being pretty barebones to what could have been with a better writer

>Zdarsky
>quality
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
NEXT YOU'RE GONNA BE TELLING ME AL EWING IS A GOOD WRITER! HAHAHA!

>>149695259
I liked Killmonger a lot but yes, I do think that if nothing else, one of the biggest criticisms you could think of for the MCU is that they just completely fucked up with the villains not named Thanos or Loki. Or Killmonger and the Spidey villains.

They took some of the most complex and interesting characters in the comics and just turned them into generic bad guys most of the time.

>>149664448
Re watch the movies, in every emotional and poignant moment the mask is either off or torn

>>149696859
Lemme guess, certain pages of Immortal Hulk have you a meltdown

>>149696826
The bit with the duplicating Scott's and Hope's is pretty much the only time the film utilised and lived up to an idea or scene it presented. Also I just gotta say despite being a Kang fan, him being the villain made no sense when the whole tyrant of a shrunken universe thing is Psycho-man's deal.

>>149697163
Funny how you bring that up completely unprompted. Looks like a sore spot.
Also Ewing was always shit and I hated him long before Immortal Slop, sorry to disappoint.

>>149697195
>completely unprompted
nta but did you did bring up Ewing unprompted first, you really sound like a zoomer trying to fit in by claiming anything new is bad because reasons

>>149697219
>you think the writer is shit
>MUH TRANNIES
>THAT'S THE SAME ARGUMENT
Do you even hear how retarded you sound? Of course you don't, otherwise you wouldn't make this shitty low-IQ post.
>le zoomer
Older than you, dipshit. You can fuck off back to /r/eddit if you like modern trash, though.

>>149697242
...when did anyone bring up trannies? unless that's part of Immortal Hulk or whatever because I didn't read that comic, I'm the one who said Zdarsky's Daredevil was good so I feel like I'm missing context between you and the other guy here

end this fucking thread already you schizos keep ruining it

>>149697272
Fine, I'll play along.
>"Lemme guess, certain pages of Immortal Hulk have you a meltdown"
is very clearly referring to a trans character appearing on The Immortal Hulk with the implication that I hate Ewing because of that and not because he's a shit fucking writer. Ewing is a Caleb Bunn-tier mediocrity whose only tactic is "look I googled an obscure character from wikipedia, I'm totally a nerd like you" which seemingly works on capeshitters and they latch onto his memberberries and ignore how shitty his books are.

>>149697299
>is very clearly referring to a trans character appearing on The Immortal Hulk with the implication that I hate Ewing because of that and not because he's a shit fucking writer
oh well I appreciate you clearing that up for me, but I wasn't the anon who said that and I never brought up Ewing at all

>>149696297
yeah I think more people were exposed to Wanda via that or the Ultimate comics rather than Evo, it doesn't help that she looks very different in it

>>149697322
I feel bad for anyon whos introduction to a Marvel character was through the Ultimate comics.

>>149697313
Well, then were you the one with
>you only hate new things
Because I very clearly stated that I don't think much of Daredevil before Miller as well. I love Steve Gerber but I can hardly get through his run on the character because it's just so damn boring.
And Lee's original run is a straight-up sedative.
Gene Colan's art when it appears is the only bright spot carrying early Daredevil.

>>149696698
It's ironic that you would call other people a casual.

>>149697430
Seethe, Daredevilfag.
Please tell me of greatness of Chichester, lmao.

>>149697185
>Also I just gotta say despite being a Kang fan, him being the villain made no sense when the whole tyrant of a shrunken universe thing is Psycho-man's deal.
Yeah it makes sense, but Peyton Reed wanted Kang just because

>>149656171 (OP)
endgame did that
that was the worst film i have seen with that much build up
dogshit

I don't get it
Why did they have Kang lose?

>>149698375
The original ending had Kang escaping the Quantum Realm while Scott and Hope get srtanded in there. Reportedly, they reshot it like one montth before release because they felt the ending was too similar to the second film.

>>149698562
honestly they could've just changed it so they don't get stranded but Kang still escapes but moot point in hindsight

>>149656171 (OP)
You're exaggerating

>>149656280
Trannies will be upset but the shift to Woke killed the MCU. They thought they had complete social control after the 2020 election but didnt realize America just wanted to be rid of a retard (who then was replaced by a bigger retard which made him retroactivley not retarded anymore).

>Black Widow - Girlboss
>Shang Chi - Nonwhite and girlboss
>Eternals - Girlboss, gay, and nonwhite
>No Way Home - The truly only white movie (and highest grossing and best reviewed go figure) film of post-Endgame MCU
>Strange 2 - Gay, nonwhite, and girlboss
>Thor - Girlboss and gay
>Panther 2 - Do I need to even say it?

>bumps an almost-archived thread just to post his schizo faggot nonsense
kill yourself nigger

>>149699942
No

>>149662982
>It was obvious that Yelena was a super soldier
Yelena is not a super soldier, she's a Black Widow, there's a scene in Thunderbolts itself that shows the difference in strength between herself and U.S. Agent where she gets scared.

>>149698562
There's actual concept art of Kang's death being just like the movie. Chances are that Marvel had multiple endings and just chose watever they felt like. What was reshoot was final scene in the real world where tthe AntFam was eating, I think even in the original ending Kang dies but Scott and Hope get stranded.

>>149696328
I didn't like GOTG3 desu.
Honestly I felt like GOTG's characters were ruined thanks to Infinity war

Imagine a timeline where Gunn took over for Feige.

>>149682125
No one wants Cassie replacing Scott

>>149701293
>DC only has a win when Marvel is bombing
>will only be 100 million over FF in the end anyway
>will not pass the last franchise starter Man Of Steel

>>149698562
As usual no final script = shit film

>>149701293
What's his competition for 2025?

>>149701436
If she was good it could work but I think they actually work really good as a father-daughter duo like in the comics. She doesn't need to take over his role because Scott is an Ant-Man without a Wasp so Cassie filled that role when she became Stinger. But in the MCU they created Hope so Scott could have a Wasp but she gets thrown to the sidelines the moment Cassie gets her own suit because she's the most important person for Scott.

>>149701464
>3 big movie releases before August from Marvel and yet this measly little new DCU film has them all beat
>singlehandedly restarts the superhero film genre as a result
heh, nothing personal old chum

>>149656171 (OP)
Well they killed off the main Kang & didn't bring back the 3 wombats. Plus Modok isn't that great. Should have been Annihilus so they could do some body horror & mad scientist angle in it

>>149701628
>yet this measly little new DCU film has them all beat
"Measly little film" about the most well known superhero on the planet. And it'll still gross less than the director's previous Marvel movies about a racoon and tree.

>singlehandedly restarts the superhero film genre as a result
This is not a "restart" if it's not even going to pass their last attempt to start a universe, Man of Steel. Supergirl isn't going to make more than this, and I'm still convinced Clayface won't be finished by next September.
The DCUck universe isn't happening.

>>149693818
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.

It's still frustrating, though. Agents of SHIELD spent it's first five seasons excellently telling the story of the Inhumans/Nuhumans and told that story *well*, and then thanks to infighting in Marvel and the idiotic choice to hire Scott Buck - the Inhumans show itself became a wet fart.

>>149700526
Doesn't know it to that extent, thanks anon.
That kind of shit is a sign of how stupid it is to constantly change the narrative form either excecs or audiences screenings. Gunn almost cut the squirrel bit in Superman due to test audiences not responding well.

>>149702489
Yeah they wrote the thing as they filmed with just a vague idea of certain plot beats they wanted to have but that's just how Marvel got used to make movies. I can see why they cut it, it's similar to the cliffhanger of Ant-Man 2 and would be something that would take years to pay off since there would be an entire phase of movies before they get to Kang Dynasty. But they should have realized this on the first draft, not when the movie is a month away from theaters

>>149701806
Maybe poaching villains is not the best idea

>"Given the quality of the Marvel Disney+ output has been incredibly mediocre, it’s dragged the entire brand down and diluted its creative. People don’t care now."

https://geektyrant.com/news/disney-oversaturation-backfires-as-marvel-star-wars-and-pixar-face-brand-damage-people-dont-care-now

>>149704706
Maybe Feige the retard shouldn't have disbanded the showrunner position due to him being a control freak

>>149702274
>DCUck
Incoming ban.

>>149704706
Sounds about right everything collapsed under its own weight and they dived head first with no plan

>>149704706
> Feige specifically pointed to “The Marvels,” the sequel to 2019’s $1 billion-grossing “Captain Marvel,” which brought in $206 million globally, as the movie that was “hit hardest” by the new emphasis on Disney+ and the inclusion of characters from Marvel shows. “People are like, ‘OK, I recognize her from a billion-dollar movie. But who are those other two? I guess they were in some TV show. I’ll skip it,’” Feige said of the story that paired Brie Larson with Marvel TV stars Teyonah Parris and Iman Vellani.

Did Feige get replaced by a lookalike like Paul McCartney? How could he not know beforehand that people would react that way?

When they introduced new characters in someone else’s movie they usually left them out of most of the promotion and let the audience discover them in the film. But imagine Captain America 2 didn’t have Black Widow in it and instead promoted it as a team-up with Sam Wilson.

Somehow he thought Disney+ would make these characters stars already, even while knowing most movie audiences wouldn’t have seen the Disney+ shows.

The movie should have been a family road trip where Scott and Cassie learn to reconnect after the lost years of the snap, with Scott trying to have a normal vacation but reluctantly teaching Cassie the ropes since they keep constantly running into low-level villains and disasters in their road trip, the final boss is MODOK played straight..

>>149692934
>all the resources in the world.
Time, they had no time, at all, the movie was being written as it was being filmed, they technically didn't even have a first draft.

>>149707341
It's over

>>149707060
Marvel just loves to do this shit, for them a movie can be edited days before its release

>>149656171 (OP)
Thor Love and Thunder was what did it for me, one of the few times I remember watching a movie and my emotion throughout it being anger at how unfathomably shit it was rather than standard disappointment

>>149707341
LOL

>>149709422
But the screaming goat meme! Wasn't that funny?

>>149709164
They do this since the original Iron Man

>>149709422
I liked it and don't know why people have such a hate boner for it. It's better than Thor 1 and 2, slightly worse than 3.

>>149704953
I'm still here, DCuck.

>>149711014
Iron Man's plot was figured out in 2006, roughly two years before it released, any last minute alterations were the result of adlibbing.