Thread 149659069

Do you consider it to be overrated?

Actually yes, like everything Moore did it somehow got held up as a standard everyone felt obligated to follow slavishly. Actually making Barbara's crippling canon was really adding insult to injury (quite literally)

>>149659069 (OP)
It's a good one-shot, but it's treated like a masterpiece, so yes. It shouldn't rank above For the Man Who Has Everything.
>>149659105
Moore's bigger projects are justifiably highly rated.

>>149659069 (OP)
Yeah, basically. The Joker is overrated in general.

>>149659069 (OP)
Nope.

>>149659069 (OP)
Yes, but I do think it’s good and so some over correct and underrate it, similar thing has happened with Kingdom Come.

>>149659069 (OP)
My main opinion is that the recolor is absolute fucking trash. That is all.

On its own? No

Based on the fact that DC is physically unable to stop referencing it up until today (Hush 2) under the hands of lesser talent/hacks? Yes

>>149659069 (OP)
Just edgy misery porn.
>oooh if I kill this mass murdering scumbag I am just like h
Just break his fucking neck.

>>149659069 (OP)
I like it.

>>149659069 (OP)
Yes but generally because 99% of the time, anything like this just is utter shit in comic book format
You can't fucking do what the author wants without having paragraphs of text explaining shit

>>149659835
It’s insane people think this is normal to think like this. No different than people seeing articles about pedos and immediately frothing at the mouth talking about genital mutilation, rape, torture and murder.

Deranged.

>>149660282

To be fair, the anon didn't said anything about torturing him, simply cutting his life short.

Sometimes, some people just need to be gone if you want shit to get better.

>>149660282
Are you having an episode, xister?

>>149660326
Deranged.

>>149660386
I’d argue the faggots doing the typical “b-b-Batman should kill people!” are perpetually having an episode.

>>149660640
Why are you so quick to jump to defend criminals?

>>149659069 (OP)
Absolutely not. Bolland's art is a tour de force, probably in the top 10 best drawn comic books ever.

>>149660668
I didn’t. In fact I said people should refrain from demanding criminals commit crimes against criminals.

>>149659069 (OP)
I don't like the word "overrated", it's an empty filler weasel word used to hide the fact the person is saying it bothered by the fact something is popular but they don't want to admit they are bothered by this since it sounds petty when said out loud so they use it to imply something is wrong with the work and not them. If you removed the word from any talk piece about media it always improves the review/critic because it's less vague. Like let's pretend everyone agrees the killing joke is Overrated, what then? With bad writing you can atleast writer a better story, with bad art you could redo the art but how do you fix something being "overrated"? Do we have put a limit on the number of people allowed to say they like the story and then anyone over that limit has to say they don't like it? How do we determine how many people are allowed to like it before it's overrated? Do we have to hire an equal number of haters to give the illusion of it having a mixed reception?

Okay that being said I thought it was a fine story. Granted I was exposed to a lot of edgy joker stories before it so this wasn't as shocking as I got the impression of it being.

Honestly, not really. It's a great dark batman story without going too far over the edge. Look at what dark batman is nowadays. This is way better then The Batman Who Laughs or most other dark batmans.

>>149659069 (OP)
>>149659105
It's a good and well written comic, that even Alan Moore wishes had never been written because of the overwhelmingly negative impact it had on both Batman and DC comics.

>>149659069 (OP)
TDKR is more overrated

>>149661462
Not really. A decade ago, maybe, but people kept bitching about DKR so much that it now circled back around to being underrated

>>149659069 (OP)
It's probably the most divisive comic of all time. Most people either think it's one of the best comics ever or one of the worst. The former are overrating it and the latter are underrating it.

>>149659069 (OP)
Honestly, the Babs part does bring it down a lot. I can see why Moore disowns it, but that part where Commissioner Gordon tells Batman to do it by the book really does hit hard.
I know they were attempt something similar with Gordon's wife in NML, but NML was shit.

>>149659648
>The Joker is overrated in general.
Facts.

>>149661462
TDKR is better by a lot. Better version of the Joker too.

>>149659069 (OP)
its fine

Killing Joke, Dark Knight Returns, and Year One are the eternal trinity of easily-digestible big Batman stories. There are none better that aren't either some long run or a one-off.

>>149665707
>There are none better that aren't either some long run or a one-off.
I can't think of three better Batman comics even with this criteria.

>>149665707
I don’t know why you consider Killing Joke to be easily digestible. it’s probably the only one in your list that actually makes me uneasy to recollect and read.

>>149663761
DRK basically ruined Batman for 40 years and led to endless "Batman vs. Superman" powerlevel discussions. It's an alright comic but it's precedence was a fuckin disaster.

>>149666746
It led to the explosion in popularity of Batman. Burton's Batman and Batman: TAS were greenlit because of it.
It's a great comic, but it should have ended there. The character was never as good before or since.

>>149666746
I think the bigger problem is that it opened the door for endless derivative 'what if superhero was old in shithole future' stories

>>149659069 (OP)
This and Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow sucks.

Feels infantile compared to Watchmen and For the Man who has Everything.

Still need to read Swamp Thing.

>>149659069 (OP)
does anybody have the /co/ remake from a few years back?

>>149661462
Gr8 b8 only contrarians think this.

post homages

>>149659069 (OP)
Why did people have a fit over Batman having consensual sex with Batgirl in the adaptation

>>149666746
Great popular works often lead to many shitty imitations.

Egregious.

>>149668794
All you can say when you see something like this is "I'm glad that Brian Bolland continues to get big fat paychecks from Warner Brothers."

>>149661462
True

>>149659828
People lost their shit when he said that modern dc is a bunch of raccons scavenging trash that is his 80s output but he was completely right

>>149659069 (OP)
Underrated. It's better than a lot of well liked capeshit.

>>149667127
Imagine writing an animated adaptation for this story but being unable to comprehend a reason for Batman to care about Batgirl getting shot and crippled so you make them lovers so he has a reason to care.

>>149666746
People who hate TDKR always understate its influence.
Yeah, it may have lead to some BvS powerlevel discussions, it also completely invented modern Batman. Every comic, every movie, every show, every video game, EVERYTHING, after TDKR is inspired by TDKR. All movies and comics from now on should say "Batman created by Frank Miller"

>>149659069 (OP)
It's a solid 8/10

>>149669526
Only the bad ones.

>>149666878
Seconding this request

>>149667084
In next christmas we should make a homage thread.

>>149665707
The Long Halloween?

>>149668794
wtf

>>149666746
You need to get off the internet if you believe a word of that.

>>149666866
>For the Man who has Everything
>Swamp Thing

His two best comics. Aside from maybe Captain Britain.

>>149666398
In the sense that it's a stand-alone work that you can read within a single sitting.
>>149670539
The Long Halloween has some nice art, but the mystery itself is poorly written and it lifts so much dialogue and events from The Godfather. The Haunted Knight trilogy is better, but those are just regular Batman stories, still not on the level of the big three.

>>149666866
There are parts of Whatever Happened that I think are really fun, but it also has a lot of bits that I can only describe properly as "reminders that Alan is a brit".

I don't hate that it's overrated, I hate that everyone who claims to love it completely and totally missed the point.
It wasn't "one bad day" that made The Joker, he's just a lonely rotten freak.

>>149668794
HOLY SHI-

>>149670580
Captain Britan doesn't make his top 20

>>149659069 (OP)
It's fine but gets a boost from Moore's reputation. I hardly ever think about it. I think about Year One, DKR, and even Batman RIP far more often.

>>149669342
This. At least it’s not Hush.

>>149671418
Even without Moore's name on it, it would have been big. Nice art, Joker, something Important happens (Barbara crippled).

>>149659069 (OP)
Overrated as a term ends up just becoming meaningless when it is used so often. I think part of the problem is the hype machine:
>This was overhyped to me and it didn't meet the high expectations I got from the hype.
>Therefore it is overrated.
Comic books have a huge problem with this because of rec list mentality:
>Comic books were a disposable low profit margin form of entertainment with a quick creative turnaround.
>The fact that any comics are highly regard is a testament to the brilliant creatives but it is still in this context.
>A great comic is probably not equivalent to something that is great in another medium.
>Rec lists are full of the same few books that are either good, neccessary or infamous and get evergreen reprints.
>People either bounce off those books e.g. they are overhyped/overrated or alternatively appeal to those books as some grand authority and pinacle of quality even if they didn't understand those books.
>People repeat the rec list and the cycle continues.
I enjoyed The Killing Joke, it isn't a long story but it has many memorable moments which unfortunately can no longer be decoupled from the context of what happened afterwards. I disliked the recolouring. I think if you allow yourself to constantly call something overrated, that's on you for allowing yourself to be swayed by bullshit hype rather than taking something on its own merits.

>>149671250
It may be my favorite Marvel comic.

>>149659069 (OP)
not really?

>>149665707
We need to start introducing pic related as essential Batman comics to newcomers

>>149672111
Arkham Asylum was big because it came out a few months after the movie, but it's not normie-friendly at all. It's a pre-Vertigo Vertigo book edited by Karen Berger with weird art and dream-logic. Morrison eventually had to come out and explain that the entire thing is a dream Bruce is having.

Killing Joke, Knightfall and Death in the Family are the holy trinity for casuals.

>>149672240
Why does Batman so frequently dream of his villains pissing and shitting themselves and Joker grabbing his ass?

>>149672111
This shit is ass. Full stop.

>>149672502
The latter two are well-known stories but Knightfall is long, 23 issues for Knightfall itself, then over 30 for KnightQuest, and 10 for KnightsEnd. Death in the Family is only known because people voted to kill Jason, had that not happened, it would have been a nothing-story.

>>149672580
Which is unfortunate, because Death in the Family is a fuckin' unhinged story outside of the ending.

What isn't fucking overrated to /co/? Nothing popular can ever be good.

>>149672631
It's just following the storytelling zeitgeist of the era with international politics, "diplomatic immunity." Deranged to put Joker in a story like that, true.

>>149672240
Apparently everyone in the late 80s thought that Morrison had his head up his own ass because of how little sense AA made.

>>149665707
DC has an audio drama series called High Volume. It's basically just performed versions of comics and they've done Year One, Long Halloween, and are now doing Dark Victory so it seems like DC themselves seem like those are the best starter Batman stories for normies.

>>149672832
>seem
Thinks*

>>149672743
It's an arty hipster book for arty hipsters, yes.
>>149672832
That seems to follow the logic of year one->year one+x continuing and resolving the Falcone plot which is sensible enough.

>>149670336
remember the spazzing over this one?

>>149666878
>>149670011
This one?
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/120012692

>>149659648
He's overrated, yeah, but he still has good stories, like the Killing Joke.

>>149659069 (OP)
Not nowadays

>>149666746
>DRK
Dark Returns Knight?

>>149669526
Maybe I'm showing my lack of knowledge on the subject but I feel like Year One did that more than TDKR.
Either way your point still stands about Miller.

>>149672743
It didn’t help that Morrison wanted a more traditional house artist to draw it, he hated how zany and abstract it looked

>>149675934
DKR predates Year One, it was downstream of it itself.

>>149675920
Apparently it's the German red cross.

>>149669526
>Every comic, every movie, every show, every video game, EVERYTHING, after TDKR is inspired by TDKR.
The only way you would think this is if TDKR was your first Batman comic and you read nothing that came before it.

>>149660282
>>149660640
its actually morally justifiable to want bad people to be dead dude. i know you wanna live in a world where people dont die and the most consequences they face for their actions is a stint in prison, because you probably operate under the logic that "its better to let criminals rot than to kill them." that is a true sentiment, most of the time it is unethical to put people to death for their actions, but there are a great many people who we would most definitely be better off with dead, and its disingenuous to argue otherwise, and its certainly reasonable to think "damn batman should kill this guy hes kinda cray"

>>149676299
Before Miller, Batman wasn't a socially stunted, surly and sadistic loner who was as mentally ill as his villains. Joker was an occasional serial killer who killed more of his own underlings than innocent people, but not a mass murderer.

>>149676255
Yeah I know but I guess I always thought Year One was what really influenced the future over TDKR.

>>149676490
So we agree that only the terrible, shitty adaptations have copied miller then?

>>149676372
Be that as it may, why is it the job of the unsanctioned vigilante in the bat costume to kill the murder clown? You could be arguing that the courts should have sentenced him to death, or that the police should have just shot him in the process of protecting people from him, but instead you're arguing not only that someone needs to kill the Joker, but that it has to be Batman to do it.

>>149660740
The Joker should be executed by the state after due process. Is that better?

>>149661462
The only way to find DKR overrated is if you hate comics in general, cause it's literally the best comic of all time.

>>149676648
The first two Burton and Nolan films and the post-TAS DCAU are all high quallity.

>>149677331
The first Burton film is alright, the second is trash. I honestly cannot fucking stand the Nolan films, they've aged like milk. And Batman isn't a weird mentally ill loner in TAS.

>"My backstory is multiple choice!"
>Used as the Canon backstory for years

>>149677474
Post-TAS, not TAS itself.

>>149677500
It wasn't brought up at all in most stories. After Infinite Crisis Lovers and Madmen in Batman Confidential was written as an alternate origin. After the New 52 reboot, it was Zero Year.

>>149672511
As prep time in case they try that against him.

>>149678368
Batman is the least interesting and most flanderized part of the rest of a DCAU. That is part of the reason we have preptime batgod.

You're really just reaffirming my original point, Frank Miller ruined Batman.

>>149678480
Preptime batgod isn't from the DCAU, it was specifically Mark Waid's Tower of Babel that started that.

>>149659069 (OP)
I like that its just dark, but doesn't overstay its welcome or jerk itself off too much. Its perhaps overrated, but its still good.

I'd like to see more stuff where its just like "here's the story, it has a message, then it ends" and not this stuff where its this stupid franchise stuff with like 50 chapters an shit with unneeded philosophy/psuedo-intellectualism.

Also, I liked the implication that Batman strangled The Joker. Not out of hate or anything, but just because he saw there was no redeeming him or fixing him.

>>149678601
There's no implication and that's contrary to what Gordon told him to do, bring him in by the book.

>>149659069 (OP)
No, it's a great starter comic if you wanna know the Joker a lot more.

>>149678480
Miller made him great.

>>149659835
not in general. This just applied to Batman because he doesn't want to cross the line, then he won't be able to stop himself, or doesn't trust himself to know where to stop. And someone with his resources would be vastly more dangerous than any of the people he fights if he descends into full paranoia.
Same reason you can support the idea of having a death penalty, but back out because the government can't be trusted with carrying that out. And they've proven themselves incompetent with it multiple times. And private justice doesn't work either since some jackasses somewhere will inevitably screw up, get info wrong, and kill the wrong guy.

>>149681999
In TKJ it's not even that Batman worries he'll never go back or that he doesn't want to kill if he has to, his main issue in fact is he worries he's going to eventually kill Joker in a situation he has to, but didn't need to.

He showed up at Arkham at the beginning to explain as much, but Joker wasn't there to hear the warning.
Batman only stops himself from rightfully beating Joker to death after a threat on his life to clarify things again.

So rather than suggesting any no-death rule, TKJ made clear if Joker doesn't rein it in one day he's going to just end up under the Batmobile when there's no time for his games at the expense of saving others.

>>149659069 (OP)
I liked it years ago when I first read it, but now, it is kind of a whatever story. The art is the only thing I like about it now. I prefer the original colors over the new muted palette they insist on using in reprints.

>>149677474
This shit taste.

>>149678601
>Also, I liked the implication that Batman strangled The Joker.
Man, I am a Morrison fag but him saying this on the fat man podcast was among his biggest fucking blunders.

>>149683452
How can a batman movie who that utterly hates the fucking concept of Batman be any good? Its crazy to me how people will bitch and moan about how superhero movies are "embarrassed about being superhero movies," and then Jack off the fucking Nolan Trilogy, of all things.

>>149659069 (OP)
All Batman comics are overrated to some extent

>>149659069 (OP)
If anythig it's underrated, considering these are the kind of reactions it provokes nowadays tumblr.com/glitter-stained/773094701007077376/the-thing-about-the-killing-joke-as-a-comic

>>149684275
Tumblr has unhinged opinions about everything though. They don’t represent the majority of people.

>>149673717
Yes, I have in a old dvd all those rafael ablurquerque homages cover.
2012-2013 were the trigger years.

>>149672111
I remember reading this after hearing it was supposed to be some masterpiece and it fucking sucked.

>>149684923
filtered

>>149683506
Batman Returns is the best Batman movie. I don't care about Nolan, but grow up.

>>149659069 (OP)
Highly. People also take the wrong message from it (to be fair said people only pretend to have read it) and think it's so deep that anyone could be Joker after "le one bad day" when even in the story, Gordon didn't crack. It's just Joker that's broken.

>>149676990
You're surprised that a comic that portrays its courts and cops as incompetent and glorifies vigilante justice has fans that... prefer vigilante justice?

>>149686332
>>149676990
>>149676372
NOTHING Batman does is admissible in court. Gotham has a revolving door policy on criminals BECAUSE Batman doesn't do anything properly or make any difference.

>>149684892
The damage the trigger years did to comics is all but irreversable.

>>149686346
Yeah. People forget America is not a puppet state to their personal whims. We don't put people to death for how much better the world would supposedly be—if we started doing it for this reason millions would have to die for not having greater use.

>>149659069 (OP)
I wish it never happened at all.

>>149683506
The Dark Knight is in the National Film Registry of "culturally, historically or aesthetically significant films" it wouldn't be there if it wasn't a genuinely good film, it doesn't have the minority pass.

>>149686645
At least the first shit in a week will probably feel good.

>>149687204
All that means is that normies liked it, there are plenty of awful films in the national film registry. It's a fucking terrible Batman adaptation with a nonsense plot.

>>149686297
>Fucked up Ra's AND scarecrow.
>Stupid fucking Batman voice
>"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."
>Awful love interest.
>Another stupid sci-fi macguffin plot.

Nolan is overrated as fuck.

>>149659069 (OP)
Anything starring the joker is inherently cringe

>>149673717
For me the argument was always retarded because barely anyone reads fucking comics and most of the people complaining about the variant covers are outrage tourists who at most are sort of people who post am out-of-context page/panel on their tumblr or various social media platform rather than get a book, they are tangential "fans". I get the argument that: the Batgirl series at the time was definitely skewing towards a younger audience (it was a little bit cringeworthy) and variant covers should probably fit the tone of a book more. That being said, the simple fact is you kind of have to go out of your way to see variant covers or buy them. Variant covers are a dumb gimmick that attract whale consumers who are collectors, speculators and retards. They buy the book for the cover and not because they are fans of the book. I have nothing against edgy or sexy covers but variants sometimes just feel like such retarded promotion that makes little sense. Marvel are doing Muppet variant covers to celebrate 70 years of Muppets, what has that got to do with Marvel comics besides the fact they did some Muppet comics and are both owned by Disney? So we have a nothing burger social media debate from people who don't even read comics, retarded variant consumers and generally shit gimmick practices at a company. Pic related was just as stupid.

>>149688019
>All that means is that normies liked it
That's not how the National Film Registry works.
>there are plenty of awful films in the national film registry.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant.
> It's a fucking terrible Batman adaptation with a nonsense plot.
Not doing Batman exactly the way you think it should be done doesn't make it terrible, and well, it's Batman. There's always going to be some nonsense in it.

>>149688564
Plan 9 from Outer Space in the the NFR because it's a bad movie. Something being culturally, aesthetically or historically relevant doesn't mean it's good. And even if it was a good film, it's still shit as a Batman movie.

>>149688053
Correct. But you still have to grow up

>>149688814
>Plan 9 from Outer Space in the the NFR because it's a bad movie.
You're mistaken, not there at all.

>>149688890
Ah, I was incorrect on that one, I'll cop to that. Either way "other people decided this movie was good, therefore it is good," is shit reasoning. TDK is lame and cringe.

>>149686346
Why the law in magical sci fi comic land work exactly the same as it does the real world? Surely they would have figured out how to accommodate all the vigilante nonsense that happens everyday of their lives. Seriously, what do you think would happen, in real life, if the cops found a bunch of random guys with concussions tied up with ropes? Why they immediately assume they're a reason to arrest them, even with the supposed evidence in next to them?

>>149688957
It's not just anyone who selects the films https://www.loc.gov/programs/national-film-preservation-board/about-this-program/board-members/
Yeah I find their credentials more authoritative than "some disgruntled Batman comic fan."

>>149659648
>>149688062
Trvke

>>149659069 (OP)
Yes

>>149659069 (OP)
No

>>149659069 (OP)
Maybe

>>149659926
Judge Death coming back this October.

>>149684275
>that post
The victim complexes some people have are crazy.

>>149674184
My eyes have cancer

>>149689326
>I prefer the opinions of people who have zero interest in comics over people who actively read comics.

Okay, so I can safely ignore your fucking stupid opinion, then.

>>149692390
I read comics, but I'd take the opinion of someone who likes good media over someone who just reads a lot of comics any day. People who read a lot of comics develop brain rot that gives them absolutely shit taste, so they definitely can't be relied on.

>>149692514
The point
.
.
.
.
.
Your head

>>149659069 (OP)
it's alright

>>149692390
The argument was over whether or not it's a good film. Yeah there's quite a bit of "not muh" in there just like every other superhero adaptation, but it's still a good movie on its own merits. I doubt a comic-accurate film would be all that good, it's two different kinds of media.

>>149688546
this one was another batch of bullshit. Women sperging over nothing.

>>149659069 (OP)
IT’S NOT ALRIGHT

>>149691868
I’m sad to hear that

>>149691868
Meh, there’s been worse things created by 4chan

>>149659069 (OP)
somewhat

>>149692526
You lost the plot.

>>149693967
wdym

>>149691868
same

>>149669490
Imagine doing an adaptation of a famous story written by someone else and feeling the need to force your own shipfic into it.

>>149667127
Because they can’t self insert

>>149659069 (OP)
can you repeat the question

>>149659069 (OP)
Alan Moore comics are overrated by default