Thread 149688307

NO LIMITS!!!

OH NO!
HE IS GONNA GO
0 - 3

>big two character has all his feats front-loaded
I don't like where this is going...

literally wtf can Godzilla do against Hulk?

Only people with at least a 1-0 win ratio can post.

>>149688307 (OP)
the power of the Ph.D will win

>>149688334
CHADulk has over 30 years in Rayner. He needs more time for his feats.

>>149688334
Lol they glazed Simon so hard in his analysis section and didn't give anything noteworthy to Kyle on his side.

>>149688336
Either they pull out the stops for Ultima or use crossover stuff (mainly marvel crossover things maybe)

>>149688345
True .

>>149688349
they never gave Simon shit in his preview from what I remember

>>149688367
I think they said he can do anything by the end of it.

>>149688336
Toho lawsuit. T-take that, chud…!

>>149688383
I thought Godzilla was the chud?

>>149688379
Yeah and they said Kyle could do that and also that he was casually 12.3D giggaversal and faster than the speedforce in base

Hulk is tranny-coded

>>149688390
Since when?

>>149688391
But Simon....could do even better!

>>149688307 (OP)
>World Breaker
>First Firmament
>Crossroads
>About to reach Thor scaling
The only notable thing they didn't cover was the green door
Hulk's fucked

>>149688408
Toho ghosted this faggot and stopped replying to his emails

>>149688345
What can hulk even do when this fat assed bitch does archetype manipulation and space-time distortion by just existing

>>149688435
Tank it because this is a city level BITCH who gets hurt by regular military weapons

>>149688435
It's going to be funny when SRW Y lets you one-shot Ultima with just about any unit.

>>149688419
Imagine if they bring up Godzilla in Hell in the preview, it would be so fucking funny lmao

>>149688440
Hulk has plenty of low showings. I am sure he has been hurt by normal humans.

>>149688435
Ultima would get low diffed by the likes of Reed Richards.

Hulk is a writer's pet Mary Sue-type.

>>149688419
Green Door was closed

>>149688345
>>149688364
>>149688435
We'll probably figure if they're using Ultima or not next week
If they're not using Ultima they'll mention it with GMK, Earth, etc about how Godzilla has had many interpretations before firmly shifting to the common origin story that'll be composited
If Ultima is used they won't mention it or clearly segway into it

>>149688440
>hurt

>>149688461
Sure but if you go by their high showings then Ultima threatens a single universe and Hulk threatens infinite multiverses

>>149688469
Lobo lost his immortality and they still kept it for his fight with Ghost Rider
Stark gets to use all his trashed tech and inventions

>>149688415
Yes but you can't say that they "didn't give anything noteworthy to Kyle". He got as much scaling as every other capeshit heroes with a few exceptions. Venom and Phoenix have received bigger nerfs than Kyle.

>>149688479
>infinite multiverses
One multiverse and that got undone by time fuckery.

>>149688435
Does he to thighjobs?

>>149688478
FFFFFUUUCCK IT TAKES HIM MULTIPLE SECONDS TO CHARGE A LASER THAT TAKES A WHILE TO GO THROUGH BUILDINGS?

Hulkbros, my WALL is getting SCARED...

>>149688467
>Why did hulk lose to broly!?!

>>149688489
They said in GR vs Spawn that Marvel's cosmology is infinite multiverses

>>149688467
>Character can pass through and infinite corridor
>Gets hurt by being shoved into a wall

>>149688457
Godzilla in Hell is only a problem if they take the WoG of ONE of the writers involved with it seriously

I am rooting for the Hulk.

>>149688478
*GULP*

W-watch out, Hulk! This guy takes 30 seconds to charge his beam and very slowly cut some buildings in half!

>>149688482
Except when you compared it side by side to Simon it clearly was weaker by a ton. They even gave Kyle a weakness while Simon got none and kept talking about how Simon could do the impossible over and over again in his side. Going into the fight, Simon was clearly favored to win .

>>149688510
his power is maximum

>>149688527
>CHUD
Hulkxisters... I thought Hulk was an ally?

>>149688478
This is Ultima's best on screen feat BTW

Reminder that Ultranigger dodges giving a Hulk vs Broly Q&A harder than Trump dodges the Epstein question

They should use MCU Hulk, since he's the most popular incarnation of the character by far.

>>149688549
Isn't he Indian?

>>149688550
>DB releases alongside news of Hulk showing up in the newest Spiderman movie
>MCU hulk's temperament is used as an argument that he can't maintain his anger

>>149688532
>Except when you compared it side by side to Simon it clearly was weaker by a ton.
Yes but they still gave Kyle almost all his feats, it's just that they decided Simon was stronger.

>>149688558
Gamma radiation isn't radiation. It's magical One Below All Hell woo.

>>149688478
Gamera fodderizes this jobber.

>>149688364
Shin Godzilla's hyper evolution simply alters the formula.

>>149688532
They're talking about the previews where the only thing Simon got was a "spiral energy can do anything!" statement (Which Kyle also got with the GL ring), not the actual analysis in the episode

>>149688349
I think he is referring to just their previews rather than full analysis. Simon's stopped before it got into the goofy part 2 shit and left out the Otoko stuff near the beginning bullet points that got shown in the full ep. Kyle's I think had more going for it with them frontloading the 12.3 dimensional thing before White Lantern. Then when it came to the full episode they both got super glazed with em both basically being "outerversal" to the point standard stats didn't matter and it simply came down to power growth + potential which is where Simon took it.

>>149688561
Black
He's said he's black

>>149688572
Bruce Banner uses his hyper intelligence granted to him by the Writer Above All for the sole purpose of winning.

>>149688478
Reminder that his beams are shown to actually slice through buildings later on because he's gradually getting stronger

what fights change if they got a rematch today?
hard mode: no Tifa vs Yang

>>149688566
Pretty sure Marvel Godzilla was mutated with Gamma radiation

ultima when he erases banner's dad from the timeline in every universe causing him to develop proper rage managment and have no trauma-response second personality:

>>149688606
Bejita vs Mewtwo

>>149688606
Hulk would win 100% of the time because the Breaker-Apart is infinite multiverse-tier

OH NO!
HE'S NOT GONNA GO
3 - 0

Reminder that women have more wins over men on Death Battle.

>>149688620
DoomKEKS…

>>149688619
Doomsday is now the Time Trapper, he beats any iteration of Hulk you could think of

>>149688336
Submit

>>149688614
Right, just like Ultima erased the parents of the scientists or the 1940s Jap military who BTFO'd him in Singular Point

>>149688606
Both Hulk fights.

>>149688590
Godzilla uses his boundless toonforce powers to threaten the marvel editorial to let him win, otherwise no more crossovers with him for a decade.

>>149688468
>zillapets actually believe this

>>149688614
>Hulk: Big reptile better do that funny dance Hulk likes, or else Hulk Smash!
>Godzilla:

>>149688606
Carnage vs Lucy?

>>149688690
Kek, based, canon.

>>149688641
13D outerveral temporal chrono manipulation, trust ze plan

>>149688606
>Pikachu vs Blanka
Given it's anime Pikachu?
Legendary Scaling and that cloud feat from that one movie seals the deal unless scaling to E. Honda busting that meteor scales harder.
>Tigerzord vs Epyon
Empyreal scaling and even scaling to Rita like they did with the Dragonzord would probably have been enough to beat out Epyon's space station cleave
>Deadpool vs Deathstroke
Maybe? I know the sword Deadpool used in the fight wasn't something 616 Deadpool has ever used. I remember the episode being really contentious among the forums at the time.
>Strider vs Ryu Hayabusa
IIRC Swan said Ryu Hayabusa could give Naruto a good fight
>Hulk vs Broly
Yeah, the research team likes to pretend this one never existed

>outerveral
ESLzilla...

>>149688729
Deathstroke can't put Deadpool, as simple as that.

>>149688717
Hulk can just use the green door and his inner Hulkscape to go back in time and become a stronger Hulk who can withstand it. He is literally the anti-TOAA at full power. That makes him a top 2 character in all of Marvel Comics.

I hope composite Godzilla looks like this in the Death Battle

Actually now that I think about it, what can Hulk do about Godzilla pulling a Hal? I mean he's shattered chronal barriers, fooght numerous people who can travel through time with sheer speed, but asides from that what does he have to counteract this? Geniunely curious.

>>149688755
He just becomes the Breaker-Apart and destroys infinite multiverses.

>>149688753
He looks gay though

>>149688747
BFR and incap are considered valid wincons now
I think Scorpion vs Ryu would have gone differently unless they'd still give it Scorpion if they count for the fact that Ryu can't leave the Netherrealm

>>149688747
Deathstroke can kill him just fine. Death Battle really likes wanking healing factors unless the difference in power is just too absolute like with Chosenborn or Raiden vs Wolverine

>>149688753
That looks retarded and is proof why "compositing literally everything" is a bad idea
You save these abominations for shit like Composite Ryu vs Composite Goku which are supposed to be jokes but even those two are easier to have complete composite than Godzilla

>>149688755
Post Godzilla ever using time travel to win.

>>149688779
Nothing wrong with looking happy. Look at that smile. What a loveable guy.

>>149688795
>The cope has started
The Hulk posting has finally gotten to the Godzillabros..

>Wiz: Some say he's the collection of souls seeking revenge toward a country that ignored its past atrocities, a bizarre plant creature that's the end result of natural selection, an avatar of a greater Eldritch being beyond comprehension....
>Boomstick: and whatever the Hell the guy who made Evangelion was smoking! Just look at that thing.
>Wizard: But the story we all know takes place somewhere in the Pacific Ocean where atomic testing awakened something ancient and mutated it beyond anything we can control...
>Boomstick: SpongeBob SquarePants!!!
This is how Godzilla's rundown is gonna start

>>149688773
I mean cool, but that doesn't really fix that problem lmao. As seen with GR vs Spawn, DB is extremely forgiving when it comes to Hax vs AP differences, as Zarathos GR would be capable of much the same as Wolrd-Breaker/Breaker-Apart Hulk.

>>149688798
Oh can he not do that? I just got the idea from the thread that he could. I personally don't know all that much about Godzilla so I though it was just a win-con worth discussing if he potentially could.

Ngl that intro for Hulk goes hard as hell.
Sometimes I forget how cool these characters are because of all the homoposting.
Hope the episode ends up being Kino

>>149688729
doesn't Ryu have universal lore statements?

>>149688856
>Sometimes I forget how cool these characters are because of all the homoposting.
My fucking sides. This place does make some incredibly homosexual stuff huh

>>149688747
Deathstroke vastly outstats and outskills Deadpool. All Wade has over Slade is better regeneration.

>>149688857
also the mountain feat from the Yaiba game

>>149688856
Hulk was always cool.

>>149688527
I'd wear a t-shirt with this design

>>149688752
>still gets GAPED by a goth girl with a pony fetish

>>149688795
>Composite Ryu
What does this even look like? The only notable shit I noticed Ryu gets buffed with is Asura’s Wrath steroids.

>>149688882
>gets gaped by Apoc

>>149688892
gay and lame

>>149688895
Marvel vs Capcom and that's all that's notable

>>149688897
>[pure retarded headcanon]

>>149688895
This is Ryu, he's a wandering world warrior from Japan who specializes in a special form of Karate and can use an evil super form called the Satsui no Hado and a purified enlightened state called Mu no Ken.
He's fought the cast of Smash Bros, Tekken, SNK, Family Guy, American Dad, Tatsunoko anime, Power Rangers, Marvel, other Capcom franchises, every character and guest in Fortnite (which includes Kratos, Master Chief, DC characters, Terminators, Predators, and what is basically a never ending supply of fighters) and even went head on against Barack Obama.
He's fought alongside numerous characters from Bamco and Sega franchises consisting of but not limited to .hack, Xenosaga, Virtua Fighter, Valkyria Chronicles, Space Channel 5, Tales of, Shenmue, etc and even fought side by side with Segata Sanshiro himself
He's also a con artist, GI Joe, musician, field researcher, break dancer, an Iron Fist, Transformer, Red Bull sponsor, Power Ranger, Korean commercial singer, Turkish car insurance commercial actor, and member of the Lost Planets crew.
Say something nice to him.

Kratos (scaled down to multiversal level) vs The Living Tribunal
Who wins?

>>149688926
He even has a connection to SRW thanks to Project X Zone. The man is everywhere.

>>149688960
>39c
I miss humanity.

>>149688946
You cannot scale CHADOS down to multiversal with any antifeat

>>149688926
Barbie victim

Who's he fighting that has him like this?

>>149688980
Kratos

>>149688980
Superboy prime

>>149688960
Even max power Kratos cant beat these prices...

>>149688980
composite female

>>149688606
Likely both of the non-Ryuko Shadow episodes considering how sonic scaling nowadays is pure brainrot
Ganondorf vs Bowser (fucking duh)
Meanwhile Madara vs Aizen was just considered wack when it came out

What's the appeal of Composite Ryu vs Composite Goku?

>>149688980
the bag of vomit

Thoughts on the preview Hulkbros? I liked the introductory Bill Bixby quote.

>>149688946
Living Tribunal, only because KINGtos felt pity for such a weakling so he gave him a free win.
>>149688980
KIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGTTTTTTOOOOOSSSSS!!!

>>149689009
i wonder if the guys behind this show have a ryona fetish or something

>>149688364
Not quite the same. Scientists don't just solve situations, there's tons of trial and error which is the very principle that science is based upon. You answered the question? Congratulations Banner, ONTO THE NEXT QUESTION OUT OF 1 BILLION!

>>149689007
It's a joke
Ben has said he's seen unironic requests for Goku vs Ryu and while he gets the visual comparison, he knows it's too stupid to even attempt to play straight and try to find a valid wincon like he tried with Venom vs Bane
The whole appeal of Composite Goku vs Composite Ryu is trying to find ANYTHING that could clinch Ryu a win from his multiple non-canon crossovers

>>149689007
shittier Composite Goku vs Composite Superman for those that are too weak willed to continue the battle beyond all battles

With the New Spider-Man movie next year, I think it's time for Peter to come back. I just don't know who he should fight. Got any ideas?

>>149689009
I know we're in the Kickstarter era but wow did we see a budget decrease

>>149689005
I think Shadow vs Mewtwo is definitely wrong. If not in research then definitely in how dogshit that episode is.

Reminder

>>149689013
It was fine.

>>149689012
>2-C bag of old sick
this wiki needs dedicated tardwranglers what the fuck

>>149689034
We don't need Gokek to go 0-4

>>149689013
>I liked the introductory Bill Bixby quote.
Reminds me of the first Goku vs Superman's now deleted previews having a quote from something
Goku's was "Fall Down Seven Times, Stand Up Eight"
I completely forgot what Superman's was because I was rooting for Goku and didn't pay attention
What do you think Godzilla's quote will be?

>>149689067
Something about science or scientists I assume

>>149689019
Korra gets her fucking brains blown out and we see it several times during their explanation so yes

>>149689060
You’ve seen nothing yet.

>>149689082
to be fair fuck Korra

>>149689068
Why are they moving like that

>>149689067
>>149689081
It'll probably be an interview quote about how important the environment is and how we shouldn't bathe our planet in nuclear radiation

>>149688980
Naruto

>>149689081
If it's not a quote from someone who worked on Godzilla itself, it's gonna be Oppenheimer isn't it?
That's fitting but really tone deaf

>>149689007
Composite Ryu scales to Asura so it'd be funny seeing Goku get KO'd SF style

>>149688606
Bomberman vs Dig Dug
Rogue vs Wonder Woman
Maybe Batman vs Spider-Man depending on what equipment Bruce is allowed to get. For Batman vs Iron Man, both Bruce and Tony got EVERYTHING, so you got Univeral level.

>>149689084
the bag of vomit still beats him since she has superior lifting strength meaning she could just pin him down

>>149689089
Why did people not like this fight? I remember anons hating it when it came out for some reason but I rewatched it and it's surprisingly well-animated.

>>149689114
I didn't care for the matchup in general when it came out and most anons who hated it probably felt the same
>The fact that Harley probably wins this fight now from sheer overuse of her character by DC

>>149689114
People just really hated the match-up
The animation was alright (including a dig at Joker vs Sweet Tooth) but it wasn't good enough like Goro vs Machamp

>>149689102
Composite Ryu scales to Six Armed Asura, and not any of the forms after. Composite Akuma scales to Mantra Asura. Both are those are before Mantra gets the Mantra Reactor and even his Base form becomes broken in the final fight.

>>149689114
From what I recall it was mostly because they didn't like the characters in the first place.

>>149689114
>>149689127
>>149689128
>>149689143
I think it's a problem that the animation is very authentic to the characters and their personalities, but said personalities are divisive, so if you don't like the characters it's just going to annoy you.

>>149688606
Luigi vs Tails maybe?

>>149689012
>Standard Equipment: The vomit inside of her bag

>>149689089
Jinx would unironically survive Harley's farts

>>149688461
He has. Some random mook in Gen. Ross' platoon managed to fatally injure Hulk. But this was like, back in the mid 60s.

>See! Hulk broke through manipulation of law!
>Look
>He actually just abused a loophole because Hulk isn't Banner
Why are big 2 fans so disingenuous when it comes to powerscaling?

>>149689134
So Comp. Akuma/Oni is like around star level. Comp. Ryu is like around large planet level but I don’t think Six-Armed Vajra Asura did too much other than make him angry enough to go evil Ryu.

>>149688435
It never did anything precise with that, besides speedrunning it's own evolution.

>>149689190
who said that?

>>149689190
in a week you'll be saying the exact same shit about Godzilla, it's all bunk

pity win banner

The green door makes Hulk literally impossible to destroy. If you kill him, he just comes back instantly at full strength. World Breaker Hulk has no limit on his strength either, so there's nothing anything can do to beat Hulk.

>>149689230
SH-SHUT UP

>>149689230
mmmm pity wins sustain hulk

>>149689233
Godzilla blows up the green door

>>149689160
Has Tails ever gotten a single impressive feat of his own in the games anyways? Poor dude seems to be hardcarried by SA1 stuff and chainscaling

>>149689254
>composite goku loses to this nigga

hulk
lost twice
godzilla
won twice
even if hulk wins, he'd still have half of the wins godzilla does

>>149689233
Broly's wincon was beating up Hulk to the point where he can't immediately respawn
When he finally comes back it'll just be a repeat of before except Broly got some delicious Zenkai buffs since then
The only stretch you can say Hulk wins is if he respawns and Broly is an old man

>>149689256
He can't. It's a manifestation of the One Below All who is omniversal-tier due to scaling with the One Above All.

>>149688307 (OP)
No mention of battleship hulk?

>>149689254
just reminds me of the narcissistic pedophile cutaway from family guy

From now on you can only post Kino

>>149688478
WTF... is it weaker than Shin? Shin's beam went through buildings instantly like a razor, causing them to literally fall to pieces. This looks like it needed to focus on a specific spot to actually penetrate.
Keep in mind both series take place in 'current day' with modern architecture so this isn't a matter of Shin just attacking shittier buildings.

>>149689279
you first, faggot

>>149689279
Which Pinhead are we talking here? The serious one from 1&2 or the stupid cartoony one from 3 onwards?

>>149689271
godzilla got powered up by hulk's gamma blood. meaning he's got access to TOBA

>>149689279
Can you start?

A good part of the Invincible game is Death Battle can rip the models from there for future fights. Or, I dunno, someone wants to make porn of Atom Eve.

>>149689288
That was when Ultima first used his breath. By the time Jet Jaguar was fighting him, his beam cut through buildings like a hot knife through butter, similar to Shin's, except didn't melt the buildings while doing so.

>>149688468
>Mary Sue who only gets to suffer in life

>>149689279
As in, kino match ups or just kino in general?

>>149689233
Retard. The green door is closed which doesn't even matter because the Hulk is still immortal.

>>149689271
Ultima is stronger than The One Below All.

>>149689293
Nta but Inferno is peak Pinhead

>>149689299
KINGtos SWEEP

>>149689307
NOOOOOOOO MARK!
THAT WAS YOUR FUTURE WIFE!!!

>>149689272
It's ogre...

Pajama Sam vs Cailou.

DB gaijins wont let the 2nd biggest face of marvel lose to the face of Japan especially when Hulk has already lost

>>149689323
How? Even if it's literally multiversal, TOBA is literally TOAA in bad mood, so it's going up against a multiversal entity in a more complex multiverse.
But from what I've seen even in the novel interpretation, Ultima still only takes out universes one at a time.

>>149689342
Now I HAVE to buy this game

>>149689362
Is Trazyn vs Braniac still on the table?
Also the one guy I knew in college who I talked about vs debating regarding 40k since he's a fan says he despises 40k wank
I tried showing him to the Spartan vs Space Marine flash game to see if he'd find it funny and he thought it was stupid

>>149689375
He is shitposting. Why are you taking him seriously?

>>149689398
Because this fight even being on a table means someone though to take it seriously.

Hulk is always precisely as strong and smart as the writers need him to be for any given event. Gamma radiation is also a do-anything power these days.

>>149689375
>in a more complex multiverse.
Evidence of that?

Saying Ultima is more powerful than TOBA because Ultima is more "grounded" in actual science and how dimensions work is like saying MacGyver has better scientific feats than Doctor Doofenshmirtz

>>149689410
He's also the strongest and most wise, does nothing wrong, a wholesome chungus.

>>149689427
MacGyver never loses

>>149689312
Complaining about how hard your life is while being handed everything anyway id mary sue 101. Everyone wants their self insert to complain that life is hard to them but also to live a charmed wanked life

>>149689398
>Challenge the status quo
>"No, you can't do that!"
Marvel circlejerk, everyone.

>>149689427
But MacGyver DOES have better scientific feats then Doofenshmirtz. MacGyver was never stopped, Perry has always stopped Doofen.

>>149689160
Luigi wins even harder since he has his own shadow clone now

>>149689375
>How?
The same way Pre-Retcon The Beyonder is stronger than TOAA of course!

>>149689421
>Single marvel universe contains multiple layers and realms.
>TOAA is above all of them.

>Singular Point universes can't be assumed to be any more complex than our own.

>>149689362
Popeye isn't comparative sci-fi though
I see the thumbnail showing Warhammer Space Marines vs Storm Troopers but do they fare any better against Jedi?

>>149689443
He got mindbroken by Patty and Selma

>>149689389
>Trazyn vs Braniac
I hope so, I'd like to see it happen soon.

>>149688331
calling goku an insert strong guy is very disingenuous

>colonel sanders has Cookierun scaling
RONALDBROS…

>>149689233
>no limits fallacy

>>149689476
Yeah Goku's not strong

>>149689462
He never was, even at peak Secret Wars II wank. He capped at beating up the Celestials (which isn't even impressive anymore) and his death, self imposed or not, only released enough energy to create a single universe.

>>149689481
forgot image

>>149689490
Hulk is built on that.

>>149689493
>lifting strength = striking strength
Are the guys on /dbg/ always this stupid?

>>149689497
Ronald wins because he he can force feed his opponents Grimace Shakes.

>>149688892
Madoka’s footrest.

>>149689493
Goku never got any stronger after that either.

>>149689464
>Single marvel universe contains multiple layers and realms.
Can you explain how a universe has "layers"? Or how the realms are within the same universe (which doesn't make any sense)? How is that not just another plane of existence? Or is it just another set of space in another dimension (which would just be like another universe)?

>>149689505
Yeah striking strength is lower

>>149689502
just seems like the saitama wincon OPMfags usually pull to make him beat multiversal beings

>>149689427
Heinz's entire shtick is that he's foiled by a blue platypus
MacGyver has ALWAYS escaped a situation using nearly inexplicable means

>>149689505
Not like their striking is any better

>>149688882
>STILL gets gaped by an anime twink with a drill

https://constantagony0107.blogspot.com/2025/07/hulk-vs-godzilla-infinite-sun7000-blog.html
I'm thinking Godzilla wins.

AI is too dangerous. Now people can just generate porn of the Death Battle loser fucking the winner's girl if they're salty.

>>149689524
No, the two don't correlate. You cannot be this stupid.

>>149689535
>Antifeat to put Gokek at hydrant level

>>149689521
Vegeta confirmed that they'd long ago honed their bodies to their limits so it's true

>>149689389
genuinely, I fucking pray that if 40k ever gets on Death Battle we get literally any character that isn't part of the imperium
It's probably just going to be Titus sadly

>>149689517
Knull gives everyone shoes and ruins your loli feet fetish

>>149689467
I’d like to say the Jedi would put up a good fight. But you have to remember, they’ve mostly faced Stormtroopers, who are notoriously bad in combat. So the Jedi haven’t really been tested against serious, big groups of opponents. So the Space Marines would absolutely dominate them.

>>149689505
They’re irrefutably correlated. If you can’t contract your muscles at enough force to lift a certain weight, that’s also a limit on how much force you can swing an arm with

>>149689522
Really weird question.
Are you literally completely unfamiliar with marvel cosmology?

>>149689549
You can't be more than 100% efficient when striking. Goku's just not strong.

>>149689160
>>149689257
Tails is a chainscaling man. People still have to rely on questionably canon classic lore to give him a super form. DB would probably have Luigi win these days.
As for me personally, it would depend on if we're counting gag feats or not.

>>149689543
back in my day you had to draw that and you gave the loser a tiny dick like that one Thor and Bejita image

>>149689481
Does that compare to basketball scaling?

>>149689521
You're arguing that Goku at the beginning of Boo is as strong as he is now?

>>149689564
>they correlate
No, they don't. You're pulling an appeal to reality, characters can destroy infinite sized realms yet cannot lift them.

>>149689570
Not disproving anything.

>>149688960
>39c
We need to go back

>>149689362
A friend of mine wanted to see 40k vs Transformers
No match-ups in particular

>>149689539
>redditor
DISCARDED!

>>149689539
If the preview next week confirms Ultima ISN'T used, what's gonna happen to the discourse?

>>149689362
>Star Trek listed as a victim
>When Star Trek has the Q who are comparable to the Chaos Gods in power and on demand time travel whilst 40k can only time travel by accident

>>149689571
Does Luigi have Napalm resistance?
But yeah Weegee would def win now, sega have done tails so dirty

All Hulk has to do is get infinitely angry and he has infinite strength.

>>149689571
I mean they literally gave Archie Silver a form he never used in the source material, giving tails a Super form because the classic games are supposed to be in continuity with the current ones doesn't seem as absurd as that.

>>149689114
People didn't care for the matchup or thought it was their "gimmie" for a DC character losing to a non Marvel character and just sacrificing a street tier which isn't what people were aiming for.

>>149689589
Probably shitposting about how Godzilla doesn't need ultima to beat Hulk or pity win

>>149689591
The Q are all smoke and mirrors.

>>149689564
If your point is that lifting strength directly correlates to striking strength, how then can you explain Goku and co. being beyond small building level?

Especially when relative characters have anti-anti feats like in this picrel:

>>149689427
>Ultima is more powerful than TOBA because Ultima is more "grounded" in actual science and how dimensions work
maybe you might begin to understand why I often insist that an average universe like ours is stronger than verses that wank Platonic Forms
>>149689496
>and his death, self imposed or not, only released enough energy to create a single universe.
are you implying death releases energy at all? really? is this the best anti-feat you could have think of? like, superman or vegeta can just die without releasing energy but that says nothing about their peaks.
Dude comes from The Beyond which would be like The Presence coming from DC.

>>149689205
Looking at this makes Kratosura look even more disappointing. Even if you want to have Kratos win at least make it a spectacle like this

>>149689556
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>149689597
How’s he gonna get infinitely angry? His wife and kids got blown up by the aliens and he was only angry enough to stomp around harder than usual

>>149689622
wow, all that mass and it's still below 1000 tons

>>149689522
Because they aren't separate.
For example, every Marvel universe comes with a negative zone, and hell and a limbo minimum. It's a package deal.

>>149689597
Don't characters who are beyond 4D already have a level of infinite strength? It just goes by dimensional tiering after that. There's different sets of infinity, unless you have arguments for an outer to high outer WB Hulk

>>149689362
The term outerversal appeared because warhammers wanted to wank the only thing that has a chance of being multiversal (chaos).

>>149689597
>Godzilla now has an endless food supply

>>149689233
He doesn't come back 'instantly' last I checked. He's been pretty fucked up and needed time to heal up even with green door before

>>149689621
So are the Chaos Gods.
>B-B-B-B-BUT!
Post Khorne’s armor not getting chipped by Skarbrand who is barely planetary at max.

>>149689607
Icesama is STRONG

>>149689629
They originally did. Asura was supposed to destroy the earth but that was super OOC, so DA changed it to them going to another dimension

>>149689627
>are you implying death releases energy at all?
...Yes? Why are you upset about a comic you've never read.

>>149689589
no need to mention the fireman and infinite dimension stuff if they're not using Ultima, it's like how they never bothered to give Doomguy lore shit against Master Chief because he would've won already without it

>>149689659
>They originally did. Asura was supposed to destroy the earth but that was super OOC
These same fuckers had Goku and Superman destroy the Earth in the first battle. Goku destroyed the Earth in the third battle by going Kaioken, and their clash destroyed the Universe.

>>149689566
I am familiar with it. But no one has ever given a satisfactory answer as to how it is "more complex". Everything you said just accounts for more universes. Even if you added all those realms and what-have-you that just adds more space within a universe, nothing "complex" about it.
Marvel has infinite spatial dimensions and DC doesn't as the Beyonder clearly shows.
>>149689496
And then there's this, all that "infinite dimensional" power and it leads to a single universe being made. Maybe because dimensional scaling is faulty perhaps? Even then, a lot of people make the assumption if you affect the universe in Marvel (or DC) you are automatically "multi-dimensional" in scale, without any mention of affecting thinks in a higher dimension. It's quite ridiculous really, equal to saying Spider-Man punching a hole in a wall is actually affecting the wall in a higher dimension as well.

>>149689640
Gotta be ragebait at this point.

>>149689362
They don't compare Warhammer 40k to toonforce shit like Popeye. They put it up against other sci-fi settings

>>149689627
But the Beyond DID release energy when he died.

>>149689293
What about the one from the reboot

>became an AI icon
Who fights Bigfoot?

>>149689589
They're definitely not going to mention Ultima in the preview the same way they didn't get into the Otoko shit for Simon. Ultima is all but guaranteed for Godzilla

>>149689685
They also only pit 40k against lower mid tier sci-fi settings like canon Star Wars and present day Halo factioms whilst constantly avoiding any fights with Star Trek or Halo Forerunners.

>>149689721
>Ultima is all but guaranteed for Godzilla
Unless they think it violates Rule #4

>>149689718
Chupacabra. North vs South.

>>149689599
Thing is, SEGA is really weird about Super Tails/Knuckles.
In Sonic 3 and it's various releases, they do have a Super form (with Origins having a bit of weirdness due to updates)
Mania also has Super Tails.
But Superstars gives him a 'Super Power' form instead, which is explicitly not Super Tails (because Super Sonic gets specifically named as such). And Heroes has something unnamed that some Japanese guides refer to as a Hyper Mode.
And then there's official statements that only Hedgehogs have Super forms.
So, Classic games are canon, but it's unclear if Super/Hyper Tails is canon.

>>149689729
Sam Carter (with prep time and a couple of naquadah generators) could solo 40k.

>>149689659
From what I remember of the original it looked like shit and goofy looking where Kratos just sorta ignores a planet sized thing punching like Kenshiro while being ant sized. I am talking like with the Street Fighter crossover with shit like Asura punching Kratos to the moon or them clashing fists (with Kratos using the hercules fist weapons) and causing a seismic shockwave across the entirety of the moon

>>149689683
This is a very unfortunate reality that fucks up pre-retcon Beyonder wank HARD, but if you pay close attention when reading Secret Wars II, the world 'multiverse' is explicitly used when referring to other realms and dimensions within 616. NOT parallel universes. They show the effects on hell when referring to the Beyonder's power effecting the multiverse.
But sense that term as such a specific meaning now, it's impossible for most people to separate the term from how it's used today.

>>149689721
>Ultima is all but guaranteed for Godzilla

>>149689737
I don't see why it would. Ultima is basically a canonical composite Godzilla

>>149689748
I mean, Mania is. So why wouldn't it be?

>>149689629
Yeah, the episode wasn’t even a fraction of the spectacle of the average AW boss fight. If they were gonna use fanfic Kratos, have him use the blades of Chaos to swing around planets at Destructor Asura or have the Blade of Olympus slice through some stars or some shit.

KINGtos would TEACH Weaku about TRUE strength

>>149688478
Superman would tank that btw

>>149689718
Nessie

>>149689756
Fair, but something could've happen after that like imagine after that Kratos hops on planet to planet fighting asura and destroying more planets
>>149689792
Could he tho?

>>149689768
Why did they even cherrypick American G1 and IDW (which aren't even canon to each other, as confusing as the wikis are about it) when having Megatron fight a Japanese character anyways?

>>149689629
https://youtu.be/rCvottqhTpE?feature=shared
Saw this (Omni-Man vs Kratos) in my recommendations and for what it lacks in terms of model quality and voice acting, it certainly has a lot more impact to it.

>>149689591
>40k can only time travel by accident
Wait really?

>>149689771
1. Isn't that just headcanon?
I could never find a direct source that ALL Godzillas come from Ultima (which raises further questions given a lot of those Godzillas either lose or just die)
2. Ultima is far and away from the common origin story most Godzillas you can reasonably composite into. Even stuff like CC Goku was used with the clause that his history and personality is more or less is the same as canon Goku. For Broly they said Super was their focus but both Z and Super Broly's share the same backstory with just a different end result.

>>149689771
Ultima is a big cloud of red dust beyond spacetime that tries to destroy the universe, and only superficially resembles a giant lizard. It's not even radioactive and barely any of the story focuses on big kaiju rampages and clashes.

It is barely Godzilla in themes, design and concept

>>149689817
The warp is weird. There's one group of astartes who can seemingly do it on command, but they're one of those things GW doesn't really like to talk about.

>>149689564
wrong
at certain points the muscles you worked up so hard will get in the way. this is a fact, Arnold even had to reduce his muscle mass to swing a sword properly

FAGfoot has been captured
KWAB

>>149689821
It honestly is pretty weird there's no implications the archtype is radioactive.
I guess so they could us it to fix things too without things being counterproductive.

>>149689812
They had some bits of Marvel but apparently it was said on the Discord it was because "If we used JG1 people would just ask about Xenoverse for Frieza" that and the research team is genuinely too cheap
Every source they use must be pirated and it's easier to just exclude JG1 rather than comb through all the material, make sure it's properly translated, find a way to make it digestible to normal viewers, and use it for the fight
inb4 but Simon
Was only given the wincon because someone OUTSIDE the research team paid MONEY to hire a professional translator for it
Nobody is spending money for Death Battle research

>>149689840
DBZ uses that as a plot point with Trunks. His big rage monster form during the Cell fight fucked with his mobility and he couldn't even hit Cell. It's why you see characters like Turles or Broly grow in height when they gain muscle mass so it doesn't do the same thing to them.

>>149689821
>>149689818
once again, hulkfags doing mental gymnastics to try and find a win against gayshitta

>>149689768
>Though it is part of an entirely different canon than two entirely separate canons
What did they think they were saying here?

Enough with the laser beams and magical explosions.
Give me a MARTIAL ARTS fight

>>149689854
Isn't Alternity alone completely translated though? That's all you'd really need.

>>149689876
"Martial arts" or actual martial arts? The likes of Kenshiro or Shang Chi would gape just about anyone in a "martial arts" fight because of their hax effects.

>>149689841
>PISStory Channel
Not even Animal Planet level

>>149689885
Alternity is translated
Cloud is translated
Generation Selects is translated, multiple times in fact

If Death Battle waits a couple of weeks, they could theoretically give Godzilla Ultima Getter powers if they're using composite BS, since SRW Y will inevitably tie it to the Getter rays.

>>149689860
>Literally an established rule they have used in previous fights
>"mental gymnastics"

>>149689860
I think hulk wins rather easily regardless of whether Ultima is used. Just that Ultima is completely unlike any other form of Godzilla and can also easily be excluded based on that premise

>>149689927
They're not gonna use SRW the same way they don't use Smash Bros for scaling purposes
Also the animation is done, that shit takes months to finish

>>149689854
>They had some bits of Marvel
I mean if you look to Beast Wars, there's evidence the revised version of American G1 is some sort of amalgam of Sunbow G1 and Marvel G1. But IDW is totally separate either way.

Ask yourself this
If Simon the Digger had an incarnation that was gorillion times outerversal but he was a giant testicle monster that communicated by regurgitating review quotes of of 12 Years a Slave while riding a unicycle that said "Simon the Chinger Changer Nigger Dagger" on it, would that have been included because it's technically "Simon the Digger"?
At some point you gotta declare a line not to cross

>>149689821
>It is barely Godzilla in themes, design and concept
Godzilla is a very flexible concept. Showa Godzilla eventually became more silly and comedic, so it was no longer about an allegory for nuclear warfare.

>>149689899
Didn't Alternity stuff get undone at the end of the story?

>>149689779
Because as I say, Sega is just weird like that.
If the comics (and Mania to a lesser extent) are to be believed, Sonic the Fighters is canon and Espio shows up in that.
Despite that SoJ insist that Classic Espio doesn't exist and forbids him or the other Chaotix from showing up in Classic Era stuff.
Pretty much every appearance of Super Tails after 3 is in very western focused Sonic stuff.
So basically, it's Western Sonic stuff saying Super Tails is canon vs SoJ saying he isn't, but Tails could maybe create a bootleg not quite super form.

>>149689779
Cause the most recent game (Superstars) gimped Tails and Knuckles out of a superformand explicitly says they only get “superpowers” aka sparkles around them instead of “Sonic became Super Sonic” or whatevs

I think it’s shit and only done to wank off Sonic, but that is a legitimate reason people are iffy about giving Tails/Knuckles superforms in db, since most players are under the impression they can’t do it anymore

>>149689960
Simon has a tranny boyfriend so it's really not that much different

>>149689815
This one was pretty good from a choreography standpoint while having Kratos around his actual portrayal.

>>149689817
Its weird and depends on what part of 40k you go into. Warp doesn't follow the rules of physics so going through it can lead to time fuckery sometimes or other weird shit. That or you get in the War of Heaven / Dark Age of Technology stuff where they have all that kind of bullshit tech hax

>>149689978
A good comic fan wouldn't use that word as an insult.

>>149689962
Yeah but most Godzillas that can be reasonably composited still fall under
>Ancient amphibious beast
>Mutated by atomic tests
>Breathes atomic radiation
Stuff like Godzilla in Hell STILL fits under that logic and is still fundamentally the same character
Even Lara Croft who does have various origins is still the same archetype in the end no matter what
Ultima doesn't have that (and neither does Earth)

>>149689997
>t. trans "woman" in gotham with a weapon
Modern capeshit and modern shitnen are both terrible.

>>149689939
I think you could say the same thing about Hulk though. He's hardly a commentary on the usage of nuclear weapons these days. Hell, Ewing swaps it for Hulk being a commentary on the destructive impulses of creators.

>>149689962
Godzilla has been a metaphor for either nuclear war or the American military. Showa was portrayed as more positive because the US sent massive amounts of aid to Japan.

Ultima has nothing at all to do with Godzilla's initial concept or the growth of that concept, it's just Godzilla but Cthulhu

>>149689854
>Every source they use must be pirated and it's easier to just exclude JG1 rather than comb through all the material, make sure it's properly translated,
Doesn't Dreamwave/Funpub canon have shit like multiversal Unicron and puts the Unicron Trilogy (and everything else they could think of) into one canon anyways? And that was published in English first.

>Reeves vs Welling vs Caville vs Routh vs Hoechlin vs Corenswet
Who wins the live action Superman Battle Royale?

>>149690038
They used Unicron Singularity for his fight even if it's been undone
It didn't matter because
>Haha Ultimate Nullifier goes brrrrrrr

>>149690022
>but Cthulhu
Despite how people hype it up, it's much more like a hard science threat to the universe, and has a lot more roots in quantum physics than Lovecraft.

>>149690021
The difference is that Hulk is still the same Hulk from Marvel comic canon even if his themes have changed over time. And even Devil Hulk is very much the strongest there is and a big angry radioactive rage monster that gets stronger when he gets madder.

Singular Point is a different canon entirely that basically plasters the Godzilla name on a Stephen Baxter work.

>>149689876
Problem with that was Torrian was the only one who could do hand to hand choregraphy properly (see Ryu vs Jin or All Might vs Might Guy). Without him, they're lost (see Akuma vs Shao Khan). They could hire people for live action like with Nightinwg vs Dardevil, and Winter Soldier vs Red Hood, but that costs a lot of money.

>>149690043
Caville seems most likely. Maybe Welling if we count the Smallville comic continuation thing. Reeves could pull off a timehax though, so he could win.

>>149689988
Also battle damage that isn't catastrophic limb loss is nice to see.

Testicle monster Simon the Digger still solos DC

>>149690043
Reeves is the most bullshit, he wins

>>149690080
>KWABroh

>>149690067
Is there any reason they can't just commission him for 1 fight?

>>149690043
Welling busted a galaxy in the comics, i give it to him

>>149690050
Right, but I mean, it's weird to pretend they had to just use American G1 for Megatron when even if you're locked to English language stuff, there's higher scaling available.
Hell it doesn't even make sense to include American G1 and IDW together if you're being selective.

>>149690106
Anon that's literally what they did for the Kickstarter and it's probably gonna be Shulk vs Lightning since that was his most wanted

>>149689965
Does it matter?

>>149690097
Reeves is funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFakgB1tQGs

FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRKKKKKKKKKKK

>>149690080
>KWABuma

>>149690139
My hero KINGlock is... SO STRONG!!!!!!!!!

>>149690118
It's like with TMNT
There's no "default" option so the best you can get is
>Are these the "same character/archetype"
Similar origins or similar end results or fundamentally still the same being
If Cybermen were used in Death Battle they'd use both origins (not that it matters since they mingled at some point IIRC) because it's basically convergent evolution.

>>149690067
Speaking of Hand to Hand, Goku is suppose to be an expert martial artist, but you don't really that when reading the manga past early Dragon Ball. Most of the aliens don't have Earth martial arts skill, and yet they still keep up in hand to hand like Freeza whose gimmick was that he had huge potential but never ever trained at all. But that's not just Dragon Ball. In comics, guys like Captain America are suppose to experts at hand to hand, you aren't seeing properly Choreographed fight outside his movies, and especially not in comics.

>>149689854
I don't think JG1 is really comparable to Xenoverse/Heroes.
>>149689965
There have been plenty of characters who gave up/lost a majority/all of their powers by the end of the story, but DB just gave them everything.

>>149689970
>Pretty much every appearance of Super Tails after 3 is in very western focused Sonic stuff.
I mean Silver was only brought back into canon (since 06 undoes itself) though Rivals, which literally didn't get released in Japan, so I don't see why that matters.

>>149690118
I wish they'd give us a proper Transformers/Brave Series crossover. The closest they've came to acknowledging the connection in official materials is a small mention in some guidebook or something. It's not like Transformers is shy about that sort of crossover either, they had that Mazinger crossover a while ago.
Hell, Exkaiser is basically Victory 2.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cajc3d081Y4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkFoLL0QmFQ

>>149690139
>The door in question

>>149690078
Doesn't Caville Cap at Continental?

>>149690179
Yeah, but wasn't Rivals actually written in Japan.
(through weirdly, the official timeline doesn't reference it, so I dunno, maybe officially Silver just met everyone offscreen)

Gun to the head. What would it be kratos vs asura weeb, and western version?

>>149690160
That's such an obtuse logic to apply to Transformers, when Transformers literally has two canons where pretty much everything happened in the same continuity anyways though.

>>149690196
K, B, C

>>149690160
But JG1 is just an expansion of Sunbow.
It literally started as a dub and then got a bunch of extra stories since it was the 'default' continuity over there.

>>149690218
Hey man, they've only used it four times
First time was Season 1 where they got Kiss Players of all things wrong
Second time was a murder stomp no matter what
Third time was when the compositing really got put into question
Fourth time it didn't matter cause universal singularity logic

>>149690173
Sometimes Death Battle gives people at their peak before said power lost like Deku because armored Deku is featless unless we gave him armored All Might's feats for scaling. With Batman, he normally doesn't have his super broken shit like Hellbat when on a normal job, but they gave him everything because they were also giving Iron Man everything. Thanos probably shouldn't be given Infinite Gems, but it wouldn't change the outcome when fighting True Darkeid.

>>149690065
I mean yeah, I get that. Though my pedantic side would argue that technically 616 Hulk is two characters because of the advancement from the 6th Cosmos to the 7th following all the stuff with the Incursions.
Regardless I've had more and more of a bugbear regarding Marvel/DC type comic continuity and canonicity being more stifling than they are constructive. That's not here nor there though.
I do agree that Ultima is weird to pull as a Godzilla in terms of being comparable with other Godzillas. I just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Metal doors? FEATSura victim.

>>149690208
if you're going to type in English at least make it legible

>>149690226
Not trying to argue if JG1 was valid to exclude or not
It's not like JG1 Megatron is Godzilla Ultima or Testicle Monster Simon
Just trying to piece together how Death Battle tries to maintain Rule #4 in spite of everything

>>149690226
G1 is weird. Toei worked on it. It was one of the first animated things Masami Obari worked on too.

>>149690242
Not him but with compositing Ultima, it's like why is Ultima more "valid" than say Godzilla Earth which is likely NOT gonna be considered for obvious reasons
Is it because Ultima is Godzilla's most powerful incarnation?

>>149690173
Cloud is more comparable to Xenoverse

Is he stronger than Superman?

>>149690267
Someone on /m/ wanted to piece together a chart of how deep G1 Transformers goes regarding talent from both the East and West

>>149690289
Yes.

>>149690298
Is he stronger than Black Superman?

>>149690289
I think Superman is stronger, but Spawn could get some wins against him because magic abilities. Depending on who is righting, Superman either has no special defense against magic, or is just straight up weak to it in general which is why Clark hates it.

>>149690305
No, that guy's too strong

>>149690289
Equal.

>>149690121
In terms of power ups? I would personally say so, since it is something that he doesn't have at the end of the Alternity plot.

>>149690289
He beat Kratos when tired, no magic, nerfed, lowballed, hungry, holding back, and hypothetical downscale to mountain level. He's outerversal minimum

>>149690289
>Stronger?
Nah
>More Hax?
Probably

>>149689591
true
>>149689817
maybe

>>149689690
>He is so strong his death releases some of his powers
duh

>>149690289
Spawn is usually street tier,with magic boosting him to higher levels but it isn't enough to beat Superman unless he's extremely jobbing.>>149690289

>>149690289
Spawn would gape Superman.

>>149689019
probably

>>149689655
>Post Khorne’s armor not getting chipped by Skarbrand who is barely planetary at max.
anon, Khorne won that fight with a single blow and didn't suffer any injuries.

>>149689019
Since the old seasons.

>>149690382
… which doesn’t change the fact that a “multiversal” god’s armor could be damaged by a barely planetary dude.

>>149688606
Goku vs Superman

>>149690382
>Khorne won
irrelevant
we can scale his armor's durability based on Skarbrand's feat

What's stopping Godzilla from just absorbing the gamma radiation? What would be their justification for not allowing that when we see him do that in the comics?

>>149690407
I'm shocked no one posted Widowmaker vs black widow at this point for the ryona joke

>>149690408
>>149690414 (Faggot)
It's armor. Post Q and Chaos Gods actually losing fights

>>149690428
Can't Hulk also absorb radiation?
That just makes it a zero-sum thing.

>>149690344
>some of
It was literally the totality of the Beyonder's power.
You fuckers seriously do not read comics.

>>149690446
so what is it just gonna be a 69 of radiation absorbing

>>149690440
>It's armor
and because it is armor, we can agree that it has more durability than Khorne.

>>149690428
Nothing. And Nothing's stopped Hulk from absorbing nuclear radiation.

>>149690428
Doesn't he absorb infinite energy in Final Wars?

>Chaos Gods in Age of Sigmar and 40k are confirmed to be the same by GW
>Age of Sigmar Slaanesh got captured and weakened by a few Elves

I love you guys but you are faggots

>>149690456
I swear if this comes down to who can suck the other off harder

WILL COMPOSITE GOJI INCLUDE THE MARVEL VERSION?

I hate you guys and you are faggots

>>149690498
We dont know
It was used in Godzilla vs Gamera but they've changed their policy since

I hate you guys and you are straight

>>149690454
>posts non-sequitur claim from something completely unrelated
>has the gall to call it "literally" when everyone can read it and realize there is no such adverb as totality.
reading comprehension is not your forte, dude.
stop misinforming anons and post the full pageS

>>149690466
>I knew that tuna eating bastard was no good
holy kek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNGU5JsXfIM

>>149690498
Honestly since he's fighting Hulk it'd be fitting

>>149690463
then why did Khorne take no damage in his fight? it's because it doesn't matter and the entire point of the fight is to show how futile the efforts were

I wanted to say i love you guys but you guys are niggers but that’s racist now

>>149690446
>>149690456
>>149690487
I was saying this weeks ago, and even one of the tripfags basically pointed out how this becomes a TOBA/Ultima puppet fight at best which is fucking gay

>>149690529
>then why did Khorne take no damage in his fight?
because the armor took the damage for him, duh. that's what armors are for.

Godzilla chainscales to Kratos

>>149690542
Ultima is still Godzilla even if it's some abstract version of it
TOBA is just marvel god's evil alter ego getting uppity

I love you guys and i am straight

>>149690512
Absolutely insane. Read the fucking comic or fuck off.

>>149690407
>Her screams and groans as her death closes in.
Poor babe.
https://files.catbox.moe/i2g9xh.mp3

>>149690501
>>149690509
now kiss
>>149690553
>godzilla leeches off the ultimate scalingsissy to get a win
not surprising

I love the cuckporn, homosexuality, rape, and dishonest debates here

How hard would it be to throw Gojo into space without infinity getting in the way?

>>149690573
apparently it's why people keep coming back considering there's no real discussion to be had
literally all we're doing is just waiting for DB to announce which hardgay versions of the two hardgay opponents in this hardgay 69 matchup they'll be using

>>149690512
>non-sequitur claim from something completely unrelated
You okay?
That's literally how the Beyond dies.

Kratongle blip Deathy Bloop. Vorkto is victorang.

You know, this is why I prefer just sticking to Heisei or Showa for my Godzilla fanfic fights.

How's the fight looking if we ignore TOBA and true form Ultima silliness?
I know Godzilla should be able to tank black holes at minimum.

>>149690273
I think it is ultimately most because Godzilla just isn't at all competitive with Hulk in modern day powerscaling. Ultima is the only thing that brings him to that same degree, though it means as a result that Ultima is likely stronger.
Death Battle creates these scenarios where they end up forced to pick X and Y versions to maintain entertainment value, but the escalation of tiers across the entire community has caused what was perhaps once reasonable to totally meltdown into an arms race.

KINGtos

CHADtos

>>149690607
>>149690273
You could probably headcanon your way into saying that all versions of Godzilla were created as avatars of Ultima's true form.

WEAKtos

>>149690604
Hulk gets outclassed in every stat except speed.
Like mouse vs elephant.

>>149690593
SCHIZOtos…

I am a creep. I am a weirdo. What the hell am I doing here?

>>149690577
Assuming you can't get past limitless for whatever reason you'd have to entrap him in one area somehow and then launch whatever he's standing on into space

>>149690467
Seems that magic is better at handling Chaos than psykers are.

>>149690604
Hulk wins without irony because of modern Hulk feats and scaling

>>149690573
/dbg/... Friends...

TEACHtos

>>149690587
I like the Atlantic morning time frame because that's when more honest discussion happens. I've got a topic of discussion when we get there again.

>>149688606
Shadow vs Vegeta

Kratos lost to Spawn.

>>149690660
...in a fanfiction battle, where ignoring statements is a valid tactic

>>149690604
Marvel has decades of retarded insane shit piling up that'd probably outdo anything Goji has, main issue for Goji is that he's always been very movie focused so his content only piles up slowly in comparison and the general Godzilla setting is always pretty grounded outside of anime, comics or manga generally. I think the comics he's been getting are a more recent phenomenon after they revived the brand for the umpteenth time with the Monsterverse stuff.

>>149690407
Wasn't Bayo's VA in this episode Ben Singer's GF?

>>149690592
And to verify, because the tripfag seems tremendously confused. While the Beyonder is testing out his attempts to be reborn, he is just a regular person before he absorbs his power contained within the machine. Mephisto even calls the power within the machine the Beyonder's "omnipotence".
So yeah, we are putting this idea that 'some of the Beyonder's power' was released to rest.

>>149690658
It actually shifts even further out of favor for Shadow because Vegeta having Forced Spirit Fission means that Shadow's superform would get depowered.

>>149690672
Isn't she his ex?

>>149690660
>>149690666 (Hercule)
Name a single Kratos wincon

>>149690573
Me...

>>149690688
Also, back then Shadow could've gotten Archie scaling.

>>149690672
All I know is that she's freaking Gangle.

>>149690690
5 dimensional concept manipulation + him resisting soul hax with Hades and all

>>149690696
Archie Sonic can literally vibrate through matter like the Flash, he could just reach into Vegeta's chest and crush his heart

>>149690670
Honestly, Godzilla's setting is a lot less grounded than some people realize. Even beyond the various alien species that try to take over the Earth, we have time travel, genetic splicing, advanced tech, etc. Obvious not that crazy, but the JSDF in the movies is miles above any modern military.

So basically
>Already confirmed
Showa
Heisei
Minus One
Legendary

>Safe bets
Dark Horse
IDW
2000
vs. Megaguirus
Kiryu Duology
Final Wars

>Used before, unsure now
GMK
Marvel (616)

>Coin toss (only because how much it eats up discussion)
Ultima

>No chance in Hell
Tristar
Earth
Godzilla Destroys the Marvel Universe (and the previous non-616 crossovers)
Various other crossovers (Super Robot Wars, MMPR, etc)

>Depends on if they get a hold on scans/good translations or not
Japan Only Manga

What am I missing?

>>149690707
>5 dimensional concept manipulation
Literally what?
>him resisting soul hax with Hades and all
Spawn's is better

>>149690568
>>149690672
Nepo-hire or not, she did well as her.

>>149690604
Thor scaling goes brrrrr

>>149690565
>Absolutely insane
not an argument.
>Read the fucking comic
you are the one claiming shit about what the beyonder does and failing to deliver proof.

that device is making a beyonder. anyone with half a brain understands that what the new beyonder can do has nothing to do with what the machine did or had. It is simply not relevant to the beyonder's death

>>149690720
Godzilla in Hell
Godziban
Video game stuff (Super Godzilla)

>>149690512
>>has the gall to call it "literally" when everyone can read it and realize there is no such adverb as totality.
Don't look now, champ...

>>149690714
Archie Sonic getting FRAUDCHECKED by Wally is still one of my favorite moments

>>149690289
Superman has better stats but Spawn has better hax that could beat him while being no slouch in the stats department himself.

>>149690741
>Godzilla in Hell
Is covered by IDW and even then it's only a game changer if they took into account one of the multiple writer's interpretations at face value

>>149690722
Nah it's a real thing. Yggdrisal being above space and time makes Kratos 5D, there's a debate for him having concept manipulation with him releasing hope and killing the sisters of fate. I'm partly shitposting but it's legit

Invincible beat Spawn

>>149690714
He's never used it offensively and had to focus in order to use it traversively.

>>149690714
No he couldn’t, because the 1 time Archie Sonic ever did that he could barely do it at all, and passed out after doing it for only 1 second to pass through a wall, let alone do fancy tricks like teleporting organs at will like Flash does

>>149690512
>>149690746
lmao

>>149690756
1. We don't know how powerful Spawn was at the moment, he could have just fled to avoid his timer running out
2. The Invincible War isn't meant to be taken seriously, that's how we get planet level Madman
3. That wasn't even Al Simmons

>>149690752
Ah, I forgot what publishing company did that.
I feel like they would take the statement at face value, but we'll just have to wait and see.
I assume that IDW also covers Rage Across Time, where he killed the Greek gods?

>>149690604
Kratos author statements 2

>>149690756
Invincible beats Kratos.

>>149690760
He also used it once to escape Robotnik's plaidmantium cape.

>>149690760
Mind you this was also base sonic

>>149690748
Nah they kinda bullshitted him ignoring genesis wave and it was still super close. DC cosmology as a whole getting fraud checked by Simon was hilarious though

>>149690756
https://youtu.be/imEDl26AvAE?si=8oP4edPrpm4reLl4

>>149690781
...off, then KINGtos shows Invincible his Spartan customs

>>149690784
Super Sonic doesn’t give him extra skills or finesse last i checked
Speed isn’t the barrier, his inability to do it right is the barrier

So Hulk loses then, what's next?

>>149690683
>'some of the Beyonder's power' was released to rest.
no it doesn't, you moron. you are trying to convince us that the beyonder's ability to rescind and regain his powers has anything to do with the way his powers unleash upon death.

>>149690604
Depends on what you actually give Godzilla. If you want you can scale him to Odinforce Thor

>>149690512
>>149690746
How do tripfags cope with this kind of embarrassment?

Who would MY HERO support?

>>149690773
>statement at face value
The problem is that Godzilla in Hell had multiple writers who did their own issue forming a narrative
For all we know those other writers could've disagreed
>I assume that IDW also covers Rage Across Time, where he killed the Greek gods?
Yep
Did the Greek Pantheon have any notable feats there?
Cause pantheons aren't always made equal even if it's the same pantheon depicted

>>149690807
Kratos

>>149690798
Tripfag, the power does not release cause he dies, it releases cause the chamber containing his everything shatters while he is incubating, thus killing him. You're conflating the cause of his death and the result of his death.

>>149690785
How can you say Wally's laundry list of feats is "super close" but then say Simon's 12D statement is somehow completely valid

>>149690788
It's 1-1 then, so what? I beat his sorry ass won't run it back

Why can't Vegeta do cool speedster stuff? Is he too slow?

It's kinda fucked up when you think about, the Archie Sonic we've been following since Issue 0 just slowly underwent a death of personality as his old memories were slowly replaced by the New 252 Sonic's memories.

Post your hero actually being +3 dimensional without statement fagging

>>149690785
Super Genesis Wave should be ignored. There's nothing suggesting it is something that can be invoked out of pocket since both times it was Sonic inversing a Chaos Energy frequency (in a setting where the Chaos Force is a universal underlying concept) instead of warping reality from a base point.

>>149690592
like this right here is the beyonder unleashing energy. it didn't cause the destruction of the marvel verse >>149690454
what sensible conclusions can we reach? that statements are bullshit? that makes both sides of the debate wrong.
or that the beyonder's death only released some of his powers? that's more reasonable and doesn't contradict anything.

>>149690857
Xeeleebros, we don't have this problem.

>>149690843
No I mean like within the episode like how I think Wiz (probably reflection to Ben opinion) thought Archie Sonic had it. With Simon and Kyle Simon ended up sweeping completely.

>>149690857
Just look up a picture of Kratos

>>149690856
That’s what happens to everyone irl, you just don’t notice it

>>149690856
To a point, but unlike everyone else in his setting he got to maintain a continuity of self.

>>149690856
You see, when Loisel wrote something like that it was horrifying but when Archie Sonic does the same thing it gets swept harder than the GS Ball

>>149690880
oh, my mistake

>>149690893
Crocodiles > Gorillas

>>149690856
What happened

>>149690860
All you had to do was read this page and you wouldn't have made a fool out of yourself like this.

>>149690893
If a Wolverine can a Big Iguana can

>>149690890
Well it doesn't help matters that it was legally mandated rather than creatively inspired.

>>149690795
OH NO!
SURELY HE WON'T GO
0 - 4!

>>149690899
Crocodile scales to Super Sonic whereas gorilla scales to the Hulk
I think gorilla takes it

Does your HERO prefer Goku or Superman?

>>149690905
Basically the first issue of the post reboot has Sonic say he still has memories of the previous universe and then he also transfers them via touch, but after that point they never mention it again (like without consideration for their friends who are technically dead).

>>149690927
My hero has 400IQ and thus prefers Kratos

>>149690927
Superman

>>149690948
What a fucking slut. Could never be MY hero

>>149690717
Yeah that much is true, but I meant it more like "the setting really never goes beyond planetary scales" too often. Only Heisei technically does and it's mostly cause of Spacegodzilla having whacky statements. In general, the movie series don't have too much powercreep because they were either written stupidly to appeal to 60s/70s kids (most of Showa) or they were too focused on the scifi lean (Heisei), or were one-offs (most of Millennium), though Heisei again kind of slips into that toward the end, but stops before it gets really crazy in my opinion.
It's not like it's Marvel, like if they decided to establish a cosmology that every Godzilla film regardless of continuity takes place in with higher gods and shit. At most you get ayys, other planets and time machines.

JAPAN SHIN SUPERHERO UNIVERSE ASSEMBLE!!!!!

>>149690807
>Hulk is backed by TOBA, who is TOAA's rage
>Godzilla canonically goes to Heaven
Tough call...

Name ONE character that wouldn't voluntarily take it up the butt from Ivan.

>>149690842
>containing his everything shatters while he is incubating
we can see that the energies come from the baby. that's what those impact lines are for
second, that device no longer has everything. some of that energy is in the baby
>>149690907
as this page demostrates.
The Beyonder's totality includes his "human" form.
like you can take the baby out from that device and guess what? claiming that that device has the beyonder's power would still be a correct claim alas it still wouldn't have the totality of the beyonder.
I don't know why this is confusing to you

Lex "Dr.Gero victim" Luthor was a pretty fun villain for the superman movie

>>149690913
>>149690856
https://youtu.be/k4WBP_ztYaI?feature=shared&t=683
I thought the fan dub doing this was a nice touch

>>149690860
You're wording it like you're not aware the only reason the universe wasn't destroyed was because Molecule Man redirected the energy back to The Beyond. Anon is right, you just didn't read the comic.

>>149690969
Not quite. TOAA spawned TOBA by being angry once. TOAA doesn't like TOBA and seals it away.

>>149690970
Superman.

>>149690636
that doesn't make sense. if you put him into a container and move it, the inside of the container will just try to push against him in the same way you hand would. either it won't move or it will break.

>>149690973
But the Beyonder baby IS in the machine?
You haven't made a point.

>>149690948
DAMN IT LEX HOW MANY MONKEYS DO YOU HAVE

>current Hulk scales above an amped Galactus even without TOBA shit
Zilla is so cooked holy fuck.

>>149690626
There's one problem
If Godzilla is always an avatar for Ultima (who wants to destroy universes) why did they fail?
There are their red mists?
Why did they job to shit like Mothra larvae?

>>149690994
He could have transcended fiction and broke out at any time. Once Koslov exposed him to the pleasures of the prostate, he became addicted until Batman snapped him out of it.

>>149691015
>Hulk does not scale to Multi-Eternity. The key difference is that Multi-Eternity was directly chained by the First Firmament himself, while Hulk was restrained by chains merely made from a fragment or essence of the First Firmament forged by the Eldest. At best, this suggests Hulk withstood a minor portion of the First Firmament’s power, which it's residual energy caused the Omniversal Flood that affected the Multiverse. Not to mention, the First Firmament only chained a weakened version of Eternity by taking advantage of the moment when he had just been reborn as the 8th Cosmos. Still very powerful, but nowhere near Multi-Eternity.

https://constantagony0107.blogspot.com/2025/07/hulk-vs-godzilla-infinite-sun7000-blog.html

>>149690889
Eh, Sonic, Tails and Eggman all said that the old memories were hazy and slowly vanishing, eventually to be fully subsumed by the new continuity versions of themselves.

>>149691016
*Where are their red mists?

>>149691023
>He could have transcended fiction and broke out at any time.
Literally not possible because bad writing transcends all fictional character motivations

>>149690973
Beyonders totality = energy + baby.
Both the baby and his energy are in the same capsule when it shatters, so Molecule Man has to redirect all that to the Beyond so the universe isn't destroyed (this causes a big bang).
You seem to be the only one who is confused.

>>149690973
it's okay to admit you were wrong, it's just an anonymous pos-
>tripfag
Oh, shit. Uhhh, good luck?

>>149690467
Chaos exists outside of time and space and only manifests within any given space and time based on what is currently present in that univers (that's why you don't see Chaos gods repsonsible for emotions humans and human-like elfs/orcs/whatever don't feel).

Status of those manifestations is independant of eachother, since the univers they're in determins them

>>149691032
Quit linking that retarded Redditor blog. Everyone has collectively shat on it.

>>149690466
Oh yeah I found it, though it's never stated to be infinite energy, we only get a visual tell. Keizer Ghidorah supposedly scales above the other Ghidorah's at least based on statements, before the Monsterverse movies came out.

>>149691089
>The novel is badly translated here cause I say so
If it's so poorly translated provide a better translation

>>149690985
I believe we've been discussing the beyonder's power output >>149689496
with anon claiming it's not a big deal, and me asking anon to show me why he thinks that.

>>149691133
And? Do you need your ass wiped too?

>>149691149
what?

>>149691094
I don't think this matters since Final Wars Godzilla is rarely the core of these discussions but... is receiving a buff really a feat?

>>149691167
>rarely the core of these discussions
Remember when Final Wars was considered the most powerful Godzilla (though I think Heisei was always stronger)?
Fun times

I love how capetards always build their characters up to be these unbeatable godlike entities whenever they appear on DB. The next time a writer decides Hulk should get Worf'd by a low/mid-level enemy in the comics will be funny.

>>149691180
I do actually, but that was before Space Godzilla scaling wank, so Heisei actually got retroactively wanked beyond FW levels after the fact (despite already existing).

>>149691167
It's just an absorption feat, but I was just trying to go over what I recalled.

>>149691201
Does Godzilla manga (ones we can actually read) have any notable feats past Spacegodzilla illuminating the universe (probably hyperbole)?

>>149691128
Fan translations are stupid to use, hence why no one does it. Secondly, you can go watch Singular Point and see how utterly lame Ultima is. He’s so slow and weak that he makes Shin look good.

>>149691213
I don't know if it even counts as an absorption feat. The MC guy realizes he has Kaizer powers so he decides to amp Godzilla.

>>149691227
>Fan translations are stupid to use,
What if the official translation is the wrong one though?

>>149691089
NTA, but I haven't seen anyone actually refute the arguments in it beyond the "Ultima is a better representation of an outerversal god" thing

>>149691227
>Fan translations are stupid to use, hence why no one does it.
When there's no other option it works best and there are plenty of times where fan translations are MORE accurate to the source material than official ones
Even in Goku vs Superman 1 they shot down shit like Instant Transmission being lightspeed

>>149691201
>I do actually, but that was before Space Godzilla scaling wank, so Heisei actually got retroactively wanked beyond FW levels after the fact (despite already existing).
Supposedly Keizer Ghidorah is the "strongest ghidorah" (i've only seen it talked about as a statement so don't quote me) which if given would make FW Godzilla scale into the same ballpark at least.
>>149691229
Not absorb as in steal power, but in capacity was what I was thinking. But it's not really easy to apply either, all you have to go off of are visuals.

>>149690428
Anon, you do realize one of hulks recurring villains is called absorbing man, right? There’s going to be a moment that suggest that Hulk has better absorption and resistance to it.

>>149691227
>How utterly lame Singular Point Goji is
But he was only beaten by a robot transcending time and solving its own impossible paradox?

>>149691255
>statement
Statements like that are laughable
Remember when Infinite was Sonic's "greatest foe"?

>>149691201
>but that was before Space Godzilla scaling wank
wasn't Space Godzilla and Mecha Godzilla planned for Final Wars? if so, lol just imagine

>>149691262
I'm looking forward to seeing how SRW handles that. What they've shown of Jet Jaguar so far puts it firmly in the Methuss-tier stat/weapon-wise. It'll be funny if it suddenly becomes a Mazinkaiser-tier unit after the SP finale event.

>>149691270
lmao what the fuck I thought she just got her neck snapped

>>149689019
>>149690429
You guys realize this is straight up guro right. Ryona is explicitly not gore or fatal.

>>149691270
>black widow steps on widowmaker's massive ass
this isn't even barely disguised, this is blatantly the animator's fetish

>>149691245
No one is going to bother making an essay debunking a blog made by a low IQ Redditor that is wanking AVATAR Ultima to Hyperversal. Literally just watching Singular Point debunks that entire blog as nothing but insane wank from a zillatard.

>>149691285
It's a garotte wire

>>149691270
>That ass belongs to Mother Russia Frenchie

>>149691290
i was going to say you could post outright guro sfm porn and be unable to tell the difference

>>149691262
City block tier robot lmao

>>149691298
It seems like a lot of people didn't even watch or understand Singular Point, though

>>149691258
Worth noting that Absorbing Man needed a temporary Red Hulk buff to absorb faster than Devil Hulk's output... and It still ended with him like this.

>>149691265
If I have to be fair I don't think any of the Ghidorahs prior to FW ever survived the insane level of explody nonsense (as Monster X, mainly) that Keizer did before it got blown the fuck out. At least not in the movies, the statement is probably centered on the movies since you can't expect every Godzilla director to get intimiate with powerscaling. If it can best the Godzilla that casually ragdolls every other monster in the movie like its a slapstick cartoon almost it's probably pretty strong, on-screen wise, since that rarely even happened in Heisei comparably.

>>149691306
That city block robot has outerveromnstivance haxes, atleast going by DB new found kin toward "muh cardinals" and dimension.

>>149691313
Capetards are too busy reading about Superboy and his gay lover.

>DB threads are fastest they’ve been since GvS3
Giga dime drawers

>>149691330
>reading about Superboy and his gay lover.
lol, no ome believes that
batman is where the money is at

What happens if Breaker-Apart Hulk just destroys the entire Godzilla multiverse and every connected multiverse?

>>149691262
That's not what happens.
The AI sends itself back to an earlier version of Jet Jaguar, which had more complete information on manipulating the red dust the way the Orthogonal Diagonalizer did ( thus allowing it to grow and turn the dust into blue crystals). It didn't solve a paradox, and It seems like information was the only thing it could actually send back.

>>149691362
He can't do that
>but the crossroads
Only happened because he was at the crossroad to begin with

>>149691316
Oh yeah, here it is.

>>149691362
We make sure that doesn't happen by pointing out that's not technically the Hulk.

>>149691381
Breaker-Apart Hulk is infinite multiverses-tier.

>>149691362
>What happens if Breaker-Apart Hulk just [does something he can't do]?

>>149691381
He's not talking about the cross-roads, he's talking about the version of the Hulk from after TOBA took him over and made him the next firament's Galactus.

>>149691404
He canonically destroyed infinite multiverses in the 9th cosmos.

>>149691390
>straight up just scales above spacegodzilla and destroyah even with the wank

>>149690973
Why dig your heels in like this? It just makes it look worse.

>>149691406
I don't think they'd do that
It's less Zarathos popping out of Ghost Rider and more if Cytorrak showed up to help Juggernaut

>Character has strengths that extend beyond punching things really hard
>Power scalers can't comprehend it
Is this why they just have brawler characters become immune to hax?

>>149691390
That doesn't really mean much if it's just talking about the continuity in the movie. I mean, we knew that.

>>149691244
Nintendo Treehouse staff needs to be fired
t. Fire Emblem fan.

>>149691434
>It's less Zarathos popping out of Ghost Rider and more if Cytorrak showed up to help Juggernaut
I don't really understand why these examples have different rulings.

>>149691429
i like surfing pilot-waves
>>149691459
>Fire Emblem fan.
oh yeah? tell me your opinions about engage

>>149691434
>he says like as if we didn’t just have AFO show up to save Shiggy from Mahito

>Lucifer Morningstar (DC)
>High 1-A
>Kills featherine
I didn't know this guy existed until recently.

>>149691461
Zarathos is an actual part of Ghost Rider
Juggernaut is just drawing power from Cytorrak
If Juggernaut dies, Cytorrak isn't gonna give a shit

Couldn't Hulk just bust out a personality stronger than World Breaker Hulk if he wanted to? Theoretically, nothing can ever beat Hulk because of this and his immortality. Even being like Lucifer Morningstar or the Living Tribunal would get smashed.

FeatSISSIES live in FEAR of the statementCHADS

>>149691471
Because AFO is literally inside Shiggy

>>149691468
Third worst translation of the series after Fates and Three Houses.
If you mean overall it's alright but there are better and worse, looking at you Radiant Dawn.

>>149691472
Original comic run is pretty great. Quality goes down a bit after they tried to retool it and they started calling God "The Presence" though.

>>149691473
Ghost Rider has literally died and Zarathos has persisted.

>>149691472
He's been in the battleboarding/power scaling community for decades man.

>>149691442
Eh, I think it being mentioned in the same sentence as "the last monster in the entire japanese series" feels weird. But eh, it's not that relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA0X4SliFJI
NOT EVEN WALL LEVEL

>>149691468
NTA but Thracia is kino amd mogs everything, never played engage

>>149691490
Could be worse. Imagine being a SRW fan and having to deal with Moon Dwellers' SEA ESL nonsense script.

>>149691436
Yup. Itachi from Naruto unironically solos most of fiction. Superman and Goku included.
Tsukiyomi is an insta win versus anyone who makes eye contact with him, assuming they don't have a technique to break out of illusions

>>149691414
Nope otherwise Venom couldn't have entered and done the same thing.

>>149691489
I thought the baby Bakugo killed on live TV was literally AFO, Shiggy's deal was an implanted personality.

>>149691497
I think it's more like a Yami Yugi situation
Yami is always with Yugi, they hang around, they talk, they tag in for each other, if you have a fight with Yugi, unless specified, you're also fighting Yami/Atem.
If you're fighting the Juggernaut you're not fighting Cytorrak
If you're fighting Ghost Rider you're also fighting Zarathos

>>149691516
What happens if Ideon just blows his planet up from the other side of the solar system?

>>149691472
>High 1-A
Vertigo Lucifer? Perhaps but He needs outside help to create stuff
DC Lucifer? lol, no. (thanks Snyder and Morrison)