Thread 149734854

Its about time for another thread to talk and discuss about our 3/5 favorite batty girls!

>>149734854 (OP)
Lol it almost looks like Cassandra's right foot is backwards

>>149734854 (OP)
What's the deal with cass's book?

>>149734895
Huh i can see it.

O guys wfa spoiler!

>>149734854 (OP)
>Carrie
She was never a Batgirl. Why is she here?

>>149734982
She's in the image, idk why, tim levins must have liked to draw her?

>>149734973
For real?
>>149734982
Why not

>>149735066
Nah just a comm in the style, but in the wfa canon they did date.

>>149734961
Its not out for me either, i think amazon fucked up?

>>149735091
Yeah doesn't it come out today?

>>149734854 (OP)
Cass and coldcast is kino

>>149735156
Yeah its supposed to
>>149735170
Good b-ship for cass imo

Vampire cass spread

>>149735203
I like this.

Also WIP

>>149734982
Robin should be a girl

>>149735066
I mean i'm not complaining

Said it in the steph thread, but getting steph in robin fits, and discowing, to match with the one cass set

Fine, I'll do it myself.

>>149735641
Aw thanks.

>>149735588
>>149735528
Yumm

>>149734854 (OP)
I remember reading Stephanie Brown's batgirl comic and enjoying it a lot. I wonder if her time as spoiler was good

>>149735792
I can fix her.

>>149734854 (OP)
Bruce is/was Barbara's best love interest.

>>149735821
Nah hard disagree lol.

>>149734854 (OP)
Do you think DC has, in the long term, benefitted more from turning Barbara back into Batgirl than they would have benefitted from keeping her as Oracle?

>>149736001
Absolutely not.

>>149734973
I probably would've believed this more if you hadn't used your username.

>>149736090
Its not meant to be believed! lol.

New set's starting :)

Nudists

>>149735641
Thanks
>>149736001
Long term no. Short term maybe.

>>149736231
Kino

>>149736001
Fuck no, the short term bump faded fast and for a high cost. They damaged their brand by showing the truth of all the talk about "nothing matters and editorial's ideas will always happen even if writers line up to say they're bad ideas." They turned Birds of Prey from a specific small trio of likable characters that worked well together into just "the team of interchangeable girls."

>>149736001
Honestly, I think they probably shouldn't have crippled her at all to begin with, but it was also kind of impossible to go back, so no.

>>149736431
Most of what they did with babs they could have done with steph, especially burnside.

>>149736482
Bronze Age Babs was an awful character memorialized because she worked okayish in the HIGH camp of the Adam West show. In Bronze Age books of the time she absolutely floundered. "Commissioner Gordon just-so-happens to have a genius super-crime-fighter daughter who models herself after Batman" fit the attempted realism of that era's comics about as well as a midget's glove would fit Andre the giant. "Even Batgirl can end up crippled" was actually a perfect way to add a grounded element to the books that was very much in keeping with what O'Neil was trying to do as editor.

>>149736001

Barbara as Batgirl is a dead-end. Only thing she brings to the table is that she's a woman of some kind. They ALL have that.

>>149736768
Yeah agreed

>>149736001
To me it seems like it would only appeal to the nostalgia of people who remember her as Batgirl, while ignoring how she’s been the crippled Oracle for so many years a lot of fans probably know her better that way.
Personally I think she would be more beneficial to the team as their “guy in the chair” as Oracle then just another vigilante swinging around Gotham.

>>149737062
They probably could have done more set in the past stuff ngl. Or out of universe books.

>>149735811
Thanks for the dump.

I still don't think he's Cass's brother.

>>149738102
Yeah I think he's her cousin.

>>149735792

About that last panel. If the flower ninjas had been more explicitly magical like in that panel from the very start, I think the idea that they can fight and beat Cass would have been much easier to sell.

>>149735495
I do like girl Robin

>>149735716
Cass would be a lot more intriguing if they committed to the silent/mute angle
>>149736001
Yes. If I said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the team should be condensed down to just Bruce, Dick, Barbara, and Alfred.

>>149739467
Holy retro batman.

>>149739214
Who doesnt

>>149740089
DC

>>149734982
she looks ridiculous
>>149740089
me

>>149741823
pls, anyone but the most boring character Duke

>>149739506
fuck that a sexo Stepahnie.

Glad that Bette recently re-appeared - even if it's just a flashback

>>149735203
dc vs vampires was slop but it could have been a little bit more fun if Cass got to do anything

>>149739467
>>149739506
Sexo

>>149742392
I think all of these are good, but it makes sense the og fit would get that reaction

>>149742542
imagine if we got an Arkham Knight sequel where Cass takes up the mantle instead of Damian or Terry

>>149742798
Cass mods are quite fun.
>>149742528
Evil vampire lady cass, or anti-hero vampire cass hmm.

>>149742411
Why do you like her?

>>149742846
>Cass mods are quite fun.
got any links?

>>149742889
>Gets thrown under the bus constantly
>Still manages to keep holding on, and be cheerful

Core reasons, plus her time with Beast Boy was great, along with her latest appearance in trying to get the Titans West back together.

>>149742894
Skin pack has 4 https://www.nexusmods.com/batmanarkhamknight/mods/1549

>>149742972
https://www.nexusmods.com/batmanarkhamknight/mods/2405
This one is the modern one but looks good.

>>149742846
She would have made a better fit for the one good vamp than Damian i'll just say that

>>149742989
Yeah probably.

Going to sleep earlier, if the thread is still up, you guys got any comm suggestions/requests for august?

>>149736108
Looks good

>>149742972
>>149742983
Kino

>>149742411
I guess someone does care.

>>149743011
Wet T-shirt contest between Cass, Steph, Babs and Bette.

>>149735811
No

>>149745625
Its waid, he likes the silver age.

>>149745659
I feel that might be similar to the last one? But maybe!

>>149743011
A flustered and angry Cass getting styled on in tennis by Bette. Both are wearing remarkably short tennis skirts.

>>149743011
(One of the Mapsfags so you can already stop reading here if you want)


Got one, if you’re interested. Cass, Mia and Steph dressed like Kris, Ralsei and Susie from Deltarune respectively…

I was inspired by playing the game recently, and Maps dressed like https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi465T2d8LdQj2WZ-ZsMtNC_XUCl452BQr3p5FCr8bKtbrkAZFLeibraEFvV8Yu2wiGy3oje-73l1KZPIv6W6FdlMwOZzAlUa_rY4k0cIxAiu5bfOJz1_JGSDh1Bs-6MaPyPejURxmxGlA/s1600/Gotham+Academy+%252310+%25282015%2529+-+Page+6.jpg
Which reminds me of Ralsei.

Though if you’re not interested with Mia being there you could always switch her up with Babs (the order could be Babs = Kris, Cass = Susie and Steph = Ralsei… and now that I’m typing this I kind of realize the setup could work well with just the characters of Gotham Academy. Olive could be either Kris or Noelle, Mia as Ralsei, Pommeline as Susie… if Olive goes as Noelle, Kyle could be Kris too.

>>149747212
Erm, ackchyually, that's from pic related.

>>149748891
Ohhh this is fun.
>>149749431
Ive never played delatrune. I like maps as cass's robin mind you, for my "head" setting she's cass's first robin, carrie is her second.

>>149750596
Wait really? I thought it was waid, lol.

>>149750603
Waid did acknowledge Bette in the New History of the DCU, but she was also in the recent Titans Annual that recapped Donna's history, she was one of the Titans mentioned and later showed up with the other girls.

>>149743823
Any other Burnside babs with big tits

>>149742951
So the meta?

>>149750558
Would sniff cass's armpit

>>149736001
No, but I kinda don't care, even if I know deep down she works better as Oracle, I still kinda like having Babsgirl around.

>>149750597
>Ive never played delatrune.
I recommend it. I’m not a fan of bullet hell but I still got lots of fun. Plus I listen to the music while working.

>I like maps as cass's robin mind you, for my "head" setting she's cass's first robin, carrie is her second.
I like it. What happens to Mia when Cass took Carrie in your setting? Did she took the identity of Meridian?

>>149750558
Would be weird considering DCSHG Babs and comic book Stephanie have very similar personalities

>>149751319
Its some sort of spin off undertale? Ive also not played it, yet i know OF it.

Well the present stuff is split (tho this doesnt affect maps as robin much), and post robin yeah maps takes the name meridiam, and is in a relationship with damian. Further future they're married.

>>149734854 (OP)
Judge Anderson

>>149751816
>Its some sort of spin off undertale? Ive also not played it, yet i know OF it.
Pretty much. Though it’s not a follow up, even if it reuses characters. It is meta to some degree, like it expects that you’ve already played Undertale (like meeting a fan favourite beloved character: you tell them that you’re happy to see them again, and they respond by pointing out that it’s the first time you’ve met them).

I like your future timeline. Who knows, perhaps some day it might come true.

I really like my suggestion the more I think about it. I’m tempted to request it in the drawthread, but I feel like it’ll never get picked up.

>>149752614
Am confused too

>>149739269
>the team should be condensed down to just Bruce, Dick, Barbara, and Alfred.
Disagree, I think there are interesting stories to be told with the other robins and such. And as for Babs and Dick, I really feel like the fact that they’ve both immersed themselves into the espionage world should be more important, especially with other robins and batgirls waiting in the wings for more straightforward super hero stuff. DC could easily do a True Lies-esque book with both of them doing spycraft together if they want to keep the ship going. They should take over Spyral and turn it into the IMF.

>>149750596
Jesus do I hate the shorts on Vic here.

>>149736001
Dropped into the thread for some fanart and wanted to talk about this. Honestly I think it was one of the dumbest things the big two ever did. Gail Simone was on record saying it would be really really dumb to do, and she ended up writing the shitty stuff that brought Babs-Girl back even though she didn't want DC to do it. It really drove home to me just how hollow the industry can be when it comes to stuff that isn't creator owned. There can be writers lining up around the block saying something is a bad idea, but if the number crunchers say "it'll give us sales" it'll happen anyway. I dropped Marvel/DC and went full indie not long after DC undid Oracle. It's sure as hell not the only reason, but it definitely was one of the things that made me realize that if I wanted to keep this hobby and keep my blood pressure down I needed to stick to stuff where the writers have control.

>>149739269
>Yes. If I said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the team should be condensed down to just Bruce, Dick, Barbara, and Alfred.
Okay but (1) that didn't happen, so your reasoning is unsound, and (2) if you want to condense the family, why the fuck do you put Barbara up there alongside Dick and Alfred? She came nearly three decades later, and Commissioner Gordon's daughter being a member of the Batfamily is one of the most contrived things in comics, up there with Peter Parker's parents (and long-lost sister) being SHIELD agents.
I can understand most purists even if I disagree with them, but "The core Batfamily of Bruce, Dick, Alfred... and Barbara" purists confuddle me.

>>149734854 (OP)
Now what's the fuck has been going on with the batgirls?

>>149754611
>The core Batfamily of Bruce, Dick, Alfred... and Barbara" purists confuddle me.
I 100% feel like it’s people who got into Batman from the BTAS show.

>>149754647
Bette was acknowledged in a couple recap books
Babs is Oracle almost exclusively
Cass still has her ongoing book
Steph is in limbo

>>149754773
I suspect so, and she wasn't even in most of the show. And the part she WAS in included her dating Bruce, which... oof.

>>149754843
>Babs is Oracle almost exclusively
"Oracle." If she's not stuck in the chair, it's "Oracle" not Oracle. Just doesn't hit the same way if she's theoretically able to get off her ass and run to someone's rescue instead of freaking out in her tower, reaching for her rolodex when things go wrong.

>>149751816
I am curious about your future world

>>149754843
Neat

>>149754773
>BTAS
or '66.

>>149756779
Cute!

>>149754843
Steph just showed up in this month’s Wonder Woman issue talking to Diana

>>149757311
Sick

>>149754962
>rolodex
Dawg c'mon, is she living in the 90s?

>>149736001
Unironically yes and everyone who is saying otherwise is delusional.
>Sure "Oracle" has literally done fuck all since the SIX years they put her back in the chair
>and The Birds of Prey doesn't even include
>and we effectively got rid of the Batgirls
>but hey, we can still pretend The Killing Joke had lasting effects on canon!
>wow! Such great storytelling!!

>>149737062
Bad news bud but you're the one stuck in nostalgia.
ONE OF YOU FUCKERS MENTIONED A ROLODEX.
A ROLODEX!!!

>>149758322
She isn't in a chair tho. And how did she benefit during the 10 years she was just batgirl? That's the question lol.

>>149758338
Cause an internet info broker is actually really dated and not more relevant

>>149758841
>And how did she benefit during the 10 years she was just batgirl?
She had a title and was leading her own fucking stories but no you're right, being solely defined as Nightwing's girlfriend is such a better path.

>>149753194
I see, just dont play the game so idk about a comm with it.

I hope so.
>>149754962
Yeah this, she's not really oracle lol. She's "oracle"
>>149758889
I mean, did any of those stories actually help her as a character? She had a lead book as oracle too, the question is in relation to it lol. If she already had that before, its not really a benefit.
>>149758322
Babs is still batgirl sometimes, it is the worst of both worlds.

And, the "pretending killing joke is canon"...was also a thing with the new 52 thing, especially limp then lol.

Also come on, new 52 babs was also mostly known as dick's girlfriend, even when she wasnt dating him.

>>149755086
>Cass is the bat, civvie id she is a professional ballet dancer
>Kon is superman, cass and kon are married, he takes vacation photos
>Tim is oracle , runs wayne stuff
>Steph is nightwing runs the wane charity stuff
>Harper is catwoman
>Damian is flamebird/leading a restructured loa, and dating maps
>carrie is current robin
>Dick, babs are happily retired
>No clue on jason
>jvp is a priest
>duke is in a meta-team
>bruce is an old man with an exoslekton

>>149758889
As >>149758991 said. She already had that attention. The point is benefit compared to before lol.

>>149742983
>>149742972
>Entirely cosmetic mods that add no new abilities

Pass.

>>149759263
There arent other kinds for ak.

Steph dr midnite!

OYL Steph

>>149734854 (OP)
Best costume for each?

>>149759538
Babs: Batgirl wise idk, probably the blue cowl/cape one? But the real answer is open shirt/jimenez's shirt.
Cass is her batgirl one, no colored eyes
Steph, idk id probs say her classic spoiler outfit without the underoos
Flamebird probably her late 90s one.

>>149758991
>new 52 babs was also mostly known as dick's girlfriend
Nah fuck this son, she literally was more of a mainstay in Tom Taylor Nightwing than in Batgirls.

>>149759744
She was known for taking selfies bro. Come on. She wasn't a mainstay at all

>>149759744
The point was about the new 52 babs. You keep dodging it. You can think what you want.

>>149758991
>>149759106
Batgirl of Burnside but a better question is what good Oracle stories do you actually remember from Bird of Prey?
NOT THE VIBE but a specific story relating to Oracle.

>>149759762
>she was taking the selfies
that fucking whore!? Also was she actually doing nothing but taking selfies in the comics or was it cover of the comic?

>>149759804
I wouldn't say Batgirl of Burnside was good for babs...at all. The opposite really.

Oracle year one was kino. The hunt for oracle too. The story where she hacked batman. The whole Ted stuff was fun. Calculators rivalry with her is great. And her first and second team ups with Dinah are by far the best.

>>149759771
Blame your precious Gail Simone who literally had everyone thinking she was intentionally eriting shitty Batgirl stories as a protest 4-D chess move to force DC to let her turn back into Oracle...that is she was fucking booted off then all of a sudden she was orchestrating a fan campaign to keep her on as the writer of Nu52 Batgirl.

>>149759828
Cover but its the most impact Burnside had. And that two cartoons and the unmade movie used its costume.

>>149759859
What are you even saying? Simones Batgirl was ass. But so was Cameron's. And the last writers. Babs as Batgirl post n52 was a continous stream of ass.

>>149759852
>I wouldn't say Batgirl of Burnside was good for babs...at all. The opposite really
You would say that because you're a chump. Like please go ahead and bitch about how immature it is for a woman in her mid-twenties cannot invite people to her apartment or go to an art gallery.

>>149759891
A woman her age acting like a college slut is immature yes. But burden on proof is on you. How did any of that help babs at all?

>>149759891
Isn't the writer of Burnside a sex offender?

>>149759866
>cover
Because you're shallow like that right? Great principled stand to take against selfies, it certainly made a difference right?

>>149759913
Bro there were so many of these. All not fitting the characters because girls gotta be quirky lol.

And come on Burnside was such a snore that didn't help babs in any way. Say how it did.

>>149751895
What

>>149735811
So tenji isn't actually Cass s brother right?

>>149759927
>provide her own space
>gave her own rogues gallery
>gave her independence from Nightwing and Batman

>>149739506
Bazongas
>>149759314
I still don't like this costume

>>149759880
Batgirl of Burnside was better than Birds of Prey. You only like Birds of Prey because of Ed Benes.

>>149759953
>in Gotham. Where batman lives
>not a single memorable one. Not that she had many as Oracle but she had the one
>that's not true either given how often bat events overtook it...and how her bloody dad was batman during it lol

>>149759927
Barbara is meant to be quirky, like why the fuck wouldn't she be off-kilter?

>>149759966
I like birds of prey because it has an actual character. And characters interacting. A good fundamental dynamic. And babs Is written as smart. Rather than the one needing tech support lmao.

I like the Dixon run more than simone. Helena was super unnecessary

>>149759982
She really isn't? Her defining traits is being intelligent. And resilient. She isn't wacky. Even silver age babs she was a librarian lol.

>>149759973
>In Gotham
It's a major american city, most neighborhoods are in fact just smallers cities.
But more importantly, Bruce Wayne never actually showed up to impose on Barbara.
>she had the one
Can you actually name them?
>>that's not true either given how often bat events overtook it
That's not true either.

>>149759996
>she was a librarian
You just activated my trap card because Babs is explicitly a freaky librarian who wants to turns heads.

>>149760027
Not a straightlaced librarian. Guys believe it or not I don't like oracle because she's Babs traumatized. All that no-nonsense bullshit is just the death of her spirit because Batgirl was too kooky and had to be taken down a peg.

>>149760005
It's batman city dude. It's not a different place. And come on her dad showed up as batman. It's the same shit.

Calculator and Lady spellbinder. Calculator was cool. Lady spellbinder was lame.
>>149760027 >>149760038
Yes to make a sexy costume. Making a super conservative "practical " cosplay suit goes against that too.

And babs still was plenty gun as Oracle. Judt you not not written as a ditzy 19 year old. But a smart woman with a sense of humor

And no. No one got that you don't like oracle

>>149760027
So generic silver age chick lol. Truly a shame she got given an actual personality. Instead of just being "girl"

>>149759966
>Batgirl of Burnside was better than Birds of Prey

Unless you're talking about the very worst issues of BoP, no. No it is not. "Batgirl of Reddit" was an absolute insult of a comic. Fucking trash.

>>149760091
>it's not a different place
It straightup is though, it's designed to be anti-Gotham.

>>149760146
It was very 2010s tumblr more than reddit

>>149760133
>actual personality
90s snarky girl, now that's what I call a personality!

>>149760162
Burnside is part of Gotham. Gotham had been lighrarted too lol.

>>149760176
I wouldn't say 90s snarky. But okay. So what you're saying is that all her personalities are generic? Okay then. I'll take the one who is smart at least.

>>149760184
But you understand how it's different tho from the rest of Gotham right? Like how it's literally designed to be different from the rest of Gotham?

>>149760192
>So what you're saying is that all her personalities are generic?
I didn't but you did when you accused the silver age Batgirl of having a geneic silver age personality. I'm pretty sure you know what the fuck you mean by that and was just saying shit without any bases.

>>149759538
>best costumes for each?

Cassgirl: Alex Maleev's classic jet black costume, complete with bat symbol that follows the contour of her breasts. Lots of artists fuck up that detail, just literally make it follow the curve of her tits and it's perfect. I prefer small, colored lenses for eyes.

Babsgirl: I actually quite liked the one she wore in Heroes in Crisis. One of the few good parts of that terrible comic.

Stephgirl: I think Steph belongs in the Spoiler identity, and her current Spoiler costume with the ninja mask is quite decent. I'd go with that one.

Carrie Kelly for some reason: Whatever. Put her in a bikini or something, I don't care.

Nudist

>>149760162
Is it in gotham?

>>149760336
Based

>>149751895
>>149752614
>>149754271
Judge Anderson and Batman have worked together a couple of times and had sex.

>>149761928
Really?

>>149760336
Really stephs current? And that babs one?

>>149734854 (OP)
Erase the shit in the The top right and we can talk

>>149761586
Do you think Manhattan and Brooklyn are the same place?

>>149761938
Yes, really.

>>149760219
>>149762070
Daredevil is in hells kitchen it's still part of Gotham. Spiderman is down the street come on.

>>149762179
New York not Gotham kek

>>149761928
Doesn't make her a batgirl

>>149762179
But you recognized how there's two different spaces in one city.

>>149762385
It's still the same overall setting. I wouldn't count it as "disconnected ' cause it isn't.

Bludhaven at least is a train city away these are both a couple of blocks within a city.

>>149762445
>It's still the same overall setting
you cannot say the same thing about Burnside though. as a fictional city Gotham has the monoculture of being a dark and gloomy place while Burnside is the opposite of what Gotham is.

>>149762121
>just let me use my Bat-Phone

>>149762497
Yes. It's inside Gotham it's part of the city dude. It's part of the same city as crime alley. Is barbara not going to save someone from a mugging cause it's a street across?

>>149734895
How?

>>149763160
But you understand how two neighborhoods can be distinct from each other right? You clearly understand that Daredevil has its setting and people wouldn't want him to move over to Queens so Spider-Man can always show up. Same goes for Batgirl of Burnside in that was her own setting to cultivate.

>>149763298
It's just not a separate setting. It's the same city. And that's reflected in the fact that batman naturally ALSO patrols Burnside. Cause he and the other bats look over all of Gotham.

It's a Sub setting. Spiderman is also not limited to just queens, if anything he's mostly in manhattan

>>149760175
Yeah honestly.

Maybe she'll get a new costume soon

>>149764541
Which one?

cASSandra is the best!

>>149765254
Just look at her posing! She knows she's cute!

>>149762379
It makes her the best batgirl.

>>149765400
>>149765415
what is cass's ab workout routine

Had a final today and i passed whoop, was done a while ago but finally opening co again!
>>149765254
Seems like a reach with this image, but yes cass is the best.

>>149766151
Sit up blow jobs

>>149761978

I think they look cool.

>>149770810
Hot

Disco!

>>149736764
>"Even Batgirl can end up crippled" was actually a perfect way to add a grounded element to the books that was very much in keeping with what O'Neil was trying to do as editor.
Thanks for reminding me of how the Bat-books absolutely peaked under Denny O'Neil as editor and never reached those heights again. Legends of the Dark Knight is still consistently the best Bat-book that DC ever put out, and that was all thanks to him.

>>149736764
>"Even Batgirl can end up crippled" was actually a perfect way to add a grounded element to the books
The thing is that keeping her crippled, to me, is comparable to not making Bruce Batman again after he gets his back broken, or keeping Clark dead after he gets killed by Superman.

>>149771865
Everyone overlooks that there is only 5 years between Killing Joke and Knightfall. Going by O'Neil himself Knightfall was in development as early as 1990. "Adding a grounded element" was always a post hoc justification, no one in editorial or the writing staff was particularly interested in writing Babs at the time (she had actually gotten regular use right up until CoIE) so she got offered up as drama fodder.

>>149772086
Babs was already retired before COIE, and even bronze age wise her apperences were dwindling, because tonally she did clash with the bat books. Honestly, without that whole thing, she probably would have ended the way bette did.
>>149771865
You mean doomsday, but idk. I think the difference is that in those cases there wasnt as much characterization tied to it. Babs was forgotten before, anda ftewards she became a really compelling character.

And i mean,id be more than down to have versions of those stories where bruce stays paralyzed and dick has to stop azbat and clark actually dies.

Also ngl, making her batgirl again, afterwards is just odd. Even if she should be uncrippled (which i disagree) with,she should not go back to her prior id and abandon everything she was as oracle.

>>149772464
>Babs was already retired before COIE
Yeah like maybe for one week.
No I'm 100% serious about this, literally a week before TKJ hit the stand DC DC published a standalone Batgirl special that was all about how there's just no way for a woman to overpower big strong man without resorting to lethal means and Babs was deluding herself in thinking that even being a prodigy who was dedicating herself to a life of fighting crime was enough to overcome the serious job of being a costumed superhero like Batman.

>>149773012
And before that she was barely showing up, she had a combined total of what 5 apperences in post crisis? And even pre-crisis by the 80s and late 70s she was in disuse. Objectively her appearances skyrocketed as oracle. She went from another of the pack to dc's what fifth most reccurent female character?

>>149773098
> pre-crisis by the 80s and late 70s she was in disuse.
Nah, people say this shit out of ignorance because there's dozens and dozens of Batgirl stories as second or third featurea that nobody talks because they haven't all been collected yet so it leaves the impression Babs had like 5-7 stories from the 1960s to the 70s.

>>149734854 (OP)
this is so fucking bullshit

>>149766960
>Alfred vs. Johnathan Kent
Fucking amazing. All we need is Thomas & Jor-El looking on with shame, confusion & disappointment.

>>149773246
Eh she appears until 83 regularly in tec (killing joke was in 89!), in the main batman book she has a combined of 8 apperances from 79 to 83, batman family the book that regularly featured her ended in 78. So nah, id def say she was on her way out just by the nature of the tonal shifts in the batbooks.

>>149766960
Lol supergirl

>>149774074
'Tec is a main Batman book. And to be honest, ToCA, you're the last person who should be claiming that disuse invalidates a character.

>>149774981
Yes, and even then it was for four years then.

Im not saying it invalidates anything, i am saying that the character was already being phased out/seen as tonally at odds, and that if anything it was killing joke which galvanized writers into bringing her back in major roles :). You're reffering to cass or what with me? Or the casskon ship?

My stance on babsgirl is that sadly there's not a lot of stories with her i like, the one i like the most being year one, which was written with the retrosepctive characterization of oracle in mind. I just think she's a stronger character as oracle. But i can get how someone prefers her as batgirl, even if i dont quite agree with it.

>>149775086
>galvanized writers into bringing her back in major roles
That's overstated. Ostrander brought her back years later because of personal dislike of how they treated the character, Dixon picked her up for a teamup book, and it's not until Gail Simone that Oracle really gets any traction in the wider DCU. But even then she's squarely stuck in a secondary title and appearances outside of it are uniformly as plot convenience. Simone, her biggest champion, had run out of ideas for her and by the time Nu52 dropped had been walking back on her capabilities and feats because she had become a plot tumor.

>>149775274
Yeah, and he used her in his 20 issue run. And it wasnt "years" later, it was a couple of months later lol. And again, it stands that beforehand babs would go years with three apperences, but afterwards she consitntely showed up and never agian went a full year without at leasst 4 or so apperences. And idk, birds of prey was a big book, and she appered in most of hte books, from batman to jla (this was pre-simone mind you). Likewise pre-simne she's showing up in all the onnected bat titles. Simone just ran out of ideas for BOP. No writer can stay on the same book for too long without running into some sort of rot, and if we're judging it by that, oracle had an actual good run, babsgirl only has the what 10 scott issues?

Also, the "too op" thing is dumb in the dcu with people like flash or superman. Because oracle's skillset is legit useful in the internet world. And honestly most of it is within the realm of reality way more than even batman himself.

>>149770459
? are you retarded? why would me saying "Babs shouldn't be a world class martial artist" make you conclude I somehow hate women?

>>149776165
It IS the internet.

>>149776165
Who knows

>>149734982
is this that Earth-27 guy

>>149777309
I believe it is.

>>149742983
I don't like how big and visible the silver eye lens are, I prefer when they almost blend in

>>149765389
That piece is fantastic.

>>149773605
Yeah, that is the worst part of the series. I assume writing a nearly silent protagonist was more difficult than Puckett initially assumed.

Reminder that gookgirl and used goods blonde whore are no-draw SHIT characters with no memorable runs, no rogues gallery, and NO SALES. They have no presence in the public consciousness and gookgirl's pity solo is a dismal fucking failure that even you retards can't defend. It will be canceled, and you'll cope that it's because DC hates her.

>>149778827
Absolutely zero lies detected, how does gookgirlanon do it?

>>149778805
IIRC he asked Jae Lee if "mute Asian martial arts girl" was too stereotypical and changed it based on feedback.

>>149750996
Jimenez really remembered fucking Sharon Tracy?

based

>>149778827
>>149778839
t. Samefagging

>>149773605
Those are very long bat ears

>>149780839
For you

>>149780760
No ones fooled. We know this due to evrytime he gets banned

>>149778805
>I assume writing a nearly silent protagonist was more difficult than Puckett initially assumed.

Not just silent, silent without internal monologue. THAT was what made it near impossible. Only way to write a character that neither speaks nor thinks verbally is to constantly write her from the point of view of somebody else who speaks/thinks about her constantly. Which is what Puckett did at the start, but you can't really write a whole solo series like that.

The change that happened there wasn't to allow her to talk more, it was to allow her to explain her thoughts to the reader. Without it, it seemed too much like she didn't have thoughts at all.

mandatory post for a Batgirls thread

>>149781209
Tbh i do think it was quite effective, the big change seems to have been thinking it was too sterotypitcal/racist. Which is why it went out so early.

>>149781582
>racist

WHAT
what the fuck could possibly be the logic behind- never mind.

>>149781628
They asked, this was the editor bringing up iirc.

>>149781628
tbf I don't KNOW how it would be considered stereotypical, but something about it does feel likee "yeah this might be a bit stereotypical" but I can't put a finger on what it is. something about a mute Chinese child soldier girl does feel like it'd be racist in a way but like I said, without knowing which part of it

>>149735310
>>149736108
>>149756779
>>149766960
>>149769010
>>149781803
Wrong Cass.

>>149774074
>>149774981
I think it's also hypocritical because we know for a fact that Batman editorial had a vendetta against Barbara Gordon through her association with Adam West's Batman so for them to frame this as just Babs meeting her natural and inevitable end as Batgirl is bullshit.

>>149782114
I think the truth of the matter is very few people actually knows what Barbara Gordon as Batgirl was actually and what a lot of what we know is just retrojections from writers who was dealing with the baggage of paralyzing Babs.

>>149781925
You can pay all you like for a ship that's been unused since 2011 if you like, too.
But at this point Kon/Cassie is also long abandoned. Peak was 10 years from 2001-2011, which is a good amount of time, but Wonder Woman was into Steve Trevor for five times that in her publication history and even that's not a definitive pair for her.

>>149781925
Almost as if these are commissions.
>>149782290
I think DC in general just abandoned the desire to have a ww/super pairing since didio left.
>>149782114
I think its just that they saw her as not fitting the tone. Riddler was also in his way out during that period. I think with babs it was more so apathy, hence her not showing up for years basically.

I dont think its her natural ending, i think it is the opposite, its what made so barbara ended up not being forgotten and now she's what dc's 10th/14th most recurrent character?

>>149781925
Sure you mean Cassandra Anderson?>>149762121

>>149782114
This just reminds of how 90% of Kelley Pucket’s stories about Babsgirl always ended up with the same general idea/subtext. Still can’t believe how Babs as Batgirl got stuck with a writer who actively hated her for most of her brief appearances in the 90s.

>>149782114
>for them to frame this as just Babs meeting her natural and inevitable end as Batgirl is bullshit.
But Babs getting shot had absolutely nothing to do with being Batgirl. Joker was going after Gordon.

>>149784136
I get his issue, even if i dont quite agree with it. I do think that was more rooted in the logic based/lack of moativation stuff.

But hey, probably wasnt good for a writer to be stuck doing something he didnt want either,and using that to write something he actually wanted to is ultimately more productive imo.

>>149784509
That's the watsonian explanation aka in-character reason of what happen but the Doylist explanation aka the creative decision is that the editoral staff had a low enough opinion of Batgirl that they didn't see enough reason to give her an out.

>>149785239
I know the lack of motivation argument, how Babs never had a good enough reason to continue to be a superhero, to be weak. She's the daughter/niece of one of the most incorruptible cops in Gotham, her motivation is the same Gordon drive for justice.

>>149786242
The thing is that the idea of gotham being corrupt just wanst present when she was batgirl. That's just not there prior. And it'd be creating one, which im not opposed to, i like batgirl year one. But seeing the character as is? Yeah i can why a writer who clearly only really likes the o'neil bat era wouldnt care for her.

>>149786365
But even so she would still be raised by a cop and how her decision to walk away from Batgirl, especially as framed by Puckett, is that she felt she wasn't necessary which is crazy to me.

>>149778827
>NO SALES
Comics sell like ass to begin with. It's a niche product for dorks. Put them in a movie and if it's successful, they'd be used more. Gotta create the supply and demand where it matters, and that ain't gonna be the comics.

>>149786533
I mean, being raised by someone doesnt really mean you share their life goals. And classic babs was a librarian, nothing to do with law enforcement, and she kinda lucked out into being a superhero. So yeah i do get it. I dont agree with it, cuase again batgirl year one shows you can write a good/compelling basbgirl at least in the past.

>>149786848
Why distribute movies when you can just shelve them and get a tax write-off?

>>149785239
>I get his issue
I don’t, he’d have to hate a good majority of the Bat-Family if his reasoning for hating Babs is anything to go by.

>But hey, probably wasnt good for a writer to be stuck doing something he didnt want either
Sure, I get that, but did he really have to go out of his way to put down Babs as Batgirl nearly every time he wrote her?

>>149787989
Maybe? I dont think he really liked steph either Or at least steph as an competent member, maybe that's why he had her train under cass. Never seen him say anything on tim one way or the other, and his one apperence in his run doesnt really lean. Dick i can see liking. And bruce he very clearly rather liked.

And i do get it, but it must also be beyond frustrating to get an assigment on a character role you legit dislike contiously.

Tho i wouldnt say that moment was putting her down per say. The btas adventures thing yeah. ANd even the one where he had her want to quit trought.

>>149758322
Turning Babs into Batgirl killed Birds of Prey, letting DC turn it into a book that any-old female characters could star in and tanking both storytelling and sales. That in turn led to the double-punch of the so-shitty-they-didn't-release-it Batgirl movie and the shitty "any girls can be in it, right?" Birds of Prey movie.
And the Batgirls in the books are a mess.
And no dude, Oracle is not in "the chair." That's the crux of why the storytelling went in the shitter. She went from a woman overcoming her disability to still be useful while still encountering some very real roadblocks she couldn't willpower through, to being a girl that sits in a chair and can get up out of it any time she wants.
You're delusional if you think they made the right call rolling back the clock and prioritizing Babsgirl over Oracle.

>>149788291
>Turning Babs into Batgirl killed Birds of Prey.
BULLSHIT because Birds of Prey was already on it's last legs before Final Crisis.

>>149787989
>>149788182
I find it hard to believe Puckett was "forced" to write Babsgirl and can then be excused for shitting on her when it was a clear creative choice to contrast with her with Cassandra.

>>149788291
For me the handling of Oracle's disability is the height of comic book hypocrisy.
>we're doing it to show long-time consequences and how grounded and the genuine stakes within the story.
>...except for when it comes to Batman or Robin
>then Batman can walk off a broken back and steroid addiction while Tim Drake can be a upper-middle class from the suburbs of Gotham who just figured out Bruce Wayne's secret identity and be accepted as Robin without any crazy kung fu training.

>>149788348
It still sold really well so ehhh. We can argue creatively, but that's a different thing from the book doing good. And that the new 52 killed the BOP is pretty inarguable.
>>149788553
I mean, to be fair, tim wasnt accepted as robin UNTILL he had his training thing. So its very much written in that thing.

The back thing is true enough, tho context is different, its not the same having broken bones, and being shot trough the nerves. But also if we apply the "if so then why not" rule in comics, there's no reason bruce doesnt just bring back his parents, and every dead person back with a lazarus pit.
>>149788291
Yeah. Does seem to be the general consensus.
>>149788414
That's how writing comics actually works ngl. Writers get forced into books they dont care for ALL the time. Cassandra wasnt being made untill later. Due to those minis doing decently.

>>149789239
It takes a whole story from him to get accepted, and he's not in the field untill after training. Which after the bruce backstory was probably what many writers took issue with in other case the oneil editorial took issue with.

>>149789239
>5'5 110lb chink
>is expected to be able to beat Bruce in a 1v1
Even for comics, this is stretching it

>>149789705
I mean, all comic fighting is bullshit. Bruce is a normal man yet he can fight against wall of muscle killer croc who is bulletproof. Or clayface. Or even beat superman.

>>149734854 (OP)
get fucked crippled bitch

>>149788182
>Tho i wouldnt say that moment was putting her down per say
To me, I’ve always read it as Babs starting to get doubts about being Batgirl (which Kelley seemed to love to include), but I can understand that particular panel can have different interpretations. However, we’re also talking about the same comic where Babs was written to be so incompetent that she kills a thug out of sheer panic, so the putting-down thing still stands.

>>149789822
Yeah, ill be honest, when i inititally read those i didnt see it as particularly putting her down, outside of that moment. And that just seemed like a generic 90s moment to me to give her something to angst about.
>>149789760
>only thing with all the robins
>no batgirl
Huh

>>149789239
But anon we're including Puckett's Cassandra run.
Which of course raises the interesting question of why include Babs as Cass's mentor if he hates her so much?

>>149789822
>>149789926
What bugs me is that this is effectively a wholly different Batgirl from the actual published one and in some sense kinda acts like a strawmanning of Batgirl to really emphasize that Oracle is a better role for Babs.

>>149790170
then again I know there's some steph-ans out there who feels the same way about their girl, that her time as Spoiler is intentionally diminished so her growth as Batgirl looks more impressive.

>>149789926
I wouldn’t think twice about it being angst either, but Puckett’s Babsgirl stories ended with Babs rejecting or having doubts about her being in the cowl way too often for it to be a coincidence. I mean, it even happens in the less-angsty DCAU tie-in books.

>>149790038
>why include Babs as Cass's mentor if he hates her so much?
Think you’re a bit confused. Puckett explicitly confirmed he hates Babs as Batgirl, not Babs as a whole. Pretty sure he would have had no issues of having her as Oracle, especially when he could use her to prop up Cass as Batgirl even more.

>>149790170
Being fiar..it is technically a different continuity.
>>149790228
I feel BQM did that yeah.
>>149790038
I dont think he hated her, i think as he said he just didnt like the concept of her as batgirl. Iirc he specificaly commented on the whole "being able to be comparable to batman and robin without the same kinda training", iirc.
>>149790658
Yeah, tho that was also the case for some of her actual stint as batgirl too.

And being fair, the babs-cass dyamic was less about propping one over the other, and more about babs being cass's "mom".

>>149790807
>i think as he said he just didnt like the concept of her as batgirl
That’s kind of putting it mildly, he was pretty explicit about hating her as Batgirl.

>that was also the case for some of her actual stint as batgirl too
No doubt about that, but we’re talking about 1 guy, across different projects, across different stories. To me, it just happened too often for it to not be intentional.

>less about propping one over the other, and more about babs being cass's "mom"
Not really arguing otherwise, just saying in general that Puckett wasn’t above using Babs to justify Cass being Batgirl. Nothing really wrong with it either, happened with Tim and Dick.

>>149791156
I mean yeah, exactly for the reason i said lol. And again, that it wasnt what he wanted to do.

Yeah, i just mean without the knowdlge of that, to me when i first read it i didnt think anything of it.

Happened with dick and damian too. And babs and steph. And basically every legacy character other than kyle/hal (man i like kyle but HOW did they think that would pan out?)

>>149785364
>editoral staff had a low enough opinion of Batgirl that they didn't see enough reason to give her an out.
True, they spent 20 years maiming other characters and giving them outs.

>>149782232
My take is that it should not fucking matter how good or bad Babs was written in the 60's-80's, most comic writing wasn't that great back then and plenty of mediocre characters have gotten better runs since.

>>149792827
My take is that it does matter if Babsgirl was legit cooler than mordern writers give her credit for.

>>149791968
The issue with this logic, is where do you draw the line? Why dont superheroes bring back literally everyone that's ever died when they can? Why dont they solve world hunger? The reason is so there's some sembalnce of reality. And desu, not every character gots out.
>>149792827
I mean, if the character was written best in one specific angle, it makes sense some people prefer them like that.

And idk, i am really struggling to think of any character who actually DID get that, you know?
>>149793121
Eh, dont really agree there. She was fine, and i like her in batgirl year one, but she didnt really stand out in those stories and the best she's been written has been retroactively, which isnt a good sign for a character in general.

>>149759984
I get where Simone was coming from, deciding to shake things up by having two veteran heroes with good chemistry take a new kid under their wing. But it really was the beginning of the end for Birds of Prey, starting the book down the path where literally any female character (and some guys!) could be a bird.
It was a damn solid book when it was two very specific heroes complimenting one another's strengths and weaknesses. Making it The Girl Team has left us all worse off.

>>149793474
You say Batgirl:Year One but that, to me, is way too late to actually count cause that's still a Post-TKJ story even if it's told like the origin story of Batgirl.
Now I look at her actual origin stories and I see some clear differences to how OG Babsgirl is already differentiating from New Earth Babsgirl like the mentality of going to her dad's office costume party which comes down to agency.
>Batgirl:Year one is forced into a slutty Batman costume and finds the whole thing demeaning while still saving the day
>SA Batgirl is the one who made slutty Batman costume because she's a hot bitch and wants to turn some heads.

>>149771865
Ignore Superman. Quite frankly you'll hurt your head if you don't compartmentalize Gotham. Any time there's bombs threatening the city or something, Bruce should be calling the Flash, which kills the tension. Just ignore that.

In Bruce's case, it goes into how super-shit worked in general in the O'Neil era. Yes, Bruce got "healed" but in a way he absolutely did not want, lobotomizing an innocent woman he'd come to love. In O'Neil's Gotham, any technology (or magic) able to do things way beyond what's possible in real life came with a horrible price. You don't get to turn yourself into a human/bat hybrid and keep your mind. You can use bullshit mystic mud to cure your thyroid problems, buuuuut it'll turn you into living muck and give you a death touch. Hell, all kinds of things will give you a death touch, just ask The Corrosive Man.
I do think that explicitly giving Bruce a broken back and curing it was a bit sloppy and could've been handled better, but it's not like he had a cure that could've been handed to Barbara. It was a one-off and if you asked Bruce he would've said the price he paid was too high.

>>149773246
C'mon man, she was very firmly being pushed out because she didn't fit the grittier tone that DC was going for. She's lucky she didn't get Bronze Tigered.

>>149793976
I mean yeah, i LIKE batgirl year one because it takes what i like about oracle babs (smart and resourcful above all) and puts it in batgirl. In a way that makes her a terribly compelling character.

The reality is that silver age babs, just...isnt a very dramatic character. Its easy to compare babs with tim, and i think so too, they even have parell arcs, but the big difference is that tim has an actual motive for being robin, babs really doesnt.
>>149793854
I do think helena fit enough, and it turned it into a trio, but there was something lost. And it was really lost when linda was added too.
>>149793998
Yeahh superman/the jla do kinda just ignore it.

Also yeah basically great point. Bruce DIDNT want to heal himself. Also god clayfaace 3 was kino
>>149794164
If some writers didnt want to write ROBIN, batgirl who had way less of an inherent tie wasnt safe. I mean riddler and penguin were being written out of the books and those are some of the most popular villains out there.

>>149734982
>>149734854 (OP)
i always thought kelly was a boy

>>149793998
Also babs was keenly aware of this fact, she rejected three different "cures" for it. So its something the character made as a choice.

>>149735495
>>149741100
That would make it more weird, if Batman fucked Batgirl he would 100% fuck fem Robin.

>>149736764
>Even Batgirl can end up crippled
The problem is that they didn't stop doing it, it's not part of her character. It's being done today for handicap representation and more "women in fridges" scares. It's a lazy way to drum up drama that's already been overdone 100 times over. It stopped being shocking years ago.

>>149773605
I think the worst part of it was that it was because of a random mutant (I know DC has metahumans but if you're not going to give a character an origin, they're just a damn mutie in my eyes). "Some guy never seen before or since just has powers that could just do it, idk" was bad writing, full stop. If they'd used an existing character with mental powers, that might've been interesting. Put her against Cornelius Stirk, have her body-language-reading be a way to see through his illusions, and as she takes him down he gets one last psychic whammy on her that gives her linguistics at the cost of her power. Corny was the sort of guy that'd get a kick out of doing that kind of "blessing-and-a-curse" thing. Or have it be the result of having one of Hatter's devices used on her. Even just a random science experiment she got blasted by would've been better than "some guy could just do that."

>>149735503
She looks do erotic like that

>>149751370
Didn't babs had a crush on him?

Give Steph a minute. She just needs to fix something really quick.

>>149794241
>in my opinion silver age babs, just...isnt a very dramatic character
I ftfy buddy.
But seriously tho, her drama is daddy issues and that is something I guess I hate about Oracle because her trauma is always a shared trauma with Batman and her dad.
It can never be uniquely hers because it specifically isn't.

>>149794241
>but the big difference is that tim has an actual motive for being robin
Does he tho?

>>149794390
Fify?

Idk, id say her drama comes from specifically HAVING a dad (or i guess uncle, i dont hate the idea, but its always felt like cleanup for year one not including her ngl). And that builds so much of the character in contrast with the others. And she has motivations and intrests that bleed into her character.

(Also being fair year one babs did pick the outfit, not to be "slutty batman" to a joke on her dad)
>>149794474
>batman needs a robin
Its something, its not a lot but it is the undercurrent. Same with having seen dick's parents dying and being a huge batman fan. Granted, i do think if someone just..composited tim into babs for an adaptation, it'd work fine (better than like fusing him with jason or dick) but still, it stands. Its something

>>149794317
>it's not part of her character
It really is though. Hell, I'd say that the crippled "Oracle" stuff is so much more kino than the Batgirl stuff, we'd be just fine if we had versions where she was never Batgirl to begin with, just Gordon's daughter that got crippled despite having a promising future (not even necessarily by Joker), and became Oracle while trying to figure out what to do with her life.
"Gordon has a perfect genius Olympic-athlete daughter that started dressing up like Bruce because Why Not" feels more forced than "Gordon had a daughter with a very promising life, but she got crippled, and while trying to make a new life for herself she started doing stuff to help heroes online until it ended up becoming her new life" just plain has more meat on the bone. Man editorial was retarded for fucking that up, Simone was right, it WAS a really stupid thing to do.

>>149794500
>Idk, id say her drama comes from specifically HAVING a dad
So dady issues right? Daddy isn't gonna let her be a cop so she has to be batgirl.
But problem there is I don't think being the daughter of Jim Gordon is the most interesting thing about Babs. You know what I do think is the most interesting thing about Babs?
Being a sexy librarian.

>>149794513
Wasnt that a comic? And arkham origins/beware just had her start out as oracle too.

I do like her being batgirl and then getting shot, but her as just oracle id like too.

The weirdest thing...is that if they wanted to make her batgirl again...just have it so killing joke never happened /batman's at jason-robin era wise.

>>149794647
I mean, yeah that's a motivation. It ties to the overall themes that all the other characters touch on, and makes batman's world feel like it has some build in. Its like all of batman's villains having some big hangup around childhood/trauma.
Yeah but that's shallower. ANd fundamentally her core thing is that tie to batman's second/third/fourth supporting cast member. It is even the big irony aspect.

But hey i respect that you clearly know what you want :D

>>149734982
She's not a Batgirl, but she's a girl in the batfamily and that makes her a batgirl.

>>149794693
Tho i will say, i do find her as oracle to be hotter too.

>>149794716
Ew. I never get why timm did this...after his adaptation is the reason dickbabs is even a thing. Such an odd thing.

>>149794663
The problem is that Bruce can his spine crushed and can recover from it somehow, but Babs can't heal from anything and the writers have her reject anything just to keep her in the wheelchair

>>149794735
Better than the rotten shit of wonderbat

>>149794693
Ok but maybe lets not constantly think about Batman and the Batman family?

>>149794783
I mean, all of these characters are inherently linked. Babs out of all of them is one of the hardest to separate ngl.
>>149794744
If she hadnt rejected those id agree, but she did, and i do think it lines up. Especially with how these things always have some consequences and she's miss prepared.
>>149794782
Idk, i think if they hadnt made dickbabs so prominent themselves maybe, but with it its so much worse.

>>149794513
>Gordon has a perfect genius Olympic-athlete daughter that started dressing up like Bruce because Why Not" feels more forced
I guess it would if you think Batgirl as less of a character and more of a prop for Jom Gordon and was constantly framing Batgirl as Jim Gordon's daughter and not as Barbara Gordon, daughter of Jim Gordon.

>>149794327
Puckett washed out of comics because of writers block and being slow on deadlines, and it shows in the latter half of his Batgirl run.

>>149794813
>she hadnt rejected
The writers rejected it. Barbara was an athlete that had everything taken from her, it's completely out of her character to not want everything back.

>>149794813
>all of these characters are inherently linked. Babs out of all of them is one of the hardest to separate ngl.
Actually you're just flatout wrong about that because Batgirl is all about independence from the Batman family.
She doesn't need to check with Batman and Robin, she doesn't live with them, she isn't funded by them, she's doesn't even need training from them. Batman is welcome to and stop her but it's kind of a dick move to constantly undermine other people who are helping your city because you can't check your ego over your "brand".

>>149794744
Again, that's only a problem if you don't know how he got cured and can't wrap your head around the idea that sci-fi in Gotham is not NICE. Bruce gets his cure only by turning a good kind healer's brain into tapioca. Orca gets HER cure, but she's now stuck a freak that makes people run from her screaming. Trying to steal one of Ghul's Lazarus Pits is going to endanger a lot of lives, and even if you get to one you have to add JUUUUST the right chemicals or else you're skinny-dipping in acid, and even then the damn things have a funny habit of corrupting people mentally and turning them down a dark path. Azrael got funky superstrength and healing and junk, and also a tendency to hallucinate a crazy Crusader ghost that gives him advice like "set them all on fire, Jean-Paul, they're ALL sinners." You want a setting where characters can't possibly end up in a wheelchair because surely the heroes would just cure that? You should be reading Superman instead. Gotham fucking sucks ass as a setting if you remove stakes so thoroughly you can't even end up crippled, nevermind ending up dead.

I like her year one suit in gotham knights

>>149794977
It cannot be ignored how Batman waa given an out for his broken back.
You can say a woman paid the price for it, which is crazy considering the double standard we're obviously pointing out, but it was fucking superpowers that healed Batman.

>>149795046
Her costumes are hit and miss, but I can't stand her voice actor. She sounds like a nerdy ka43n

>>149794813
>Idk, i think if they hadnt made dickbabs so prominent themselves maybe, but with it its so much worse.
Yeah, it felt forced, no chemistry at all.
The only people who like that ship are teenagers with daddy issues and middle aged men (which Bruce Timm is one)

>>149794843
Nope. Sorry, Gordon's been around Batman's first appearance back in 1939.
"Sorry, we never mentioned it, but he has a daughter and she's Batgirl now" nearly three decades later is just damn forced. And "she's really good at EVERYTHING and wants to help people" isn't a very compelling motivation. You're not showing me comic pages I haven't seen before, I've TRIED to find the appeal in Babsgirl, but she just doesn't do it for me. I liked her from Ostrander onward, and some of the stuff retconned about her past worked well for me, but Jim Gordon came ~30 years before her and racked up a shitload of appearances over those years, so yes if she wants to come out of nowhere and be Batgirl from day one (which she did, she wasn't introduced as Babs and later turned into Batgirl, we got her as Batgirl in her first appearance), then yes, I think it's fair to sum her up as "Jim Gordon's never-before-mentioned daughter who was good at everything and became Batgirl because she was just so damn wholesome and good." And that's a retcon of the original, where she became Batgirl because she'd gotten tangled up in a crime on her way to a costume party and decided "wow, that was fun!"
I'm sorry man, but "person with a disability found a way to help crime-fighters despite her disability" just makes for a more compelling story than "person who's good at everything becomes a crime fighter."

>>149795059
Okay, then nobody can die or be injured in Gotham. Damn, you've really made for a boring ass book.

>>149795100
Its weird, cause its the changes the dcau made that make it feel odd? The dcau made babs dick's age and girlfriend. Without those, bruce x babs could have been fine, but they did it.
>>149794880
I mean, i think it makes sense for her not to choose that, when what she values most is her mind, and these usually come at some consequence.
>>149794904
She really isnt. She's dressed like batman, is in batman's city, is batman's cop friend daugther, and only showed up in batman's books. You can argue in-universe she's about independence which isnt true when she started tow ork with them so fast, but meta wise she isnt. ANd having characters tied to core themes...is pretty basic writing.
>>149794859
Dont see it there. I think his supergirl is a better showing.
>>149794977
I mean even in superman, superman COULD cure world hunger, but he doesnt.
>>149795059
It came at a woman's brain tho. ANd the lazarus pits make you mad.

>>149795046
Great face model, but i disliked almost all the outfits for all the characters in the game.

>>149795177
I didn't, the people who had Batman got his spine magically fixed did.

>>149795328
She became braindead tho in-universe.

And yeah, comics bring some characters back, doesnt mean everyone shoudl. Why wouldnt batman ressurect his parents?

>>149795160
I think you missed my point entirely so let me try again:
Batgirl is not about Jim Gordon's daughter.
Batgirl is about Barbara Gordon, who is Jim Gordon's daughter.
do you see the change in subject between the two sentences?
you should be focusing on Barbara Gordon and not Jim Gordon, right?
there's also zero reason why Barbara Gordon can't be a genius or be a skilled athlete just because she's the daughter of jim gordon.

>>149795366
>She became braindead tho in-universe.
BECAUSE SHE WAS A PROP TO FIX BATMAN.
it's so much worse than Babs having a cutting edge surgery or spinal implant or just not getting paralyzed in the first place.

>>149795328
My dude, it's been explained to you repeatedly that Batman getting his spine fixed was presented as a tragedy in-universe. If you can't wrap your head around that and have to keep going "yeah but then they should write a story when Babs gets healed too!" then there's nothing more to say, and frankly I doubt you'll be ever be really satisfied with comics in general. There were thematic reasons (sci-fi tech and magic don't have nice outcomes in Gotham) and in-universe reasons (she just couldn't snap her fingers and have access to a cure). That should be enough for you.

>>149795459
>Batman getting his spine fixed was presented as a tragedy in-universe
Maybe but it's kindy hacky outside the in-universe reason.

>>149783236
god damn what is it with blonde sidekicks of the trinity having mega boobs

>>149795447
Yes, and heroes in-universe wouldnt want this.

And again, there is a solution, the lazarus pits but babs didnt want them, cuase they made you mad. And cyborg impants...are shit in the dcu. And easily comrpomised (see cyborg, how many times has he been mind controlled? Or even post n52 babs lol)

Again, be consitent, with this line of logic, why doesnt batman resurect his parents? He can do it.

>>149795406
I understand your point just fine. I disagree. You can't have a character be around for nearly 30 years, suddenly introduce their never-before-mentioned daughter, say that said daughter is now dressing up just like the main character, and say "but don't think of her as the daughter of that far-more-well-established-character." Demand that people look at it another way all you like. That dog won't hunt.
BUT I would look past how forced she was if I found her to be particularly interesting or compelling. I didn't. She's an extremely generic polymath olympic athlete crimefighter without much more to motivate her, and without much else making her interesting. That was tired back in the Golden Age. She could've been Mr. Terrific-Girl.
And now I find myself wondering what her costume would've looked like if she HAD modeled herself on GA Mr. Terrific...

>>149795484
Okay? Two hacks don't make a right. And curing Babs (or, more accurately, just undoing her becoming disabled in the first place) was very very VERY hacky.

>>149795490
This argument fucking sucks because it's a false binary choice.
John Ostrander for asserting that Barbara Gordob stays in the chair perpetually, it's ok to admit that. Dude was riding high on making the best of a bad situation but let's be honest, Oracle had a short shelf life, she's living in a world of sci-fi tech and magic for fuck's sake!
THAT'S LITERALLY THE WORLD OF SUICIDE SQUAD GUYS. THERE WAS AN DIGITAL DJINN THAT HAD A JEWISH WEDDING.

>>149754611
wasn't Gail forced to write about Babsgirl being back? I know she was against retconning her cripple status, and I even remember her saying something along the lines of being unhappy to write the same but she was obliged to

>>149795503
I think you’re over estimating how well established Jim Gordon was for those 30 years. Like yes, he existed, but most of the material people use for the character wouldn’t even start being a thing until we see more of his personal life.

>>149788553
>or Robin
to be fair, they did kill off Jason Todd. I know he returned decades later but he did stay dead for all that time. I agree with the rest though

>>149795503
>I understand your point just fine
Do you though? Because it really seems like you didn't.
It's how you shouldn't be centering Batgirl around Jim Gordon but that's how you keep framing things.
>said daughter is now dressing up just like the main character
In a story about Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, the main character would not be Batman.

>>149790807
>he specificaly commented on the whole "being able to be comparable to batman and robin without the same kinda training"
and he was right for that. Babsgirl was out of her depth and though she had some fun moments early on, it shouldn't be long before something gravely serious happens to her and that's exactly what it did. she's just a police commissioner's daughter enamored with Batman to take up a similar crimefighting career, and while it makes sense for sillier media like '66 and similar things, if we're taking things more seriously her career as Batgirl was never feasible in the long run

>>149795634
>Babsgirl was out of her depth
But that's not really true though.

>>149795634
Miller had Carrie keep up just fine with less training. And he wrote a year One.

>>149794721
okay I agree this is hot

>>149795634
She really wasnt in those days. We can say she SHOULD have been, but she wasnt.
>>149795547
Not really, in-universe, there's ways to reverse death. Why DONT superheroes do it if they can? Its absolutely not a false binary becuase in practise its the same as "why dont they heal x or y"

And come on, the digital world is MORE present now. LIterally everything is tied to the internet. Hackers are more powerful now than they were back in the late 80s/early 90s. By magnifutes.

>>149795686
Ehhh, she fires a slingshot, she is really just support for batman and stays in the big tank.

Miller does write batman as being too callous and "soldiery" for my liking. Even if its still within the realms of accepability in returns.

He also wrote returns...before year one and the batman backstory there.

>>149795100
LEGO Movie is the only time that Bruce x Babs works, and it's primarily because she's Barbara only in name

>>149795708
Year one was made up of plans and extra writing he had for DK. He had elements of Year One in mind making DK
And he further has Carrie become Catgirl and then Batwoman after.

>>149795660
>>149795696
sorry I should've worded it better, yeah I meant to say she SHOULD have been out of her depth even if the stories didn't reflect that (until the Killing Joke did) and I agree on Puckett having the same opinion. he didn't hate Babs, he just hated Babs as Batgirl because it felt hard to mesh with the reality of everything else

>>149795720
> primarily because she's Barbara only in name
Some things aside like the race swap and being a police officer, she captures Bab’s self seriousness and high strung attitude from the comics more than most of the other cartoons do.

>>149795696
Ok you keep going back to raising the dead but Babs wasn't shot dead, she had a spinal injury. She lives in a world where this should be at least treatable and that's why I say John Ostrander was wrong to suggest people should avoid fixing her spinal inury and giving back her legs, by not doing so you're only highlighting how lazy comic books are for not thinking about this.

bump

>>149795547
Okay, now resurrect Bruce's parents. And Dick's. Hell, why doesn't Batman just use a teleporter to bring the Flash to Gotham to disarm all of Penguin's bombs? And maybe some telepaths to solve Riddler's Riddles?
If you can't put down your foot and say "nope, in these books sci-fi doesn't hand out easy solutions. MAYBE IN METROPOLIS, BUT NOT IN GOTHAM" the whole thing falls apart and the different titles become more and more homogenous. Which is bad.

>>149796668
based stephcass enjoyer

>>149795841
>Ok you keep going back to raising the dead but Babs wasn't shot dead, she had a spinal injury. She lives in a world where this should be at least treatable
He keeps bringing up "bringing people back from the dead" because in the DC Universe it's as doable as fixing a broken spine. If you want to play "well hang on, Bruce got his spine fixed therefore Barbara should get it fixed too" then fuck, Red Hood, Green Arrow, Cassandra and several others have "died" and come back from the dead, why not the Waynes?
And if your answer is "well there were very specific circumstances for why those characters could come back" then congratulations on figuring out why it was okay if Bruce was allowed heal but not Barbara.

>>149797253
its hard to believe now that once, lesbians were exciting and alternative

>>149797280
>He keeps bringing up "bringing people back from the dead" because in the DC Universe it's as doable as fixing a broken spine
No it's not.

>>149797246
>>149797280
Batman had a spinal injury and a person with superpowers healed him so that line was already crossed.

>>149797253
always

>>149797901
Now see.
Why couldn’t there be a panel of this in the Batgirls comic?
The comic would have sold more and lasted longer.

>>149793998
Shondra has been stated to be fine for decades at this point, which not only invalidates this argument but also makes Bruce look like a fuckboy who dumped her in a mental hospital then told everyone he was single.

>>149794735
While BTAS/TNBA is where a lot of people started with DickBabs, the actual relationship course in the show was a complete fucking disaster that crashed and burned - largely because of Bruce's manipulations. I think it's because a lot of people haven't actually paid attention to the flashback material in TNBA.

>>149795160
Bruh, if a retcon is what is causing your issues you really shouldn't be reading Batman.

>>149795720
>>149795766
>the best BabsxBruce depiction is Brucexstraight Renee Montoya

>>149797504
Don't forget in Tom King's run he just unbroke his spine on his lonesome.

>>149797280
Kate literally had her neck snapped was fixed by being put in a Lazarus pit to zero ill-effects.

>>149798304
>Don't forget in Tom King's run he just unbroke his spine on his lonesome.
Well why didn't Babs just do that then? Is she stupid or something?

>>149797901
Ass

>>149739269
>Cass would be a lot more intriguing if they committed to the silent/mute angle
they did, for a while, and then they ran out of things to do with that

>>149739269
>Cass would be a lot more intriguing if they committed to the silent/mute angle
it's incredibly hard to write her as a protagonist for long times with that angle. like another anon mentioned earlier, it was her mute nature coupled with zero internal monologue that made it really hard to pull off

>>149795740
After he decided carrie was THE BESTEST ever by DK2, and taking those books into account is not the best, when while entertenining they're nowhere near that quality level (and where in universe bruce has trained her inbetween)
>>149795720
They dont even really do it.
>>149795841
Im saying that in-universe they can solve death, much like how they can solve a back injury. Its really no different.
>>149797280
This exactly!
>>149797465
It literally is lol. There's pits all over the world that ressurect the dead, 50 magicians who can, cloning, ect.
>>149797504
And batman brought damian back from the dead...why doesnt he do this for anyone the joker kills? Or his parents?
>>149798272
Eh, in BTAS its perfectly fine other than the irony they're both hiding a secret life, its even cute. In TNBA (which i treat as a different show ngl) they're exes, but they clearly have an actual torch for each other, with most of their interactions showing that. And especially the tie in comics for tnba.
>>149798304
Tom King is a horrid writer tho, and i mean, it just brings up more questions about ethics lol. Also he did that after babs was healed, so what's even your point?
>>149799174>>149799379
I mean, we know this isnt the why, it was just due to fears of being seen as racist.

>>149734854 (OP)
Barbara is the only batgirl imo

I really don't care for stephcass

>>149799538
your opinion isn't fact. Others exist.

>>149799538
…to fail!

Has Batgirl #10 came out?

>>149800705
Storytimed in this very thread.

>>149799416
>And batman brought damian back from the dead...why doesnt he do this for anyone the joker kills? Or his parents?
The question is not why doesn't Batman just do this for everyone, the question is why is Babs the exception? There are options, there's clearly dozens of available options for her to be healed from the spinal injury but I'm supposed to believe that it's so much nobler for her to live in pain and diminished capacity than just getting medical treatment.

>>149801047
She isnt the only character that decided that she didnt want these things. And again, the thing is this applies to literally everything. They can bring back the dead, why dont they? Why dont people motivated by death bring back their dead loved ones? Well, there's character reasons for it, but if we ignore it for babs (or as you say, its just the writers exceuses) then that applies for everything too. Im saying be consitent.

>>149801080
>She isnt the only character that decided that she didnt want these things
It's a spinal injury bro and I'm pretty sure those things and I cannot find a good reason why Babs would live in constant pain just for "character building".
It flatout doesn't make sense, it's a reasoning a writer gives and not an actual belief and value a healthy person would have.

>>149801080
>be consistent
Ok then let's keep Steph dead then.
She was tortured and killed by Black Mask so why is still walking around?
Different continuity? That's no excuse, we cannot be raising random nobodies just for the sake of fans, Steph was graphically tortured to death and we all have to accept that's where her story ends.

>>149801239
Again, she said she didnt want it, much like how bruce didnt want to meddle with ressurecting people. In-universe both are possible.
>>149801332
I mean that death was just retconned. With her never being dead. You could say jason, and you know, i wouldnt even disagree there lol.

Again, what im saying is simple, you cant seriously be dismissing in-universe justifications for characters not accepting healing stuff, while also just ignoring that naturally that also leads to ignoring why they dont ressurect the in-universe dead lol. When they can.

Again, this is moot too, you got what you wanted, and it was honestly pretty ass so like...yeah ill take babs as just oracle personally.

>>149801239
Do you apply the same for death? no actual person would not bring back their dead loved ones if they can, logically.

>>149801495
Both could be possible but the two are not equal mainly because we're talking about Babs making a choice for her own self rather than Batman making a choice for someone else.
It's not playing God, it's going to the doctor's.

>>149801495
>>149801516
>>149801540
It's not about someone raising someone else from the dead, it's a person trying to find medical treatment for themselves.

>>149801560
If that person rejects it in-universe, that's it. If we are ignoring the in-universe logic do it for all. In the DCU its not more difficult to heal those wounds than it is to bring back the dead.
>>149801540
If she doesnt make the choice, and speciifcally asys no when offered, then that's kinda it. We cant say "well its just the writers" if we do then that applies to everything lol.

>>149801851
I feel what im saying makes sense, and i get it, you guys think its odd in-universe, i just think its an odd place to draw the line/discard what the character says.

And again, we have your thing, and imo it was really really lame.

>>149801851
>If that person rejects it in-universe, that's it
Except characters and change their minds.
But more importantly I think it's the fact you haven't given a reason why Babs view being physical pain as a virtue like she's a cenobite from hellraiser.

>>149802003
I mean, they didnt even bother saying why she changed her mind. Cause n52. And the aftermath all did end up proving her fears right lol.

She doesnt view it as a virtue, with the lazarus pit she doesnt view its possible consequences as worth it. And with the JL's methods, he thinks it'd be unfair for her to get healed when so many people arent. Both of those make sense to me as character motives.

>>149802155
>And with the JL's methods, he thinks it'd be unfair for her to get healed when so many people arent.
Well that's a bullshit argument because she's not helping anyone by not doing it and just raises why does the justice league not help the medical community.

>>149801882
The problem is we know that its an entirely editorial reason for her being in the chair. Any attempt to justify it, when that same editorial is perfectly willing to have other characters walk away from similar or worse injuries up to and including being dead, only calls attention to the fact that the book is having to ignore its own setting to justify its editorial direction. Even worse the actual in-universe logic they used to explain why she's in the chair was literally "superheroes have the ability to easily cure spinal paralysis for anyone they just don't do it so Babs is taking a moral stance" which only causes more issues. They ratfucked any internal logic.

>>149802155
Her spine getting fixed Nu52 is explicitly mundane medical technology that she received as part of a clinical trial. It was perfectly in-line with her stated motivations. Also they had to change how the treatment worked two different times to justify the stories where it was hacked.

>>149802259
I mean eyah, it does when they only treat their in-universe.
>>149802325
Eh, it wasnt availble to anyone else, so not really. And yes, it being compromised just you know, makes babs acutally doing it kinda stupid.
>>149802277
That's just going in circles, because i can say the same for any attempt as to why superheroes dont solve world hunger, or dieses, or bring th edead back. Fucking hell, every single gotham story has to ignore its own setting because the JL exist and can end almost every issue in 2 minutes.

>>149802277
Like "why doesnt superman stop the joker" is the type of questions, you should then logically ask.

>>149802383
Do you know what a clinical trial is? Because if you do you'd know exactly how stupid that statement is. As for your second statement, I would like to remind you that it is canon that the Joker can completely fucking body Cass without issue because she's completely worthless in a fight without it and it doesn't work on him.

>>149802419
God ol' Yoto, you should try to get some ribald/lewd stuff out of him, he's game for it.

>>149802391
That actually has a logical answer, Superman has his own villains he needs to take care of and can't run to Gotham every time a crime happens. And from a meta perspective, team up issues/books show that it happens frequently in-universe.

>>149797504
"a person with Superpowers" who got lobotomized doing it.

>>149797465
Anon, there have literally been more characters resurrected in DC than there have been characters who got their spines fixed. If you're going to play "well Batman had an injury undone so it's unrealistic for Babs to just stay crippled" then every time a character dies there should be a 2 issue follow-up story just bringing them back. Batman should never be going "if only I'd been faster, I could've saved that NPC" he should be going "right, how am I going to bring this person back to life this time? Magic? Lazarus pit? Hmm, I haven't done time-traveling recently..."
It's a shitty approach to writing. Really shitty.

>>149802570
>"a person with Superpowers" who got lobotomized doing it.
Apparently not but also that's bad logic to assume that will happen everytime someone with healing powers tries to fix a spinal injury

>>149802487
Yes, its by defintion something not avaible to the public yet, as in her getting preferential treatment.

I said JL, i didnt mention cass lol.
>>149802533
ive gotten some, rn he's making a luke/mara thing, but ive not heard from it in a while ngl.

Superman has superspeed, there's 700 superheroes with superpowers come on. And again, the only thing is the meta thing. If we're disergarding in-universe explanations we should do that for everything.

And no, team up issues show it happens rather infrequently.
>>149802570
Or hell, bring back his parents.
>>149802598
Do you think a superhero would experiment with that, with that being the risk....

>>149798304
Tom King is a terrible writer, and quite frankly the increasing willingness of writers to just go "Lazarus Pit, also no side effects" is a problem. It really does hurt writing if death has no sting. Hell, it turns Batman into a "Reed Richards is Useless" character, if he has all these neat toys and sees people regularly brought back from the dead BUT it's never used for anyone that isn't a cape or former-cape.

>>149802598
The Batman books work far better when there aren't people with healing powers that can just fix spinal injuries. Why the fuck aren't they working in hospitals? Why just save capes?

>>149802631
Its been an issue for a while. King just increased it. Because it wrecks his own story. Why doesnt batman/damian just bring alfred back lol.

>>149802570
We see Shondra heal people without issue in Azrael, and by the time Hush rolls around she's mentally fine.

>>149802629
Do you think people with healing powers aren't also superheroes willing to take that risk?

>>149796668
When is DC gonna make this canon already?

>>149802629
It's not preferential treatment, you have to sign up and be approved to take part in the trial, which are used to determine the safety and efficacy of treatment. It's her taking on more risk for the sake of the potential to help others in her condition.

>>149802751
We were this close with greatness if just everyone on Batgirls started on the same page of how old Cass and Steph was.
>13-15
girls hugging girls
>17-19
girls kissing girls

>>149802713
>We see Shondra heal people without issue in Azrael
Yes and no. Pushing her powers to the extent needed to cure Bruce fried her brain. O'Neil gave her a semi-happy ending in Azrael, doing some lower-level healing but clearly still brain damaged but making the best of it.


>and by the time Hush rolls around she's mentally fine.
Loeb is one of the worst writers we've had. "Yeah, here's Sondra, she was a doctor right? Anyway she's helping Tommy with Bruce's injuries. And Killer Croc isn't some dude with a condition, HE'S DE-EVOLVING."
But sure, she fried her brain helping Bruce, nearly died, and years later had mended. Okie-doke. Still makes Bruce's "I wish my back was better" into a monkey's paw wish, because he sure as hell wouldn't have wanted her lobotomized, even if years later she got better for some raisin.

>>149802751
CassxSteph is the room temp glass of tap water of ships. Both of them have about a half dozen more interesting ships.

>>149802759
And then after she's cured it never comes up again because the tech can't be allowed change the setting too much. Reed Richards Is Useless.
It's an ongoing problem with all the cape settings where characters have access to tech that should change the world, and after it benefits them personally it decidedly does NOT change the world. Because we want to read "our world except there's a guy with a rocketpack that can fly" not "how the world would change if rocketpack technology was actually perfected."

>>149802833
She heals a kid in a wheelchair in Azrael.

>>149802911
Hilarious

>>149802878
Realistically it wouldn't change the setting that much. There are an estimated 383,000 people in the USA with some form of spinal cord injury, roughly 0.11% of the population. A massive medical breakthrough, sure, but it's not something that has a societal level of effect.

>>149802874
StephCass was great when they were more tense and prone to arguing

>>149802487
>it is canon that the Joker can
non-canon, almost every time. Joker can never do any such feat because it’s retarded. every time he miraculously does something it’s non-canon. dogshit character

>>149802911
There's a spajillion reasons to be in a wheelchair, "bullet took out a chunk of a spine" is on the high end of "hard to fix." But sure, under O'Neil's pen Sondra was turned into a sometimes-healed-people character with the mind of a 4 year old, that couldn't understand what she did and sometimes gave helpful feedback like "there's nothing wrong with you" [Cue big grin with a bit of drool]
I don't see that as busting things so badly that Babs HAD to be cured. You can certainly start going "well maybe Cyborg can give her cybernetics" but then you definitely run into the problem of why the supers aren't using their shit to make world-changing improvements for everyone. If you've got the tech needed to cure the lame and it's not being spread around, that raises the question why only the Chosen Few are allowed have it. It turns the heroes into villains saying "We live on a different level and you're not invited."
Better to just have Batman go "Jason's dead, Barbara's crippled, and we just don't have the resources to fix those things."

>>149803052
>We'll just have a DCU where progress is stunted and medical tech isn't shared with the masses, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF FIXING SPINES
>For the day-to-day schlubs nothing improves, except nobody in a wheelchair is allowed to exist

I don't like your approach to comics. I'd prefer a Gotham where people stuck in wheelchairs are allowed to exist, as opposed to one where an entire real-world demographic is Thanos-snapped out of existence in the DCU because someone in a meeting in the early 90s pitched "we break Batman's spine so someone else has to be Batman for a few months."

>>149803197
The problem is that DC Comics was the one saying it to justify a single character being stuck in a wheelchair. From a franchise that has literally healing pools, a plot device that was used to give Black Canary her superpowers back and to heal Batwoman from paralysis following a spinal cord injury. And before anyone says it, it takes repeated dips in a Lazarus pit to have negative side effects on mental health.

>>149803282
I see it more like Automail in Fullmetal Alchemist.

>>149803197
Yeah this.
>>149802751
Doubt it will.
>>149802715
I mean, to thesmelves yeah, its not heroic to sacrifice someone else.
>>149802759
Which she got...cause she knew bruce wayne.
>>149802878
And this yeah, the DCU still has people in wheelchairs lol.

>>149803454
Its a character logic, if we ignore that, we ogtta ignore every single character logic.
You can say you dislike it, and we liked it. But at least we undestand what the other is saying right?

>>149803454
On the Lazarus Pit side of things, Ra's has a tendency to murder the fuck out of people that get near his pits, making it a "too risky" option. Canary got healed because she'd accidentally impressed a dude she didn't know was Ra's, to the point where he was showing her around his crib and went "hey look at my cool Jacuzzi. Don't look too hard though, or I'd have to kill you, ha ha, but seriously don't touch it." (I exaggerate but it was still a "she was right there" scenario).
All that aside, the Lazarus pits have become waaaay too much of a Deus ex Machina. I don't care if people like what's been done with Jason and Kate, they should've stayed dead. Or at least we could've gotten a better story for why they're back than "Fell in a vat of Resurrection." Whatever happened to "that was a body double"? Hell, I'd rather have "I'm an unstable clone with the memories of the original" than yet another Lazarus Pit use with no negative consequences. It's getting to the point where it's like getting your annual physical.

>>149803454
That applies to death too tho.
>>149803896
And i mean jason got negative consequences, and even dinah did (shouting when her powers came back so hard she nearly brought the roof down).

CassxSteph but Cass was somehow born with green skin.

>>149804050
Once you move past the surface level Cass is Glinda and Steph is Elphaba.

>>149802751
DC editor here.
We would be okay with them experimenting with each other and then moving on. But too many fans would want it permanent. And that’s bad for business

What's the best Batgirl runs in the comics? Never really read anything except the recent stuff.

>>149804483
GIVE SPIDER-MAN BACK HIS WIFE

>>149805193
I still haven't seen the actual comic this Cass is from anywhere.

>>149806030
Its a toy first.

>>149806030
>>149806126
And the comic is in the toy, and still hasn't been widely scanned

>>149805193
big

>>149804483
>DC editor here.
Prove it

>>149808437
Okay, here's my notes from the latest Editorial meeting.
"Everything fans like is wrong. Sales will improve if we aggravate people. Nothing good and new should be nurtured, kill it for canon fodder as soon as possible."
The new guy said something about trying to improve clarity and then asked about... reprints or something? I don't know, I didn't transcribe his shit, kid's crazy.

>>149802751
Hopefully never.

>>149808797
DiDio we know it's you

Is the drawfren here?

>>149809882
Bette?

You're telling me that the existence of Batgirl first started on that Adam West TV show?

>>149806126
>>149806510
How is it that no one has scanned that comic anywhere?

>>149794735
>this...after his adaptation is the reason dickbabs is even a thing.
dickbabs being a thing started in 1975, old chum.

>>149734973
Who and who?

>>149734982
She's hot

>>149734854 (OP)
...why is Carrie in this?

>>149787255
The Blackgirl movie would have bombed hard. It's better they shelved it.

>>149811906
No clue

>>149787255
that movie was doomed because it was quickly shot in the interim period when Rock was going to save the DCEU and Michael Keaton would play an old Batman moving forward. pretty sure that's the Batman that this Batgir was gonna train under

>>149815375
Yes. This was before The Flash was rewritten & went into reproduction. They probably planned to keep the Snyderverse going.... via fusing the Burtonverse into it with The Flash. But then this movie was shelved so we got what we got instead.

>>149812829
There's not nearly enough porn of her

>>149761928
Judges can't have sex

>>149815495
because Frank Miller personally sends hitmen to the houses of those who make Carrie Kelley porn to threaten them

>>149815519
Anderson is not a very good judge, but she is a powerful PSI and has a lot of achievements, so she gets a lot of slack.

>>149812374
Cassandra Cain and Kon-el
>>149811958
Eh as a serious relationship

>>149817237
I'd like this piece a lot more if it weren't for the fucked anatomy or that Steph wore it better.

>>149817605
>e if it weren't for the fucked anatomy
that's the fun part though. She's a fucking thicc thigh fuggnugget.

>>149804608
Depends. What so you want?

>>149817887
Agreed

>>149819777
Very nice!

>>149819777
Can anyone edit this with black/blue. I don't like pink babs.

>>149794375
>Hey Bruce can i have money for breast reduction surgery?
>No
>Then can i have a bigger suit?
>No
>......any reason?
>No

>>149821206
for me it's 1, 2, and 4

>>149821206
4 is actually scary, the rest just look like if Catwoman and Batman's suit fucked.

>>149823732
1 is quite cute.
>>149823748
Dont see that with 2 ngl.

>>149821206
5 kinda looks like Michael Myers

Beefy cass anon if you’re here before the thread is over think you could catbox another cass and rose comic?

>>149810040
I know I'm not the one you're talking about but I like drawing DC characters and sometimes will fill requests on the drawthreads but they've been overrun by spam lately. I'm open to suggestions (maybe for the next time one of these threads comes along because it's almost at the bump limit).

>>149825742
What's your art if i can ask?

>>149826003
I've done a few but here are some of the ones I can remember of Batgirl and Batgirl adjacent characters

https://co.llection.pics/post/view/121938
https://co.llection.pics/post/view/122967
https://co.llection.pics/post/view/124578
https://co.llection.pics/post/view/126917
https://co.llection.pics/post/view/123890
https://co.llection.pics/post/view/112710
https://co.llection.pics/post/view/131163

>>149808998
I don't know who that is. I just don't want the Batgirls to become Harley/Ivy 2.0

>>149826211
Oh yeah ive seen your arts.Would you consider drawing the cass/kon by any chance?

>>149826364
Sorry to disappoint but I'm not a fan of that pairing. I'm open to other suggestions though.

>>149826703
Dang, do you do comms or nah.

>>149826265
>I don’t know who that is
sure you don’t DiDio

>>149826756
No but maybe one day. For now I just occasionally check the drawthreads or other generals on here to see if there are requests for any characters I like.

>>149826961
Gotcha. Would you be intrested in doing tim/steph or nah too?

>>149826998
Sure, what did you have in mind?

>>149827145
Honestly anything with them would be cool, particularly red robin and batgirl. Argue-flirting especially. (But i presume for next thread lol)

>>149827201
I'll give it a go. I was actually working on a Tim/Steph drawing awhile back but got sidetracked so I never finished so you motivated me to try to finish that as well.

>>149826703
what about Cass/Steph? not even as a draw request, just asking if you're a fan of the pairing

>>149826703
Can we get cass and big barda being gal pals doing girly activities together and the like? One of the only good things about current birds of prey is cass-barda friendship.

>>149827262
Oh which drawing if i can ask.

sniffing Batgirl butts

>>149827514
I'm honestly indifferent. I don't find yuri/lesbian particularly characters interesting. But to each their own I guess.
>>149827651
Sorry but my knowledge of DC characters is pretty limited to only Batman, Superman and some Wonder Woman characters. I don't know who Barda is.
>>149827705
Timmy Cage and Stephanie Blade from Mortal KomBAT (get it?) I guess that was lame but I thought it was clever.

>>149827764
>I don't know who Barda is
Big Barda is a member of the New Gods mythos by Jack Kirby, pretty cool stuff if you're looking to get into