Thread 149766665

What went so terribly wrong? How did it happen that Grant Morrison, who usually never made a miss, wrote THIS?

>>149766665 (OP)
Trying to write a Diana story lowers your IQ by 60 points for some reason

Maybe he was horny?

>>149766665 (OP) (OP)
Trying to write a Diana story lowers your IQ by 60 points for some reason
Grant Morrison wrote the worst Green Lantern run of all time, a comic so dogshit that it's firmly the worst mainline comic run ever written.

>>149766665 (OP)
He had a good run from the mid 90s through the early 10s.
Animal Man and Doom Patrol are massively overrated, and his last good comic was The Multiversity.

>>149766786
True
>Animal Man
Issue to issue the quality of this one is all over the place. The worse shit you've ever read will be followed by something pretty good.
>Doom Patrol
Starts off great but disappears up its own ass

>>149766665 (OP)
>How did it happen that Grant Morrison, who usually never made a miss, wrote THIS?

Morrison was clearly sabotaging DC by the third part.

>>149766665 (OP)
>who usually never made a miss
Half of the comics he writes are massive misses lol. I say that as a big fan of his work.

He got way too into the woods of Wonder woman's meta origins he neglected why the character got popular in the first place. You can get into the (ahem) sensationalism about Marston,his polygamy, his beliefs on "loving submission" and bondage, and so on- but ultimately what made Wonder Woman popular with was the fact that it was a cute fantasy series for girls In simplest and most direct terms, it had the appeal magical girl series have today. A woman who's strong but still feminine, has a romance with a masculine handsome man, has fun animal sidekicks she can ride, has whimsical equipment like magic bracelets and invisible jets. You need that bit of light magical whimsy and wish fulfillment that you lose if you try to ground it too much into feminism or mythology.
Most comic writers have no idea what normal women or girls like, and at best have vague ideas from so-called feminists and thus present something that doesn't really appeal to anyone.
All-Star Superman cut to the core of what makes Superman appealing. It isn't a thesis on what Siegel and Shuster went through in the creation of Superman or what real world beliefs they might've been trying to use the character to show.

>>149766665 (OP)
Wonder Woman is a bad character conceptually and needs to be uprooted and torn down every which way in order to be compelling but that’s too much work

>>149766665 (OP)
it's fine

>>149766665 (OP)
Morrison is obsessed with the golden and silver ages of comics, and he isn't a particularly subtle writer.
He knew about the not-so-subtle subtext of dominance and submission in the original Wonder Woman run, and decided to run all the way with it.

But that was something which works better as subtext, and probably should be moved on from in general.
He turned it into plain text and made something weird and uncomfortable

>>149766665 (OP)
How is it a miss?

>>149766665 (OP)
My question is why did DC think this, or injustice, or dceased, or Taylor’s nightwing, or Gotham PD we’re worth making compact versions of? You’d think the line of comics meant to appeal to manga fans (read: shonen fans, because that’s the only genre of manga selling in notable numbers in America) would appeal to young men.

>>149767697
Good post.

I'd also like to mention how hot and cold Morrison is in general. Sure people love All Star Superman, his Doom Patrol run was good, too. But he's made plenty of terrible comic books over the years.
His Batman run, if you ask me, was mostly bad. And that was a character he understood.
When he was tasked with Wonder Woman, a character he was less ready to tackle, his faults as a writer shone through terribly

>>149768046
It might as well be an OC, it’s full of weird degenerate bondage shit and it’s honestly a bit of a mess all around. Most of his comics are but ones like flex and ASS pull the mess together in a satisfying way. WWEO doesn’t.

Feels like a Wonder Woman comic made for people that don’t like Wonder Woman.

>>149768064
>if you ask me
Nobody did, nor will.

>>149768064
>His Batman run, if you ask me, was mostly bad
Shut up you stooge. It’s far better than DP, animal man or almost every other big 2 comic he’s made outside of ASS.

>>149768082
>feels like
You problem.

>>149768064
>His Batman run, if you ask me, was mostly bad
That’s just dumb to say. One of the best modern runs on any character from either marvel or DC - modern meaning post-2000.

>>149768110
Idk I think anon was pretty spot on. Earth One in general was supposed to be for people who don’t typically like the characters. It’s a lot like absolute and a bunch of other out-of-continuity attempts DC has made over the years.

>>149766665 (OP)
Nothing, it was legitimately great.

Isn't this the comic with the penis dinosaurs?

>>149768050
In the case of DCeased at least it's actually good, and Injustice sold surprisingly well for a series where Taylor was mandated to bullshit up a way for Injustice 1 to happen no matter what.

Really though I think it's mostly just the criteria being chunkier mostly self-contained runs.

>>149768213
>In the case of DCeased at least it's actually good
QFT you faggot

>>149768050
They need /a/ basic Wonder woman book but don't really have much in the way of casual reader friendly ones.
The Gotham Central book is a great idea though. No idea why you're criticizing that. Taylor's Nightwing, while twee, is also decent for casual readers.

>>149768294
>>149768213
>hi there, shill here. Just wanna say you’re wrong sweetie xD

Back to plebbit faggot

>>149768294
That’s funny because it’s mostly casuals who hate it all up and down Twitter lol. Plus it doesn’t fit the “twelve issue self-sustaining story” format at all.

I don’t see who Gotham central appeals to, let alone in the shonen reading demo. The real issue is all of the darlings at the company have had their work collected as opposed to more projects that would do better if released. Cooke catwoman and TNF are the only ones I can think of that obviously aren’t based on helping a darling’s checking account.

At least in the case of loeb his Superman Batman is actually good and appeals to the manga demo the line is clearly trying to capture with the manga sized release.

>>149767725
Based Millar knew what to do.

>>149768459
Fuck off, I was reading Gotham Central when you were in elementary school watching shitty nicktoons you waifu.
>>149768544
Gotham central is fine for readers familiar with the more down to earth Batman movies. You know teens tend to get into gritty crime stuff to feel mature right? You never saw goodfellas or sopranos or anything like that? Hell that’s a large part of the appeal to The Dark Knight or The Batman.

>>149769008
>Fuck off, I was reading Gotham Central when you were in elementary school
No you weren’t. Because I was in high school when it was coming out.

>>149769008
Yeah totally that’s why one piece, dragon ball super, demon slayer, etc are doing so well with teenagers. Because they’re grounded and gritty lol. A Gotham central collection is fine, Im sure LGTB faggots like you love that it made Montoya a lesbian but it makes no sense to waste a compact release on it when they’re not dir 40 year old men in dresses like you, they’re for actual teenagers who read shonen manga.

Ffs are you retarded?

>>149766665 (OP)
>who usually never made a miss,
Hideous attempt at slang. You’re clearly one of these:
>a boomer trying to sound younger
>ESL
>a bot

Which is it?

>>149768082
>weird degenerate bondage shit
fucking newfag lmao, what do you think Wonder Woman started as?

>>149769187
>"erm please follow the reddiquette for new /co/ posts idiot"
you should head back there too

>>149769145
Anon I don't think you know any actual teenagers. Which is probably a good thing.

>>149769748
A creator's real life interests or fetishes shouldn't determine what a character is about. Wonder Woman had some bondage elements but it wasn't about sexual s&m on the surface.
A lot of boomers got fetishes from the death traps in Batman '66, death traps were a typical part of Batman villain modus operandi since the beginning, doesn't mean you need to draw sexual aspects to official Batman works.

>>149769748
Regular degenerate bondage shit.

>>149766665 (OP)
Morrison hasn't written anything worth reading since partway through JLA.

>>149769959
Almost all of his best work came after that.

Wonder Woman buckbreaks writers

>>149768294
The problem DC has is that they won't stop doing WW origin rehashes. Damn near every single WW limited series is an origin rehash. During Rucka's second run they were doing an origin rehash in the main title, an origin rehash limited series, and a third origin rehash that got cancelled before publication. If they want a basic Wonder Woman story to sell to casuals they need to have writers pick a villain from her rogues gallery, tell them to write a six issue contained story involving that villain, rinse and repeat.

>>149769748
>calls others newfag
>thinks coomer memes and head-in-the-gutter jokes are real
Ironic

>>149769781
Who are you claiming is reading shonen manga if not teenagers?

>>149767725
Grant at least use a trip when you post we all know it's you anyway

>>149766665 (OP)
Diana should've had sex with Mala for at least 40 pages and the book would've been saved.

>>149770603
that's because most writers are hacks and can't tell anything that isn't tried and true

>>149769859
I remember hearing the author talk to Terri Gross. The belief is a lot of this work was used to punish Superman for frustrations over National fucking them around despite Superman being so popular that the comics wing is called Superman Comics.

>>149770890
Teenagers (zoomers) don't really read manga, it's mostly a millennial thing. Zoomers don't have attention spans for reading.

>>149772009
Full on cope. The people devouring demon slayer and MHA and shit have been and are zoomers. Millennials hate modern manga and anime because we grew up with good manga that wasn’t just derivative knock offs of 80s and 90s series and anime that didn’t use CGI as a crutch.

>>149766665 (OP)
Only half of his comics are tolerable, and even less are good. You shouldn't be surprised that feminist propaganda is bad.

>>149767725
Great concept wasted on weird fetishshit and powerlevelfags. Wonder Woman should be so easy to write for.

>>149768104
>>149768123
Stop reading trash, and you won't think his slop is good. You only think Batgod is good, because you only read comic/manga.

>>149766692
Now that I think about it, I never heard anything about Diana from Morrison's Justice League run, but only her.

>>149772796
She's wallpaper in his JLA run.

>>149772720
>has to make assumptions about others while not naming a better Batman run anytime after 2000
>doesn’t a truakoy address that it’s better than nothing else grant has written for the big 2

Concession accepted

>>149771604
Makes sense, Lex Luthor was in one illustration.

>>149772871
Yes, I know more about his aborted plans for Hawkman than about her.

>>149772009
What is it about turning 35 that makes people like about everyone younger than them

>>149772660
How would you write her

>>149772009
This is the dumbest thing ever suggested

>>149772307
>Full on cope. The people devouring demon slayer and MHA and shit have been and are zoomers.
They only know about these franchises thanks to Tiktok, it's millennials (or zillennials, i.e. those born in 1996-1999) who actually read or watch these. Unlike zoomers, late millennials still had some attention spans to focus on mangas and animes for more than 30-60 seconds.
>>149774545
No.

>>149766665 (OP)
I liked it im not sure what issue you have with it but I find usually people who hate it dont like Marston WW and are just weirded out by it so if you dont like that you wont like this either

>>149767697
Nah theres way way more overt themes in the Morrison comics youre making it seem like its all subtle in the background but its really not.

>>149774605
>renaming a random portion of zoomers zillenials in order to not concede
>still rambling about people not reading despite zoomers clearly making up the manga reading fandom
Concession accepted bro bro

>>149774644
Disingenuous to claim Morrison’s EO is anything like golden age Wonder Woman. One is sincere in it’s writing the other is Morrison writing a if the head-in-the-gutter memereading was actually the point of the character.

>>149766665 (OP)
>I got filtered

>>149768213
>DCeased
>at least it's actually good

>>149769145
>Starts crying about the definitive Montoya story

What a loser

>>149772307
>Millennials hate modern manga and anime because we grew up with good manga that wasn’t just derivative knock offs of 80s and 90s series and anime that didn’t use CGI as a crutch.

You’re just like your parents and their generation whining that everything new is bad while everything they grew up with is good. Congratulations becoming a miserable boomer at such a young age

>>149775473
>You’re just like your parents and their generation whining that everything new is bad while everything they grew up with is good.
Or maybe, just maybe, things are actually getting worse and worse with each new generation, not just comics, but games, cartoons, movies, books, fashion, architecture, cuisine, culture, politics, everything, no? The Golden Age comics were great, the Silver Age - not so much, the Bronze Age was just a shadow of comics' former glory, and the Modern Age comics are just awful.

>>149775473
To be fair, even the Japanese are complaining about Jump's current line up

>>149775864
And this somehow has never happened before? Give me a fucking break.

>>149766665 (OP)
The Book was good.

>>149775909
Yeah, but it's significantly worse now than ever before.

>>149776036
Sure it is. Just like every other time it’s been the worse thing ever

>>149766665 (OP)
Best Wonder Woman.

>>149767725
Every fucking hack writer in existence has had the same idiotic thought process, and it's precisely why she's had nothing but terrible runs for decades.

>>149766665 (OP)
he lost his touch and megacorporation are bad.

>>149770876
>doesheknow.jpg

Morrison wrote a funny, sexy, and playful comic about an island of lesbian feminists, and 4chud considers the essence of Wonder Woman as an exegesis of a sacred text.

>>149776208
>>149775909
>>149775473
Absolutely seething lol sorry you hate your parents kiddo.

>>149772009
This is correct. Someone on /a/ posted a chart of an average age of various franchises and most "shonen" manga had fans in their 30s.

>>149778471
>Morrison wrote a funny, sexy, and playful comic
no he didn't

>>149776291
It's the correct thought process, but they have to be better writers.

Talking about Wonder Woman, did any material of her accidentally fall under public domain? Like those superman's newspapers stripes did?

>>149766665 (OP)
Shut up, Millar.

>>149780073
Wonder Woman's had a ton of writers, quite of number of all right runs. "This character can only be interesting if she's written by the best writers alive (who have no interest in writing Wonder Woman)" mean she's not a particularly interesting character. She's first and foremost a merchandise mascot and little more than that.

>>149767345
This

Like Green Lantern there's a clear demarcation of "this is before Morrison was told about 5G" and "this is after"

>>149766665 (OP)
If only he hadn't turned Steve into an ugly black guy I'd have been able to fap to Diana trying to collar him

>>149766665 (OP)
>usually never made a miss, wrote THIS?

Dan Dare is is one of the most iconic British comic characters, going back to his original appearance in 1950. He's very much an optimistic pro-Britain character, not unlike Buck Rogers, but specifically modeled on WWII Fighter Plane aces, just put in space. But because the character was quite a patriotic one, when Morrison got the chance to write a series it was all about how horrible Britain was and how foolish Dan Dare was for believing in it. Morrison's run ended with Dan Dare's arch-enemy anally raping him then having him dragged off and thrown in jail (because the Government has been taken over by the villains). It ends with Dare "winning" because his allies detonated a Fusion bomb, killing him and the bad guys... and a lot of innocents. It's unclear how big the explosion is, but it seems very likely it destroyed all of England. We're given a quote where Dare says he's glad the villains showed him how bad England had become, how the "good" England only ever existed in his head, because that meant the good version could never be destroyed.

I'm not a fan of Morrison. I'm glad some people are, and there's some stuff of his I've enjoyed, but the idea that he's done a good job with every character he's been put on doesn't hold muster. He's often hamfisted as fuck and completely wrong for a character. He'd be better if he stuck to his own creations.

>>149781364
So based Morrison had deconstructed the Red Scare-era propaganda hero and exposed Thatcherite England for what it was, and for some reason you are unhappy about it?

>>149781364
Thatcher made almost every left-leaning comic writer insane. Alan Moore wrote V for Vendetta. Milligan was one of the few who actually kept his head.

>>149781364
It's weird that Garth Ennis of all people made a more hopeful Dan Dare comic than Grant Morrison

>>149766665 (OP)
Having read his commentary on the series, basically he wrote it like "what if submitting to loving authority actually saved the world" IE: what if a throuples specific kink worked for the entire planet?

>>149781683
I'll take V over Dare any day. Multiple times over.

>>149781446
It is very easy to write a trite deconstruction that just isn't enjoyable. If the story goes down a predictable path, the characters are not likable, the wit isn't there, and there's not even decent action, you're left with a slog that would have been better as an essay. That's partly what was wrong with his Wonder Woman run too. He had things to say (and they weren't all things that meshed well or needed to be there), but he just didn't provide us with a story we wanted to read, or characters we wanted more of. Compare to Flex or even Seaguy, where he definitely had something to say but managed to make the ride FUN. Sometimes Grant Morrison just gets too up his own ass and forgets how to make a story people want to read. That happened with his Wonder Woman. It certainly wasn't the worst WW stuff out there (lolno), but it just wasn't a good book.

>>149780894
>Like Green Lantern there's a clear demarcation of "this is before Morrison was told about 5G" and "this is after"
Funny how it was 5G that broke him

>>149782165
The execution was lacking but I did like the concept of "allow the world you love that's been kept in stasis for as long as you've known it to change so that the universe as a whole can continue to exist."
Though an argument can be made that it's better for things to definitively end than to continue in a diminished state.

>>149768544
>I don’t see who Gotham central appeals to, let alone in the shonen reading demo. The real issue is all of the darlings at the company have had their work collected as opposed to more projects that would do better if released.
A lot of it is because these writers refuse to put more focus on the action over the soap opera stuff. They really don't want to write about superheroes and prefer melodrama about fucked up people instead.

>>149776291
Those writers suck- they understand the issue but can’t execute well- give me WW and she’ll be one of the most popular characters out right now guaranteed lol

>>149780557
That’s exactly what I was going at in the original post- she’s flawed conceptually because she was created to be a mascot first and not a character, quite simple- there is Wonder Woman myhtos or lore- just a mash up of ideas from different writers with the goal of selling something to women instead of making something good, and that’s not their fault, when you’re put in the writers seat for Wonder Woman your mind is immediately geared toward “how do I make woman character” and instead of “how do I write good story” because that’s her entire essence, the woman, she has nothing else going for her

With that being said I could make something good with what she has established already but the character really needs a complete total recall, but again that’s too much work

>>149767725
Just make her a magical girl already.

>>149769859
Schuster was even more based than I thought.

>>149785956
You know nothing of what you speak.
People act like she's complicated. She's not, but sure, turning her into a mascot made things trickier. But tear it all down and she's very much in the same vein as - of all things - Fred Perry's Gold Digger or Adam Warren's Empowered. She was a cute good-hearted heroine that did indeed titillate a little, in a lighthearted book that did "kitchen sink" adventures (one minute fighting alien robot tiger-gorilla hybrids, the next minute up against desperados in the old west, or flying shark-mermaid women). There was a decidedly moral vein there, and sure there was feminism (some of it very unique to the creator), but it was also about a girl that could block bullets with her bracelets, race a car, and easily pummel a cadre of soldiers, all because she was trained real good and knew anime-style chi/ki bullshit about being able to turn her mental energy and concentration into a damn good punch.
We get bad stuff from people trying to be too serious and overthinking it, like Morrison. The biggest problems the character faces are
(1) Too many reboots and rethinkings
(2) Her powers have been totally changed from how she was written originally, changing her from a fun/laughable "trained real good" backflipping punchy character that COULD be killed with a sword into a flying brick that could survive a nuke
(3) The sorts of people that could give her the lighthearted slightly-sexy adventure stories she was made for are gatekept away from the character because she's just too iconic to let them touch.

Frankly I suspect someone like /co/'s own Psu & Gunwild of Cassiopeia Quinn could do a damn sight better take on her than Morrison ever could.

>>149785956
We've had over 80 years of Wonder Woman comics, a live action series, a couple direct to video animated movies, and a couple of live-action movies. Rather than "make a good Wonder Woman story" your attitude should be to just make a good original character because she's pretty locked-in to what she is now.