Thread 149861278

He's right. It's been four decades since Watchmen and comics have failed to mature, to learn the lessons of his comics. The fact that most comics are still about "heroes" and "villains" shows how small-minded and unserious comic book readers and creators are. Real life doesn't have heroes and villains. Part of the reason Watchmen is so compelling is that it exchanges the hero/villain paradigm for an ensemble of characters with competing ideologies, no one of which is held up as correct. Watchmen is an example of the kind of comic book that the industry could have striven to emulate instead of the boring schoolyard battles that now dominate the medium.

Alan "eternal sophomore" Moore is a silly person.

No one wants to read the life of a boring asshole.
That's why people want heroes and villains that need a punch in the face.

Fact check: false.

>>149861278 (OP)
If you're tired of supes just read actual books or indies man. You're expecting too much from what amounts to glorified merch advertisements

>>149861278 (OP)
>comics have failed to mature
comics are mostly superhero stuff. outside of that, it can be either kiddies stuff or pretty mature. but its mostly superhero shit.

>>149861278 (OP)
Moore's own material feels like it was written for angsty teenagers though

>>149861278 (OP)
>Real life doesn't have heroes and villains
real life doesnt have flying men either

> no one of which is held up as correct
nite owl and silk spectre are unironically heroes, ozymandius was all-but-stated to be in the wrong

>>149861327
Ozy saved humanity from armageddon lol.

>>149861344
>Ozy saved humanity from armageddon lol.
tales of the black freighter literally acts as a mirror to the plot of the main story, and its about a guy who kills his own village in an attempt to save it

this is pretty damning of ozymandius, that his attempts to save the planet were ultimately unnecessary and was the same kind of cataclysm he was hoping to avoid

>>149861327
Let's be honest here, everyone saw Rorschach as the good guy of the story.
People loved when he killed criminals back in the day and people still see him as the hero to this day.

I kinda love how even the things that are supposed to make him broken only make him more aspirational for being a good guy that does the right thing in spite of everything else.

He succeeded in making a good guy endearing even when he is punished for being good. I find that hilarious.

No one in the entirety of human history has ever been less right about everything they ever did.

>>149861278 (OP)
Wasn't he originally upset that superhero comics, ostensibly originally a medium made to be enjoyed by children, are currently made exclusively for adults?

>>149861278 (OP)
>right wingers are childish for liking superhero entertainment
>left wingers are enlightened for seeing me, a geriatric anarchist superhero comics book writer, as a pundit
Moore is more ridiculous than that right wing rag he had in Watchmen

>real life has no heroes/villains
Recently, left wingers are crying about executed vets in Florida, one of them being a murderer rapists. Pretty sure they were villains and it was heroic to execute them

>>149861411
Moore implied Rorschach to be a racist chud and hoped people would pick up on that, but no one did, or when they did they agreed with Rorschach's implied chud beliefs and Moore is permanently asshurt over that.

>>149861411
>everyone saw Rorschach as the good guy
lmao nope

>>149861278 (OP)
Watchmen was never good. Deal with it.

>>149861687
It might be the one genuinely great comic book. All else is slop or slop adjacent.

>>149861278 (OP)
>Real life doesn't have heroes and villains
I beg your pardon, thats untrue. Obama is clearly a hero, Trump and Putin are clearly villians.
What you mean is that there is no absolute good or bad. And not every hero wins. Or some hero is the others a villian.
And your argument why comics are suffering or dont flourish is contradicted by Manga or Videogames that mostly arnt that deep or just go heroes vs villians. Those mediums are on average the quintessence of being uncomplex good vs evil.

>>149861318
I bet you to differ. But sure most of his stuff panders to a certain group of people.

>>149861327
I agree with you. Silk Spectre and Nite Owl are clear defined heroes. And Comedian is a clear defined villian here.

>The fact that most comics are still about "heroes" and "villains" shows how small-minded and unserious comic book readers and creators are
it's literally just american comics that are like this.
every other comics tradition started making "adult" comics that weren't just pulp slop in like the 30s.

>>149861278 (OP)
>story about people wearing colored fantasy outfits
>giving themselves childish names
>wants to make "mature" stories about that

Seriously, when will he grow up?

>>149861411
I agree. Rorschach is the main characters here. And his introduction makes it clear that he is a hero that is very narrow minded or brutal in his solutions.
We even get nearly a full book why he became so shizo, a broken hero. Thats a clear anti-hero or action-hero. I mean Mad Max or Dirty Harry are heroes that was formed by harsh reality.

>>149861278 (OP)
My mom and my dad were detained by the marine when I was 8 months old

I dad was distributing printed papers who called the people to fight the dictatorship by democratic voting

They were walking back home with my pregnant mom and an american friend, the fact the american was there was problematic for the regime so they kidnapped them, my mom 8 months pregnant wouldn't stop crying

This is all true, but according to you there is no villains or heroes here

The marines had a right to do so

>>149862157
Stfu trannyfag

>>149862231
Zogbots deserve it

>>149862263
They do

People are experiencing this over not being born in the place they live

They broke no laws getting there, arrived with a temporal visa and their only crime was not wanting to leave or not being capable of

>>149862276
What are you trying to say?

>>149862301
Villains exist

Violently coherse innocent people to comply with their violent wishes

>>149862308
Yes, zogbots are villains

>>149861278 (OP)
This, but unironically.

From Hell is his masterpiece.

>>149862325
It hit me now, what if I wasn't 8 months old, what if I died there

Wouldn't even be a crime would be a natural abortion caused by legally induced stress

>>149861658
>>149861685
any proof of this?

>>149862362
Is on the cover

>>149862332
Good and evil actions are real

>>149862338
Good

>>149862397
Every time this happens

To someone who posted here and was well beloved

That are forced to get an abortion after being dettained for weed

Or they get arrested a get their teeth broke down by the police

Another one of this 1/1 creatures are created

To never forget nor forgive

Is a Rorscharch notebook, what do you see in it?

>>149862231
>>149862276
What language do you speak? Because none of this makes sense in English.

>>149862338
Good

>>149862231
>>149862276
>>149862428
What language do you speak? Because none of this makes sense in English.

>>149862231
>>149862276
>>149862415
What language do you speak? Because none of this makes sense in English.

>>149862433
Is an universal translator on lisps

>>149861278 (OP)
He look like a hobo so I will never take him seriously

>>149861278 (OP)
>Watchmen is an example of the kind of comic book that the industry could have striven to emulate instead of the boring schoolyard battles that now dominate the medium
And that's the reason the comic book industry is in the shitter, because rather than do their own thing they'll copy Watchmen over and over and over and over again until it's as worn out and useless as a cumrag
Just like all the other superheroes who people get bored of for being "too childish" and try to force "maturity" and "meaning" onto when they really mean cynicism and bitterness, and without recognize the root issue is that they've grown up but refuse to let their characters do the same and demand they stay trapped in the eternal cycle of adolescent fantasy they've convinced themselves they scorn now that they're adults

Seriously, they're cape comics. They're stories about funny dressed extraordinary people living out the fantasies of children who aspire to live free, empower the weak, and stop bullies. If you're trying to impose that kind of mindset onto real life because you can't accept the world is stupid and complicated, that's one thing. But to do the reverse and demand the fantasy of capeshit try and force real life standards onto itself, only to berate it when it falls short, is the epitome of spoiled and stupid.

Seriously, for the love of god, we don't need more Watchmen books, and I'm pretty sure that fat pissed off neckbeard would agree. People got the wrong lessons from it the first time, we don't need to keep doing it.

>>149862556
Superheroes should be a mix of both

>>149862582
If you're going to demand that, then at least have the decency to make an original story with that angle in mind. Don't decide that Spider-Man needs to be "more mature" all of a sudden and start killing people to prove how adult he is, and then balk how he's no longer Spider-Man when people roll their eyes at his forced death threats and brooding.

Alan Moore doesn’t understand that the hottest places in hell are reserved for cowards who chose to stay neutral in times of great moral crisis
Cowardice only allows evil to flourish

>>149862812
I don't demand that

>>149862867
Dante isn't a biblical prophet

>>149861278 (OP)
Alan Moore fags are broken records. You all sound like pic related.

>>149863055
>NERDS ARE FUCKING NAZIS WHO WANT TO KILL ME AAAAARGH
FUCKING WHY
WHY ARE THEY LIKE THIS? I DON'T UNDERSTAND

>>149863055
So is this Ritesh himself just spamming his own takes in a misguided attempt to drum up some relevancy, or someone who just screenshots all his posts and uses them as bait? Because I’m not sure which option is sadder.

>>149862257
Sorry, thats the truth. There are persons who you can call a hero or villian. In our world exists alot of black and white.

>>149863885
imagine still defending Obama at this day and age.
and the Putin obsession, it’s so obvious that you’re a government agent.
you know Ukraine thanks to Obama is a country where people literally can’t vote anymore? elections have been suspended indefinitely. and the epidemic of military desertion is obvious to anyone looking at the media.
I can’t tell if you’re real or fed, but you’re a total lost cause.

>>149861278 (OP)
>The fact that most comics are still about "heroes" and "villains" shows how small-minded and unserious comic book readers and creators are.
That wasnt the point, he liked that comics were that simple because they were for kids and didnt want superheroes to become faux mature political screeds.

>>149861278 (OP)
Writers trying to be the next Alan Moore is exactly why comics suck. No one can just do small stories.

>>149862204
No one cares about Tom King's fanfiction. Just like Before Watchmen.

>>149862362
It's literally the fucking text of the comic Watchmen

>>149861278 (OP)
Anon, Walking Dead was super popular.

>>149861411
No, Rorschach is a little bitch who cannot handle the slightest bit of cognitive dissonance and commits suicide by blue dong.

>>149861312
ONLY in USA. In Europe is VERY different.

>>149864366
Yeah in Europe you get decapitated if someone doesn't like your comic.

>>149861278 (OP)
Comics seem to be incapable of being anything other than juvenile.
When they're trying to appeal to children, they become 0 IQ slop that doesn't make any sense, like Magneto's magnetic powers affecting only things relevant to the plot and ignoring other obvious sources of metal.

Or when they try to appeal to adults, they become a total edgefest with every character simultaneusly smoking, drinking, doing drugs, and fucking whores while living in a rundown apartment, or throwing babies into a woodchipper just for the heck of it. While it may be restricted to 18+, nobody above the age of 13 cares about it.

>>149864337
where’s the proof that Alan Moore intended for Rorschach to be thought of as unlikable or bad?
it’s rare but not unusual for a protagonist who’s generally "good" to also be portrayed as having some racist or otherwise backward tendencies
Uncle Hank or whatever his name was form Breaking Bad is a good example

>>149864366
>eurocomics
Nobody gives a shit about Asterix

>>149864425
Guess you have BEVER read a Crumb comix. Or Love and Rockets.

>>149864456
Because they let it end except for several special occasions. Compare with how Marvel/DC treats its properties.

>>149864471
Hmm lets say, yep nobody above the age of 13, specifically a 13 year old from the 70's would ever give a single shit about this slop

>>149864491
You can't end something that doesn't even have a story, that's just called being cancelled

>>149864559
>Spider-man having random stories GOOD
>Asterix having random stories BAD

>>149864626
Asterix is all random stories. But that's fine because it's a comedic comic. The problem is it still has no actual end goal the same way capeshit comics don't.

>>149864521
in fact, if a 13 yo boy liked something, that would indicate to me to stay away from it.

Comics books came from illustrated magazines, newspaper strips and pornography. Comics were printed on the cheapest paper with such low profit margins that unsold copies stopped being sent back to the suppliers. Comics were disposable entertainment with short creative turn arounds leading to all kinds of problems. So much of the entrenched problems of comics are industry specific issues of the medium that became entrenched in the creative side. And the audience for all this stuff, especially superhero comics, have never particularly been fond for the actual medium, they prefer the superheroes themselves, leading to constant issues in trying to do different things. Industries outside these entrenched issues have created a bunch of stuff that feels more appealing, even when it sometimes is of poor quality itself, because it doesn't have the same cultural baggage. And now we have an online comics social media bubble more popular than the books themselves, with people talking about them but not buying them because people simply don't want to read or give things a try.

Rec list mentality of read x, y and z further entrenches the same stuff getting reprinted and people with the same knowledge with anything even slightly below the surface treated like absolute garbage or some hidden gem, even if it is something rather mainstream. All because the audience is so firmly stuck in their ways and the industry is stuck with people doing the same things. And that doesn't even touch the comic book shop model, which most creatives now would rather destroy in favour of the book shop model where their books might actually sell.

>>149864769
>The problem is it still has no actual end goal the same way capeshit comics don't.
And? Can't a comedy for kids be a comedy for kids?

>>149864859
Reatrd

>>149864769
if it ended, how would the creators make money? of course it has no "ending goal"

>>149861278 (OP)
Moore ultimately said superhero comics should be made for kids. He made comics like Miracleman and Watchmen for teenagers, and he regretted it.
Why is everyone falling for OP's bullshit?

>>149864881
nope, just smarter than the average nerd who would just hand his cash to Lucas or spieldberg or Marvel.

>>149864966
Cope

>>149864869
That's not the issue.

>>149864882
Then that goes back to what anon already said >>149864559

>>149864984
nope, here we finally come to the heart of the matter: US's pop entertainment sux cuz it's been ran by the little hats for decades. Glad am NOT an American, it would have been mentally detrimental to grow up in "America". No wonder you're all brain dead.

>>149865136
I'm not american you fag

OP here is actually misunderstanding Moore's point
>

I will always love and adore the comics medium but the comics industry and all of the stuff attached to it just became unbearable ... Hundreds of thousands of adults [are] lining up to see characters and situations that had been created to entertain the 12-year-old boys – and it was always boys – of 50 years ago. I didn't really think that superheroes were adult fare. I think that this was a misunderstanding born of what happened in the 1980s – to which I must put my hand up to a considerable share of the blame, though it was not intentional – when things like Watchmen were first appearing. There were an awful lot of headlines saying 'Comics Have Grown Up'. I tend to think that, no, comics hadn't grown up. There were a few titles that were more adult than people were used to. But the majority of comics titles were pretty much the same as they'd ever been. It wasn't comics growing up. I think it was more comics meeting the emotional age of the audience coming the other way.
I'm sure he's in favor of all the Scholastic GNs that are popular with boys now. He wishes the adults would grow up and stop reading/watching capeslop. Instead they should read his horrorslop I guess.

>>149864861
It seems to me that, at no point in its entire history, did either the creators or the consumers of comics ever once pose the question of whether comics could be art or literature. They completely accepted that it's just for slop and never anything else.

>>149861278 (OP)
Alright OP, I like your moxy so I’m gonna ask you: how would you pitch a comic in the style of someone who’s taken the lessons of Moore to heart? Can be an original or established IP, what’s your narrative, structure, overarching message? Is it long running or a single composed short story? I wanna hear, not to be condescending but I’m genuinely curious what you or Moore wanted to see the future of comic books to look like

>>149862867
Absolutely correct

>>149861462
I stopped reading when he compared Rorschach to The Shadow rather than The Question, the Steve Ditko character he is a direct expy of because Moore's initial pitch for Watchmen used the Charlton characters.

>>149865200
These threads are almost pointless to try to clarify and correct. People like OP will hide behind Moore, all the while misinterpreting what he said to fit their worldview, while attacking their perceived enemies. They don't care about the truth.
Meanwhile, people who hate Moore and always respond to these threads don't care about the truth either. They will also misinterpret what Moore said or wrote and use it against him. OP and his opponent are two faggot peas in a pod.
Occasionally, a stray anon will catch this truth, but that's rare.

>>149863939
+15 rubbles, now fuck off.

>>149865240
>the question of whether comics could be art or literature
South American creators like the Argentians Héctor Germán Oesterheld and Alberto Breccia saw comics as literature. There have been plenty of artists in the underground scenes of the 70s into the indie scenes of the 80s or 90s who viewed comics as art or literature. The problem is that the mainstream American comic book is either big 2 cape slop or generic Image sci-fi/horror indie. Or something satirising or parodying the proceeding two. And the audience is as much the problem as the industry because getting people outside their comfort zone is practically impossible.

>>149865400
Cope libturd

>>149865471
So, you lakhta shills do come here with their metodichkas.
And of course you love doing your "you're doing what I'm doing" shit AKA "ur le government agent"
Huytsa sosni naprimer, pidorashka .
>elections
That's funny coming from your kind, lmao

>>149865323
>>149862903

>>149865483
Retarded babble

>>149865515
>zero arguments
>bot-tier response
Olgino's not sending their best, huh.

>>149865526
Schizo

>>149865609
>d-d-don't call me out
>le schizo
Aww, you were talking so much shit straight from your Kremlin-curated metodichka just a few posts ago and now all you have reverted to literal one/two-word bot responses, lmfao.

>>149865645
Retarded amerilard

>>149864366
>Euroslop
All childish ripoffs of western non-cape comics

>>149862391
What does that have to do with what I said?

>>149865669
Pidorashka, sosni huytsa

>>149865703
Funny

>>149865732
What will be funny is when your curators send you to the frontlines for being a shitty shill
Hope to see a video of you soon. :3

>>149865741
A shill for reality

>>149866226
>he's still that hungry for his 15 rubbles
Lmao. Back to dolbilnya, shill.

>>149864884
Teenagers are kids too

>>149865400
what I said is true

>>149866514
Nobody with IQ in triple digits is falling for your retarded RT propaganda and manyamirok, pidoranchik.
To the conscription office you go, you cowardly cuck. Or post your address, I may redirect kind conscription officers right to your house so they could help you do some good for your country. :3

>>149866535
Im an American you fat retard. I’m just sick of you Feds and your retarded forever wars. Many Americans are, and you’re not going to fool people in this thread into thinking I’m russian

>>149861462
You can spam the screencap of your posts as much as you like, it still won't make them any less retarded. Hilarious that you immediately get it wrong by thinking Rorschach is based on the Shadow

>>149866580
>literal texas-oblast posting
>muh feds
Huytsa sosni, chmonya 15-rubblevaya :3

>>149866594
>muh feds
I don’t see any other explanation. I don’t know how anyone in this country could still defend NATO and Ukraine

>>149866635
>doubles down on his shitty Kremlin-curated metodichka
To the conscription office, coward.

>>149866653
>location: eglin airforce base

>>149866750
>even more kremlin metodichkas
To the conscription office, you cowardly zigger.
Also keep pretending you don't understand basic russian. You're not fooling anybody regardless, but it's funny watching you try, like you're thinking you're clever (you're really, really not.)

>>149866785
>literally everyone who doesn’t support Ukraine is Russian
yeah, it’s retarded

>>149866821
>n-no just ignore my literal shill talking points curated by the kremlin
You are retarded, yes, And everybody would be happy when garbage like you dies.
I hope your mother dies of cancer by the way.

>I'm totally le american here's [every RT propagandist talking point at once], do I fit in yet fellow americans?
Imagine being so stupid, you think you're fooling anybody at all?

>>149866860
>don’t actually refute the facts! just call him Russian! Russian Russian Russian
2016 broke your brain

>>149866269
Kys

>>149866905
>appeal to muh 2016
>my propagandist garbage I'm paid to shill is le facts
You're not foolingt anybody, you subhuman piece of trash. You're not smart and your curators will send you to the frontlines. And I will watch a drone video of you and laugh my ass off :3.

>>149866888
Obsessed tard

>>149866929
>turned its shitty bot back on
Lmao.

>>149866932
feds are renowned atp for their psychopathic behavior, so Im not surprised by that

>>149861278 (OP)
Alan Moore is a midwit and the plot of his famous comics, Watchmen, V, From Hell, Killing Joke, the Superman stories, Swamp Thing etc are all middle of the road, inoffensive, action/adventure stories for "young adults"
There's nothing to learn from him or his stories in any "profound" way (and that's a good thing)
His comics are all superficially fantastic - with great pacing, inspired panelling and very imaginative settings

>>149867002
>retarded zigger subhuman still crying about "muh feds"
>zigger trash accusing anybody of being "psychopathic"
Just do the world a favor and die already, you retarded shill cunt. You're achieving nothing. You are sent to shill on /co/ of all places and you fucking suck at it anyway. You're useless and you're costing money to your curators, money they could spend on better shills on /pol/, /k/ or even sosach. You're a failure and your life means nothing.

>>149867063
Im not a shill you dumbass retard. I just saw a schizo DNC shill and thought you could be reasoned with. apparently not

>>149867160
>I'm totally not a shill, I just repeat propagandist garbage over and over and over and seethe when I'm called out on it
Just die already you retarded shill cunt, you're nothing but a total failure.

>>149867199
keep coping

>>149867250
>c-c-c-cope
That's all you ziggers ever do, lmao.

>>149867267
Fag

>he ran like a bitch, but left his shitty spambot to bump the thread
Absolute little bitch behavior, lmfao.

>>149864332
Sorry, i just found the cover to be good.

>>149868106
Fag

>literally a spambot
Hey, mods. There's something in the rules about that. Just saying.
>>149868648
>bumping this shit thread

>>149862867
and as an example you post a panel he wrote of a guy sacrificing his life because he refuses to stay silent?

Once again, I pop into the monthly "we hate Alan Moore" thread to remind you all you are all fuckwits who wish you could choke on the corporate cock Alan refused to suck

>>149868106
Is the spambot in the room with us right now?

>>149870118
Shut the fuck up and die, retard.

>t-t-there n-no spambots at all
>j-just ignore all the deleted bot posts
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/149861278/#149868728
You are not fooling anybody you worthless rat. But you've been a lying worthless cunt this entire thread so it's not surprising at all.