Thread 149861814

>>149861814 (OP)
__Tim__

>>149861814 (OP)
__Dick_

>>149861814 (OP)
Your favorite Bat-Family member.

>>149861814 (OP)
Jason should've remained a villain instead of becoming an edgy anti-hero.
Damien is conceptually interesting but people have forgotten how much he was disliked for ages, DC just forced him for ages until people eventually accepted him. He's just ok and fine as a Robin.
Tim hasn't successfully been able to break out as his own distinct character like Dick has, DC half-heartedly tries to make him his own thing every now and then and he clearly has fans within DC but he lacks quality solo stories.

>>149861814 (OP)
Still Tim. The answer is always Tim.

>>149861814 (OP)
Well Jason was always the “edgy one” of the Robins, but Damian came along and he’s both “the edgy one” and “blood related son” so seems like Jason?
But in all honesty it’s just Tim, like you can have him hang up the cowl and just become a private detective or something and it really wouldn’t change anything.

Jason, he brings nothing to the table anymore.

>>149861814 (OP)

Tim, holy fuck

>>149861814 (OP)
Jason, he should stay dead

>>149861964

Jason should be pushed out and made an actual supervillain, instead of just edgy Nightwing. It's like Marvel never having the balls to go all the way with Hank Pym, neither character makes an interesting or unique hero, but they've both got great villain origins

>>149861814 (OP)
that guy with the yellow batsuit and the kamas

>>149861814 (OP)
>Which Robin is wors-
Tim

Jason should be dead again. Tim should fuck off in his little gay boat, never to return again.

>>149862027
Jason being a villain was always a terrible idea because it ignore/ his prior history and setup. Judd Winick literally got the idea after reading that piece of shit Hush.

In his last appearances as Robin, Jason was already more brutal and had less sympathy for criminals.

>>149862216
Meant for >>149862158

>>149862237
Except his last act before dying was literally saving someone who didn’t deserve it. Not that Winick cared, he really didn’t give a shit about the prior lore of Jason.

>>149861814 (OP)
Reminder the whole idea of the bat family is just nu-modern bs. All the BEST OF BATS story revolves around Batman himself not his sidekick or/and knockoff Batmen.

Killing Joke
DKR
Long Halloween
Year One
Arkham Asylum
Dark Victory
Batman: the Man for KEK
Death in the Family

Notice the trend of Batman of having a small cast of SUPPORT instead of a fucking army that jobbed

>>149861814 (OP)
Tim and it's no contest.

>>149862461
Yeah, you don’t read Batman comics.

>>149862305
That someone was his biological mother, so of course he forgave her. And if Winick really didn’t care about Jason’s prior lore, he could’ve just taken the lazy route and had Jason dump all the blame on his mom or Bruce like an immature manchild who refuses to take responsibility, but that’s not what happened.

>>149862492
Post your favorite comic NOW. Also why the FUCK is Harley in the family

>>149861841
Jason as a straight-up villain just doesn’t work. There’s a reason they made him an antihero in the New 52. He peaked with his origin story, and it’s been downhill ever since.

>>149861822
>>149861943
>>149862005
>>149862481
Tim is seriously the only Robin I could honestly see the Bat Family doing without. Even Stephanie was a more interesting Robin than that nerd, and she was basically Robin for like 2 minutes

>>149862542
> he could’ve just taken the lazy route and had Jason dump all the blame on his mom or Bruce like an immature manchild who refuses to take responsibility, but that’s not what happened.
Except that’s literally what happened dumbass, the entire point of UTH was Jason doing everything he could to get back at Bruce for not killing Joker.

>>149862628
He didn’t blame Bruce for his death, idiot. Jason even forgave Bruce for failing to save him by the end of the story. And what really made him angry was the fact that Joker was still alive and there were other victims after him.

>>149861841
>>149862591
Jason shouldn't be associated with Gotham anymore, his origin can still be the same obviously but he should've in-canon distanced himself from there afterwards. Can be the bootleg Punisher DC wants him to be but have him based in another city.

>>149861841
>lacks quality solo stories
Same can be said of virtually every character

The Reason Bruce keeps Jason around is because he sees Jason not only as the son he failed once but also he sees Tommy in him, and Bruce hides the fact that Tommy was right in many things about being a Hero, Batman respected The Hitman and Bruce sees Jason as The Hitman's legacy.

Has no one ever thought about this, mainly after all these years where Bruce kept the Noonan's bar intact and alive behind the scenes? and that he still goes there and the wall still has a picture of him and tommy and the bar's crew when most of them were alive?

>>149862591
>tentacle monster Jason
Of course it didn’t work back then, and it wouldn’t work now either.

>>149862793
I’m glad the upcoming comic is finally going to put the shitty idea of taking Jason out of Gotham to rest.

>>149862767
Lmao that’s not it, in both cases it’s Jason lashing out like a manchild. Winick’s didn’t think readers got the point so he doubled down in the movie.

>>149862935
But that’s it, and the movie was made to please Batmanfags because they couldn’t accept the ending of Batgod being wrong.

>>149863147
The movie plot was all Judd Winick. He always saw Jason as a villain from the start.

>>149861814 (OP)
Damian.

>>149861814 (OP)
Damian, because blood comes before adopting someone else’s kids.

>>149861814 (OP)
Never liked Damian, he is basically written like a girlboss character, "bad ass and intimidating marysue" despite being a small boy with barley any experience. Unless he encounters a female character, then of course he all his marysue statues gets removed so that he also can get beaten up, rescued or outsmarted by said girlboss for the entire storyline.

>>149863236
In film production, the writer usually provides the script, but the director, producers, editors, and studio can all make changes during production. Writing is just one part of a collaborative process, so even if Winick wrote it, the final movie could end up very different from his original vision.

>>149863530
Except Winick’s said he was happy with how it turned out. Listen anon, Winick has always been a terrible, dogshit writer. This is the same man who thinks Hush is a good story and that having HIV is awesome, there’s no need to defend him,

>>149861814 (OP)
Jason in the Bat Family.

>>149863560
What did you expect him to say if he didn’t like it? The movie is shit, please don’t watch it? People lie all the time to make themselves look good, and Winick was no exception.

>>149862935
The movie doesn't disprove anything he's saying though. Bruce's excuse doesn't work because it makes Bruce sound like he's just one death away from continuing to do it. The story & movie actively demonize Bruce.

Damian succeeded Tim as the merchandise mascot of choice, Jason is dead weight both in storytelling potential and as someone who sells product.

>>149863745
Winick has always said his Jason was a pure villain.
https://www.cbr.com/the-bat-signal-judd-winick/
>Jason is a bad guy. I do Jason as a villain-a villain with very, very close ties to the home set which makes him way more difficult, and also heartbreaking.

>>149861822
/Thread

>>149861814 (OP)
Tim's the most unnecessary, but out of those two Jason, though there doesn't need to be any Robin other than Dick

>>149861814 (OP)
Every Robin after Dick was equally bad and unnecessary. It never should've been a legacy identity.

>>149862027
He should just be retconned, which has the neat effect of getting rid of everyone else, too

>>149862542
This has always been a revision. Jason's whole thing was he was like a little brother version of Dick and the baby of the Bat Senpai who would be eating chocolate cake in the kitchen and talking about movies with Harvey Bullock. Even at the start of the storyline where he's supposedly tough on criminals we have Batman almost beating a man to death while Jason tearfully tries to hold him back. No one ever thought of Jason as an extreme hot head who was tough on crime until he got revived and they started having to justify his anti-hero status.

>>149862461
Yes and no. Dark Victory is a story about how he needs a Robin and Death in the Family obviously revolves around Jason. You're right in the sense that Batman never had this gigantic Bat Senpai like we see nowadays (though he didn't d have Batwoman and Batgirl back in the day before they got replaced with the new Batgirl, Barbara Gordon) but Robin has always been a staple of Batman stories. They're called the Dynamic Duo for a reason.

>>149861841
Only losers disliked Damian.
Remember, this was the peak of the early Didio-era Tim glazing. He'd taken over the Titans, then taken over Bludhaven, then gotten adopted and started calling himself Tim Wayne (what a tool) and then moved all his shit into Dick's childhood bedroom without his permission.
Damian won me over the moment he pimp-smacked Tim off Dick's dinosaur.
This was peak.

>>149864073
Batman needed a Robin once they decided Dick had outgrown the role. Pretty much any darkhaired boy would do. Tim's costume was the first time Robin ever looked respectable. Attempts at making him look less embarrassing in the past were a dud.

>>149861814 (OP)
Jason, him existing takes all stakes away from Batman and Robin

>>149864214
Batman needed a sidekick, but making it another Robin immediately ruined everything forever.

>>149862793
That doesn't work because if one of Batman's sidekicks went rogue and started killing people even if it was on the other side of the world, he would drop everything and make them priority number one and take them down. There's no scenario where he gets to run off and do his own thing.

It was a bad idea and should've never happened, it needs to be retconned.

>>149863530
That happens less in animation than live action

>>149862793
Jason should be in Gotham as someone retired from the world of superheroes and villains but gets dragged back in occasionally.
Tim's the one who should leave Gotham and be his own thing.

>>149864280
Then stop having Batman leave Gotham unless it's on League business & keep Jason as an anti-hero fighting things other heroes won't deal with. Simple.

>>149861839
__batman?__

>>149863964
The entire concept ruins Bruce. Batman & Robin work because there's just enough suspension of disbelief you can have Robin running around and he actually balances out Batman. When you have a Robin gets murdered it ruins the entire idea and bringing that Robin back to life to constantly remind the audience it happened just flies in the face of the entire concept of Batman & Robin.

That's part of why Dick is the perfect Robin. His backstory is simple, but with enough B.S. that you don't question why there's a kid/young adult running around with him (he's an acrobatic prodigy, his parents were killed, too, so he has the same motivation) and it gives Batman a balance. Yeah, he's this dark and tormented guy who can be really scary, but he has a heart because he took this kid in and gave him a home and good life because he knew what he was going through and he can't be all that mean and scary if he's running around with a chipper wisecracking kid every day. It humanizes him and makes him approachable for people that don't have a reason to fear him, while still allowing him to be scary for the people who do.

Once you add Jason into the mix everything goes to crap. You end up needing a reason for there to be tension between Bruce and Dick to drive him out in the first place. Then you wind up with Batman taking in a kid who had no business being Robin and getting him killed. Then you have him looking the other way and letting Joker get away with it because of his no kill rule, then since you've cycled through a couple Robins Barbara starts to feel stale which leads to Oracle and results in ANOTHER round of Batman bending over backwards for the Joker even though he's now murdered and permanently maimed TWO of his sidekicks, then you wind up with Tim, Cass, Steph, Damien, and all the other knuckleheads, and things get so edgy you wind up with this emotionless, paranoid, and sadistic Batman that doesn't get along with anyone and has an extremely bloated cast.

>>149864278
Somewhere in the multiverse there's a world where Dick told Jason to go fuck himself and pick a different name, and the world was infinitely better for it.

>>149864073
Based opinion
>>149864214
Dick doesn't ever need to outgrow the role. That came from a combination of writers wanting to write Batman solo because they thought Robin was too kiddy, but Dick being far too popular to do away with so they had to dress up putting him on a bus with giving him a team (Teen Titans) and a love interest (Batgirl who was in a different book and based out of Washington D.C. at the time) so they could say he was too busy to be Batman's sidekick. Eventually the fans demanded Robin back but Dick had become too much of a money .aker holding down his own titles so they upgraded him to Nightwing and invented a new Robin hoping to have their cake and eat it, too, and it's what's lead to all the problems we've had since. Dick needs to just always have been Robin and be based in Gotham with Batman. If you must give him Wolverine publicity where he can be in multiple books at once even if it doesn't really make sense because that's what the people want to see.

>>149864210
Lol true. What a dick move, too. The guy lives in a mansion he could've picked a different room.

I've always liked Damian a variety of reasons (though less so now that he's aged up) but ultimately I think it should just be Dick.

>>149864383
Now this would actually work. That's a great idea, Anon.
>>149864398
There's asking a lot just to have a reason for Jason to be around imo

>>149861814 (OP)
Talia should've become Batmom after Damien was accepted as Robin

>>149864622
This would've been great because not only would Jason have been easier to gloss over I could also see it eventually getting retconned that he was just some kid who made his own costume and went out trying to prove himself as Batman's potential new sidekick then getting himself killed and Bruce's whole pathos is he should've harsher and put the fear of God into him so he quit. Then he actually wouldn't be too bad as a resurrected villain who's just lashing out somewhat unreasonably because of what happened (like a standard villain origin) and if he did go anti-hero there would be less of that personal connection so it would make sense if he eventually broke away and started plaguing a different city.

>>149864683
That would've been great. Is also have liked to see a little triangle where Selina is trying to play Stepmommy to Damien a while Talia is trying to just make them into a real Bat family and the two are kind of in this catty face off with Bruce juggling them like an Archie, Betty, and Veronica type situation.

>>149864679
>>149864554
I don't hate Jason. His death exists to show that there is risks to this life & added a sense of stakes. Nowadays those don't exist but that goes into the problem of shit writing like Red Hood suffers from. I like the concept of Red Hood. I like Jason being so spiteful he tries to be Batman when Bruce was gone. I hate them trying to keep him as both the black sheep but also have him included in any big crossover with all the batfamily members. Which happens a lot. This will sound really shocking but Arkham Knight kind of did the concept better where he's forgiven Bruce in a small way & adopts his symbol but doesn't associate with him or the others anymore. Just hunting down crime bosses like Black Mask on his own.

>>149864023
He also said “Jason is a bad guy with a little “b”, not just a villain”. I guess the reason he kept saying that is because he didn’t want kids to copy Jason, which is understandable.
>>149864314
It can still happen in animation, just maybe less often than in live action.

>>149864210
>then gotten adopted and started calling himself Tim Wayne (what a tool) and then moved all his shit into Dick's childhood bedroom without his permission.
This happened at the same time, is the funny thing. Yes, Tim's dad died two years prior, but he was effectively living on his own and avoiding the adoption thing for years. Then OYL finally confirms he's getting adopted, he moves in with Bruce, he's back in Gotham working with Batman
Then Damian pops up at the same time.
DC, unknowingly, basically set the two up as the definitive Robin and the biological son won.
I know Morrison says Damian wasn't meant to be permanent(which is dumb- if DC actually kept records of their past editorials, O'Neil specifically banned any mention of Son of the Demon /because/ readers kept asking about the bat-baby.), but it was inevitable. Especially given Morrison's plans featuring him so prominently.

>>149862461
You know that Robin debuted in the 12th issue of Batman? As in Batman was a loner for only one year

>>149861814 (OP)
Damian, hands down. Some of Jason's bullshit back in the day was justifiable, or at the vety least he could fit a good Evil Robin or antihero role.

I love how this thread fell into essays about how perfect Dick is and how much Tim sucks.

>>149865087
Modern Dick's no better with how DC keeps trying to reinvent him pointlessly. But all are still in better spots than Tim.

>>149865087
Tim was great in the 90s but ultimately fell victim to corporate IP farming taking precedence over actual characters. It's never going to get better.

>>149864833
Kids hadn't been picking up any Batman comics for years before Winick ever wrote the title. He wasn't speaking to an imaginary audience.

>>149864833
He was literally decapitating people like a cartel hitman, Winick is a fucking idiot.

Reading a Dick Robin comic always makes wish I was reading Tim’s solo run. Either DC fooled a generation of people into thinking Dick is interesting, or people who read comics just have really shit taste.

>>149864986
And then they had him go to college and largely written out of the bat-books starting in 1970. Jason Todd didn't debut until 1983. O'Neil carried on what Schwartz established when he was just a writer, that dark and gritty Batman stories work better without having a Robin around lightening things up.

>>149861822
FPBP

>>149865306
That doesn’t change the fact that DC still markets Batman to kids through cartoons, toys, and merchandise. And since Jason is a Batman character, how he’s portrayed can still influence that younger audience.

>>149865372
The problem is sales. The dark and gritty stories may have worked better, but Batman was sharply declining compared to the 60s. Adding Jason didn't help, but post-Crisis, Jason's death and Tim's creation improved things from a sales standpoint.

>>149865424
That's a terrible excuse. Comic books were doing worse constantly in both companies during the 2000s when cartoons were the biggest.

>>149861814 (OP)
Tim and jason

>>149864907
Morrison’s run really fucked things up in the long run. Which isn’t to say things hadn’t been fucked up since the 2000s.

>>149865424
No kids are reading Under the Hood.

>>149864986
According to anons like this, most of Batman's stories from the 40's- 90's aren't good or worth it

>>149865131
The discussion that needs to be had is that Tim's 10 decent years, partly in the peak of comic sales, and being able to carry an ongoing for nearly 200 issues made a far more sustainable ongoing character than Jason or Damian managed.
Resurrected Jason and Damian are great premises with not a lot to show for themselves after well over a decade.

>>149862461
Several of these stories literally revolve around or happen because of Batman's sidekicks or friends.

Is there seriously anything interesting about Tim Drake as a character? Controversial or marmite as they may be, at least Jason and Damien have some interesting shit going on with them. Tim is relentlessly boring.

>>149866899
Tim is relentlessly boring because they took apart everything that made him unique and a legitimate A-lister in the 90s. It cannot be understated that he was second in DC only to Batman himself back then in terms of consistent popularity and sales, and this was when Superman had four monthlies. Tim in the 00s is a case study in how to systemically ruin a popular character in the name of corporate brand synergy.

They need to retire Tim.

He adds literally nothing to the batfamily.

>he's the best detective!
Be real for a second, if DC wanted a detective book they would make one with Batman so it would sell
>he's the smart Robin!
All the Robins are supposed to be smart, and Babs as Oracle is more useful than Tim as anything
>he needs to date Steph!
Steph/Cass has more vocal shippers these days and for some reason Jason/Steph has been exploding in popularity to the point it has about a third the amount of fanfics Tim/Steph in a span of 5 years

The only thing Tim could do to set himself apart is to go back to being the Spider-man archetype in a college setting as opposed to a high school setting. But that's never gonna happen as he can't even have a mediocre series sell enough for 12 issues, unlike Dick, where it took 24 issues of not even being himself in an absolutely dogshit book to finally reach cancellation levels. So instead he's just going to mosey around, floating around in various batbooks doing nothing, until they finally get enough balls to kill him off.

Hell, if DC ever launches a Teen Titans book again it's probably just going to be Damian unless that Teen Titans movie does come out (it won't) and Tim is somehow the Robin (he won't be, Gunn likes Damian).

>>149867129
They could go the opposite way and have him be a Batman equivalent in other Justice League teams

>>149864073
Batman just needs a good Dick to keep him sane.

>>149867007
>Tim in the 00s is a case study in how to systemically ruin a popular character in the name of corporate brand synergy.
Is that what happened? All I know is that one year, DC took a fucking sledgehammer to Tim's whole supporting cast.

>>149864907
Tim had no chance against the blood son of BATMAN. And it's because Damian's the blood son is why he'll never be gay. BAT-ROYALTY

>>149864210
Normal people dislike Damian. His entire fanbase is comprised solely of pedophiles and fujos.

>>149861964
Jason and Damian fill out different niches. Damian's Kid Batman while Jason is if Batman was like Punisher, but younger and prettier.
>>149867129
>for some reason Jason/Steph has been exploding in popularity to the point it has about a third the amount of fanfics Tim/Steph in a span of 5 years
Because people realized how much they actually had in common and how well they'd work together.

>>149861814 (OP)
damian and tim both sort of suck

>thread is about Damian and Jason
>most of the posts are people seething about Tim
Why does this character elicit such unbridled hatred in people?

>>149867747
Zoomers only know him as "the irrelevant gay Robin," so you have a combination of zoomers hating him because of that and established fans hating that he was turned into that.

>>149867747
Deflection. Tim hasn't even been treated as a major character in over a decade.

>>149866899
I liked the Red Robin run, but I like the style of the writer.

>>149867304
That's 2000s comics. "Who are we killing off or ruining this week?"

>>149864073
This blisteringly based and brave take deserves more attention.

>>149867766
Zoomers don't read comics.

>>149867129
>if DC ever launches a Teen Titans book again it's probably just going to be Damian
It'll be a Tales of the Teen Titans book and it'll star the only lineup that people actually care about.

>>149867858
We know you don't, but you still complain about them anyway.

>>149867858
The oldest zoomers are in their late 20s, there's bound to be a few in this thread.

>>149867540
>Normal people dislike Damian
You're not normal, sperg. Know your place.

>>149867791
>Tim hasn't even been treated as a major character in over a decade.

I think that's also part of the problem

>>149861814 (OP)
Both, there are not choices, both were extremely unnecessary for different reasons.
Jason Todd, reviving was stupid because he was the Gwen Stacy of the batman universe, a death that was supposed to be something to batman, while the actual reason he died, was because no one actually liked him, he could have been something cool, if he actually stayed as a villian at least, but reviving him was the main problem.
Damian is stupid because he was just a reason to give bruce a blood son, with was probably the worst batman love interest, is even worse to make him a robin because we were already on our third one (fourth one if you count Stephanie brown) as idiotic as having 9 earth green lanterns. Him being a total dick compared to the previous robins got things worse.

The real redpill is that Dick should've stayed Batman permanently with Bruce either staying dead or retiring to a non-Batman role.

>>149868207
For the two dozen people who would enjoy and keep following the book.

>>149864073
An actual post with brains! Someone make a wish!

>>149868248
As opposed to the standard three dozen people still buying comics.

>>149862461
doesn't bruce get a qt robin in DKR

>>149868155
Nerd.
>>149868207
Can't call it a redpill if it wouldn't work IRL. People want Bruce as Batman, not Dick. You dorks need to understand that.

>>149861822
Timsisters...

>>149861814 (OP)
Tim but Jason should've stayed dead or, barring that, stayed an outright villain

the gay one

>>149861814 (OP)
Both, if you actually read the batman mythos from the beginning. Only young people who started to read from 2009 and the new 52 an ownwards like both characters, because the were their first edgy characters.
Nowadays no one seem to remember both were extremely hated when both became a thing, twice with jason becoming red hood.

>>149868007
Found the shotafag.

>>149868155
>>149868333
It became even more idiotic when you know batman story happens in a 6 years time-lapse, for that same reason, they tried to reconnect the story in the time-lapse of 10 years, because it doesn't make sense with how many robins have passed on bruce guard. Is almost a year passed for every robin, and doesn't make sense with the ages of dick Grayson, jason todd, and specially Damian Wayne.

>>149867129
>if DC wanted a detective book they would make one with Batman so it would sell
that was paul dini batman, and it wasn't successful. the issue is that a batman book is going to be put up against other batman books, so its easier for those to undersell. If they wanted a decent selling detective comic it'd probably be like Sandman Mystery Theater.

>>149867791
You can thank the new 52 for that, besides dick he was the robin who made the actual standard for the cowl and design as an actual robin, heck he was the first robin to have an actual main solo book, even before nightnwing Since the 90, make your math, he just became irrelevant because dc tried to wank so hard damian and red hood, and I say this in a total neutral way, for the mere reason I'm a reader since the early 2000's
Dc making him gay was a stupid concept, and everyone who actually reads batman knows it.

>>149861993
Name one character in Batman tha bring something on the table at this point. They have all overstayed their welcome, Batman included.
>>149862216
>had less sympathy for criminals
1) wow what a villain thing to do lmao, 2) still better than Batman who had no sympathy for anything during Starlin that run, especially not the victims.

>>149868207
Batman is Bruce Wayne and Superman is Clark Kent. It was true in 1938, 1954, 1986, 2011, and for as long as these characters will exist. He can age out and die in alternate timelines like Earth Two.

>>149861814 (OP)
Dick > Damian > Jason >> Tim

>>149868805
Wrong, only nighywing is worth a damn. The rest are trash.

>>149861814 (OP)
Damian, no competition. The only guy more unecessary than him is Tim but both could not exist and nothing would change.

>>149868838
Tim, jason and Damian should have never existed. Jason is the whole reason how it was such a stupid idea.
Dick just had good luck surviving.

>>149864622
I'm okay with that because it would portray Dick as a raving lunatic and a adult taking it's frustration on a kid because he can't confront daddy since Jason didn't pick Robin. Bruce did.

>>149868207
The New 52 should have been a full reboot of all DC Continuity back to a Year 5 status quo with Batman (Bruce) on the Justice League, Robin (Dick) on the Titans, Batgirl (Barbara) on the Birds of Prey, and a 10 year moratorium on acknowledging any of the legacy characters.
DickBats and Hal's GL Color War could have continued on one of the other Earths in the new multiverse.

Damien always seemed more interesting to me as someone who could go solo, honestly. He could be someone who has some loyalty to Bruce, some loyalty to Talia, but no loyalty to Ras and not fitting in with how Bruce does things so he does his own thing. Kind of like a better Red Hood actually.

For Jason, I think after his initial Red Hood story where he ultimately forgives Bruce, he should've stopped being a vigilante. Have Bruce work something out with Jim Gordon and have him be a cop under Gordon as rehabilitation, can have a brotherly bond with Barbara too I guess.

Maybe not a popular take but I really don't think Batman needs a Robin anymore. He can have one but it's not necessary at all. He can still have an extended Batfamily who all usually operate in their own worlds but crossover once in a while.

>>149868946
Yeah? Jason was a good highlight and perfectly illustrate why Dick was just a fluke and why Batman is too unhinged to be someone's guardian.

>>149869044
Unfortunately they had a justified fear that those stories "no longer counting" would crater the future sales of both, so we got a compromised vision.

>>149869211
And now here we are with a mess of new retconned continuity that added in all this past in an attempt to ape the Silver Age & modern era pre-Flashpoint.

>Dexter has been drawing Jason non-stop for two weeks now

Just give the man a Red Hood series already, DC

>>149868500
Quit porn.

>>149868604
>If they wanted a decent selling detective comic it'd probably be like Sandman Mystery Theater.
As if.
>>149868819
>Wrong, only nighywing is worth a damn. The rest are trash.
Ass taste, nerd.

>>149864236
>Jason, him existing takes all stakes away from Batman and Robin
Cassandra Cain took away all the stakes of Bruce having child sidekicks, not Jason.

>>149867129
>Steph/Cass has more vocal shippers these days and for some reason Jason/Steph has been exploding in popularity to the point it has about a third the amount of fanfics Tim/Steph in a span of 5 years
Jason/Tim is a more popular ship than all of those combined.

>>149861814 (OP)
I really don't understand how you can hate Tim and Jason, but be a Dick fan. It's like hating Kyle Rayner and Hal Jordan but being a John Stewart fan. Hal Jordan constantly gets called the GOAT all the time but what sets him apart from Dick who gets called the GOAT, that Hal actually has a personally and feats to back him up. Meanwhile, Dick is literally a Golden Age creation that stifles his next generation on account of just being the first one.

>>149871065
I like all Robins :)

>>149865465
>>149865663
Kids still read them, and the movie made Jason more popular among younger audiences.

>>149871688
On average no. Sure the movie maybe but no one's walking away from that movie thinking Jason isn't cool being a kid when it came out.

>>149862574
I don't entirely hate the idea. I dunno if it has to be Harley, but I would like to see Batman actually help redeem someone in his rogues gallery for once. It would help just a tiny bit to justify his no-kill policy.

Bruce going through five separate Robins and three Batgirls while being an eternal thirty-something-year-old will always be funny to me.

>>149862461
>google which Batman stories are the most popular ones?
>copy paste

>>149872414
Isn't that kind of Catwoman's role? Going from a morally grey thief to something more heroic seems fitting

>>149870972
Okay then turn Jason gay and pair him with Tim, problem solved.

>>149871688
>Kids still read them,
No they don't
>the movie made Jason more popular among younger audiences.
Teenagers I suppose, not people who need to be lectured about how you shouldn't be like the make-believe character.

>>149872497
I never got the "Bruce is eternally 30" thing, he looks like a 38 year old at the youngest most of the time.

>>149873313
>Teenagers
>not people who need to be lectured about how you shouldn't be like the make-believe character.
They do need to, especially American teenagers.

>>149873561
Yeah his age has varied over the years. In 1970 there was a Brave and the Bold issue that depicted Earth One Bruce Wayne helping out Sgt Rock during World War 2. This would have put him in his 40s.

>>149872497
>>149873561
In my mind, he's currently in like his 40s.
I know the idea of a 40 something year old man doing the shit he does is ridiculous, but these are comics, I can suspend my disbelief.

>>149873918
I mean there are some crazy 40 year olds in shit like wrestling and shit that will still routinely get their teeth kicked in and not die from it, I think it suits him

>>149873918
>>149873968
Isn't Liam Neeson like, 60 something?

>>149862461
>Killing Joke
Barbra (Batgirl) being shot and kidnapped by the Joker is a major plot point
>DKR
Jason’s death is the reason he stops being Batman in this continuity and he gets another Robin half way through the story
>Dark Victory
a story about how Batman needs to be less of a loner and Dick joins him at the end
>Death in the Family
literally the story about Batman’s sidekick dying

>>149873561
>Bruce is eternally 30" thing, he looks like a 38 year old at the youngest most of the time.
To be fair that's how most comic artists draw characters even if they are 10 or 60

>>149874483
He's in his mid 70s

>>149874700
But I mean, Bruce most of the time doens't even look 30.
I get people used to look older generally, but he was always drawn kinda older looking. Even Year One, where he's 26, he looked older. when I watched BTAS as a kid I thought of Bruce as being like my parent's age, in that 35-40 range. Not 25-30.
I guess a few artists now draw him young thanks to styles changing

>>149874817
Most comic book artists worthwhile don't know how to draw young characters. It's why even teens have chiselled features.

>>149861814 (OP)
>Who is worse and more unnecessary
Batman. Remove him and all of the other unnecessary elements follow. That includes Jason and Damien.

Gotham never needed Batman, and it's all his fault we have monsters like Joker and Two-Face.

>>149861814 (OP)
Damian

>>149866145
Morrison introducing Damian as a new Robin without having any real exit plan for Tim is a big reason why Tim's gone to complete shit, and I say this in spite of how he's been going downhill since at least ID Crisis.
Part of me feels like he's unfairly maligned because he was perfectly fine in the 80s/90s, but the sentiment still feels deserved because of how badly DC has handled him. Turning him into a faggot was the final straw, a desperate last gasp for relevancy he'll never recover from.
Honestly, he'd be better off dead for real at this point. It's a mercy kill.

>>149874817
I mean, weren't most superheroes created over 30 back then? Like a lot just started as accomplished scientists.

>>149874858
Not just teens, but kids too.

>>149875374
Well Damian's like 13 canonically so he fits in that category.

>>149875426
The bottom right one is from when he was 10 lmao

>>149874973
A surprising few were college students even, like Jay Garrick
I think Batman's first origin places the Wayne killings at around 15 years prior, his age was around 8-10, so GA Batman even after having taken in Dick was about 25 years old

>>149875469
Yeesh.

>>149874972
This, you can argue Tim had higher highs back in the 80s/90s but he's been rock bottom in terms of Robins for so long that it's negated whatever good will he had from then. At least Damian and Jason are still memorable with their own personalities to this day, Tim Drake is plain white bread in human form.

>>149873561
>>149874700
>>149875374
It's called Chad genetics. Even a 10yo mogs all of us.

>>149861814 (OP)
Cassandra Cain, aka gookgirl

>>149869608
>Dex back to drawing Red Hood
DC were idiots for shooting down his RHatO Japan elseworld idea. Even as a spinoff it probably would have been better than the past 15 year’s worth of crap DC has put out.

>>149875374
For real what the fuck, do they know Damian is a kid right?

>>149876235
I still don't get why this team didn't become the red hood main book, by far the best content of red hood.
But I guess main batman writers don't want to tie in and deal with wonder woman and superman lore.
Thats the same reason starfire and dick aren't a thing anymore, while main batman writers still try to shove Barbara as dick main love interest, the same with jason/Artemis.

>>149876420
Fuck writers having to actually write right?

>>149876420
>>149876235
I miss dark trinity

>>149876420
Because the book was carried hard by the art, and the concept was nothing more than pairing a fan favorite with D-listers and throwing shit at the wall to see what stuck.

>>149862603
>Even Stephanie

yeah you lost me here

>>149876390
They've been aging him up since Jon was aged up. Soon he'll be 18 years old and nobody else will show any signs of getting older.

>>149876521
>>149876643
The only reason Rebirth RHatO was serviceable was because Lobdell had Dexter and Johnns tard-wrangling him for the first 25 issues. Once they got moved to other projects in 2018 it went to shit and never recovered. Hell, Lobdell didn’t want Bizarro or Artemis and wanted Gorilla Grod and someone else instead. I miss them too anons.

>>149876969
I can't believe it's been 12 years. Good christ

>>149876235
>>149876420
>>149876521
>>149876434
>>149876969
>>149877127
RHATO was not a good book and was a net negative to Jason by tiring him to characters nobody wanted.

>>149877316
Maybe my memory is shit but wasn’t it among the very few that kept going past its initial 6 or 8 issues and was doing alright financially? I remember Aquaman being among the best of the bunch and RHatO, Deathstroke and Green Lantern were varying degrees of okay to good, but everything else tried ditching the Rebirth tag asap and bombed pretty quickly afterwards.

>>149877373
There were a lot of terrible things in the first half that people overlooked because, like I said, it was carried hard by the art.

>>149877316
>Why doesn't DC do this, why doesn't DC do that?
It could be because the comic was selling 14,000, and since then, everything related to Red Hood has been a flop: Future State Gotham, Task Force Z, and now there's going to be a trans comic that will also be a flop.
If I were a fan of, I don't know, Babsgirl, I'd be irritated to see DC giving Flop Hood endless chances while Babsgirl, a much bigger character than him and selling more than him, has been reduced to a supporting character in other comics.

>>149869608
Maybe he does it because people pay him to do it.

>>149878489
It’s because there’s always a gimmick to Red Hood comics as a result of editorial incompetence. You can’t have a stand-alone Red Hood comic, some D-lister has to tag along with Jason, in RHAT it was Starfire and Arsenal, then Artemis and Bizarro. Then in The Hill, it was a bunch of nobodies. Then in Robin Lives! DeMatteis pissed in everyone’s mouth by making Jason into Dick’s Joker. It’s been like this ever from the Nu52 onward, but it has its roots in post-UTRH pre-Nu52 DC as a result of Winnick trying to make Jason into a wildcard antagonist.
Also, nobody gives a shit about Babs.

>>149877316
Bizarro & Artemis make more sense than Starfire & Arsenal at least.

>>149874817
>Even Year One, where he's 26, he looked older.
People in the past really did look much older than they do now. When I read that as a young person it looked right to me. Look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6kivD9S8TI

>>149879202
That's the problem: you want to use Under the Hood as a standard, but the comic is about Batman, and Jason was the villain. Every time Jason appeared in a successful comic, it was about another character, and he was either a supporting character (like Robin) or a villain, like Under the Hood and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Whenever the character had to stand on his own two feet, he couldn't take a step without stumbling. Starfire and Arsenal weren't there to be carried; they were there to try to carry Jason. And the comic ended up becoming a job for Lobdell, so much so that when Harras left, Lobdell went with him, and the comic ended.

>>149864554
I was going to disagree initially but this is a pretty good write up on what went wrong with the Robin concept, however I will say the tension between Dick and Bruce and Dick going out on his own is completely fine, it’s a symbolization of growth from boy to man, it doesn’t have to be negative, but I don’t hate Dick outgrowing Robin in the slightest, I don’t mind Jason either, because it’s Bruce making a lapsed judgement and thinking he can make another Dick and going with his heart instead of his head that comes back to bite him…now, right here is where things go off the rails, like you said the no kill rule effectively makes Jason’s death meaningless and Bruce an objectively a negative character, because you took this kid in on your intuition and got him killed knowing he wasn’t really cut out for the role, Bruce not killing the joker makes him look insane.

While death in the family is spectacular as a singular story it’s one of those ideas that suffers from “and then what?” syndrome, and every single idea afterwards has been a nosedive that has torpedo’d the Batman lore in the comics- I think Jason being the last Robin forever is fine, maybe Batman doesn’t kill Joker but they could have had him accidentally go too far and essentially put Joker out of action for a long long loooong time

>>149879703
I still think they’re a poor choice of characters because Jason doesn’t mesh well with them.

>>149867007
So what happened? How did they ruin him?

>>149879703
>>149879847
Jason being some lowly street kid with a rough life seems so small when he's placed next to a clone of a superpowered alien and a mythical Amazon.
Batstuff just doesn't mesh well with the greater DCU, especially stuff meant to be more gritty like Red Hood.

>>149861814 (OP)
Timfag got raped btw

>>149879822
The other serious problem is that Under The Hood was straight not good at all. It’s probably the reverse Green Lantern: Rebirth where instead off addressing the issues of a bad event and rehabilitating the character, it ignored much of said event, they vilified him and turned him into an antagonist. It made shit worse.

>>149861814 (OP)
Bruce

>>149879888
Identity Crisis killed his dad and made him into an orphan.

>>149879888
nta, but basically from 1989 until 2004, Tim was established as being his own Robin.He wasn't the popular perception of Jason as the reckless, headstrong, and violent kid(which isn't entirely right, but became how he was treated retroactively thanks to the starlin issues), but he wasn't Dick either. He was more introspective, less naturally skilled, more defensive
Dixon fought to keep his dad alive, because it kept him from being another kid adopted by Bruce and treated as his son, because Dixon understood that would put him in Dick's (and to an extent Jason's) shadow. It also gave him some grounding that he had to deal with for drama He had a steady love interest, a crew of friends different from Dick's with their own team who's whole thing was that they weren't just a junior Justice League or Teen Titans Two, but a group of oddball kids with offbeat stories
Then come 2004-2006- DC got rid of all of that. Steph was killed off first, then his father,so his book lost two of it's longest supporting characters, and he gets moved to Bludhaven, randomly, to free up Gotham for Batman alone. Over on the YJ side, they get reworked in Teen Titans and made far more moody and serious. Tim goes from being the sort of dorky, , self-serious but corny one on the team who could be a defacto leader but wasn't treated super-serious, to being Batman of the team. This wasn't far to what Dick was on TT/NTT, which made him come off as just a clone of Dick. Next, Kon gets killed, and that becomes a staple of the character's moodiness come the OneYearLater timeskip, where the titans book has him trying to clone him back. Bart got aged into an adult, then died within a year.
With his dad dead, Tim ends up getting formally adopted by Bruce..which made him another Robin adopted by Batman.
Then Damian gets introduced around the same time, as an ACTUAL blood son. And in time, Morrison rolls out his Dick Batman and Damian Robin plot. Which was the real sign that his era was ending

>>149879803
If this isn't a case of putting a bunch of adults to play teenagers in high school, it explains a lot about the 2000s shows doing that. And all the animes with grown-up looking 14 year olds.

>>149861814 (OP)
Kill off the Bat Family.

>>149880218
>i'm going to peg him
Tim confirmed for top.

>>149861822
This.

After Jason's killed, Bruce shouldn't have any more Robins until Damian comes along and he's "forced" to.

>>149876734
Stephanie is a hot girl, so she has a place

Has it ever been acknowledged that all the Robins basically look identical to each other?

>>149876390
Yes, but many artists just straight up don't know how to draw kids or teens, they're only familiar with adult men and women.
>>149876761
Damian is still just 14, he is usually drawn way bigger than he should be when he's with Jon tho, partly because they don't want to make it look weird.

>>149881013
Blonde chick with big tits is a big thing in anime and manga. They'd love her there. Same with Cass with how many characters just like her are there.

>>149879822
>That's the problem: you want to use Under the Hood as a standard, but the comic is about Batman, and Jason was the villain.
Do you even read the comic? Bruce literally does nothing the entire story, while Jason is the one actually taking action.

>>149880920
Tim was forced on him because he was becoming more like the sadistic Miller-Bats without a young kid around to keep him calm.

>>149881107
>because he was becoming more like the sadistic Miller-Bats without a young kid around to keep him calm.
And that's bad because....?

>>149880218
>Over on the YJ side, they get reworked in Teen Titans and made far more moody and serious. Tim goes from being the sort of dorky, , self-serious but corny one on the team who could be a defacto leader but wasn't treated super-serious, to being Batman of the team. This wasn't far to what Dick was on TT/NTT, which made him come off as just a clone of Dick. Next, Kon gets killed, and that becomes a staple of the character's moodiness come the OneYearLater timeskip, where the titans book has him trying to clone him back. Bart got aged into an adult, then died within a year.

The funny part is that the reason why DiDio did all this is because he thought the original Titans were redundant and the YJ4 should fulfill their roles instead. So Tim became Dick, Cassie became Donna, Bart became Wally and the Young Justice became the Teen Titans. This all to set them up as the "natural successors" of the DCU.

But if your plan is just to turn thse characters into the Titans, why are you trying to get rid of the Titans in the first place? It never made much sense.

>>149878489
Anybody who doesn't have a autistic fanbase is flopping at DC and any character who hasn't a brand recognition mantle or appearing in a movie get shit currently. Comics are a dying niche and all the number you've got don't represent actual buyers or readers.
>much bigger character than him
It's always the most insecure faggots who yap the most.

>>149881080
>Same with Cass with how many characters just like her are there.

>>149867129
>But that's never gonna happen as he can't even have a mediocre series sell enough for 12 issues

It's really fucked up that Tim went from having 209 solo issues of varying quality over a span of 20 years to not even being able to last 12 issues.

It may have lasted a little longer if they put a fujobait artist on it like Travis Moore as opposed to Rossmo's art, who the fujos found gross.

Kinda humbling in a way.

>>149881116
The attitude of the Bat-office at the time was "never go full DKR"

>>149879822
>Arsenal and Starfire
> carrying anything
Weird psyops since Rhato remained at the same popularity without them if it didn't get more popular with Rebirth and that no Jason fans miss them or N52.

>>149881308
What's wrong with this? Action heroes do it all the time.

>>149881042
>Damian is still just 14, he is usually drawn way bigger than he should be when he's with Jon tho, partly because they don't want to make it look weird.
I hate Bendis so much

>>149880174
This + every book that use him beat the same dead horse about Jason getting killed or killing. They rehash a story that was tailor-made for Batfags. Why would RH or Jason stans care about that. Especially when the well is beyond poisoned at that point.

Does anyone have potential man memes of the different Robins?

>>149880218
In short, he was popular specifically because he wasn't a clone of Dick or Jason or even Bruce. He was popular because he was different. So they took away everything that made him different and have spent the past 20 years confused as to why he's not popular anymore.

>>149879985
>"Robin, do you have any ideas about Jason's identity?"
>"Well I remember a story Superman told me about some Kryptonian superheroes..."

>>149861814 (OP)
I like Damian but he's the robin that ages Batman the most and something is really lost by having Robin be Batman's biological son. Easiest Robin to chop off after the next crisis and only see gains for Batman.

>>149881535
No but I have this

>>149881535
There was one for Dick I saw on twitter but the page refreshed before I could even finish reading it. I've been trying to find it for weeks now but no luck but the half I did read was amusing.

>>149881391
Excessive force. Batman and Robin were supposed to be good role models to kids, this is also why 90s Batman and Robin were never depicted having premarital sex. It had happened with Batman a few times in the 80s and later on in the 00s, but in the 90s he was all about clean living except for that one time he did Venom which was a cautionary tale against using performance-enhancing drugs.

>>149861822
Disagree and here's why. Damian doesn't work as Bruce's Robin at all. It's awkward it's always been awkward. He worked with Dickbats, their dynamic. Tim on the other hand is a perfect Robin, that should be his place. Not compelling enough for a solo, but a perfect sidekick.
So it's Jason.

>>149881973
Tim carried a successful solo for years before they took away everything that made him compelling enough to support one.

>>149881451
>They rehash a story that was tailor-made for Batfags.
It’s not even that, A Lonely Place of Dying is also a Batfag story, but it’s also really good. UTRH on the other hand is just garbage because of the pacing, the toothless ultimatum and being tied to an event.

Damien is cute so he can exist

>RED HOOD #3

>Written by GRETCHEN FELKER-MARTIN

>Art by JEFF SPOKES

>Cover by TAURIN CLARKE

>Variant covers by DOUG MAHNKE, JAE LEE, and TULA LOTAY

>$4.99 US | 32 pages | Variant $5.99 US (card stock)

>ON SALE 11/12/25

>It’s time for some rest and interrogation. What better place to do it than a quiet little cabin in the woods where no one can hear you scream?

>Unfortunately for Red Hood, he’s not going to like what he finds. No matter how much digging Jason and Helena do, the Tower’s trail twists more and more. Soon their whole world is going to turn upside down. Plus, a new metahuman enemy enters the fray—and they’ve got their sights set on our two vigilante outlaws.

Why every solicit of this reads like a shitty fanfic? And, they even shat on his hair

>>149861822
Fpbp. Jason is still best Robin.

>>149881670
"Jasons new identity....Trolius!"
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Trolius_(Earth-One)

>>149882098
>Lonely Place of Dying
> good
Whatever. UtRH is a story for Batfag because Jason is basically yet another strawman for Batman. That's why it's toothless. The only hook is that the villain is the former Robin who died.

>>149882477
most comics are just shitty fanfic with better production values

>>149882477
Just let him keep his classic hair and add a white streak. Is it that fucking hard?

>>149882771
The fact that Jason keep getting uglier haircut since the white streak made it into canon is poetry to me. Get fuck tumblr.

>>149882679
No, it’s toothless because it’s just one big theater show. Also it’s also shit because Winick didn’t go into it with the intent of being a Batfag, he did it because he read HUSH and thought it was a good story and didn’t care about Jason. Which says a lot about his tastes.

>>149877316
You're wrong

>>149882771
Seemingly is as hard as not replacing the goddamn helmet with a shitty domino mask and a hoodie

>>149883019
Sorry Dex, but RHATO sucked balls,

>>149881135
Plz understand, he's retarded, that's his motivation for pretty much everything he did.

>>149882477
First Tim, then Damian, and now Jason. Well, they'll probably both end up sucking a penis just like Tim.

>>149883128
Bro he looks like the Noid on the left.

>>149861814 (OP)
Don't understand where people get the impression Damian is a good idea. He's a shitty unlikable cunt of a character. Will eternally hate him and I hate how DC waited like seventy years to give Bruce a blood son and its this sack of shit with no charisma. And seeing Damian beat up a bunch of villains as early as he being like nine years old is shit.

>>149882947
If he really didn’t care about Jason, he wouldn’t bother showing him as a good kid like other writers do.

>>149883402
Except he didn’t even do that until YEARS after the damage had already been done and he had ruined Jason. Winick has said that he did not care about Jason until HUSH.

>>149883369
>And seeing Damian beat up a bunch of villains as early as he being like nine years old is shit.
Damian was trained from the moment he could walk. Why aren't you bitching about Dick beating full grown bad guys with just acrobatics?

>>149883454
He literally mentioned in UTH that Jason became “darker” due to the environment. Your idea that his Jason was always bad is just wrong.

>>149883496
Because Dick was an olympic-tier brick shithouse freak-of-nature.
Batman looked at Dick and thought "i will make this boy my son and heir and let him dress up like his favorite movie hero and watch him fuck up grown men with pride"

>>149883950
Wrong page. That's from Dick murdering people, not the literal child beating up a bunch of grown men in a fist fight.

>>149883903
Only to have Jason say he was always asking for it on his Batman and Robin issue.

>>149883402
It’s because he didn’t that now everyone saw him as a bad seed because he popularized him as the “bad Robin.” Then he went a step further and presented him the incompetent, reckless Robin in the movie by omitting his mom.

>>149861814 (OP)
It's like asking the question 'which is worse, testicular cancer in your left nut, or your right one'.. you don't really want either, but lucky us... somehow we ended up with both.

>>149884312
No one cares about Jason’s mom, it’s an over complication.

>>149883974
Oh Bats, you're such a loon!

>>149884842
And this is why Jason’s character has been in the shits for the last two decades.

>>149884842
No, making Joker the centerpiece of UTH was the complication.

>>149883950
>Because Dick was an olympic-tier brick shithouse freak-of-nature.
And Damian was trained by the greatest assassins to succeed his grandfather and take over his organization. You're just a Dickfag malding about the blood son.

>>149883128
I think the hoodie can be cool if he keeps the helmet. I love the right's design

>>149883496
>>149883950
>>149883974
>>149885391
Both Damian and Dick being able to beat the shit out of grown ass men when they were teenage boys is retarded. And being trained by the League of Assassins isn't impressive considering what a bunch of jobbers they are.

>>149883950
Even Bruce thought Dick was better than him at some things from day one.

>>149884022
That happened years later, and Jason didn’t say it like he was blaming himself. It was more that he later accepted he did screw up big time, which is a completely different attitude.

>>149884312
Pretty much every story of his that shows Jason as Robin portrays him as a good kid, not the “bad seed” you’re pushing.

>>149890664
Except he didn’t, and not when it actually mattered dumbass. Post the times in UTRH where he actually showed Robin Jason as a good kid instead of the drug dealing decapitating murderer that he became.

>>149890821
There are pages in UtRH that mention Jason changed during his time as Robin. Things got darker for him because of the bad environment, and that’s what made him more brutal.

>>149891454
Like I said, it doesn't show it when the story actually needs it, and as a result, Jason looks like a unhinged monster which is what Winick clearly wanted. He didn't care if Jason looked bad, he just wanted pic related.

>>149861814 (OP)
Tim, easily. Been saying since before the fag was actually turned into a fag.

>>149891806
>l-it doesn't show it when the story actually needs it
Faggot

>>149861822
I agree.

>>149882477
>keeps getting Dick's second seconds
>his barber fucked his shit up

Why does DC hate Jason so much? lol

>>149882947
>No, it’s toothless because it’s just one big theater show.
What do you think a strawman is? Of course that shit is staged.
> write a Batman story
> don't care about the villain he use
So,a Batfag.
>>149883128
Nobody would mind the domino if Jason looked hot and his age.

>>149883496
It's also stupid but there is a difference between a violent kid taking down a untrained twig like Joker and another taking down a man built like Deathstroke. Let's not pretend the retardation and wankery in Batman didn't escalate around the 90s.

>>149862027
>Pym slander

>>149884842
It is, but the opposite is just a disingenuous oversimplification. Writers could easily do their job if they wanted and rework the character of Sheila. Omitting all context or that Jason died because misplaced trust and betrayal only serve to wash Bruce's hand of any responsability and that's all DC care about when it come to Jason.

>>149861814 (OP)
Jason. Him staying dead just adds weight to the bat mythos. Red Hood never really played out into anything important so it never existing doesnt rewlly bother me. Atleast Damien has stuff to do. Could make Tim the Red Hood if he has to exists to Tim isnt just some Faggot.

>>149891454
Are you sure you're not thinking of DitF? All I remember in UtRH is Alfred narrating how " the kid had obvious issues but Bruce was happy working with him."

>>149891806
They all wanted that and they still do, but not because of Hush. Jason become the rotten apple right after Starlin got fired as part of DC damage control mission, not with Hush or whatever that came after. For 20 + years DC used (dead) Jason as the bad Robin and a sinner. By reducing Jason to a cautionary tale DC already turned him as a villain in the making. Hush is just the first to tease and take that logic to its ultimate conclusion by saying what if Jason came back as a super-villain. UtRH jumps the shark and commit to the idea. Hush opens the Pandora's box and UtRH cements the concept with Red Hood, but that narrative was always popular with Batfags and other Robinfags. There's nothing like a black sheep to unit a family of self-righteous assholes.

>>149896960
>Life goes on.
>Time changes.
>And people change with them.
Nope.

>>149861964
>Well Jason was always the “edgy one” of the Robins,
Not always. Prior to crisis, he was actually super kind.

>>149861814 (OP)
Flop Hood vs nepo baby Robin, difficult, both are shit and only served to dirty Talia's character.

>>149897564
Okay but that's just a few platitudes that offer no reflection and don't mention a bad environment or what bad environment is being addressed. Whereas Jaybin run is basically: this is why Batman shouldn't take a kid into this and Robin actively ends up souring the kid until he care less and less about his life and (gasp) the criminals' lives.

>>149897723
While you're not wrong I find it ridiculous to pretend exotic assassin princess Talia in love with her daddy's enemy is something worth keeping around.

>>149867866
The cartoon one?

>>149897845
Does he really need to spell out every detail? It’s already there in the comics if you paid attention. Jason went through a lot. He watched a woman kill herself while the man responsible almost walked free, and he was betrayed by his own mother. Do you honestly think Gotham is a healthy place for a kid to grow up?

>>149898235
Here's the thing; UTH make no mention of Gloria or Sheila or anything that happened in Jaybin's run and doesn't show what you're talking about. So if you neither show or tell, it just doesn't exist. That basic story-telling. Decades went by between DitF and UTH, DC is not shy of doing retcons and most people who have read UTH never read anything else with Jason.
>Do you honestly think Gotham is a healthy place for a kid to grow up?
I don't and I think it's peculiar to address that but not go all the way with this concept because growing with Batman is not healthy. Jason see the shits he does because he is Robin and with Batman or trying to save Batman. He ends up worst than where he starts and that's an achievement for a street urchin orphan who is more used to take care of the adults figure in his life than being taken care of by them.

>>149897011
You are literally giving too much credit to a story that is literally an X-Men comic circa 1991 but with Batman.

>>149894007
Nah you stupid faggot, show it and address it because this is a fucking comic book. One mention, and then the rest of the comic is Jason being a subhuman.

>>149898235
>Does he really need to spell out every detail? It’s already there in the comics if you paid attention.
Imagine if they tried to rehabilitate Hal Jordan, but omitted most of Emerald Twilight and had Kyle Rayner briefly mention that Hal went through a lot. That’s literally what you’re doing.

>>149861814 (OP)
>>149861822
The real answer is both Tim and Jason for different reasons.

>>149898429
>So if you neither show or tell, it just doesn't exist.
That’s not true. Just because a story doesn’t explicitly show or mention something from another story doesn’t mean it never happened. Characters can be shaped by unseen events or implied circumstances, and readers can understand their development through what is shown. Plus, it doesn’t retcon those stories.

>>149895811
>Why does DC hate Jason so much?
He reminds them too much of their high school bullies.

>>149898680
I'm giving no credit to any Batman story whatasoever. I'm just saying that the idea that Jason is bad is older than Hush and very well accepted at DC by the point Hush become a thing.

>>149882477
I haven't seen a single soul happy or excited for this series.
Really hope that translates into sales.

>>149896497
Jason has to look ugly so you know he's a mean guy, he can't look good.

>>149898856
>That’s not true. Just because a story doesn’t explicitly show or mention something from another story doesn’t mean it never happened.
No, it’s actually worse than what we think. By omitting much of what happened in ADITF, Jason and Bruce lose a lot of narrative character moments just to focus on Joker. Jason literally walked into the aftermath of a violent rape then a suicide and Bruce never actually comforts him about it. That story literally ends with Jason being vilified despite the trauma he is forced to endure. But none of this is important, but you know what is important? The Joker, and how he gets to kill peoples all the time. That’s what’s really important. Not Jason being denied peace, not Bruce’s failures as a father. It’s why UTH is such a stupid, useless, toothless story: it wants to talk big, but it has no real intention of addressing it in a satisfying manner.

I don’t even hate Tim but he needs to be Red Robin and do the Batman Jr thing he’s been doing for most of his time in spandex. Shame his last series suuuuucked and it still would’ve if he was straight.

>>149883369
Damian was only unlikable when Morrison was writing him. Everyone else just wrote him like a more bearable little shit.

What are the actually good Robin and Batman stories?

>>149898938
Except there was never a portrayal of Jason as a bad kid, that shit happened AFTER Denny O’Neil happened. Hell, a mediocre writer like Judd Winick getting to end a fifteen year death streak happened because the editorial under Dan DiDio literally didn’t give a shit.

>>149898798
Yeah and Jason went from a street kid to a bookworm with no explanation.

>>149898856
>reader should fill the gap to explain a character pulling a 180° in motive or characterization because the writer can't be bothered
That's called bad writing and an ass-pull. We're not talking about not describing what a character ate this morning or how their last sunday went.
> it doesn’t retcon those stories
Right it sell a completely different narrative, especially if we go by the movie where Jason run away to dies because Bruce told him "no", no context, and because Joker is in prison instead of roaming free in Gotham.

>>149899132
>AFTER Denny O’Neil happened
So, like before Hush?

>>149899226
Before and after.

How are there people who still excuse UTH’s sloppiness?

>>149899226
After Hush. The only one story where Jason was portrayed as a bad kid was in Gotham Knights and that one story were a Bruce takes the Chinese Mary Sue to Jason’s grave.

>>149899037
>By omitting much of what happened in ADITF, Jason and Bruce lose a lot of narrative character moments just to focus on Joker.
Do I really need to remind you that Joker killed Jason? Also, your post has absolutely nothing to do with how Winick portrayed Jason as Robin.

>Do I really need to remind you that Joker killed Jason?
Don’t worry, that was the only important part about ADIFT that Judd cared about, despite the fact that not even being the plot twist of ADIFT.
>Also, your post has absolutely nothing to do with how Winick portrayed Jason as Robin.
Post it then.

>>149897723
The one big missed opportunity with Damien was for Talia to join Bruce's side at least for the sake of her son.

>>149899472
Don't know about O'neil but this happens ~30 issues after DitF. I doubt Cass is a thing yet and I'm sure I could find more if I bothered to read a lot more shitty comics.

>>149899987
>Tim hallucinating about some guy he never met in person, letting his biases paint a picture

>>149900022
That fucking nerd.

>>149899160
Jason was a street kid with a heart of gold like Oliver Twist. He dreamed of going to school and was scared the orphanage he got sent to was gonna teach him to do crime. Yeah he smoked cigarettes, but that was more him being a scamp than a bad kid. Worst thing he did was jack tires, and that was only to get food

>>149900022
Yes. Tim being DC's spokesperson while nobody and nothing ever contradict that portrayal and it unsurprsingly get worst over time

>>149899590
Post what? You know what, it doesn’t matter. Winick’s Jason was a good kid who changed due to a bad environment and that’s it. If you don’t like it, go fuck yourself.

>>149900080
Lmao, the Winickcuck knows he can’t produce the goods because Winick never thought of actually showing Jason as a good kid during UTH.

>>149900076
That’s just Tim being the overcorrection of Jason to appease the fans.
>Oh my golly, my Batman would never do anything wrong!
Tim’s a little shit, but was Denny trying to appease the readers. It wouldn’t be until Batman Beyond came along and basically gave us the reviled Jason Todd the readers bad thought up in their head. Of course, audiences loved Terry McGinnis and the idea of a young Batman with edge but a heart of gold. The moral of the story is that Dickfags have always had abhorrent taste.

>>149900080
>Winick’s Jason was a good kid who changed due to a bad environment and that’s it.
Post it. Show it if that’s the case.

>>149900203
I don't disagree but I'm not interested in moving the goal post. I'm pointing that DC didn't wait long to go on a damage control mission to portray Jason as being the reason of his own demise and that it simply escalated over time. Hush didn't pull that shit out of nowhere.

>>149900352
Except it did. You have to remember Tim’s run was five years after ADITF and NOBODY knew what actually happened in Ethiopia. Not even Bruce saying dumb shit in the aftermath of Jason’s death makes sense, he’s mourning him and people say dumb things in moments of grief. Tim’s a fourteen year old boy, of course hell say dumb shit too given he doesn’t see the bigger picture. But it wasn’t until after Denny O’Neil retired and lesser editors came on that you had shit like this coming out.

>>149900140
>>149900231
Happy now?

>>149900438
Or shit like this.

>>149900484
Babs' a cunt.

>>149900455
Thank you for proving my point. None of this actually shows Jason as being a good kid. What we’re getting is Jason at his worst when he gad completely lost hope in the system instead of the kid who wanted to turn his life around and love. No wonder DC did everything in their power to double down on Bad Robin, this was the first time many new readers were seeing Jason.

I miss the Dark Trinity, now that the Titans are all fucking boomers pushing 30 I'm surprised they haven't stopped coattail riding their Teen Titans success and there hasn't been an attempt at making a C-lister superteam instead of every character being shackled to their often-literal-daddy's cast.

This is something Marvel has way more success at doing than DC for whatever reason, in an ideal world Jason would be running around in the Batman equivalent of X-Force. Let's call it Bat-Force. Bat-Force can have Jason as the main headliner like Deadpool in X-Force but then you can actually add in shit like the rest of the Dark Trinity and more edgelords legacies like Rose and a donut steel or two. Then when there's some big editorial mandated crossover that demands everyone show up in Gotham they go as a team the same way X-Force shows up for X-Men bullshit and it's not just Jason coming home like a beaten dog with his tail between his legs.

They'll print the Harley Quinn fartacular and have an overweight tranny who admits she's never read a single red hood book, who says horror needs more rape, be allowed to write a "toxic romance""" with Huntress of all people, but they won't just let Jason have some fucking teammates to globe-trot and beat up supervillains with? There's like seven X-Men teams I'm sure the """""bat-family"""""* can handle not being one giant incestuous swinger's party where everyone is constantly having sex with everyone else's girlfriends (gee, Jason gets Dick's sloppy seconds for a THIRD time..) the bat-family is more of a sex cult than the actual sex cult x-men.

>>149900555
I wish I could write bait as good as this.

>>149873918
I don't see how he can't be in his 40s, Damien is like 14 now and him banging Talia to conceive him happened significantly into his career as Batman when he'd already had multiple Robins by that point.

>>149900438
>Not even Bruce saying dumb shit in the aftermath of Jason’s death makes sense, he’s mourning him and people say dumb things in moments of grief.
>Not even
Ignore that part, it makes complete sense for Bruce to say dumb shit.

>>149900575
The bat-family being a sex cult rather than actual family isn't bait it's literally true at this point.
Jason is now fucking Huntress because he MUST be Eskimo Brothers with Dick as many times as possible. In fact Batman editorial made him Eskimo Brothers with his own adopted father too with that one time Talia fucked him after resurrection.

Say hello to Jason Todd's newest writer btw. An ugly tranny who tweets about how books need more rape scenes

>>149900839
Anon, you’re no different than the fat tranny because only people who don’t know Jason Todd would like the Dark Trinity and trash like RHATO.

>>149900438
> Except it did
Everything I posted predate Hush, so no.
>Tim’s run was five years after ADITF
Did you just look at my pic's name and assumed Tim didn't exist before 1993? Tim starts in 1989, issue #436. Jason dies in 1988 and DitF ends at issue #429 of the same run. 5 years lmao. Sure thing, expert retard.
>he’s mourning him
There saying dumb things in moments of grief and covering a murder, refusing someone justice because your dick is deep into the pie and you and your whole family spit roasting a dead kid so you don't look too hard at your own crimes and bias. You have a whole family of supposed great detectives who never investigate shit about a dead Robin. It's so stupid it be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic and petty in intents and results.

>>149900839
>advocate books need more rape scenes
And somehow /co/ hates her? She should have been given to write about Babs or Dick. Their fanbase would have loved it.

>>149900839
Chris-chan is writing Red Hood?

>>149900992
Look at the state of it. It means more rape scenes with itself as the perpetrator

>>149900992
Don’t worry if the book flops, he will come to your favorite character.

>>149901100
Couldn't do worse to Spidey than the current team

>>149900882
> Everything I posted predate Hush, so no.
Everything I posted came after Denny and retired, and what I posted is way worse than what you did.
> Did you just look at my pic's name and assumed Tim didn't exist before 1993?
No because that particular issue happened during Tim’s 1993 solo run.
> refusing someone justice because your dick is deep into the pie and you and your whole family spit roasting a dead kid so you don't look too hard at your own crimes and bias.
Bruce could never give Jason justice because Doing so would mean taking Joker out of the books, which would have been a big fat fucking mistake the time considering the ‘89 movie just came out. There’s a reason why Babs doesn’t dedicate every appearance to hating on Joker after he crippled her: because the writers balanced it out by making her Oracle and giving her victories over Joker. Judd Winick on the other hand, was a mediocre writer who didn’t think ahead or the implication of his run. That’s the 2000s of Batman summed up.

>>149900858
>only people who don’t know Jason Todd would like the Dark Trinity
nah dark trinity was based since it actually took the character outside of Gotham for once and it actually acknowledged that Gotham isn't the center of the universe and that the other A-listers like Superman and Wonder Woman exist. Shared continuity is important when writing a capeshit book. I like Jason, I don't like him in Gotham because he'll never ever be allowed to be anything more than a punching bag for Batman if he stays there. Even Superman isn't allowed to fix Gotham, let alone a former sidekick. The city is literally corrosive to any character that touches it because it's THE symbol of permanent status quo. Nothing you do in Gotham ever matters. You can't fix it and you can't even kill the villains escaping Arkham through a revolving door. You can't even have the bad guys thrown in the Phantom Zone because that would involve acknowledging heroes besides Batman exist. You can't have Wonder Woman lasso them and have them confess they've never once considered rehabilitation and will always always always try to escape and kill more people unless you cut their heads off because that would make Batman look stupid.

Gotham sucks. It's supposed to suck. It's Batman's personal purgatory. That's why Nightwing left in order to stand on his own two feet, other characters can only actually matter if they're not in Gotham. In Gotham nothing matters and nothing ever gets better by design and anyone trying is wrong and exists to get dunked on by Batman. Jason doing shit like fighting an angry exiled Amazon out in the desert who's trying to get a magic superweapon artifact so she can blow up the middle east is cool because it's NOT in Gotham and therefore shit can actually happen and people can actually die and the status quo can change. An entire city gets vaporized with an Egyptian god's superweapon, multiple people die including the villain, the Amazons integrate with civilian government.

>>149901378
>>149900575

>>149901366
>way worse than what you did.
Nobody argued about that. Hell, I keep saying it got worst over the years. This is not a dick contest.
>Doing so would mean taking Joker out of the books
Alternatively, it would mean addressing that Batman is a shit guardian and the reason why Jason is never getting any Justice. Or simply not demonizing a kid for something all Robins and Batman do. But DC decided a long time ago they would rather sleep with dogs and wake up with fleas.

>>149901659
Which goes to show how much of a mistake UTRH is. It should have been the story that rehabilitate led Jason and set everything right. Now Jasin is still paying for the consequences of UTRH twenty years later.

>>149900054
Jsson kind of was a expy of junior from dick Tracy especially the street orphan orgin

>>149901780
UTH is the consequence of DC having no intention to assume anything or grow-up to begin with. Since DC also recently published two Jaybin books where he is mini Red Hood, I'd say they're even doubling down on it.

>>149900549
The page is literally about Jason adapting to his surroundings. The captions spell it out: the world outside is darker, that darkness gets inside him too, and to survive he has to toughen up. That’s environment-driven change, not “Jason at his worst with no hope”.

>>149901870
The concept is far from new when you have Gavroche from Les Miserables.

>>149902192
But they do not show him at his best, they only show him at his worst. This still sucks shit and shows what a fucking terrible job Winick did.

>>149861993
Jason saved the Robin identity
Not when he was introduced, but in modern Batman
People love the idea of Batman having a failed son so much that they can’t ignore Jason
Before Under the Red Hood the concept of Robin was on its way out. BTAS hated using Dick, the 90s movies ignore Robin until they let Batman adopt a 20 year old man, the only place where they liked Robin was in the Teen Titans cartoon and that does everything to distance itself from Batman
But the idea of Batman having a failed son is compelling to writers, and it has to be his SON, their relationship is stronger if Jason is his son and not his best friend like Harvey so Robin needs to be adopted
Even the Synderverse alludes to Jason

>>149900555
>edgelords legacies like Rose
tell me again how you know absolutely nothing about Rose Wilson as a character
it's okay, the editors clearly don't either

>>149903452
Your post basically sums up everything wrong with writers, because they constantly ignore shit that fans actually love, to the extent that they actively throw temper tantrums shitting on the fans for liking them. Tim saved the Robin identity to the extent of bringing it back to the top 3 of DC where Robin belonged, but no some limp-dicked writers don't like it so the fans are wrong.

>>149903634
she is a legacy of an edgelord, I didn't mean she was a total edgelord herself (even if she's got some edge moments)
put Flatline on the team too so damien's girlfriend can stick around, they're cute together and Lord Death Man is an excellent villain