Thread 149912589

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Barbara being able to walk again, and frankly it's outrageous it took as long as it did. The Killing Joke shouldn't have even been canon in the first place; it barely even works as canon since it sort of functions as the final story of Batman and the Joker. It should never have been canon and Babs should never have been paralyzed.

She doesn't have to keep being Batgirl, but she should at least be able to walk, and it's silly that she wasn't for so long.

It serves a lot of stories better if she has the pathos of the paralysis

The reason it stuck is because her role as Oracle was a unique niche and gave her a lot of stuff to deal with as a character.

>>149912589 (OP)
I'm sorry, I'm honestly not sure what to say anymore to an OP that rational and pretty much right.
+1 to the post count I guess.

>>149912589 (OP)
its a comic book(s). stop crying about it

>>149912589 (OP)
>There is absolutely nothing wrong with Barbara being able to walk again

Yes there is. Crippling her was good because it made comics in general and Gotham in particular feel more serious and grounded places, places similar to a real world. She, like dead Jason Todd, served as a permanent reminder that being a vigilante was dangerous, all vigilantes are constantly in danger, and you should never do it just because you think it's cool or fun. Erasing her injury erases that good tone-setting message.

>>149912641
It's not unique anymore. Plenty of guys in chairs.

>>149912589 (OP)
>functions as the final story of Batman and the Joker
It doesn't, it wasn't intended to, only stupid rumor-mongering on the Internet tried to make it so.

>>149912850
What a massive load of horseshit.

>>149912589 (OP)
Her have some magic spine implant that lets her back flips and jump kick is pretty retarded. They should just either retcon the killing joke or keep her in the chair

>>149913003
99% of /co/mrades have no idea what this is.
Especially not the cassfag casuals arguing to re-cripple the best girl in the batfam.

>>149912589 (OP)
You literally got what you want, I don't know why you have to keep arguing about this even though she can walk again

>>149914806
Stephanie was the only interesting Batgirl. Babs is boring as Batgirl, and Cass is a boring Mary Sue.

Why are you still mad about something that was undone 14 years ago? Forever seething Babsfags.
>t barely even works as canon since it sort of functions as the final story of Batman and the Joker.
It wasn't written or intended as a final story. Batman offers Joker help, Joker turns him down, Joker points out Batman's just as broken as he is, and they laugh about it, tune in next week same bat-time, same bat-channel.
>She doesn't have to keep being Batgirl, but she should at least be able to walk, and it's silly that she wasn't for so long.
Len Wein approved the story because he loathed Batgirl and his first thing he did as bat-editor was remove the Batgirl backups from Detective Comics. She showed up maybe once or twice as a civilian when he was editor. Denny O'Neil kept it because he also loathed Batgirl and he knew that if he ever gave an inch, the Babsfags in the company would take a mile. Once O'Neil stepped down, it was the then-popularity of Cassandra Cain (that was sabotaged over time by the Babsfags) and inertia that kept it going.

>>149912850
Barbara didn't get crippled as a result of her being Batgirl. If it was something she received in the line of duty it's one thing, but she got shot by Joker simply because she was Gordon's daughter. In retrospect now that I think about it it's kind of ridiculous that her being crippled is completely irrelevant to her career as Batgirl.

>>149915467
Nothing about OP's post says mad

>>149913918
>Her have some magic spine implant that lets her back flips and jump kick is pretty retarded
Magic? What world are you living where Batman isn't mid-scifi?
>oh yeah Batman has mutants with superpowers, spy gadgets, and even a quasi-immortal running a centuries global conspiracy.
>but a cybernetic implant? In a world where that is a thing that legitimately exists? THAT'S CRAZY!!!!

>>149915541
>frankly it's outrageous it took as long as it did.
>The Killing Joke shouldn't have even been canon in the first place
>It should never have been canon and Babs should never have been paralyzed.
>it's silly that she wasn't for so long.
Big mad.

>>149912589 (OP)
Barbara was better suited for and is more memorable as Oracle than she was as Batgirl.

>>149912641
What's unique about Oracle was the fact soneone decided a disposable woman wasn't so disposable

>>149912850
Yea but it also exposes Batman’s fundamentally flawed moral code and the GPD as the most incompetent district in history- so both had to be retconned in some way to continue the status quo and get those bat bucks pumping with no questions asked

>>149912619
the pathos isn't there if she's the only one who suffers any permanent danger.

>>149912589 (OP)
>There is absolutely nothing wrong with Barbara being able to walk again, and frankly it's outrageous it took as long as it did.
Correct.
We have had way more than enough of the grimdark.

>>149912589 (OP)
Just have her fight crime in a rocket powered wheelchair, weirder things than that are present in Batman

>>149915913
That would have been wildly out of tone in late 80s-early 00s Batman.

>>149915944
I think you're wildly overestimating how grounded that era of Batman was.

>>149915913
They could've made her Bat Iron Man if they wanted to I guess

>>149915736
I mean that's objectively false on both accounts as her apperances outside of comics is usually as Batgirl.

>>149912589 (OP)
Yeah. Especially that in DC there is tech that could've fixed her hard after being paralyzed.

>>149912850
Knightfall was in the planning stages as early as 1990, two years after TKJ and Death in the Family. Oracle didn't even come from the Gotham office, Ostrander and Yale created the concept for Suicide Squad independently.

>>149915664
>>149916072
The funny thing is cybernetic implants to restore function after nerve injuries are real technology now.

>>149915716
seems pretty calm. Just honest. It's dumb. She's a heavily merchandised character and it's an IP farm

>>149915969
I'm not. O'Neil promoted Batman as an urban legend with some light supernatural elements, but no overt science fiction. You didn't have cyborgs and robots rampaging through the streets.

>>149916245
Anon doesn't have a stake in DC Comics, it's just character-fagging.

>>149916276
It's comics anon. It's ALL character fagging. You're attracted initially because the character looks appealing. Anything else is deluding yourself.

>>149916318
I'm into entertaining stories, not a particular character which is something I grew out of after I stopped being a kid.

>>149916256
You did though.

>>149916375
Post 'em then.

>>149912589 (OP)
She should've become a naga

>>149916420
I will accept no other explanations.

>>149916256
There were two active Clayfaces post-Crisis. One with classic shapeshifting and one with disintegration touch.

>>149913003
You're not making any kind of a point.

>>149916209
Neither are you. Why the fuck are you talking about Knightfall as if it matters? We're talking about Barbara Gordon.
>b-b-but Batman was in the wheelchair and-
He got better. That doesn't mean Barbara should. Barbara should forever be crippled and Jason Todd should have stayed dead. They are both more valuable that way.

>>149917047
KGBeast was treated as a joke after his first appearance, rarely appearing after that. An immediate regret.
>>149917194
Yeah, that's just a light supernatural element.

>>149917377
Not the anon from >>149913003 but I want to make a difference point about>>149912850
>She, like dead Jason Todd, served as a permanent reminder that being a vigilante was dangerous, all vigilantes are constantly in danger, and you should never do it just because you think it's cool or fun
But then immediately after those two incidents we get Robin back with Tim Drake, who I notice doesn't have to be paralyzed to be recognized for his intelligence.

>>149917521
Ok but what about literally every other Batman supervillain? Joker has poison immunity, Mr.Freeze walks around in power armor, Mad Hatter has hypnotizing hats and Man-Bat exists.

>>149917609
Yeah those are very light fantasy elements, nothing as extreme as someone going around in a rocket powered chair. Batman was an urban legend, most people didn't even think he existed, that the bat signal was just some silly PR thing Gordon did to try to scare criminals and give people hope. Can't have that when you have someone in a loud rocketchair zooming around.

>>149917639
I don't know, I feel like a scientist who can turn into a bat monster pretty farfetched.

>>149917737
Stuff like that was always a part of Batman, he fought vampires and Hugo Strange's monster men. But it was considered an aberration when the silver age went overtly-scfi-fi.

>>149917639
Living mud that can turn into other people, guy with disintegration touch, dude with mind control hats, immortal middle eastern world conqueror are not "very light fantasy elements."

>>149917377
The point was that Babs getting shot was never supposed to be some pillar of a grounded and gritty Batman universe as the Batman writers and editors were not the ones to come up with the idea of Oracle and the same time she debuted they were already planning a story centered around Bruce having his spinal cord severed and getting better. Made even worse by said story being resolved by Bruce's literal magical negro girlfriend (introduced in the story) fixing his spinal cord by thinking so hard she turned herself retarded.

>>149918276
>Living mud that can turn into other people, guy with disintegration touch, dude with mind control hats, immortal middle eastern world conqueror are not "very light fantasy elements."
Yes they are. If you can picture it in 1930s/40s urban fantasy fiction it's fine. The key thing about urban fantasy is that the fantastic elements are there in something resembling the real world but aren't omnipresent. Most people living in these worlds have no clue about them.

>>149918342
>Most people living in these worlds have no clue about them.
They do though.

>>149918362
Most people don't know about the existence of vampires in Vampire: The Masquerade or Twilight. You're thinking of something else. Superheroes are public in the DC Universe, but O'Neil didn't like acknowledging them and had Gotham exist in its own bubble for the most part. During Knightfall, Batman didn't bring up calling his old Justice League buddies Martian Manhunter, Booster Gold, and Blue Beetle to help him out, it would have compromised the story they wanted to tell.

>>149912850
>She, like dead Jason Todd, served as a permanent reminder that being a vigilante was dangerous
Remember when Bruce got his back broken and then magically healed

>>149912589 (OP)
>admits he shouldn't have made her crippled
>b-b-bro nooooo you don't understand! SHE NEEDS TO BE CRIPPLED

no, fuck off. When even the retard who wrote it knows he shouldn't have wrote it you know it's a ad idea

>>149918583
or that time when Damian got resurrected

>>149918495
>but O'Neil didn't like acknowledging them and had Gotham exist in its own bubble for the most part
But this doesn't even really work in isolation because Superheroes are a still a known quantity.

>>149918495
>>149918843
Like even if we only focus on Gotham, Gotham still clearly has superheroes.

>>149918705
Alan Moore is a grump who regrets everything. He no longer had a say after he submitted the script and ended up producing one of the most popular Batman stories ever made.
>>149918856
I can't recall any during this period of time. You had Batman, Robin, Huntress, Spoiler, Azrael, Anarky. Non-powered individuals, easily swept under the rug.

>>149919151
You had several superpowered villains though, who were being locked up in a public facility.

>>149918706
Don't forget Kate getting her neck snapped and immediately thrown in Lazarus Pit.

>>149919177
The world was not as connected back then, there were a handful of people who had direct knowledge of these types.

You could kill Bab off and it'd make no difference.

>>149912850
>you should never do it just because you think it's cool or fun.
Right, these characters only put on their best spandex because it's totally the way to fight crime. Not because they'd rather do this than anything else that be more effective but more boring.

>>149918559
Yes. It was posted way back >>149913003
And >>149917377 said he wasn't making any kind of point.
Because /co/ doesn't read comics.
And Batman getting his spine fixed by his magical black girlfriend who got brainbroke into a toddler doesn't count for some reason.

>>149920764
>magical black girlfriend who got brainbroke into a toddler
She's been fine for 20 years now.

>>149921128
Mentioned offhandedly in Hush, then ignored for 20 years, more like.

>>149918583
what robin is that one and when did the spine thing happen

>>149921242
Damian and during the Dickbats era. It was just Morrison taking the piss.

Gail Simone is not the talent I thought she was. She was hard carried by talented artists for decades.

>>149915302
Stephanie was just making mistakes after mistake. She was interesting in that she was completely over her head and no amount of training her save her. Having her die because of well meaning but misaimed intentions highlights that not everyone is cut out for the Batfamily. It's a serious dangerous occupation and you can't just write a bunch of over eager teenagers and expect Bruce or the setting to be happy about it. I like the idea of Gotham self correcting every now and again like this by having rogues turn lethally blood thirsty and actually put characters out of commission forever.

Brown returning was wish fulfillment BS

>>149912589 (OP)
I like the compromise that she can be Batgirl but requires "down time" to rest and walks with a cane. Also gives her the time to coordinate as Oracle, which in a lot of cases is preferred and more helpful depending on task. The appeal or Oracle was to show that people can make a positive difference even with a disability

>>149912589 (OP)
The high tech Barbara Batgirl seen in the last issue of H2SH is how the character should be treated going forward, Loeb and Lee accidentally stumbled on something brilliant. The use of the sci fi gadgets really set her apart from the rest of the family, an actual reconciliation of Batgirl and Oracle ideas, instead of them being at odds with each other like the last 40 years.

>>149921406
No one wanted Stephanie dead, not her creator, not even the people writing the event. It was a shitty editor forcing a decision on them and the editor that followed him corrected that mistake among others he made running the bat-titles into the ground in the mid-00s.

>>149912589 (OP)
>There is absolutely nothing wrong with Barbara being able to walk again, and frankly it's outrageous it took as long as it did.
Dan Didio made this post.

>>149921666
Because of how true and right it is?

>>149921680
If Didio was so right then how come the New 52 Batgirl comics were awful and she ended up getting cancelled and now we have a Cass Batgirl ongoing getting published?

>>149921742
Cass fans got their comic but at what cost? People are less interested in Batgirl now more than ever.

>>149921817
In my unnecessary defense I'm avoiding it because anytime Cass and Shiva show up one or both acts OoC.

>>149921406
>I never read any of Steph's appearances before War Games: the starter park
Setting that aside, if you actually read War Games you'll find Steph running circles around everyone in Gotham while Bruce spends the entire event bumbling around like a goddamn moron.

>>149921869
make it make sense cass fans!

>>149921742
Because he handed the title to Simone, who vehemently opposed the idea in the first place and at that point was very obviously burnt out as a writer (and this is from someone who likes Simone) resulting in a title that is just a miserable fucking slog starring a hero suffering from intense, destructive self-loathing at being able to walk and having bowel control again.

>>149921923
Much like Red Hood fans, DC refuses to listen to what Cass fans actually want then acts surprised when those fans don't give a shit about whatever new and retarded take they take. And on the rare occasions when DC does listen, they at best give the fans ~60% of what they're asking for and act like they should be offering blowjobs and coke for halfassing it.

>>149922163
Not to victimeblame but maybe they ask too much?

>>149922238
"Please write her in character" is hardly asking too much.

>>149921999
And then they gave it to Cameron Stewart who wrote a flash-in-a-pan re-imagining that the target audience haven't been able to like after he got cancelled for being a creep, then Hope Larson who wrote a boring run then Mairghread Scott who wrote an actually-okay run but nothing exceptional and then Cecil Castellucci who gave us cancellation and the end of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.
The animated series made Barbara interesting by making her Robin's rival and Batman's sidekick, but on her own, she's always been mediocre at best.

Something I notice about all three batgirl is that they're at the best when they're being horny sluts.
See all three Batgirls are actually three young sexy women trying to live in the city who striking out independently from their respective father's influence using Batgirl(or Batgirl adjacent identities like Spoiler) catching the attention of all the eligible bachelors with their skintight suits.

>>149922362
>in character
You have to start asking yourself if you even know what that means anymore my guy.

>>149922402
See I think this guy doesn't even like Batgirl as an idea and just wants Girl!Robin.

>>149922402
I mean it's easy to talk smack now but we were probably all paying much closer attention to Babsgirl then this Cass/Shiva teamup.

>>149922616
Oh sure, linking Cass to Shiva was one of the worst things Michael Wright and Andersen Gabrych did and I hate that they preserved it in the reboot instead of letting it quietly disappear.

>>149922402
No one gives a shit about Stewart getting cancelled a decade ago.

>>149922489
Eh on Cass and Steph, on lock for Babs. God bless Tarr for drawing every woman as a leggy thot.

>>149922734
Fucking amazing, Babs got shot in the spine and we all expected to clap and cheer but having Cass connected to Lady Shiva is too much to bear.

>>149922830
It was half a decade ago and he's been blacklisted ever since. Now he just sells art by his lonesome. Completely unwelcome at DC, he had books cancelled and everything.

>>149922734
My problem isn't linking Shiva to Cass, it's not making Shiva's interest a dispassionate curiosity of how Cain's program turned out. It provides a dichotomy between her and David and sets a clear moral opposition between Cass and Shiva.

>>149922830
You may hemm and haw but remember the bikini issue with Cass back in the 2000s Batgirl series? It's crazy to suggest we weren't sexualizing Cass back then.

>>149923010
Same with Steph, these girls are hot and Batgirl is all about that hotness ON A SUBTEXTUAL LEVEL to be clear as in if you want a good Batgirl story you should be thinking about a sexy bitch who is looking for some good dick.

>>149912850
>Crippling her was good
Because you want Cass to be forever Batgirl, which is retarded

>>149923010
No, I'm saying that I disagree with the sentiment that Cass and Steph are at their best when they're horny sluts but Babs needs to be a horny slut to be her best.

>>149923068
>it's another "the Batgirls discover they have to infiltrate yet another sexy party and Babs somehow manages yet again to already have properly fitting risque clubwear with matching shoes for all of them on hand" issue

>>149923990
I'm not saying they're literally horny sluts but that being batgirl is akin to being a horny slut because it's about an independent young woman living in the city unfettered by societal expectations.
Babs, the head bitch librarian in charge, objectively knows she's a baddie and wants to show off being baddie girl.
Cass has left her controlling father and is now using her bodily autonomy the way she wants, like a self-empowered slut ought to do.
Steph's tenure as Batgirl is all about how she's still tight as fuck even after being raped to death, unblemished and unmarred because she knows how to werk it.

>>149923204
This

Orphan and Spoiler are still a part of the Batfamily and nothing is lost or gained but them and Tim Drake should have their own identity. Damian is fine holding on to Robin for now because he's young but long term he'll grow out of it. The only people owned the names Robin and Batgirl are Dick and Babs. Dick grew out of it because it's childish but Batgirl isn't really.

Yes, I know Bette was the OG

>>149924377
And this explains why Bette Kane doesn't get enough respect as Bat-Girl, because she's a horny virgin.

>>149921666
Dan Didio was never so based.
>>149921869
Out of character how, exactly? You fucks loved that Batgirls mini. This is classic casstismo.

>>149924377
Cass should be far more discerning about her sexuality as her skills allow her to quickly filter out guys.

>>149924432
Damian can't grow out of the Robin identity.

>>149924530
Because there's really no need for him to do so.

>>149912619
FPBP and /thread