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Thread 150073122

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Anonymous No.150073122 >>150074391 >>150074497 >>150074502 >>150074585 >>150074669 >>150075660 >>150075965 >>150075973 >>150077971 >>150078532 >>150078547 >>150080174 >>150081448 >>150081946
Would 2000 Bendis writing Superman have a better reception?
Anonymous No.150074391
>>150073122 (OP)
yes
Anonymous No.150074497 >>150074536
>>150073122 (OP)
He wasn't a hack yet, maybe.
Personally, I prefer him being far away from superman, specially after what happened with Spiderman with miles morales, and how he ruined John kent.
Anonymous No.150074502 >>150074661
>>150073122 (OP)
It would have had more hype from the casual audience and Wizard would have sucked it off but it would have been shit still. It would be Justice League disassembled. God I can't believe one person managed to fuck comics as a medium so much.
Anonymous No.150074536 >>150074575 >>150078025
>>150074497
He was always a hack.
Anonymous No.150074575 >>150074603 >>150075933 >>150078025 >>150082250
>>150074536
I really don't get how anyone thought he was ever good. Was it really just the novelty of comics being written to be more "cinematic?" Because that got old fast and I didn't need to spend 5 issues on an origin Stan and Steve did inside 15 pages. It really feels like he was writing for people who don't like comics yet want to say they do and for people who thought they were better than their medium and wanted the acclaim TV and movies got.
Anonymous No.150074585
>>150073122 (OP)
If a young Bendis was writing Superman, he would use it as an opportunity to implement the Miles Morales experience but with Superman instead of Spider-man.
Anonymous No.150074603
>>150074575
Bendis was basically a nepo hire if I remember correctly. His friend that was currently working at Marvel supposedly helped him get the job.
Anonymous No.150074661
>>150074502
He's the whole reason whe have and endless amount of spider-man legacy character and multiversal variants. Not to mention diverse woke characters, he can fuck himself on my book.
Anonymous No.150074669
>>150073122 (OP)
Not necessarily.

He simply isn't cut out for the character. If he had tried to write Superman back then it could have potentially revealed his limitations and maybe destroyed his reputation even earlier before he could even really build up much of a reputation to begin with.
Anonymous No.150075660
>>150073122 (OP)
No

Every single trick Bendis tried in his Superman is every single trick he did in the 2000s

The only difference is there'd have been no son to age up
Anonymous No.150075933
>>150074575
>Was it really just the novelty of comics being written to be more "cinematic?"

Yes. That and also basically people were whining about comics not having natural dialogue and praising Bendis and others for writing natural dialogue, even though in retrospect people quickly tired of the "natural" dialogue of the 00s compared to stuff that came before
Anonymous No.150075965 >>150080174
>>150073122 (OP)
Writing what? The mainline books or an "Ultimate DC?"

If he were writing mainline Superman, he would've been under stricter editorial guidance compared to 00s Marvel.

Doing an "Ultimate Superman," maybe he might've had a better reception since there were no expectations to his mainstream superhero work yet.

He wouldn't have had the full PR spin that being at Marvel provided him.
Anonymous No.150075973 >>150076432
>>150073122 (OP)
Anonymous No.150076432 >>150076508
>>150075973
:DDDDD
Anonymous No.150076508
>>150076432
Anonymous No.150077971 >>150079830
>>150073122 (OP)
Yes, but I'd rather have early 2000s Bendis write Batman. He was quite good at writing street-level heroes like Daredevil and (Ultimate) Spider-Man, so maybe Batman would have suited him best.
Anonymous No.150078025
>>150074575
>>150074536
His hackneyed style of writing felt a lot more natural in the still-new Marvel Knights corner.

Knights was about a street level gritty more mature corner of Marvel and Bendis' strong suit was always aping that 90s Mamet neo-noir
Anonymous No.150078532
>>150073122 (OP)
No.

He has ALWAYS ignored prior characterizations for whatever he wants even before that other hack Jason Aaron and permanently damaged Wanda's character at the time with double-whammy of Disassembled and House of M cementing her as "that bitch who always goes crazy every few years over her stupid imaginary kids and sometimes commits Mutant depowering/genocide" thanks to his bullshit and laziness in carrying out Quesada's mercurial manchild mandates regarding the Avengers and Mutants.
Anonymous No.150078547 >>150081184
>>150073122 (OP)
Wasn't he only good in that he was ripping off 60's spider-man for a modern audience?
His original output was still what it was.
Anonymous No.150079830
>>150077971
Fuck, that would be so bad too.
Anonymous No.150080174
>>150073122 (OP)
>>150075965
Wait, did OP mean, 2000s Bendis writing Superman in the 2000s, or in 2018? Because if he started writing Superman in 2000 instead of USM there'd definitely still be strict editorial control (Didio didn't arrive till 2002). And if he were around in the 00s it could also be possible that Didio and whoever was editing the Superman line at the time might suggest bad ideas that end up derailing Bendis' popularity (see what happened with Sean McKeever on Teen Titans)

Bendis was already getting acclaim for his indie comics but he needed something like USM to become a popular writer. If he doesn't have that then he might've just had a mid-run at DC unless he somehow latches onto something that makes him popular
Anonymous No.150080303
I wonder how much money DC lost on Bendis
Anonymous No.150081184
>>150078547
Yeah.
Anonymous No.150081448 >>150081566
>>150073122 (OP)
2000 Bendis wasn't anybody, he didn't really become a name until USM and even then, he was just cribbing old ASM stories to retell most of the time
Anonymous No.150081566 >>150081636
>>150081448
Bendis's run were original takes on old ideas, they weren't lifts of old stories.
Anonymous No.150081636 >>150081701
>>150081566
distinction without difference
Anonymous No.150081701 >>150084720
>>150081636
It's like saying every Spider-Man adaptation whatsoever is just "cribbing old ASM stories." No, they're not.
Anonymous No.150081946 >>150082374
>>150073122 (OP)
Nobody knew who he was before becoming Bendis, so no.
He wasn't exactly king of the Indies before Marvel, Marvel just gaslit us into thinking he was some indie megastar when in fact he was already in the Marvel system working on Ultraverse books for Malibu since the mid 90's
Anonymous No.150082250 >>150084646
>>150074575
People wanted more time to digest Bagley's art and get more hero-shot pages when Bagley is also good at just having a bunch of shit happen in few pages. If Bagley was given an issue to go over the origin I wouldn't mind seeing that too. Bendis setting up Osborn and having him be more proactive in tracking down Peter and knowing his identity is ok. Realistically it could have been done in 2 or 3 issues rather than 5. The relationship drama party in issue 4 I think could have been cut down and 5 has the scene of a flashback to an issue or 2 prior showing that yes it was that criminal instead of having Peter just say it in a speech bubble. Works for the movie, not the comic.
Anonymous No.150082374
>>150081946
>He wasn't exactly king of the Indies before Marvel, Marvel just gaslit us into thinking he was some indie megastar when in fact he was already in the Marvel system working on Ultraverse books for Malibu since the mid 90's

He wasn't king of the indies but he had gotten awards for Torso or something and in terms of indie side of comics that's what they care about

But then he started to get attention for writing Sam and Twitch, and Powers. Like Wizard was actually talking about them at a time when Wizard's word was still relevant despite the eventual declining power. Similarly so many internet reviewers were talking about Powers and stuff back at a time when more people naively took a lot of internet reviewers seriously

>he was already in the Marvel system working on Ultraverse books for Malibu since the mid 90's

He only did one issue at Marvel-owned Malibu in 1996 and didn't do any Marvel work again till either USM or the Gamepro Spider-Man comic, that's straw-grasping to say he was in the Marvel system

USM was still the title that got everyone's attention though
Anonymous No.150082611 >>150083162 >>150084920
I'm trying to get into comics and I keep seeing Bendis' name come up with recommended series, but I remember him being a huge meme here like a decade ago so it's a little surprising
Anonymous No.150083162 >>150084895
>>150082611
His Daredevil still holds up for the most part and Powers is a good read that doesn't stay good but at least never gets boring

I don't think Ulitmate Spider-Man holds up at all but ymmv

Avengers Disassembled and subsequent is where you really see all his bad habits form
Anonymous No.150084646
>>150082250
They were written and read fine in trades. If you were buying the floppies, you were a sucker subsidizing the trades.
Anonymous No.150084720 >>150084867 >>150085115
>>150081701
he was literally just retelling ASM without the filler, yes
Anonymous No.150084867
>>150084720
>without the filler
Your brain is poisoned
Anonymous No.150084895
>>150083162
Daredevil is bad and is plagued with horrible, traced art.
Anonymous No.150084920 >>150085017 >>150085065 >>150085101 >>150086639
>>150082611
During the 1990s there was a big comics bubble and crash. Comics as a great American past time were wiped out as more than 50% of shops closed. In the 00s a new wave of writers were pushed, bringing a bunch of ideas, pushing edgy or flinging shit at the walls to see what sticked. Many of these writers had hits, many of them were quite blockbuster sort of books. It feels like their careers started off well but over the years as their gimmicks became entrenched it created issues and they were blamed for problems.

When people recommend Bendis they will recommend books earlier in his career, Ultimate Spider-Man, Daredevil, Powers, Alias. As Bendis went on people began to dislike three major things:
>1. Decompression.
Whilst comics were moving towards decompression, Bendis comics really solidified this. Decompression is the act of "writing for the trades". Rather than writing books with the single issue experience in mind, writing for the trades is constant arcs. To be clear: plenty of comics existed before Bendis that were decompressed, but people feel like he represents it in the early 00s. Some at Marvel believe "writing for the trades" helped their post 90s bounce back.
>2. Bendis speak.
>“Bendis speak?” “Yes, Bendis speak.” “Do you know what I’m talking about?” “You mean Bendis speak, like in those comics, from that writer?” “Yeah, you know, like the writer. Brian Bendis.” “Brian Michael Bendis.” “What?” “The writer. I think he’s credited with three names. Pretentious middle name kinda guy.” “Oh.” “Yeah.”
>3. The Modern Marvel Event.
Bendis helmed some of the big modern Marvel events and really solidified their modern formula. Those events were polarising. One Marvel editor said: anger sells. Because people would complain non stop about Bendis books but they sold. Over time this changed.

I think people really began to turn on Bendis with his awful X-Men run or his awful Guardians of the Galaxy.
Anonymous No.150085017 >>150085078 >>150085097 >>150086591
>>150084920
>I think people really began to turn on Bendis with his awful X-Men run
His X-Men run can be summarised by pic related.
Anonymous No.150085065 >>150085084
>>150084920
>or his awful Guardians of the Galaxy.
His Guardians run came after DnA completely built up the modern Cosmic Marvel line as a big story and cult book. Bendis was apparently on a creative committee for the MCU and stole MCU ideas for his Guardians book which got him kicked off the comittee. His Guardians book also stuffed his waifu Kitty Pryde in there.
Anonymous No.150085078
>>150085017
>Springs this on him on the end, so he doesn't even spend much time actually exploring it and yet get gets credit for having Iceman be openly stated in the comics.
Anonymous No.150085084 >>150085124
>>150085065
To be fair I can't remember if that pic was actually from a Bendis book or subsequent book.
Anonymous No.150085097
>>150085017
>obligatory
Anonymous No.150085101 >>150085201
>>150084920
>I think people really began to turn on Bendis with his awful X-Men run or his awful Guardians of the Galaxy.

I think people were starting to turn on him over Avengers Disassembled, but at the time the 00s fans and Bendis fans were numerous enough to replace long-time fans. But I think the decline started around his post-Siege Avengers.

New Avengers was carried by people wanting to see Wolverine and Spider-Man on the Avengers, people who liked the artists on it, and people who were interested in seeing where Bendis was going with the story. It was also carried by the constant events--Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Siege.

But after Siege I think there was some kind of change in audience reception. Maybe people finally saw an excuse to bail, maybe people started catching on to how Bendis' stories go. He did AvX with 4 other writers and it sold really well but I think people gradually realized how bad it was. He launched a new Avengers comic with Mark Bagley, Avengers Assemble, which had the team made up of the characters who showed up in the 2012 Avengers movie, with the villain being Thanos and an appearance of the GOTG. It didn't sell well and I don't remember if it ever even charted on Bookscan during the MCU's popularity. Remember, this is the team from the original USM. The Age of Ultron comic was Bendis with Bryan Hitch and most people seemed indifferent about it or disliked it. Then X-Men and GOTG just got more people turning against him.

But I think it was Civil War II and his Superman and Legion that really hurt his rep
Anonymous No.150085115
>>150084720
I've read both runs. No he wasn't. His Green Goblin story was nothing like GG's introduction. His Kingpin/Electro story was nothing like their debut issues. His Doc Ock/Sandman/Kraven story was nothing like theirs, etc.
Yeah, he had Norman impaled in his second arc, a homage to a classic scene with a completely different context.
Anonymous No.150085124 >>150085229
>>150085084
That pic was from a subsequent book
Anonymous No.150085201 >>150085369
>>150085101
>I think people were starting to turn on him over Avengers Disassembled, but at the time the 00s fans and Bendis fans were numerous enough to replace long-time fans.
Obviously this is all subjective and open to debate but I am defining things a bit differently than you. I think there is a subtle difference in eras. For me that Disassembled/House of M stuff is the phase of "anger sells". We're gonna make big blockbuster events and books and piss people off. They were polarising but they were there and in your face. X-Men and Guardians represent a more "huh" phase where I feel that people weren't raging angry (oh plenty of people were), just becoming turned off completely. Anecdotally I know a few people who would say this is how they felt. It went from, tune into the train wreck viewing to, oh Bendis did x now.

>But after Siege I think there was some kind of change in audience reception. Maybe people finally saw an excuse to bail, maybe people started catching on to how Bendis' stories go.
This is what I meant when I said "over time this changed". Because I think by Siege a lot of this was used up and burnt out.
Anonymous No.150085229
>>150085124
Ah yeah my bad, it was the Star Lord and Kitty one. In my defense, Bendis had obviously paired them and the tone of the book had also been massively changed by Bendis post DnA.
Anonymous No.150085369 >>150085585
>>150085201
>X-Men and Guardians represent a more "huh" phase where I feel that people weren't raging angry (oh plenty of people were), just becoming turned off completely. Anecdotally I know a few people who would say this is how they felt. It went from, tune into the train wreck viewing to, oh Bendis did x now.

Ok yeah I get what you mean now. And yeah it did feel odd because launches of Bendis comics were reporting huge highs (likely because of variants, incentive variants and so on) but the sales dropped more drastically than it did on his New Avengers.

>Because I think by Siege a lot of this was used up and burnt out.

I think that does coincide with Brevoort's insistence that they needed to do events because they did what the fans wanted by doing Heroic Age and it didn't sell well... despite the fact that the readership was seeing through how fake their attempt at trying to win back readers was.

Like Bendis was still on Avengers, OMD was still in place, nobody believed Marvel was returning to form. Of course nobody bought Heroic Age. Now Marvel's stuck forcing events that now people are becoming indifferent to.
Anonymous No.150085404
We are still feeling the effects of Avengers Disassembled to this day.
Anonymous No.150085585 >>150085842
>>150085369
>Now Marvel's stuck forcing events that now people are becoming indifferent to.
In some ways it is just their formula got tired and Bendis is a lightning rod for these issues. I think all this stuff just represents demarcation points when people tapped out. Everyone remembers that moment where they just went no thanks.

And it just got worse, 2010s Marvel was a mess and it feels like this stuff just laid the ground work for it. In 2017 you had Secret Empire another super divisive Marvel event, albeit by Nick Spencer, and the sales drop made comic shop owners shout at Marvel representatives at a conference. Some of those owners blamed diversity, since we had many heroes replaced by diverse counterparts. David Gabriel, VP of Publishing, said diversity had harmed sales. On the same day, Alonso, Editor in Chief, was saying that that diversity was selling. The day after David Gabriel backtracked his comments. And Bendis is treated like a lightning rod to the diversity issue as well because he was the forerunner to a lot of it with Miles. I partly believe he knew the way the wind was blowing on adaptations and this is why a lot of that stuff happened.

I would add in general about Bendis I have met him in person and he seemed like quite an affable chap and people I have spoken to says he is a decent or nice person. So I do seperate my criticism of his work from him irl.
Anonymous No.150085842 >>150086198
>>150085585
>I partly believe he knew the way the wind was blowing on adaptations and this is why a lot of that stuff happened.

I believe it. He was on the Creative Committee, he would've known about the concern over actor salaries and Feige's insistence on not recasting. Doing young diverse replacement characters would mean not having to pay these high salaries and the replacement performers may be available for longer than the older ones.

It's also why I think Ironheart might have come about because Feige wanted a potential replacement character for Iron Man that wasn't Rhodey, because Cheadle's salary might go up with more subsequent appearances as well and it would be a way for Disney/Marvel to show they care about diversity.

The Marvel rollout overall ended up being poorly managed, which ended up alienating a wide variety of audiences.
Anonymous No.150086198
>>150085842
I mean if you expanded this you could say it sort of all reflects the MCU trajectory. Originally Feige talked about recasting MCU actors ala James Bond but then RDJ became so fucking big they just couldn't do it without him. They did course correct and recast some people like Edward Norton (wanted too much money and some rewrites/creative control) and Terrence Howard (they offered him less for 2 when in 1 he was paid more than RDJ). But in general they got stuck without doing that.

They wanted a new load of heroes but also the 2010s had a lot of big heroes get replaced: FemThor (which did end up in the MCU), Amadeus Cho as Hulk, Riri Williams (in the MCU), Sam as Cap (in the MCU), Laura as Wolverine (Laura is technically in the MCU now, dunno how long they will use Hugh Jackman). Then all the Young Avengers characters, many of whom are in the MCU now.

And considering how the Fox situation with them playing hard ball lead to the Inhumans push in comics for that brief time, which X-Men fans will never let go of, it isn't unheard of for MCU concerns to reflect comics editorial from on top.
Anonymous No.150086470
I don’t think he would have made the same splash at DC, which was known as the home of Brit writers and other comics with snob appeal, even if it still had a lot of old school writers.

Marvel had a very conservative (small c) writing culture. By 2000 the vast majority of comics were still done Marvel style and there was still a general downplaying of star writers—they didn’t even put the creator names on the cover until something like 1997.

In 2000 you see them start to dip their toe into the “modern” writing style like hiring Warren Ellis to revamp some of the lesser selling X-titles, but Ultimate Spider-Man was the breakthrough, teaming a familiar Marvel artist and a familiar story with a writing style that didn’t really exist in Marvel comics up to that point.

Bendis has a few other things going for him: he can work well with a lot of different types of artists and seems to care about giving them opportunities to do what they do best. And more recently it’s been to his advantage that he knows how not to be an asshole on social media and other once-basic tasks.

But mostly he was at Marvel at the exact right time, when they were going to “modernize” one way or the other and he (and Millar to an extent) became the face of the new Marvel that didn’t have to spend every first issue recapping four decades of comics.
Anonymous No.150086591
>>150085017
I lived this panel, the moment it was released.
I can still remember the rage I've felt. I can't belive it stuck even if it never really made any sense with Bobby.
I hated Jean gray but boy this moment and the whole run of her past self in modern timeline, and how she became what I always hated on modern psychics, I what made realize that shes was in fact, better of dead. Fuck Jean gray, and fuck bendis.
Anonymous No.150086639 >>150087243
>>150084920
Even when I was a kid, I knew this form of writing was entirely bullshit, it felt so off the first time I read it.
Not to mention the visual pollution all this speech bubbles make on the entire page.
Anonymous No.150087243
>>150086639
I think the patter is meant to evoke TV of the time. That sarcastic sort of Whedonesque Buffy type conversation. That sort of pitter patter. Unfortunately on the comics page written like that it feels static, bad, uninteresting.