Thread 150143001

What was Bobby love life before being outed as gay? I heard Scott Lobdell hinted that Iceman was gay in the 90s, but still poeple complain about the whole Bobby being gay to this day

>>150143001 (OP)
An Asian woman named Opal was his longtime civilian girlfriend. But really she only stayed with him out of security from the super powered Yakuza.

Polaris could tell he was too effeminate and dumped him for Havok

Mystique could tell he wanted futa and fucked him. Russian Darkstar didn’t have good gaydar and thought he was straight. Cloud was sexually fluid and so took a liking to him.
Kitty was dealing with her own internal bisexuality and hooked up with him as a beard.

>>150143001 (OP)
>but still poeple complain about the whole Bobby being gay to this day
ignoring braindead grifters, the problem is less about Bobby being gay and more about how it was revealed in such a retarded shameless attempt that wasn't earnest at all and couldn't be more obvious about being a cheap token representation reveal. Marvel really thought having a telepath reveal bobby was gay before even Bobby himself realized it, and trying to push that as a gay-inclusive wholesome big chungus moment really blew up in their face

>>150143001 (OP)
Bobby was straight as hell and got pushed with a lot of chicks, including Emma Frost. Nobody had ever hinted at him being gay, that's headcanon from the current crop of X-Fags who are literal homos obsessed with every character being gay and acting like sassy divas like they're on RuPaul's Drag Race more than they care about actual good stories, consistent characterization, etc.

*Marvel really thought having a telepath reveal bobby was gay before even Bobby himself realized it was in any way a good idea

>>150143235
You talk as if he was gay all along rather than this being a massive retcon.

To not mention that his ente personality from then on shifted to: "THE FAG"

He started talkign like a camp homo, liking things that camp homos like, and even draw like a flamboyant homo.

Its funny how Scott being the main character of the X-Men means Jean and Cable will forever be straight due to being inseperable from him.

>>150143308
What about Rachel?

>>150143453
Literal irrelevent OC nobody knows and has no real connection to Scott while Cable appeared in the cartoons and movies.

>>150143001 (OP)
>I heard Scott Lobdell hinted that Iceman was gay in the 90s
No doubt from the same people who try to argue the pic you posted proves he was always meant to be gay - in the sixties, no less - and not that he's just barely hit puberty and still believed that girls carry cooties.

>>150143499
Kagerou, I'm very serious and some lesser Android twenty one won't stop me. Your useless bodyshield children die by my hands slowly. I'll show them their own physical souls before I add up from the slum you turned my astral consciousness into capiche? A person's most weak point is always just right behind them.
Lucy this belonged to you.

>>150143001 (OP)
Bobby was always the most effeminate. He even got locked out of Scott’s bachelor party to Jean, because the bouncer at Harry’s Hideaway thought he was a gay twink trying to sneak in an issue of Uncanny X-Men.
People who hate the reveal that he’s gay hate it because they used to self insert as Bobby and now what does that say about them.

>>150143001 (OP)
>What was Bobby love life before being outed as gay?
Like the love life of a B-tier character most writers didn't care about. He had a lot of different girlfriends, was clearly straight in his own thoughts, but most love interests didn't last past the book he was in changing writers.

>I heard Scott Lobdell hinted that Iceman was gay in the 90s
Lobdell always denied that's what he was doing. He could easily have earned a lot of Good Boy Points on Twitter by pretending he was implying it, but he instead made fun of Bendis for doing it (someone asked him to turn a character gay on a DC book he was writing and his response was "I'm not Bendis").

What Lobdell and other writers at the time were doing was adding gay prejudice tropes to the black prejudice and Jewish prejudice tropes the X-books had already been applying to mutants, and Bobby was one of the only X-Men who actually had parents who were alive and living in the same state, so he was the one who got a dad who disapproved of him being a mutant and having weird mutant friends. It didn't mean he was gay anymore than Wolfsbane going through a literal slavery storyline meant she was black, but some people were too retarded to get that.

There was also a LOT of taking individual panels completely out of context and deliberately misrepresenting them to pretend there'd been some secret plans since 1963 for Iceman to be a gay, but it's all lies. Like >>150143499 is saying, that pic you've posted is meant to show Bobby is younger and more immature than the other X-Men, the moment he actually sees Jean is meant to be his moment of sexual awakening, the moment he stops thinking girls are icky and gross.

Keep in mind that this was all started by gay X-Men fans in online forums in the early 90s because they thought Iceman was unimportant enough that they could successfully "get" him, and it only ended up happening because Bendis wanted to make sure Bobby could never touch his waifu Kitty ever again.

>>150143800
Stop lying. The bouncer thought he was under age, that's all.

>>150143001 (OP)
In Ultimate X-men when Rogue lost her powers and gained Gambit's one of the first things she does is fuck Bobby

>>150143817
Part of it is the whole "have you tried NOT being a mutant" scene from the first X-Men movie which was done with Iceman and Singer explicitly meant for that scene to be evocative of a gay kid coming out to his parents. And knowing Singer, probably picked Bobby for that scene specifically because he wanted to fuck Shawn Ashmore or something.

>I heard Scott Lobdell hinted that Iceman was gay in the 90s
You heard wrong. A bunch of yaoi-goggled tumblrkin misinterpreted him.
Bendis made Bobby gay because he was mad at Jason Aaron and that was the best way to get back at him.

>>150143908
In Ultimate X-Men Colossus was gay, Nightcrawler was homophobic, and Wolverine impregnated Magneto’s wife

>>150143908
>Ultimate
Does anyone care what happened there

Bendis pushed diversity in comics in part because of his own politics but also because he knew which way the wind was blowing ala adaptations. He was originally on the MCU Creative Committee, comic book creators giving some assistance to the movies. Feige wanted younger and more diverse heroes, in part because Feige was thinking about paying young actors less and having them on cheaper contracts but also because Feige is that way inclined politically (versus Perlmutter who was the oppposite). Basically most of the 2010s diversity push was for MCU reasons and many of these characters are in the MCU now. Bendis got kicked off the Creative Committee because he stole Guardians of the Galaxy movie ideas for his run.

Bendis of course decided to make Iceman gay for diversity points and two reasons:
>1. He was the odd one out compared to others on the team.
>2. Famously Bryan Singer, alleged abuser, had the scene in X-2 where Iceman is asked if he had tried not being a mutant.
>Bonus round: super ironic that Family Guy of all places made Iceman is gay jokes too, in part I think just because Iceman was goofy in Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends.
I don't know if there is a trope for this but there have been cases where people joke about x character being goofy for long enough that they end up in positions like this where the literal joke ends up defining them, almost by sheer momentum.
(1/2)

>>150144191
Into this area comes all the bad faith revisionist small media outlets trying to explain why Bobby was always gay and in their infinite wisdom they had two main arguments:
>Iceman was the kid and goofball of the group early on who was interested in girls but also losing out to the older guys in the team so pretending not to be interested and therefore because he was trying too hard he must be gay because he is OVERCOMPENSATING.
>And then the Scott Lobdell story.
Here we go, this is the "he was always gay" revisionist attempt at a slam dunk, pic related. Bobby goes to his parents house and brings Rogue along, his dad dislikes him and this partly inspired the Bryan Singer thing. The "gay perspective" is: Rogue is Iceman's "beard". A beard is a woman who acts like a gay man's girlfriend (whether she knows it or not) to placate others or themselves into pretending to be straight. The arguments for this are "the undertones" which the writer denies were intended and "Iceman and Rogue weren't well acquainted". This feels more like it is ignoring context because the articles all act like because Iceman and Rogue were strangers and that bringing her along was just because she was hot and not because she was avaliable whilst others were busy and she actively wanted to support him. Ultimately this story is more about how Bobby's dad is a bigot towards mutants.

But retroactive revisionism can turn some youthful awkwardness and a story about a issues with his father into he must be gay.
(2/2)

>>150144242
There's a later story in the Lobdell run where a villain literally punches a hole through Iceman's chest, and he's afraid he'll die instantly if he reverts to human, and he very reluctantly has to turn to Emma for help because she understands his powers and potential better than he does, and people cherry-picked a few out of context panels from these issues, and a conversation between Bobby and Jean in the aftermath of it all, and pretended it was actually all about being gay, which it wasn't.

Then there was the time in the Carey run where he paired Bobby up with Mystique and the retards acted like this was just because Mystique could grow a dick and rail him, though they never said the same about any of the other men she's been with, like Sabretooth, Wolverine, Azazel or Xavier.

>>150144373
>and people cherry-picked a few out of context panels from these issues,
It is exactly like the Rogue story. People cherry pick a story without understanding the context around it. Some characters get paired together as odd ones out because other people are being used for stuff. These odd ones out get turned into something else entirely by the revisionists. Rogue must have been picked on purpose? It isn't like the other X-Men women aren't hot too!

I mean look at the bottom of that page I posted, Bobby is upset that his father is misremembering a partner of his called Opal. Bobby dated Opal. The implication of that panel is that Bobby's father is being a bit offensive too in not remembering her name because it is odd. Opal was also Japanese and we know Bobby's father is a big bigot.

In the storyline of pic related, Opal has a baby and Bobby thinks it could be his. The baby is held hostage and later Bobby recuses the baby but finds out it isn't his but Opal was also dating another man who looked similar to Iceman. I guess according to revisionists he had regrettable sex with Opal or something because he was still working things out.

>>150144061
Nightcrawler also fell in love with Dazzler (I think) and kidnapped her while convincing her the world had ended and it was just them left.

>>150143173
>that time emma frost crawled around in his brain and then called him an interior decorator and he immediately tried to exterminatus her ass
>>150143296
the change is extra retarded because people who liked to speculate about a hidden sexuality already thought he was doing a perfectly fine job of it with his original personality.

>>150143963
that was just a slightly different take on the aforementioned gay tropes added to the comics and the story where bobby takes rogue with him to visit his parents.
as for single panel evidence, that only time i've ever seen that used 'seriously' is here, and the one person doing it is clearly under the impression that people are stupid enough to believe they're not false flagging.

>>150144601
Holy fuck. The degree to which Ultimate reveals how retarded it became is staggering to me.
>>150144005
Lobdell seems based to me. Is there some section of his works that are bad? Like in general and not X-Men? I just know he's the stopping point for me before the retardation of Morrison's X-Men.

If I were to undo Bobby's homowashing, I'd call it the snowjob arc and then show it was some iceclone and Bobby grew disilluisioned with Xavier and Cyke. He felt bad he ran away to a chill spot like the one his stage in COTA is based on. I dunno something like that which doesn't assassinate his character and gets rid of this shit.

>>150144191
>I don't know if there is a trope for this but there have been cases where people joke about x character being goofy for long enough that they end up in positions like this where the literal joke ends up defining them, almost by sheer momentum.
My theory is almost entirely that it is an aesthetics thing which creates a joke and eventually someone takes a joke seriously.
>OG Bobby would look like a snowman often.
>He evolved into his cueball look.
>Cueball look feels goofy as fuck and was mocked.
>People begin to associate corny or goofy looking characters with stereotypes or things they think are bad.
>So Iceman is goofy and therefore he is gay.
>If you wanted to play X-men with your friends, you want to be Wolverine, not Iceman, he looks gay.
So I fully believe that the weird or goofy one gets joked about as "being gay" and then becomes it. I'm sure some revisionist would say it is "reclaiming the weird queer one" or something, but I think it is almost like letting the joke get taken seriously. It wouldn't be the first time a writer took a joke seriously, I don't think it was reclaiming anything, I think Bobby just looked goofy to people.

People tried to make Bobby look icey/jagged as almost a movement away from cueball goofball. And now we have gone to super twink, pure zest Bobby. I think his character developed because of perceptions of the damn aesthetic.

>>150144622
The "interior decorator" line was specifically a joke because Bobby had iced up the whole of Emma's office. It's people ignoring the actual context of the story and trying to pretend it was a gay thing.

>>150144711
I've seen people here insisting that Iceman being gay was always intended from Lee & Kirby onwards, and every writer was in on it, and the ones saying they weren't writing him as gay are just lying because reasons. It was really difficult to tell if the guy was trolling or some retarded secondary who actually believed it.

>>150145080
https://uncannyxmen.net/characters/iceman/costume-gallery
Gallery link with his looks over the years too. Forgot to include it with my last post.

>>150145097
>I've seen people here insisting that Iceman being gay was always intended from Lee & Kirby onwards
>It was really difficult to tell if the guy was trolling or some retarded secondary who actually believed it.
100% a troll. The big problem is that people use the "he was the young guy of the group" and the odd panel like OP to imply he must be gay retroactively in some shitty articles. Lee wrote Iceman of the try hard youngest of the group. But you even get an issue like #18 where Bobby fucked around with Magneto and proved himself a bit.

>>150144900
Lobdell was unironically one of the best X-Men writers, who was good at character-spotlight stories, and was from a better era before the books went full retard, but he and other writers of the time got a lot of hate from the fandom, often just for not being Claremont. You might think how bad things have gotten since would lead to those years getting re-evaluated and seen as not so bad, but you'd be wrong.

I haven't read his later DC work, I think it's mostly on Red Hood books.

>I just know he's the stopping point for me before the retardation of Morrison's X-Men.
The X-Men preventing WW3 by Logan killing Magneto really is the perfect place to just drop out and pretend nothing since ever happened.

>>150145097
i know it wasn't meant to mean gay. it's just funny to look at now.
i have to assume those guys insisting on some plan are just trolling, because that has never been part of the discourse amongst people looking for subtext. "intended all along" is simply not a thing people claim unless it actually WAS, and in those cases it's pretty obvious because it doesn't conflict with any previous events.

>>150145941
When Bendis was writing the O5, Marjorie Liu wrote an arc in Astonishing where the death seed and depression made Bobby sad and he tried to cover the world in ice but kidnapped all his ex-girlfriends to protect them. Absolutely nothing about being gay, though Liu tried to save face later and claim that being closeted was part of the subtext. There was no plan. Aaron was still writing X-Men at the time and had dibs on Iceman.

>>150146200
i could kind of buy it being intentional subtext, but the thing about subtext is it's not what actually happens, so you can have almost anything be subtextual for your personal amusement. but i agree there was no plan. this was just bendis acting out because he was mad about kitty and the company trying to play it off.
they really could have done a better job with his development afterward though. i don't know why they thought he needed to act different when he already came across in a way that made the girls and gays question his straightness.

>>150146200
Chuck Austen did something similar, his run explained all of Bobby's failed relationships on him never getting over losing Lorna to Havok when he was a teenager, and there was an issue where Northstar literally tells the readers Iceman isn't gay, but to save face with the segment of the fandom that wanted it, he claimed something about wanting to do it but Marvel wouldn't let him, even though it would've been completely the opposite of what he was actually doing with the character.

>>150143001 (OP)
>no hurry to graduate from this place!

wait, what? are they supposed to be teenagers?
why the fuck do they look like 30 year old men?

did people age faster back in 60s?

>>150146284
the wacky thing, of course, is that that whole sequence was basically a classic gay fiction cliche, including the part where he insists to his bff that the boy he likes is straight. it unironically would have been a significantly better way to handle things if they were going to have bobby hook up with a guy, not least because he still could have been bi and not got a telepath involved.

>>150145097
>I've seen people here insisting that Iceman being gay was always intended from Lee & Kirby onwards
There's a lot of doofuses from Tumblr, Reddit, the old CBR/Newsarama/Scans Daily style places that come here and push their garbage. You get the same thing with people defending Tim Drake being a fag. Their "proof" is saying shit like him not showing interest in women or being reluctant to do things with them or because he was depressed when Connor died. The first is obvious bullshit because Tim had plenty of relationships with women, including ones (like Lynx in Nicieza's Red Robin run) where he blatantly wanted to fuck them. The Superboy thing is because they're too stupid to imagine people being friends without wanting to fuck and ignore the context of that being a really bad time for Tim as in universe he got a lot of shit thrown at him (his dad dying, Bruce dying, Steph's death and return, the shit with Cass) in a relatively short window of time so no shit he'd be depressed his best friend died and overjoyed to see him back.

>>150145222
Probably not a troll. Like I said, the X-Men fanbase in particular has been taken over by fags and troons who only care about which characters are fucking, which characters they can interpret as gay and which characters act like sassy catty bitches that, like I said, act like fucking drag queens. These people have absolutely ruined the X-Men.

>>150147260
>These people have absolutely ruined the X-Men.
True, but now it's literally made by them, for them, and has been for years.

>>150147260
no one is claiming that was literal prior canon evidence though. these are memes that even 4chan has known about for many years. you aren't doing your argument any favors by lying about what you're disagreeing with around people who've been following the discourse for decades.

>>150147332
>the discourse
The bottom line is that anyone agitating to get a straight character turned into a gay character is a bad actor who should have been gatekept out of the fandom. There's no "discourse" to be had with these people.

>>150147260
They said he's bisexual.

>>150144900
>The degree to which Ultimate reveals how retarded it became is staggering to me
Honestly, it sucks but a lot of it is in such an outlandish way that it's unironically a pretty entertaining read.

>>150144900
Lobdell's written plenty of stuff that's not that great. I think he's good at doing more offbeat character driven stories but isn't as good at doing bigger stories. It's why the stuff everyone remembers from his run are things like Illyana's death or Generation X.

He wound up getting cancelled a few years ago over a stupid joke he made at a panel a long time ago.

>>150146284
I honestly just get the impression that gay readers were horny for Iceman and thus would take everything out of context to push it. I guess they always saw him as a cute twink since he was younger and his main outfit was wrestling style briefs and nothing else.

>>150147697
Weirdly, he didn't even seem to be a popular husbando for gay X-fags. Nightcrawler, Colossus, Wolverine, Magneto, Havok and Angel all seemed to have more dudes lusting after them. Iceman was just the one they thought they could actually succeed in getting turned gay, which makes it even worse, as he's just what they were settling for.

I guess the current run stealth-implied Nightcrawler is gay by revealing he parties with furries.

>>150147398
And he's not. The bisexual thing is something they pulled out of their ass because they want a character to be gay, know they're not gay, and see "bisexual" as an easy attempt at getting their way while going "tee hee, but they can still like the opposite sex too" even though 99% of the time it doesn't work like that. The only bisexual character I've seen so far who actually does come off as legitimately bisexual is Black Cat and in fact she's still romantically tied more to Spider-Man than any woman.

But you get cases like Jon Kent, Tim, Prodigy, etc. where the bisexuality is pulled out of their ass and clearly just a handwavey way of making them gay. Then there's the really stupid shit like Mercury being stalked and gaslit into being a dyke or Loa just being a lesbo out of nowhere.

>>150147332
You're one of the retards I'm talking about. Go back to r/xmen so you can yass with the rest of the catty bitches about how deliciously sassy Emma is.

>>150147503
Holy kek that pic. The art and the sudden subversion at the end with it ending on the sole tear down the cheek. Kek.
>>150145257
So people are still shitting on him?
>>150147607
What are the bigger stories that suck and what was the joke?

>>150145057
Oh, the bitter irony. Judging things by how they look in the 00's and then reinterpreting that surface level idea in the 10's to become politically correct when the initial idea was completely wrong in the first place.

>>150147935
>What are the bigger stories that suck
I just think post-Age of Apocalypse the book starts falling off. Onslaught is really fucking bad and Operation: Zero Tolerance is a story with a good premise and some good stuff (Jubilee's portion in Generation X is great) but overall is kind of weak. It's also a little too mired in crossovers and as an overall comic is kind of inferior to Nicieza's X-Men run. He also, infamously, never planned things out and basically just wrote so there was never any long term planning which eventually got on Nicieza's nerves considering how tied together the X-books were. He also did some writing for Excalibur and X-Factor at some point and both of those runs suck.

>joke
I don't remember what it was, it was just some typical bawdy joke. This got a few others to claim he was a serial harasser but his accusers were people like Tess Fowler (who's also the person who got Brian Wood cancelled for the crime of hitting on her once at a con and not pursuing it further when she turned him down) and Alex de Campi (Warren Ellis groupie who's part of the reason Ed Piskor killed himself) so I don't put much stock in it.

>>150148327
It was a bunch of stuff and Scott Lobdell admitted to it and later apologized to her.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140108082218/http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/marinaomi-harassed-comics-panel

>>150148327
To be fair, Nicieza's X-Men seemed to have almost as many detractors, his later Marvel work went a long way towards people having a better opinion of him. Even if he was the one of the two who wanted to plan things out, and give answers to some of the big mysteries, he's also the guy who wasted a lot of time on trying to explain how Psylocke got turned into a ninja, which already had an explanation, and then having to spend more issues trying to reconcile his own story with the earlier one. And he's the guy who started the "third Summers brother" plot, and his answer to the question was a character so lame that editorial wouldn't let him do it, so they both had their bad moments. But generally the good outweighed the bad. Even Onslaught manages to convey a tone of importance and threat level that modern events try but don't really know how to do anymore, while Zero Tolerance ended up being kind of weak because Lobdell thought he'd been writing for long enough that he'd be allowed to seriously shake up the status quo, but editorial said no and fired him. It was supposed to end with Magneto returning and retaliating against OZT by starting the race war, while the X-Men were homeless and on the run.

IIRC Lobdell's work on Excalibur and X-Factor was mostly co-written with other people, the X-Factor issues were co-written with DeMatteis, and weren't bad.

>>150148567
He admitted to the joke and I would bet the "harassment" is taken way out of context. Especially given that one of his accusers is Fowler who, like I said, got Brian Wood cancelled for hitting on her. Fowler is also a notorious drama queen who's pretty known for scamming people (taking payment for art that she then never actually does for instance) and throwing out allegations and accusations if the heat turns on her. I think she herself got effectively cancelled a few years back after starting shit with Critical Role because two of the people involved got weirded out by her doing porn art of their characters or something.

>>150148663
>and his answer to the question was a character so lame that editorial wouldn't let him do it
No, he didn't do it because he got pushed off the X-books because he'd fallen out with Lobdell and Harras and was getting sick of Harras micromanaging the books.

>>150148663
>he's also the guy who wasted a lot of time on trying to explain how Psylocke got turned into a ninja, which already had an explanation, and then having to spend more issues trying to reconcile his own story with the earlier one.
This is on the editor, Bob Harras, especially since he was the X-Men editor when Claremont wrote the first story. It was his job to explain to the new writer "No, we took care of that already."

>>150148740
Nicieza was pushed off X-Force, IIRC he complained that he wasn't even given a reason why (maybe Marvel just really wanted to give Loeb the book), but he quit X-Men of his own choice a few months later, for the reasons you mentioned, along with him taking on an editorial job at Acclaim Comics. But the editors did think Adam X was too lame to be the answer to the brother mystery Nicieza had set up, while Wizard magazine was pushing for it to be Gambit. We really were better off with Vulcan.

>>150148808
He made Adam X work pretty well when he was allowed to tell the story he wanted with some adjustments in X-Men Legends a few years ago.

>>150148784
That's true, but equally, if you're going to write a follow-up to an older story, especially if you think you're addressing a dangling mystery from that story, you really should make sure you read or re-read those old issues yourself first so you don't make any mistakes. It's on both of them. An editor with around 8 books on his plate probably wouldn't instantly recall the details of a story from 4 years earlier, but both of them should have done the research to make sure there weren't any errors.

>>150148025
People judge comic book characters by aesthetics all the time and I think jokes like on Family Guy are entirely about his apperance.

>>150148784
Harras I think didn't care all that much because by that point he was knee deep in his Avengers run. I assume that as long as the books sold he didn't much care by then aside from probably being involved in pushing for crossovers and shit. It's mostly as his run is winding down that he gets back to micromanaging and gets worse after Onslaught when he drove Lobdell and then Kelly and Seagle off the books.

>>150148808
Vulcan was even worse than Adam X. I think a mystery like that had to be a known character to have any impact and in that respect Gambit fit the bill (popular, vaguely similar powers, mysterious past). Having it be a new character was never going to satisfy anyone but Adam X is better for the sheer fact that it would have done no real damage the way Deadly Genesis permanently ruined Xavier by turning him into shady, manipulative asshole Ultimate Xavier. As characters Vulcan and Adam X are equally lame but Vulcan's story did irreperable damage. Also killed Banshee in a pointless death that stuck for a stupidly long time and now that he's back he's like a wimp with PTSD or something which sucks. Banshee is one of my favorite X-Men.

>>150148870
Nicieza did research, he just missed that detail... and I don't blame him. The last few years of Claremont's run are honestly fairly bad, too dense and up its own ass and confusing nonsense. After he revealed the body swap and realized he'd screwed up, though, I think Nicieza made a fairly interesting story out of it with each having bits of the other and their going from antagonistic to making peace and then Kwannon deciding to go out on her own terms when she learns that she's dying. Certainly everything done with both Betsy and Kwannon since "fixing" them a few years ago has been awful and ruined Psylocke as a character and made the whole thing messier. Kwannon especially is like a bad parody of '90s Psylocke.

Also there IS the issue thar after she was turned Asian, Betsy's entire personality changed. She wasn't the kind of shitty, weak and vaguely slutty and useless chick but now Ms. Badass Asskicker so I think Nicieza's call wound up being right in the end just for explaining how she had a totally different personality and top tier fighting skills. They would have still "fixed" Psylocke eventually by making her white again (and probably doing some retarded bullshit to make Asian Psylocke split off from her) in the 2010s so the effect would wind up being the same.

>>150143001 (OP)
Young jean brainwashed bobby into being gay so that she didn't have to deal with the emotional pain of him realizing she was mid.

>>150144373
>though they never said the same about any of the other men she's been with, like Sabretooth, Wolverine, Azazel or Xavier.

Raven is bisexual, just because she might have fucked Bobby in the ass doesn’t automatically mean everyone else she had sex with and was a guy was into that

>>150145057
And what a fucking dumbass theory that is

>>150144373
>Mystique could grow a dick and rail him
H-hot. Bobby was so lucky.

>>150143001 (OP)
friendly reminder one of the writers tried to make beast claim he was gay for no good reason then it was dropped on top of being dumped by trish tilby

>>150150733
That was Morrison and in story it was never meant to be serious, he was just fucking with Trish. Because Beast used to actually be a fun character thanks to Englehart deciding to write him as a witty, laid back and smart stoner (which led to him being fairly popular in the '70s). Hickman and Bendis then went out of their way to destroy him.

>>150144900
>Holy fuck.
>ohh my fauci characters with super powers act like....le normal people would including abuse of said powers and being in passion or attracted to the "wrong" characters? Ohh I will faint, this is so retarded, where is my censored slop I never actually care about!

>>150143296
>You talk as if he was gay all along rather than this being a massive retcon.
I don't really. I'm saying I don't really mind Bobby being gay if it was actually done tastefully instead of being token representation and a retarded coming out story to go with it

>>150144109
outside of Spider-Man and maybe the first Ultimates run, no not really

>>150148870
>>That's true, but equally, if you're going to write a follow-up to an older story, especially if you think you're addressing a dangling mystery from that story, you really should make sure you read or re-read those old issues yourself first so you don't make any mistakes.
This was a lot harder back then. There were no trades, there were no digital issues. Marvel had no copies on hand to give, once a print run was done, that was it, they didn't keep spare copies. He'd have to go to a comic shop and hope they had those backissues in stock and pay for them, possibly at a higher cost than the cover price. Who wants to do that for a freelance gig?

>>150150454
It is fucking dumb but people in comics are fucking dumb. Bendis picked the one who had been joked about. Family Guy joked Iceman was gay and letter he became gay.

>>150153743
If true that Marvel didn't even have any internal archive writers could use, that's a really strong argument against writing retcons to older stories at all unless you have the old issues right in front of you before you start.

In the current era where people are using wikipedia for research things aren't much different, people shouldn't retcon stories they haven't fully read and understood, that Mockingbird solo book stands as the example of what can happen.

>>150143001 (OP)
he was in love with kitty pryde in the best astonishing x-men run ever.

>>150143462
Rachel is in Xmen97. Not a fan, but she might become popular.

>>150143908
That would make Gambit gay, not Bobby.

>>150143817
>Bobby was one of the only X-Men who actually had parents who were alive and living in the same state, so he was the one who got a dad who disapproved of him being a mutant and having weird mutant friends. It didn't mean he was gay anymore than Wolfsbane going through a literal slavery storyline meant she was black, but some people were too retarded to get that.
The second x-men movie didn't help much, tbf. The difference is that I know how allegories work and a bunch of idiots can't.
Bobby isn't gay, he's out of the ordinary and his parents reacted similarly to the parents of one gay kid. If you'd told your parents you don't want to follow the family profession, they'd have acted the same way.

>>150144191
>Iceman was goofy in Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends.
Didn't he also wanted to ask our Angelica?

Has a character ever recovered from the gayfication?
Not saying they reverted it and marvel said x was no longer gay, but maybe that it plays both fields and dates both boys and girls, depending on the writer.

>>150147697
No, they just care about characters being a minority in some way. They don't care about anything else.

>Utopia/Nation X
Since the X-Men moved to Utopia, Iceman had the labor of providing water to the population. He attempted to use humor to keep everyone's spirits up even though he believed that the situation was helpless and that the X-Men were living in the last days of mutantkind. Bobby then helped defeat Predator X and also helped stop Selene's resurrected army's invasion of Utopia.

>Second Coming
When the Nimrods attacked Utopia he received some serious burns, that passed through his ice form and forced him to turn back into his normal human state. However, shortly thereafter, Bobby re-entered his ice form and healed the burns, then assisting Psylocke to take down a Nimrod. He only had minor scarring.

>Regenesis
After the effects of Schism, Iceman was the first person asked by Wolverine to join the School in Westchester. He officially is the bookkeeper of the School and teaches algebra and art of Ice Sculpture. During the first attack on the new school, Bobby stepped up like Logan wanted him to and became a big factor in defeating the Hellfire Club.

>>150144242
The most deranged take on this is that Bobby purposefully brought Rogue with him because he knew he couldn't fuck her so he was safe. Or worse, that he was gay all along because he didn't want to fuck her.
First, if he even tried, he'd be dead. Second, he knew she was hurt by Gambit and he's smart enough to not try to be the rebound of someone he works with. He was in fact the only one who told her that Gambit just kept lying to her (as in he didn't tell her he was married).
This talks of how hypersexual these people are. Two people can't have any connection that isn't fucking, apparently. Bobby didn't try to bang Rogue? That means he's gay because they should otherwise be having sex every time they're together. That's how human interactions work.

A reminder that in 2012, Asmus had asked Marvel to make Gambit bisexual because he wanted him to be involved with a man from the guilds in the past. Nevermind that for this to happen, not only he had to be underage, but it implied he never loved Belladona, which is false.
Marvel rejected this because they said it would deviate from the actual characterization of the character. The gays still insist Gambit is bi or coded bi, despite Marvel saying otherwise.
Maybe, if Marvel had agreed, Gambit would have been the one sacrificed to be the first big gay name of the team. Didn't work out, so it had to be Bobby.

>>150143001 (OP)
It surprises me that people put so much thought into one of the lamest X-Men that never really grow in importance even with the X-Men movies push. It really shows that character-fags are the worse thing that happen to cape comics.

>>150154554
Iceman was an all right fellow. The vast majority of the X-Men can't hold a solo, they're a team book.

>>150143173
Darkstar wasn't interested in him anyway, so it didn't matter if she understood he was actually gay or not.

Didn't they also do this to the golden age Green Lantern? Even after the multiverse rebooting and all he's still gay isn't he?

>>150143235
It was so sudden that I believe the theory that Teen Jean made him gay for the lulz.

>>150151033
>That was Morrison and in story it was never meant to be serious, he was just fucking with Trish.
Morrison self-inserted as him, because of it he was possessed by the sublime, mirroring Morrison's own health issues.

>>150153888
I guarantee that the amount of people nostalgic for Excalibur is in the single digits. I only read that filth during X-over events.

>>150154632
>The vast majority of the X-Men can't hold a solo,
Other than Wolverine, who actually can?

>>150155605
He was gay in the Earth 2 series after the reboot and they decided to bring it over to the real universe too. Which is another thing, once something happens in other universes/media now it migrates over. So expect Norman Osborn to be black some time in the next few years.

>>150156046
Magik's latest has been doing surprisingly well, but that may be a flash in a pan, a Rivals popularity boost.
Cable had some longrunning solos in the past but he's over the hill now. And then there's Deadpool, who debuted in X-Force which makes him an X-character even if not an actual X-Man.

>>150156046
Gambit, when given a good writer that's not a thirsty woman.

>>150157036
Magik's Rivals popularity might be given her a big boost, but I agree with Cable. We need a Cable, Logan, Gambit combo at some point.

>>150157036
It's entirely because of the gooner covers.

>>150156165
Seems unlikely. The movies are way more popular than the current cartoon. Won't be a black Norman Osborn in the comics until the current movie iteration is.

>>150157078
Gambit's never been able to go more than two years. Peter David also grumbled about the character's waning popularity when X-Factor was cancelled. https://www.peterdavid.net/2014/10/01/x-factor/

>This isn’t a secret because I announced it back at Dragon*Con, but Bleeding Cool seems compelled to announce it incorrectly by stating that X-Factor is cancelled with #19.

>Which is not true. It’s cancelled with #20.

>Also for some reason Bleeding Cool is associating it with the fact that Quicksilver will be returning to the Avengers and that’s why the book is going away. No, it’s because not enough people are buying it. Which is exactly the reason they cancelled “Gambit” as well, so it’ll probably be a long time before he gets to star in another book.

>All I did was write a book that got tons of positive write-ups. Which I guess is enough to encourage people to buy it when it comes out in trades, oblivious to the fact that books get cancelled when you do that. Whatever.

>>150157773
In 2014, it was comics in general being in trouble. Him having a boost in 2024 due to a sudden popularity could have meant a comic, but there is nobody to write it.

>>150157773
Remember when a book getting cancelled meant no solo book for a character "for a long time"? yet look at how many times Carol Danver's books got cancelled and relaunched in the last 15 years

>>150157961
She doesn't have a book now and the future one is an X-Men story that just happens to have her because of team history if that makes you feel better.

>>150158085
They were forcing her hard because of the upcoming movie and after The Marvels flopped there was really no sense in doing it anymore.

>>150147784
>I guess the current run stealth-implied Nightcrawler is gay by revealing he parties with furries.
Does that really imply it? To my knowledge not all furries are gay. Nevertheless Kurt is popular with the gays and an issue of Uncanny X-Men did point that out.

>>150147798
Bisexuality has nothing to do with who someone is with in the long or short term as attraction is not measured by relationships. Besides there are characters like Catwoman, Wonder Woman, Constantine, etc. Whom have been with more partners of the opposite sex.

>>150158104
Gambit was one of the highlights of D&W and the MVP of X-men 97, the one that's back next year and they still haven't announced anything with Gambit that isn't somehow related to his less popular wife.
Industry has their favs and these aren't always the same as the audience tends to like.

>>150158435
That's because Gail Simone is in control and she's a dirty sexually frustrated fujoshi.

>>150143817
It doesn't help when you got writers like Marjorie Liu who fans the flames by claiming that all the X-writers knew that Bobby was gay and that editorial was waiting for the "perfect opportunity" to out him.

>>150158527
She may be so but is she wrong on that front? I don't think so.

>>150158534
>Marjorie Liu
Just you wait. Johnny will come out as bi soon enough. If you got additional writers like Anthony Oliveira fueling the fire too.

>>150158685
>ex-Living Lightning
>Iceman
>Human Torch
Finally, the legendary birds.

>>150157773
The decline of once popular 90s characters like Gambit and Cable in the 2000s seemed to be partly because people within Marvel by then were all "reeeee 90s" and didn't want them around, and if you demote a character to less important books for long enough, their popularity will decline. Someone like Cable was so tied to the early 90s aesthetic that he was probably never going to be as popular as that once times had changed, but with some of the other characters it was just a needless self-inflicted wound, and now they don't really sell anymore.

>>150157961
Marvel and DC both have a number of characters where they seem to have committed to "this character is going to have their own book whether it sells or not", and yearly relaunches let them treat the different volumes like seasons of a TV show, rather than treating the previous volume ending as a cancellation. Carol's constant relaunches were a symptom of much wider issues with Marvel's business model, but a lot of people can't see past any book ending as "cancellation because low sales so why are you relaunching?" when some of the books in question weren't planned to last beyond 10-12 issues in the first place.

>>150158867
DeConnick and Stohl's runs getting renumbered felt more like a desperation boost than a new season.

>>150159407
That is a symptom of a wider problem, thoughever. It wasn't the only book that was doing that, and relaunching for the hope of a new #1 giving a sales spike, and using a new storyline or a change of artist as a weak excuse for a relaunch. There are enough things about modern Carol we can complain about without pretending that she was the only character going through constant relaunches.

>>150145097
There's also this from X-Men Vol. 2, #46, that seemed like it was going to follow up on the interior decorator line, but it turned out to be Bobby asking Jean if there were still any traces of Emma in his mind.

>>150159885
>>150144622
What is it with telepaths making people gay?

>>150159885
>that seemed like it was going to follow up on the interior decorator line
Only in the minds of idiots who actually thought the "interior decorator line" had anything to do with gays instead of the actual context of the story. Of course this page "turned out" to be about Bobby wanting to talk to Jean about things that had actually been happening to him in the comics.

>>150159984
Dude, I thought Bendis making Bobby gay was sloppy bullshit but that is very obvious gay-teasing in that page.

>>150160144
Lobdell wrote those issues and he has stated that there was no gay subtext intended whatsoever on his part.

>>150160144
Sure, anon. Someone wanting to ask for help about something they're uncomfortable talking about HAS to be about being gay, even if the writer has stated that's not what he was doing. You can't possibly just be seeing what you want to see, and normal people who aren't even thinking about the gays all the time and have actually been reading the book might know the actual context for what he'd been going through.

>>150157951
All New all Different + New52 killed comics

Booby's dream is to fall off a parachute in a forest full ol erect cocks so his hungry ass eats all of them.
And thats the bottom line.

>>150143800
>effeminate
How so?

>>150160144
This is not r/xmen. Fuck off.

>>150161128
Just look at this page, he looks like a total fag

>>150159885

>>150161859
That's just 90s fashion.

>>150162357
>That's just 90s fashion.
No, it's not. Because both of these pages are from the 90's and in one he looks manly and in other fruity as fuck.
>>150159885
>>150144242

>>150162783
He's dressed up for dinner with his parents in one and casually in the other. I can assure you that Andy Kubert was not trying to make Iceman look gay.

>>150143235
yeah, it's a combination between the most uncomfortable coming-out scene in comic history and the subsequent reduction of his personality to "The gay one" that are the real problems here.

>>150163391
I still think that the idea that you can retcon a character that old into being gay is a pretty big problem. The main problem being that unlike other retcons this one is effective irreversible because it would give so much bad press

>>150161859
Compared to this? >>150163631

So does Iceman have an actual boyfriend, or does he just sleep around?

>>150163655
He's been an absolute slut. Especially these last few years. Which kind of sucks in my opinion. But a lot of these writers want to portray him as a gay man only interested in casual hookups.

>>150163631
>>150163709
Why are gay draw this way? Those faces are too creepy

>>150143252
*And insisting upon the idea that he's "full gay" not even bisexual at the very least.

>>150163764
That's just Luciano Vecchio's style. Not too fond of it either.

They should have a bigger, gayer evil Iceman as his rival he is unsure if he wants to fight or fuck. Maybe calls Bobby Icetwink.

>>150157961
Carol gets books because Marvel is desperate for a Wonder Woman.

>>150164079
Then they should have had the original Miss America not die in childbirth.

>>150164040
Why not Daken?

>>150164129
He's more or less a good guy now.

>>150164152
True. Still think it'd be something interesting for Iceman other than his usual pogo sticking. Are Daken, Aurora, and Somnus still a thing?

>>150143001 (OP)
I always said that making the character getting dicked in the ass wasn't such a big deal because Bobby most of the time looked like a faggy twink... but after watching some of the images itt I can said that the character is lost. Salt the earth and throw him out of the books.

>>150143308
>inb4 alt universe

>>150143001 (OP)
Bobby was retconned to be gay because of the "Have you tied not being a mutant" scene in X2 and because Bendis didn't like that he was portrayed as a love interest to his waifu Kitty Pryde.

>>150148808
Nicieza quit X-Men because he explicitly wanted to advance the Gambit/X-Traitor storyline with the angle where Rogue would find out, after kissing Gambit seconds before the M'Krann Crystal killed everyone in Legion Quest, that Gambit was hired by Mr Sinister to infiltrate the X-Men via befriending Storm and spy on them for him.

Bob Harras flat out REFUSED to allow the story to see print, as he by that point considered Gambit an A-List character on par with Wolverine and Spider-Man and thought it would ruin him forever. When Niceiza fought Harras hard on it, Harras's compromise was to do a purposely vague as fuck arc where Rogue flips out and runs away from the team due to something she saw in the memories she absorbed from Gambit, with Iceman with her to try and keep her safe (since she was flashing back and forth from thinking she was Gambit and committing robberies and refusing to talk to Bobby about what she saw in Gambit's memories) and Gambit freaking out that Rogue saw something that was never stated and Psylockes finding out what the memory was and promptly freaking out over it/not telling anyone about it and then getting mauled by Sabretooth, resulting in her not being able to tell anyone about it.

In X-Men #45, in a story that was widely reviled at the time, Rogue and Gambit finally reunite and we get the mother of all intelligence insulting dicktease as Fabian has Rogue and Gambit arguing over what Rogue saw in Gambit's memories without EXPLICITLY stating what she saw and then telling Bobby that she's quitting the X-Men rather than stay with the team so long as Gambit was on it. Then Gambit being left alone and being confronted by Sinister, who AGAIN has a cryptic and vague as fuck conversation implying that Sinister knows something about Gambit that he's sort of but not really going to exploit non-ending that Nicieza was then told, when the issue was submitted, that he would NEVER be allowed to follow up on, leading to him to quit

>>150155605
New 52 Alan Scott was made gay by James Robinson in a half-assed way to "make up for" how New 52 nuked/erased Obsidian (Alan's gay son) from continuity and explicitly stated that it only fucking applied to the New 52 version featured in the Earth 2 comic NOT any classic versions or future versions.

Robinson got fired and Jim Lee got SUPER fucking pissed at how New 52 failed miserably and in particular how it failed so miserably that TPTB overruled him on his demand that Superman's only love interest had to be Wonder Woman and bring back Dan Jurgens (IE the Chris Claremont of Post-Crisis Superman) to unfuck the character and restore the Super-Marriage. In a fit of rage, Jim Lee (who knew how unpopular gay New 52 Alan Scott was) demanded/declared that going forward ALL versions of Alan Scott, no exceptions, had to be faggots purely to spite comic fans who hated New 52.

This created MASSIVE controversy and fucking up continuity big time and Geoff Johns didn't fucking help matters caving 100% to Lee's evil edict to "own the chuds!".

Sadly, no one wanted to fix shit because of the implications and Johns made shit worse by literally stating that ALL PREVIOUS LORE AND CANON INVOLVING ALAN BEING STRAIGHT WAS TIME MANIPULATION, via the bullshit introduction of "The Golden Age Red Lantern"; a character who was Alan's one true love who made him realize he was a faggot and mortal enemy. And that the ONLY ONLY ONLY reason Alan Scott would ever be straight, let alone have kids, was due to outside influences removing all traces of Golden Age Red Lantern from the timeline. And that Pre and Post Crisis and Post-Infinity Crisis were the "tampered" timelines where Alan was forcibly turned straight by removing the man who made him realize he was queer.

>>150158534
Liu had a gun to her head when she said that. It later came out that Marvel, to protect Bendis's fee-fees from the backlash, were threatening writers left and right by telling them they'd neve work for Marvel again if they didn't kiss Bendis's ass and back up his lies about Bobby always being gay. Lobdell and Austen both stated as much when they refuted Bendis's bullshit and Louis Simonson basically refused to comment. Liu however was a literal who and had to kiss Bendis's ass and sell the retcon while Stan Lee's greedy fucking family gave a similar "Bendis was right!" garbage statement.

>>150163463
The bigger problem is that writers were allowed to make massive changes to the identity of older characters they didn't create in the first place. Once they were allowed to start changing characters' race or ethnicity, we were on a slippery slope to them being allowed to make straight characters gay, and social media has made all of it impossible to undo.

It's increasingly obvious that the minority of people who actually WANT gay superheroes in their Marvel and DC don't actually want to spend their money on an ongoing comic, they just want coming out stories. A constant stream of coming out stories featuring established characters that have been around for years, not some OC. And every time it happens, they end up like Bobby here, they're as good as dead to everyone else, and sales poison.

>>150165370
>his waifu Kitty Pryde.
Too bad for him, eh?

>>150165541
>to "make up for" how New 52 nuked/erased Obsidian (Alan's gay son) from continuity
Obsidian was originally meant to be a straight character who just wasn't stereotypically masculine, a walking lesson on not judging people by appearances, he's another character who got turned gay by a later writer, possibly the DC pedo. This simply happened so long ago that too many people think he was always gay.

As for the gay Alan Scott starting as an AU character, that just seems to be how things work now. In the 2000s, Ultimate Colossus could be gay and people were intelligent enough to understand it wouldn't affect 616 Colossus or adaptations. By the 2010s, if an AU or an adaptation had a version of a character who wasn't straight or white, there'd be a big push that all iterations of the character had to be like that from then on.

>>150165557
There's actual video footage of Stan Lee reacting in surprise when he's told Iceman is gay now.

>>150158867
Cable actually was seeing a major upswing in likes by the late 80s and only hit the skids when Rob Liefeld bullied his way back onto the book and derailed the plans for The Twelve by demanding Cable become a team-up book so he could draw other characters alongside Cable.

Gambit got fucked over because of the garbage payoff to the Sinister secret storyline plus over-exposure due to how the Gambit/Rogue/Joseph-Magneto love triangle hijacked the X-Books and the bullshit that happened involving him in 1998.

(For those not aware, Gambit was written off the team in UXM #350 so he could finally be spun off into his own book but Harras couldn't find anyone willing to write it, leading to him having to crawl back to Nicieza to do so. So Gambit was MIT for about a year and in the meantime Joe Kelly and Steve Seagle took over the X-Men to critical and commercial acclaim and had a big storyline planned where Jean would go Dark Phoenix for real after MODAK and AIM kidnapped and killed Cyclops. The planned storyline was killed because Harras finally decided to kill Excalibur once and for all and restore the early 80s X-Men roster for the 35th Anniversary of the X-Men. Seagle and Kelly desperately wanted to keep Jean and Scott around and still do the story, but they were told to fuck off as Harras wanted to permanently retire Scott and Jean and instead demand that they put Marrow (who is Harras's waifu) and Gambit (his husbando) on the team instead, as by this point Gambit's solo book had a writer in Nicieza and it was ready to publish, with Harras wanting Gambit pushed hard in the X-Books to shill his ongoing.

Needless to say, for X-Men fans already fed up with the love triangle crap, this was a bridge to fucking far and it pretty much turned a huge chunk of X-Men fandom against Gambit for good. To the point that it wasn't until Milligan and Carey runs that Gambit started to recover from the huge hatedom that existed within fandom towards Gambit

>>150165598
>By the 2010s, if an AU or an adaptation had a version of a character who wasn't straight or white, there'd be a big push that all iterations of the character had to be like that from then on.
I'm still mad about Nick Fury

>>150163655
His main boyfriend is an Inhuman who looks like Freddy Mercury who turned out to be a honeytrap that seduced Bobby's teenage self on orders of Medusa so that he would give up X-Men secrets during the Inhuman genociding mutants era. When they got rid of the teen OG X-Men, they had to shelf the guy for a bit to age him up so he could legally date adult Iceman and they got back together during the last Hellfire Gala.

>>150164129
Daken should just have a threesome with Bobby and Johnny.

>>150151033
>fake being gay to spite someone
that's just as bad if not worse

>hickman went out of their way
i thought beast was depicted fairly in illuminati/secret war avengers whatever it's called when there were colliding universes

>>150165915
Based

>>150165500
That number is in fact quite liked by Gambit fans due to the dialogue.
I think Gambit would have survived being the traitor because so far he had proved himself that he was popular and all they had to say was that he didn't want to be with Sinister anymore. It could have been an interesting plot, and to be fair, much more than their stupid romance drama.
When Nicieza took Gambit later for a solo, he had good stories and was a success, and that's because there was no Rogue drama around. They actually broke up and that's the best thing that could have happened to him as a character. Their relationship is the most tiresome dynamic of this franchise, imo.

>>150165500
>In X-Men #45, in a story that was widely reviled at the time,
Was it really, I liked it. Good drama. I imagine a person would only hate it because it brought conflict into their preferred ship.
Not long after they decided the big secret was that he helped with the Morlock massacre which seemed a sensible outcome.
>>150165600
I don't remember anyone hating Claremont's take on Gambit in the early 00s.

>>150166021
She hurt him first by dumping him over the phone because she was freaked out over his cat mutation and a tabloid said she was engaging in bestiality. Then she tried to move back into his life when, overnight, mutants became cool and hip, so he told her he was gay to hurt her. Then he ran with it to serve as a role model to young gay mutants, which Morrison himself also did with the enby stuff a few years ago.

>>150165557
Ehhhhh, I don't think when she wrote Bobby in Astonishing X-Men there was any subtext of him being gay but she was on the X-Men forums back in the day, I could absolutely see her latching onto the idea that Bobby was gay from the forums.

>>150165598
That sounds like Wolfman's statement on not intending Jericho to be gay, are you sure you're not mixing him and Obsidian up? Roy Thomas was originally going to have a third kid that Alan had who was going to be The Jester and was going to be gay but he decided to nix the character.

>>150165557
>Liu however was a literal who and had to kiss Bendis's ass
Liu was not a literal who. Also at the time she was already publishing Monster and not working on Marvel so really doesn't had any incentive to back up Bendis outside of personal preferences.

>>150165595
With Marvel timescale, Kitty isn't like 24 years old?

>>150168808
I thought she'd be in her thirties by now at least.

>>150169298
Being younger than Spider-Man means that will not be allowed.

>>150169346
oh

>>150160443
...

>>150152882
Ok fag next you'll tell me that writers making AU's where the characters are supposed to be the same except one plot detail changes or the context changes to suit current year and then that gives them the right to make everyone act OOC is an ok thing. Because Nightcrawler being a hero, a religious person, and a swashbuckling carefree guy are all pretty baked into him and you get rid of that or make him secretly a guy who gaslights people into fucking him just screams edgy like late 00's Ultimate was. I don't need retarded writers tackling things rhey can't even possibly write well.
>>150154554
Character-fags? Wdym?
>>150165557
Ugh. What a shitshow.

>>150143308
Tell that to Alan Scott

>>150144005
Kek
I was expecting him to dance around throwing shade in a subtle way and he just dropped that bomb

>>150163792
That wouldn't matter. Any time a character is "bisexual" they're written as gay. Once Tim Drake was retconned into being bisexual, he awkwardly broke up with Stephanie just so he gets to have a gay boyfriend.

>>150170917
Ahem. >>150158484
Not to mention it doesn't completely invalidate Bobby's prior romantic relationships.

Guys, what if Emma just turns him back to heterosexual? It would create more complex continuity problems and a massive shitstorm but if you could do it without all the other Marvel creatives immediately seeing you as a paraiah and undoing Emma doing that, would you make that happen?

>>150171310
She has a gay brother, she'd never do that. Also >>150159932

>>150171418
Why do faggy writers always do that trope of having the protag narrate and then having another character use the same words verbaitim? That joke worked like once. If I could be this lazy with my job I'd be paranoid as shit all the time about losing my job if I put shit like this in books. Also man how do these degenerate writers act so morally high and mighty but fail to see how defiling and mortifying it is to have telelpaths do that shit? Like it's the same retardation and blinders that Slott has or that WW84 scene. The only reason I can see one of them doing this is like doing it to conversion therapy crazies like Reavers or Purifiers as an ironic punishment forcing them to have interest in a sex they don't like. But even then that's fighting a form of coercion with coercion or assault with assault.
>>150165613
So they turned him into a battered wife as well. Ugh. Damn it is however very accurate to how people who suddenly suffer an identity crisis are vulnerable to crazies and exploitation by weirdos. Though I guess they call that empowering nowadays.
My Bobby would fly into the x-mansion with a cold breeze immediately making all the x-babe's nipples hard.

>>150169298
She became a X-men at 13 years old. How many years has been pushed by the Marvel time scale? 10, 12 years?

>>150168784
You're responding to the guy who makes up behind the scenes stories which usually wind up being "X was forced by Y to Z."

>>150171951
Is it the same schizo that say Geoff Jones fought against the editorial to stop some nobody writer to make Conner come out as trans?

>>150171896
Around there, a bit less. When she joined the X-Men, Spider-Man was a college graduate so if they were being equal, she'd only be 19 now. But Ellis wrote her as an adult during his 90s Excalibur run, then Claremont aged her down to 18, then she gradually aged up a bit again.

>>150171611
They would call him an immature child, and then he gets locked into another cycle of trying to be a man.

>>150168152
Believe it or not, 1980s DC had TWO heroes like this, who ended up getting turned gay by later writers. Wolfman and Perez were originally going to make Jericho gay, but decided against it as it would be stereotyping, while Obsidian was meant to be a lesson against making assumptions about people, a character whose teammates thought he was gay, but it turned out that he wasn't.

Allowing later writers to change characters' sexuality means it the question "is this guy gay?" even gets asked, the answer will eventually be "yes" even if it wasn't supposed to be.

>>150165600
>Cable actually was seeing a major upswing in likes by the late 80s and only hit the skids when Rob Liefeld bullied his way back onto the book and derailed the plans for The Twelve by demanding Cable become a team-up book so he could draw other characters alongside Cable.
The Casey/Ladronn run on Cable was getting praised by critics and had a loyal audience, but it was one of the lower selling ongoing X-books in the late 1990s, that was why Liefeld wanted back onto the book, but Marvel dicked him around and he only ended up doing 3 issues, and sales didn't get much of a boost. IIRC he'd drawn an issue leading into the Twelve event only for Marvel to change their plans so much that the whole issue got scrapped.

The story behind the Twelve event is even worse. Originally a Louise Simonson idea from a few 1980s stories, and referenced once or twice in the early 90s, Lobdell was planning to make it an X-book event for after Zero Tolerance, and had a few issues in 96-7 seeding plots for it. After he got fired, Casey picked it up as a story for Cable's book, only for editorial to decide in 1999 that they wanted to turn it into a bigger year-ending event that was mostly plotted out at the 11th hour, while trying to assure readers this was a story Marvel really had been building up to for over 10 years.

>>150173929
Continuing in response to >>150165600 most of the things that happened in the 90s didn't really hurt Gambit's popularity that much. Even it 100% of all the behind the scenes mess you're talking about is indeed true, none of it ended up mattering when compared to the treatment he got in the 2000s. When Morrison, Casey and Claremont divided up the X-Men roster in 2001, none of them wanted him. Fan demand eventually got him added to Claremont's book, but the 2000s were an era where there was one clearly defined 'main' X-Men book, the cast of that book were the core characters and the others were the B-books. A lot of characters who used to be important core roster characters like Gambit, Rogue, Psylocke and even Storm found themselves stuck in the B-tier books and their importance declining as a result, in some cases it did damage their popularity. The only writer in the early to mid 2000s who seemed to want Gambit around was Austen.

>>150143001 (OP)
Someone should write a metacomic about superhero characters being wrongfully outed by companies to cash in on the zeitgeist.

>>150150733
the reason was "supergenius mad scientist is bad at relationships + lol gay = funny"

>>150176237
But he seems to go through women like tissues

>>150153957
daken had a girlfriend while he was on the krakoan detective x-factor team

>>150167486
but all of that is stupid because if he just had beast date wonderman and be bi instead of gay, it would be far more believable. whatever

>>150159885
he sure LOOKS gay lol

>>150163709
he went from making a pass at every other girl he meets to making a pass at every other guy he meets, and gay guys are more open to hookups than most straight girls are. it makes sense but I still don't really like it

>>150146329
>did people age faster back in 60s?

Your generation ages much slower if anything

>>150177902
>I still don't really like it
same

>>150143001 (OP)
>outed
Retconned. Because of a Family Guy bit.

>made ONE(1) good comic 25 years ago
>is then allowed to assassinate everyone's characters forever
How does he do it & how do we stop him?

>>150143250
Bobby got tons of pussy prior to Benis' run.

>>150143001 (OP)
Imagine being a "mutant" and the only power your get is flight. Like you are just some dude who still has to obey aerodynamics.

>>150143001 (OP)
Beast should've been gay

>>150180605
The only thing that can stop Jewish nepotism is Jewish nepotism.

>>150181375
They ironically hate him too much to ever condemn him to the queer ghetto since those guys at least get yearly queer pride issues

>>150176851
They call him Beast but all I see here is a dawg

Does people actually care about Iceman? Before the retcon no one seemed to care about Bobby, Even with the films popularity i never heard anyone say "Iceman is my favorite"

>>150184311
He was Jason Aaron's favorite character and Bendis ruined him out of spite.

>>150184675
Was he? If anything Aaron also suffered from a acute syndrome of Kity derangement and push her at the front of his stories. Even Toad and Page Guthrie seemed more prominent.

>>150184311
I dunno if "care" is the right word, but he was popular enough. He was part of a Spiderman cartoon in the 80s and he was in four X-Men movies. Thing is, he was not in the 90s cartoon, which is what gave that specific group mainstream recognition to the point people don't know Bobby and Warren were part of the original team.
Bobby has cool powers, but he's terribly underused.

>>150180677
I'm sure Warren also has super strength.

>>150184311
I did but only because I grew up watching reruns of Spider-Man & His Amazing Friends