Thread 150206798

>Mom, I want Dick Grayson
>You can't get Dick, we have Robin at home.
Why does Great Value Robin have so many die-hard fans?

>>150206798 (OP)
Not since they made him into guys

>>150206798 (OP)
Pure Edge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuiZGuRh858

>>150206798 (OP)
Those people grew up with Tim as their Robin. Those poor bastards.

>>150206853
I grew up with Tim Drake as MY Robin.
I still recognize that he went to shit over 20 years ago.

>>150206798 (OP)
Why did they get rid of Tim's old costume for this current bullshit? His OG costume was way better.

>>150206886
the red and black look is kino though? it's probably the best variation on a robin costume. i agree the modern looks are shit, but this one is kino

>>150206886
Red and Black is more uniquely Tim. The Neal Adams design is equally associated with Dick.

>>150206798 (OP)
Because people like dick as nightwing and tim fills the robin role while not stepping on dick's toes at all, fuffiling its primary role of being the watson to batman's sherlock. And you know, he has an origin people like.

And come on, every batman character is hugely popular.
>>150207286
The OYL suit was given to jason and damian too. And tim wore a damian inspired costume in gotham knights.

>Great value robin
That's pre crisis jason.

>>150207326
>Because people like dick as nightwing and tim fills the robin role while not stepping on dick's toes at all
it's funny how nobody ever seems to want to genuinely do Jason as Robin. like. genuinely, genuinely. he's always just there to eventually become Red Hood. nobody wants to just write or do anything with Jason where he's just Robin and that's all he's intended to be.

>>150207357
this

OP is prob a damian fag or some shit. tim was robin for an entire generation and a half of fans. there's nothing great value about him. had the longest running title (and first to begin with)

>>150207087
Needs some green thrown in, trust me.

I really don't understand why Tim can't just be Red Robin again.

>>150206798 (OP)
Tim was literally made to be THE Robin, specially after Dick grew up into Nightwing, Tim was meant to be Robin perfected, without all the goofy bullshit Dick was so famous for.
This of course, ultimately meant that eventually, Dick, Jason, and Damian would just take elements that Tim introduced to the mantle so they could be better in their roles.
Sucks for Tim that he was meant to be THE Robin, but got ultimately replaced, I still don't understand those fans who think Tim should be eternally Robin, even Red Robin would be better.

>>150208662
Jason's never taken an element from tim other than his costume, dude's never been robin in any present story since his death.

>>150208675
>Jason's never taken an element from Tim other than this thing that he took
Anon....
>dude's never been robin in any present story since his death.
Where have you been? We've had multiple modern day stories that revisit Jason's time as Robin, Robin and Batman: Jason Todd for example.

>>150206853
We got a solid solo and Young Justice, it's a pretty great run. Dick fans have some dusty but fun 50's books and some 70's backup stories along with Titans. Jason fans have a few good Barr and Davis. Damian has the same story over and over, though supersons was fun and Morrison's Batman run is good. All in all I can't say I'd trade Tim in 89-2004 for the others.

>>150208732
Yes, tim's also taken damian's hood, its not that big a deal? Its annoying but its common. (See venom).

That, really is the one (and robin lives and the dkr prequel). And no external media. And even that just gave him new 52's dick's costume. The only other stuff are flashbacks from him as red hood. And those mostly just make him violent robin, dont really take from tim at all. Titans, i guess, and that one made him into red hood super fast, and also didnt take anything but the costume.

>>150207628
Part of the problem is that no one's actually read any of Jason's tenure as Robin. The other problem is that Jason's major pre-Crisis storyline is part of a greater story that wasn't well-received, and heavily involves a Batman/villainess romance starring a d-lister that very few people care about. Which is kind of a shame because Nocturna genuinely loved and wanted the best for Jason and her conflict with Batman played out alongside a custody battle in their civilian identities, which is a completely unique dynamic. And in the 20 years since Jason came back Batman writers have been too busy introducing new version after new version of Nocturna to actually address her and Jason's relationship.

>>150208766
>That, really is the one (if you ignore these ones too)
Anon...

>>150208662
>I still don't understand those fans who think Tim should be eternally Robin, even Red Robin would be better.
It's usually accompanied by not wanting their to be a Robin after Tim at all, which is reasonable. The whole concept of making Robin a mantle is so Dick could grow as needed, it didn't mean there needed to be a bunch of new Robins after. Jason was meant to be the solution, ended up not being it, so a more permanent solution was attempted, and went well for a long while.

>>150208840
>It's usually accompanied by not wanting their to be a Robin after Tim at all
I mean, sometimes yeah, but no matter what, Damian exists, he's been a thing for a while now, he's THE Robin right now, which just leaves Tim as the "Other Robin", or if you want to be mean, the "Gay Robin".

>>150208858
>right now
Damian can only ever be Robin because the moment you make him not Robin everyone is going to ask why Batman's son isn't his sidekick. The only way to get around it is to either make Damian a villain or to remove him from superheroics completely.

Damian has bratty powerbottom energy.

>>150208891
why'd you have to make it weird

>>150208891
>make Damian a villain
Well, they did try that with 5G.

>>150206835
>the signal goes off
>he races to the internet, knocking mothers with small children down flights of stairs in his frothing desperation to get to the thread and immediately announce he has no idea what he's talking about
any fan of Tim is aware he's had problems since around the time Willingham took over his solo book and a bunch of bad decisions unfolded.

>>150208838
What im saying is that its not that common lol.
>>150208858
Damian's not really THE robin either. He's mostly been abscent from the main batman book, and he really doesnt have any actual "batman and robin" stories with batman. He works with dick, not bruce.

>>150208891
>The only way to get around it is to either make Damian a villain or to remove him from superheroics completely.
He should've stayed dead.

>>150208955
this. a villain or villain-adjacent occasional ally like Talia could also work. as Robin he's just a perpetual narrative problem.

>>150208893
Because making Damian gay would have been easier due to not having to deal with the baggage of a canonically multiyear long heterosexual relationship that was popular with fans of both Tim and Steph.

>>150208968
Damian deos kinda fuck talia and ra's inherently as concepts ngl.

>>150208937
Yeah, that's another problem with Damian. He's built from the ground up to play off Dick's personality and doesn't really work when paired with Bruce. Hell, he works better paired with Tim rather than Bruce.

>>150208936
He does, but he doesnt even have the most? Jason's by far the one in the worst position consistently.

>>150208987
>batman and robin that hate each other
Id buy that book.

Tim really needs an identity distinct enough from Robin.

>>150208969
which doesn't matter that much since they didn't make him gay and all these characters are still in the normal age range for sexual realizations. you have to go past Jason to get to characters who should reasonably have figured themselves out by then.
>>150208988
oh, they have no idea what to do with jason either. he's just cursed by them constantly trying to do something instead of putting him on the back burner for a time.

>>150208969
They're not gonna make Bruce's kid gay.

>>150209001
But tim's also not really been in the backburner since DCYOU. He's the robin in the main batman book rn.

While jason's unable to do anything that isnt repeating dick stuff but he kills now.

>>150208937
Well, he is definitely more of the main Robin than Tim is right now at least.

>>150206798 (OP)
I hate this fucker.

>>150209016
i mean that tim has kind of neutral support or background positions he can occupy in the larger story, but they keep giving jason gimmicks and recycling the morality drama because he's a very notice-me character in universe.

>>150209015
But Superman's kid is fair game apparently.
>>150209016
>tim's also not really been in the backburner since DCYOU. He's the robin in the main batman book rn.
Yeah, but that comes after a period of not being really used anywhere at all.

>>150208988
It's hard to unfuck Jason due to his entire Punisher-esque deal clashing with the Batman status quo.

>>150209031
Unironically yes, Batman is the far more sacred character. They're not gonna try to rock the boat with him too much (or at least not in ways you can't memoryhole easily)

>>150209055
It bothers me that Red Hood fans have repeatedly made clear that a Jason who disagrees with Batman's methodology but doesn't go full Punisher is what they want but DC absolutely refuses to give it to them.

>>150209020
Not really? Damian's not the robin for the main batman book rn. He's the side book robin. That's as unmain as it goes, sorry.
>>150209031
Not really? He had tec, young justice, a solo, and the chip run. I like tim, but it does feel tim fans have this POV that he gets used way less than he actually does.
>>150209055
Not untrue.

>>150209073
That's just angrier dick. Or helena, or steph.

>>150209065
Damian is a massive narrative tumor because he's rooted entirely in a characterization of Talia that no longer exists and as such massively clashes with her presentation pre-Morrison and for the past several years.

>>150209015
Damian is the self-insert of a bald tranny; it makes sense that he'd turn out to be a queer.

>>150209092
Nah, it's Katana with a penis.

>>150209092
to be fair, a lot of heroes are just 'other hero with different attitude', especially if they don't have a signature power.
you could make the argument that more bat-related characters than just jason could be pro more drastic measures taken against criminals and use that to form a sort of counterbalancing association.

>>150206853
Teen Titans 03?
>>150208746
So really the best version of Tim is during the 90s and mid 2000s?

>>150209123
Its more so that they keep redoing dick stuff with jason. Donna, Roy, Kory, Babs, and now helena. He's the one who needs those comparisons' he least. Tim and damian get to have more original dynamics.

And it'd be a bit too sparce if they do that. Without drastically shifting the cast.

>>150209143
Yeah, do love yost's red robin too ngl. Made the best of some weird developments for the character

>>150209143
yes, everyone who enjoys the character thinks this. people also liked red robin, but i don't know that i've ever seen someone say it was strictly better than the pre-IC stuff.

>>150209073
>>150209123
Problem is, any of the Gotham villains worth killing are either too popular to kill or too obscure for anyone to care.

>>150209166
i took from anon's comment about not going full punisher that he doesn't need to actually kill every criminal he sees, but maybe he did. i thought of it as just being more overtly violent and maybe doing a bit of killing here and there. i mean, if tim can get away with nuking the league's bases, surely jason can shoot a mook or two.

>>150209162
I think tim fans can be neatly split in two halves. The half that prefers tim as a teen hero who is robin out of necesseity and where that's the central angle of conflict (think his solo and yj) and the ones who prefer him as the robin who lives for being robin and who is more obsessive/cerebral (think red robin and johns tt). Red Robin is defintely the best take on that later angle so its popular as that.

>>150209166
>>150209178
I think with jason you also have too many competing character fanbases that arent compatible.

>>150209179
That's reasonable. And of course the origin of both of those takes predates the Stephening, Jack's death and all the shit that came after. Like, people who like mini-Batman enough to write fanfic still use the yj-era lore, not the other shit that surrounded RR outside of the few details needed to make vague canon compliance work.

>>150209178
I'm not talking about every criminal, just the real nasty ones.
And shooting mooks isn't really impressive. Especially in Gotham which just seems to have infinite thugs.

>>150209220
The second thing isnt necessarily mini batman, it can be similar but its not necessarily that, and all the bad stuff that happened to tim does feed that take on some level. Red Robin is defintely where it was at its best, but it was also challenged, and you still had his YJ friendships, dick and steph as important connections that help ground him, or where attempting to at least.

>>150206798 (OP)
Tim's in a bad position because neither DC nor the fans actually want to embrace Tim's role among the Bat-Family which distinguishes him from the other Robins, and it's that Tim is arguably self-destructive/suicidal and a major daredevil. He's a freak. Remember, he's the only Robin who WILLINGLY CHOSE TO BE ROBIN despite coming from a normal and stable ordinary life beforehand. Comparisons and foiling was done between him and The Joker for a good reason. There is genuinely something fucked up about Tim Drake.

The Robins kinda need a self-destructive daredevil to round everything out, considering they're all different facets of Batman when you think about it (and by extension, facets of The Shadow). Someone has to be the Houdini in the family.

>Dick Grayson: campy, flamboyant, funny and colorful. The performer.
>Jason Todd: violent, brutal, pragmatic, and scary. The gunslinger.
>Tim Drake: hyper, self-destructive, creepy, (perverse?), and suicidal. The magician.
>Damian Wayne: expert prodigy and spoiled and socially retarded/autistic. The ninja.

If it were up to me, Tim would be the one willing to do shit like set himself on fire, end up in fights against scores of people or death-defying scenarios where he's chained to a missile while drowning and he's got only ten minutes before a bomb in his head goes off. Some real Joseph Joestar shit.

>>150209156
Like what? Cause I’m actually hearing all this potential man/useless character for him and Jason.
>>150209162
>>150209179
>>150209220
>>150209251
So basically what I’m getting is Red Robin works best for Tim, as he still stays as somewhat Robin but also with great story ignoring the crisis event?

>>150206853
>>150206835
People who post like this are Damien fags btw

>>150209332
It doesn't matter because Tim is now the batman that take dick in the ass. That is permanently his role

>>150206798 (OP)
>Mom, I want Dick Grayson
...said no one ever

>>150208858
>>150208891
Now Tim fans know how we feel. Dick Grayson is Robin. There's no need for a Nightwing.

>>150209073
Because that doesn't really exist. What's there to disagree about? This ain't Adam West Batman, the Dark Knight gets into full on beat downs with his villains. The only way you could try to be harder on them is if you permanently injured and/or killed them, which is what going Punisher means.

The only other thing you could do would be to have Jason basically just be Batman but mad at him and not wanting to associate with him anymore, and then spin him off into his own city which is not only a hard sell but just makes him Nightwing in Bludhaven (something that's already been done and ultimately didn't work out because he just wound up back in Gotham anyways.)

>>150206798 (OP)
Great solo run, was the one in the cartoons. Timfags were insufferable for a long LOONNNGGGGG time, but even so they didn't deserve what happened. I'm still gonna laugh about it though.

>>150209178
>>150209244
It still won't work. If Batman has an apprentice go rogue and start killing people, even if it's not very often, he's going to take him out. The only reason Jason has survived as long as he has is because they can just pretend he doesn't exist until he makes a slight appearance then slips back into a state of not existing until the writer wants to drag him out for a quick second and they e gotten away with it for this long because the people who don't think he works get to ignore him 99% of the time and the people who want him are happy he's technically still around. He's like Batman's Ben Reilly.

>>150209332
That's just what most people think Jason is so if they embraced it everyone would just ask why Jason isn't doing it.

>>150209658
> Cute, half naked girl runs away from home and climbs into your bed
So, what happens next?

>>150206886
DiDio wanted artists for OYL to have some synergy between animation and comics, even though TNBA Tim was more like Jason. So they gave Tim the red and black, but Johns came up with the reasoning he picked up the colors to mourn Kon.

>>150207326
2003-2009 was all about Tim Drake stepping on Dick's toes.
>The Teen Titans suddenly stars Tim Drake
>Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, and Beast Boy are now Tim Drake's friends teammates
>Tim Drake has suddenly moved to Bludhaven and claimed it as his city
>Tim Drake has suddenly moved into Wayne Manor and claimed Dick's childhood bedroom as his own
Didio wanted to kill Dick to make Tim into The World's Greatest Robin (TM).

Why do people who say Jason’s character doesn’t work always sound like tryhards?

>>150210475
Jason was also going to pick up the suit as Nightwing, and when people mutinied about DiDio killing Dick we got Bruce Jones writing Brothers in Blood as pretty much a take-that to the idea of Jason being Nightwing as a stupid thing. For some reason he thought turning Jason into a cannibalistic tentacle beast for a bit was necessary.

>>150210475
It wasn't till ~2008 when Morrison's run started and the DickBats plans were laid out that DC stopped glazing Tim so hard. They even worked that tension into Tim's storyline.

>>150210477
There's a reason this place is called /co/mblr, anon. The arguments pretty much retread those of the Jason stans and haters and some rather tired talking points from there. Some of those characters like the one dude who hates Stephanie/shills Tim have been spotted in the wild at least once or twice.
All we'd need is that batshit guy that makes any sane Bette Kane fans look bad yelling in here about how Jason totally tried to rape one of Green Arrow's sidekicks and murdered a school full of teenagers.

>>150207628
>nobody wants to just write or do anything with Jason where he's just Robin and that's all he's intended to be.
Jason is stucks in a basket of crabs; 1) For all purpose and intents, UTRH is now Jason's new origin story for DC and some of his "fans" because it's his most popular story. 2) Under Starlin, his run as Robin become synonym of "Robin has a negative effects on kids and that's wy Batman shouldn't have sidekick." It's a very embarrassing message for Batman, to the point we have now books dedicated to tell us how broken Jason was before even meeting Batman. Effectively completely rewritten the character with UTRH in mind because writting about Jason as he was or as Robin is the last thing DC wants to do with the character. All they care about it over-correcting the past and serve the same soup.

>>150210503
Next thing you know, we'll have a retcon where Jason set up his own life of doom because he caused the Joker to fall into the chemicals, or Willis did so and cursed his whole bloodline.

>>150210475
Tim was wearing Dick's mantle while leading Dick's team and sleeping in Dick's bed but resenting Dick for existing. Plus being jealous of Damian for being Bruce's bio-son. And changing his name to Tim Wayne, just a year after his dad died. What a tool.

>>150209020
The main Robin right now is Dick. He is the one getting books. Damian and Tim are both the side Robin.

>>150210514
Some (not Johns, as faily as he could be) other writer for the TT2003 secret files had Tim mock Dick Grayson's old Discowing outfit as if he'd never seen it before too, as if he didn't even meet Dick in that era. Bad writing, but you can add that to more Tooltime Tim points with him daring to diss the fashions of those before.

>>150206798 (OP)
>>Mom, I want Dick Grayson

No one has ever spoken those words.

>>150210529
Wait, Dick is Robin again? I haven't been following the title. When did that happen?

>>150210546
Main Robin like the one being published the most.
Tim is Robin in Batman
Damian is Robin in Batman and Robin
Jason just got a Robin & Batman: Jason Todd mini
Dick is Robin in World's Finest, B&R Year One, and The Last Halloween. We've been getting more Dick Robin than all the others combined for the last year or so.

>>150209332
All the Robin are in bad position because Batman is a character that can't learn anything and can't be wrong while he is a shit mentor and person in general.
>WILLINGLY CHOSE TO BE ROBIN
I assume you meant "knowingly" since Dick created Robin willingly to get revenge/justice. Damian also went in knowingly but like Jason, it can be said their choice was a bit forced or not much of a choice. Tim is in the same boat as Babs as they are both ascended Bat-stans who reach to Batman instead of the opposite. But their choice is not supposed to represent they're fucked-up people. Batman can't inspire and enable fucked-up people because that's bad press.

>>150210513
>we'll have a retcon where Jason set up his own life of doom
You're joking but that's already the case. "It's his choice" after all.

>>150210618
I see what you're getting at, but I'd disagree on the phrasing.
Dick absolutely chose to be Robin, he asked to join Batman's crusade on crime and he created Robin as his vigilante identity.
>>150210684
Did you read Jason's new Lemire mini? Jason's narration is all about how he knows he's broken inside and is scared of Batman (because criminals are superstitious and cowardly, and Jason is of criminal descent).

>>150210503
If they just kept writing Jason the way Winick did, most people wouldn’t be complaining in the first place.

>>150210697
They all chose to be Robin, but the context greatly vary between them and doesn't absolve Batman of responsability. It's why the focus on Tim being the "willing Robin" was weird to me.
>Lemire
He isn't the first to do it. You had accasional shades of this since Tim was introduced and the first book that phrased it like that was rebirth Rhato. We had another book about what if Robin didn't die that went the same road too just before that. DC just comissionned another fanfic to resume 30 years of victim-blaming in one book that say nothing else in 80+ pages.

>>150210618
>Tim is in the same boat as Babs as they are both ascended Bat-stans who reach to Batman instead of the opposite. But their choice is not supposed to represent they're fucked-up people. Batman can't inspire and enable fucked-up people because that's bad press.
And now you can add Mia Mizuguchi to that boat

Though does she still have the choice in or was it an illusion? She didn’t find the Batcave like Tim. Bruce revealed everything to her and asked a girl who was always going to say yes if she wanted to officially become robin to help him out on a case.

>>150209852
Dick fans who take the position he should’ve never been Nightwing are a super minority of Dick fans. For most people, Nightwing made Dick the coolest.

>>150210778
JM DeMatteis just thought he could ape Return of the Joker and then that clown makeup meme and call it a day.

>>150206798 (OP)
It wouldn’t surprise me if the only people who want Dick Grayson back as Robin are grownass adults who still live at home with their moms.

>>150210705
Except Winick is the reason why Jason is so shit these days.

>>150210854
Those would probably be some of those that didn't like Nightwing and were mad that Jason had to take up the leotard. They existed.
There's a whole alternative scenario where if Dick wasn't allowed to graduate the mantle, Jason would've had to take on a different codename, Moench remembers it being "Nightbird" which seems a bit too oddly similar to Nightwing.

>>150210514
If anything Tim has remarkable restraint around Damian considering the multiple times Damian has tried to kill him or attacked him unprovoked.

>>150210542
Meta writing shouldn't count against a character, it's explicitly authorial voice.

>>150210863
So I’m supposed to blame Bob Kane and Bill Finger instead of the current writers if Batman comics suck?

>>150210778
In modern Batman Jason didn't choose so much as he was recruited. His current origin is a weird mix of the Ma Gunn plotline and Dixon's Nightwing: Year One.
>>150210788
Isn't the Maps stuff non-canonical? It only showed up in those anthology books.

>>150210854
>>150210864
These days it’s probably more people who insist they should keep things like the most popular adaptations ( that they personally like and have nostalgia for )than truly old fans from back in the day. Titans did well with fans back the , so while some people might’ve been upset over making Dick Nightwing, most active readers would consider it a highlight of the comics since it was tied into a major arc.
Meanwhile I see a lot of posters insist Dick should still be Robin because the 03 cartoon was the most popular media he’s been in the last few decades, or something like Lego Batman using Dick

>>150207326
>And you know, he has an origin people like.
>Random kid just happens to be in the circus audience on the night the Graysons fell to their deaths, recognizes Nightwing as Dick from the acrobatic moves he uses, and deduces that Bruce is Batman by extension
Looking back, comics Tim felt a little too perfect in how he got the role. Meanwhile, DCAU Tim was Jason in all but name.

>>150210705
That's naive thinking. 1) Some people will complain about Jasons because he is a polarizing character with dedicated haters. 2) Being a Jaybin fans and a RH fans are two different things and the overlap is thinner than you'd think. That change nothing to what I was talking about, though. DC is not writting Jason to appeal to any of his fan. All the book with Jason right now are written for the stans who want to read about a failure and violent person who create his own hell, justifying and glazing their heroes in comparaison. While more entertaining than most, Winick is very much part of that basket of crabs.

>>150206798 (OP)
>you can't get dick
heheheh

>>150210852
>He just thought
Same result. No need to defends him.

>>150210922
I think Damian should be Bruce's last Robin.
I think Tim should have retired during Rebirth, Son Gohan style, and taken Steph with him.
I think, if DC needs to synergize with movies and cartoons, they should publish more comics set when Dick was Robin. World's Finest, Tales of the Teen Titans, Legends of the Dynamic Duo, etc.
I think trying to hit the classic Robin archetype is what ruined Tim, and both he and Damian need to lean into what makes them unique instead.

>>150210923
It fits in line with boys adventure detective stories that he’s similar to

>>150210920
It's why I said they chose but context vary and matters greatly. In the end Robins are ~12 or 10 yo when they "pursue that career path" so of course focusing on what it their choices or willingness is weird and sus as fuck. Beside, Jason is the less ambiguous case out of the Robin simply because of his social and familial situation when Bruce met and tell him "Hey kid, wanna be Robin?" That's another thing that embarrass DC and why they go so hard on him.

>>150210920
She became officially Robin in Brave and the Bold 2023 and as far as I’m aware it’s canon, but not chronologically accurate… which is further supported by Alfred still being alive. So taking into account the events of Gotham Academy, Damian’s age similar to Maps, and other stuff… the event in BatB 10-11 must have happened at least months to weeks at the very least before Alfred’s death.

Which in hindsight would make a great justification for why she hasn’t made a reappearance since. Having just lost Alfred, Bruce would probably push Mia as far away as possible from crime fighting. Considering that she doesn’t have much experience, barely has access to the Batcave and bare minimum of gadgets because she just joined, she wouldn’t be able to impose herself on Bruce like the rest of the Batfamily.

>>150210947
It’s not naive thinking, it’s the solution. Writing Jason like Winick did would fix most of the problems people complain about.

>>150211225
My main problem with Jason is RH is a characterization that reduce Jason to kill or be killed and to focuses on Batman and his no kill rule which is not interesting (or logical) concept to begin with. What problems would Winick fix for me?

>>150210918
False equivalence, Jason’s troubles are literally because of that arc. Winick never wanted to write a Jason Todd story in the first place.

>>150211329
But Batman is what really matters, Jason is just a plot trigger, the important thing is how this affects Batman, how he reacts. That's it.

>>150211329
>RH is a characterization that reduce Jason to kill or be killed
I don’t see how that’s even a problem. “Kill or be killed” is basically what most fictional characters do in a serious fight.
>and to focuses on Batman and his no kill rule
Just let Jason deal with his own stuff instead of making everything about Batman’s no-kill rule.
>>150211633
How is that a false equivalence? Following your logic, if other writers mess up a character, the blame falls on the original creator.

>>150211827
The blame falls on Winick for creating the problems in the first place.

>>150206798 (OP)
>Everybody wants to be Dick

>>150211843
Blaming Winick for today’s mess makes no sense. He created Red Hood, but he’s not responsible for how DC keeps writing him now.

>>150211827
>I don’t see how that’s even a problem
Because it’s a very basic reduction of who Jason Todd was. This was the guy who said killing his father’s murderer wasn’t worth it, who tried to save his own betrayer, and might not have even killed in the first place. Meanwhile RH reduced that to a generic early 2000s vigilante who kills. It’s something Quesada and Jemas would cook up.

>>150211871
No, it makes perfect sense because he’s the one who wrote the story, the very foundation of Jason’s character after a thirteen year absence. It could have been the character’s Rebirth moment like Hal Jordan, instead Winick decided that Jason’s prior character wasn’t important and ignored it. He more or less admitted it on interview. The man literally had no plan down the road, and what he did write, like Lost Days, was very mediocre and only muddied things further.

>>150206798 (OP)
>Telling Tim you can't get Dick
Brutal

>>150209837
As someone who knows a Young Justice girl, I can assure you there are lots of women who LOVE Dick Grayson.

>>150208891
He could take over Waynetech to stay relavent to the bat family without having to stay as Robin. I think he had a minor role doing that in Kingdom Come, right?

>>150211962
Don't talk prior characterization and Hal Jordan. Post-Crisis Hal was a drunk driving womanizing pedophile. It all got swept under the rug during Rebirth.

>>150212128
And that’s why Rebirth and Secret Origins was a good thing. 80s and 90 GL sucked,.

>>150211962
It's sort of like Geoff Johns with the cheese and fail of his TT03. He set up some problems, other writers made them even worse. Come to think of it, Johns and Winick were basically buddies during then and Winick signed off on Johns making Jason batshit crazy in an adult Robin suit as long as he'd be "bad guy with a lower case b". And that chapter showed he didn't even read Jason's few TT appearances or you could say Superboy-Prime's punch made the Titans remember him as their personal James Gunn Scrappy Doo.

>>150211895
I get what you’re saying, but I don’t really see it as a problem. “Fight or die” is just part of every character.
>This was the guy who said killing his father’s murderer wasn’t worth it, who tried to save his own betrayer, and might not have even killed in the first place.
Also, the same guy who just watched a rapist fall to his death without showing any emotion.

>>150212338
>I get what you’re saying, but I don’t really see it as a problem
Most fans of Winick are know for having shit taste or self awareness.
>Also, the same guy who just watched a rapist fall to his death without showing any emotion.
Except that was done by the writer to show that Jason wasn’t fit to be Robin. And even then it happened because Jason snapped.

>>150212388
>Most fans of Winick are know for having shit taste or self awareness.
Not an argument.
>Except that was done by the writer to show that Jason wasn’t fit to be Robin. And even then it happened because Jason snapped.
Seriously, why do you want Jason to be a Dick clone so badly?

>>150212338
He was in Heaven in Quiver so you could say that bad act was deemed based.

>>150212424
Jason stopped being a Dick clone thanks to the post-Crisis. The mouthbreathers readers with wanted him to stay a Dick clone.

>>150212496
Yeah, and what exactly did they expect? Jason as some perfect little Robin forever?

>>150212542
No, they wanted Dick back and were stupid enough to think Dick was going to give up being Nightwing and put the tights on.

>>150212542
Pre-Crisis Jason could already be kind of cocky and attentionseeking. Post-Crisis Jason just wound up saddled with Jim Starlin who was out to tank the Robin brand however he could.

>From bringing him back to life to bringing him back from incarceration, you've done a lot with Todd. Was he a favorite Batman character of yours before you started writing him?
>Before I didn't have any particular love or interest in the character at all really. I read him just like anybody else, and when he died-well, I lied in one interview, because I thought it made for a better ending: they asked "Did you call in? What did you call in for?" and I said I called in for him to live. But that's a lie, I wasn't even one of the people who called in, I think I actually bought it as a trade when it was done. So, it wasn't that I had a burning desire to bring Jason Todd back. It was more about-when Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee did "Hush," and they revealed that Hush was Jason Todd, I thought it was just a great, great idea. It gave the story someplace to go, it was terrific, I was excited about it-and then it turned out to be Clayface. And I felt like, aww. But you know what, I still say it’s a great story. So when it got to be my turn, I wanted to pursue that story I thought about when they first did the reveal its Jason Todd. Just when I get the idea that, you know, Hush is Jason Todd, I'm like oh god, it’s great! [Batman's] greatest failure has come back from the grave! With everything he's ever trained him to do being used against him! It's terrific, its an opera, I love it. That was really the suggestion that inspired me to make that story. And since then I spent a couple of years doing the "Under the Hood" arc, and then we did the [animated "Under the Hood"] movie, which was fun too. And here we are again. I like it. I like him. And I'm quite pleased by how many readers have taken to him in an odd way.
Speaks volumes about the current state of Jason Todd’s character ever since UTRH dropped.

>>150210514
Tim NEVER resented dick for existing what? Tim is the biggest fan of dick in existence.

>>150211715
>please understand Batman is written like a poochie
Doesn't answer my question. I already know RH is not a concept meant for Jason fans.
>>150211827
>I don’t see the problem
The answer is in what you replied to. I find it boring and reductive.
>Jason would do stuff
Such as?

>>150212725
Again, why do you want Jason to be a Dick clone?

>>150210852
>Shitting on JMDematteis
Jason fans are odd ngl.

>>150212725
The fact Jason's body was missing after Hush did at least provide a good lead-in for someone to do something with that. Unfortunately it had to be Winick.

>>150212776
Robin Lives! destroyed the goodwill it garnered in the last issue, insinuating Jason getting child murdered was a good thing.

>>150210475
>Teen titans was starring all of young justice, not just tim
>yes that goes with the titans
>bludhaven was stupid but it had less to do with wanting to make tim into dick, batgirl was also in bludhaven. It was about getting "solo batman" back.
>yes becuase they wanted to make Robin bruce's adopted son again, they also did this with jason
Didio wanted robin to be batman jr, he didnt care who it was. He also wanted to make jason nightwing becuase he saw them as interchanchable.
>>150210477
Because he only has one good comic anon.
>>150210498
Tumblr ADORES jason.

>>150212802
>>150212496
Cocksucker.

>>150212806
DeMatteis needed to get back some of his Dr. Fate brand weirdness, like having Jason's dead crazy mom whispering in his head as intrusive thoughts and preying on his innate mazacon nature.

>>150212338
>“Fight or die” is just part of every character.
Fight or die is never an issue unless you have bat-autism. It's why it's not worst being focused on or a good theme unless you want to be a moral absolutist about it.
>>150212388
>that Jason wasn’t fit to be Robin.
That Robin wasn't fit for a kid. It's everyone after Starlin who went on damage control to shift the blame away from Batman.

>>150212839
Meant for
>>150212770

>>150212745
There are examples literally posted in this thread. You replied to a reply to one of them.

>>150212764
>Such as?
Everything Batman can do and more.

>>150212861
It's wild that for Wolfman being such a hater himself and crap writer that he still wrote Jason decently in the NTT issues he appeared. Then he joined in on the blaming when he had to create Tim.

>>150212806
I am talking JMD as a writer, its fine to not like his book, but he's one of the best writers in comics. And again, its not even that bad, its too iterative sure.

>>150212911
Jason's NTTv2 run was written immediately post-crisis. Starlin hadn't decided to make him a jerk yet.

>>150212888
Yes, that doesnt show tim hated dick what. Did you forget the issue where dick stopped tim from ressurecing his loved ones as tim collapsed into his hug?

>>150212861
>That Robin wasn't fit for a kid.
Except Jason was an excellent Robin until Starlin decided he wasn’t so he could get rid of him.
>It's everyone after Starlin who went on damage control to shift the blame away from Batman.
>>150212911
>Then he joined in on the blaming when he had to create Tim.
Bruce saying stupid shit is okay because he’s mourning. But when it’s Dick or Babs or fucking Cass, it’s not. And it’s Winick’s fault that never got cleared up, meaning they got away with victim blaming, or worse, proved the victim blaming was justified.

>>150212776
He should have wrote a good story then. Bruce getting with his therapist and Jason being the character who speak the less in a book when he is supposed to be the problem/victim is not a solid concept.

>>150212868
>>150212999
Why do you love sucking cock?

>>150212942
Look, even the greats fumble. I like his JLI work. But RL’s ending was dogshit and DeMatteis was an idiot for thinking ending it like that knowing well he wasn’t going to get another issue to finish his original story.

>>150212963
>AU where silly Tim thinks DNA in the pits will work
>He creates ungodly homunculi out of Lazarus slime
>This is fine

>>150212963
>tumblr
You have to go back.
Also, stop projecting. Resenting and hating are wildly different.

>>150213037
Turn your monitor on.

>>150213045
I dont have every comic at hand and other sites save worse.
He just didnt resent dick, he resented damian 100 percent. But he liked dick. He always had. Its his central premise as a character.

He did resent dick at the start of beyond for not keeping his as robin, sure.

Imagine being a Dickfag manchild and seething because an inner city kid with no family became the next Robin. They have definitely shit their pants if they ever watched Batman Beyond.

>>150212802
Jason Todd coming back was inevitable. Hal Jordan was dead for a decade, Barry Allen was dead for two and a half decades and Jason Todd was dead for a decade and a half. At that time, DC was getting the shit kicked out of them by Marvel. Jason coming back could have been good, but it just had to be done by the most mediocre guy on the team which is depressing.

>>150213136
Supposedly there was brief consideration of making the third Robin a black boy but they had to stick to the white image as well as make him rich and opposite "gutter trash hothead Jason" for minorities wouldn't do in the Bat-office.

>>150213234
ToCA in the Cass threads mentioned hearing from someone that there was a pitch at DC for Jason to have been secretly resurrected under Ras and working for him, that got rejected. Must have still been under the O'Neil regime.
It's funny when we had something like that hinted in Young Justice and when the League of Assassins wind up in his lore anyway.

>>150212999
Yes but the angle was "Robin is not a good outlet for a kid" not "Jason was a bad Robin" until damage control kicked in. I'm not saying Starlin had good intents or that he would have focused on it after he had got what he wanted. He was just a salty nerd who was "muh batman is not for children", but his angle was accidentaly way more nuanced and human than bad seed or assigned RH at birth.
>excellent Robin
What is an excellent Robin? A child soldier that worship Batman? A sociopathic child that see fucked up things and is not supposed to be affected by it? A child soldier that doesn't dies on the field? If so, how many of them pass? What does that say about Batman? Nothing good.

>>150213261
It wouldn’t have happened under Denny, Denny said he was fine with it, but it just couldn’t happen under his editorial.

>>150213301
Probably why it was rejected.

>>150213299
>but his angle was accidentaly way more nuanced and human than bad seed or assigned RH at birth.
Yes, but that happened by complete accident. Years later we know now that Batman was fucked it for not being the father Jason needed.
>What is an excellent Robin? A child soldier that worship Batman? A sociopathic child that see fucked up things and is not supposed to be affected by it? A child soldier that doesn't dies on the field? If so, how many of them pass? What does that say about Batman? Nothing good.
What hell are you talking about? This is fucking comic books about men in colorful tights fighting crime.

It’s stories like UTRH that appreciate Denny O’Neil more.

>>150206846
This is so incredibly cringe.

>>150206798 (OP)
He used to be good…

He was my favorite to play as in the Arkham City. Shame what happened to him

DC really just shit on him completely.

>>150212125
Damian doesn't appear in Kingdom Come. Ibn al Xu'ffasch is the son of Batman and Talia in KC, and he's the head of the League of Assassins.

>>150213360
>accident
So?
>we know now
We know canon is lose and a concept at DC.
>This is fucking comic books about men in colorful tights fighting crime.
Tell that to DC. It's not my fault if they're trying to be "deeper" than what they are or act like they know right from wrong.

>>150209903
He cries like a bitch without tapping dat.

>>150214291
>doesn't stick his dick in crazy
>doesn't stick his dick in Russian crazy
Bruce needs to take lessons from Tim on how to dodge a bullet.

>>150210495
This really encapsulates what's wrong with Tim. People just want to see Dick and Bruce. Everyone else is extra.

If people want Nightwing so badly they should let Jason be Nightwing and he can run Bludhaven

>>150210854
I'm married, Anon.

>>150215614
Dick Grayson being a full grown adult sidekick is demeaning to Dick and also too homoerotic. You'd have to freeze his age as a kid.

>>150215614
That's not really true given how uber popular all the other batfamily characters are? The moment you try to scope it down people hate it, and you get no sales bump. The only people who say that dont buy comics.

>>150210854
Nah they just tend to be secondaries who wouldnt actually read any dick as robin story lol.

>>150215750
Which would be more unsettling: adult Dick wearing his classic Robin costume but having body hair or adult Dick wearing his classic Robin costume but having laser removed all the hair off his body?

>>150215750
>and also too homoerotic
And that makes it even better!!!

>>150215888
Depends on the time period that the story takes place

>>150214620
people always miss the context that Ariana was absolutely nuts by then and was trying to baby trap him.

>>150213045
google image search is fucked, all you get is tumblr or pinterest links to tumblr, if not webp.

>>150216176
At this point I assume that 90% of the people arguing about Tim haven't actually read any of his solo material and 90% of that hasn't read any Tim material at all.

>>150215614
>People just want to see Dick and Bruce.
Yeah, and those people are as old as Mark Waid.

>>150215750
I don't think the people who want Bruce and Dick are asking for Dick to be an adult sidekick. As you said, that's weird. But Batman and Nightwing, an adult man and his adult son fighting crime together, will always be more popular than Batman and Dick's legacy characters.

>>150217108
>But Batman and Nightwing, an adult man and his adult son fighting crime together, will always be more popular than Batman and Dick's legacy characters.
Then why don't they do it?

>>150217108
You say that as if the robins arent all hugely popular characters.

>>150212770
> Why do you want Jason to be in character instead of a Hush clone?

>>150213236
Reminds me of when my job took away Christmas Eve as a company holiday and replaced it with MLK Day because YOU NEED TO CARE ABOUT BLACKS

>>150213236
Little did we know that Jason Todd would be the black guy of the Batfam.

>>150213299
> What is an excellent Robin? A child soldier that worship Batman? A sociopathic child that see fucked up things and is not supposed to be affected by it? A child soldier that doesn't dies on the field? If so, how many of them pass? What does that say about Batman? Nothing good.
See, this is why it's a mistake to replace Dick as Robin (a hero identity HE CREATED for HIMSELF by the way, I feel like everyone takes advantage of these OC losers to act like it's always just up for grabs when it's his) there's no other way to do it. When Dick is Robin it's something Batman never really wanted or planned on doing but then he came face to face with a kid who was going through basically the same origin story as him, who he tried to help out and quickly realized was going to get himself killed or into trouble if he didn't fully take him under his wing and then because of his intellectual, charm, and savant/prodigy skills as a worldclass aerialist he just worked and made it happen, and is a bright enough ray of sunshine and smart aleck that he balances Batman out and becomes his equal. A true dynamic duo.

Once you add in literally any other Robin it turns into: "DURR MUH CHILD SOLDIER, THIS IS ABUSE. HOW DARK AND TWISTED. BATMAN IS FAILURE"

It. Does. Not. Work.

Dick Grayson is Robin, Robin is Batman's sidekick.

>>150214291
I knew it would be that, but had to hurt myself anyways.

>>150217129
They do. Didn't you see the sales rankings for the Batman v Nightwing issue of Zdarsky's Gotham War? The issues that Batman featured in Taylor's Fallen Grayson?

>> What is an excellent Robin? A child soldier that worship Batman? A sociopathic child that see fucked up things and is not supposed to be affected by it? A child soldier that doesn't dies on the field? If so, how many of them pass? What does that say about Batman? Nothing good.
>See, this is why it's a mistake to replace Dick as Robin (a hero identity HE CREATED for HIMSELF by the way, I feel like everyone takes advantage of these OC losers to act like it's always just up for grabs when it's his) there's no other way to do it. When Dick is Robin it's something Batman never really wanted or planned on doing but then he came face to face with a kid who was going through basically the same origin story as him, who he tried to help out and quickly realized was going to get himself killed or into trouble if he didn't fully take him under his wing and then because of his intellectual, charm, and savant/prodigy skills as a worldclass aerialist he just worked and made it happen, and is a bright enough ray of sunshine and smart aleck that he balances Batman out and becomes his equal. A true dynamic duo.
>Once you add in literally any other Robin it turns into: "DURR MUH CHILD SOLDIER, THIS IS ABUSE. HOW DARK AND TWISTED. BATMAN IS FAILURE"
>It. Does. Not. Work.
>Dick Grayson is Robin, Robin is Batman's sidekick.

>>150215750
I disagree. Though, I see no reason why Dick couldn't be around 17-21. Bruce's age is permanently stuck at: "Don't think about it" even though he's seen all of his sidekicks then from teens into almost 30 year olds in consecutive order. Dick can just be vaguely younger, the kid brother who's everyone's favorite.

>>150215857
I would buy comics if they were about Bruce, Dick, Alfred, and Barbara. I'm not going to buy slop.

>>150216176
> She wants it bad
> Oh my gosh, no! Think of the feminists!

>>150216931
Mark Waid was older than I am now when I was born

>>150217733
>I would buy comics if they were about Bruce, Dick, Alfred, and Barbara. I'm not going to buy slop.

>>150217129
They're hacks and afraid to take away Nightwing. People would their a fit, but they would get over it.

>>150217706
I believe you screwed something up while putting that together

>>150217771
More like they'd prove everyone write: Dick is forever in Bruce's shadow and will never be his equal.

>>150217706
>>150217741
>>150217762
He must be pretty based if he makes you seethe that much. Wait wrote Birthright, which means he's that author you hate just because he's conservative, right? I'll take it.

>Mark Waid
>conservative

>>150217790
He wasn't created to be a solo hero, he was created to be Batman's sidekick. The only reason he branched off is because the writers were being edgy and crying about Batman being a serious mature loner and Robin making him "too kiddy" but he was too popular a character to just get rid of so they threw him on the Totans and teamed him up with Batgirl in Batman Family. Then when they realized he was doing numbers they decided to just have him be a main title character and give Batman some rando as a sidekick.

Dick doesn't need to hold down his own title to prove himself, not only has he done so multiple times over, but hes what made the story in the first place. Batman didn't even have his own book until they introduced Robin, then it catapulted him to stardom.

Robin didn't become cool until they actually put an effort into it with Tim Drake's 1993 solo.

>>150217719
DC really has never had any problem with Bruce being in his late 30s, 40s. He's more often that than young.

>>150217858
Cool. He's still boring character and I wouldn't read anything with him mainlining after you retards fooled me into buying the Nightwing Dixon solo. The character did peak with NTT and that makes me sick because NTT isn't even that good.

The Golden Trio, can't be beat.

>>150217909
Original Teen Titans is better then New Teen Titans.

>>150217671
This has nothing to do with how many Robin exist. The moment Batman tries to takes himself too seriously, Robin becomes a child soldier and all these problems arise. Especially when you start making judgements about good and bad (child) soldiers. Batman could have 47 Robins and all these problems would disappears if the story/universe was campy as it used to be back when Dick was Robin. It's a matters of tone and a complete lack of self-awareness.

>>150217790
Is that really a problem? It's The Batman. He's never going to stop being a part of The Batman franchise.

>>150218620
Yes it is, because Dickheads want Dick to surpass Bruce.

>>150218656
Not as much as Timfags want Tim to.

>>150217909
The Nightwing collections are good. It's honestly funny reading them in collected order, because while Dixon is doing this slow burn romantic tension between Nightwing and Oracle, Devin Grayson comes in with a schlocky fake marriage annual and the one night stand with Huntress with Babs just being bitter about it all.

>>150219056
Anon, I own the first four and they're not good. It is literally Dixon on autopilot.

>>150217751
anon she's fucking nuts. Tim wasn't desperate for women if he wanted.

>>150218620
Kenny's gotta work on that stutter.

>>150219056
The only good bad guy they had gets his head twisted and becomes a joke character.

>>150217664
Some comblr sorts already want him to be black or Latino, even knowing the current DC optics wouldn't be good for that. They usually want Tim to be Asian too.

>>150215888
He could wear Leggs like Burt Ward did

>>150206798 (OP)
bump

He was the most "Robin" Robin. It's a shame they ruined him.

>>150206846
Soul.

>>150217553
>”In character” but Starlin doesn’t count because I don’t like his run.
Please stop playing word games and just answer the question.

>>150224438
Being the most Robin Robin isn't a good thing, even the original Earth 2 one tried to move away from Robin-ness

>>150224548
Jason was the only interesting about Starlin's run and that was because he wasn't Dick. Being interesting (the opposite of what Dick is) is what made him so unpopular in the first place.

>>150224648
What if we lived in the timeline where Alan Grant got to make Lonnie the third Robin?

>>150224837
Everyone would have hated him more than Jason because the premise of Tim was that he was a good kid who listened to Batman and did what he was told, but he could be cool when had permission. Lonnie on the other hand was a high school punk who read books about classism and other stuff most kids in the late 80s would see as commie nonsense.

>>150223629
For what reason?

>>150206798 (OP)
>Mom, I want Dick-
Fag

>>150227917
But Jason nuked Bludhaven, only because he was very very very evil.

>>150227975
What are you talking about?
The Society nuked Bludhaven. It was Deathstroke, the Brotherhood of Evil, and Chemo.
Then Captain Atom nuked it again during Battle for Bludhaven.

>>150228838
It's a meme based off one really deranged Jason hater's interpretation of UTRH when Bludhaven blows.