Thread 150327362

The post that saved /co/

>>150327362 (OP)
Of course a cartoon fag wouldn't understand a comic book.

>>150327362 (OP)
>killing millions le bad
>unless you're president Truman and want to nuke Japan

>>150327362 (OP)
People really like to gloss over the fact the Rorschach was committing suicide by blue dong because he was a fucking coward.

>>150327362 (OP)
Alan Moore is mad that people who dont share his political anarchy/communist views identify with rorschach. He is not saying rorschach is wrong he is just mad that YOU like him and he makes statements like "lol he stinky" to piss YOU off because he feels he is actually insulting YOU for identifying with him. In the actual in universe storyline the press is the hero because they have rorschachs journal he was writing in that we were reading over the couse of the story and the idea is they will publish it and the truth will overpower the squid alien narrative over time. If anything the story is about how a free press over powers all the ideologies being presented.

>>150327432
You guys don't even try with the bait

>>150327432
up until a few years ago it was considered common wisdom that dropping the nukes was 100% unnecesary and japan was ready to surrender out of fear of a sovier invasion, their only caviat being shielding the emperor from persecution

I say up until a few years ago because they recently removed this information from all museums and amerimutts eat up propaganda like no other nation.

>>150327432
Killed less than the firebombing of Tokyo thoughbeit

>>150327466
Rorschach was not a coward, his life was shit and his mind was broken. He was in quiet anguish for most of the comic, but his coping mechanism of punishing evil kept him alive. When Ozymandias made it so that wouldn't work anymore, he had nothing left to live for.

Alan Moore looks like a pretty stinky guy himself desu

>>150327531
Moore thinks that people that see themselves in a character like this >>150327599 are either fucked up or being heckin' edgy. Obviously, not all Rorschach fans are fucked up, so Moore thinks they're being little queers that annoy people. He had unpleasant experiences at conventions that sparked his disdain toward adult comic fans forever.

>>150327362 (OP)
Alan Moore is a shit writer and a shit person.

>>150327552
Japan surrendered from a mix of the two afaik, plus the Soviets (while the mobilization of the armies into Manchuria was insanely impressive) likely would not have the resources to invade japan in the near future, but it was a threat.

Idk i read some Nukefag wrote about Japan was actually way more rational than some muh manchuria says because getting hundreds of thousands of your people killed is bad and the militarist death cult part was represented a much smaller presence in the politics of japan than you'd think or something like that.

>>150327641
And on top of that he is into anarchy and communism, so for all these reasons he shouldnt be listened to. The Watchmen story itself is fine. If I was Stan Lee for example I would probably hate all the marvel comics fans for being ugly fat fucks, having to endure the cons takes a lot.

>>150327657
He's a good writer and a regular guy, though a tad eccentric and now a bit senile.
>>150327694
Going by his comics and the interviews he's given, he seems like he'd actually be pretty interesting to talk to.

>>150327661
1) soviet invasion of hokkaido, they already lost manchuria by this point
2) no, they were ready to surrender, we know this because they were sending telegrams to the japanese consul in the USSR (who was only allowed to recieve them because they were being spied on) begging him to get stalin to mediate peace between the us and japan
this was all a massive shitshow with the responsible parties in japanese government taking 2 week long breaks betweeen meetings and their autistic insistence on denying requests of unconditional surrender because "muh emperor" but it was also american hubris in being unable to read "we surrender with the sole condition of having the emperor not be persecuted" as close enough to an unconditional surrender, though like i said japan was for a long time coping that thte ussr would mediate

>>150327694
>If I was Stan Lee for example I would probably hate all the marvel comics fans for being ugly fat fucks
I actually think this is one of the reasons for the decline of modern media. Creators have come to hate their audiences and you can feel that contempt in their stories.

>>150327552
>japan was ready to surrender out of fear of a sovier invasion
What revisionism slop did you read wtf lmao
>amerimutts eat up propaganda like no other nation
Oh you are one of THOSE unaware fags, a comical parody of a “human”

>>150327776
Did you even read the Magic intercepts? The Japanese ambassador to the soviet's was telling his government that the soviet's has no intent to mediate and that they had assurances from the OSS that they could keep the emperor even with unconditional surrender.

>>150327860
>>japan was ready to surrender out of fear of a sovier invasion
>What revisionism slop did you read wtf lmao
up until a few years ago this was mainstream thought and was on public displays in ww2 museums across the US, but americans are dumb apes and align their views with their regime incredibly fast, so go on, tell us what your handlers are feeding you now
>>150327871
yes he was telling them the soviets have no intention and they kept sending messages back telling him to ask again because they were incompetent and coping

>>150327432
Japan was murdering the same amount of people both nukes did, every month of the war

Here's how the Law of War works, what normally could be considered a war crime is permitted if it is necessary to stop an ongoing war crime
And there is no worse war crime than a war of aggression

Tokyo got firebombed because Japan refused to case aggression when asked, making it necessary
First nuke was dropped because Japan refused to case aggression after the firebombing, making it necessary
Second nuke was dropped because it was still necessary after the first nuke
And even then Japan has nearly stopped its Emperor from giving up

Axis countries brought everything upon themselves

>>150327552
>>150327909
How has Japanese war cabinet voted after the nukes?
Why did they tried to coup the Emperor after the nukes?

>>150327552
>Japan was trying to surrender but we wouldn't let them!
The reality is actually Japan was not interested in unconditional surrender, namely the military that actually controlled the nation. They were slow to respond to Hiroshima because of the complete cutoff of communication and unconfirmed reports of what happened. There was also disbelief. Nagasaki proved Hiroshima really happened and at that point unconditional surrender was the only option for them.
The only thing that has come to light since the war is that Japan was in really bad shape internally and an amphibious assault on the main island likely would not have resulted in the huge losses of American lives that were predicted, but we couldn't know that for sure during the war.

>>150327547
What bait?
It's a perfect response to the horribly reductive and inaccurate reading of the comic posted by the twatterfag.

>>150327909
So they were ready to surrender, but only in their specific terms that included them keeping manchuria and korea and avoiding war crime trials. Doesn't really sound like they were ready to surrender, especially we know they were pulling veteran units out of the mainland to prepare for an invasion of the main islands.

>>150327599
He could have waited it out with Dan And Laurie, gone back to civilization, and exposed the conspiracy. Instead he was running into the fucking tundra right off the bat. He was commiting suicide. He was a fucking coward.

>>150328014
Manhattan would be able to tell what he was going to do and he was on Ozy's side

>>150327432
>>150327552
Where does your bot farm asses source that millions died in the nukings?

>>150328014
He's wanted for murder and escaping prison. Nobody likes him, nobody wants him except authorities. He has no resources, no allies, save perhaps a tabloid rag. Ozymandias could easily just find him.
Basically, the entire world is against him and his raison d'etre has been taken away.
>>150328044
Not likely.

>>150327362 (OP)
>New Yorkers
>innocent
>people

>>150327774
have you read his short story collection "Illuminations"? it's shit. maybe one story is all right (the titular one) and one had interesting premise (hypothetical lizard). the rest are either dull, predictable or just a hate-rant (thunderman).

his short stories suck. myabe he's a reverse stephen king.

>>150328044
Common misconceptions.

Firstly Manhattan isn't on Ozy's side, he makes that clear before leaving him and the world to their fate, along with possibly wanting to just give Walter a quick death over a slow suicide or assassination he was against further destabilization and paranoia after all the present deaths because Laurie's chaos theory existence convinced him human life no matter how reprehensible in its conduct can be precious if it later leads to something beautiful...he can put his dick in, that part's important. Anyway let that be a lesson the next time you give a physics bending misanthrope a lecture about saving people.

Also Manhattan knew what Walter was doing at the moment because Manhattan was there at the moment, Jon isn't aware of anything he isn't present to experience. Even if he could speculate he would have no idea what Dan and Laurie's intentions were after leaving her mother's retirement home, had Walter quietly joined them undercover he would be just as safe...

Which is not very, because especially after the reconstruction effort allowed him to put in place more surveillance and puppets Veidt would be watching, which goes back to the eventual assassinations if they step out of line.

>>150328397
I've only read his comics, which are mostly pretty great. I'll probably never touch his prose because that's not the craft he developed for decades. I don't expect him to be good at short stories.

>>150328453
>I'll probably never touch his prose because that's not the craft he developed for decades
While not prose, the man is not short on words.

>>150328560
It's still a very different discipline.

>>150328044
No one outside of Laurie and Ozzy understand that Manhatten is perceiving time the way he is (and it isn't even clear that Ozy completely knows, he just understands that Tachyons fuck with his sensory abilities.) Rorschach doesn't know that Manhatten would figure him out.

>>150328221
The entire world was already against him. He already had no allies and no resources. He was already wanted for murder.

>>150327432
Rorschach had no inference in that anyways and action speak louder than words.

>>150328450
Good lord, thank you. You're the one poster I've seen who actually understand how Manhattan's powers work.

>>150327552
>up until a few years ago it was considered common wisdom that dropping the nukes was 100% unnecesary

>>150328645
I think the point anon is making is that earlier in the series he calls Truman a hero in his monolog, if I recall correctly.

>>150328673
Yes, I'm aware that's his point.

>>150327362 (OP)
Did he miss the part at the end when stinky man's journal made it to the press?

>>150328680
Then why are you arguing a separate, dumber point?

>>150328712
Because the other anon should be aware by now of how the right and the left think and why its not worth bringing le truman up.

>>150328736
No, you fucking idiot. The point is that Rorschach thinks that one powerful man killing a shitload of noncombatant civilians with a weapon of mass destruction "for peace" is a hero, while another doing the exact same thing is a villain. The point is that Rorschach is a fucking hypocrite, it doesn't have anything to do with /pol/ shit.

>>150328761
This is a thread discussing the fact that the character is liked by many and why.
> it doesn't have anything to do with /pol/ shit.
You're aware Truman was literally a president of the US right?

>>150328806
Holy shit, how are you this bad at reading?

>>150328822
What is it that I didn't get?

>>150328866
When did I say I was pretending? I asked what is it that I didn't get, can't you answer that?

>>150328761
False equivalency. A bombing used to end an ongoing war early is not the same as a bombing used to hopefully, maybe preemptively end a hypothetical war (assuming absolute thing goes wrong) that might possibly happen eventually. That's before you even factor in the fact that there's nothing ethically wrong about choosing your family and neighbors over someone else's family and neighbors if you know somebody has to die.

>>150328641
>The entire world was already against him.
Not really. He still had the downtrodden, and he still had his secret identity. He had Dan as an ally. He didn't need resources for what he was going before.
He didn't have the prison escape charge.

>>150328876
That works for us because we're not pants-on-head retarded absolutists like Rorschach is. I'm not saying anything about the objective morality of either situation, I'm saying that Rorschach's subjective morality makes him a fucking hypocrite.
>>150328875
I literally already explained it to you, learn to read.

>>150328761
Something I find amusing is some people try to defend it by saying Truman had permission or public "awareness", because "public support" is a highly debatable claim. The thing is the Comedian conveys to Moloch the reason he is in such dismay is because he knows if the politicians learned what Veidt was able and willing to do they'd naturally approve of disarming the rest of world with such a false flag as long as they were aware to take advantage, Veidt just didn't bother because he didn't need them and to prevent them being opportunists.

Going back to the public awareness thing, it's still shot down by the fact that when Laurie brings up the accusations against the Comedian being public knowledge and not argued by him or his representatives Rorschach just dismisses them as mere lapses compared to his war service.

None of this means Rorschach is a "bad" person, but fans need to accept he is a depiction of a biased person who asserts his preferences just so happen to be objective and everyone else is just unenlightened.

>>150328917
>I literally already explained it to you, learn to read.
You seem to be too retarded or think that this is the first time the character has been discussed and le truman point has never been brought up until today.
Let me explain, Rorschach is a character liked by people generally on the right and disliked by people generally on the left. You can't avoid this if you want to discuss whether the character is liked or not. Not to mention that if you literally bring up a US president you basically are discussing politics, whether you like it or not.
If you understand these things, you have to address the fact that the right and the left have different preferences.
Sure, if you want to get technical, Rorschach is an hypocrite for being against one thing and in favor of the other. But the one he was in favor with had nothing to do with him and the one he was against, we see in the actual comic he tries to stop. The right prefers actions over words, so this makes this preferable, even if technically not ideologically sound.
The left prefers cute words over actions so the fact that he approved Truman invalidates the lives he tried to save, which is the point the original pic tries to convey.
Whichever side you agree, if any, you have to keep in mind these are the sides you're arguing for/against.

>>150328618
Didn't he ask him to solve the murder at the start of the story?

>>150328450
From Rorschach's perspective, Manhattan was on Ozy's side.
Jon would experience Ozy being exposed and it would be a matter of adding 2 to 2 when it comes to figuring out that Rorschach was behind it.
Rorschach wasn't in the best state of mind and could be partially wrong about how Jon works, but from his perspective it didn't matter it he tried to be quiet or marched out loudly, Manhattan would have known either way.
He took a public stand in the situation his only alternative was being taken down quietly anyway

>>150328876
this Alan Moore is unbelievably retarded, and it speaks volumes on how shit western comics are that he's considered one of the greats

>>150329012
Imagine typing up all of this shit when you could have just said
>I am a /pol/ brained retard with zero reading comprehension

>>150329021
He's better than manga writers too.

>>150329018
>Jon would experience Ozy being exposed and it would be a matter of adding 2 to 2 when it comes to figuring out that Rorschach was behind it.
Why would he experience that? By the time he would have been exposed John would already have fucked off of the planet. He doesn't know everything, he is just experiencing his own time nonlinearly.

>>150329121
>can't read
>accuses others for not having reading comprehension

>>150328917
>I'm not saying anything about the objective morality of either situation, I'm saying that Rorschach's subjective morality makes him a fucking hypocrite
It doesn't, you just don't understand objective morality and this you have a gotcha.
Japan was an aggressor refusing to stop its aggression. All moral responsibility for civilian loss from nukes is on it.

Objectivists recognize the difference between killing in justified self defense and murder. They also recognize the difference between a leader with a mandate putting an end of aggression in a way that the aggressor made necessary and a self-appointed egomaniac rationalizing his own vanity project (that the history has proven as unnecessary to end the Cold War)

>>150329012
>The right prefers actions over words

>>150329144
>By the time he would have been exposed John would already have fucked off of the planet.
Rorschach didn't know Manhattan was going to leave the planet

>>150329173
>watchman world works the same as the real world
It doesnt. Trying to say
>well it worked out in real life
Doesnt work in a fictional world where the cold war is much hotter.

>>150329206
He also doesn't know how he experiences time, and has no reason to think that he can somehow sense whether or not he's lying.

>>150329307
>Cold War is much hotter
I am aware that Moore gave Soviet Union plot armor and, like a typical Western Soviet sympathizer, believed that only nationalists would ever oppose commies.

And if Moore intentionally wants us to believe that it is hypocritical to agree with Truman but oppose Ozy, it is a valid point that his contrived scenario was not real life of CW. Moore didn't reference Doomsday Clock just to say "it is a fiction, bro", he was doing his commentary on Civil War.

Death of the author. The only reason we believe there was no other way out of the CW is because of the account of dysfunctional people (like Manhattan, who only was thinking about helping mankind during the last 45 minutes of the story) or an egomaniac who wanted to believe in that being a case.

Even IF there was no other way out, Rorschach was right because he was aware that this immoral act wasn't going to produce a lasting result. The Doomsday Clock was just moved back for 5 minutes anyway. Meanwhile, Truman produced tangible results.

>>150328895
>He still had the downtrodden
No one seemed to actually like Rorscach, definitely not enough to stick up for him, even in his own neighborhood. The police consider him a nuissance and the average people on the street are scared shitless of him or think he's a smelly weirdo.
Dan chose sex and comfort over fighting. He wasn't gonna help. At best he'd help cover for him a bit. But Rorschach wanted the truth to be known.

>>150329012
Rorschach has been a well loved character by comic readers for decades when they were largely left by default because the right would call you a faggot manchild for reading comics.

>>150330480
>Dan chose sex and comfort over fighting
Dan and Laurie both fought and lost.

>>150327552
The Japanese weren't ready to surrender, they tried to coup the Emperor even with the Atomic Bombs. How do you think things would go without them?

>>150330404
What about the parts with Nixon?
And Rorschach wanted to punish Ozymandias and reveal the plot. He didn't give a fuck about what resulted from that, which would have probably been catastrophic if he somehow convinced the right people.

>>150330547
True, but they didn't continue fighting. Rorschach was going to if he could.

>>150327362 (OP)
Is this some engagement farming bot? Why is someone so dedicated to spamming these reductive takes? It's like these people and OP only read a wiki summary and some memes and then make the same complaint like clockwork every month.

>>150328359
On 9/11 bro?

>>150328221
>Not likely.
100% likely. Ozy stopped using the Tachyons to prevent Manhattan from seeing the future, because Ozy finished his plan. Manhattan could see wherever Rorschach was and stop him.

>>150328450
>Manhattan stopping Rorschach from further exposing Ozy's plan
>not on Ozy's side
Maybe not ethically or completely, but functionally Manhattan is on Ozy's side by removing Rorschach from existence. That's directly aiding Ozy and his plan.
Doesn't matter how Manhattan's powers work, because that's irrelevant to Manhattan's actions.

>>150331051
There are two types of Moore spammers: the ones that hate him and spam quotes and shitpost criticisms (like this one), and the ones that pretend to agree with him and spam quotes to rile up /co/, /tv/, or other boards.
Moore is a scapegoat and a punching bag to butthurt retards on either side of the political spectrum.