Thread 150439554

>shit runs
>shit stories
>shit characterization
>shit placement
Fix him

>>150439554 (OP)
make him a nudist

>>150439554 (OP)
Have him win dc ko and beat darkseid

>>150439554 (OP)
Have Joker kill him again

There's nothing to fix. Only losers read comics.

Either get him away from Batman or commit to him being an antagonist/villain.
People keep trying to ride the Under the Red Hood hype that Carrie’s Jason’s entire character, but forget that the comic is about Batman, and Jason is the villain like Morrison did.
Jason’s character nowadays is just, “looking cool and killing people the author dislikes with no consequences” even though there’s a very solid story to be told with him.
Jason wanting to believe that the mother who left him had really loved him and changed, just to get handed to Joker and beaten to death is justification enough for why he changed when he became Red Hood. Jason’s motive being, “I hoped people could change, and look where that got me.” is good enough of a character motive.
Writers just refuse to commit on whether he’s supposed to be a sympathetic antagonist and ‘Bruce’s greatest failure,’ or ‘The edgy boi of the batfam’.
Jason can only be ‘fixed’ when writers quit trying to have their cake and eat it.

>>150439554 (OP)
divorce him from all the bat nonsense, have him kill the joker while bruce watches, give him his team back

>>150440196
My fucking man. I just want him to go back to his Winnick roots and get back to fucking up criminals. It doesn't make sense for him to play nice with the Batfamily. I literally can't think of any situation where Bruce would condone his behavior unless the Justice League was utilizing Jason on their behalf.

How old is Jason supposed to be exactly?

>>150440196
This. Jason's character can't work if he's a member of the Batfamily.

>>150440196
>commit to him being an antagonist/villain.
For killing murderers and rapists? Why are you comic nerds like this?

>>150439554 (OP)
Just 1 great moment.

>>150440425
It's insane how they keep redesigning his costume and it's always way worse than the original

>>150439554 (OP)
Have Red hood be a temporary thing he is doing out of hatred and hurt.
You can't give him reoccurring villains if he kills them all, neither can you put him against other rogues gallery members if he just kills them too.
Jason works best when bouncing off Batman and struggling with trying to be good and wanting to hurt people who hurt him.
He can come to the realisation that he is doing is wrong and be welcomed back into the batfamily and stay edgy and brutal but non-killing.
Otherwise there is literally nothing special about him like wow, he has guns and shoot people, never seen that before.

>>150440724
>Beheaded eight guys and shoved their heads into a duffel bag with some semtex to blow up a warehouse full of mobsters, then used a minigun to take out the survivors
>Blew up an oil tanker on Batman and Nightwing and set an Amazo on them all as a gag?
>Dressed up as Nightwing and became a knife-wielding serial killer
>Stripped Dick and Damian (a child mind you) naked and linked a livestream of it to a poll
>That time he legit tried to kill Tim
>All of this happened within 6 years of comics
Jason’s sympathetic, and will sometimes kill people that deserve it, but don’t act like he hasn’t pulled enough shit over the years to justify being treated like an antagonist.

>>150440196
>>150440425
>>150440720
UTRH was a terrible story.
>>150440724
He literally protects pimps and drug dealers in UTRH.

>>150440892
Jason stopped being sympathetic when you realize its for the sake of being a petty bitch.

>From bringing him back to life to bringing him back from incarceration, you've done a lot with Todd. Was he a favorite Batman character of yours before you started writing him?

>Before I didn't have any particular love or interest in the character at all really. I read him just like anybody else, and when he died-well, I lied in one interview, because I thought it made for a better ending: they asked "Did you call in? What did you call in for?" and I said I called in for him to live. But that's a lie, I wasn't even one of the people who called in, I think I actually bought it as a trade when it was done. So, it wasn't that I had a burning desire to bring Jason Todd back. It was more about-when Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee did "Hush," and they revealed that Hush was Jason Todd, I thought it was just a great, great idea. It gave the story someplace to go, it was terrific, I was excited about it-and then it turned out to be Clayface. And I felt like, aww. But you know what, I still say its a great story. So when it got to be my turn, I wanted to pursue that story I thought about when they first did the reveal its Jason Todd. Just when I get the idea that, you know, Hush is Jason Todd, I'm like oh god, its great! [Batman's] greatest failure has come back from the grave! With everything he's ever trained him to do being used against him! It's terrific, its an opera, I love it. That was really the suggestion that inspired me to make that story. And since then I spent a couple of years doing the "Under the Hood" arc, and then we did the [animated "Under the Hood"] movie, which was fun too. And here we are again. I like it. I like him.

It’s funny how people want to think Winick knows the character like the back of his hand when he admits to never caring about Jason, even lying for the sake of clout. This faggot literally ruined Jason Todd by making him the REEEEEEE WHY DIDNT YOU KILL JOKER DADDY bitch we know today,

>>150440993
If you're a fan of Jason, would you have preferred he stayed dead?

>>150441006
No, because I actually want Jason to put Bruce’s feet to the fire for being a shitty father and discrediting his time as Robin. I didn’t get that in UTRH because Judd literally didn’t care about the prior history between the two.

>>150439554 (OP)
Give him one last hurrah as Red Hood (and use >>150440745 as his costume ideally) in a Batfamily story and then have him retire from vigilantism, he's been personally burned bad by it after all. Stick him under the watch of Jim Gordon and he can be a cop under him who appears from time to time as a supporting character, inevitably gets dragged back into shit once in a while but never fully re-enters the caped crimefighting life.

>>150440196
The problem is that there are four camps when it comes to Jason. One thinks he should be a Punisher clone and that's good, one thinks he should be a Punisher clone and that's bad, one group that thinks it's fine if he kills some criminals but is measured in how he uses lethal force, and one group that wants him to be the uWu, edgy but not too edgy member of the Batfamily. The popularity of Jason is built entirely on the third group who liked UtRH (or at least the adaptation because lets be real the actual storyline is kind of a meandering mess and interrupted by crossover shit) and saw Jason's actions as a logical point of opposition to Bruce's philosophy. DC has pretty consistently not wanted to give that group what they ask for. Initially they leaned more towards the second group due to Morrison and other writers treating him as a pure villain, while more recently they've leaned more towards the fourth group. At no point have they ever recognized the appeal is that Jason opposes Bruce philosophically but doesn't necessarily want to fight him all the time. Instead you get shit like Morrison's run which is basically an OC or their current trend where he's the diet coke version of himself.

>>150441093
>and saw Jason's actions as a logical point of opposition to Bruce's philosophy.
Said fans also forget that the entire point of the UTRH movie was Jason putting Gotham in danger for the sake of making Bruce choose between him and Joker.

>>150441069
That fits Tim much more than it does Jason

Jaybinfaggot is crying because Jason isn’t a Dick clone again lol

>>150440425
>ak-47

>>150441135
Yeah, Jason is the blatant antagonist/villain, which is fine.
The issue is that the questions he poses to to Bruce’s morality has still never gotten an actual answer because you can never actually answer it in a way that DOESN’T portray Batman in a negative light. The comic has him slash Jason’s neck to save Joker, all but saying, “Batman would rather fight Joker’s victims than kill Joker”. The movie has Jason throw a fit and beat himself, effectively going, “None of Jason’s point matters because he’s an unstable loser.”
It's "better" in that Bats gets to look like a hero, but worse in that it still doesn't answer the question.

>>150441226
No, it’s not fine that Jason is an antagonist. He’s literally made into a strawman antagonist despite being the victim of this in the first place.

>>150439554 (OP)
Make him a ginger with a white streak,scar his face after run in with joker,give him a modified pillhead suit without thigh high boots
Make him a mix of batmans tactics and punishers lethality and have him go after organised crime,cults and lesser known metahumans,artemis and arsenal can show up every so often and it can have overarching story in the background dealing with bizarro and trying to off joker ,make it an anthology book,he gets the joker at the end with a small chance of joker surviving
Call it Red Hood and Worlds Deadliest as a riff on worlds finest
He only interacts with batfamily if their interrest align otherwise only damien and aflred when hes back dont attack him on sight,bruce pulls his punches

>>150441226
The Joker problem is something DC kinda made for themselves.
Both with having Joker kill way too many people in really fucked up ways and having characters acknowledge that he'll never stay in Arkham longer than a week.

>>150441135
Pretty weak point considering that Black Mask was trafficking in Justice League level threats before Red Hood made his move. And it's even worse in the comics where not only was he dealing with an Amazo, but a literal shipping crate full of kryptonite, using Mr. Freeze as a hired gun, and allied with the Secret Society of Supervillains. On top of this, it's coming after the heels of War Games, a massive crossover event where Bruce fails to stop a 17 year old girl he fired for incompetence who is using one of his own plans - a plan that is more or less the same idea that Jason is using, and the start of the third act is Batman watching Bludhaven getting destroyed. Jason isn't putting Gotham in any more danger because of his actions, and a lot of actions taken by Black Mask are explicitly targeting Jason alone. And if we're going by the comic, the subplot with the Joker isn't related to the Black Mask plotline in the slightest.

>>150441578
>Jason isn't putting Gotham in any more danger because of his actions,
Anon, he's literally starting a gang war on the heels of a prior gang war that left many dead.

>>150439554 (OP)
He should died and never return, or at least let him get rid of everything about Gotham City, Batman and Batfamily, and let him live a normal life.

>effectively ruins Jason Todd for the next twenty years
I can't wait till they make UTRH live action and clown on Jason like a bitch.

>>150441246
Antagonist simply means the character in opposition. You can have characters in opposition to each other while not having them as enemies. Jason and Bruce's conflict should be an ethical debate within the context of their crimefighting. Jason should be arguing that Bruce's approach is ineffectual and based on assumptions of personal change and social support not in evidence while Bruce should be arguing that Jason's approach is equally presumptive and actively precludes personal change while asking him to prove how effectual it really is, as they race to stop Ventriloquist or someone from blowing up a building with the assumption that if Jason gets there first he's putting a bullet in them.

>>150441650
He won a fucking gang war in a couple of days by his lonesome.

>>150441899
>Antagonist simply means the character in opposition. You can have characters in opposition to each other while not having them as enemies.
Except that was never the intent in the first place as seen in >>150440993 where it all hindges entirely on Winick being a stupid idiot who couldn't see the forest for the trees. Revolving the argument around the basis of the no-kill rule is stupid because it shifts the spotlight away from the real problem at hand, namely the divide between Jason and Bruce at the start of Starlin's run and Bruce's inability of being there for Jason. By making Joker and the no-kill rule the centerpiece of the story because it is, Jason loses his agency and his legitimate grievnces are washed away, and Bruce learns nothing.

>>150441912
Not only did he start a gang war, but he also protects the very same people who make life a living hell for the people who live in Gotham.

>>150439554 (OP)
I like the alt universe version of him being a Catholic priest. Just make him DC's daredevil and he'll be fine again.

>>150441982
Literally Bruce's fallback plan in War Games that was stolen by Steph.

>>150442024
I don't think the War Games states to protect niggas who sell women and coke.

>>150439554 (OP)
He should have stayed dead. Not because I don't like the concept of Red Hood, but because no one at DC is capable of finding a good direction for him.

>>150441093
I personally subscribe to the third group but I've accepted that I'm never going to get what I want. Making him a pure villain could work but the way Morrison did it was dumb and it would require more commitment than DC is willing to give.

>>150439554 (OP)
>Jason tries to get out of the vigilante game, but keeps getting pulled back in.
>Very street level stories about him protecting a specific Gotham slum
>He would rather not kill, but isn't going to lose sleep over it.
>Butts heads with Batman, but it is clear both of them want a relationship, just aren't sure how
>Reluctantly asks Oracle for help when he needs it
>Teams up with Dick occasionally, calls him 'Golden Boy', relationship is better than with Batman, but still strained
>Batfamily does not show up often, maybe one character once an arc
>Focus is on protecting his community, showing him healing a bit by becoming involved

That's what I'd do anyway, but I'm not a professional or anything.

>>150441093
I feel like most people in that fourth camp simply know the character from that Wayne family webcomic and probably have never read anything else with him.

>>150442164
>and probably have never read anything else with him.
The same is said about the other camps.

>>150439554 (OP)
Have him join the GCPD, or make him the new commissioner, because fuck it, if Vandal Savage can be the commissioner right Jason might as well be. Though a better middle ground would probably just be making him lead a special unit within the GCPD that has more autonomy for whatever contrived reason you'd like.
Anyway, putting Jason on the GCPD and just being pro-police-brutality would be a better way to use the character than making him a cheap Punisher knock off. There's always a bit of implicit tension with Batman's police allies having guns when he's so militant about his no killing rule the rest of the time. Plus it would be a good excuse to give him an Arkham Knight inspired costume and his own goons in the form of GCPD hardliners.
Ultimately I just think there's an inherent problem for writing Jason where he's gotta be able to be enemies with Batman most of the time, but then come to his aid for big events and have Batman accept it. I think giving his use of lethal force some sense of partial moral legitimacy would be a good way to solve this problem without getting rid of this weird dynamic and boxing the writers into picking a lane.
idk maybe this is the dumbest shit ever, but Jason is just so cooked as a character I'd be happy to see any serious attempt at fixing him.

>>150441721
>Makes Jason one of the most popular characters with just one story
Holy fucking BASED

>>150439554 (OP)
Everything went wrong because of UTRH. The only benefits of it was Jason coming back and getting a cool design. The fact that people keep asking what went wrong shows comic readers are complete morons.

>most popular
who is going to tell her (formally him)?

>>150439554 (OP)
>Fix him
Okay, first: I decanonized UTRH but I keep the movie's resurrection and his first look. Jason drops the desire to kill when he realizes that killing Joker will never undo the fact that Bruce never understood him as a son and used him as lesson to keep everyone else in check. He declares that the final thread is severed and that he doesn't see Bruce as his father anymore but keeps in touch with the Batfam for the sake of protecting Gotham.

>>150442530
>one of the most popular characters
Poor reading comprehension really is a trait of Dickfags, huh? No wonder the Winick hater sounds so stupid.

>>150442296
I kinda like this

>>150439554 (OP)
>UTRH happened
>Outlaws happened (i'm torn here)
>Dark Trinity happened
cut out literally everything else and he's ok, going forward:
>keep him away from batfam except occasional meet ups
>make him join the government, either on a non-suicide team or GCPD (stealing other anon's idea) or something
>later runs make him a disgruntled mentor figure
>half retire him by that point, only shows up in other runs doing his own thing

>>150442744
I hate to tell you this Winicktranny, but Jason is literally damaged goods because of Winick. Literally every time he shows up the plot literally declines by fifty perfect. Imagine being such a shit character fucking Cass has a better runs than you. Imagine so fucking shit, that Damian fucking Wayne has a better arc than you.

>>150443027
The dark trinity has always been a terrible idea. Jason Todd is a character rooted in Gotham’s grit. Partnering him with nobodies like Artemis and Bizarro dilutes that.

>>150443027
UTRH and Outlaws can’t coexist because Lobdell’s retcon erased UTRH.

>>150443085
i only include it because of jason + roy. the magic sword and allcast stuff, the space faring, how they treat starfire, all sucks.
>>150443073
and yet it works. lobell struggled to write it but it was still the best jason had gotten since UTRH.

>>150440425
It's funny to me how out of every since Red Hood redesign, the original is still the best
I don't know who started the "red face" on the mask. But Red hood's design works best when it's just his eyes that are visible

>Bat-family
This seems to be the crux of the problem. How about we kill off most "members" and keep only Batman, Alfred, one ex-Robin and one Robin?

I liked Task Force Z, Jason should interact with Batman villains more, I particularly liked his dynamic with Two-Face.

>>150443129
Except it didn’t. That shit sold like ass because nobody wanted to read it.

>>150440892
And he nuked Bludhaven!

>>150440196
>get him away from Batman
YOU CAN'T GET HIM AWAY FROM BATMAN
THAT'S LIKE HALF THE REASON HE EXISTS
HE EXISTS TO REMIND BRUCE THAT HE FAILED

>>150439554 (OP)
I get Batman editorial is incredibly possessive over its characters but I still find it unbelievable that DC didn’t try to expand Jason’s “dark trinity” Outlaws team. The Artemis/Bizarro team was probably Jason’s most well liked status quo alongside what he was doing in UTRH.
Each major JL member as a forgotten supporting cast or villains that haven’t been seen in years or even decades that could’ve used some attention/revamping

>Peekaboo or Rainbow Raider for Flash
>Rankorr, Mala, or some other Red/Sinestro corps member that never gets used or hell make an Indigo Corp OC since nobody ever uses them
>Koryak, Lagoon Boy, or hell just take an old Aquaman villain that needs revamping like V’lana or Marauder
>revamp Bel Juz for J’onn because she was cute precrisis

>>150443262
>The Artemis/Bizarro team was probably Jason’s most well liked status quo alongside what he was doing in UTRH.
That shit bombed and for good reason, it was a terrible team.

>>150443041
Not really his fault that most writers don’t write Jason the way he did.

ah, he's just a fag. nvm. lmao even

>>150443340
What do you mean? They wrote him like the piece of shit he was in UTRH.

>>150443129
But Dark Trinity is also doubling down on the retcon with Black Mask having no memory of Jason.

>>150439554 (OP)
Honestly I feel like Red Hood has a lot of similar problems with most Batman villains and characters who have good introductions but then the writers have no idea what to do with them going forward. It feels more apparent with Red Hood because of how frequent he flip flops between an antagonistic character or apart of the bat family. I personally would make him an antagonist character because I feel like the bat family angle has been explored and it’s just not that interesting. We already have characters in the bat family that fulfill the archetypes that Red Hood has, so it feels really uninteresting to have him in there any longer. Just fully commit to having Red Hood as an antagonist and explore a post mortem character torn between life and death.

>>150443376
I remember when Johns asked Winick on how to write Jason, and Winick made it a point to tell him that Jason was a little bitch, so Johns presented him as a crybaby bitch when he fought Tim.

>>150443376
They wrote him as the bad guy in their own way, not the same way Winick did.

It's weird how we're living in a time where Lobdell is the LESS controversial Red Hood writer

>>150443471
If it makes you feel any better, Winick literally did it because he just wanted an evil Robin vs Batman story, and made Jason like that without any long term plan.

>>150443484
He said Jason is a bad guy with a little “b”, meaning he’s not absolutely evil.

>>150443509
There is no terrible Lobdel run without Winick to start it in the first place. It literally cannot be overstated how bad UTRH is on account of Jason flopping to this day.

>>150443550
I would say decapitating people, protecting drug dealers and pimps is pretty evil. If Judd doesn’t think that, then the wrong person died of AIDS.

>>150443504
In other words, a piece of shit which is what he intended.

>>150443574
Those people were criminals, and he only protected the ones who followed his rules. Plus, he did it all to control crime.
>>150443611
Not really.

Be honest, if you had to pick between an issue of RHATO and an early 90s issue of LOTDK, which would you choose?

>>150443663
Lmao he’s continuing the facilitation of crime. He continuing to make life a living hell for the people who swore to protect, retard.

>>150439554 (OP)
Make him a villain for the Batfamily, and particularly as a foil to Dick. The Bruce/Jason dynamic can be mined so many times before it gets tired.

>>150441226
>The issue is that the questions he poses to to Bruce’s morality has still never gotten an actual answer because you can never actually answer it in a way that DOESN’T portray Batman in a negative light.
No, the problem is that writers do a piss poor job at writing Batman just to make Jason seem more right to keep the discussion going. The writer has already denounced the comic version anyway and rendered it defunct, so it's pointless to use it for your argument.

>>150441226
No mention of Bruce failing Jason as his father?
Joker doesn’t need an explanation in ethics for why his crimes are bad.

>>150443839
>The Bruce/Jason dynamic can be mined so many times before it gets tired.
It hasn’t even been mined yet.

>>150443839
Jason gets absolutely nothing out of being Dick’s foil.

>>150439554 (OP)
Morrison's solution was to make him an antagonist. And I kind of agree that he works better outside of Batman, or rather, he doesn't work outside of his original story. You have to reboot Batman to make him work. His methods are okay in the Arkham universe because in that universe Batman is more militarized, but in normal continuity it doesn't work.

>>150443737
Yeah, and that actually makes Gotham safer.

>>150443959
Drugs flooding the streets and women being sold for sex does not make Gotham safer. Otherwise Baltimore is fucking paradise.

>>150443935
I feel like mainline Batman is the most militarized. Like, he's got a million fucking anti-superman robots with gay shit like micro-suns in the knuckles. Arkham Batman has like, a cool tank and that's it.

>>150444027
The main storyline has a childish tone. Arkham really emphasizes the militaristic aspect by portraying the Batman family as soldiers. They are not cute twinks and big-breasted red-haired chicks (not that this is unrealistic), they are more like soldiers.

>>15044355
But that fashion sense in Teen Titans #29 was absolutely criminal.

>>150443980
That’s completely wrong. Jason wiped out other gangs, doesn’t push his crew to flood the streets with drugs, and never forces women into prostitution.

Why was Winick obsessed with making Jason a child prostitute?

>>150444205
suffering builds character

>>150444205
Writers and authors often try to incorporate their fetishes into their work.

>>150441503
Absolutely. Trying to make in-universe justifications for Out-Of-Universe reasonings always ends up tying characters into knots.

>>150443891
Because for all intents and purposes, Bruce didn’t really ‘fail’ him in his time as Robin, that’s from retcons.
Sure, Jason Robin could be rude, but he was still a good kid with a strong sense of justice. The ONLY time you could come off as Jason being a loose cannon was right before DitF where Jason got benched by Bruce for not saving a sadistic rapist who’d gotten off on diplomatic immunity and one of his victims killed herself (and Jason had been the one to find her body).
The idea of Jason being an asshole his whole stint as Robin didn’t come until DitF where Starlin deliberately wrote him that way to sway the poll voters to kill him off. But even despite that, Starlin still gave Jason a respectful and heroic death trying to protect his mother who’d just handed him to Joker and been outside taking a smoke while her own son was being beat to death.
A death that would be misremembered as cocky arrogant Jason trying to fight Joker on his own and getting what he deserved, and other characters shitting on Jason to gas up Tim when he came around.
If he really was a bad Robin from Day 1, then that makes Bruce a shitty Batman and a shittier parent to have ever made Jason a Robin without bothering to make sure that he met the proper standards. The rewriting of Jason Robin’s actions/history via flashbacks only succeed at making Batman look negligent.

>>150444392
The fundamental problem with Jason is that he can’t really be reconciled with the rest of the Batfam without some SERIOUS work to address a lot of shit, and DC Writers and Editorial have neither the patience nor effort to do any of that, so it’s a constant back-and-forth of whether Jason is hanging out with the others in Wayne Family Adventures or getting beaten by Bruce and mind controlled by him into leaving Gotham and never coming back.
Every Robin is a reflection of some aspect of Batman, and Jason represents that pragmatic Batman that fundamentally knows crime will never truly go away, and as such does his best to control it to an extent. If you want Batfam Jason, then you’d need to have Jason and Bruce actually work through their beef and come to some common ground.
But Jason going back to the costumed vigilante life is retarded. He should be the opposite of Bruce and Dick in that he has no real connections to the super powered people he relied on who’s failed him. His goal should make a world where no hopelessly hopeful kid can get dragged off, crowbar'd and blown up waiting for some guy in a costume to show up and save him, only for said idiot to fail and everyone move on.
Jason should be reaching the places they aren't or can't to do what they don't/won't. He should be a reminder and embodiment of Bruce's success and failure. Since editorial is so obsessed with Batman not killing the Joker, Jason should represent what happens when hero fails to save the day. The victims save themselves by any means necessary.

>>150444468
But even if either of these actually happened, all that’d come from it is pissing some of the various factions of Jason’s fanbase off, ad then the next writer will retcon it bring us back to square one all over again.

>>150444514
There is no character development in the Big 2 comic.

>>150444468
Thoughts on making him a cop like some anons have suggested?
Seems like a good way to keep him distanced from Bruce while still close enough that they can interact more often.

>>150444205
In the early to late 00s DC in general was obsessed with everything dark and edgy and that included having heroes being molested as children.

>Jason implied to have been a child prostitute (Winick)
>Jade had her backstory changed to her being molested in an orphanage (Marz)
>Lian was kidnapped and raped by child traffickers (Winick)
>Grace Choi's background was being a child prostitute by those same child traffickers (Winick)
>Mia Dearden/Speedy II's background was being groomed by a man who became her pimp when she was a teenage (Smith) and then she got HIV (Winick)
>Rumor from 00s saying Robinson was going to reveal Obsidian to have been sexually abused by hiad adoptive dad, in addition to the already established physical abuse

>>150439554 (OP)
>UTRH reveals he was actually at the cemetery during Hush, Clayface swappped with him later
>H2SH retconned this, he was never there and seemingly never met with Hush to confirm Bruce’s secret identity
Thoughts?

>>150444608
This is also true. Really, Jason probably should have been DC’s Gwen Stacy where they’ll consistently toy with the idea of bringing him back, but never actually committing to it outside of Elseworlds and Alternate Universes. Sure it’s blue-balling, but it’d be a better state for him as a character than where he is now.

>>150444648
It’s… SOMETHING, but it still falls into the same problem of pissing off portions of Jason fans off because so many of them are terminally brainrotted on Xitter politics, so it’d just immediately be undone and shat on, both by other Jason fans and Jason detractors. That Red Hood comic that JUST got pulled had a bunch of cops killing themselves ffs.
Jason isn’t really the sort of character I could see being content as a cop. Going from vigilante working outside the law to a position where he has to firmly work WITHIN it would be an interesting internal conflict at the least, I’ll give it that.

The only Red Hood I know is the movie with Jensen Ackles where he's just objectively correct and the dogshit Arkham Knight game where he's played by that dickface Troy Baker and everyone called him being Jason the second the character was revealed.

>>150439554 (OP)
there's alot of people in this thread don't really get why jason as red hood was a fan favorite in the first place.

people like/want the punisher what so hard for you guys (and DC) to get.

>>150444973
The thing with Punisher is that while he started as a villain, he’s not intrinsically tied to another, more comparatively noble hero as a motivation, and characters with loose kill codes are fairly common in Marvel. Frank got his revenge ages ago, he just keeps killing because ‘the war’ gives him a sense of purpose.
Jason’s from a very different setting where the sorts of niches that characters like Frank fill are stuck on the Suicide Squad or firmly villains.
But Marvel also vehemently hates people who enjoy Punisher the ‘incorrect’ way and are constantly trying to rebrand or fix him to make him more marketable, so they do a bunch of crazy shit to see what sticks.
Like that time Frank got Nick Fury to send him back in time to kill Al Capone.
Or that other time he got time traveled and became a Frankenstein monster.
Or that time a bit ago where he became the god of war.
Jason would actually BENEFIT from more crazy plots to try and find a niche. Have him become The Spectre for a bit, worked great for Hal. Or have him go back in time to try and stop himself from finding his mom. Put him back on the Suicide Squad again. Just do SOMETHING with him besides trying to capture his Winnick days again.

>>150439554 (OP)
There was a really good character moment for him in, I shit you not, Gotham Knights.
>Shit's been getting rough
>Jason's already pissed off about losing Bruce and the situation's only been getting worse as the story progresses
>He's been tuning his non-lethal ammunition for higher performance
>Tim notices that the new rounds seem to be running a bit hot and asks Jason if he's really sure about this
>Jason stubbornly insists that it's fine, he's totally sure that they're safe
>Tim steps in front of the target and spreads his arms wide, telling him to prove it
>Jason can't pull the trigger, conceding that his equipment and methods are getting too dangerous. If he's worried about doing permanent harm to his own pseudo-brother, the risk is too high.
>Tim then offers to help whip up some new ammunition that boosts performance without sacrificing safety
That game is super average at best but its character writing is really solid.

>>150445082
His interactions with Harley outside her cell was also weirdly good and understated for how mid that game was. The animators and actor did a pretty good job of portraying the weird mix of nostalgia, pity, resentment and exhaustion that he has talking to her. Such a weird game.

For all the bad rap the series has here in the west, is interesting how is a lot easier to find fanart of the original Outlaws done by chinks or nips. They really like that version of the characters.

>>150444973
>what so hard for you guys (and DC) to get.
DC is staffed with retards that are constantly making bad decisions. You can't expect them to "get" anything.

>>150439554 (OP)
Didn't his most recent comic get canceled after the first issue?

>>150445485
Yes, fortunately.

>>150445485
He is a very successful character.

>>150440196
>looking cool and killing people the author dislikes with no consequences
Idk what to tell except, w ay to out yourself. The only instance where this happen is in UTRH with Captain Nazi and it stilll not without consequences since UTRH doesn't end there.
>>150440425
> Bruce has never condoned or teamed with wosst than this guy who use rubber bullets.
Another Red Hood expert.

>>150440892
>Dami schizo is babysitting this thread
Make sense

>>150441899
Bruces philosophy would work better if we got more examples of redemption. Fucks sake there was that thing where killer croc went job hunting and somwhow bruce the billionaire cant find a decent job for the lizardman who can lift 1000 lbs so its back to crime.

>>150441045
This would be the only reason to bring back Jason. Too bad we live in the bad timeline.
>>150441246
Batman can't fight or win against someone who isn't a strawman.

>>150445223
>is interesting how is a lot easier to find fanart of the original Outlaws done by chinks or nips. They really like that version of the characters.
Sounds like money to be made.

>>150444205
>>150444296
>>150444345
>>150444662
That wasn’t Winick, you retards that Tony Daniel.

>>150444162
No: he allowed it. He lets them do their thing while he gets a cut. Somehow to you troons, the idea of Jason protecting the same people he hated as a child is good writing despite being a contrived 180 of his character. But then again, all of Winick’s fans are gigantic retards. You probably think Mia Dearden is an awesome character because she has AIDS.

>>150444973
Yeah, but those people who liked UTRH are retards with terrible taste. It’s like being a fan of Emerald Twilight Hal Jordan pre-Rebirth: yeah, I get why you like it… but your taste is shit because of it.
Making Jason into a Punisher bootleg was always a stupid idea. Why would I read about a bootleg when I can easily get the real deal?

>>150446346
>Another Red Hood expert.
Who the fuck said anything about rubber bullets? Way to fill in the fucking blanks dude (ha).

>>150446547
Are they talking about BftC? I thought there was some Winick interview where he talked about the stuff he pitched that got shot down, that included a bunch of edgy shit for Jason's time on the streets.

>>150446570
He allowed it because wiping out every gang would create a power vacuum, and a new, potentially more dangerous group would move in. By letting one gang operate under his control, Jason ensured there was a single dominant force, keeping crime more contained and Gotham safer overall.

>>150439554 (OP)
They were like
>we want the Punisher audience
And then they were like
>but we also need to steal from an actual comic book series

>>150446743
Yeah. It was BFTC.
>>150446778
>he’s making Gotham safer!
>lets the drug dealers operate
>let’s the pimps continue to pimp women
>let’s the racketeers continue their shakedowns
Yeah, no. He’s ensuring Gotham stays a shithole. Retard.

>>150446547
Tony Daniel was just following Winick.

Winick implied Jason was a child prostitute in his Green Arrow run when he beats Mia (a former child prostitute) up and blows up her school.

>>150444468
>>150444514
Do you have the Stupid Sexy Jason Todd image?
The one where he's kneeling down with hands behind head in the prison outfit

>>150447088
He really didn’t, his implication was so wide that it could have ranged from steal to murder.

>>150439554 (OP)
I feel like the primary way to fix him is to use him sparingly.

>>150446991
>>lets the drug dealers operate
Most of the drug dealers in Gotham were eliminated by him, and even his own men are punished if they break his rules, retard.
>>let’s the pimps continue to pimp women
Seriously, Batman never actually tried to fix the prostitution problem, so what’s the issue with Jason trying to do something about it? He isn’t going to let them do whatever they want, and just killing them wouldn’t magically solve anything.

>>150443138
Arkham Knight and Three Jokers designs both mog the original. An actual hood is a good parallel to the first Red Hood’s cape and superhero capes in general. Also the design needed more red, he ceases to be “Red” anything if he takes the helmet off.

>>150444392
Jason's time as Robin being retroactivley messed with is the reason he has so many shit stories as Red Hood.
Dick had irl over 50 years as Robin, which let his character be well explored and defined natrually. Which then makes him becoming Nightwing feel like a natural and earned evolution.
Jason had a poorly defined tenure as Robin, which gets further muddied by writers and fans simply not reading pre DitF stories with Jason as Robin.
Letting people redefine who Jason was when he was 12, means he can't have any kind of understanable characterization as on adult.

>>150439554 (OP)
Okay, if we're using him as the protagonist, first thing is first. Ditch the anti-hero and "member of the Batfamily". It doesn't work, it limits the character and it makes him just a tumblr edgy boy with nothing much to do.

Secondly, look at who Jason Todd was. Not this fanon/tumblr backstory. Look at his stories before his death, the type of characters he had connections with (not just Batman and Dick Grayson). He was pen pals with Kid Devil, friends with Danny Chase etc. He was the kid who wanted to be Dick Grayson, quite literally dying his hair to be more like Dick... but showed traits that made him unsuitable as a hero.

Secondly, look at where he was and what worked post rez. The strongest direction he had was when he was a twisted reflection of Nightwing/Robin and a living failure of Batman.

Likewise, of all his solo books, Rebirth Outlaws was the strongest direction and the big difference is that Jason wasn't playing second to Nightwing and having his own relationships.

From that, build.

My suggestion personally is that while that new solo was a shit opening, its idea of moving Jason entirely away from Batman and starting his own operation was a smart idea. The second is rebuilding the Outlaws. Look at the younger heroes ala Risk and Kid Devil who were let down by their mentors and Jason gradually builds a team around them, deciding that he will try to use his experience to basically be the new managment for supercrime.

In contrast to the Lobdell and the run which was pulped which desperately avoided exploring that Jason is kind of a shit both prior to and after his resurrection, explore and embrace that instead of trying to appease the twitter/tumblr crowd.

>>150445082
That whole story is built for Jason.
It's kinda fucked up that Jason can't redeem himself unless Bruce dies in a way completely unrealated to Jason.

>>150445082
The writing looked CW tier.
Do you just like CW slop or is it actually good?

>>150447868
It's 70% CW slop with moments of brilliance that would stand out as noteworthy even if the game weren't shit. It just needed more time in the oven.

>>150440811

Fuck that noise. Red Hood should stay as DC’s Punisher and anyone who thinks otherwise is a faggot.

>>150442136

Jason being fine with killing should make him the Batfamily’e number 1 opp.

Either have Jason stop killing and join the Batfamily again (cringe and gay)

Or have him say “fuck all of you” and go back to killing crooks (Kek and basado)

>>150442643

>Jason drops the desire to kill

God you people piss me off.

>>150447653
>Look at the younger heroes ala Risk and Kid Devil who were let down by their mentors
In what world did Risk have a mentor?
Who do you mean, the alien that raped his mom and dumped her back on Earth?

>>150448300
I mean you can argue the Atom. In general though, poor dude has his fucking arms ripped off and everyone seemed to have just abandoned him.

>>150448313
The Atom was a divorced teenager going through a mid-life crisis when he was on the Titans.

>>150448321
Absolutely, but Risk was absolutely pissy enough that he joined Deathstroke and his Titans East.

I think with this hypothetical book, the big thing is looking at while these guys had reasons (good and bad) for feeling let down, also explore who they actually are and if they are actually wanting to change things or just tear shit down oout of spite.

>>150444392

Thanks for reminding me that Jason’s mom was a piece of shit.

God I have never wished death on a comic character so much. I should write a fanfic where Jason kills her shortly after he comes back as Red Hood.

>>150448389
That had nothing to do with The Atom or any anger at a missing mentor. The Atom hasn't been associated with the Titans outside that one short run.
Risk was angry enough to join Deathstroke because he lost an arm and his team abandoned him.

>>150446384

This. If we actually saw his villains being redeemed then maybe Batman’s points would stand.

By every single one is an unrepentant serial killer so Batman just looks like a dumbass.

I like the Batman costume of Jason

>>150446991
All of those groups existed under batman as well.

>>150439554 (OP)
He needs a female sidekick by his side

>>150446667
I did because you're stupid enough to think he is doing worst than using rubber bullets while he is under Batman's thumb.

>>150449375
This but not gay WFA shit like the image he posted.
Bring back Scarlet.
Let the Punishment fit the Crime!

>>150445082
>Warp Jason to make Tim relevants
Every damn time. Batfam is so shit.

>>150449004
KLINGON BATMAN???

>>150448592
Unironically, the VR arkham game has the single best reason for the no kill rule.

>>150448296
Good. Making Jason into a killer who nonchalantly murders a hundred people was fucking stupid.

>>150449366
But Batman didn’t aid them.

>>150449868
Batman creates his own nemeses these days and that always become Gotham 's problem. Stop taking that lunatic for something he isn't.

>>150449802
>Making Jason into a killer who nonchalantly murders a hundred people was fucking stupid.
The fuck are you talking about, sperg?

>>150447521
>punishes them
>only punishes them if they deal to children
>but dealing to their parents, like how drug dealers sold to him mom? Totally cool and justified
Lmao, Winick ruined him.

>>150450308
Kids usually start drugs because of friends, not their parents, so Jason’s rules target the real risk. Also, he wouldn’t let lethal stuff flood the streets.

>>150450648
This. The kids will only see their parents and loved ones slowly lose their lives to addiction, and destroy family, but so what? It happened to Jason, and he came out fine.
>Also, he wouldn’t let lethal stuff flood the streets.
This, street drugs are known for being high quality candy. Lmao

>>150447586
Jason needed someone who could retroactively salvage Starlin’s take and ADITF ala Green Lantern: Rebirth. Unfortunately, Winick was the first name to get dibs on Jason, and ruined him as a result.

>>150450705
Yeah, that’s better than just taking out a dealer. Without someone controlling the drug trade, worse dealers move in, sell deadlier substances, and people end up dying. Jason’s method at least limits that risk, unlike Batman’s.

>>150450952
Jason’s takes are ruining lives by allowing drugs to flood the streets. He is literally putting children through the same pain he went through as a child. You dumbass.

Make him DC's Scourge. EZ-PZ.
Jason's the point man for a mysterious wealthy backer, (either a retired superhero or supervillain) who goes after super criminals, capturing them if possible, killing them otherwise.Make Joker his first kill, (and let him stay dead for a couple of years). Supporting cast could be his support team, (like an Oracle and an Alfred), plotlines could be Jason trying to figure out who's he really working for, and figuring out what he really wants with his new life.

>>150448572
And now Risk is still dead and irrelevant anyway

We need to have him let go fully of Batman not killing Joker. Bruce can still treat him as his greatest failure, but Jason himself needs to let it the fuck go.

Also put him back with Artemis

>>150446903
Punisher is cool in an edgy way. Red Hood needs to be cool in a broody way, not edgy.

>>150451919
But he nuked Bludhaven and molested Damian, that's bad with a capital B

>>150449375
>brown Robin
Opinion rolled into a tube and shoved up your ass from whence it came from.

>>150447538
Kind of funny how he goes by the name "Red Hood" but only recently has his outfits actually have a hood

>is called "Red Hood"
>doesn't have a wolf-themed main antagonist
???

>>150451919
If Jason is getting a love interest, it has to be Batman comic oriented. They were right to keep Starfire in the Titans ghetto.

>>150452658
If Jason can't kill Joker, let him cuck him with punchline.

Just make a Jason the gay one.
>a broody edgy gay handsome guy who has a soft side for his bf/husband
It will sell like hotcakes!

Why did Mora make Jason so fucking huge in the Knightfight thingy?

>>150452729
Punchline is gross tho

>>150452658
All of his romantic prospects from Batman are terrible.

>>150452757
How's Bernard doing, Tim?

>>150452885
True, it's more the comedy factor I like.

>>150449375
Who’s scarlet?

>>150451968
I’m not that bothered by it personally, and if needed I can just pretend that he has a tan. What bothers me the most is when I look for new pics on tumblr and there is a clear lack of proportions, and the faces are uglified

>>150449544
>>150453926

>>150453133
That’s because they haven’t picked the one he actually needs.

>>150451964
Alright, what's this about Blüdhaven, wasn't that Deathstroke by way of Chemo?

Bump

>>150451124
Jason killed off most of the drug dealers in Gotham, so the idea that he’s just letting drugs flood the streets is bullshit. The only ones left are under his control, and he doesn’t even push for more sales. That means drugs are harder to get now than when every gang had their own supply. Sure, there’s still some around, but if he didn’t keep at least one group in check, another gang would move in and take over the territory. And who knows what kind of shit they’d bring in or how deadly it would be. Jason’s way keeps things contained, which is a hell of a lot better than Batman’s “take out one dealer, watch five more show up with deadlier product” routine.

>>150457262
Anon, he’s letting drugs flow on the streets with the exception that children do not get drugs.

>>150439554 (OP)
So why is this Red Hood costume so problematic? Why do they keep trying to reinvent his image? Just give him this look and his red helmet

>>150457306
Sometime about alt-right shit or something.

>>150457290
Not a single page ever says Jason wants to push more drugs onto the streets.

>>150447663
There's a reason why I brought him to the last level. That final confrontation is really just made for him.

>>150457760
Jason is cool with it on the streets. You are also a very stupid person for defending this by the way.

>>150458257
Yes, he’s so cool with it that the first time a dealer sold drugs to a kid, he planted a bomb to wipe out the entire group before the boss even knew anything. But fortunately, our fucking hero Batman showed up, and they survived to keep selling more drugs to kids.

A lapse in reading comprehension, real or feigned, seems to be the cause of people assuming Jason was defending anyone even though the comic illustrates the opposite.

Black Mask had trouble getting Red Hood to show up for an ambush precisely because Jason never bothers whenever they attacked anywhere on his territory, he was busy attacking outliers on or outside his territory. Eliminating competitors of those who complied to his threats reduced threats to them producing the illusion of safety but he never protects them from anyone.

He only bothered to even show once a big enough dealer was targeted, guaranteeing Batman would get word and show up as well.
Which he does, and Jason admits he was stalling until Bruce showed up and Bruce assisting him without a word suggests even he figured out Jason pretended to take the bait to bait Bruce.

This page >>150441982 itself highlights that he's draining significant money through his scam to financially kneecap those who comply, then uses it to go after everyone else who didn't, no longer bothering with any pitch. Like Joker in TDKR.

>>150445223
Too bad it dragged certain characters down to prop Jason up.
I for one am glad the new book got canceled before it could truly happen with Helena.

I for one liked Task Force Z, and kinda want Jason to fight Mister Bloom again.

>>150459086
And I want Rosenberg to write an ongoing series, but this time with no crowbar bullshit and no no-kill rule.

Make the DCAU Tim the modern telling of Jason's childhood. Literally just copy that good shit, it's already good.

>>150440693
The latest reference in a DC promotional bit was 22 or 23, right? That matches up with Damian being about 14 or 15 now.

Cassandra Cain's current writer says she's an adult woman in her early 20s, with her original history restored, and that matches up with her being born a few months before Jason.

>>150446547
>>150447088
Winick and Daniel were just following Starlin who kept making Jason freak out about sex crimes specifically and tried to make him die of AIDS.

>>150443238
And he destroyed Damian's spine. And killed Stephanie. And poisoned the water supply. And burned the crops.
>>150455023
No, we've decided Jason did it.

>>150459427
The interesting thing about this comparison is the poetry goes all the way.
DCAU Tim like Jason is caught and tortured by Joker, though longer and with more mindbreak than murder at the end.
However DCAU Tim becomes Joker Beyond instead of Red Hood II.

>>150459427
They used Tim's name because they knew that if they went for Jason people would just be waiting for his inevitable death, because Jason is The Robin That Dies.

>>150460047
I recall an anon saying they used Tim's name because he was the current Robin at the time and would make it easier for BTAS viewers with no idea about the dead Robin thing to make the jump to comics without doing homework.

Then again Barbara wasn't swapped with Steph or Cass to sidestep crippling, so who knows.

>>150460122
Barbara Gordon's cultural image is Yvonne Craig in Batman 1966. There were murmurs of bringing her back as Batgirl for years, Paul Dini was geared up to bring her back as Batwoman, the Oracle thing wasn't totally set in stone.

Jason Todd's big cultural impact was his death being covered by major newspapers across America. NYT, LA Times, Washington Post.

It was also about sales. Paul Dini told a pretty big fib to Wizard (or maybe it was Comic Buyer's Guide?) that BTAS Tim Drake totally has nothing to do with that loser Jason, and all similarities were coincidences. Real comics fans know that Jason sucks and Tim is better, the comics told them so.

Years later on the DVD commentary for BTAS, Dini says well duh obviously we based this character on Jason Todd, but we had to use Tim Drake because that's the current Robin in the comics. Of course. Anyone with a brain could put that together.

It wasn't such a rule back then but at least after the Schumacher controversies, DC started aggressive campaigns to convince comic fans that filmmakers actually care about the comics, and every new big budget adaptation is the most canon-accurate love letter to comics yet!

It's total bullshit, but DC fandom is full of idiots who just care about labeling things as canon or uncanon based on canned statements without actually using their own brains. They're a pressure group with disproportionate influence on publicity, really good at obsessively regurgitating word-of-mouth marketing for good or for bad, so you try to feed them the right formula when possible.

>>150458585
So if those drugs were being sold to that kid’s mom, Jason would be cool with it. Got it, retard.

>>150461290
He’s saving way more people than he’s losing in the long run, so of course he’d be fine with it.

>>150458257
>>150457290
You are both arguing over a half-baked plot that only exist to fill-in pages between the tree times Batman met RH (contact point, the realisation, the final fight). Jason wasn't planning anything long term, was alone and fucking with everyone, and he was prepared to die (either at Bruce's hands or by his bomb) during the final.

>>150459086
Jason interacting with any villains who isn't Joker seems to a good niche for RH. At least it's the only one I'm willing to see plays out.
>Bloom
Talks too much for someone who isn't funny. Him, Gotham girl and her brother were the weakest points. It was also stupid to make this in continuity.

>>150461421
UTRH is just one big halfassed, half baked plot desu. The more you read it, the more you realize it’s just a garbage story that didn’t even take advantage of the prior history laid out. It’s just so sad, and it’s why nobody takes Jason seriously these days because it had no plan.

>>150460047
>>150460122
I thought Tim was another Kyle case where DC insisted on using the current one they were pushing while the crew wanted Hal/Jason

>>150461421
>Jason wasn't planning anything long term
Who knows? DC never gave Winick a proper ongoing with Jason. Azrael got 100 issues, while Jason was stuck for years with fucking Lobdell.

>>150461528
Nah, Winick’s admitted he would have ended things on the rooftop, but had he gotten an ongoing, Jason would have been this chaotic neutral type of character who is more of a nuisance that fucks over everyone else.

>>150460047
>>150460122
> Dick as Robin was mandated in BTAS by WB
> Babs is mandated by DC but unlike the Robins, the writers were happy to comply.
> Get rid of Robin by introducing Nightwing in TNBA
> Write Babsgirl as a Robin stand-in
> WB/DC caught on it and mandate another Robin for TNBA
> Writers pick up Jason
> DC mandate them to name him Tim for comic synergy
It's an interview you can found in some artbook for the shows.

>>150461470
>because it had no plan.
Get real. Nobody as a plan in Batman. They doing this shit on auto-pilot. You're right that nobody would care about UTRH if Jason wasn't the bad guy in it. That's the only reason this story get talked or why some people developed a stockholm syndrome over it.

>>150461548
>Winick’s admitted he would have ended things on the rooftop
He lied, just like he lied about siding with Batman.
>Jason would have been this chaotic neutral type of character who is more of a nuisance that fucks over everyone else.
God, that sounds way more fun than anything DC has done with him in the past 10 years.

>>150461587
Denny O’Neil had a plan, and that’s why his editorial run is one of the greatest in comic book history.

>>150461589
It’s just as stupid as it sounds because that’s not Jason Todd. His Jason Todd is somehow a less deeper character than the one who died in 1988.

>>150461474
Well, the situation somehow feels at least a tiny bit different, even if it's the same outcome.

The DCAU guys grew up on 1970s comics, right? There seems to have been some legitimate fondness for Hal Jordan and they saw him as their platonic ideal for what Green Lantern should be. It seems like it's actually a matter of respect and history for Hal's place in DC. Wistful.

The BTAS writers were kind of pushed to reluctantly include Robin in the first place, even though they somewhat preferred 1970s solo Batman. Given that they were required to include a Robin, the BTAS guys wanted a Robin who fit the dark deco noir setting and would form a family unit with Bruce. Clearly that's Jason on both counts. But eh it just doesn't feel like they're set on honoring Jason as a distinct comics character, the way that DCAU Kyle is so aggressively a tribute to Hal.

>>150461528
>But in another time line it could have happened
Unlikely but unconcequential. In our timeline Winnick knew he was passing the baton soon and RH's fate is the only one left open by the end of UTRH after Joker explodes his bomb to kill them all. Jason being already bleeding to death from the batarang before that. He put back the toy in the box so the next writers could do whatever. Everything that tried to follow on that was unashamed character assassination that exist to move the goal post about the no-kill rule discourses.

>>150461594
Such as?

>>150461637
>Everything that tried to follow on that was unashamed character assassination that exist to move the goal post about the no-kill rule discourses.
As opposed to Winick’s unashamed character assassination that existed to erase Jason’s prior character to make him into a bad guy who protects drug dealers and pimps and take away his agency by revolving his character around Joker/no-kill rule despite Joker only being the means to an end?

>>150461600
>His Jason Todd is somehow a less deeper character than the one who died in 1988.
This thread proves otherwise.

>>150461668
This entire thread is bemoaning the dire state of the character as a result of everyone ignoring his prior character.

>>150461650
Same anon and calm your tits. I agree with you, RH is a completely different character from Jason but it wasn't the point here. If we're talking character assassination with Jason it starts right after the kid dropped dead. Winnick or that guy from Hush didn't invent anything. They were just the first to go "but what if Batman's failure TM came back to be the villain DC insist he would be if not for Batman's influence".

>>150461650
>to make him into a bad guy who protects drug dealers and pimps
Stop trying, retard. You’ve already lost.
>>150461701
Everyone liked him when he was a good kid, but no one wants him back just to be another Dick clone.

>>150439554 (OP)
He is one of those "Characters who is only liked by people with the good fortune not to actually read any of their stories." Like BatLMAO.

In fact, i'd call him the posterchild of "Popular characters that people only like the idea of, rather than actually like their stories." Because he's really a 1 trick pony at this point.

>"YOU LEFT ME TO DIE BATMAN!!! I WAS YOUR SON AND YOU LET ME DIE!!! AND THEN YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS TO TAKE REVENGE!!!"

And there's the problem. You have a character with the means and skills to take revenge, but the only way he can do that is by killing a far more markettable character, meaning that that's never going to happen in any meaningful sense.

>>150461817
>another Dick clone.
Pre-crisis Jaybin is a campy parody of who people think Dick was as Robin but wasn't.
Post-crisis Jaybin is nothing like Dick. Starlin or not.

>>150461819
>the posterchild
That would be Batman of which RH and plenty other are just a derivative.

>>150461839
What I meant is, if he came back as a heroic nice guy instead of Red Hood, he’d just be another Dick clone.

>>150461817
>Everyone liked him when he was a good kid, but no one wants him back just to be another Dick clone.
Nobody said anything about want Jason to go back to being a Dick clone you stupid cunt.

>>150461817
>Stop trying, retard. You’ve already lost.
Judd Winick and the twenty years of Red Hood say otherwise faggot.

>>150463093
Oh, and what exactly do you retard think he would be? Come on, it’s not hard to picture the opposite of Winick’s Jason, a boring, predictable, completely forgettable character just like Dick and Tim.
>>150463152
If anything, it’s the opposite. Every other clueless hack is trying to copy Loeb’s Jason, not Winick’s. They might jerk off to the idea of Jason as a villain, but they have no clue how Winick actually wrote him, and most of them just turn Jason into a complete joke, which is what pisses most people off.

>>150440993
>>150463680
Winick was the original turns Jason into a joke.

>>150463680
Winick made Jason a boring predictable character by omitting his prior character to make him into a generic edgy antihero who kills.

ok but what if the lazarus pit tf'd jason into a cute girl

>>150439554 (OP)
You fundamentally can't.
He's a walking reminder how retarded Batman's moral code is. No matter what you do with him, he serves as a reminder that capeshit morality is fucking stupid and is a thinly-veiled excuse to keep big name villains around.

>>150464369
Nigga, it’s coming books.

>>150463726
Original my ass. His performance in UtRH is still Jason at his most perfect form. Everything DC has done since is just pathetic in comparison.
>>150464304
Oh, so he’s just a generic antihero now? Even like that, he’s still more unique than Dick and Tim, since DC doesn’t really have many actual antiheroes.

>since DC doesn’t really have many actual antiheroes.
lmao, is this retard serious

>>150441182
You noticed that too, eh? At least in the animated film he’s actually holding an AK.

>>150464959
Name 20 B-list antiheroes in DC who aren’t just villains turned good or killing monsters and aliens. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

>>150460122
BTAS predated Cass by almost a decade. Steph didn't become Batgirl till the DCAU TV shows were dead and buried. Are you young or dumb or both?

>>150465052
Constantine
Spectre
Hawkman
Bronze Tiger
Jonah Hex
Manchester Black
Black Alice
Coldcast
Hitman
Wild Dog
Peacemaker
The Creeper
Vigilante (Adrian, Pat, Dorian)
Huntress (Helena)
Azrael (Jean-Paul, Michael)

That's before you start listing off the Wildstorm or Milestone characters.

>>He's a walking reminder how retarded Batman's moral code is
No, he's a reminder of Batman failing to protect him until he could stand up by himself.

>>150465404
Most of them aren’t even B-listers. Try again.

>>150465404
Got his ass

>>150464908
>His performance in UtRH is still Jason at his most perfect form.
Being a mope with daddy issues is Jason at his peak? Lmao

>>150465598
Do I need to remind you how often Jason outsmarts Batman? And it’s not just in UtRH, it’s every story Winick put him in.

>>150439554 (OP)
Reinvent him as a woman with borderline personality disorder.

>>150461912
>Strawman with daddy issues or broody goody-two-shoes with daddy issues
Grim. There is a lot more you could do with him but I guess fandom rather keep getting fifty shades of UTRH.
>>150464352
I would still want her to stay the fuck away from Batfam.

>>150465852
Meaningless when the end result is Jason crying like a bitch and looking like a failure because his life now revolves around Joker thanks to UTRH.

>>150439554 (OP)
>more timfag seething
lol
Lobdell's run gigamogs anything TimRobin was ever in btw

>>150461912
Jason stopped being a Dick clone as far back as Batman #408 in 1987, you retard.

>>150465404
>None of them are seeing much or any use
Yeah... Helena don't even fit on that list. Being willing to kill does not make you an anti-hero.

>>150467770
If you have a mental illness, sure.

>>150465909
They already have Harley Quinn.

>>150464369
>You fundamentally can't.
Skill issue.

Genuine question: what needs fixing?
I read all the fixes proposed in this thread and they're all nice ideas to mix things up, but I do not understand what fundamental problem is there to be fixed

For the record, Winnick was supposed to write RHATO, butthe editorial wasn't convinced with his pitch

>>150461362
>Jason would be cool with putting children through the same pain he went as a child
Winick’s fans are all retarded,

I'm surprised they never really leaned much on him being a Robin gone wrong except for guilt tripping Bruce once in a while, him becoming a hot brooding bad boy instead was weird
If you're gonna continue using Jason as a character, I'd have him open up an orphanage in Gotham to look out for kids who have no where else to go, and he can be a crimefighter with a focus on going after villains who target kids maybe

>>150469310
>DC never leaning on Jason being the bad Robin
>DC guilt tripping Batman about Jason instead of "you did all you could"
What parallel universe do you come from?

>>150468853
>horribly murder a man for disrespecting a hecking sex worker

Yeah, shutting that down was the right call.

>>150468853
This sounds like shit, but we knew Winick sucked ass as far back as his Batman and Robin issues where Jason was in prison.

>>150439554 (OP)
>Dick has Nightwing
>Tim has the main book
>Damian has Batman and Robin
>Jason has a canceled book
Grim

>>150467304
Yeah there’s a lot of good things you can do with him but there’s also bad things which is what you faggot want him to be.
>>150467744
So characters expressing their feelings is suddenly a bad thing now? Jason breaking down doesn’t make him weak, it makes him human. And if you’re gonna point fingers about his life revolving around Joker, blame Death in the Family, retard. That story is what made Joker the center of his trauma, not Winick or UtRH.

>>150439554 (OP)
Obligatory explanation. DC doesn't know what to do with him. After Flashpoint, they reset him into being the bad boy of the batfamily who still hangs out with them even if he acts like he hates it. While paradoxically butting heads with Bruce about his death & killing villains. Leading to actual fist fights between them. They can't let him kill any villains because then they can't use them to repeat the same story but worse again. They won't let him branch out from the batfamily or even be a villainous force against them again. It's not like he's a unique case of bad writing due to reinvention but Dick is a lot more flexible to fix. Tim's nothing & completely redundant to this day though. He's not even the team Robin anymore with DC trying to recreate the classic Teen Titans feel with Dick.

>>150471059
seems like DC doesn't know what to do with anyone