Thread 150455919

Have you read this book?
Tell me your opinion

>>150455919 (OP)
filthy dirty kike propaganda

Maus is a comic that makes you think it's just another holocaust memoir
It's actually a comic about Art dealing with the fact that his father experienced one of the worst historical atrocities and STILL came out a terrible person who's a walking Jewish stereotype

>>150455919 (OP)
Rat booba.

>>150455919 (OP)
Love it

>>150455919 (OP)

I have. I own it. It is interesting.
Like other people have said, it's rather fascinating because Spiegelman the elder is so clearly an unreliable narrator who's obviously coloring the story to make himself look good - and even in that "cleaned" version of the events he tells, he's such an inhuman, opportunistic, backstabbing, shyster piece of shit that it makes you wonder what IS the stuff he left out. Did he murder people? What is he hiding?

Anyway, it is cool. It is "nazis bad, holocaust bad, boo hoo" on the surface level but the fact that the "hero" is such an utter piece of shit actually warps the message enough to make it something unique.

>>150456661
>>150455960

>>150456661
>>150456871
It’s been decades since I’ve read it but wasn’t the point of it that him being a kike’s kike was what kept them alive

>>150455960
it's very good. it had me riveted. but why is that?
the gritty story mainly does the heavy lifting. which is basically a standard biography. the art is very simple too, not much expressiveness. all the characters are wearing simple animal masks.
>>150455960
.t Cat

>>150457240
I don't think so.
So many characters try to outjew the nazis and get immediately rekt.
Like one of the most memorable moments is when he goes "there goes the richest man I knew, I never saw him again, his money didn't save him."

>>150457240
That's a common theme in holocaust survival memoirs.

>>150455919 (OP)
The relationship between him and his dad was interesting. It all really makes me wonder about the mom. But that jerk burnt the journal so we'll never have her side of the story.

>>150458994
My own personal takeaway was that maybe Anja wrote some truths about Vladek that he had sought to hide and she wrote about it in her private book.
Collaboration, maybe? Working as an informant?
Could have been the guild of hiding that drove her to suicide. Would be doubly interesting and tragic if he didn't actually do so but something made her suspect that he did and that was enough.

>>150459479
I don't think it's too deep
I think her writing just made him sad and he didn't want it to come back ever again
Maybe she said some things about him he didn't like but I think over all it just reminded him too much of her and made him depressed to even have it on a shelf

>>150455919 (OP)
It is a story about an ungrateful piece of shit son treating his aging father like dirt while pretending to be interested in him so he can get more information about his dead mentally ill mother.

As you read the story, you will notice that the father is trying to reconcile with his son, you can tell this from the non-Nazi parts where he tries to make his son accept a gift, when he tries to make his son join him in a fairly normal bonding activity (but changes his mind when he discovers Art's other works, though he forgives him within the same day) and makes a point about Art being his heir.
You can also tell this from the Nazi parts, where the father often tries to make himself look good, and there is also parts where he talks about his own father, the though decisions he made to save his son, and the final heroic sacrifice he makes for his daughter, obviously he is trying to draw parallels.
It is a good story, the Nazi parts are tense and interesting, but the actual meat of the book is Art and his father, everything else is just there to draw you in.

>>150460162
Adding a bit more: Art's father already knows that it is pointless to make himself out to be a saint to his son. So he settles for being a complicated person with a heart in the right place. Notice that Art is in contact with many people who knew his father during these times and there is no clear case of anyone contradicting the story he tells about himself, so the "If he is willing to admit these things about himself, imagine all the stuff he isn't willing to admit!" line of reasoning is baseless.

On the gift: I am talking about the jacket stuff, he wants his son to accept a jacket because accepting a gift generally makes a person like someone more. Remember that Art's father made his living as a sly salesman in America.

>>150455919 (OP)
It's pretty good. Despite what controlled oposition like >>150455960 says it is anything but propaganda, if anything it is pretty damning of jewish character and sterotypes. But that's kinda the point with the book, it's a biography of what jewish people are before and after the genocide: just people. They arn't fictional saints and they can be assholes. Most of the book is just Art fighting with his father despite him not really wanting anything to do with his book. It's a parable of a jewish father and a jewish son from two different worlds trying to out jew eachother.

>>150455919 (OP)
Yeah, pretty good. One of the few books about the Holocaust that portrays jews in a negative light.

>>150455960
FPBP
/thread.

>>150455919 (OP)
>mice are filthy infestative beasts
>cats need to eat and work to keep their homes clean
>I'm supposed to side with the mice

>>150456661
Ya that was my take away. His dad was an absolute piece of shit and its sad that hes one of the lnes that made it out.

>>150461064
lmao you make it sound like he's irredeemably evil or something, he's just like any regular guy.

>>150455919 (OP)
It unironically made me hate Jews.

>>150456776
Ah yes, the three levels of Maus analysis:

Layer 1: a story about surviving the Holocaust
Layer 2: a story about a son and his dad
Layer 3: furry porn

The 2008 edition of Art Speigelman's Breakdown is a great Coda to Maus.
It has thought processes and his non-Maus experimentation and just a little bit about growing up with two deeply traumatised people.

>>150461161
This was made prior to Maus and is based on stories his father told him.
This be is different in the recording the Valdek gave Issak (art) in the 80s.

I find the scene where the dad tries to return the half opened box of cereal hilarious, because of how surreal and over the top it is in its kikery.

>>150461188
We were spared Breér Rabbit and the Klu Klux Kats.

>>150461208
This is why people didn't start talking about the Holacaust in pop-culture till the late 80s and 90s. It was starting to go from living memory and the main body of survivors were beginning to die off.

The Complete Maus (Penguin, 2003) (digi-Hybrid) (fylgja).cbz
https://mega.nz/file/ToAilbZA#iugYtYYR6RKUd63aVhY8MzZAODbzLvwZQalRjBgW3Es

Breakdowns - Portrait of the Artist as a Young %@&! (2008) (c2c) (tintin777).cbr
https://mega.nz/file/2ohz0AqS#1LpWnhZzXgljV3n-fd_BgE2-E3Ww7th-XIhyVpnBox4

>>150461222
Before this thread devolves, I think the core of the issue regarding the representation of the holacaust is that in the media's attempt to solidify the event into historical memory they have intwined theatrics and dramatisation which has led to myths. But because it is such an horrific event, you can't tackle those myths without stepping on toes, which results in people who then assume if you can't tackle those myths that must mean it is all a myth despite the death toll we know at the very minimum is 3 million, with 5.6 to 6 million through the archived population records from 1930 through to 1940 that show a drop in jewish dominated areas prior to pogroms and mass executions.

>>150461312
What "myths"?

>despite the death toll we know at the very minimum is 3 million

It's 5.1 million minimum.

>>150455919 (OP)
It's easy to understand why it made such a splash in a capeshit-infested market.
>>150460515
>if anything it is pretty damning of jewish character and sterotypes.
Good thing that nobody here reads comics. Would be a shame for them to discover Eisner's works.

>>150461355
>It's 5.1 million minimum
So what you’re telling me is that it’s 6.6 million minimum?

>>150461400
The death toll has been estimated to be in range of just over five to almost six million since the first postwar censuses were completed in 1946.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angap03.asp

>>150455919 (OP)
I have, but I was like twelve years old. A friend's older brother had it, and I stayed up all night reading it during a sleepover. I don't remember thinking much about it all, dunno what was so interesting about it it was worth staying up for.

>>150455960
FPBP

>>150461355
>What "myths"?
Mostly camp related stuff, things such as unusual methods of executions for instance.

>>150461415
>It's 5.1 million minimum.
In terms of what is hard documented, 3 million is the minimum. 5 million plus requires non-hard documented sources which is why I included population records as that is where the consensus is largely built on. The nazis recorded up to 3 million murders, but nothing more than that. I am not saying there wasn't more, but it's important to understand where these numbers come from or /pol/tards will hyperfixate and throw the baby out with the bath water.

>>150461441
Kys troon

>>150455919 (OP)
I chuckled when Vladek went on a racist rant over Art giving a black hitchhiker a ride. Just because they were victims, doesn't mean they were saints or martyrs.

I like to think the Maus universe had jews make up hokey stories about giant glue and mousetraps, just like we got shit like the Holocauster, and the milking machine.

>>150455919 (OP)
I have not read it yet, but on a similar theme I have read pic related which I thought was excellent. Probably one of the most cinematic quality comics I've ever read with a theme of "What's a Jew in Nazi occupied Europe to do?" and the central character's answer being a lot of highly dubious morality but which surely saved his life. Joanovici is certainly no hero but I think it does a good job of making you wonder if you wouldn't do the same in his situation.

>>150461118
>he's just like any regular guy.

No he's not. He drove his wife to suicide and burned her diaries, that alone should tell you he's not a "regular guy". That's if you somehow missed the million scenes where he screws over other people for personal gain, tries to return opened cereal packs to the store etc. Nothing he does is normal. One of the very first parts of his story is how he rejected some woman because her family wasn't wealthy enough, like what kind of a psycho has THAT as the reason? Vladek Spiegelman, that's who.

It's THE graphic novel.
Technically alone it's one of the greatest comics ever made. Art knows how to do comics, so much so, that I used to call him a comic Autist, actually his comics making is more of a obsessive-compulsive disorder though.
Just look at these attempts at getting that panes right, and these are only a few of the countless variations he made, because he just couldn't get it right. Actually all of them are fine of course.

As other people already said, it's not only the story of a a holocaust survivor, but also the story of a father and a son.
Here's an example of the extraordinary skill of Art when it comes to doing layouts for comics.
Do you see how the exercise bike forms the layout of the page, do you get how the front wheel in the last panel performs this kinda swirly, timeline switching cut you see in movies?

>>150455919 (OP)
I have oy vey fatigue. At some point it no longer matters what really happened or what beliefs you hold. You just get tired of the constant presence and repetition of something.

>>150455919 (OP)
>Holocaust survivor is a complete piece of shit

>>150463469
>>150463374
Here's another example.
The shot through the window on the top of the pages foreshadows the panel layout of the rest of the page.

>>150463469 (You)
>>150463374
Here's another example.
The shot through the window on the top of the pages foreshadows the panel layout of the rest of the page.

>>150462744
>Vladek went on a racist rant over Art giving a black hitchhiker a ride.

/his/ was right again

>>150455919 (OP)
Read it, got the impression that the old man wasn't a very good person
Didn't really change my mind on anything, but otherwise interesting from a visual and narrative perspective
It has this weird suicidal tangent mini comic splashed in the middle that I barely understood at the time

>>150460407
Funny, to me the episode with the jacket is an example of how little Vladek understands the person that is his son.

>>150455960
Nah, but the 21st century has made it age badly.

>>150458558
>>150457240
Primo Levi's books say the same.

>>150463625
>got the impression that the old man wasn't a very good person

That's why he survived

>>150460957
This. If IRL people like cats and hate rodents, then the allegory failed. Maybe if it had been rabbits like Watership Down.

>>150463508
Fun fact: Israel fucking hated survivors that went on to become citizens because the Israeli goverment was an actual supportive voice for the Nazi regime. No joke. They even denied expatriation of jews offered to them by the Nazi regime to help with their pushing out of arab native populations prior to Germans enacting the mass murder.

>>150463701
>They even denied expatriation of jews offered to them by the Nazi regime

Did you really just forget the part where Israel wasn't an independent country until 1948?

>>150463469
Is this Yiddish or German?

>>150463731
German

>>150455919 (OP)
Pretty good book
>Father is an actual Holocaust survivor
>Embodies every stereotypical things people hate about Jew
>Is racist toward other races for some reason
>At his core he is still just a man trying to do his best to survive and help his family

>>150455919 (OP)

Vladek seems like he would post on /pol/ if he were still alive.

>>150455919 (OP)
It's a great read, and it taught me at a young age that someone could experience hell on Earth, only to survive and still be a pretty bad person. This applies to literally everyone, by the way.

>>150463697
>>150460957
Cats also slaughter billions of birds, lizards, insects, and mammals a year because they're an invasive species. You can't blatantly shit on one and forget how bad the other one can be.

>>150463831
>it taught me at a young age that someone could experience hell on Earth, only to survive and still be a pretty bad person.
I believe this book should be mandatory reading, if only to teach kids this.

>>150463750
>>Is racist toward other races for some reason

It's common for minority groups upon coming to the states to immediately shit on who they perceive to be the lower class when it comes to race. It's funny to see Indian people complain about a sudden rise in racism (which isn't a good thing) against them while also being racist towards black people. Aren't they aware that white racists hate them more than black people currently?

>>150463870
>white racists hate them more than black people currently?
There isn't a single "racist" group, anon.
People are racist against different races depending on their interactions with people of different races.

>>150455919 (OP)
Yeah.
It was alright.

>>150463701
Lies and misinformation.

>>150463870

My Holocaust survivor great grandmother hated nigs because the store she ran kept getting robbed by them. It got to the point in the 70s where she somehow got hold of an M16 rifle and kept it loaded under the register.

>>150463678
It is a clumsy and forced gesture.

>>150463371
You sound extremely sheltered.

>>150463831
>someone could experience hell on Earth, only to survive and still be a pretty bad person
>>150456661
>his father experienced one of the worst historical atrocities and STILL came out a terrible person
That doesn't sound contradictory at all. People who experience trauma are likely to get mentally fucked up and become difficult to deal with. If this guy was always an inherently shitty person anyway, it makes sense that he would've taken the events of the war as justification to be even more shitty instead of reflecting on humanity, decency and himself as a person.

I once read some self-biography of a concentration camp survivor. Can't remember the name of the book anymore, but I remember loathing the author. The way he described his activities during the war, he sounded like ruthless opportunistic dick who was constantly looking for opportunities to screw other people over.
Still, I can understand why a guy like that would be hardened enough to survive in conditions where weaker men will perish. If that author and Vladek had not been jerks, maybe there never would've been any books about their lives in the first place.

>>150464207
You sound extremely Jewish

>>150460162
They're both shitty people.
Art is trying to profit off of his father's trauma, while Vladek is trying to force his son to see him as the person he sees himself as.
But in my opinion it is precisely this conflict that makes the novel so compelling.

>>150464241
You're not helping you case

>>150463870
Dont forget their hatred of lower castes indians that they actually want to brong back into law

>>150464306
Indian self-rule is the only argument we need for the return of Empire.

>>150455919 (OP)
The best part was when Art is like, "Pop, did any of that really happen?" and he goes, "Of course not. Do you understand how long it would take to cremate so many people? I made this up for attention." Then he dies.

>>150464459
And yet people like >>150455960 still think it's propaganda because it doesn't show up in his ultra right-wing Telegram channels.

>>150463893
I hate black culture. I don't hate black people but I hate players of a broken game designed to keep people ignorant and violent.

>>150456661
Not everyone that survives trauma comes out a better person for it, it seems like Vladek's experience made him go full selfish survivor mentality amplifying his already negative traits leaving him a bundle of neuroses once the rat race ended.

>>150460957
You do realize that he specifically chose the mouse/cat dichotomy with intention, right?

>>150455919 (OP)
I know it's sad the author's father lost his wife and son but holy shit what an absolute trash human, Like genuinely what a fucked up guy from start to finish, Him burning the writings of the author's mom is one of the most beyond upsetting things ever

read it repeatedly as a child before I was redpilled. I did eventually pick up on the main point being Art rather than the holocaust, but I usually wrote present Vladek's antics off as behaviour from a kooky old man, besides the burning of the diaries. Even then I was too young to appreciate the moment properly.
I'd like to re-read it now.
I might also have Metamaus sitting around somewhere

>>150464716
There could be a million reasons to incinerate your wife's deepest thoughts

>

>>150464918
The french are such posers.

>>150464940
It's actually about Spain

>>150459479
I feel like things happened to her when they were separated in the camps she never got over and he didn't want anyone to know. And also that yeah, he was a shit, although I doubt it was collaborator level.

I don't get it..

>>150465795
Vladek is doing that parent thing where they try to send something home with you that you don't want and they refuse to take the hint. His reticence to waste food is due to trauma from the Holocaust (but also because he's just a massive cheapskate).

>>150461415
Such a shame they killed a minimum of 7.5 million

>>150461176
>>150461208
One of Valdek’s cousins crops up a lot in the second volume of Maus.
He was the one who Valdek credits with him surviving the camp and the final death marches. That cousin is blatantly a hustler.
He might be one of the men playing Gin Rummy and the one in the ghetto police. But no names are attached.

>>150463729
So? The Zionist "back to Israel" project goes back a lot further than that.

Jews have endured so much yet they still are here. Maybe there are things that we can learn from them.

>>150468109
So have the Native Americans. That that does not kill you makes you stronger?

>>150455919 (OP)
Holocaust fan fiction. The cats are the good guys. If you had a rat infestation, you'd gas them too.

>>150468420
All these Anons who think they'd be the cats, in a Maus thread, yet.

>>150468623
anons would have already died in aktion t4

>>150468109
Bro they've engaged in 9 different wars since Oct 7th. I think the problem is that they don't learn lessons in not constantly being violent sociopaths

>>150455919 (OP)
>Have you read this book?
>Tell me your opinion

Its ok.

The real story is that dude's dad is a sociopath or narcissist that drove his mother to suicide. The father we see in real life and the one in the stories are so completely different.

No one talks about this and its the most interesting thing about the book. The father is probably an evil person that got other jews killed for his own gain.

>>150457240
>It’s been decades since I’ve read it but wasn’t the point of it that him being a kike’s kike was what kept them alive

The dad is so much more than a Mike's like. He very well probably was what drove the writer's mom to suicide.

Its like how all dad figures in John K's cartoons make John K's real dad look like a sociopath

>>150464233
>That doesn't sound contradictory at all. People who experience trauma are likely to get mentally fucked up and become difficult to deal with.

The dad was a pile of shit before ww2 was even rolling along. This is made clear in the stories about the girl he dated before dude's mom and how he conned the mom and her family.

Dude was literally a nobody and some how conned his way into running part of some dude's business and fucking his daughter.

The dad was a conman before being a jew. Its a shame normal jews died and that manipulative sack of turds lived