Thread 150747168

Some of us have heard the term "Great American Novel" before, but what would you say is the Great American COMIC?

I would guess either picrel or Peanuts.

Calvin and Hobbes, easily.

>>150747168 (OP)
Alan Moore is British but I guess it counts since it was first published in America. TDKR is up there. I think Charles Burns' Black Hole is incredible

>what is the great American comic
>posts a Brit’s work

>>150747168 (OP)
The answer would more likely be a strip than an issue comic. Peanuts and >>150747208 are both good candidates. I wanna say the original college era of Doonesbury.

>>150747168 (OP)
Amazing Spider-Man from its debut to Annual #21

>>150747168 (OP)
Watchmen's a good pick, except it's a British comic.
I won't put newspaper strips under "novel".
Let me think about it.

Nobody's written one yet

>>150747168 (OP)
>Some of us have heard the term "Great American Novel" before
The average 4chan user couldn't name three of them.

American Splendor?

>>150747168 (OP)
Watchmen is so vastly overrated when it comes to seeing it as a piece of literature. Every Moore comic is. Im genuinely so sick of seeing it because it reflects poorly on the medium when it’s held up as some intelligent, intellectually stimulating, genre-defining work.

>>150747571
Is that the miller-drawn annual? Cause that shit is fire.

>>150747972
>Watchmen is so vastly overrated
>it reflects poorly on the medium
What would you say is better then?

>>150747972
>Is that the miller-drawn annual? Cause that shit is fire
That's 14. 21 is the wedding issue

>>150747168 (OP)
Love and Rockets, Maus, American Splendor, Fun Home, Cages, Donald Duck
>>150747972
Very funny to be shitting on Watchmen and then be so impressed with a Spider-man annual issue.

>what if superheroes were assholes
Wow this says a lot about America

>>150747168 (OP)
>what would you say is the Great American COMIC?

>>150747972
>when it’s held up as some intelligent, intellectually stimulating, genre-defining work.
Nobody with more than half a brain is saying that. But people with taste simply recognize it for being what it is—a great comic. I'd say at the very least, it DOES define the capeshit genre.

>>150748083
>Very funny to be shitting on Watchmen and then be so impressed with a Spider-man annual issue
He's right though. Navel gazing shit like Watchmen is not what comics should aspire to be. I don't hate it at all but it's overrated as hell and Moore's politics really aren't mind blowing onec you're past your late twenties. Solid adventure stories with kino art though? Much more admirable and interesting route for comics and especially capeshit

>>150748110
Nta but you are being completely disingenuous if you think that green text doesn't capture how casuals and comics media hype up Watchmen

>>150748110
Watchmen doesn't define the capeshit genre because it's a subversion of it.

>>150747168 (OP)
People overrate this book. Easy to follow whodunit plot. Let's see...
>Silk
non-character
>Blue cuck
boring
>Nerd
Boring
>Evil nerd
Boring

There are two good characters in this book, three if you liked the original Silk Spectre.

Swamp Thing Saga is better. I can name 5 Alan Moore books that are better.

>>150748153
>you are being completely disingenuous
>>>/r/eddit

>>150748160
You do realize that in order to subvert something, you have to be able to define it first, right? Watchmen is basically a negative space from which you can draw the same whole picture.

>>150748153
There are several factors that make it overrated.
>Art
Gibbons is by far one of the most conventional Moore artists.
>Plot
Easy-to-follow mystery plot.
>Commentary
Topical and not as overwhelming or subtle as his other works.
>Characters
They are mostly simple characters.

It's a 9/10 comic, but it's not the comic. People go crazy for it because it's a superhero story.

>>150748083
>Maus
Maus feels likely, it won a Pulitzer

>>150748245
That's like saying thirst is the definition of water.

>>150748083
>then be so impressed with a Spider-man annual issue
This just tells me you’re a casual. The miller annual with Denny O’Neil is one of the best single issues of all time.

>>150747972
You know somebody is a pseud when they say this

>>150748083
Fun Home is a snoozefest. Cages is British.

>>150748099
Probably, yeah.

Google what words mean before speaking.
All great American novels are from 1950 or before, as such only comics before 1960 or before can count.
Oops! They don't exist or aren't considered great because capeshit took over. So no one reads Westerns or Thunda just DC Marvel black tranny hero of the week.

>>150749700
>only comics before 1960 or before can count
Little Nemo, Popeye

>>150749700
>All great American novels are from 1950 or before, as such only comics before 1960 or before can count.

What about Gravity's Rainbow? Infinite Jest?

>>150749700
Black tranny stories do encapsulate the soul of modern America.

>>150749920
Do you honestly believe anyone here reads anything but genre fiction?

>>150747289
It was published by an American company, mainly targeted at Americans, set in America, about American politics and culture.

>>150750022
I mostly read non-narrative non-fiction.

>>150750238
Rare exception.

>>150748099
yeah was coming to post this
not even my fav Don Rosa comic but still

>>150747972
Watchmen is a terrific comic, not a great work of literature. It uses literary devices and cinematic devices to enhance the story and characters, but deep down it's a Silver Age comic book tale.

>>150748083
>>150748099
American Splendor and Scrooge McDuck might actually be it.

>>150748083
>Love and Rockets
This.

>>150747168 (OP)
Okay now what's the Great American CARTOON?

>>150747168 (OP)
The best runs of Spider-Man, Superman, or Batman would be better candidates for "the Great American comic" than Watchmen. I think Alan Moore would agree too.
>>150747571
>Amazing Spider-Man from its debut to Annual #21
Like this is a good answer.

>>150752119
I don't think so. Those are extremely hit or miss serialized stories. When I think of a great novel, its high quality permeates the entire work.
>I think Alan Moore would agree too.
I highly doubt it. He had a fondness for these older comics at one point, but I don't think he was ever under this delusion that they were truly great works of fiction, aside from maybe his early childhood. Once the kid in him died, he outright rejected comics being considered as "graphic novels". For good or ill, comics are comics.
There was also that famous quote in which he said something like "Comics still don't have a masterpiece" sometime in the 90s.
Harlan Ellison would probably agree, though likely with a tinge of sardonicism.

>>150752104
Gonna be honest, Schoolhouse Rock

>>150752335
I disagree. Moore put his heart into those books. It wasn't just a cash grab. You guys place too much value on his statements. Remember that every time he makes a statement during the launch of a new project...

>>150752448
>Moore put his heart into those books. It wasn't just a cash grab.
You lost me.

>>150752562
Moore fans are a lot like Lynch fans. They go on about how these guys are above everyone else, but they don't believe they can be sincere.

>>150752335
>I highly doubt it. He had a fondness for these older comics at one point, but I don't think he was ever under this delusion that they were truly great works of fiction, aside from maybe his early childhood. Once the kid in him died, he outright rejected comics being considered as "graphic novels". For good or ill, comics are comics.
Well I wasn't assuming "Great American Comic" implied anything other than being good at being a comic. It's not competing as fiction with Moby Dick. Something like Spider-Man is a perfect representation of what people love about superhero comics.

So I agree he wouldn't call it deep or mature fiction, but he does have a fondness for it for what it is.
>There was also that famous quote in which he said something like "Comics still don't have a masterpiece" sometime in the 90s.
This is a good point though, I might be wrong about Moore with that quote in mind. I suppose it depends on what "Great American Comic" means to people.

>>150747168 (OP)
Doesn’t this book poke fun at America a lot? And it was written by a pro communist Brit? Doesn’t seem very American to me

>>150752616
Nationalism is gay

>>150752591
I think we're talking about two different things.
>>150752600
I see. In that case, Moore did respect and appreciate the work Kirby and Ditko did in the Silver Age. He liked his John Stanley and Curt Swan.
I'd argue something like Watchmen is still a better candidate because I find it more entertaining, and find myself revisiting it a lot more than any of those other ones. It's also a great example of a full-assed effort at making as good a comic book as possible. Main problem is it's not American.

>>150753026
>It's also a great example of a full-assed effort at making as good a comic book as possible.
Yeah that makes sense. As a self-contained story it's a better choice.
>Main problem is it's not American.
Though of course this disqualifies it as the GAC lol

>>150752647
Blind nationalism is gay.

>>150753723
National identity is bullshit. You can have your community identity, which is why so many people are proud to be “east coast” or “west coast” even more than they are proud of their national identity.

>>150752647
Even so, a bonger shouldn't get credit for writing the "great american" everything, even if he is basically correct about the US.

>>150752104
BTAS

>>150752104
Looney Tunes obviously. If that doesn't count because it's a bunch of different shorts, then Snow White.

get fuzzy

>>150747168 (OP)
Dick Tracy

>>150753753
Wrong.

>>150747168 (OP)
Frankly the idea that Watchmen could even be considered as such should be an embarrassment for comics as a whole.

>>150748160
It's not a subversion of it, it's a direct reflection of the comics landscape of the time. Guys like Punisher were already making enough waves around that time to inspire The Comedian, and Dr. Manhatten is just taking stuff like Superman #247 to its logical conclusion. Watchmen was basically saying "comics should move away from this edgy schlock taking over the industry, so they can tell actually compelling stories with new techniques". But nobody actually understood that so DC latched on to the edgy shlock anyway.

>>150753780
I wanted to say that but the wackiness made that answer a bit off. I'd also say the Peanuts animated shorts could be a good answer.

>>150754641
>Manhatten
Opinion discarded.

>>150747168 (OP)
Daredevil Born Again

>>150752616
several novels considered the "Great American Novel" highlight flaws in American society

>>150747168 (OP)
depends if you want a graphic novel/limited series, a ongoing comic book series/specific run, or a comic strip.

>>150755421
Which of those is most comparable to a novel?

>>150747168 (OP)
>I Shall Destroy All the Civilized Planets! by Fletcher Hanks
>Rip Kirby/Flash Gordon by Al Williamson
>Prince Valiant by Hal Foster
>Star Wars: Dark Times or Tales of the Jedi
>Heavy Liquid by Paul Pope
>American Virgin by Steven T. Seagle
>Kill Six Billion Demons Book Four by Tom Parkinson-Morgan
>Murder Drones: Official Comic
>Hard Boiled by Frank Miller
>Fear Agent/Tokyo Ghost by Rick Remender
>100 Bullets by Brian Azzarello
Idk you tell me.

>>150748310
I'd argue that what makes it such a seminal comic is that out of all of Moore's work it plays with the medium the most. It's his most detail-laden book by far.

>>150755400
which ones?

Criteria for being considered a Great American Novel:
>It must encompass the entire nation and not be too consumed with a particular region
>It must be democratic in spirit and form
>Its author must have been born in the United States or have adopted the country as his or her own
>Its true cultural worth must not be recognized upon its publication

Watchmen is disqualified for not being American and acclaimed on release

>>150755933
Guess 90% of superhero comics are out of the running for the fourth note alone.

Is A History of Violence a good answer?

>>150755933
Did you just make these up? lol

>>150756162
History of Violence isn't a very good comic.

American Splendor, maybe

>>150756234
No, I looked up the criteria for what constitutes the Great American Novel. That's what Wikipedia says. Of course, there is all kinds of debate about even the very concept.
If you're going to debate what constitutes the "Great American Comic", it helps to have some actual criteria.

>>150747168 (OP)
>Great American COMIC
no such thing

>>150752335
>he outright rejected comics being considered as "graphic novels".
Most aren't, but he proved that some are.

>>150755776
Hard rain falling
Moby Dick
The Scarlet Letter

Alan Moore LOVES Superman

>>150747168 (OP)
After some thought, Little Orphan Annie
It is the closest thing America has produced to Dickens
Li'l Abner might also qualify with its satire and observation of American culture

>>150756589
>Little Orphan Annie
How did you read it?

>>150757019
I bought some of the books IDW put out

>>150747377
>>150747208
Pogo's pretty good

Superman is an American Icon

>>150747168 (OP)
Sandman.

>>150757344
No.

>>150747377
>The answer would more likely be a strip
Why? It's interesting how some of you have been brainwashed into thinking strips are high brow, the comics journal really did a number on you. It's like if you believe the great american novel is Harry Potter.

>>150756578
He always seemed like a Batman guy to me

>>150755933
Again, Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck.

What NoveL?

>>150758935
Again, no.

Popeye IS the quintessential American comic

>>150747168 (OP)
This one.

>>150755933
Pretty nonsensical, Steinbeck was very popular in his lifetime

>>150755933
People here have said that Watchmen wasn't all that acclaimed when it came out.

>>150747289
There's nothing more American than being Britain's leftovers.

>>150755609
His most detail-laden comic is probably Top Ten, but the details don't really feed the narrative as much they help fill in the world and provoke a chuckle or two.

>>150755776
Blood Meridian
To Kill a Mockingbird
The Great Gatsby

>>150762055
It dominated the awards circuit while being published. It's still the only comic to ever win a HUGO award.
It pushed DC ahead of Marvel in sales for the period it was being published
Watchmen, along with Dark Knight, basically created the evergreen TPB market. Book stores started devoting space to "graphic novels" in response

>>150755933
by that logic it would either be The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck or Bone

>>150747168 (OP)
It's Garfield. There's nothing more American than Garfield, up to and including becoming corporate merchandising soulless slop.

>>150747168 (OP)
It's Peanuts

>>150747168 (OP)
I FUCKING LOVE WATCHMEN BEST COMIC BOOK EVEEEERRRR

We are the Americans now.

>>150763185
It's pretty great.

>>150748918
Watchmen is peak pseud comic.

>>150762450
>>150756502
>all bad books whose legacy is propped up by the education system; 99% of people only know them because they were forced to read them in school
if you had said Fahrenheit 451 I would've given you at least some credit.

>>150764248
>Blood Meridian
>propped up by the education system
Farenheit 451 is also very commonly assigned in schools, but you're an idiot who doesn't know anything

>>150753753
>Nation
in the American sense traditionally meant individual States. you were a Virginian or a Arizonan or a New Yorker before you were an 'American'. the concept of 'American' was more seen in line with New World vs Old World.

>>150764263
which is why I said "some credit". rather than saying it was a definitive counter example. for someone who supposedly loves literature, your literacy is seriously lacking.

>>150764302
you are welcome to your opinions but you're still a drooling moron whose words are a waste of the pixels they occupy on my screen

>>150764335
I will take your inability to articulate why you disagree as a concession that you can't find anything factually incorrect with my statement.

>>150764370
why would I engage with someone who thinks a book is bad because he hated being forced to read it in high school

>>150764406
if that's all you took from my post, you are not intelligent enough to participate in this conversation.

>>150764446
>duhhhhhhh hurrrrrrrrr bbuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh
stop drooling all over your keyboard

>>150764191
Normies, pseuds, idiots, and smart people all like Watchmen. It's peak comic, period.

>>150764468
lol

>>150760108
Meets all those needed terms

>>150764461
you don't need to describe what you're doing

>>150764548
Gotteem

>>150755609
The most detail-driven is LOEG. Because Kevin is the only artist who can pack in all the references that Moore asks for.

>>150764468
Based.

>>150754641
>an example of the medium at its finest, both in its execution and its craft is an embarrassment because... uhhh IT JUST IS, OKAY
People like you need to die so humanity can finally start making progress again.

>>150747168 (OP)
Krazy Kat or Prince Valiant for strips
Not sure for comics.

>>150767486
How are strips like novels?

>>150757965
>Why? It's interesting how some of you have been brainwashed into thinking strips are high brow
It's not about being high brow it's about having an impact on American culture. Most comic books tend to be much more niche.

>>150767486
Prince Valiant is based on Arthurian lore, there's nothing American about it aside from being made here

>>150764468
true

>>150747168 (OP)
She is

>>150768936
Scholasticslop.

>>150747168 (OP)
It doesn't exist yet.

The problem with Watchmen are the characters.

>>150760712
That would definitely be a first pick for me. I would also suggest Eisner's Contract with God trilogy. Eisner also has historical importance as someone who bridged the gap between the newspaper comic strips he honed his craft in and the graphic novel format he pioneered.

watchmen isn't even good. I'm glad people started actually critically viewing it in recent years.

>>150748099
>>150760201
>>150763042
>>150768936
>>150771761
Most likely answers imo

>>150771808
It's great.

>>150747208
I would say that's a good candidate.
>>150747168 (OP)
Honestly the problem is that you can't really capture "america" without some region being unless you make a roadtrip/odyssey kind of deal. Though an anthology feels like a cop out.
I'd rather have a more regional comic than something poorly grasping at everything trying to be "The American."
Not to mention the internet has eaten so much community, most people assume everyone is about just like them other than superficial stuff like "you eat more/less/grosser stuff than me" or "wow THEIR politics are crazy!". It's going to be harder and harder for a writer to get at the heart of America (or any region for that matter) on purpose rather than the echo chamber they've chosen to inhabit. Maybe the Amish will save us, who knows.

>>150771979
naw. overrated

>>150772180
you dont understand the term "great american novel". Protip: hemingway constantly wrote about expats

>>150747377
Doonesbury is liberal propaganda. Always hated it.

>>150772184
I think it's great. I go back to it every so often.

>>150767540
They aren't, just replying to OP's Peanuts point.
>>150768819
True

>>150772203
I'm not saying that being engrossed by the internet is some sort of way of being an expat. I'm saying that it's an inherit clash of culture. Or at least another layer of making one. I was using the physical road-trip analogy (well, really, I just meant road trip) because most wouldn't really judge a character to be "American" now unless the geography is brought up. Usually it's generational (zoomer v boomer), or about internet influencers ("Wait, you defend/reposted [X]'s statements?"). Even when people on the internet espouse their homeland, I at least just judge them if they are funny or not. Why waste time on your* influences and history when I can just eat up the stimuli you dish out?
And another reason I think regionalism should be leaned on more, is because most americans (through the lens of internet) see different regions through a political or economic grouping. If you can't get a region you live in right, how are you going to capture the other ones?
*The hypothetical people who bring up their country, not you anon, I don't know how well that translates in text.

>>150760201
Correct.

Crazy pitch, but the complete Hate run (even if it's technically ongoing). It's one of the most in depth, generation spanning character studies I can think of.

Also, Watchmen is so fucking good. In 12 single issues you get:

Complete alternate reality world building
Thorough character lore
A genuinely good mystery
A complete, coherent story with a beginning, middle and and (you can't take that for granted at this point)
A masterclass in the potential that comics uniquely hold for making text, art and page layouts intertwine to enhance the story

I try to read it once a year. Every time I do, something new pops out at me. I feel like there's a shell game going on where if you pay too much attention to one single element of the comic, you miss out on three more happening simultaneously. I have no problem calling it the best comic ever written, in the sense that the Rolling Stones are the best rock band, Godfather is the best movie, etc. Like, it's a boring answer, but it's not entirely wrong.

>>150762077
/co/ is the worthy board still.

about the comicbooks

I will say Garfiled like this guy:

Stop and think about after these 100 years of comicbook. If we have to choose one that has something to every single reader and no reader will be Garfield. >>150762714

>>150762714
>becoming corporate merchandising soulless slop
which was its intended goal in the first place

>>150747208
No, Peanuts goes before that.

>>150747168 (OP)
If by “great American” you mean Americana, then Peanuts is the best choice. But the phrase “Great American Novel” has been applied to a bunch of racial and gender theory garbage that has a completely different meaning.

>>150747168 (OP)
Bone

>>150756502
got a third the way through the scarlet letter. am I supposed to sympathize with Hester? idk, seems like she got off pretty easy with having to wear a patch.

>>150747168 (OP)
What so important about this comic series, anyway?

>>150771979
It's a pretty great comic when you're a young adult but then you get older and realize it's only marginally less silly than a superhero book for kids.

A lot of these answers are comics that don't really end.

>>150747571
>>150752119
I would specifically say that it's the Ditko run, but maybe it could include Romita as well

>>150779013
I'm aware of all that. It's still great.

>>150748132
Watchmen is not navelgazing. The only aspect close to that is the Doctor Manhattan chapter, but that chapter is amazing.
>>150748751
It's not that good. Worth it for the Miller/Palmer art, but that's really it.

>>150758289
Really? I don't think Moore dislikes Batman, but in For the man who has everything, Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow and Swamp Thing Batman usually comes off as well meaning but out of his depth, which is actually a grounded depiction considering even someone with the pinnacle of current human intellect and knowledge would be out of step if they came across supernatural problems.
More directly written in the short Clayface story Moore did and TKJ he comes off more put together, but still not faultless.

His most flattering depiction of Batman I think was Professor Night in Supreme: Story of the Year, but that was more in line with Silver Age superheroes where everyone was just that good.

>>150758289
Considering that the only two Batman stories Moore wrote focus more on his villains (Joker and Clayface) and Batman is even an antagonist in Moore’s Swamp Thing, I’m curious why you would think this.

>>150772233
Yeah, it's just a shitty, cheap political strip.

>>150772233
>>150781956
The older years that take place in college have little to none of the political rambling the comic has now, and at the time it was one of the more realistic and grounded comics out there.

>>150748099
>>150760712
These.

>>150766834
>an example of the medium at its finest
You don't read much at all if you think that's the case.

>>150754641
>Watchmen was basically saying "comics should move away from this edgy schlock taking over the industry, so they can tell actually compelling stories with new techniques".
That came years later after he grew bored of writing edgy superhero stories and embittered by all his bad deals. Here he is promoting Killing Joke in 1987
https://www.tcj.com/the-alan-moore-interview-118/
>Now, regarding Batman, for example, I suppose you could say that is traditionally a children’s comic book character. At the same time, me and Brian Bolland have got a graphic novel coming out sometime early next year, I believe, which is certainly just as disturbing a portrayal as in Dark Knight. Maybe even more so. I mean, there are some scenes in there I found quite horrific. Now, I suppose that if you feel aesthetically that that is an inappropriate way of doing the character, that’s fair enough, obviously you’re entitled to your opinion. But, in my opinion, that what’s happened with Batman over the last ten years, can’t clearly be labeled as a children’s character, has not been portrayed exclusively as a children’s character over the past ten years. There have been attempts to give him adult edges, and sort of make him like that, which has not gone amiss with marketplace or with the company. DC has not caught Minnie Mouse with Batman, you know. Whereas I personally at the moment have no great desire to do super-heroes again, while I was doing that particular book, DC seemed to be happy with what I was doing, I was happy with what I was doing, Brian was happy with what I was doing, and then there were the readers who liked it.

>>150747168 (OP)
Excellent bait.

>>150784652
list some examples, then, lilbro

>>150785666
Idiot.

>>150784849
I mean, even in that interview he's plainly stating that stuff like TKJ isn't exactly new, and that Batman has been reveling in edginess for a decade by that point. If anything TKJ feels more like it's reiterating on what he started in Watchmen.

>>150788640
He wasn't indicting them, he was happy enough to join with them. His Twilight of the Superheroes pitch also from 1987 was ultra-edgy.

Saying Watchmen is just okay and isn't even good is like walking into the Sistine Chapel and saying "Meh, there's better chapels out there. If you think this is a great chapel ceiling painting you're a pleb." Like it's just laughable ego stroking and blatantly untrue

Superheros just work better in animation I'm sorry.

>>150789341
>His Twilight of the Superheroes pitch also from 1987 was ultra-edgy.
No it wasn't. It was edgy by your standards because you're a weak-ass manchild.

>>150789753
They only work in comic books. It's always a step down when they're animated.

>>150790734
Paul Dini's Batman is the most famous version sorry

>>150747168 (OP)
Pick rel.

>>150790801
This. Or pic rel.

>>150789660
It's telling how bad superhero comics are that you rate Watchmen higher then "barely readable."

>>150775107
Read the first issue just now and...kinda ROCKS ASS. It's mostly dialogue, and that almost discouraged me but something about what was being said, combined with Buddy and Stinky's characters just...clicks.

Which honestly seems like the reason why this is your answer - it's actually rather grounded, and with the knowledge of late-80s/early-90s counterculture of America it works even better.

>>150790786
Animation is easier to consume. Doesn't mean the genre works better.

>>150747168 (OP)
I hope you Americans enjoy reading this comic.

>>150747208
FPBP