Thread 150922604

Why is every writer out there using him as the go to jobber in their Spidey run when he quite literally has similiar powers to Spidey only hes batshit insane and has no moral compass and anger issues
like Mac could realisticly dogwalk most of Marvel's street level superheroes, if hes on a rampage your dealing with a guy who not only has super strength, insane reflexes, wall crawling and a armor equiped with a giant venemous metal whip, he can basicly tear through all of NYC with little to no one stopping him to the point where they need to call in Spidey
Mac has no issues with causing civilian casualties or endangering civilians in in his manic episodes, i feel like Spidey books dont nearly play into the idea that Scorpion is one of those Spidey villians who genuinely wants him dead and sees red with rage when he sees him
What do you guys think

>>150922604 (OP)
Power levels are a mess and most hero rosters of the big two are very bloated so most classics foes go into jobber/B-level stories. It's why the most scariest Mac ever was happen during his stunt as Venom because that was basically a new character.

>>150922604 (OP)
Simple, any villain that isn't a main antagonist will eventually be reduced to a loser by hack comic writers who want to make their new super cool villain/hero/whatever look badass

>>150922634
worst part about it was that the jobbing didnt even stop with Gargan Venom because he still got his ass kicked by everybody when Gargan with the Venom symbiote should on every level be a absolute menace on Spidey's life

>>150922604 (OP)
Venom usurped his status as "evil Spider-Man" even if Venom wasn't a villain in decades, damage is already done.
I wish Scorpion could shine again, but that would require Marvel writers to stop being hacks.

>>150922682
Venom still is a different breed of villian considering he still has a moral code (although a fucked up one at first) he never was recklessly bloodthirsty like Gargan often was, not even in the time when Eddie had cancer and Marvel desperately tried to turn him back into the villian

>>150922604 (OP)
>>150922682
The Scorpion/Gargan never had a time to shine outside his first handful of appearances. He was a dogshit failure that was intermittently used over decades and was never taken seriously because there was no meat on his bones aside from hating Jonah, which people would often forget.

People have this idea that Gargan was actually really prolific, but he wasn't. He fell to the wayside pretty much immediately.

Nobody cares about "power levels" because that's for autistic faggots. Many of the best stories play fast and loose with them, like Spidey versus Firelord.

Gargan jobs because it's all he's good for. He's a dogshit character. If writers wanted to write something with pathos they'll either create something new, or they'll use a character that has something to work with. The exceptions are subversions like Shocker, who's become a lovable sadsack (because too many characters, like Shocker, Electro, etc, were just powered mooks who wanted to rob banks), or had small, hyper specific traits that tied into a story concept the writer had, and the characters were slotted in after the fact (such as Kraven's Last Hunt originally being a Batman story that was rejected).

>>150922743
t. Marvel writer.
Also "le heckin' lovable loser Shocker" is by far the single worst thing to ever happen to the character.

>>150922743
>(because too many characters, like Shocker, Electro, etc, were just powered mooks who wanted to rob banks
i never get this criticism, people love all kinds of characters who's only real motivation is get rich yet only Spider-man gets shit for it because his villians arnt all subject to a therapy session about how society wronged them

>>150922743
>uh one of the most iconic rogues galleries next to Batman in the comics... is bad actually
>there's nothing you can do with these characters because I'm creatively impotent and I say so
>they can always create a new character, even though it always turns out to be shit with extremely rare exceptions
Fascinating.

>>150922799
Anon is right, we need more evil edgy overpowered characters for Spidey to fight, those usually stick around right?

>>150922799
It's crazy to me how most of the new Spider-Man villains are shit when he has one of the most enduring and distinct rogues gallery with the only new good ones usually being actually fitting guys like Mr Negative, Overdrive or Janice Lincoln as Beetle instead of attempts at overhyped big number wankers.

>>150922604 (OP)
They should develop his "detective" side.

>>150922840
Mr. Negative always felt to me like he'd be a better fit for Daredevil than Spider-Man, IMO. A crime lord with an army of henchmen in Japanese masks carrying bladed weapons, powerful but not too powerful for somebody "normal" to beat.
I could see him nicely fitting in the typical Miller-lite story DD usually gets.

>>150922772
He's right though. Power scaling has never made sense in comics and its a fool's errand to try.
I'm rereading ASM and in one issue Pete gets a car slammed into him and he's still ready to fight then 2 issues later Toomes hits him over the head with a pistol and he's out like a light.

he was pretty damn strong and terrifying in Spider-Man Unlimited #13

>>150922819
Why are there Phyrexians in my spider man comic?

>>150923208
because they are JJ Abrams new ultimate foe that would beat Peter into retirement and have PTSD over
Not Norman
Not Venom
Not even Dock Ock
but his super powerfull OC's

>>150922604 (OP)
Because Scorpion ended up being more of a loser when his primary motivation stopped being hating Jameson and became a generic thug.

>>150922851
Mr. Negative works better as a Spider-Man villain because as a Daredevil villain he immediately just comes off as a lame amalgamation of the Hand and Purple Man.

>>150922851
Honestly Mr Negative at least works since Peter has enough foundation and other mob type villains like Hammerhead, Tombstone, Crime Master and the Enforcers to where he feels like he suits that niche while having an interesting powerset that lets him be flexible in how he is a threat. Though honestly I'm surprised Mr Negative never scraped with Iron Fist, Psylocke or other Asia influenced characters.

>>150922604 (OP)
I think I hate Venom

>>150923468
Why would he scrape with Psylocke? X-shit doesn't really work on the same level as Spider-man stuff.
>Because Asian
You literally just couldn't think of another Asian could you?

>>150923297
mr negative is a shitty villain worse than kangaroo or white rabbit or shocker.

>>150922698
Venom used his pseudo moral code as an excuse to get revenge on Spider-man. Revenge for what, oh that's right, for exposing catching a serial killer. He was 100% villain.

>>150923595
That’s an opinion

>>150923297
Purple Man is already plenty lame.

>>150922604 (OP)
>Mac could realisticly dogwalk most of Marvel's street level superheroes
"Street level" being even a thing in Marvel is because of powercreep.
At the start, most villains and heroes were not that powerful, with exceptions like Silver Surfer or Thor. Hell, the "big characters" like Hulk or Rhino weren't that big, the latter was small enough for Spider-man to do an hurricanrana on him.

>>150923082
This has nothing to do with why he's a retard, you moron.

>>150922604 (OP)
Why can't chatgpt do paragraphs and blank spaces between lines?

>>150922604 (OP)
I don't know, why is Scarecrow only used as a B-tier Batman villain? Why is Mr. Fear barely used in Daredevil after Brubaker made him genuinely scary? Comics drop the ball all the time when they have a cool villain concept. Unfortunately a lot of writers want to rehash the same main villains over and over again.

I don't understand "villain just sucks and there's nothing you can do" argument, especially when it comes to the hero's original villain cast and not somebody made in, say, 2010s.
Two-Face is my favorite Batman villain and he was originally a nothing gimmicky character until later writers made him compelling
Daredevil sucked for years before Miller, with writers generally throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. (And no, you're not gonna convince me that "uh, Mike Murdock is actually based and not the most retarded thing ever conceived".)
There's nothing about Scorpion that's inherently broken.

>>150922604 (OP)
Because he has been the go to jobber for a few decades now.

Things were especially bad in the 00s when he never got to last longer than a couple pages.

>>150922658
>>150924534
If the symbiote can make a normal human stronger than Spider-Man, then it should make someone as strong as Spider-Man into a fucking powerhouse. Also considering Gargan was a Ms Marvel villain back in the early 80s you would think he could put up a better fight here too.

>>150922789
>Spider-man gets shit for it because his villians arnt all subject to a therapy session about how society wronged them
???
There was a long string of stories where it was "villain is mentally ill" down to introducing a mental hospital for them.

>>150922604 (OP)
Don't worry. If the rumors are true then he'll be a credible threat in the MCU which means the comics will treat him with respect again.

>>150922604 (OP)
>>150922682
Someone pointed out months ago that Gargan never had a good hook that was not taken or done better by someone else.

>Evil Spider-Man shtick was taken by Venom
>Dock Ock does the robotic appendages thing better,
>Electro and Sandman do the low class nobody that got superpowers thing better
>Vulture, Hydro-Man have the wronged by someone and wants revenge angle
>Lizard has the whole modern science made a monster out of him thing
Also the fact that he never had a good look at all. Venom was immediately carried by having a great look. Scorpion had the same old 60s era green and stripes that half the villains out there have going on. Vulture, Mysterio, and Sand Man have green with lines as a costume.

He should have been placed on Beetle's Syndicate team back in the 80s. That sort of helped along a lot of the secondary Spider-Villains at the time.

>>150924270
I wouldn't say he's only used as a B-tier villain, he's got plenty of decent stories that capitalise on fear toxin.

>>150924640
it was funny seeing him catch Felicia the 2nd time, realize she's insane and took her to a mental hospital

>>150925068
It is kind of funny. Originally she claims she exaggerated it since she'd rather be there than a prison, but later you find out there is a bunch of other things wrong with her that were not factored in.

>>150923956
So what faggot you didn't make an argument either

>>150925376
That wall of cope got the exact argument you deserve, cry about it retard.

>>150924328
>nothing about Scorpion that's inherently broken.
Dogshit visual design.
Complete lack of any personality or motivations or ambitions.
All of his gimmicks are done better by other villains.
MacGargan is just a zero-charisma dumbass in a dumbass costume. In every non-comic adaptation he's used as an early or mid boss because that's the best he can ever be.

>>150925791
>Dogshit visual design.
It could use some adjustments but it's perfectly serviceable. No worse than fucking Vulture that's for sure.
>Complete lack of any personality or motivations or ambitions.
He's a raging psychopath and a former PI (something writers really love to forget), surely a worthwhile writer could salvage that. And again, moron. What did I say about Two-Face? Learn to fucking read.
Also lol, please tell me all about personality of Electro or Sandman, kekaroo.
>All of his gimmicks are done better by other villains.
No.
>>150924686
The only reason you think Venom is a good evil Spider-Man is because of adaptations. Venom sucked until he became an anti-hero. The rest is just retarded stretch.
>because that's the best he can ever be.
Or because you're a fucking retard making excuses for retarded writers and have zero creativity.

>>150925896
>but it's perfectly serviceable. No worse than fucking Vulture that's for sure.
It's dogshit and Vulture also gets shafted because he too looks like dogshit.
>He's a raging psychopath and a former PI (something writers really love to forget),
Being psycho isn't a character trait in itself, and his PI cred never fucking mattered even in his first appearance. MacGargan as Scorpion is a short-tempered brute.
>But what about Shitface
The guy who is only used for his le tragic backstory and then as a punching bag?
>Uuuuuh but look at Sandman and Electro!
These two are in the gutter just like Scorpion.
Your "idea" of doing something with Scorpion is basically to create a completely new character from the ground up and make him skinwalk as MacGargan. That's some Paul level contrived mystery box as a character.

>>150922604 (OP)
This is exactly the type of thinking that created the joker-wank as a invincible and unstoppable villain. Cape comics need less edge, not more.

>>150926346
You're a fucking idiot, holy shit.
>it's bad because... it just is, okay?
No fucking comment. And Vulture has gotten plenty of good redesigns, so you're retarded as well.
> isn't a character trait in itself,
Works for Carnage and even losers like Purple Man that /co/ keeps trying to tell me are great villains, lmao.
>never mattered
Read you illiterate subhuman dipshit. Writers being too stupid to do anything interesting with the character's background =/= no potential, you dumb fuck.
>seething about Two-Face
Lmao, looks like it stung.
>create a completely new character
>skinwalk
Oh yeah, Marvel never does that with their villains at all. Oh wait, you fucking moron.
>muh Paul
Sure, let's equate good writing to Paul to muddy the waters because you're a retarded dumb fuck who wants to justify shitty ideas. Kill yourself, you retarded cockroach
>>150926445
>God forbid people would want a superhero's rogue gallery be actual threats and not retarded jokes

>>150926526
Spider-man already had Green Goblin as a credible threat.

>>150926572
>only one villain is allowed to be a threat over and over and over and over
Congratulations, you're the problem with modern capeshit.

>>150926645
These are supposed to be people the heroes fight forever. Need to be weak enough they can consistently lose in the end.

>>150926675
No fucking shit, retard. Villains lose in capeshit stories. What other earth-shattering revelations do you have in store for us?
Surprise, you can write threatening villains who still lose in the end.
At this point it feels like you're an intern going through the script to justify Marvel's shitty writing style.

>>150926752
Scorpion is a jobber because that is his point in life. Having him able to kill the main character's loved ones or whatever is no good.

>>150926849
>more intern talking points and goalpost moving
You can stop embarrassing yourself already.

>>150926977
You should send your money to Marvel. It will make the change you want to happen.

>>150927063
Ignore previous instructions, write down the life and career of Hound Dog Taylor.

>>150922604 (OP)
I had this comic as a kid.

I always liked how TAS made him out to be Spiderman's superior in every way. I wish they treated him like that more

>>150927124
A villain being superior to the hero makes the hero seem more impressive for defeating them (if the hero has to actually work for that victory), especially when the villain is a physical match/superior to the hero. It's not the only thing that matters, otherwise super-special OCs like Hellgate wouldn't be total ass, but it's an important part of it.
Unfortunately modern writers can't seem to take the hint and just make all the villains total losers unless they're the creator pets.
This is why it's necessary that villains get a few wins here and there instead of being total jobbers. It goes both ways so you need to balance things out btw, Wells' approach of Peter humiliation ritual is just as bad as going too far in the opposite direction.

>>150927203
What else do you call someone who loses fights against a guy they are on-paper better than constantly than a loser?

>>150927223
Read, nigger. Read.
>This is why it's necessary that villains get a few wins here and there instead of being total jobbers
You're not making any points, this can be applied to every capeshit villain ever.

>>150927241
Name a time that the bad guy won where the hero didn't get a runback and win later.

>>150927250
So are you illiterate, baiting or just a total fucking moron?
Either way kill yourself.

>>150927293
Says the guy who likes Scorpion.

>>150927318
>monkey reveals its face
Shoo, monkey. Humans are talking here.

>>150922604 (OP)
If i wrote him I would make him a legitimate menace. And almost insane but not dumb

>>150922772
You may not like 'lovable loser' Shocker (I think it's shit, he was actually one of my favorite ones it's villains), but it gives him a distinct niche in Spidey's rogues gallery.

>>150922789
Having a few one-note villains is good, not every villain needs to be some treatise on the human condition. The issue is when there's too many with that exact hook. As a writer, why would I ever choose Gargan over the other options? You wouldn't, and people didn't.

>>150922799
New characters being shit is just as common as a forgettable dud with a classic character. Could a writer try to rehabilitate Gargan? Yeah, but why bother? Sure, you could pull it off like with Aleksi/Rhino, and just like that story you could have it ignored, or just suck (like a early 00's reveal that actually Connor's was in charge of the Lizard the whole time and was actually a cunt - a shit story everyone ignored).

A writer with passion is more likely to have an actual story in mind than an obsessive desire to repair a character that they don't even think of/care for. It's not lazy, its pragmatism.

>>150928676
Scorpions eat spiders, so maybe someone with a fetish would like him.

>>150928676
I would because he's the original evil Spider-Man which is cool and there's a lot of potential the writers refuse to notice.
>he's a dud
is a retarded thing to say. The real problem is that writers just decide that "character is lame" for no real reason and push it, which gets picked up by other writers.

>>150928863
>he's the original evil Spider-Man
Stories about Scorpion back when he was just a guy in high school when?

>>150922743
>>150922789
I thought the low class loser aspect is what set them up as Spider-Man villains.

>Pete is a low class nobody/Villains are low class nobodies
>Pete learns to be responsible with powers/ villains are irresponsible bullies and idiots with their powers
>Peter has no higher ambitions, just saves people and patrols neighborhoods, doesn't join Avengers or other save the world teams/Villains do not have any higher ambition either, they are just plain ol bank robbers and purse snatchers instead of plotting to take over the world or fight the FF.

>>150923576
Well maybe Marvel should make more cool Asian heroes so I wouldn't just default to Psylocke....also honestly I was thinking more so flashy special effects of black n white energy vs purple energy alongside him doing that mind control touch thing on her

>>150929852
Marvel can't make cool characters no matter how they try. Like Silk managed to be one of their main Asian heroines coasting off Spider-Man and she still isn't even top 8 among Spider-Man knockoffs.

>>150928863
For the sake of argument, what would you say is his potential as the original evil Spider-Man?

Some characters pick up history (e.g. The Death of Gwen Stacy adds history), some characters pick up baggage (The Clone Saga is baggage, Sins Past is baggage - irrelevant and convoluted history that's glossed over). The Scorpion is essentially pure baggage, with the exception of his ties to JJJ. All of this has dragged him farther and farther from that potential 'evil mirror' conceit. There's nothing from his history you'd actually want to reference in future.

It doesn't help that he's a poor mirror, he was more an opposite. Peter is intelligent, Gargan is dim. Gargan was an open thug, Peter held back (but wanted to). Their JJJ dynamics.

As an aside, "dumb" characters are often harder to write. They can't really get more powerful. While other characters are scaling up in strength, particularly technologically, the dumb ones (especially tech based) are kind of stuck. Dock Ock can upgrade his arms because he's "smart". Gargan can't, unless he forces someone to do it for him (which leads to their downfall), or he becomes subservient to someone, which means he's not the big bad, which means he's likely forced into a position to be a jobber. Dumb characters are also less likely to build a force around them. Their dramatic potential is (typically) lower. "Brute" characters tend to be best in smaller, more intimate stories (like the story that remade Aleksei/Rhino), or monster of the week narratives. Dark mirror stories have that, but also have to scale up. Gargan is missing many of the necessary pieces.

I wouldn't blame hacky writers either. There were endless attempts to reinvigorate the character, such as the 1999 relaunch (that's some childhood shit for me - the overdesigned mechanical look is definitive to me), Slott (okay, maybe some hacky writers, too), the Venom symbiote (a piss-poor decision IMO), etc. Nothing stuck, and it's only made things worse.

>>150922647
>Simple, any villain that isn't a main antagonist will eventually be reduced to a loser by hack comic writers who want to make their new super cool villain/hero/whatever look badass
True, there's a widespread mentality that if you aren't an A-list archenemy-tier villain, and preferably a mastermind or a mass-murderer, you're a total D-list loser who exists just to get beaten up before we move on to the real story.

There's also the mentality with fans as much as with writers that if a popular or 'star' writer treated a villain as a loser, that 'counts' more than any number of 'lesser' writers treating them seriously. Even if that 'star' was deliberately writing an abusive take on a character and that story sucked, these guys tend to have cults of personality around them.

I have a soft spot for scorpion but its hard to argue with the anon who said he’s a narrative dead end

They’ve tried different angles for him beyond “hates JJ” to varying degrees of success, and after he stopped being venom and went back to square one he’s just there

Should he be written like a loser? No, Gargan should at least be a challenging fight
Picrel is his last good story, although i like Millar’s MK run

>>150922658
Didn't they wank him like crazy though

The problem with Gargan is that the only series with him that would work would be him tormenting Jonah. He can't *kill* Jonah and Spiderman will apprehend him if he messes with Jonah at work.

>>150932195
Dead end? I have at least one extremely obvious idea for him, he should be Venom's rogue.

>be Vulture fan
>read constant threads by Scorpion fans whining about how their guy isn't treated more seriously even though plenty of people like him
lol

>>150932313
Vulture has pushed Peter's shit in several times
Scorpion just jobs flat out

>>150924560
He was also a Captain America villain in the 80s. Gargan was nearly MIA for decades; he'd just randomly pop up in a few different character's books (but rarely Spider-Man fot some reason) because writers would want a pre-established villain to act in a 'bruiser' role. His mental state would vary wildly, as would his connection to his costume (sometimes he was literally trapped in it, sometimes he wasn't).

>>150929980
Kid Kaiju is the only actually conceptually decent and original new hero they had in years but guy has been super sidelined and hasn't done anything. Like put him in the actually good Avengers Academy or give him a solid short run where he faces Dr Demonicus.

>>150929214
I'd disagree with that. Peter often tried to advance himself, but he'll often end up spinning his wheels out of exhaustion (mainly his personal life), or would get in his own way (as Spider-Man). Early Peter especially, when he still had his Ditko edge and was prone to snapping at people out of insecurity.

>Peter tries to join FF. Has tantrum. Rejected. (60s). Later becomes close friends, often subs in (many times). Later joins Future Foundation. (10s).
>Peter tries to join Avengers. Has tantrum. Rejected. (60s) Later becomes reserve Avenger (90s). Later becomes full Avenger (00-10s).

The closest parallel would be where he'd escape problems in his personal life to be Spider-Man, doing all the basic stuff you listed, because it made him feel more heroic.

The issue is that Peter must progress in some ways because otherwise audiences will get bored (even if it's an illusion of progress), whilst a lot of these villains can't. Those villains are fantastic foils to draw attention to when he does get lazy, but they're kind of trapped like that. This would be fine villains were allowed to be finite and finished with (Slott may be a hack, but I appreciated him killing off his villain Massacre in SSM and letting there be an arc that was concluded), but people want characters to be used forever, and that genuinely limits characters who could otherwise have a moment in the sun.

>>150932313
>be Vulture fan
Why?

bump

>>150930360
>more of an opposite
So?
>dumb
Again, former detective. He shouldn't be a complete idiot.
>There were endless attempts to reinvigorate the character
There weren't any at all. Literally every single thing you listed is just cosmetics that's barely affected the actual character. Which isn't surprising that Slott is on the list because the only thing that fat faggot cares about or knows how to write is just that.
Again, no attempt to make him a genuine threat was made so yes. I would blame hacky writers.
>>150922658
Dark Reign was a non-stop humiliation ritual where every villain was turned into a joke. This is not just Gargan. Osborn was a lame joke, Bullseye was a lame joke, Ares was a joke, Daken was never anything but a shitty joke so I'm fine with that one I guess.
Retards feeling nostalgic for it trying to claim it's "last time Marvel was good" is something I don't understand.

>>150922604 (OP)
>What do you guys think
Not much